#and then finding out they just used that term because gay relationships weren’t accepted and trying to not be disappointed

[aroaessidhe]

2024 reads / storygraph

At The Feet Of The Sun

book 2 in a slow paced high fantasy duology*

the right hand of the emperor (who is off searching for an heir) struggles with what to do after passing on his responsibilities and also discovering various pieces of information that are mindblowing to him, personally,

after adventure is thrust upon him, he travels to find His Radiancy and they go on some otherworldly adventures while growing closer and figuring out the nature of their friendship

(*there’s extra novellas & i think another book coming? duology adjacent, currently,)

[eddiediazismyhusband]

i really want a fic of eddie realising him and buck have been falling in love the entire time.

I keep seeing posts (and even had someone tell me) that it’d be unrealistic for Eddie to be in love with Buck and not realise. Like not even think of him as an option. 

But that’s such a real queer person thing- i’ve lived that experience. I’m a women and despite all the times I admired other women it took forever for it to click for me.

I mean I grew up with accepting parents and kind friends and even queer people on tv. I remember looking at girls as much as I looked at boys. And yet I still had the reoccurring thought “I could be gay, I mean i’m not- but I could be. But most people aren’t gay and i’m most people”. (gay being used here in my head to mean “not straight”) AND YET despite it all I didn’t realise i was Bi until I was much older.

And even then, I’d had at least two long term crushes without realising they were crushes before it clicked. 

(I kid you not- it took a drag queen talking to me like i was a toddler for it to click, but that’s a whole other story SO-) 

Whether or not Eddie already knows he’s gay (or demi or whatever) doesn’t really make a difference, cause it’s that same sort of heteronormative internalising that causes these feeling to not be understood. 

Especially for Eddies character who’s had this messy norm with Shannon for so long, a stable thing to grasp (even when their relationship was a mess) and then her death and him chasing to find that weak grasp to SOMETHING again- something that can be another excuse to not go looking for himself. 

Like he’s internalised this behaviour of, “if i’m in a relationship, I don’t have to look deep and figure out why it’s not working” and never quite realising that maybe the reason it’s not working is cause he’s trying to replace something that was never really real.

(Speaking of, Eddie and Shannon are the epitome of loml by taylor swift. I mean- “we were just kids babe” “from one kiss to getting married” “something counterfeits dead” “what a valiant roar, what a bland goodbye” “i’m combing through the band of lies- “i’ll never leave” never mind”) 

babe you are speaking to the POSTER CHILD of raised in a religious household and convinced themselves they weren’t queer until it was staring them in the face

the biggest issue is that most (again i said most before yall try to jump down my throat) of the people who are against buddie are either straight people who don’t understand the nuances of queerness, or queer people who didn’t grow up in environments of oppression and have never felt the need to hide themselves

i used to tell my parents i had crushes on girls only to later realize that it was because i just had a genuine platonic connection with them (two of whom are my best friends and are also queer women) and i used to get confused about what the difference between attraction and admiration was— something a LOT of queer people go through without realizing.

comphet is literally such a widespread phenomenon that people truly don’t realize just how common it is— like even queer people don’t realize they probably know several “straight” people who are still lying to themselves bc sexuality isn’t black and white— it exists on a spectrum. I’m not saying that to invalidate anyone’s straightness, im just saying i know multiple men who are my dads age (60s +) who only recently came to the realization that they were gay.

it’s genuinely so disappointing to see some of the people in this fandom pushing homophobic talking points from history just to disprove a character’s implied queerness bc they view that character’s queerness as a threat to their ship.

anyway, i agree eddie and shannon’s relationship is soooooo unconscious lavender marriage coded to me and there are SO MANY beautiful TS lyrics that apply to that… another song that i really feel like captures Eddie’s pov of the relationship is Home by One Direction… especially these lyrics:

[the-sappho-of-lesbos]

I feel as though I’ve gone through different phases around this depending on my life stage and age.

When I was first out / questioning my sexuality I was 15/16. Even being able to openly talk about that stuff with people was new to me. Having community was new to me. I was just excited to be around others who I thought were like me. Talk about things I couldn’t with others. Explore that part of myself. Make memes. Joke around. Be introduced to the culture and language. I didn’t care who said what. I was just excited to be involved. But I was also around some pretty toxic people. People in my community who told me being a lesbian was wrong, that I shouldn’t use words like homosexual, that wouldn’t listen to my experiences.

Over time that began to weigh heavily on me. Made me more confused about my sexuality.

I really went in on myself and was full of so much anger at myself and the world. Which lead me to absolutely snapping at around age 18/19. That was when I accepted I was a lesbian 100%. But I was also so open to how much the world hated me because I was a lesbian and caused me to spiral.

I was really struggling to even find fiction I could connect to. I had massively high expectations of lesbian fiction and if I couldn’t relate to it I didn’t want to read it because it made me feel as though I was lonely and being me wrong. So I jumped headfirst into lgbt nonfiction with a focus on lesbians.

I learnt even more about language and communities and what was what. Trying to find my place. Around that time I was so annoyed if people used words they shouldn’t or that weren’t theirs to use because it felt like the only thing I had.

But then I read even more and started seeing everyone had a different idea of what was what. There was still areas in which most people agreed on, or at the very least agreed it was a gay thing in whatever way someone wanted to use it.

I started to care a little less. But then I would see people infighting over the language and feeling weird because I would be like well yeah they are both right in a way , they are just citing different things that agree with them.

That lead me to feeling disconnected again. Feeling lost.

After time I slowly started to not care as much. But I would still get pretty annoyed at people in heterosexual relationships using those gay terms (like a woman calling herself a bottom while sleeping with a man etc)

I don’t know how I managed it or what changed but currently where I’m at in life I don’t seem to get annoyed anymore. I just laugh internally about how silly they make themselves sound.

100% unrelated but I’ve been thinking a lot lately how when people in heterosexual relationships use gay terminology to describe aspects of it it doesn’t make me annoyed like it used it it just makes think those people look like right fools

[flightlessnightingale]

On Lesbianism

I’ll state it at the top here, because many have not understood my stance. The purpose of this essay is not to say that Lesbian cannot mean “Female homosexual.” Rather, my objective is to show that Lesbian means more than that single definition suggests. Female Homosexuals are lesbians, unless they personally do not want to use that label. Now, on with the show: Lesbianism is not about gatekeeping, and I don’t want to have to keep convincing people that the movement popularized by someone who wrote a book full of lies and hate speech then immediately worked with Ronald Reagan is a bad movement. In the early ’70s, groups of what would now be called “gender critical” feminists threatened violence against many trans women who dared exist in women’s and lesbian spaces. For example, trans woman Beth Elliott, who was at the 1973 West Coast Lesbian Feminist Conference to perform with her lesbian band, was ridiculed onstage and had her existence protested. In 1979, radical feminist Janice Raymond, a professor at the University of Massachusetts, wrote the defining work of the TERF movement, “Transsexual Empire: The Making of the Shemale,” in which she argued that “transsexualism” should be “morally mandating it out of existence”—mainly by restricting access to transition care (a political position shared by the Trump administration). Soon after she wrote another paper, published for the government-funded, National Center for Healthcare Technology — and the Reagan administration cut off Medicare and private health insurance coverage for transition-related care.

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism is a fundamentally unsustainable ideology. Lesbianism is a fundamentally sustainable existence.

There used to be a lesbian bar or queer bar or gay bar in practically every small town — sometimes one of each. After surviving constant police raids, these queer spaces began closing even Before the AIDS epidemic. Because TERFs would take them over, kick out transfems and their friends. Suddenly, there weren’t enough local patrons to keep the bars open, because the majority had been kicked out. With America’s lack of public transportation, not enough people were coming from out of town either.

TERFs, even beyond that, were a fundamental part of the state apparatus that let AIDS kill millions.

For those who don’t know, Lesbian, from the time of Sappho of Lesbos to the about 1970′s, referred to someone who rejects the patriarchal hierarchy. It was not only a sexuality, but almost akin to a gender spectrum.

That changed in the 1970′s when TERFs co-opted 2nd Wave feminism, working with Ronald fucking Reagan to ban insurance for trans healthcare.

TERFs took over the narrative, the bars, the movement, and changed Lesbian from the most revolutionary and integral queer communal identity of 2 fucking THOUSAND years, from “Someone who rejects the patriarchal hierarchy” to “A woman with a vagina who’s sexually attracted to other women with vaginas”

How does this fit into the bi lesbian debate? As I said, Lesbian is more of a Gender Spectrum than anything else, it was used much in the same way that we use queer or genderqueer today.

And it’s intersectional too.

See, if you were to try to ascribe a rigid, biological, or localized model of an identity across multiple cultures, it will fail. It will exclude people who should not be excluded. ESPECIALLY Intersex people. That’s why “Two Spirit” isn’t something rigid- it is an umbrella term for the identities within over a dozen different cultures. In the next two sections, I have excerpts on Two-Spirit and Butch identity, to give a better idea of the linguistics of queer culture: This section on Two-Spirit comes from wikipedia, as it has the most links to further sources, I have linked all sources directly, though you can also access them from the Wikipedia page’s bibliography: Two-Spirit is a pan-Indian, umbrella term used by some Indigenous North Americans to describe Native people who fulfill a traditional ceremonial and social role that does not correlate to the western binary. [1] [2] [3] Created at the 1990 Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering in Winnipeg, it was "specifically chosen to distinguish and distance Native American/First Nations people from non-Native peoples." [4] Criticism of Two-Spirit arises from 2 major points, 1. That it can exasperate the erasure of the traditional terms and identities of specific cultures.           a. Notice how this parallels criticisms of Gay being used as the umbrella           term for queer culture in general. 2. That it implies adherence to the Western binary; that Natives believe these individuals are "both male and female" [4]          a. Again, you’ll notice that this parallels my criticisms of the TERF definition of Lesbian, that tying LGBT+ identities to a rigid western gender binary does a disservice to LGBT+ people,—especially across cultures. “Two Spirit" wasn’t intended to be interchangeable with "LGBT Native American" or "Gay Indian"; [2] nor was it meant to replace traditional terms in Indigenous languages.  Rather, it was created to serve as a pan-Indian unifier. [1] [2] [4] —The term and identity of two-spirit "does not make sense" unless it is contextualized within a Native American or First Nations framework and traditional cultural understanding. [3] [10] [11] The ceremonial roles intended to be under the modern umbrella of two-spirit can vary widely, even among the Indigenous people who accept the English-language term. No one Native American/First Nations' culture's gender or sexuality categories apply to all, or even a majority of, these cultures. [4] [8] Butch: At the turn of the 20th century, the word “butch” meant “tough kid” or referred to a men’s haircut. It surfaced as a term used among women who identified as lesbians in the 1940s, but historians and scholars have struggled to identify exactly how or when it entered the queer lexicon. However it happened, "Butch” has come to mean a “lesbian of masculine appearance or behavior.” (I have heard that, though the words originate from French, Femme & Butch came into Lesbian culture from Latina lesbian culture, and if I find a good source for that I will share. If I had to guess, there may be some wonderful history to find of it in New Orleans—or somewhere similar.) Before “butch” became a term used by lesbians, there were other terms in the 1920s that described masculinity among queer women. According to the historian Lillian Faderman,“bull dagger” and “bull dyke” came out of the Black lesbian subculture of Harlem, where there were “mama” and “papa” relationships that looked like butch-femme partnerships. Performer Gladys Bentley epitomized this style with her men’s hats, ties and jackets. Women in same-sex relationships at this time didn’t yet use the word “lesbian” to describe themselves. Prison slang introduced the terms “daddy,” “husband,” and “top sargeant” into the working class lesbian subculture of the 1930s.  This lesbian history happened alongside Trans history, and often intersected, just as the Harlem renaissance had music at the forefront of black and lesbian (and trans!) culture, so too can trans musicians, actresses, and more be found all across history, and all across the US. Some of the earliest known trans musicians are Billy Tipton and Willmer “Little Ax” Broadnax—Both transmasculine musicians who hold an important place in not just queer history, but music history.

Lesbian isn’t rigid & biological, it’s social and personal, built up of community and self-determination.

And it has been for millennia.

So when people say that nonbinary lesbians aren’t lesbian, or asexual lesboromantics aren’t lesbian, or bisexual lesbians aren’t lesbian, it’s not if those things are technically true within the framework — It’s that those statements are working off a fundamentally claustrophobic, regressive, reductionist, Incorrect definition You’ll notice that whilst I have been able to give citations for TERFs, for Butch, and especially for Two-Spirit, there is little to say for Lesbianism. The chief reason for this is that lesbian history has been quite effectively erased-but it is not forgotten, and the anthropological work to recover what was lost is still ongoing. One of the primary issues is that so many who know or remember the history have so much trauma connected to "Lesbian” that they feel unable to reclaim it. Despite this trauma, just like the anthropological work, reclamation is ongoing.

Since Sappho, lesbian was someone who rejects the patriarchal hierarchy. For centuries, esbian wasn’t just a sexuality, it was intersectional community, kin to a gender spectrum, like today’s “queer”. When TERFs co-opted 2nd Wave feminism, they redefined Lesbian to “woman w/ a vag attracted to other women w/ vags”. So when you say “bi lesbians aren’t lesbian” it’s not whether that’s true within the framework, it’s that you’re working off a claustrophobic, regressive, and reductionist definition.

I want Feminism, Queerness, Lesbianism, to be fucking sustainable.

I wanna see happy trans and lesbian and queer kids in a green and blue fucking world some day.

I want them to be able to grow old in a world we made good.

[sokos]

Different forms of biphobia according to the San Francisco Human Rights Commission - "Bisexual invisibility"

For reference WMSMW means women who have sex with men and women, and similar for men.

❝ Bisexuals experience high rates of being ignored, discriminated against, demonized, or rendered invisible by both the heterosexual world and the lesbian and gay communities. Often, the entire sexual orientation is branded as invalid, immoral, or irrelevant. Despite years of activism and the largest population within the LGBT community, the needs of bisexuals still go unaddressed and their very existence is still called into question. This erasure has serious consequences on bisexuals’ health, economic well-being, and funding for bi organizations and programs. [...] Despite the overwhelming data that bisexuals exist, other people’s assumptions often render bisexuals invisible. Two women holding hands are read as “lesbian,” two men as “gay,” and a man and a woman as “straight.” In reality, any of these people might be bi―perhaps all of them. The majority of research lumps data on bisexuals under “gay” or “lesbian,” which makes it difficult to draw any conclusions about bisexuals and skews the data about lesbians and gay men. “Thus any particular needs of bisexuals are eclipsed and conflated. Only a handful of studies separate out bisexuals and/or report on their bisexual-specific findings. Fewer compare bisexuals to people who are not bisexual.” [...] Bisexuals find themselves erased in history. Many famous people―such as Marlene Dietrich, June Jordan, Freddie Mercury, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Walt Whitman―have been labeled as lesbian or gay for their same-sex relationships, yet their long-term relationships with different-sex partners are ignored or their importance minimized. This disrespects the truth of their lives for the sake of a binary conception of sexual orientation. It also makes it more difficult for bisexuals just coming out to find role models. This historical erasure also extends to activists. Rather than acknowledging the decades of hard work bisexuals have done in the LGBT movement, many gays and lesbians have accused bisexuals of trying to “ride their coattails.” In fact, bisexuals have often been leaders in the movement. In just one example, it was a bi woman, Brenda Howard, who organized the one-month anniversary rally in honor of the Stonewall uprising. Then a year later, she organized a march and celebration that turned into New York’s annual pride parade and inspired countless other pride celebrations around the world. [...] Often, the word “bisexual” shows up in an organization’s name or mission statement, but the group doesn’t offer programming that addresses the specific needs of bisexuals (see the chapter on organizations and programs serving bisexuals). Even when an organization is inclusive, the press and public officials often fall back on the “safety” of saying just “gay and lesbian.” There is even a growing trend of talking about the “gay, lesbian, and transgender” movement. But words matter. Invisibility matters. Bisexuals find themselves excluded in other ways as well.

Bisexual invisibility is one of many manifestations of biphobia. Others forms of biphobia include:

- Assuming that everyone you meet is either heterosexual or homosexual.

- Supporting and understanding a bisexual identity for young people because you identified “that way” before you came to your “real” lesbian/gay/heterosexual identity.

- Automatically assuming romantic couplings of two women are lesbian, or two men are gay, or a man and a woman are heterosexual.

- Expecting a bisexual to identify as gay or lesbian when coupled with the “same” sex/gender.

- Expecting a bisexual to identify as heterosexual when coupled with the “opposite” sex/gender.

- Believing that bisexual men spread HIV/AIDS to heterosexuals.

- Believing that bisexual women spread HIV/AIDS to lesbians.

Thinking bisexual people haven’t made up their minds.

- Refusing to accept someone’s self-identification as bisexual if the person hasn’t had sex with both men and women.

- Expecting bisexual people to get services, information, and education from heterosexual service agencies for their “heterosexual side” and then go to gay and/or lesbian service agencies for their “homosexual side.”

- Feeling bisexuals just want to have their cake and eat it too.

- Assuming a bisexual person would want to fulfill your sexual fantasies or curiosities.

- Thinking bisexuals only have committed relationships with “opposite” sex/gender partners.

- Being gay or lesbian and asking your bisexual friends about their lovers or whom they are dating only when that person is the “same” sex/gender.

- Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an “opposite” gender/sex coupling to reap the social benefits of a “heterosexual” pairing.

- Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual.

- Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality.

- Feeling that you can’t trust a bisexual because they aren’t really gay or lesbian, or aren’t really heterosexual.

- Refusing to use the word bisexual in the media when reporting on people attracted to more than one gender, instead substituting made-up terms such as “gay-ish.”

- Using the terms phase or stage or confused or fence-sitter or bisexual or AC/DC or switch-hitter as slurs or in an accusatory way.

- Assuming bisexuals are incapable of monogamy.

- Feeling that bisexual people are too outspoken and pushy about their visibility and rights.

- Looking at a bisexual person and automatically thinking of her/his sexuality rather than seeing her/him as a whole, complete person.

- Not confronting a biphobic remark or joke for fear of being identified as bisexual.

- Assuming bisexual means “available.”

- Thinking that bisexual people will have their rights when lesbian and gay people win theirs.

- Expecting bisexual activists and organizers to minimize bisexual issues (such as HIV/AIDS, violence, basic civil rights, military service, same-sex marriage, child custody, adoption, etc.) and to prioritize the visibility of “lesbian and/or gay” issues.

- Avoiding mentioning to friends that you are involved with a bisexual or working with a bisexual group because you are afraid they will think you are a bisexual.

The implications of bi invisibility go far beyond bisexuals wanting to feel welcome at the table. It also has a significant impact on bisexuals’ health. Here are just a few examples from recent largescale studies :

Writing the rest under Read More...

- Bisexual people experience greater health disparities than the broader population, including a greater likelihood of suffering from depression and other mood or anxiety disorders.

- Bisexuals report higher rates of hypertension, poor or fair physical health, smoking, and risky drinking than heterosexuals or lesbians/gays.

- Many, if not most, bisexual people don’t come out to their healthcare providers. This means they are getting incomplete information (for example, about safer sex practices).

- Most HIV and STI prevention programs don’t adequately address the health needs of bisexuals, much less those who have sex with both men and women but do not identify as bisexual.

- Bisexual women in relationships with monosexual partners have an increased rate of domestic violence compared to women in other demographic categories.

In the 1980s and 1990s, bisexuals were vociferously blamed for the spread of HIV (even though the virus is spread by unprotected sex, not a bisexual identity). However, a 1994 study of data from San Francisco is also worth noting: it found that at that time, bisexually identified MSMW (men who have sex with men and women) weren’t a “common vector or ‘bridge’ for spreading HIV from male partners to female partners due to high rates of using barrier protection and extremely low rates of risky behavior.” Yet scapegoating continues. Sometimes it is explicit, as in the misleading hysteria about men on the “down low” infecting unsuspecting female partners, particularly in the African-American community. Other times, the negative message is communicated in subtle ways. For example, in the 2008 San Francisco Department of Public Health HIV/AIDS Epidemiology Annual Report, MSMWs are not mentioned at all, their data most likely absorbed into information about MSMs. The only time the word “bisexual” appears is as an infection source for heterosexual women.

In a 2010 study using Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System data from Washington State, Compared to lesbians:

Bisexual women had significantly lower levels of education, were more likely to be living with income below 200% of the federal poverty level, and had more children living in the household.

- Bisexual women were significantly less likely to have health insurance coverage and more likely to experience financial barriers to receiving healthcare services.

- Bisexual women were more likely to be current smokers and acute drinkers.

- Bisexual women showed significantly higher rates of poor general health and frequent mental distress, even after controlling for confounding variables.

Although we have some information about the health of bisexual people and of men and women who have sex with more than one gender, there is still much that we do not know. It is important for researchers to employ methodologies that group bisexuals together, or that group together people who have sex with partners of more than one gender; rather than only the more common practice of grouping gay and bisexual men or lesbian and bisexual women together, never separately examining attributes of and needs of the latter. Why? Because bisexual women’s issues are not always the same as lesbian issues, even for bisexual women who only have sex with partners of the same gender or for "lesbian-identified" women who have sex with men as well as women. Bisexual men’s issues are not always the same as gay male issues, even for bisexual men who only have sex with partners of the same gender or for gay-identified men who have sex with women as well as men. Likewise, heterosexuals’ issues are different from those of bisexuals, even among heterosexually-identified MSMW and WSMW. Why would health issues be different for people who share similar lived experiences but use different sexual orientation labels? Some of the issues would be similar, including some concerns related to sexual health. But because of biphobia and bi-invisibility, which affect bisexuals on an immediate, personal level, bisexuals may have very different health experiences. These differences may result from increased stress and experiences of discrimination in general, and/or more specifically from experiencing biphobia from healthcare providers.

There are health issues that are specific and generalizeable to bisexuals as a group and health issues that are specific and generalizeable to people who have partners of more than one gender as a group. This literature review shines a spotlight on specific challenges related to HIV and STI prevention among bisexuals, WSMW, and MSMW. Unfortunately, existing research on this topic is scarce. Much of it lumps bisexuals into either “lesbian” or “gay male” categories, making it difficult to draw any conclusions about bisexual health. Data on bisexual women’s sexual health is less prevalent than men’s, particularly data on WSMW. Additionally, not all researchers take into consideration whether their study participants identify as bisexual, MSMW, WSMW, or something else. It is important to recognize that many, if not most, bisexual people do not come out to their health care providers or to researchers due to judgments that silence, stereotypes that shame, and assumptions that erase bisexual identity. When a woman is partnered and says she is using birth control, there may be an automatic assumption that she is monogamous and heterosexual. A man in a same-sex relationship is assumed to be gay and therefore not in need of information about sex with women. When a man says he is married or partnered, there are often no subsequent questions asked about other sexual partners. Health care providers need to become aware of how to serve this often-overlooked community and its unique concerns, looking at a patient’s sexual behavior rather than simply a patient’s sexual identity

Little information is available about female sexual health, especially in regards to WSMW. A study published in the American Journal of Public Health 1998 is a perfect illustration. The report featured statistics about both the male and female study participants, all of whom were receiving treatment for HIV. However, the researchers identified all women as simply “women,” with no sexual orientation descriptors. In contrast, the men in the study were categorized as either gay men, bisexual men, or heterosexual men. One study that actually does highlight bisexual women’s health is a 1996 study by Cochran and Mays, which found that bisexual women are more likely than lesbians to use latex or plastic barrier protection for oral sex with women. More recent research [found], like Cochran and Mays, that among WSW and WSMW, having larger numbers of female partners is positively correlated with having vaginal infections, specifically bacterial vaginosis, trichomonas vaginalis, and herpes.

In a study published in 2003, Ciccarone et al. reports that 40 percent of HIV-positive gay and bisexual men have had sex without disclosing their HIV status to their sexual partners, usually within the context of a “casual dating” or a nonexclusive relationship. The study does not distinguish between its gay and bisexual participants, which makes it impossible to extrapolate data specific to the bisexual cohort. Nevertheless, HIV prevention programs working with HIV-positive clients should take relationship context into account when discussing disclosure and behavior. Crepaz and Marks studied safer sex practices and disclosure of status to partners, among HIVpositive men. They found no differences between men who have sex with women (MSW), men who have sex with men (MSM), and MSMW regarding which group was more likely to practice safer sex techniques and/or disclose serostatus to their partners. Unfortunately, their reporting confuses these groups (MSW, MSM, and MSMW) with sexual orientation identities

Case et al. found that bisexual women were twice as likely to have never given birth compared to heterosexual women. However, among women who had given birth, bisexual women were twice as likely as heterosexual women to have done so during their teenage years. Not giving birth may put bisexual women at greater risk for ovarian and endometrial cancers, and teenage pregnancy also has health implications

In 1996 Cochran and Mays published a study that analyzed sexual behavior and HIV risk among young lesbians and bisexual women. Participants were recruited at gay pride events, potentially excluding bisexual women who are in different-sex relationships and who socialize in heterosexual communities. The researchers found that, while the overall majority of women do not use barrier protection during oral sex with women, those participants who do use barriers during oral sex with women are most likely to identify as bisexual. Despite that finding, Cochran and Mays reported that “high-risk sexual experimentation… is most likely to occur among teenagers who do not yet consider themselves to be lesbians.” It is important to note, however, that bisexual identification is not necessarily transitional, simply “experimentation,” or a teenage phase. Researchers should be aware of unintentional implications that bisexually-identified clients are not “yet” gay or lesbian and/or are necessarily engaging in high-risk behavior.

Cheryl Dobinson and colleagues explain that disclosure is important for bisexual clients for many reasons, including: "…the desire to be seen as a whole person, with bisexuality being part of who they are, to increase comfort levels and understanding, so proper diagnoses can be made and relevant information given, so providers can be sensitive and understanding to the issues being faced, for appropriate resources referrals, and generally because it is important for mental health and emotional wellness". Clients who experience homophobia, biphobia, or ignorance when dealing with health care providers may not receive appropriate information about sexual health, with some physicians “equating bisexuality with having multiple partners, not receiving appropriate information about safer sex with male and female partners, voyeurism, inappropriate jokes or comments, bisexuality being seen as the problem, and being told that you’re either gay or straight.” For example, women who identify as lesbian to their health care provider may not be given any information on safer sex techniques with men because it may be assumed that the client’s only sexual activity in the past and in the future is solely with women. This kind of misinformation has especially devastating effects on youth who are just beginning to explore their sexuality. Bisexual youth are becoming sexually active without being provided with the information they need to responsibly and safely engage in sexual activity. ❞

Bisexual people also experience economic discrimination based on their sexuality, lack of institutional support, and other forms of biphobia. You can read more about these stats and surveys by clicking on the link above.

[baeddel]

[UZUMAKI SPOILERS—for like, the entire thing; please read it before reading this. you’ve been warned!]

in terms of horror stock characters, Suichi is the girlfriend. the girlfriend is always the first to see things as they are; she sees the ghost first-hand and knows the house is haunted. but her boyfriend, who didn’t see it, thinks she’s crazy and dismisses her. this is why they stay in the house while it’s still haunted, and it’s plausible to us because we expect boyfriends to be dismissive of their girlfriends. in Uzumaki, Suichi has a complete understanding of the spiral horror; he anticipates every new development, but he can never express it in a way that makes sense to others. the climax of each chapter is always the second appearance of the horror, its second appearance serving as an explanation of its unintelligible first appearance in Suichi’s gnomes.

Kirie is the boyfriend. she never believes Suichi. the narrative of each chapter serves to convince Kirie of what Suichi already knows. she is skeptical and self-reliant; when others are in danger she helps them. she escapes peril by her wits and means. but Kirie is an unusual boyfriend; rather than dismissing Suichi she takes him extremely seriously. she repeats his obscure utterances to herself and ponders them. their relationship is reminiscint of the one between the master and student in Buddhist koans. why, then, does she never believe him? though Suichi is her spiritual master he is not her temporal master; she must ultimately obey her family, and before she will be convinced she must always convince them.

the stories tend to follow this pattern: Kirie encounters a spiral horror ⟶ Suichi explains it to her in a cryptic way ⟶ she offers Suichi’s explanation to her family, who reject it in favour of a commonsense explanation ⟶ Kirie encounters the spiral horror again and contemplates Suichi’s words without confirming them ⟶ finally Kirie encounters the spiral horror in its most extreme form, finally understanding and accepting what Suichi wanted to tell her.

the comic itself invites us to reflect on this in Chapter 12 (which marks the point when the manga moves from self-contained episodes to a continuous narrative) where the whole thing plays out in miniature: Kirie and Suichi are spending time together on the beach. Kirie says “Suichi, I’ve been thinking... if it weren’t for you, I’d have died a long time ago.” At this moment they hear a mysterious sound. Kirie says, “what’s that noise?” Suichi is alarmed; “it means a storm is coming!” he says. then he goes running through the town trying to alert everyone that a typhoon is on its way while they all call him crazy. we’re as bewildered as Kirie and the townsfolk; how the hell does he know? yet, just as Suichi said, the typhoon comes, and it sets into motion events that lead to the manga’s finale.

in the finale all the engimas in the story are explained for the second time, always confirming Suichi’s cryptic wisdom. in the very last scene we finally resolve the enigma of Dragonfly Pond which was introduced in the very first chapter; deep underground beneath the pond there is an enormous spiral structure which beams light and which petrifies everything. Kirie first finds her family, who have been petrified. at this moment, when she has lost her family, she finds Suichi. now what happens? he explains it all to her. though he’s only been there for a few minutes more than her, he understands it all; the spiral is self-constituting, events indefinitely repeat, and so forth. she listens, she accepts his wisdom, and she embraces him. they coil around each other and we are told that time stops for them. they achieve a sort of enlightenment.

so Uzumaki is really a gay samurai story. @mogsk told me about a part of the Hagakure that talks about homosexuality. it recounts a dialogue with a samurai named Saburozaemon, who says that homosexuality “is something both pleasant and unpleasant.” it is pleasant because it asks one to “lay down one’s life for another”, and if you don’t “it becomes a matter of shame.” yet then “you have nothing left to lay down for your master,” so it is unpleasant. all throughout Uzumaki Kirie struggles with this doubled burden. she is Suichi’s “disciple” (as the Hagakure refers to the male partners of samurai), yet she owes her life to her family. she must honour her family’s words and so accepts their interpretations, but she is ashamed to disobey Suichi’s words and so always wrestles with them. all throughout, Suichi’s wisdom tests her loyalty to her family, placing her in a double bind of shame and dishonour. in the finale, the death of her family allows her to honourably abandon their discursive regime and embrace Suichi’s. when the two embrace there is no longer any confusion between them. she accepts his words, she embraces his body; the two become intellectual ronin and are ichiren takushou, entrusted to the same lotus in the Pure Land.

[mollrat101]

Alright, here’s my nerdy reason for not liking the idea of Marty and Deborah ending up together...

Thematic dissonance

Everyone knows I support the idea of an Ava/Deborah endgame (whether or not it will happen is a separate issue), but if I’m trying to temper my expectations, I would gladly accept an ending where Deborah does end up single but 1) her and Marty are fucking over and I mean for good this time. She is not wasting anymore time or energy on that garbage man. And 2) if I’m really shooting for the stars, I would also like to see Deborah possibly explore her sexuality beyond men because so far that hasn’t made her happy. Whether or not, she partners with Ava is besides the point. I would love to see Ava supporting baby gay Deborah, even if she’s not giving her the practical experience, if you know what I’m saying. 

But to me, not only is Marty a terrible choice but it also doesn’t make sense with the story they’re telling. 

Allow me to explain with a couple of other pairings I like who are toxic as fuck like Deborah and Marty except I actually like those. 

Two that come to mind are Eve and Villanelle from Killing Eve and Roman and Gerri from Succession. 

These pairings measured by all standards of what would be considered a healthy relationship, completely fail. They can be awful to each other and they’re all not good people. 

But these pairings are fun to enjoy because they make sense within the context of the story. Both of these shows are dark and are about toxic relationships and power dynamics. It would be weirder if these pairings weren’t messed up. 

But Deborah and Marty are a toxic couple in an otherwise pretty hopeful and optimistic show. They bring out the worst in each other, there’s no real consistency in how they feel about each other or how intertwined they’re in each other’s lives and their whole relationship is based in uncertainty of where it’s heading and what they are to each other. 

With Gerri and Roman and Eve and Villanelle that’s all fine because that’s the point. That uncertainty and that push and pull are part of the intrigue. 

However, Marty offers no growth for Deborah. 

In a show, that seems to want so badly to see Deborah grow and come back to a more authentic version of herself, it just doesn’t make any sense to pair her with someone who represents falling back into old, toxic patterns. If the point going forward is for Deborah to tell her own story even if it doesn’t get her external validation, then why be with a man who she can’t ever seem to be good enough for in his eyes? A man who really only seems to care about what she can offer him in terms of money or sex, but doesn’t care to know her deeply or curious about her inner life. 

That cut to Deborah as Ava says, “I think it’s really cool that you found someone who loves you for exactly who you are” tells us Deborah wants that too but fears she won’t ever find that. She wants to be loved exactly as she is now regardless of her age, regardless of whether or not her show takes off. For such a famous person, it would make sense that Deborah wants someone who will stay even when the spotlight isn’t on her anymore. Someone who she’s built a strong private connection with and won’t drop her the minute they can make their image look a little bit better. If in the 30 years that they’ve known each other, Marty can’t find a way to be that person, he’s not going to be. 

To me, the best couples are also ones that embody the themes of the story they’re in. I obviously think that fits Ava and Deborah perfectly, but who knows if that’s going to happen. 

But that sure as fuck doesn’t apply to Deborah and Marty. 

[actuallysaiyan]

Hold Me(Kakashi Hatake x Fem!Reader)

Word count: 1,603 Pairings: Kakashi Hatake x Reader Summary: Reader has loved Kakashi since they were children, but she knew that it would be hard to get underneath all his layers and get to his heart. She knows he doesn’t think he is worthy of love, but she knows he is. She’ll do anything to show him how amazing he truly is. Warnings: Fluffy, bittersweet, mentions of Rin and Obito, sadness. A/N: Just letting everyone know, I write Naruto content for real now. I’ve finished Shippuden and you can send in your Naruto requests!

It took you so long to finally come to terms with your feelings. You had known him for so long, and you always tried to suppress how you truly felt. You knew that Kakashi wasn’t someone who was so willing to open up to people. He had gone through so much in his life, and you were always there on the sidelines to adore him from the sidelines.

But now, you were an adult and you were trying to get your life together. Both of your parents had died when you were really young, so just like Kakashi, you had to fend for yourself and grow up quickly. Finally, you were financially and emotionally in a good spot, but something was still missing.

You wanted to have a good relationship with somebody and maybe start a family, but you wanted no one else but Kakashi. You felt like maybe you should give up before you even start, considering he was not going to accept your flirtings or advances. He just wasn’t ready for something like that, and maybe he’d never be ready for it. Kakashi was way too afraid to lose someone else in his life, so he just happily went along and lived alone and contented himself with reading his erotica books for entertainment between training sessions and missions.

Days would go by before you finally decided to go see him. He was hanging out under a tree, watching his team train. You had your hands full with your own team, and they were making decent progress. From what you had heard, Kakashi ended up with the sole member of the Uchiha clan and Naruto Uzumaki as his students, along with a young woman named Sakura. Kakashi definitely had his hands full with this group.

The two young men were at odds with each other with the girl trying to be the mediator. This scene really reminded you of when you and Kakashi were young and he was on his team with Rin and Obito. It was almost like you were looking into the past.

“Kakashi~” You announced your presence. He looked up at you and you could see him smiling under his mask.

“Hi,” Kakashi casually said  as he kept an eye on his team.

You walked over to him and plopped yourself down on the grass near his feet. He stared at you for a moment before crouching down to your level. You smiled at him before ruffling his hair playfully.

“How have you been?” You asked, hoping to talk to him for a little while. Your heart was pounding as you tried to remind yourself why you were really here.

“I’ve been pretty busy. How about yourself?”

You started to talk a bit, mostly about your missions and other things. As you both continued to chat, you noticed his students keeping a watchful eye on both of you. You could tell that these youngsters didn’t think that Kakashi had many friends.

“I was wondering, if you aren’t too busy, you and I could go for some ramen later tonight.” You asked, nervously looking away from Kakashi’s glance.

Kakashi looks down, a blush not apparent on his face due to his mask. “Uhm, I don’t know if I’ll have enough time.” He was making up an excuse, but in reality, he wanted to go with you.

“Oh, well maybe some other time.” You said, trying to hide your disappointment. Kakashi just chuckled nervously and nodded.

“Yeah, sure.” He rubbed the back of his neck and then walked over to his team. You wondered if he was just trying to deflect, but you figured he just wasn’t interested in you at all.

You could imagine your surprise when later that night, there’s a knock at your door and on the other side, it’s Kakashi. He’s got his hands behind his back and he’s looking pretty anxious. You’re very surprised but also pleased to see him.

“What are you doing here?” You asked, hoping he had found the time to go out with you.

“I switched around a few things on my schedule,” he started. “I’m feeling pretty hungry, would you like to get some ramen?” 

You eyed him a little suspiciously, wondering if someone put him up to this. You knew sometimes Gai would egg on Kakashi and make him do some pretty silly things. Yet, you felt a little more at ease when Kakashi said please. Your heart swelled at the thought of him actually wanting to spend some time with you.

The walk to Ramen Ichiraku wasn’t long and you were enjoying the warm night air. Kakashi wasn’t really sure what to say to you, so you mostly just took the lead in the conversation. Finally, you spotted the stall and you challenged Kakashi to a race. He wasn’t ready for that, so you obviously won.

“That wasn’t very fair,” Kakashi teased, but he sat next to you.

“I know, but I won anyway.” You said as you stuck out your tongue. Kakashi chuckled.

You both ordered some ramen and enjoyed each other’s company. It wasn’t often that you got to spend some alone time with Kakashi and you knew it wasn’t going to be possible anytime soon after this. You both had your teams to take care of and they would be taking their Chunin exams very shortly.

As the night went on, you could feel your feelings for Kakashi grow even more. Part of you wanted to pull his mask down and kiss him softly, and the other part of you wanted to run home and cry in bed because you knew he would never want to get into a serious relationship.

The date came to an end way too quickly, and Kakashi offered to walk you home. You happily accepted his offer, knowing that your only chance to tell him how you truly felt would be now or never. You didn’t want it to be never, but you could feel your stomach clench at the thought of confessing.

You stood with your back to your apartment door, watching Kakashi with half-lidded eyes. You weren’t really sure how you could start this conversation, but thankfully Kakashi wasn’t an idiot. He knew you had feelings for him, and he knew for quite some time now.

“Listen, this was really fun, but I don’t know if we could keep doing this.” Kakashi started, and you could already feel your heart wrench.

“Oh, I see. Well, it was nice to spend time with you.” You were already mentally kicking yourself for not telling him how you truly felt and fighting for his affections.

You turned to open your door, but stopped midway and turned back around to face him.

“No, I’m not letting you go.” You stood your ground as Kakashi wasn’t really sure how to react.

“Kakashi, you spend most of your time alone. You’ve never allowed yourself to love someone after what happened with your teammates, but I’ve always been there for you. I know I’m not going to replace Rin or Obito, but I love you.”

Kakashi is a little shocked, but he regained his composure pretty quickly. He leaned in towards you, cupping your face gently. He doesn’t want to break your heart, but he doesn’t think he’s worthy of your love at all. He’s too afraid to lose someone so precious to him once again.

“I can’t do this. You deserve so much more,” Kakashi muttered, and you shake your head no.

“Kakashi, you must really think you’re unlovable, but you truly deserve my love. I want to show you that you can be happy again.” You pressed your forehead to his, looking into his eyes wantonly.

Your fingers traced his face softly before removing his mask and exposing his gorgeous face to you. You had only seen his face fully once or twice, but now it was different. It lit a fire in your belly and you leaned in to kiss him passionately. 

Kakashi didn’t pull away, instead he wrapped his arms around you and pulled you even closer. He knew it was going to take him some time to get used to this kind of treatment, but he wanted to be loved so badly. He needed to be loved, and especially by you.

You pulled away, holding him at arm's length to study his reaction. He’s got a dopey look on his face, but you knew he was a little apprehensive. You pulled him in for a hug, holding him close to you.

“I can’t bring back the people you love, but I can show you how amazing you truly are. I love you so much, and I can’t hide those feelings anymore.” You confessed. Kakashi hummed softly before placing a kiss on the top of your head.

“You are way too amazing for me, love. Are you sure this is what you want?” Kakashi asked, hoping you would change your mind and find someone who was much more full of life and wasn’t so damaged.

“I couldn’t be any more sure of something in my life. I love you.”

He smiled softly, not really sure what to say or how to react. You invited him inside to stay the night and he happily agreed. The rest of the night consisted of you comforting him and reminding him of how much he was worthy of your love.

And Kakashi would never go without love for any longer. For the rest of his life, you would always be there to show him that he wasn’t too damaged or too far gone to be happy.

[searedwood]

30 Day Gay Journal Prompts

This is specifically designed for Pride Month and self celebration, but this can be for literally any other use. Except hate. No hate allowed.

Day 1- Write your preferred name(s), pronouns, nice nouns (nouns you like to be referred to as), and bad nouns (nouns you don't like to be referred to as).

Day 2- Record your triggers, from really bad to not as bad to getting over it. Add any specifications or notes if you feel like you need them. This is so you can identify what makes you uncomfortable or panicked, which will help you be able to identify and avoid a situation in which you may feel threatened, uncomfortable, or panicked.

Day 3- Make a list of signs that you are having a panic attack. This will help you be able to communicate to close friends or family members what may happen in an event you become panicked. This will also help you identify when you're having a panic attack, which will help you be able to calm down. Additionally, record some ways that will help stop the panic attack. For me, some ways of calming down are to go outside, my stuffie, breathing and grounding exercises, comfort music, and puns or jokes.

Day 4- Take some time and think about what makes you happy and relaxed. Write down your comfort music, comfort videos, and comfort characters. If you have a comfort game or movie, include that as well. This is to help you identify a source of calm, relaxation, and happiness that you can easily fall back on if you are uncomfortable or scared.

Day 5- Do some research on LGBTQIA+ labels, flags, and symbols. Write down your gender identity and what it means for you. Write down your sexual and romantic orientations as well, and what they mean for you. Additionally, draw little Pride Flags and symbols beside each label. I drew the genderfaunet flag on the inside cover of my journal, along with corresponding flowers that represent what I see in my identity, as well as what I hope to integrate into myself (Snowdrop - rebirth, Chrysanthemum - truth, Rose leaves - hope, Lilacs - growth/progress, Yarrow - healing, and Narcissus - self love)

Day 6- Write down the titles of your favorite LGBTQIA+ books, movies, TV shows, and games, or titles you want to see/read/play. Do a little digging and find out what titles sound interesting. Supporting LGBTQIA+ creators is a wonderful way to celebrate Pride.

Day 7- Journaling doesn't have to be just writing. Try drawing some LGBTQIA+ inspired art, whether it's just a few doodles, a flag or two, or a beautiful painting. Dedicate this entry to expressing yourself and your identity in a way without words.

Day 8- Write gay poetry. You may not think yourself talented or particularly good at writing poems, but that doesn't mean you should keep yourself from doing it, even for a day. Poetry is a wonderful way to bend language to your will and express yourself in a way that only you have to understand. Write a poem expressing your experience in the LGBTQIA+ community, or a poem detailing your first gay crush. Whatever you feel on your heart today, put it into beautifully unique words.

Day 9- Write about the moment you realized you weren't straight or binary. Alternatively, write about the moment you learned what the LGBTQIA+ community was. Describe your feelings and thoughts in the moment, and reflect over how they have changed and evolved over time.

Day 10- Take a moment and think about where you would be if LGBTQIA+ rights have existed all along, without the need for reform laws or protests. Write down who you think you would be, how you would live, and how easy it would be to do things you can't right now. At the same time, think about the disadvantages. Consider the lack of a fight for freedom and how that may influence your opinion or thoughts.

Day 11- Write a letter to your younger self. Tell your younger self about who you are and who you've become. Give them words of encouragement about the journey ahead. Remind your younger self that no matter what happens, you turn out to be a wonderful and beautiful person.

Day 12- Write a letter to your older self. Detail your present experience as a member/ally of the LGBTQIA+ community. Present your ideas about where the community will be moving forward and how much progress society as a whole will make. Ask yourself some questions, like "How do you celebrate your identity?" Later in the future, you can come back to this letter and respond.

Day 13- Learn some phrases or words of Polari. Polari is a critically endangered language invented by young gay men living in Britain. It was also used by circus men and theatre kids. Few LGBTQIA+ people now know of the language, so there's no better time to try to revive it.

Day 14- Do some research on Pride history. Record interesting or important events that marked the history of the LGBTQIA+ community. What happened at the first Pride Parade? Who was the first advocate for gay and lesbian marriage? What was the LGBTQIA+ community like before it was acceptable to be openly queer?

Day 15- Write a letter to those that are anti-LGBTQIA+. Explain why queer rights are humans rights. Tell them that love is love. Or, if you're feeling like letting loose that anger, just tell them off. This letter is for your eyes only, so don't be afraid to get mean if it makes you feel better.

Day 16- Take a moment and think about how you wish to represent yourself. Do you want to wear skirts and dresses? Do you prefer baggy pants and a puffy jacket? Do you like wearing makeup? How do you style your hair? Record how you currently dress and look and how you wish you could dress and look. Write about how your wishes reflect your identity.

Day 17- Write some ways you can improve on the way you treat yourself. Are you hard on yourself because you just can't make the right grade? Do you obsess over how you don't fit in to your family's standards of gender and sexuality? Give yourself some love and think about how you can be nicer to yourself. Remind yourself that school grades aren't more important than your own needs. Remember that if you are in an unhealthy relationship with friends or family, it isn't your fault.

Day 18- Write about what really makes you feel like yourself. You know better than anyone what your authentic self is. So what is it? What makes you feel really... you?

Day 19- If someone described you, what would they say? This can be anything from physical appearance to personality. This can help you think about how you present yourself to others. Do you want more people to know exactly what gender you identify as? Do you not want people to know what pronouns you prefer?

Day 20- Do some research on neopronouns. If you don't use any, perhaps you'll find a set or three you feel comfortable with (if not, that's fine!) If you can't do your own research, try making up your own set! I sometimes feel semi-feminine, like just a little teaspoon of femininity, but I don't really like she/her pronouns. So, I made for myself a set that sounds similar but isn't quite there. Xe/Xer/Xers/Xerself. The 'x' is pronounced like the 's' in 'measure.' A good way to make sure you know how to use a set of neopronouns in a sentence is to use this example I got from pronouny: Today I went to the park with xer. Xe brought xer frisbee. At least, I think it was xers. By the end of the day, xe was throwing the frisbee to xerself.

Day 21- Have you heard the phrase "black sheep of the herd"? It refers to someone that doesn't really fit in to their social group. In what ways are you the black sheep? Is it because of your identity or orientation? How can you help others to see you aren't different and shouldn't be alienated? How can you encourage people to welcome LGBTQIA+ people to the herd?

Day 22- Imagine you are teaching a class of young children about LGBTQIA+, gender, and sexual/romantic orientations. What would you say? How would you encourage them to be open minded and to explore their own identities?

Day 23- With great Pride comes great hardships. There are many obstacles and difficulties when it comes to finding your true self and figuring out your identity and orientation. What hardships have you overcome? What have you learned from them?

Day 24- One of your friends comes to you about having questions about gender identity. They are questioning their own identity and seek your help and support. List some ways you would help your friend feel supported and loved while also helping them discover their identity.

Day 25- List three things you would do if you weren't afraid. (For me, these would easily be: attending Pride Parades, advocating for queer rights, and coming out)

Day 26- Take your favorite or least favorite LGBTQIA+ ship and rewrite a scene as if they were together, or list some of your favorite queer ships.

Day 27- Discover some gender-neutral terms for things like family members, romantic partners, or honorifics (Mister, Miss, Mx.). If you can't find any you find interesting or comfortable, try creating some of your own. My pibling (parent+sibling) calls me their nibling or nibkid (NB term for sibling's child).

Day 28- Have you ever wanted to write a story? Record an idea or two, or three or four, for LGBTQIA+ stories. They can be anything from lesbian princesses to a coming-of-age trans story. Maybe you'll end up planning out your best seller!

Day 29- Think about what rights aren't granted to LGBTQIA+ people. What are they? Do they directly affect you as well? How do these lack of rights make you feel? What can you do to help advocate for these rights?

Day 30- The last day of Pride Month doesn't mean it's the last day of acceptance and love. How can you spread Pride throughout the year? How can you keep and open mind and heart and advocate for LGBTQIA+ rights? Maybe set a list of goals for yourself, things you want to keep up through the year.

[nerdygaymormon]

I found this article by Nathan Kitchen, president of Affirmation, to be very compelling. 

He identifies 4 generations of gay Mormons that have existed over the past 70 years. Until about 10 or 15 years ago, the Church viewed all LGBT members as having some sort of homosexual feelings that confused gender roles. Consequently, the discussion of generations is going to focus on the treatment of gay members.  

The differences in the generations comes from the Church changing what it asks of the gay member and how it manages the existence of this group in the Church. When current practices are no longer considered acceptable to parents and others, the Church changes, thus creating the next generation. 

Each generation has a different experience with the Church’s prejudice, harassment, and discrimination. 

Nathan doesn’t identify years for each generation, and there aren’t clean breaks between one generation and the next, they bleed into each other, but I’ll put my rough estimate for each generation.

————————————————————

1st Generation (1950~1980) - The Church believed anyone could develop gay feelings and attractions, these were sinful and Church required complete rejection of these attractions. Failure to completely erase these feelings was grounds for discipline and expulsion. The church schools and most LDS families would also eject the queer person from their midst, they feared the spread of these attractions to others. Attempts to remove these “tendencies” included electro-shock therapy at BYU. Spencer W. Kimball’s book the Miracle of Forgiveness dominated Church thinking on queer topics in the era.

This is the generation that spans the most decades and consequently is the largest generation of queer Saints. This generation was taught their attractions could change if they wanted it bad enough. The violence and hostility against these individuals caused a great deal of trauma and many perished. After breaking these people, the Church washed its hands of them by ejecting them from membership, therefore removing the need to deal with the consequences of its actions in those lives.

2nd Generation (1980~2000) - Rather than insist on complete erasure of homosexual feelings (the church thought all queer identities came down to homosexuality), it employed the idea of secrecy and to act like heterosexuals. This is the invisible generation because their bishops told them to never tell anyone else. This group felt isolated and alone, hidden from other members and each other. This invisibility allowed other members to believe there were no gay people in the Church, certainly not in their congregation. This generation was encouraged to enter mixed-orientation marriages, have kids and live like a straight person and everything would be alright. If it didn’t work out, then you weren’t strong enough.

These members served in Young Women’s, as bishops, Relief Society presidencies, on the High Council, and so on. Some of them still exist in the Church, hidden from everyone because the cost of coming out is so high and the shame they have about their attractions (the Church didn’t distinguish much between feelings and actions, so these people feel bad for things they’ve never done). Every so often, we’ll hear about a former mission president or stake president who finally comes out after decades of living as a straight person.

Most of the mixed-orientation marriages failed, the queer person eventually spoke their truth, picked up the pieces of their shattered dreams, and moved on. When it became clear that a straight marriage with a straight spouse didn’t fix them, the Church moved on, usually offering support to the divorced straight spouse and rejecting the queer spouse. 

3rd Generation (2000~2015) - The Church decided gay thoughts aren’t a problem, but gay actions are. The Church encouraged people to use the term “same-sex attraction (SSA)” as a way to avoid queer identities that’s don’t fit in the Church’s view of God’s Plan. Basically, we’re all straight people and some of us are struggling with unwanted attractions. SSA was compared to addictions. Queer people no longer had to remain hidden, so they found each other and attended conferences together and encouraged each other. Members would admire you for your wrestle against SSA.

Being unable to ‘overcome’ their SSA was distressing. Although the Church no longer officially endorsed mixed-orientation marriages, many local leaders still encouraged these but with full disclosure to the straight spouse, even though these couples don’t really understand what they’re signing up for. Many queer people turned to conversion therapy to change (usually not knowing there was no evidence these programs worked or were even based in proven techniques or methods, and resulted in higher suicide rates & mental health issues). 

Because they were trying to make this path work and were admired for it, these queer members mostly didn’t share their struggles & mental health challenges with their family, friends, or other members. Unlike the 2nd generation, they were visible, but largely were kept silent. A generation seen but not heard. 

4th Generation (2015~present) - Instead of being required to change their orientation, or keep it secret, or to nobly struggle against their inner core, today’s generation is told it’s okay to identify as gay, lesbian and bisexual. There’s nothing wrong with your attractions. We want you at church, there’s a place for you here. You belong. We celebrate you by sharing videos and publishing books about single, celibate members who are gay and bi. We reject conversion therapy, no violence, no denying identities, no encouraging mixed-orientation marriages. We celebrate you...as long as you are single & celibate. 

We have many gay couples who think they’re loved enough and belong enough that they attend church together, they sit together, they’re dating and things seem okay. Once they marry, the swiftness & ferocity with which their leaders take action against them is stunning. The couple finds the warm, fuzzy messages of belonging actually hide a structure that’s still as prejudiced and discriminatory as the past. What is their place in the Church...they’re allowed to attend as visitors.

This approach held onto a lot of families, but increasingly it’s not enough. As the queer child grows up and becomes interested in love and relationships, church no longer works. And if church is not welcoming and affirming of their queer child, more and more entire families exit with them. Generation Z grew up with queer friends and many cite the Church’s treatment of LGBTQIA+ people as a reason they are leaving the Church.

————————————————————

As society changes and becomes more accepting, the Church has to change how it treats its queer members. What was acceptable in the 1970′s is now looked at with horror and revulsion. Today’s parents would never subject their child to electrical shocks or induced nausea, how barbaric.

The changes the Church has made is in how it treats the gay member, not in how it views them nor in what it preaches about them. They’re still absent from God’s Plan, or as I prefer to put it, absent from the Church’s version of God’s Plan. Because the Church has not substantially changed how it views queer people, it’s going to continue to find how it treats queer people will fail. 

The Church treats queer members far better than it did in the past, but until it actually embraces queer members, listens to their voices and what they want, the Church will adjust, and adjust again. Not hating us is not enough, the Church must learn to love us. 

[chocoholicannanymous]

If the Spit Hits the Fan (Glee) Part XV

Follows pt I, pt II, pt III, pt IV, pt V, part VI, pt VII, part VIII, part IX, part X, part XI, part XII, part XIII and part XIV.

Being Sebastian's boyfriend really isn't that much different from being his friend. They do a lot of the same things, and talk about the same stuff, only now there's hand-holding and kissing and cuddling with it. Apart from the touching though? Nothing really changes much.

Which kind of makes it sound like how it was with Blaine.

It's not though.

Sebastian will hold his hand in the hallway without worrying about being seen. And yes, Dalton is different from McKinley – so, so much different, and safer – but Blaine even hesitated to hold Kurt's hand in the choir room, surrounded by friends.

Sebastian kisses him in a way that never leaves Kurt doubting there's attraction, and has to stop his hands from wandering too far on a regular basis – yet never making Kurt worry he won't stop.

Sebastian makes Kurt have to stop himself, both from allowing it and from doing his own wandering. They're still too new to go there, no matter how much Kurt's hormones sit up and beg every time Sebastian touches him. (They'll get there, Kurt's sure, just... Step by step, and not yet.)

Sebastian reaches out for Kurt without looking – sometimes seemingly without thinking – to pull him close, and always makes a space for him.

And when Sebastian sings, it's with Kurt, or for him, not at him.

It's a far cry from scheduled make-outs and avoiding even PG13 levels of PDA and being made to feel like his boyfriend is more interested in his own hand than in Kurt.

It's amazing.

There's a rainbow rose hanging on Kurt's door on Valentine's day. He and Sebastian have been dating for two days – a day and a half, if he was to be picky – and Kurt knows from last year's insanity that there's not a flower shop within two hours of Vesterville that carries rainbow roses. They have to be ordered special, and with a lot more warning than two days.

Kurt's not the least bit ashamed about how he squeals, or how he turns on his heel and kisses his boyfriend (!) for long enough to be a little dizzy afterwards.

This isn't to say that Sebastian is a perfect boyfriend. He's not. Then again, neither is Kurt. He's working from romantic movies and the examples from the New directions, and of course from his time with Blaine. Neither is a good road map. Romantic movies have so many flaws Kurt don't really want to examine, and a lot of his favorites are set too far back in time to be useful as guidelines. The loves lives of his old glee mates are...well. They're flawed too, when seen without rose-colored glasses and envy.

As for his relationship with Blaine... Even if he's not counting how it ended that relationship was so very less than perfect, and honestly it was both their faults. Kurt's not without blame, he knows that and can admit it without somehow pretending what Blaine did wrong never happened.

So he's trying to learn from his mistakes, and other people's mistakes, and he does his best to communicate with Sebastian – who does the same in return.

Also, no one can say that they don't argue. They definitely do. They have from the beginning, and they're both opinionated passionate people, so why should they stop now? Their relationship has changed – they themselves haven't.

It's just that they manage to argue in a way that works. That doesn't makes Kurt pull out his claws to eviscerate Sebastian, that doesn't scare Kurt, or make him give in to “preserve the peace”. That, right there, was one of the things that had sent his relationship with Blaine down the wrong turn. When he'd first told his dad that he'd begun dating Blaine Burt Hummel had told him never to go to bed angry with his partner. He'd meant to sort out arguments and disagreements, but Kurt had interpreted it as needing to back down and push down his anger or hurt. With Sebastian he doesn't.

They argue, because that's who – and how – they are, but they do it in as mature and healthy way as they are able to, being teenagers. And they apologize if they step over the line. Not Kurt apologizes, regardless, with Sebastian pouting until he does, but both of them.

If Kurt had to, he'd call it damned near perfect. Instead he'll just say it's good, and he's happy.

That's never something to look down on.

The week of Regionals is weird. Kurt's never felt as prepared or as calm with a competition approaching, which is rather telling. The rest of the Warblers are a different story though. Kurt has made it clear that his primary goal is to beat the Troubletones, and his friends are feeling the pressure. They even ask if Kurt and Sebastian won't reconsider singing 'Human Nature'.

“Look, guys, I'm honored, really, that you would trust me, us like that. But I want to win more than I want that solo. And even if we ignore the fact that Ohio doesn't seem ready for a gay duet, I really do think the setlist we have is stronger as is. The Troubletones have a great presence, and both Mercedes and Santana are awesomely talented. However, everything about the Troubletones are built around them. The rest of the girls are background and dancing. If we go on with a number that's the same they are going to win, for no other reason than that most people find girls prettier and nicer to look at.

“But if we go on as an actual choir, for a show choir competition? We'll win. I'm sure of it. We've worked so hard with our songs, and I wouldn't change a thing about our setlist.”

And it's true. They have an amazing setlist, and everything flows in a way that makes Kurt feel practically professional, and he's not giving that – and its chance to win – up to stare longingly at Sebastian while singing a song that exposes them to the core.

No. Kurt's going to have quite a lot more time in the spotlight than he'd expected when turning down a proper solo. He's going to sing with his friends, and his boyfriend, and he's going to show McKinley what it means to be a team onstage.

The Troubletones are just as amazing onstage as Kurt thought. They've done a good job picking their songs, and Mercedes still has the best voice he's ever heard live. Santana's not quite as talented, but give her the right song – which these are – and she'll blow your mind. Their choreography showcases the girls poached from the Cheerios without making Mercedes look too far behind, and their clothes look good.

Kurt would vote for them any day, even with Rachel being given a place in the background, except this one. This is going to be his day. He meets Sebastians eyes as they line up and nods.

Showtime.

'I want You Back' does exactly what it's meant to, namely getting the audience in a party mood. As the last notes flows into the first from 'Man in the Mirror' the mood shifts and Kurt feels his own shift with it. His solo feels a little raw, because in no way can he sing those lines without being reminded of all the crap he's gone through over the past 6 months.

“...a willow deeply scared, somebody's broken heart and a washed out dream...”

Well. His heart might have been broken, and his dreams about Blaine did wash out. But he's got new dreams, and his hearts healed, and no matter the scars he's whole where it matters. And even if he wasn't? He's looking in the mirror, and he's changing.

They bring the party back with their last song, giving their all transforming the sounds of 'Beat It' to sounds that can be reproduced by the human throat. The dancing is the most demanding Kurt's ever done onstage, and he knows he will definitely be beat after. But they look and sound awesome, and that's all that matters.

Or maybe not, he ruefully thinks as he sees Finn on his feet, jumping up and down and whooping as the Warblers are proclaimed the winners and Rachel looks like she's been pelted with eggs again.

“You stole our songs!”

Of course. All Kurt wants to do is get on the bus, go back to Dalton and celebrate. Okay, shower, then celebrate. So naturally Rachel is waiting to ambush him. Well, that's not going to go the way she's probably thinking.

“Really? Really Rachel, you're going there? You know very well that we didn't steal anything. Oh, I know that there was a suggestion that the New Directions do Michael for Sectionals, but I also know that you were the one who refused to accept it.

“You really blew it there. Michael is a great choice for Sectionals or Regionals, what with the Ohio mindset, and I'm pretty sure you would have won with the setlist the guys suggested. I'm not surprised you put a stop to it though.”

Rachel draws back, looking first shocked, then insulted, then finally like an angry goose, complete with hissing sound. He's not letting it touch him though, lets it run over him, one might say, like water over a goose.

“There are no songs in Michael Jacksons discography that's a given for you, no certainty that you'll be featured. And in the end, that's what mattered, wasn't it? Not that the New Directions won, but that you won. You wanted to beat the Troubletones, didn't you? Wanted to show that you were better than Mercedes, wanted to prove that her beating you when auditioning for Maria was just a fluke. Wanted to prove what everyone knows, that's she's every bit as good as you, and sometimes better, is wrong.

“Well, congratulations. You got what you wanted in terms of the setlist and the spotlight, but you fucked up everything else. And not just for you, but for everyone.”

An expression of pain flies across Rachel's face, and he pushes the knife in a little bit further.

“We weren't as blind though. The minute Finn told me about the Michael setlist I knew it was a winner. As did the other Warblers. I asked Finn first, and Sam and Puck. They didn't think we needed their permission, as you didn't use the songs, but they gave it any way.”

Kurt looks at Rachel, looks at the way she's still fuming, still refusing to see any other side than her own. It won't matter what he says – she'll keep ignoring any and all arguments against her. Once he might have tried harder to make her understand, but as things are he just wants to leave. His boyfriend's waiting and that makes Kurt out of time to spend on his former friend.

“Your loss, our gain.”

He starts to leave, but thinks better of it. He's got one more jab in him.

“Oh, and Rachel? Don't worry. Going to Nationals is a privilege, and we won't waste it. We've already gotten started on a setlist.”

It's petty, but. So's she.

That evening the Warblers celebrate as thoroughly as a bunch of uniformed boys in a well-staffed boarding school can. This means that it's late when Kurt drags Sebastian to his room (unlike him Sebastian's in a single), but neither of them is under the influence of anything but happiness.

That's important to Kurt as they tumble into Sebastian's bed while kissing, because he doesn't want there to be any doubt in Sebastian's mind that when Kurt pulls off his shirt and then goes for his fly it's because he wants to.

Having Sebastian stop him is frustrating, to say the very least.

“Hey, what are you doing?”

It's only the fact that it's Sebastian, and that he's shown himself trustworthy in so many ways over the past months that stops Kurt from storming out.

“I thought we... You know?”

It's so hard to say, to open himself up like this, years of being told he's a predator, or ugly, or plain wrong getting just as much in his way as the fact that he's never done this, and the only time he's been even close wasn't even about him.

Apparently he's going to have to use his words regardless, because Sebastian's not taking the opening.

“I thought we could have sex.” There. Words. Consent. Door wide open.

And yet Sebastian's still not taking the opening.

“What's the hurry?”

Kurt pulls back a little, hurt blooming.

“No, no, don't. Talk to me, okay? I'm a bit surprised I guess. We haven't even been dating for two months yet, and I know this is new for you.”

“So? It's not like I'm waiting for marriage.”

Kurt knows he sounds a bit snippy, and he has sort of been waiting – not for marriage, but for something, some feeling of more. He's got that feeling with Sebastian, so what's the point of waiting any longer? Everyone else his age (or so it feels) is having sex so why can't he?

Some of it must bleed through because Sebastian gets that “aha” look, and nods a bit.

“Look, regardless of what I might have said or implied when chasing Blaine, I'm actually not the whore of Babylon. I have, however, rounded a few bases and enjoyed them. I think you'd enjoy them too, and I would love to find out first hand. But that doesn't have to mean we go straight to fucking.” Kurt blushes, because he might be ready to do it, but those words...

“So. I'm not going to push, and I'm not going to rush. I am more than interested though, I'm just happy to take it a bit slow. To build up to every step. As far as I'm concerned you've earned that.”

Sebastian's looking so earnest it kills Kurt annoyance, and then lightning-quick it's replaced by a vicked look than makes him shiver all over.

“I wouldn't mind showing you the first of many, many bases now though. How about it, babe?”

Kurt doesn't mind either, neither then nor the next day.

[willexxmercer]

Willie’s Backstory

We don’t know much about Willie’s life, but here’s my take on it for Willie Appreciation Week - Day 2.  It’s not so much a fic as it is a series of headcanons written in prose, which is why i’ve opted to post it here on tumblr instead of ao3.  You’ll find it under the cut below!

Warnings: mentions of Willie’s canonical death, implied car crash, implications of Willie having (undiagnosed) ADHD

Taglist: @screamin-amuseum @thedepthsofhell @iridescentkippen @owenmercers @oldsmobile-hotdogs @phanhowell @williexmercer @lyxchen @chickwiththepurpleguitar @sk8rwillie @mynameisntluke @julieandthequeers @fairylightsandrainydays @burntchromas @itsthebooks @fireflyingaway @sunsetcurbed @thegirlfulloffandoms @bluedarkness @themongosianhorse @angelofarts  @kikikiwi27498 @imratking @21st-century-sweetheart @bowtiesareavenged

A Life Before

Life at the Hollywood Ghost Club wasn’t so bad.  Willie had a place to live and people to talk to.  More than that, though, Willie felt a sense of belonging.

Growing up, Willie didn’t have it bad, necessarily.  His father wasn’t in the picture, but his mother more than made up for it.  He was her little duckling growing up; they did everything together and Willie never felt like he was necessarily lacking anything.  In the best way Adele Ortega knew how, she loved her son.  It was hard to find work, though, especially as a single mother, and they weren’t able to keep a steady home.  Willie grew up living out of a suitcase, moving between motels and short term rental apartments in the dingiest parts of town, never having a place to call his own.

One of the bonuses of moving around so much was that Willie learned very quickly how to make friends.  He had a natural talent for convincing even the surliest of truckers at the motel to talk to him and show him the inside of their cab.  The employees all loved him, and he loved them back.

See, his mother raised him to be open and welcoming and kind.  No matter what, he would use his manners and be respectful, and that was what he did.  At school, Willie was friends with everyone, including the teachers, even if he didn’t get the highest grades.

After all, it’s hard to do homework while a drunk couple screams at each other in the next room.

When he was eight, his mother introduced him to painting one night.  They were in a new motel, and Willie couldn’t sit still no matter how hard he tried.  After he came in from running around the building, she had a canvas and some paint set up.  When he questioned it, she merely smiled and sat back on the bed, telling him he could paint whatever he wanted.

His first painting was a collage of colours that covered the entire canvas.  They hung it in every room they stayed in after that.

Art quickly became something Willie loved.  He would spend hours with a piece of paper and markers, or canvas and paint.  His mother would spend her spare change getting him new art supplies.  It kept him calm; it gave him something to do when all he wanted to do was bounce around the room.  It became his happy place.

It was a teenager who introduced him to skateboarding when Willie was thirteen, rolling along the sidewalk outside the motel.  Jake was fifteen, with shaggy hair.  He wore a muscle shirt, and a ripped denim jacket, and he was cool.  Willie spent every evening outside with Jake the entire week he stayed at the motel, learning how to skate.  More than skateboarding, though, Willie learned something possibly even more important about himself.

He had always considered the girls in his school to be nice, but he never liked to talk about them the way the other boys in his school did.  In fact, he usually joined the girls in gossiping about other boys.  It wasn’t until he was standing on the pavement, though, watching Jake explain how to do an ollie with his hair moving a bit in the wind and his muscles showing, that Willie realized he wasn’t even listening to the older boy’s explanation.

Nothing came of his crush on Jake, of course.  When the older boy’s family left, Willie stared longingly at the RV as it pulled out of the parking lot.  His mother asked him why he was so upset, since seeing people come and go was so commonplace, but Willie didn’t have an answer.

Thinking she understood, his mother got him a skateboard for Christmas that year.  Willie gladly accepted it as a memory of his first crush.

By the time Willie reached high school, Adele finally got a permanent job at an office in Winnipeg.  They moved into a quaint little mobile home on the outskirts of the city, and Willie was looking forward to being able to live a more normal life.  As a teenager, he was excited to do the things Jake had talked about.  Teenager things.  Staying out late, going to the drive in with his friends, that sort of thing.

It was as if a switch was flipped.  The rules changed.  Now that Willie was a teenager, Adele seemed terrified that something would happen to him, so she started putting restrictions on him.  It started with a 10pm curfew, then he couldn’t go downtown unless he let her know exactly where he was at all times.  It was as if she realized he was getting older and had more options open to him; it was probably even perpetuated by her coworkers at the office.  Willie wasn’t a kid standing outside a motel talking to a trucker, anymore.  Willie was fifteen.

It was suffocating.  There was so much Willie wanted to do, and his mother wouldn’t let him do any of it.

Their relationship suffered as a result.  Willie challenged his mother every chance he could, pushing the boundaries.  He stayed out past his curfew, and at seventeen, he came home on Saturday with a tattoo.  A small one, mind you, a skateboard on his wrist, but a tattoo nonetheless.  It was art, Willie argued.  It was just another way to express himself.

His mother disagreed.

His grades kept slipping at school not because he didn’t know the material, but because he couldn’t focus long enough to complete assignments or tests.  That was another point of contention between him and his mother, who tried to take away his skateboard when he failed grade 11 Math for the second time in a row - their argument lasted over an hour, and Willie avoided his mother for a week afterwards.  The only class he seemed to thrive in was Art, of course, but now Adele was looking for him to decide on a career path.  Art wasn’t a career, not in her mind, even if it was one of the things Willie was really good at.

At the age of eighteen, Willie spent most of his time hanging out at the skate park with a group of older boys.  He had learned very quickly that it was best not to mention that he was gay, given the political climate, and that it was better to play along when the boys started whistling at girls.  He hated it, but it was the only way to protect himself.

And then it happened.

Willie was heading home from the park late at night, helmet loose on his head, the strap undone, when a car came out of nowhere.

The last thing he remembered was the screams from the driver as she realized she had hurt someone.

So yeah, the Hollywood Ghost Club, in all honesty, was one of the best things that could have happened to Willie, given the circumstances.  Caleb found him about a year after his death and lured him in with the promise of a community.  He visited his mother a few times, but it was always too hard.  It was easier to spend his time with Caleb and the other ghosts, with whom, of course, he immediately become friends.  He learned to dance with Tatiana, a cute blonde who quickly became one of his best friends.  Diana, Tatiana’s other best friend, was a little less sure about him.

Honestly, though, that was fair.  Willie took a while to warm up to Diana too.  It wasn’t until he showed her the tattoo on his wrist and told her why he had gotten it that she opened up.  While Tatiana and Willie could chat for ages about the silliest things, he talked to Diana about the serious topics in his (after)life.

He had mixed feelings about Caleb at first.  He was the man who had found him, who had explained everything there was to know about being a ghost.  At the same time, though, there was something about him that was unsettling.  Willie pushed those thoughts aside, though.  As the years went by, he grew to trust Caleb more than anyone else at the club.  He was positive there was nothing that Caleb could do wrong.

A place to live, people who cared about him, and a sense of belonging.  That was all Willie could have ever wanted.

[panharmonium]

do you ever just sit and think about this

mizuki telling iruka that naruto is going to take revenge on the village for lying about the fox, and iruka replying “no...naruto isn’t like that” orochimaru telling kakashi that sasuke is an avenger whose heart desires only one thing, and kakashi replying “you think you can take advantage of that?  not sasuke.”

iruka thinking “naruto...he’s just like i was back then”

gai thinking “he reminds me of you, kakashi...when you were young”

mizuki manipulating naruto for his own benefit (“he used you to get the scroll for himself, for his own power!”) and using a big reveal (“they’ve been lying to you your whole life, naruto”) to damage naruto’s trust in the person who’s actually trying to help him

madara doing the exact same thing with sasuke

kakashi telling iruka “actually, you are the only one who can reach naruto’s heart/i believe if you can just hang in there a little longer, you will find the way”

kakashi later being put in a position where he’s the only adult who has a chance of getting through to sasuke...the only adult who even bothers to try

kakashi telling iruka that reaching naruto is “your personal ordeal,” the task he’s meant to complete, the task that he isn’t allowed to quit, even when he goes to the hokage to try and resign 

sakumo telling kakashi “it seems you have unfinished business waiting for you back home/there must be something you’re still meant to do” as kakashi gets yanked out of the afterlife, because kakashi is living out his own personal ordeal now and he isn’t allowed to quit either

i know you have your reasons, but as your teacher i can’t just walk away

i know that’s how you feel, naruto (i *do* know how you feel)

i’m in charge of this child’s safety (i’ll protect you with my life) 

he’s going home with me.

i think about this a Lot.  in particular, i think about the ways in which the ability to make (or not make, as the case may be) a connection to a single trusted adult has such a dramatic effect on the trajectories that naruto and sasuke’s lives take later.

naruto finds “his” grown-up - someone who’s lived the same life he has and who can understand him in a way that others can’t - and that in turn leads him to more connections, more adults to look after him, an entire surrogate family to believe in him/support him/make him feel like he belongs.  sasuke, for his part, also finds “his” grown-up - but in his case, the situation is much more complicated, and he’s never able to reap the attendant benefits.  events conspire to send him running before he can become truly connected to a loving community, and so he never has a chance to build the larger support system that naruto does.  he never finds a jiraiya or a tsunade or a yamato or a bunch of animal sages to give him guidance or a class of peers to fight for him or a village to admire him and protect him.  he has no support network.  every adult he’s met since leaving the Leaf has been someone who’s trying to exploit him, and the instant he realizes that he might be starting to feel the faintest connection to taka, he ditches them.  to this day, the only friends he’s ever made (and i use that term loosely, because even when sasuke was still in the Leaf his relationships weren’t a first priority for him) are sakura and naruto.  and the ONLY adult he’s ever had a true connection with, post-massacre, is kakashi.

sasuke’s going to need all three of these people if he’s going to survive, but i’m focusing on kakashi in this particular piece, because if ever there were a kid who desperately needed a trusted adult to help them navigate their life, sasuke is it.  sasuke has been left to his own devices for years and years (everybody remember that time when a seven year old who witnessed the mass murder of his entire extended family was allowed to wake up ALONE in a hospital room and walk out of the building and revisit the crime scene without anyone noticing he was gone?  i do!).  he has never had an adult to take care of him or help him process the things that happened to him in a semi-healthy way, and nowadays he’s a disaster driving itself off a cliff.  he has zero coping skills that aren’t completely self-destructive.  he won’t accept advice or assistance from anybody who doesn’t understand what he’s going through (and understandably so - why should he listen to anybody who isn’t feeling what he’s feeling, who hasn’t lost the way he’s lost?  what can they possibly have to offer him?).  he needs somebody who can come to him from a place of credibility, someone who can say “i *do* know how you feel” and not be talking out their ass.  that’s what naruto gets from iruka when they finally make their connection - a relationship with an adult who accepts him and believes in him and (most importantly of all) understands him.  that’s naruto’s first step on the way to him reaching the place he inhabits now, where the lonely and shunned orphan he used to be is beloved by everyone, blessed with multiple parental figures, and supported by innumerable friends both at home and abroad.  meeting an adult who could say “we’re the same” and have it genuinely be true instead of just empty talk is what allows naruto to finally feel like he isn’t alone.  it’s what enables him to eventually become part of a community.  

naruto has these opportunities because he finds His Person - a mentor and caretaker who can say with complete honesty “we’re the same.”  sasuke found someone like that, too, and in truth he still has that person chasing after him, but circumstances being what they are, he hasn’t been able to benefit from that relationship the same way naruto has.  he was removed from kakashi’s supervision at the exact moment when he needed it most (and at the exact moment where they had just broken new ground in their relationship), and because of that, he’s remained incredibly isolated.  naruto has steadily accumulated friends and comrades (and five different people to be his dad), but sasuke has connected with no one.  he’s completely alone.  he is - as neji aptly put it - in the darkness right now, and he’s in there all by himself, without friends to support him, and without the only adult who can point him in the right direction.  

honestly, the only thing that makes me feel better about this is knowing that sasuke still has these people waiting for him whenever he comes home.  it’s high time he was able to have his own iruka and benefit from the same network of loving connections that naruto was able to build.

[melanielocke]

Lost in the Shadows - Chapter 9

AO3

Chapter 1

Chapter 2

Chapter 3

Chapter 4

Chapter 5

Chapter 6

Chapter 7

Chapter 8

Taglist: @nott-the-best @foxglove-airmid @alastair-esfandiyar-carstairs1 @justanormaldemon @styxdrawings @ipromiseiwillwrite

Curious question: why do you think the creature Benedict owed a debt to chose Jesse over Thomas?

‘Why is Mario Kart so difficult?’ Cordelia groaned.

‘It’s not difficult, you just need to play more often,’ Lucie said.

Alastair and Cordelia hadn’t really grown up playing video games, and Lucie had discovered both sucked at playing Mario Kart. Lucie was typically more of a Legend of Zelda fan, but they couldn’t play that together, so she’d suggested Mario Kart instead.

They spent most of their time in and around the house, taking the occasional walk. Lucie hadn’t seen Jesse again, despite searching for him, nor had they gotten any closer to discovering what was going on. They’d visited the ruins of a castle nearby one day, but it hadn’t worked as a distraction. Steve’s body had been found and the lake was open for swimming again, but Lucie wasn’t sure she wanted to. What had happened to the child could easily happen to them.

‘I don’t think I’ll ever get good at this,’ Cordelia said as she drove her kart of the track again.

If anything, Lucie was glad to be able to spend more time with Cordelia, even under such circumstances. Lucie still had no plan on how to tell Cordelia how she really felt, but then neither did Thomas have one for Alastair despite their daily walks and obvious affection on Alastair’s side. Alastair was mostly with the Lightwoods, trying to get into Gideon’s memory and find out what Benedict really had been up to.

‘This is nothing. James and I used to play Mario Kart on the wii and I think that version of Rainbow Road is the most difficult track they ever made.’

‘I don’t think I want to know,’ Cordelia announced.

Cordelia checked her phone once they’d finished the race and scrolled through several messages.

‘Alastair said they haven’t figured out yet what creature Benedict made a deal with, but Thomas went into the village to the grocery store and there he saw his aunt Tatiana,’ Cordelia said.

Lucie checked her phone for any additional messages, but she’d received the same messages. Thomas apparently had made a Whatsapp group titled ‘Making sure I don’t die’ where they were writing out all the information they had. He’d made a secondary group called ‘spam’ without their parents in there where they could talk about things that weren’t essential or make plans, to keep the other group clean. Lucie guessed that made sense. Cordelia changed the name of the first group to “Essential information to save Thomas”.

‘That’s a better name,’ Lucie commented out loud.

‘Exactly,’ Cordelia said. ‘Now we have one place we dump all useful information and can easily find everything, with a fitting name.’

‘I wonder why Tatiana would be here,’ Lucie said. ‘Thomas seeing her and Jesse appearing after years, that can’t be a coincidence. Perhaps Jesse is wherever she’s staying, perhaps there I could talk to him.’

‘Would she let you in though?’ Cordelia asked.

‘Probably not,’ Lucie said, but she had an idea. ‘We could break in.’

‘We don’t even know where she’s staying,’ Cordelia pointed out. ‘That is a terrible idea.’

‘Uncle Gideon is looking into where she’s staying right now,’ Lucie said. ‘Perhaps if he finds out where she is, we can go take a look. In the meantime though…’

‘Please no more Mario Kart,’ Cordelia begged.

Lucie ended up introducing Cordelia to Legend of Zelda after all, opting to watch her play through the beginning of Breath of the Wild. It was clear Cordelia wasn’t used to gaming at all, but she did seem to enjoy it, even if she fell off several cliffs and died a few times because she didn’t remember in time which button was for attacking.

Lucie regularly checked her phone, until Thomas texted her his father had returned, and had found Tatiana. Apparently she was staying at a hotel, but had gotten very angry when she’d seen her brother. Lucie wondered if she knew they were all staying here. It seemed too much of a coincidence.

She googled the hotel Thomas had named and realized she’d seen it on the drive here. There was a restaurant downstairs, and Lucie figured that might be a way in. They had several vegan options too. If she and Cordelia had dinner there, they might be able to sneak inside the hotel itself. Getting inside a room without making too much noise could prove challenging though. Although Cordelia carried cortana and that sword was said to be able to cut through anything. Perhaps she could cut into a lock. That’d be suspicious when Tatiana found out, but she didn’t know about cortana, did she?

‘I have a plan,’ Lucie announced. ‘We’re going to have dinner at the restaurant of the hotel Tatiana is staying.’

‘Do you think Jesse will show up in the middle of a restaurant?’ Cordelia asked.

‘Not really,’ Lucie said. ‘But from there we can sneak into the hotel, and break into Tatiana’s room.’

Cordelia frowned. ‘And if we get caught? We could get in serious trouble.’

Lucie had to admit Cordelia had a point. Neither of them were skilled at breaking in.

‘If we’re only in the corridor, we could always say we got lost,’ Lucie speculated.

‘I’m not so sure they would believe me,’ Cordelia said. ‘Although if you go without me, perhaps you could claim you were looking for a bathroom. Still, going there without actually breaking in anywhere might be a good idea to get a sense of the place, see if anything unusual is going on simply because Tatiana’s there.’

Lucie understood why Cordelia wasn’t willing to take such risks, they were a lot less likely to believe she’d simply gotten lost as a woman of color. She had to admit, her plan was a bit reckless, so perhaps it was a good thing Cordelia was here to talk some sense into her. Still, Lucie was determined to find a way to speak to Jesse. Who knew, maybe he would show up at the restaurant if his mother was there. Or perhaps not, perhaps he haunted the woods instead. Ghosts were nothing if not inconsistent.

‘Good point,’ Lucie said. ‘I don’t think my mother would be very happy if we broke in either.’

‘Alastair would murder us,’ Cordelia added.

‘Good thing he’s with Thomas,’ Lucie said, and she texted to Thomas that he should invite Alastair over for dinner. Lucie wasn’t so sure he would without some encouragement even if he very much wanted Alastair to stay.

Lucie wondered if Thomas was making any progress with him, perhaps that was difficult considering the circumstances. On the other hand, if Lucie had learnt anything from her favorite books was that a crisis was the perfect time to find love. What could possibly be more romantic than Alastair saving Thomas’ life? Lucie thought for a moment and then texted Thomas again.

Lucie: Have you kissed him yet?

Thomas: No, of course not. I don’t even know if he likes me!!!

Lucie: You could ask.

Lucie knew she was being hypocritical, she hadn’t yet told Cordelia how she felt about her. However, Thomas’ chances with Alastair were much better than her chances with Cordelia. Alastair was openly gay and Lucie had caught him staring at Thomas with both affection and desire.

Thomas: How am I supposed to do that???

Thomas: I did invite him over for dinner though. He accepted and my parents are very happy that he did.

Lucie: Time to make your move (;

‘Alastair is staying with Thomas for dinner,’ Lucie said.

‘I’m glad they’re spending time together,’ Cordelia said. ‘Alastair has so few friends. For most of his life he only knew how to antagonize people or push them away.’

‘Yes, he and Thomas seem to like each other,’ Lucie said. ‘Alastair broke up with his boyfriend not so long ago, right?’

‘He did, but maybe don’t mention that in his presence,’ Cordelia said. ‘It was a very bad and unhealthy relationship and Alastair is still struggling with coming to terms with that. He doesn’t often want to talk about it, and only on his terms.’

Lucie imagined that might make it more difficult for him and Thomas. In her favorite books, a good relationship usually fixed any trauma from a previous bad one, but she knew that in real life that wasn’t the case. Of course, in books it wasn’t uncommon for the new “better” relationship to still be pretty toxic, with the main difference that it was unintentional on the author’s part and therefore never acknowledged.

Lucie herself had made such mistakes in her own stories before, writing relationships she later realized were very toxic. In her early teens people would always tell her boys were mean to her because they liked her and she’d believed that until she’d discussed that with her mother, who disagreed.

‘I’m sorry that happened to him,’ Lucie said.

‘Yes, me too,’ Cordelia said. ‘Wait, do you think Alastair likes Thomas? Is that why you keep trying to get them to spend time together?’

‘At least I think they would be good friends, since they have such similar interests,’ Lucie said. ‘But it’s definitely possible Alastair likes Thomas. I wouldn’t blame him, Thomas is a sweet guy and has nice shoulders. Legendary shoulders, in fact.’

Cordelia started laughing. ‘Legendary shoulders.’

‘Precisely. As a lesbian, I can be very objective when it comes to men’s shoulders.’

Cordelia frowned, but Lucie insisted that made perfect sense. Since she didn’t feel attracted to men or fall in love with them, she had a very objective view and didn’t play favorites with the ones she did like.

‘A year ago I might have favored James,’ Cordelia mused. ‘I don’t think we were well suited though.’

Lucie loved her brother, and they’d always gotten along well, but James could be an idiot. She understood James didn’t like Alastair considering their history, but he simply didn’t understand that he should not bring Cordelia, who loved her brother and worried for him, into their history and that he shouldn’t say bad things about him in Cordelia’s presence. Perhaps Cordelia and James might have worked out better if their complicated feelings towards Alastair weren’t in the way. Alastair was Cordelia’s brother and James should have respected that.

‘Perhaps not,’ Lucie said. ‘I’m glad you can still be around each other though, and aren’t ready to murder each other at any given time like some exes. That would have been awkward.’

‘He apologized, a few months after we broke up. A bit late, but I think all your advice finally got through,’ Cordelia said. ‘I don’t resent him, and I understand why he doesn’t like Alastair, but next time I date anyone it will be someone who at least can be polite to brother.’

Lucie was fairly certain she could meet that criteria. She understood that Alastair hadn’t always been the best, but he had rescued her from bullies several times when he’d gone to school with her. If it was out of guilt towards James, or loyalty to Cordelia, Lucie wasn’t sure but she was grateful to him either way.

‘You have anyone in mind?’ Lucie asked, hoping there wasn’t anyone.

‘Not right now. James’ friend Matthew asked me out not so long ago, but I don’t think I like him that way. Besides, that would have guaranteed the same drama with Alastair, and now that I know what my brother has been through it’s hurtful to hear people say bad things about him. With James, I often let it slide because I often just didn’t want to argue or was scared he wouldn’t like me anymore, but he took that as me agreeing with him and giving him permission to complain as much as he liked.’

Lucie asked her father about her and Lucie having dinner in the village, claiming that way he and her mother could have some romantic alone time. That argument usually worked well on her father, along with Lucie promising she could pay for the meal herself, which her father claimed wasn’t necessary, he’d give her some money.

Her father even offered to drive her. It was a bit of a walk to the village but it was doable and the restaurant was on the side of the town where they’d enter, so Lucie decided she didn’t want to trouble her father.

Lucie changed into a longer red dress with a cardigan tied around her waist so she could put it on when it became too cold for short sleeves, and then she and Cordelia left, walking to the village.

They both kept their eyes open as they walked, although if there was something out there, without Thomas they wouldn’t be guaranteed to see it. Still, their chances of seeing something were better than those of the average mortal. There were no ghosts or other strange creatures to be seen though.

The restaurant wasn’t too busy, which was good because Lucie never did well in loud, busy places. They found a nice table in the corner from which Lucie could keep her eye on everything. Tatiana wasn’t in the restaurant. Would she recognize Lucie after all these years? She’d grown quite a bit and cut her hair after all.

Lucie ordered the vegan burger and Cordelia a curry. Eating vegan in Scotland was surprisingly easy nowadays, and many restaurants offered at least one vegan option. Lucie always made sure to check beforehand though. She knew at some places it was possible to ask for something vegan, but she didn’t want to go through that kind of trouble and risk having waiters not understand what she could and couldn’t eat.

They had almost finished their food by the time they saw Tatiana, Cordelia stealing the occasional chip from her plate. She came down from the stairs, glancing around. She didn’t seem to notice Lucie though. She was wearing a gray hat that resembled a witch hat, except less tall, and decorated with feathers in several colors. There was a girl behind her who matched the description Thomas had given. Around sixteen, very pretty in an unearthly way. Her hair was pale silvery blonde, Lucie didn’t think she’d ever seen anyone with hair naturally that color.

She trailed after Tatiana, a helpless look on her face. Lucie wondered if she wanted to be here, and who she was. Thomas had said they couldn’t make sense of her and weren’t sure if she was mortal or not. Lucie didn’t know either.

There was someone else trailing behind Tatiana though. Jesse was there, but he was leaving, following Tatiana. Lucie put the last bite of food into her mouth and quickly handed Cordelia the money her father had given her.

‘What are you doing?’ Cordelia asked.

‘Jesse is there,’ she said. ‘I’m going after him. Can you pay the bill with this? It should be plenty.’

Cordelia didn’t have time to protest as Lucie slipped out and went after Tatiana, making sure to keep a decent distance. Tatiana didn’t look around much, and Lucie didn’t think she’d been stopped. She tried to get Jesse’s attention, but he wasn’t looking back either. Tatiana left the village, following a path that led into the woods. Lucie didn’t want to follow her all the way along, not knowing where she’d end up, but she needed to speak with Jesse.

She quickly checked her phone, Cordelia had texted. She’d paid the bill and was outside, where was she? Lucie texted her live location and returned her attention to Tatiana, who kept a steady pace. The blonde girl did look back, and when her eyes went wide Lucie realized she’d been spotted. She ducked behind the tree, keeping her eyes on what happened in front, but the girl didn’t say anything and Tatiana didn’t turn around to confront her. If only Jesse would spot her and come talk.

Lucie continued following them, hoping Jesse would spot her. The blonde girl saw her once more, and gestured quickly, a worried look on her face. Lucie interpreted it as go away, you’re getting yourself in trouble. She knew what she was doing was dangerous, but with Thomas’ life possibly on the line, Lucie was going to take some risks. At least following someone into the woods wasn’t illegal. She wondered why the blonde girl was helping her. Lucie didn’t think she wanted to help Tatiana.

And why was Jesse following his mother? Could she see him, or was he trying to get her attention? When the blonde girl gestured to her a second time, Jesse finally noticed her. He glanced around at his mother and then made his way to her at top speed.

‘Lucie, what are you doing?’ he hissed.

‘Finally,’ she said. ‘I’ve been trying to get your attention. I need to talk to you.’

‘I need you to get out of the woods,’ Jesse said. ‘It’s dangerous here, alright?’

‘What is your mother up to? Who is that girl?’

‘Her name is Grace, that’s all I know. I think my mother might be blackmailing her somehow, I don’t think she wants to be here.’

‘Where have you been all these years?’ Lucie asked. ‘I never saw you before. I thought you’d moved on to the afterlife.’

‘I don’t know,’ Jesse said. ‘I don’t remember anything between dying and a few days ago. And I disappear all the time and have no idea where I go. I wanted to talk to you in the woods, I’d finally made my way from the hotel, but then I disappeared.’

That wasn’t something Lucie had ever encountered before. ‘What is your mother doing?’

‘I think she’s trying to reverse what happened,’ Jesse said. ‘She doesn’t tell me her plans, but I think it’s all about me. She often goes into the woods to speak with something, but I can’t come along.’

‘And she can see you?’

‘Yes,’ Jesse said. ‘Grace can too. Other people can’t see me. None except you. Is it because we knew each other when I was alive?’

‘I’ve always seen ghosts,’ Lucie said. ‘When you died, I searched for you everywhere and when I didn’t find you, I believed you’d moved on. I’ve never heard of ghosts returning from where they went after death. Or ghosts randomly disappearing and not remembering.’

‘I don’t understand it either,’ Jesse said. ‘I don’t know what’s happening to me. All I know is I am dead and I can’t be sure for how long. You’ve grown so much, Lucie.’

Lucie frowned. ‘Do you remember dying?’

‘I remember the woods. I remember something stalking me, but I could only catch glimpses of something. I’d never been so scared in my life and I thought I needed to get home as fast as I could. But no matter what path I took, I ended up where I started. The creature stalking me never quite caught up. I spent days in the woods, looking for a way out, until I died of exhaustion.’

‘People searched. Did you not see them, or hear them?’

‘There was no one,’ Jesse said. ‘I screamed and screamed for someone to help me, but no one came, and then everything was gone.’

‘Jesse!’ called a strict female voice. Tatiana. ‘Jesse, come along now! You must not stray in these woods. Even for you it can be dangerous.’

‘I must go,’ Jesse whispered. ‘Do not follow me.’

Lucie nodded, and returned, following the path back until she was at the edge of the woods. She didn’t see Cordelia and checked her phone, where she found several missed calls and missed messages from her friend.

Lucie called back, and Cordelia immediately picked up. ‘Lucie, where are you!’ Cordelia yelled. ‘Never do that to me again.’

‘Didn’t you get my location?’ Lucie asked.

‘Stupid thing didn’t work, you kept jumping all over town and whenever I caught up you weren’t there. What have you been up to, you have been gone for an hour!’

‘No, that’s impossible,’ Lucie said. ‘It was ten, fifteen minutes max.’

‘I don’t know how you sense of time is, but it’s been an hour,’ Cordelia insisted. ‘Where are you now?’

‘At the edge of the forest. I’ll return to the restaurant, might be easier to find.’

‘Alright, I’ll see you there,’ Cordelia said. ‘Bye.’

Cordelia hung up and Lucie returned to the restaurant, where Cordelia was waiting.

‘I knew you were reckless, Lu,’ Cordelia said. ‘But please never do this again.’

‘It hasn’t been an hour,’ Lucie insisted. ‘It can’t have been.’

‘Check the time,’ Cordelia said. ‘You texted me your location shortly after you left, which was an hour ago.’

Lucie checked the time stamp on Cordelia’s texts and realized she was right.

‘But how?’ she asked. ‘I wasn’t gone for that long.’

‘Did you at least speak to Jesse?’ Cordelia asked.

‘For a little while. It was all very odd. Jesse had disappeared until recently, he doesn’t remember where he’s been and at times he still disappears. He thinks his mother is trying to reverse what happened, he’s not sure exactly but she’s up to dangerous things. She can see him, and that girl too. Jesse said her name was Grace, but he doesn’t know what she is. He thinks Tatiana is blackmailing her somehow.’ Lucie paused, her father was calling her.

‘It’s getting late, Lulu, are you and Cordelia still at the restaurant?’ he asked when she picked up.

‘No, we left, but we’re still in the village,’ Lucie said. ‘It’s a bit of a long story, I’ll explain when we get home.’

‘I’ll come pick you up,’ her father said. ‘It’s getting late. You can explain in the car.’

If he was upset, she didn’t hear it. Lucie had always been told she got her recklessness from her father, and it was usually her mother who got upset with her when she did something like this.

‘We’re still near the restaurant,’ Lucie said and she hung up. ‘My father is coming to pick us up.’

‘Is he mad?’ Cordelia asked.

Lucie shook her head. ‘My father never really gets mad with me.’

Cordelia tilted her head. ‘Mine doesn’t either, at least not with me. My mother is the one with a temper, usually. And Alastair. But I guess my father just wasn’t really there.’

Lucie imagined it had to be difficult to discover such a terrible secret about your father after loving him for so long, after not seeing there was something not right at home.

‘If I’d done what you just did and told my mother, she would murder me for sure,’ Cordelia said, with a small smile. ‘Being a strict parent isn’t really effective though, Alastair and I just learnt to lie well. But I know she means well.’

‘Then you won’t mind not mentioning I’d followed Tatiana on my own?’ Lucie asked. ‘Instead, we went into the woods together, I spoke with Jesse, and when we returned suddenly an hour had passed.’

‘Sure,’ Cordelia said. ‘Honestly, I think your father believes anything I say.’

‘He does have a weakness for the Carstairs family,’ Lucie said.

Her father’s best friend was Jem Carstairs, Cordelia’s cousin. Her father had decided that by association, Cordelia and Alastair had to be just as amazing as Jem was. Lucie guessed that weak spot for the Carstairs had its downsides as well. Her father had idolized Elias as well as the other Carstairs, and learning of his addiction and abuse of his children had been quite a shock for him. Lucie suspected her father felt guilty for not seeing it sooner, for not doing anything to help.

When her father arrived, Lucie and Cordelia quickly got into the car, and Cordelia recounted the story of them going for a short walk following Jesse when suddenly an hour had passed and Lucie added in what Jesse had told her.

‘I knew Tatiana was up to something,’ Will said. ‘Reversing what happened, does that refer to Jesse’s death?’

Lucie guessed it would make sense for a mother to want to bring her child back. She had done something already, to bring him from something he didn’t remember back into this world.

‘So if she were to bring back Jesse,’ Cordelia said. ‘Would that mean Thomas dies in exchange for his life?’

Will looked grim. ‘If Benedict owed someone the soul of a grandchild and that creature took Jesse, I’m guessing Tatiana might attempt to exchange Thomas for Jesse. But it’ll probably cost more than just Thomas.’

[notbecauseofvictories]

oh I'm interested in the tag novel on how fan spaces becoming more meat spacey benefits the producers!! also happy Halloween! 🖤🧡🖤🧡

It’s not a particularly academic argument---I don’t have sources to back this up, I haven’t done research. I’m also wary of painting a picture of “fandom” as anything more than a lot of weasels in a trenchcoat, because that word means a lot of things to a lot of different people, some of whom hate each other. But as long as everybody understands that this is the ethnographical equivalent of drunkenly throwing darts at a copy of the AJS...sure.

[under a cut because it’s long and baseless, and also I had a lot of thoughts and feelings. Sorry.]

My basic premise is that fandom occupies “fanspace.” Fanspace is not solely online, since fanzines and conventions are fanspace too, but since the 90s it has become increasingly and primarily internet based. While some websites are designated fanspace (e.g., AO3, ff.net, stand-alone fansites) fanspace is not necessarily contiguous with a hosting site (e.g., there is fanspace on tumblr, but tumblr is not a fanspace). Fanspace is really just those urls, message boards, threads, blogs, accounts, etc. designated for fandom and/or where fannish activity takes place.

Its deeply-rooted internet presence has allowed fanspace and what I call “meatspace” to operate on different rules. Meatspace has always informed fan spaces, of course---disclaimers on fic to ward off accusations of copyright infringement, for example, or asking readers to attest that they’re over 13 before reading an R-rated fic. But traditionally, fandom has accepted as norm things that don’t apply to meatspace: fake names and anonymous posts, pictures of someone else’s characters, lengthy self-published stories featuring violence, explicit sex, sometimes even gay people. Fanspace is in many ways an artificial carve out from meatspace, where fewer of its rules apply; fanspace supplements these with its own norms.

The division between fanspace and meatspace is not and has never been a clear, settled line, however. Debates on how much meatspace should inform fan spaces have been raging for as long as I’ve been on the internet, and to be fair to meatspace, it has made good points. (I’m not sure if “don’t be racist,” counts as a meatspace rule given...racism, but fandom frequently reacts to it like a meatspace intrusion so I think it should count.)

However, what used to be intra-fandom conversations have become increasingly more public, for a few reasons:

Part of this is just the natural development of the internet---it’s not like fanspace was ever hidden, but there just weren’t as many people online, and stuff was harder to find in a pre-google, pre-algorithmic promotion world.

Part of it is the changing architecture of fanspace---websites shutting down, Strikethrough, and the tumblr porn ban have all, in their own ways, served to alter fanspace and move towards more and more public-facing sites.

But part of it---and this is the biggest factor, I think---is that over the last two decades, we’ve seen content-producers** increasingly willing to engage with fandom. 

On its face, this sounds good! After all, fans like people who make things, people who make things want fans. What could possibly be wrong about both sides recognizing their mutualism?

I think this works when the most interaction you could expect with a creator was showing up a bookstore to ask Tamora Pierce a question, or writing fanmail to Paul Gross. But it falls apart when you consider just how public-facing fanspaces have become, and just how much interest content-producers have taken in cultivating the fannish audience. Content-producers engaging directly with fandom are a thumb on the scales of mutualism, and a heavy one. After all, one side of the relationship is a loosely collected anarchic cult, migrating along a series of websites they mostly don’t control, making do with nothing but ongoing wank and general obsessive tendencies. 

The other side has D*sney, Harper Collins, and Comcast.

That thumb on the scale has paid off, more than I think even the content-producers could have anticipated. Fandom is good at loving what it loves and talking loudly about it, but capitalism is way better at doing what it does---turning everything into profit. So now people pay $100 a pop to go to Harry Potter World. Conventions are well-produced extensions of their parent companies, raking in money and providing a blitz of publicity---directly to the source most likely to take your messaging and amplify it. Make a superhero movie and the minute the trailer drops you conjure up thousands of online fans will be your de facto, unpaid publicists---generating interest via fan art, fic, and controversy with minimal corporate effort.  Of course fic writers who have established online presence are the darlings of the publishing world---what publisher wouldn’t want a built-in hype machine for a new author? 

And, just coincidentally, of course, fanspace and meatspace are drawn closer together, that line further blurred by this new and very, very interested third party.

I’m not saying this is some big conspiracy. No tv exec is out there rubbing their hands together and cackling evilly about how they’re going ruin fandom. But in exchange for meatspace validation and an endless stream of new content, I think fandom has ceded important ground. And I think it’s changing fanspaces, even now:

One of the founding rules of fanspace is that it does not generate money---you risk real copyright infringement that way. (This isn’t to say that money hasn’t been involved in a few massive fandom scandals, but it’s not typical.) Increasingly, however, the grumblings about getting paid for fan art and fic have gotten louder, probably due to meatspace’s general emphasis on the side-hustle, and seeing content-producers churn out more and more fan-like things for a profit.

(It seems unimaginable now, but once upon a time the HP Lexicon was an invaluable resource, a rare unicorn in a pre-wikipedia age. Now, D*sney wouldn’t even think of releasing a tentpole movie without a novelization, a picture dictionary, and a tie-in novel.)

Also, those calls for fan art that “might be featured” by a content-producer are (rightfully) scorned for asking for work pro bono. But the takeaway seems to be “we deserve to be paid for our fan art!” rather than “how dare the content-producer intrude on our fanspace and its activities!”

Fanspaces have never expected or required legal ID, permitting anonymous or pseudonymous activity in order to protect individual privacy. And while there’s still no expectation you link your legal ID with your online/fan ID, the norm has shifted---it’s no longer considered gauche to go by your legal ID, even necessary when turning mutuals and followers into an “audience.” We’re not anonymous fans, engaged in our mutual hobby anymore---some people are doing that, and others are potential content-creators.

I’d argue that even purity wank if an example of this new blurring, classic “don’t like don’t read” arguments taking on new life now that meatspace is so nearby---we wouldn’t want to offend the neighbors!

Even these things benefit the content-producers: the more fan-like stuff they churn out, the less fanspaces will create on their own; the more fanspaces that emphasize linking legal ID to online ID, the less people will be able to engage in fan activities privately; the more meatspace rules assert themselves on fanspaces, the less fanspace we’ll have.

Now, maybe this is just...evolution. As I said before, there is a porous and shifting border between fanspace and meatspace. I remember angry threads about whether m/m fics should be rated higher than a het equivalent; I remember the tagging debates, the incredible resistance to accurately describing what happens in your fic. Maybe in a few years, my longing to return to a more separate fanspace will seem equally as embarrassing, incorrect, and unnecessary. 

But right now, it feels more like an erosion---one fandom is about as willing or able to resist as the tide.

.

** “Content maker” is a term that’s come to mean “anyone who makes something” which is sheer nonsense. There’s a difference between publishers/television producers/movie studios and someone recording a podcast in their bathroom. There’s even a difference between D*sney, a vast undead creative monopoly animated by copyright protections, and someone like James Patterson, who uses a stable of ghostwriters to churn out “his” works. We shouldn’t be scrutinizing all these things them the same way, it’s lazy, and intellectually dishonest.

[kaypeace21]

i'm losing hope of byler being an endgame :( milevens say that we are invalidating mileven, besides having several scenes that they show "passion/love". they make fun of us, besides always giving reasons why mileven is an endgame, and disrespecting other people's ship, and maybe actually Will will be with another boy right?? idk but I really hope I'm not being deluded

lol  lets not focus on byler for a sec and mostly discuss mileven. what scenes show mileven’s  ‘passion/love’? Because the show invalidates mileven constantly-why they’re so aggressive/afraid of us.THEY KNOW IT’S DOOMED (they live in head canons and nothing else).  I’m going to try keeping this short by doing bullet points.

-The writers in s3 threw in a telemarketing joke just for Mike to say “El. no. sorry not interested” and hang up the phone. 

- Flo  in s1: “only love makes you that crazy and that damn stupid.”

Mike: “if we’re both going crazy. we’ll go crazy together right?”will: “yeah, crazy together “ *smile and stare longingly at eachother *————————————————————-Mike: “they do say it makes you crazy”El: “what makes you crazy?”(the exact opposite of crazy together as she continues to be confused over every explanation he gives of love 😂)————————————————————-During the byler fight  Mike says “el’s not stupid!” After this, Will calls himself “ so stupid “ 4x .  rips up photo where they said they’d go crazy together and cries . But, El after fighting with mike happily says: “there’s more to life than STUPID boys .”  El’s catchphrase being “not stupid” which she says in s2 before going to see Mike at the school. And Nancy before Mike says he loves El / Mikeduring the byler fight (about mileven) say “El’s not stupid!”

original gifs  sources

-the s3 stobin confession parallels mileven’s s3 shop confession (full analysis in link). Both El/Robin have bandages on their legs and both pairings sit together (on the floor) during their confessions- and are interrupted by Dustin. And in both straight baits- the guys use the terms “stupid/crazy” but subvert the expectation of it being romantic-as both girls say they’re not “crazy” or “stupid” for the guy. El saying “what makes you crazy?” in response to Mike. And Robin saying she was not into Steve’s “stupid hair” (similar to El saying there’s more to life than ‘stupid boys’/other saying she’s not stupid.”Also the song ‘the first i love you’ only plays twice in s3. During Steve’s romantic confession and robin rejecting him because she’s gay & El’s romantic confession and awkward kiss with mike (where Mike doesn’t reciprocate). Cause Robin/Mike are both gay and will reject the romantic confession.

- Erica making he-man and barbie kiss: “Hey , They’re in love!”Lucas (livid- and standing right next to a rainbow forcing them apart): “No, actually,  they’re not. they’re not even from the same planet.”  El even watches he-man in s1! Mileven is not in love!

Cue El and mike being compared to ET and Eliot -WHO AREN’T FROM THE SAME PLANET (by the Duffers in multiple interviews and in the pilot script ) .   And then there’s the  old euphemism of “girls come from Venus, and boys come from Mars”.  The Duffers saying mileven isn’t in love cause they’re not from the same planet (aka the same gender) -is just them telling us Mike is gay so he can’t fall for El-who is a girl/diff species. They literally have Will say to Mike “welcome to my world” as a contrast. So El telling mike he should ‘stick with his own species’ (aka boys) is another gay hint.

In s2 they even had El wear the same shirt as a 1986 movie character (staring Winona Ryder). The movie is called coincidentally “lucas”- and he’s in an unrequited romantic relationship with a gal named maggie. And he later says him and Maggie are  from “different worlds.” El being movie-Lucas in a unrequited romance, in this scenario. And the other easteregg is the Duffers have st-Lucas  say the “planet/worlds” similar to movie-Lucas.

some milevens also attribute romeo/juliet to mileven cause Dustin mentioned it while mileven was out of shot. But romeo & juliet weren’t actually in love-it was just kids in infatuation. And also used to describe the unrequited infatuation of Lucas/Maggie.

-Also when dustin in s1 says el is “like a wizard” (like Will.) Mike corrects dustin and says “more like yoda”. Really hammering down the alien references- which the Duffers reference to el in interviews all the time-by comparing her to et . In the pilot they even said mike and el are like “Eliot and et.” They said they made el dress like a ghost cause et did so- and then for the extra burn they made mike a ghost hunter/buster. And they also said that EL’s makeover in s1 was like et’s in the movie. And sorry ... who compares the girl they “crush on” with a green gross alien (yoda)- kind of shows how he sees her more as this foreign superpowered entity rather than a girl/crush. And on what planet is et /Eliot romantic??Answer is -it’s not. 

- In contrast, They have Mike and Will parallel  Diane and Venkman. In ghost Busters, Mike -is Venkman- and Will -is Dana Barret- who Venkman flirts with shamelessly until she is possessed. Dana finds a demon-dog in her fridge, and hires the ghost busters. And right before Venkman goes on a date with her she is possessed by the big-bad, Zuul, and is transformed into the gate-keeper (who controls demo(n)-dogs). Venkman proceeded to try to talk to the real Dana , ignoring her possessed form and eventually realizes how serious her condition is, is forced to sedate her. Eventually with the help of his team, Venkman closes the gate to Zuul’s dimension, rescuing Dana in the process. And Venkman plants one on Dana before riding away in triumph. While, El is a ghost and Mike is a ghost hunter XD

Notice in the same season lucas says mileven is ‘not in love’ and compares mileven to he-man and barbie .  Dustin has a  he-man & Et next to each other (along with a ghost buster sign above them, and the ghostbusters-trap next to et). This just reinforces the mileven eastereggs I’ve already talked about -  and how they want you to make the connections  about mileven not being in love. They showed et/barbie next to he-man, had El watch he-man, compared El to Et (who had a barbie-like makeover/ghost costume), so the next he-man ref of ‘not being in love’  cause rhey’re from different planets would connect in a more obvious way to mileven.  Same with Et next to the ghost trap and ghost busters sign (and El dressing as a ghost and Mike as a ghost buster-as an extra burn).

- Mike dehumanizing El is hammered down again when they compare s1 mileven to s2 dart /dustin (a demo dog) , to further show how un-romantic it is. Fin even said the duffers told him Mike saw el (OFFENSIVELY) as a “puppy’ (right after s1).  And of course millie accurately said “what a horrible way to describe me!”But the parallels are there: Dustin/Mike sharing sweets ( nougat vs eggos) for breakfast and saying they’ll have to wait for them to come home from school. And having mike annoyed, say  “a bond? cause you shared nougat?!” is dissing milevens who think the ego thing is cute/romantic. Dustin/Mike saying they ‘promised’ to take care of them and that they ‘trust’ dustin & mike. Dart killing a cat and El almost killing a cat. Dustin/Mike trying to convince Lucas- Dart & El aren’t bad. The boys thinking both El & Dart were bad guys causing both to end up running away because of that. Mike even admits in s1 he doesn’t like eggos and told El she doesn’t have to eat “like a dog” anymore.  it’s ironic when Mike says to Dustin “she’s not a dog” cause he treated her as such. Why El says in s3 angrily , “am I your pet?” It’s because he did/does unfortunately treat her this way to some degree. 

-They Parallel Mileven to Hopper & El (since mileven isn’t actually romantic)!

*teaching the meaning of promise vs com-promise. And making “promises” to eachother is not some super romantic thing- for just mileven.

* Telling her to eat “real food” vs eggos

* saying her new look is “cool”and saying it’s “bitchin” after El says the look is.

* Saying others are “corrupting her” and in response gals say neither respect her ability to make “decisions” in regards to romance. Hopper not accepting Mileven together (want them to break up)  and Mike not accepting she dumped him.

* Max saying to not let Hopper/Mike control her

*El saying “you lie” to both of them

ok , back to listing other points

- they dance to ‘every breath you take’ a break up song about a stalker ex who can’t accept he is now with her friend. The writer of the song also has said many times “it’s NOT a love song.” The duffers obviously knew that. Lumax also danced to it and Lucas was called a ‘stalker’ . El also stalked Mike in s2 (all that stuff milevens found romantic- El watching him without him knowing. Mike says he was not ok with it in s3). And in s3 he said not to do that and she just says ‘i make my own rules’.Plus, sting (the singer) mentions it’s supposed to sound romantic but the lyrics are sinister. And that the ambiguity/deceptive happy -romantic tone was intentional. Kind of like how people think mileven is healthy and in love when the show (ambiguosly says ) that it’s not -and the “opposite”.Just like the song being misinterpreted as romantic because of its deceptive packaging -mileven is the same . Mileven got popular cause everyone missed all the warning signs it wasn’t healthy (cause it was packaged as ‘cute’ and ‘ in love’) when behind the surface it was shown to be the opposite and not healthy.

 Not to mention Nancy teaching Dustin how to dance is a direct parallel to Mike teaching El. 

Mike also tries to act like Dustin, and  forces Will to dance with a girl (who’s wearing a rainbow hair clip). Trying to be a good sport like Dustin is about lumax. And right after this we see Dustin look sad about Max/Lucas dancing and Mike (next to Dustin) look sadly at Will/girl dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these 2 shots to emphasize their sadness/jealousy.Then they both sit down (mirroring each other) on the verge of tears before Nancy and El show up to comfort them and distract them.  As El once again (presumably) wears Nancy’s dress. Mike after El asks “will you be my brother?” “you cant go  (to the snowball) with your sister... i mean you can but it’d be really weird.” 

- before their first kiss in s1 she asked if he would be like her brother (after being compared to a cousin, and being compared to Holly, and wearing Nancy’s dress.) In s2 they even make a direct parallel to Luke &Leia (who were siblings who had a weird romantic relationship/kissed before realizing they were related). Mike (as Leia) saying “it’s a trap” to El (Luke). 

- Mike in s1 writes a d&d story for Will inspired by star wars.  in ep one Will tells Mike “it was a 7, the demogorgan it got me.”At the end of the season Mike writes a whole story of him and his friends killing a 7 headed monster, and showing the decapitated head of the monster to king Tristan (Will). Similar to how at the hospital he tells Will to not worry cause “it’s dead now”. This is right after Will rolls a 14 (cause Mike and Will are 7s together). And Mike who is a fan of starwars has King Tristan give them medals after killing the monster. Cause he wants Will/king tristan (instead of Leia -a girl) to present him with medals and be his romantic love interest (and praise him for being a hero).

- They had Dustin call mileven “bullshit” just like stancy (who were never in love). And in s3 for almost every single character in the show to dislike mileven . if that isn’t a cry for help from the writers idk what is XD

other stancy parallels: Making out on a bed to cheesy music. stancy wasn’t in love but they kissed the most in the series and nancy and steve (similar to mileven exchanged ‘i love yous’) but weren’t endgame and it was never love. Mike and Steve sing to their gfs and neither girls are fans and cut them off.In s1, both Nancy/Mike slap Steve and El and then both yell “ What is wrong with you?!”  Stancy/mileven are compared to Karen/ted who according to Nancy “never loved each other”. El is a fan of ted’s lazy boy. (Karen in s3 looks at Ted in the chair when the lyric “I should have walked away “ plays). And Steve and ted continuing to eat chicken as their gf /wife storm off from the table upset , and they do nothing. After the mileven and Karen/Ted fight- Steve says while eating “what did I do?what did i do?” And mike while eating says about el after their fight “what did i do wrong? what did i do wrong?!Steve and Ted both tell Mike to “stay on the bench/you’re on the bench.” Karen/ ted that they “never loved each other” (just like mileven and stancy which are “bullshit.”) All 3 wheelers were with people cause it seemed like the rational choice ( rich guy/ popular guy/ girl). Not to mention mike said “ I don’t remember” ( in reference to saying he loved el ) . And doesn’t say it back when el says “I love you”. Which mimics Nancy in s2 saying “I don’t remember ” (saying the stancy relationship is bs) . And she is also unable to say she loves Steve when he says“say you love me.” And Steve and el walking away as both wheelers stand there in silence. Unable to say “I love you” back.  Also, when stancy officially breakup it also pans to mileven on the porch as another parallel.And 11byers mentioned (at Christmas)  jancy has a moment but despite stancy’s issues she goes back to Steve where she looks sad over the decision .  Similar to how Byler have a moment , but then after , mileven talks about christmas  and they have that awkward kiss. In s3, steve when talking about stancy and trying to be popular even says “dustin’s right it’s all a bunch of bullshit.” (meaning Dustin’s right about mileven). Steve even says “everything people tell you is important that you’re supposed to care about- it’s bullshit.” (same season Mike mimics Lucas’ words from s1 about El being the “most important thing”.

-They also had Mike tell Max “i don’t hate you. I don’t even know you.”  Aka he can’t hate Max or love el cause he knew both for a week-and doesn’t know them. The amount of mileven burns that were in s2 -were insane XD.

other direct contrasts between Mileven & byler 

besides the ones already mentioned. 1) ‘crazy together/so stupid’ vs ‘what makes you crazy?/el’s not stupid/more to life than stupid boys & 2) ‘they’re not in love they’re not even from the same planet’ vs byler’s ‘welcome to my world’

3) Mike has drastically different expressions after the byler/mileven fights and the difference in weather and music selection ,convey how Mike is feeling. He looks regretful with Will, and almost annoyed with El dumping him.  Mileven breaks up to upbeat music on a sunny day (the break up being in front a crowd and a joke) vs the morose music and the storm shown (with just Mike and Will fighting ). We are supposed to take the byler fight seriously and the mileven one as a joke.They had Mike apologize to Will immediately. But with El he says “what did i do wrong?’ (Kind of like how ted, after pissing off karen says “what did I do?”)And then had Mike wait by the phone for her to apologize- says sexist stuff about her. Then have mike laugh/burp and talk about cheese and El to laugh about the break up/high five max and immediately oggle a pic of another boy/male celeb (unlike Will who looks sadly at the pic of Mike after their fight). And then after staring at the  teen-male celeb,  El says she’s not sure if  Mike’s a good kisser cause he’s just her “first boyfriend” and she has no other boys to compare him to (implying she’s thinking of other boys in the future).  Contrasted to Will who said he thought him & Mike would never get gfs but just spend the rest of their lives together. El after all these events, then happily reads comics  as Max says she shouldn’t hang out with Mike all the time. VS Will having him sadly read his comic to distract himself  only to throw his comic on the ground right before he looks at the pic of mike from Halloween (where they said they would go ‘crazy together’), calls himself stupid (unlike El saying there’s more to life than stupid boys/mike saying El is not stupid-aka in love ). And then destroys castle byers /crIES after the their fight. These events were perfect opposites.

4) When Mike says in the pool shed she’s the “most important thing in the world” to him. she cuts him off and says Hopper is right about them spending too much time together. But when Mike in the shed says asking Will to be his friend was the “best thing he’s ever done” (it was practically the cliche of true love breaking the curse) XD.

When Mike says to El  “you’re most important thing to me” in the pool shed. El doesn’t even acknowledge the comment (and neither should the audience- cause the words were empty). The framing of this mileven scene was not cinematic or heartfelt, and neither was the delivery from Mike. He’s not crying, trying to reach her with proclamations of his genuine feelings. There’s no dramatic music, framing, lighting or shot composition (and the scene was incredibly short).And El just responds and cuts his supposed ‘true feelings’ off- only to agree with Hopper and says “ what if he’s right”  . I didn’t speed this up FYI.

Juxtaposed to the MUCH longer byler shed scene. A literal single tear falling down his cheek as Mike , recounts the first day they met. This whole monologue is only of tight shots of just their faces (their bodies aren’t shown like in the pool shed scene). With contrasting colors of light and shadow.This is a personal moment between them and them alone- and the fact we zoom in on their faces (expresses this to be important emotionally) . And when we see Will’s reaction to Mike saying “it was the best thing I’ve ever done”. We just see Will’s face only- no music is playing and all we hear is  Will’s whimpers and Mike crying in the background.*

5) Max in s2 at Will’s house questions how Mike can still trust Will now that he’s a spy for the mf . Max (in s3) at El’s house: says that Mike doesn’t trust El- and Mike mentions that her spying is why he doesn’t trust her.  in s2, Mike: “if anyone could stop them it’s Will“. Max: “ I thought we couldn’t trust him that he’s a spy for the mf now?” Max in s3 calling Mike out  : “El has saved the world twice. And Mike still doesn’t trust her.” Mike: you want to talk about trust really?! after... Eleven spied on us! I guess girlfriends don’t lie they SPY!”

Not to mention - the fact is... El has “saved the world twice but Mike still doesn’t trust her” to fight the mf. Yet he 100% believed Will could defeat the mf -despite Will being possessed/a spy for the mf . And despite the fact Mike  thinks Will has no powers - unlike El ( but we all know he does , though :P). And, Mike even says Billy is dangerous cause  the “mf is in him ...Billy’s mind is sick, diseased” (but with Will possession -Mike still trusted him).  Max rolls her eyes and stares challengingly at Mike cause she remembers what Mike said about Will in s2- and the hypocrisy . And she finds it annoying how little faith he has in her compared to his almost unmoving-trust in Will (who at the time was possessed) . Mike has 100% trust and faith in Will-but simply doesn’t trust El.  And MAX KNOWS IT! Cause she’s paying attention. Like her facial expression/raised brow, at the end, is a challenge- you think non-superpowered Will could defeat the mf but not El with a history of fighting monsters? You say Billy possessed by the mf is dangerous- but still have more faith in Will possessed by the mf- than your own gf?! tbh El couldn’t defeat the mf (so technically him trusting Will over  El was proven to be correct). He wasn’t right about the El ‘giving up’ bs and he was still wrong for not respecting El as her “own person” with her “own free will” : not believing in El’s ability to make decisions like breaking up with him/ not believing El made the idea to spy on him, etc . But, Team work has always been what saved the day in s1-2, so over-relying on El to do it all and acting like she was the messiah ( like most of the st fanbase) was a poor plan . It’s not the El-show (it’s an ensemble cast with several mains). When they relied on her only ,to be the chosen one- she lost her powers, 30+ people d*ed, and they had to save her.

6) ) El and Will both calling for “Mike” alone in the upside down . And Mike “never giving up” on them.In the exact same ep (s2 e2) , both call for Mike from the upside down. El saves herself without Mike’s help. But Mike rushes to save Will crouching to comfort Will (whose body language mirrors El’s but who was alone in the forest after she sees mike and he did nothing). 

in s2 ep 1, both call for Mike ,but Mike only comes for Will -not el. It was like how Nancy in s1 called for Jon, and jonathan pulled her out of the upsidedown.  And as Jonathan and Mike both pull Nancy and Will back from the upside down , Jonathan says “I got you”. And Mike says “I got him “ twice. But mileven is like how barb while in the upsidedown called for Nancy (but nancy didn’t hear her screaming her name-cause it shows symbolically Nancy does not return Barb’s romantic feelings). Just like mileven.

Mike even saw Will’s dead body but the second he heard his voice he convinced everyone he was alive. Mike deep down assumed El was dead he brushed off seeing El as seeing things (like how Hopper described seeing Sarah). He even tells Max “ they took her just like they took bob” who was dead. Then a few minutes later lies and says he “never gave up” on her when she appears alive (which was a lie cause he just said she was dead). When El goes to his house Mike doesn’t ever go the forest to find her (unlike how Mike went into the forest in the pouring rain twice for Will). The truth is the only person he ‘never gave up on’ was Will.

7) They have El & Will have pics of Mike on Halloween (same night of the ‘crazy together’ speech). El only has a pic of Mike being miserable  and Will has pics of Mike staring at Will, and smiling next to him- despite the joke Mike never smiles in photos , this isn’t the case when mike is next to Will (he always smiles with Will). Cause being crazy with Will makes him happy - unlike his relationship with El who he fakes being ‘crazy’ about .

zoom in of Will & El’s pics of Mike: Will’s pic on left vs El’s on right . XD

8) Millie said El is “obsessed with Mike” so she has Mike-themed stuff all over  her room. She has a drawing with a heart that says mike on it/random heart pics, mike pic, dice that spell out mike, mikes’ stuff. So, It’s funny that mike has nothing relating to El at his place. In contrast to this, he still has 5 d&d drawings from Will on his wall (that he’s kept on his wall for 3 years despite removing an old poster from that same wall-which he gave to El). Mike even put up a 6th Will-drawing in s3- next to his new poster. And he never put a single 1 of her many drawings on his wall-just Will’s).

back to other points...

- They compared mileven to karen/billy. El in s2 , mimics Erica Kane who m(in the ep she is watching) rushes into a relationship with a writer named Mike Roy. (That relationship is not endgame-and  literally ends with one of them stalking and sabotaging their next relationship, but eventually accepting it’s over). This, also parallels Karen/ Billy. Before she meets him in s2, Karen is reading a romance book that has a guy that resembles Billy on the cover. The Duffers even mentioned they changed the cover to show the resemblance between Billy and the fictional book character. And we see Karen reading the sequel in s3 before Billy appears. Both El and Karen don’t/didn’t love Mike or Billy- they just projected onto them fictional characters they were infatuated with. El being into Mike roy- but projecting her crush on to Mike wheeler.

-They had El’s whole s2 arc be destroyed to show mileven is bad for her. “friends don’t lie” to let me lie to my friends so I can kiss mike and ditch them. lucas even said “they’re lying (about her curfew).”And lie to Mike about hearing his confession. Then in s2 trying to leave the cabin to experience the world and see my friends and fam again. To literally ignoring them all for 6 months and never leaving the cabin-despite Hopper letting me leave the house in s3.

- El in s3 says Mike treats her “like a pet” and “garbage”.

-In s1 Mike referred to her as a ‘weapon’  to help get Will back. smacked her when he thought she lied about Will being alive and said Lucas was right about her all along when he thought Will was dead and he couldn’t use her anymore. 

- They had El never apologize for spying/stalking . And  Mike never apologize for lying -despite it being the cause of the breakup . And had mike not reciprocate the kiss/ or say ‘i love you ‘ back  and had his eyes open while the same exact song plays that robin came out to: called ‘the first i love you’). These are the only 2 times the song plays in s3. The ‘first i love you’ also sounds like ‘the first lie’ - that song played when jancy said they were just friends. it sounds the same cause jancy lied about it not being romantic while mileven lied by saying it was.  He never apologized for lying cause the love is the lie- like Max said “boyfriends lie ALL THE TIME”. And it’s why the camera panned to Will when Lucas asked why Mike lied to her. And he never answers El’s question of ‘why do you lie?!’ (he just looks up silent and guilt ridden).This awkward kiss all happens in Will’s room too while Mike is in front of an open closet (while El is holding Will’s old bear).  

Plus he also fought with Hopper in s2 (’about El’) in Will’s room too. He wasn’t actually calling Hopper the liar he was calling himself “a stupid disgusting liar”out of self hate .  That scene was foreshadowing his lying to El in s3 (about his feelings for her). He blamed Hopper for his feelings for Will cause he told himself it wouldn’t have escalated if El had been around to ‘fix him’ . “I BLAME YOU! NOTHING ABOUT THIS IS OK! NOTHING ABOUT THIS IS OK. YOU STUPID DISGUSTING liar, liar, liar, liar”.starts crying.

- Mike says “i never gave up on you (to El). “ When moments earlier he says “it took her just like it took Bob.” HE’S LYING AGAIN. He always thought she was dead -he was just hoping she was alive so he didn’t have to blame himself. He felt bad for treating her like a “weapon”. Mike saw El and didn’t even bother looking for her in the woods cause he assumed she was dead and was hallucinating. Mike saw Will’s dead body- but heard his voice and got him from another dimension (for El he couldn’t even bother to walk into the woods). Despite going into the woods in the pouring rain 2x for Will in s1& 3. El and Mike both call for Mike in the upside down (Mike in the same ep only comes for Will).

- They barely spoke to each other and all they did was makeout for 1 ep (while Mike put a drawing of ‘Will (the fire wielding) wise’ on the wall to help him kiss her/ with rainbows pic everywhere in the room to signify he’s gay and lying).  All while listening to a mixtape Will gave him as he kisses El.As Mike moves her hands off him (and sings a song from ‘boy in the box’) and El says to Max later she doesn’t know if mike’s a good kisser . And Mike rushes to one of his many established double-dates with Will and lumax  (x). And Mike in s3 when dating el, removes the sign of the heart being propelled by a rainbow (which he had before meeting El in his basement) .BUT it follows him symbolically ,as a drawing of a heart being propelled by a rainbow (in el’s room- cause no matter how much he kisses el there, he can’t escape his rainbow/being gay.)

-as mileven kiss in s3 e1. We zoom in on the drawing of Will the wise (the lyrics over the pic are “a little more time can open closing doors”). And then Mike continues to sing this song from ‘boy in the box’ (cough closet).Will in s3e1 says he won’t fall in love and the song then a diff song plays “love that was new to you , you open up the door.” mileven at the end of s3 kissing in front of Will’s open closet door with Mike’s eyes open not kissing back , and saying he doesn’t “ remember “ the love you and just says it was “in the heat of the moment”. The mike song being from “boy in the box” (closet). And they make out to “I can’t fight this feeling” which the singer says is about wanting to admit your feelings to your friend of many years and being afraid it’ll ruin the relationship. Aka even when kissing El he’s thinking of Will and admitting his feelings and not being able to fight his feelings

- Mike saying about Max “awesome? you don’t even know her.” Dustin says “ i don’t have to i mean look at her.” El was said in s1 multiple times to look like a boy (specifically Will). So Dustin and Lucas had no interest in her -only Mike did. BUT when max (a girl who looked like a girl) arrived- they as straight boys  were smitten. And Mike was not interested at all (cause he’s gay). The fact people don’t realize Mike was rude to her because he thought Will liked her too makes me laugh - he even was 1/2 honest in s3 saying he was jealous of her  XD 

why in s3 (when she looks like a girl) the compliment to her look is almost the same as Hopper’s comment to her makeover in s2. Paralleling Mike to her dad is the opposite of romantic!

-people say in s3 Will saying “a day free of girls” is gay coded but everyone ignores Mike in s3 saying “BOYS ONLY”. Same energy.

-MiKE has more rainbows than Will: Mike’s rainbow bedroom blinds, the rainbow-heart wooden sign in the basement in s1, the rainbow heart drawing that says Mike in s3, a rainbow sticker in his room, byler standing behind a rainbow poster in s2. And Will with the rainbow ship and the girl he danced with having a rainbow hearts-hairclip.

- People mention Mike saving El in s3 was romantic ( when he hit Billy). But when Billy slapped max he charged in to save her too and tried punching him (despite their beef). that moment wasn’t romantic (unless you think madweheeler is- which no). Mike is just a good person- he also risked his life for dustin. He’s brave and will defend HIS FRIENDS. 

- we’re almost to the end for those not keeping tract mileven is compared to stancy, ted/karen,  karen/billy, stobin, Dart/Dustin, max &mike, barb/nancy, nancy & dustin, siblings & cousins & a parent/kid dynamic. And contrasted to byler.

- Finn, after s1, said the duffers told him,   Mike thinks of her as a “puppy/ “et” , and that Mileven was a  “first summer love thing”- foreshadowing what was mileven’s downfall during the Summer (aka s3). He repeats this “first summer love” phrase 2x.  Millie when he mentioned what the duffers said, rightfully thought the puppy thing was “awful”, but Finn was clearly told mileven doesn’t last -very early on.Summer love” by definition fails-as it only lasts during the summer.  

-It wasn’t a break it was a breakup. Like Max and Will said in response to Mike  “ she said she dumped your ass! That doesn’t sound like a break?!/ it wasn’t!’ Or El knocking all the candy out of the machine, except the kit kat Mike wanted. Slogan of kit-kat “ having a break , have a kit kat.” In other words, it was NOT a break. It was a breakup. Difference is - in s4 it’ll be El who can’t accept this fact , not Mike. Max having to correct El that Mike is her “ex boyfriend” after the breakup (in s3) foreshadows this.The other couples in s3 who fought -were always still paired together in framed shots (jancy/ lumax) were on a break (but got back together- by the end of s3,  not confident about their futures together, but they still have a distinction from mileven-based on such framing). That mileven didn’t get back together. El in s3 was always on her own and Mike was paired with Will (while the other couples were in frame). 

this could go on and on honestly. there’s so much other stuff proving mileven is not going to be endgame. Not to mention all of Mike’s queer coding (x) XD