#and theres all this beef!! | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

sludgekludge · 28 days ago

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can you give us the rundown on your vaggie/lute thing? i dont think you ever ended up posted it but ive always been curious

i did Not post it bc the post i wrote out made me sound like an insane person. moreso. than usual. this also unfortunately made me sound like an insane person.

this is all very much personal opinion over overt critique i think. though i would still call adam/lute a Bad choice, narrative wise.

the gist is i think vaggie/lute have infinitely more interesting potential than adam/lute (which is the direction you can tell it's going from day 1) not even in a 'aww i like tis ship!' sense just in a. idk story sense.

if lute/vaggie were some kind of weird toxic yuri, vaggie being left behind as violently as she was and lute's pure vitriol towards her makes more sense imo? as is it just makes lute feel cartoonishly evil. why would she even do that, over adam? does she even have that authority? why would she even be following vaggie in the first place...is she really the type who'd spare someone that makes (what she perceives to be) an unforgiveable decision? like...really, would she let vaggie live.

primarily what comes to mind i guess is that i think there was a lot of interesting (and imo thematically relevant) potential for that kind of relationship between the two of them. vaggie being someone who was forced out of an abusive poisonous environment, and then finding growth and love amongst the people she had been manipulated to look down upon is already kind of canon i guess but i think lute, with the context of vaggie being some kind of potential romantic interest of some kind, having to come down and witness that this person she has such history with is not only happier, but happier with someone who isn't lute when she's in what lute perceives to be the worst possible position. because i'd imagine lute cannot imagine anything lower than being in hell. i'm sure she would perceive sparing a demon as a personal betrayal, if a loved one did it. anyway would that not be compelling. i don't think lute would regulate those feelings well lol. esp if we want to tack on 'her bestie was literally permamurdered to death and vaggie is actively affiliated with the side that did it' like. come on. right. do you understand. grabbing you. do you understand-

i guess ultimately i find it wasted potential to not set up something between the much more emotionally charged dynamic between lute and vaggie (esp as their current animosity feels kind of meaningless to me. why is lute so cartoonishly evil. what was their relationship before vaggie got goofed) over some kind of one sided pining between a confident woman like lute and a man who was never even very nice to her

tl;dr: vaggie and lute being two confident strong fighters and lute being drawn to that only to reject her vehemently when vaggie shows compassion and then grapple with lingering feelings watching her almost-ex become happier without her would be crazy yuri and yet

#ask #im putting this under a readmore if its going in the tag its embarrassing.#hazbin hotel critical #sorry if this is word salad im not telling you what time it is other than 'its early' in the 'i havent slept yet' kind of way #adams own interactions with vaggie feel very 'schoolyard bully' while lute feels like theres something they arent telling us #and i guess i would like it if there Was something there. bc 'oh lutes just evil' is lame.#literally this wall of text is so unecessary i just think 'lute and vaggie have more interesting potential' thats all i needed to SAY!!#also like. if niffty killed adam would lute's beef not be majorly with killing niffty. the joke character.#if she blamed everythign on vaggie bc she already had complicated feelings on vaggie okkk im being quiet now actually #would you believe me if i said im not even a shippy person i dont care about this emotionally i just #think it would've been interesting.

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ssphiree · 2 months ago

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not to dsmp post in the year 2025 but ive been sitting on this take for 4 years and i have to get it out of my system. i never joined the fandom online back then when it was all happening bc of how wild the community could be sometimes but ive been sitting on this for SO long n its been long enough i think

c!ranboo was one of my absolute favourites and i loved him SO much but heavily disagreed with one thing from him

on doomsday (one of the doomsdays bc there were like 3 or something) he had that moment where he ended up yelling at everyone over taking 'sides' and why they all had to be fighting & why couldnt we all just be neutral and peaceful instead of splitting into separate distinct opposing teams etc etc etc and i can almost kind of see how hed have a point - however there are issues with that standpoint SUCH AS -

lets look at the two sides: on one you have the strongest most skilled people decked out head to toe in the most absolute top of the chain gear - c!dream, c!techno & c!phil, whose aim is to absolutely and completely decimate l'manberg with their withers and obsidian bomb dispenser they have spanning across the entirety of the whole place

on the other side you have the people who have nothing. those were just kids trying to keep their homes, and they had nothing to fight with after the other side raided all their gear and got rid of it all. they fought tooth and nail to keep their homes time and time again with the odds stacked higher and higher against them each time

imo l'manberg had 3 main people involved that really contributed to its downfall, & only one was there on doomsday - c!dream. the other two were c!wilbur & c!schlatt. they were the big 3 involved in the l'manberg politics who were adults & not children following orders/defending themselves (which is why i dont include c!tommy/c!tubbo etc in that list). they were the corrupt power hungry quote unquote "politicians" (for lack of a better word) that projected all their issues onto everyone else and dragged them all into it

(if you squint you could technically include c!eret in that list, but imo in reality they were really only just another pawn for c!dreams big game of chess as a way to pitt the opposition against each other & gain power over them, c!eret never really had actual power/rule over anyone or anything they just lived in a castle and took c!dreams word for it. also they redeemed themselves and rejoined the freedom side anyway)

lets start with c!wilbur - he was very manipulative, he liked having control & he craved power but there wasnt really an opportunity for it, so he built the van and attempted to start a potion 'empire' by seizing control over a commonly used item (brewing stands) to gain leverage over the more powerful players. he dragged other vulnerable & generally powerless people (yknow, like children) into it & used them as his building blocks to the top. c!tommy is the biggest victim of this from him. once the potion empire thing stopped working out thats when he shifted the narrative to the freedom-fighting-rebellious nation we came to know l'manberg for. he sparked that (he sparked it & the others kept it alive because they really believed in it and really believed in him) and at first i think he to an extent genuinely did believe in it and really did want freedom for him and his people with little to no other conscious intentions, but the subconscious want for power was always there and bubbled to the surface as he spiralled really far into corruption in the pogtopia arc (what started as "a special place where men can go and emancipate the brutality and the tyranny of their rulers" became "IF I CANT HAVE L'MANBERG NO ONE CAN PHIL")

then c!dream - even from before l'manberg he was fighting c!tommy over his music discs, & i guess that just cemented c!tommy as the no1 enemy in his brain for the rest of time even though c!tommy was really just a loud kid trying to get by. he was also power hungry and wanted to keep all the power he had so he felt threatened by the formation of l'manberg. other less powerful people taking some level of control & separating themselves from him startled him, especially with c!tommy involved in the opposition. he knew he was the most powerful on the server & didnt want anyone else to forget that so he consistently used fear and force to remind the others how much stronger he was than them, the main victims being l'manberg and its citizens as they were the first and biggest group to rebel against him (and the group with c!tommy in it but thats neither here nor there). he struggled to accept the idea of people having some kind of autonomy to lead a life separate from the server he ruled over (he even said blatantly he would never think of l'manberg as free, only that he would let them delusionally believe they were free in his discussion with c!tommy)

and c!schlatt was just your run of the mill big bad in your face power hungry corrupt politician. he wasnt super manipulative or anything similar to the other two, he was just an evil dude that, again, was power hungry and corrupt like c!wilbur and c!dream. he dragged others into it by using c!quackity to gain leverage in the election via votes, and by keeping the citizens of l'manberg manberg under his crazy authoritarian control and he did that pretty much mostly out of enjoyment and greed. he liked that he intimidated the people around him and frequently used that to his advantage because it amused him

it was those 3 that created the us vs them dynamic & pitted everyone else against each other by creating 'sides' because they were the ones who wanted the power, and they were the ones who dragged everyone else into their conflicts. they were greedy and self centred and made that everyones problem

ones like c!techno & c!phil arent included in that list because they were never greedy for power over other people, they were just people who happened to be powerful. they mostly just kept to themselves in their little cottages but because of the perceived rivalry that was created by the Big 3 and then projected onto everyone else, they declared l'manberg to be the problem. even though c!schlatt and c!wilbur were out of the picture by that point, their actions had left the repuatation of l'manberg tainted from the perspective of those outwith the country itself, whereas the people left behind in it (like c!tommy & c!tubbo etc etc) just saw it as their home, just the place that they lived in and had built their lives. the others outside had grown to view l'manberg as the cause for all the servers problems because of the way it separated itself from the rest of the server and was another thing, and because of the actions of the corrupted leaders itd began with (and also - l'manberg was really the only place for people to fight for power over with the political system it had set up, no one really ever challenged c!dreams position of power over the rest of the server, only within l'manberg at least until that final disc battle)

it was very much a punch up vs punch down dynamic that people like c!techno and c!phil and even c!ranboo couldnt really see, because they all lived comfortably with powerful top of the chain gear far away from all the main conflict, and none of them were actually present for the beginnings of the conflict. none of them were present to witness the disc war or the formation of l'manberg, they were never there to hear c!dream tell c!tommy that hed never see them as free from him as c!tommy handed him the disc. they joined at the height of it all where the two "sides" were already very distinct and at war with each other

c!techno joined at the point of c!schlatt being in charge of l'manberg and at that point he was helping the underdogs because in that moment c!tommy and c!wilbur asked for his help and shared his goals - to overthrow a tyrannical corrupt government. then c!wilbur, knowing full well he was right about to blow up the country within the next few minutes, shoveled all the power and responsibility of the country over onto a kid (c!tommy, who then immediately handed it back to him & then he immediately handed it over to c!tubbo). by the time c!phil joined c!tubbo was already president (& had only been for like five minutes) and c!wilbur was in the midst of blowing up the country (note - c!wilbur had the presidency and had l'manberg under his rule again, he chose to hand it off to c!tubbo and then carry out his plan to blow it up while telling c!phil "if i cant have this no one can")

c!techno was never there to see the way l'manberg itself began as a challenge to a tyrannical rule (because although c!wilbur was manipulative and corrupt and power hungry, ultimately he did have a leg to stand on with his methods which is why it worked so well for him and why he was so easily able to paint that picture of oppression - the canvas was already sketched and lined) and continued to exist as a rebellion against an even worse system than itself. at that point c!wilbur was still seen as the 'good guy' who just wanted freedom for his nation from the tyrannical authoritarian rule of c!dream, so c!schlatt suddenly coming into power was a sharp left turn government wise, and c!techno just joined right at that sharp left turn moment where the big bad evil government had just came in and made some significant differences. differences not only in the economic system of l'manberg but also tainting the core values that once held the citizens of it so high and hopeful against corruption. so c!techno never saw that rebellious freedom fighting nation that l'manberg started off as and was supposed to always be, he only saw it as the nation with the corrupt government

c!phil was in a similar situation, he also never saw it as that rebellious freedom fighting nation and only saw the damage that the power hungry corrupt people had done to it. he joined right at the crucial moment and only saw the conflict and damage surrounding the country of l'manberg. because of this he ended up adopting the perception that the place itself was the problem if it was causing this many issues this severe. he failed to notice that after c!wilbur and c!schlatt were both out of the picture the problems between l'manberg specifically and the rest of the server were only being revived on c!dreams end, and c!tubbo as the new leader of l'manberg did not start conflicts (although the butchers army is a whooole other ballgame but thats not what this post is about - that was mainly spearheaded by c!quackity- who is again a whooooole other post)

if c!tommy hadnt declined the presidency then c!dream wouldve been slightly more justified in having a go at l'manberg as a whole for the whole burning-down-c!georges-house-thing, but ultimately it seemed more like he just wanted to flex his power over them even more. just as another reminder he could tear them down any moment he wanted to without a single second thought- he used it as A. another opportunity to keep the citizens of l'manberg fearful of him (almost like a kind of "remember whos really in charge here" type deal - again think back to he & c!tommys original negotiations of freedom in the og revolution) and B. another opportunity to punch down on c!tommy specifically (exile arc is another whooooole other post), he was given an inch and he took a mile. c!tommy explicitly stated that the reason he did not take the presidency was specifically so that any business/issues with c!dream would stay exclusively between him and c!dream without dragging the rest of l'manberg into it but c!dream ignored that entirely

c!ranboo joined right at that moment, of c!dream enforcing his power over l'manberg, but he saw c!tommy technically strike first with burning down c!georges house. he didnt see all the previous strikes c!dream had made on c!tommy & l'manberg. he just saw c!tommy make a move and then saw c!dream make a move back, therefore creating a back and forth rivalry dynamic which, in his eyes, could easily just cease if theyd stop pitting against each other and lived peacefully. he doesnt seem to notice just quite how corrupt and power hungry c!dream really is especially when it comes to c!tommy and l'manberg, he only notices different people teaming up to fight against each other & not a case of oppressed vs oppressor. c!ranboo, like c!phil and c!techno has never really had too much of an issue with getting a hold of good armour and weapons and equipment, and hasnt really had anyone like c!dream stand in his way to take everything from him the way everyone in l'manberg has. c!ranboo has had issues with c!dream and has been used by him (another whooooole separate post), but he seemed to focus slightly less on the 'c!dream using any tactic available to him to enforce his power on everyone' side of things and moreso the 'what is wrong with me i need to figure out why this is possible for him to do this to me' side of things

theyve all heard about all the wars and conflicts etc from before they all joined, but they struggled to fully really empathise and actually see it from the others perspectives. this is why c!ranboo was wrong in his view on 'taking sides' on doomsday

#that ended up a wayyyy longer ramble than i initially intended #literally never posted ab the dsmp when it was all happening bc of how crazy people were ab it online both in favour of and against #but ive been sitting on this take for sooooo fuckign long #gotta just flush this outta my system its been bugging me for YEARS #there is SO much to go through and SO many other things to analyse with that server but thisll do for now #note - all this only applies to pre doomsday & doomsday!! everything after that (prison era etc) is not included!!#this is also!! just my opinion if u have a dif take on it theres no beef here :]#dsmp #dream smp #dsmp lore

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