#and then turn around and cheerfully ask a robot to build me a sandcastle out of stolen fucking labor

[nientedal]

I appreciate the input, and I understand where you're coming from and already agree with some of what you're saying! CommonCrawl's sets exist for public use for exactly the kind of analysis you describe, this is a good thing, yes. Fully agree with you there and have never disagreed with that. The part where I get lost is...correct me if I'm wrong, but to your way of thinking, the datasets are vast enough to dilute any chance of regurgitated phrases or direct plagiarism, so no harm, no foul? Nobody's livelihood is threatened, therefore all is well?

Assuming that is more or less where you're coming from...again, I hear you, but I have trouble engaging with that stance because it doesn't actually address my problem. I'm not worried about regurgitation. My problem is not with the output at all.

My problem is with scraped data being used for massive profit on a massive scale with no permission or compensation. Full stop, that is where "is this ethical" begins and ends for me. Is it ethical to use someone else's work to generate billions-- not an exaggeration-- of dollars of profit? No. What if it's ten million "someone else"s, is it ethical then? No. What if it's JSTOR developing their own tool, relying on the tool that uses the unpaid work of ten million someone elses-- is that ethical? No. Can that be ethical? No. It can be used to do good things, but it cannot be used ethically; these statements are not mutually exclusive.

From where I'm sitting, the size of the dataset or dilution of any one piece in relation to the whole is not relevant except to indicate how many people have been exploited to develop these tools. I used sand as my analogy for a reason-- it's easy to look at the sandbox of generative AI and say, "no single grain meaningfully influenced the building of that castle. The amount any particular grain contributed to the whole is minimal." No one is hurt when the robot builds a sand castle, so who cares about the individual grains?

Me. I do. The castle could not exist without those individual grains, every single one of which took a human person some amount of time to make (time, and education, and practice, and labor, and thought, and energy; we're talking hours and days and years of work) and every single one of which is being used to generate enormous profit without permission or compensation.

That's my problem. You may not agree that this is a reasonable concern, and that's okay! We'll agree to disagree.

I'll address fair use under the cut, because I think I may not have been super clear on what I meant about that, and trying to explain it got a little long. It doesn't change anything up here, though, so if you wanna skip it that's totally cool. (And yes, let's assume we're talking exclusively about text-based stuff lol, image stuff is a topic for another post. My stance is the same, though.) Anyway, "fair use" in this context refers to a legal doctrine, not a moral judgment.

When I say there are fair use problems with generative AI, I mean that from a legal perspective. You may already have known that, I don't know-- you disagree that there are problems under fair use, but...your post doesn't really discuss fair use at all? Legally? You do sort of touch on one of the factors, the fourth one, and to be clear, it's a solid argument. Another argument would be that use of copyrighted materials in developing and training generative AI is transformative. That's up for debate, but it is an argument I've seen and I understand the reasoning behind it. I also understand why we wouldn't want it to fall under scrutiny.

But there are also arguments against fair use here, enough that several copyright lawsuits to that effect have already been brought against Microsoft and OpenAI and I think a couple of other corporations. (Disclaimer-- I'm an accountant, not a lawyer. What I'm saying is effectively recapping what I've read previously from actual lawyers, and I'm googling as I go to make sure I am not flat-out wrong on the face of this, lol.)

In evaluating a claim under the fair use doctrine, courts typically look at four factors:

Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is for profit,

Nature of the copyrighted work,

Amount and substantiality of the copyrighted work as a whole, and

Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Currently, I believe the defense of AI (and your stance, I think?) has mostly been riding on that last one. No chance of plagiarism means no effect on the market value of the original works! They're diluted beyond recognition! That's points in AI's favor.

But the third point up there is basically asking, "how much of the copyrighted material was used to create the work claimed to be protected under fair use?" and this one is the reason fanartists are, by and large, able to make some money on their fanworks while fanauthors really are not. A drawing is a still image, so it "uses" only small pieces of the original work overall in its creation; a written story, on the other hand, can be (and has been) argued to have "used" a significant portion of the original work. If I paint fanart of something for...idk, Supernatural or some other long-running show and sell it, well, I didn't use a substantial amount of the show to create the art. It's a still image; in context of the show it'd be a single frame among millions. But if I write a 500,000 word fanfic that draws on multiple characters and events and plot points from multiple seasons...that's a lot more of the source material! If I sell that, I'm way more likely to get sued than if I painted something.

So-- amount of source material used in comparison to the whole of the source material and profit generated are both problems under fair use. Here again is core of my argument as to why the current setup is inherently, inescapably unethical.

When it comes to data scraping, the original works in their entirety have been used. And they are being used to generate enormous profit. Microsoft gave ten billion dollars to OpenAI last year, that is not insignificant. Profit and substantiality are problems under the fair use doctrine, and-- again-- enough lawyers have agreed with that statement to take multiple cases to court over this. So far, the courts have not ruled in their favor and I can see why, but my point is simply that this is a fair use issue! We don't have to agree one way or the other on what bits are more or less important-- I'm just explaining why I said what I did and why I do stand by it. Yes, there are arguments to be made in either direction, but if you are familiar with fair use, you will see issues here.

But ultimately, fair use isn't really part of my argument. More just an aside. Maybe generative AI is perfectly defensible on all counts under fair use and I've just got my head up my ass, it's whatever. I'm interested to see how the various cases play out. Either way, even if generative AI is 100% defensible under the fair use doctrine, I do not agree that its use in its current setup is ethical.

If you've made it this far, kudos, and thank you for listening. Again, I absolutely do see your point, and I'm sorry, but I disagree. Theft for profit cannot be diluted to a point where it can be called ethical.

Why is JSTOR using AI? AI is deeply environmentally harmful and steals from creatives and academics.

Thanks for your question. We recognize the potential harm that AI can pose to the environment, creatives, and academics. We also recognize that AI tools, beyond our own, are emerging at a rapid rate inside and outside of academia.

We're committed to leveraging AI responsibly and ethically, ensuring it enhances, rather than replaces, human effort in research and education. Our use of AI aims to provide credible, scholarly support to our users, helping them engage more effectively with complex content. At this point, our tool isn't designed to rework content belonging to creatives and academics. It's designed to allow researchers to ask direct questions and deepen their understanding of complex texts.

Our approach here is a cautious one, mindful of ethical and environmental concerns, and we're dedicated to ongoing dialogue with our community to ensure our AI initiatives align with our core values and the needs of our users. Engagement and insight from the community, positive or negative, helps us learn how we might improve our approach. In this way, we hope to lead by example for responsible AI use.

For more details, please see our Generative AI FAQ.

[askthebunker]

The Beach Episode

“That’s just about everything,” Gabriel said, putting his hands on his hips as he looked out at the beach that had never been discovered by anyone before. He’d set up a few umbrellas as well as a picnic table with Sam earlier in the day and now they were just waiting on the others to arrive.

“It looks great, Gabe,” Sam smiled weakly before taking a deep breath, “I want everything to be perfect for Jack today, y’know?”

“No pressure, right?” Gabriel winked at him.

“You know what I mean,” Sam sighed, “It’s just...things have been weird, with everything happening. I want to make things up to Jack.”

“That’s not your job, Samoose,” Gabriel gave him a sympathetic smile, “You’re not the one who has the most making up to do.”

“He’s trying,” Sam explained, “That’s part of today, he’s going to try, he’s not going to drink, and he’s going to have a good time. We’re all going to have a good time.”

“Whatever you say,” Gabriel said, grabbing his hand and kissing it, “Let’s just...not get our hopes too high, okay? I know this is what you want, but all of us in one place…” he trailed off, “Hasn’t worked out the best in the past.”

“Never hurts to try,” Sam shrugged.

Gabriel just continued to smile sympathetically at him until the familiar sound of wings came through the air.

“Sam! Uncle Gabriel! Hello!” Jack said cheerfully.

When Sam looked up, Jack was standing with Michael, Adam, and Raphael, wearing a pair of plastic sunglasses that had neon green rims.

“We brought pie,” Raphael offered after a beat of silence, awkwardly holding out the circular pan, “Adam made it from items he grew in his garden. Why are you all so irritating? I like him just fine.”

Sam gave them a tight smile, taking the pan, “Thanks, guys,” he turned his attention to Jack, ignoring the comment, “How’s it going, Jack?”

“Good,” Jack grinned, “I am starting school this Fall, we all decided. I am very excited.”

“That’s...that’s great,” Sam smiled at him, “As long as everything goes according to plan…”

“Jack wants to go to school, so he’s going,” Adam said simply, “Regardless of what happens.”

Sam took a deep breath and gave him a tight smile, “Of course, whatever Jack wants.”

“Where are the others?” Adam changed the subject.

“You guys are the first ones here,” Sam shrugged, “Gabe and I came here to set up early since the place was essentially never discovered by humanity. We cleaned it up a bit.”

“Thanks for that,” Adam said simply, putting down the food as well as a bag, “Jack, make sure you put on sunscreen again soon, please.”

Jack nodded and sat down in the sand, grabbing Michael’s arm and pulling him down with him, “I’m going to teach Uncle Michael how to build a sandcastle.”

“Sounds great, bud,” Adam said simply, sitting down at the picnic table beside Raphael.

“Go talk to him,” Gabriel told Sam quietly, “Trust me, Raph isn’t much of a conversation starter, they’re just gonna sit there in silence.”

“There’s not much to talk about,” Sam swallowed.

“Never hurts to try,” Gabriel gave him a weak smirk, repeating his earlier words.

Sam just sighed again, smiling slightly at him before walking over.

Jack glanced up as Sam walked over to Adam and bumped Michael slightly.

Michael glanced up as well and cleared his throat, “Raphael, would you like to join us?”

The archangel squinted in confusion, “Why?”

“Because we need to spend time with Jack,” Michael said simply, “And I am asking you to.”

Raphael simply sighed and they walked over, sitting down in the sand and wrinkling their nose as they did, “I do not enjoy this,” they said immediately.

Sam sat down across from Adam, “Hey,” he said awkwardly, “How have...things been? We haven’t seen you since we came over to check out the house.”

“Fine,” Adam said, “I have a job at an antique shop in town. Jack wants to sell some of the stuff we grow in our garden, so Michael is helping him build a little stand.”

Sam nodded slowly, “Uh...so, there’s a thing going around...that you and Michael are expecting a kid?”

“Yes,” Adam deadpanned, “Is that going to be a problem?”

“What? No,” Sam said quickly, “I mean, we’d like to know if we’re gonna be uncles, y’know? We’re happy for you.”

“I’m sure you are,” Adam sighed, looking down at his phone and playing with it absentmindedly, despite there definitely not being any signal on the beach they were on.

“We’ll keep you and your kid safe from all of this,” Sam told him firmly.

“I don’t need you to,” Adam told him, “I genuinely don’t. I can take care of myself and even if I couldn’t, Michael is the first ever archangel. He’s powerful. I don’t need you to protect my child when we’re both very capable. I definitely don’t need Dean around my kid either.”

“Dean isn’t a bad guy, Adam,” Sam sighed, “We both made mistakes with Jack, we’re dealing with that and trying to make up for it.”

“You went along with it because he’s your big brother and he’s all you’ve ever known as a caretaker,” Adam snapped, “It’s definitely not healthy, but I understand you. Dean has treated Jack like shit since the beginning.”

“Don’t...do that. Don’t psychoanalyze us like you’re…” Sam trailed off, “Act human, dude. You’re not a robot.”

“I’m not though,” Adam sighed, “Sam...I spent over a thousand years with Michael and Lucifer. Things happen. I’m not human anymore. I don’t...one hundred percent know what I am, but it’s not human. I’m not saying I’m above you, I’m just saying...things get put into perspective when you have that long to think. The idea of petty drama and dealing with human bullshit is just nothing to me anymore.”

Sam watched him curiously, not sure what to say.

“I spent over a thousand years in Hell, Sam,” Adam sighed, “I don’t know what you want from me. I can’t bring myself to care about things that don’t matter to me anymore. Jack is my nephew, he was in a bad situation because of Dean, and now he’s not. Jack doesn’t have to forgive you guys, just like I don’t have to forgive any of you for letting me rot in Hell for all that time,” he stood up, “I came here today to spend time with my nephew, not debate my emotions with you.”

What emotions? Sam wanted to say, but stopped himself.

Dean probably wouldn’t have been so kind.

“I guess you were right though...we wanted to take Jack away from you, we just didn’t know it at the time,” Adam said simply before walking over and sitting down with the archangels and Jack in the sand.

“I’m guessing that didn’t go well?” Gabriel asked, walking over and sitting down beside him.

“Does it ever with him?” Sam mumbled.

“No, but if your boyfriend was an extreme optimist, would you tell him that?” Gabriel asked.

Before Sam could say anything else, the others appeared.

“This is awesome,” Charlie grinned, “We’re, like, the first people ever to be here, right?”

“That’s true,” Gabriel said, “Completely undiscovered by humanity; cool, right?”

“Definitely,” Kevin smiled.

“Sixty five percent of earth is still undiscovered by humanity, it’s not surprising,” Samandriel deadpanned.

Kevin just rolled his eyes, “C’mon, man, let’s get in the water.”

“Why?” Samandriel looked confused as he was drug over to the shoreline.

“Socially inept angels plus one beach day,” Dean walked over to Sam and Gabriel, “Entertaining, at least,” he said, looking confused when he saw the two archangels attempting to build a sandcastle with Jack and Adam’s help. He gestured to them, making Sam laugh.

“So,” Gabriel grinned as Benny, Balthazar, and Castiel all sat down with them, “Are we going to start a betting pool on how long it’ll take Heaven’s Most Adorable Angel and Heaven’s Most Adorable Prophet to get together?”

“Well, unless they’re like Charlie and refuse to make a move, probably soon- OW!” Dean groaned when Charlie threw a frisbee at the back of his head, “Hey!”

“Zip it,” Charlie told him immediately, “And come play frisbee with us.”

“I want to play!” Jack got up quickly.

Michael and Raphael sighed in relief, getting up from the sand almost in-sync and dusting themselves off, making Adam laugh.

Dean hesitated when Jack ran over and Sam shoved him lightly.

“Go,” the younger Winchester mumbled, giving him a look.

Dean sighed and grabbed the frisbee from where it landed beside him, rubbing the back of his head, “Nice aim,” he said, going to throw it back just as hard, but Charlie caught it with a smirk.

“Nice try,” Charlie said, tossing the frisbee gently to Jack, who fumbled to catch it.

…

“I don’t see the point,” Samandriel mumbled, “I thought we were busy fighting Father.”

“We are,” Kevin explained, “But...it’s important for us to relax too, especially Jack, he’s just a kid.”

Samandriel nodded slowly, looking down at his vessel’s feet in the water, tilting his head, “I find this very enjoyable, I’m surprised.”

“Yeah, free will does that to you,” Kevin laughed, reaching down and picking up a seashell, “Here...a souvenir for your first beach day.”

Samandriel took the shell, looking down at it in the palm of his hand, a small smile on his face.

…

“Yeah, I give it a week,” Gabriel smirked, looking over at Kevin and Samandriel, “Charlie, you need to catch up- OW!” he groaned when she threw the frisbee again.

“That didn’t even hurt you, don’t be a baby,” Balthazar snorted as Gabriel threw the frisbee back to the group.

“So,” Gabriel said, looking at Cas and Balthazar, “How’s it going with you two lovebirds?”

Cas glared at him, “I have explained this many times, we are not romantically involved. Platonic love is extremely valid.”

“You’ve been hanging around Adam too much,” Gabriel rolled his eyes.

Cas narrowed his eyes at him.

“Dude, you need to put on sunscreen,” Sam called to Dean.

Dean rolled his eyes, “I’ll be fine.”

Sam scoffed, “Whatever, your funeral, man.”

…

“Would you like to go for a walk?” Jack asked Dean once he tossed the frisbee to Dorothy.

Dean stared at him, “You sure that’s a good idea, kid?”

“I don’t need permission to go for a walk with a member of my family,” Jack said bluntly, “Or anything for that matter. I just need to let them know that we’re going, if you want to go.”

Dean nodded slowly, not sure what to say.

Jack walked over to where Adam and Michael were with Raphael and talked to them briefly. He turned back around and quickly walked over to Dean, “C’mon, I want to explore this place.”

Dean followed him, shock written all over his face.

“This is very cool,” Jack said casually as they walked through the woods, “I wonder if we’ll find a snake…” he trailed off, leaning down to grab some of the flowers. 

Dean sighed, “Jack,” he cleared his throat, “Hey, buddy, we gotta talk eventually.”

“I am aware,” Jack sighed, standing back up and messing with the flowers he’d picked absentmindedly, refusing to make eye contact with him.

“There isn’t...a single excuse good enough for how I treated you,” Dean told him, “It was bad and it was wrong...no kid should be treated like that, ever, no matter what’s happened.”

“No matter what I’ve done?” Jack whispered, still looking down at the flowers.

“No matter what,” Dean shook his head, “I’m sorry I blamed you for stuff you couldn’t have controlled or the mistakes you made. I want to make it up to you...whatever way you’re okay with. We’re family, you’re a Winchester, and I’m sorry I didn’t treat you that way.”

Jack finally looked up at him and smiled weakly, “Thank you, Dean,” he told him, “I am happy living where I am, but...I miss you all very much, despite everything. I want us to be a family again.”

“I want that too,” Dean said before pulling him into a tight hug.

Jack hugged him back just as tight.

…

Samandriel came over to the table and sat down across from Castiel, surprising most of the people sitting there.

“Uh, Alfie, hey-” Sam started.

“I do not blame you for what happened to me,” Samandriel said firmly, “I think that most of the people here understand what it’s like to be under Heaven’s control. I would like you to please stop ignoring me now because I always wanted to get to know you and you acting like I do not exist out of guilt is very annoying.”

Silence.

Balthazar laughed in shock, “Well, free will certainly agrees with someone.”

“I...am sorry,” Cas cleared his throat, “You’re right. It was wrong of me to ignore you.”

Samandriel smiled, “Okay, thank you. I forgive you. Now, Kevin gave me this seashell and is very nice to me, it makes me feel odd. What does that mean?”

Balthazar burst out laughing.

…

Adam had his head ducked down, talking to Michael away from the rest of the group when Dean and Jack came back.

“You two are having a kid?” Dean asked bluntly as they walked over.

“Yes,” Adam crossed his arms then wrinkled his nose, “Your skin is red, you’re going to get a sunburn, just listen to Sam and put the sunscreen on.”

“You didn’t think to tell us?” Dean asked, ignoring the other comment, “We’re going to be uncles, it’s something to celebrate.”

“No,” Adam deadpanned, “It’s none of your business. What isn’t processing here?”

“We’re a family,” Jack spoke up, “I understand that you do not like Dean, but he is my family. I wanted to share my joy about having a new family member soon, so I told him.”

Adam took a deep breath and smiled at Jack, “You’re right, Jack...I’m sorry for snapping. Yes, Dean, we’re having a child.”

“Think this is a good time for that?” Dean asked.

“I doubt it’ll ever be the perfect time,” Adam said, taking Michael’s hand, “But it’s what we’re doing. Either support it or don’t, I don’t really care.”

Dean cleared his throat and nodded stiffly, “Of course we’ll support it...kid’s gotta know their uncles, right?”

“Not really,” Michael mumbled.

“Well,” Gabriel said, throwing his arms around Michael and Adam’s shoulders and squeezing between them, “Personally, I’m happy the little nephilim is out of the bag, now we can get down to the serious celebrating!” 

“Can he even drink while he’s carrying?” Dean smirked.

Adam rolled his eyes, “Neither of us are carrying, asshole.”

…

“That was such a good idea,” Dorothy commented as they put stuff away in the storage room, “I haven’t felt this relaxed since we got back here,” she laughed weakly.

“Yeah, that tends to happen around Sam and Dean,” Charlie explained, “Trust me, I love them, they’re basically my family...but their lives are exhausting.”

“What are your plans for after this?” Dorothy asked suddenly.

Charlie looked at her and raised an eyebrow, “After?”

“I mean...after the whole...defeating God thing, y’know?” Dorothy asked.

“Oh,” Charlie sighed, “I don’t know. I’ve never really thought that far ahead, we’ve been so busy. I guess I might go back to hunting? I was pretty good at that.”

“I can’t think of anything I want to do,” Dorothy mumbled, “I’ve been so focused on Oz the last few years, it’s been so busy. Now it’s basically self-sufficient and I don’t really know what I’m supposed to do with myself,” she admitted, “This isn’t my world, it hasn’t been for a really long time.”

Charlie put a hand on her arm, “Hey, you always have us. We’re always going to be here.”

Dorothy smiled weakly, “I appreciate that...having you...I mean...all of you,” she sighed, looking up at the ceiling.

Charlie smiled at her for a moment.

Dorothy rolled her eyes, “Okay, this is getting exhausting,” she said before leaning down and kissing her.

…

“Jack seemed like he’s doing good,” Dean said awkwardly as they sat in the kitchen.

“Yeah,” Cas sighed, his voice small and quiet, “He does. He deserves to have that kind of life, where he’s happy,” he swallowed, “Even if it isn’t with us.”

Dean sighed, “He’ll be back one day...said he wants us all to be a family again.”

“The house is a better place for him to live a life, not the bunker,” Cas cleared his throat, “And no, Dean, that’s not me taking Adam’s side, it’s me taking Jack’s.”

Dean scrubbed his face with his hands, “I wasn’t going to say that. I’m trying here, okay?”

“I know,” Cas nodded, looking down at his hands.

“Cas…” Dean trailed off.

“I am not with Balthazar,” Cas said quietly, “That is in the past. I love him, I always will, but it is a platonic love now.”

“Why are you telling me that?” Dean asked.

“I just...wanted you to know,” Cas told him, “Because everyone is thinking about their future, about what they want after all of this is over,” he stood up, “I am going to go make sure Jack made it home okay,” he said before disappearing right in front of Dean’s eyes.

Dean stared at the spot he’d disappeared from and sighed, “What the hell?”