#and then betray her bc of it?? the fact that they go into these marriages KNOWING they’re there to force a hostage situation. fucking crazy

[meteortrails]

I really do like big mom as a character bc like. one piece DID need more toxic mothers to balance out all the angelic dead ones and by GOD does charlotte linlin fucking deliver…. genuinely I love how so much of the whole cake island arc is set within the context of like, Intense interpersonal family dynamics. linlin’s obsession with her dead, secretly evil mother and with family and belonging and the way that translates into her authoritarian chokehold on her children’s lives and the country that she’s running….. she needs all of them to stay, and the only way to make sure that they stay is to make sure they’re scared of her (after all, loving her wasn’t enough to make her mother stay). she needs a world where she can be accepted and belong and the only way to get it is to be the one in charge of it, to be somebody that no one can deny. god like she even has horrific emotionally scarring family brunches she’s PERFECT

[vampyama]

a yuu that is a medieval lady and a mother (highly inspired by catelyn stark)

mother!yuu that sees poor riddle rosehearts, the boy without a proper mother, and immediately starts to treat him as she treats her own sons — she sits with him, talks with him about his studies, have tea parties with him, help him with his housewarden chores and in general gives him lots of attention. poor riddle is in a mix of satisfaction for finally having a mom, anxiety bc he wants to make mother!yuu proud of him, and confusion bc he doesn't want to betray his biological mom. in the end, he doesn't know what to do, but oh boy he does sparkle even more with a mother helping and guiding him. she teaches him how to be more gentle but still strict, which is a relief to well everyone

mother!yuu that sees lazy leona and says oh seven hells NO. HELL NO. and tries to cheer him up, specially when she finds out about the fact that he is a prince — she says, hey yeah leona yk ppl die if ur brother dies u're going to be prince regent and you need connections with other nobles not only bc of the possibility of being prince regent but you're MATERIAL OF BECOMING A HIGH LORD you'll eventually need a good marriage contract and for that you need contact with the other lords — besides, as a second born is your duty to make connections and contracts for the crown so yeah START WORKING. NOW PLEASE sweetling ^ _ ^. in general, her words give him an ego boost bc finally someone believes in his prince duties, believes that he isn't just a second born (actually for royalty that does not make sense there is a reason for old nobles having sm kids they want to make sure they have an bloodline heir) and she actually teaches him how to behave like a prince !!! al sorts of political training for leona ! and he's actually REALLY good at being a political figure!! mother!yuu is really proud of her princeling .

[madockisser]

balekin greenbriar and his relationship w humans/jude theory

i was reading qon, and jude thinks of something abt what balekin said and it had me thinking.

“i have heard that the feeling of falling in love for mortals is very much like the feeling of fear.”

balekin had tons of human servants, they’d come and they’d go, he probably enslaved them himself just bc of the vow/glamour of obedience the mortals have to give in order to serve specifically him.

“they could’ve been palace mortals” his servants wear his livery, w his crest on them, so maybe some of them come and go from the palace, but balekin was very cautious, so i doubt he’d wants his brothers and fathers servants all up in his house.

anyway, balekin loves power. like a lot, probably almost as much as he loves himself.

so i wonder if he’d long been aware of humans and their tendencies to mix up the feeling of love and fear, and got off on that power trip.

the same way cardan hates courtiers for their fake admiration, balekin may feel the same way, and so, he seeks the “admiration” from humans that are actually just afraid of him.

and so, he travels to the mortal world (or mortals are brought to him) and forces them into a bargain, probably freakishly obsessed w the way that they fear him, in a completely different way that faeries fear him. since he thinks that mortal feelings of fear are like their feelings of love.

and it’s 10x worse thinking that those humans probably find balekin terrifyingly beautiful all the while he’s abt to ruin their lives. and he knows it too.

the power trip that balekin can find by looking in the eyes of humans he’s about to destroy, convincing himself that they just might adore him, that they will come to serve him, just makes him all the more of a sick and twisted asshole.

it checks out, the way that he treats jude in the undersea. forcing her to kiss him, maybe bc jude’s too tired to be afraid of him? maybe bc balekin wants to feel the power trip of seeing jude afraid of him, convincing himself and glamouring her into adoring him. into wanting to willingly serve him.

the way he also treats her in hollow hall after they’re free from the undersea. “tell me you’re my creature” as though he’s speaking to a lover. disgusting.

also looking back on how he made that guard slap her in twk, like he’s trying to find weak spot in her armor, like he wants to see her afraid.

it’s like a game to him. wanting to see jude afraid, time and time again. his whole life he had taken advantage of humans, but then jude gets one over him and takes his place in power. it’s like he’s trying to get one over her, by making her fear him, by making her serve him.

like he needs constant reassurance that he’s the first born prince and that he deserves love and admiration and servants, bc he was denied his birthright of being king.

looking WAY back, how balekin was the one to find eva and justin, makes me think he may have felt that twisted way abt them too, since they are the only few humans w any semblance of power in the high court. but they didn’t serve him or i would even say fear him(they had protection), so maybe he took it personally and sought out their demise?

that also makes me think abt eva and madoc, and how he might’ve felt abt their relationship. probably initial disgust, but overall jealousy that he didn’t have anything over eva. he was probably so smug when he found them out and told madoc abt them. he’d finally had something over them. and his point of humans and love and fear had been proven. maybe he thought eva feared madoc throughout their marriage, and that she convinced herself it was love.

maybe he thought that he and madoc shared that sickening power trip over humans, which is why he was so sure madoc wouldn’t betray him when it really mattered. he also called madoc a coward after the fact, so maybe he felt that madoc feelings towards humans got in the way of madoc backing him completely. (just speculating)

also the way he regards val moren after killing val morens lover, forcing him to crown him. sickening tbh. he just loves making humans suffer ig

or even in tcp, his coronation. he turns to jude, knowing that he’s a big fat narcissistic asshat, and probably thinks that the only reason that jude is there is bc of him, bc he had her parents offed. and he wants to take advantage of that, by granting her a boon (making her a faerie) so that jude can further owe it all to him. so that maybe she would want to willingly serve him, or maybe he wants to grant her a gift as a way of paying her back for getting her parents killed, since it’s the faerie way yk.

anyway, even if most of this is just speculation, we know he enslaved humans, just the added fact that he just might get off on it is so much grosser.

but do feel free to add on!! this is super interesting and i hadnt thought of this before but it really adds layers to his character.! 🫶

[sarascamander]

Okay since the trope reveal I have a theory! I don't believe Cole will ever approve of Ava and Eli marrying, let's be real here. ESPECIALLY marriage for convenience, like what would be the reason for the marriage? Cole is rich, Aidan is rich, what issue could they ever land onto that they need to marry?

So my theory is that Ava went somewhere far from home maybe for her concert or something but on the way had an accident and got amnesia (one of the tropes). So she doesn't remember who she is or where or who her family is. Enter Eli, who everyone knows stalks Ava and finds out about the accident and takes her in. He didn't tell anyone except maybe Creigh about the fact that he found Ava so while everyone at home is freaking out searching for Ava, Eli made a deal with her for them to get married and sold it to her like "you don't have a home, you're alone, I'm your last and only choice" or "if you marry me, I'll do my best to search for your family and who you were before" and Ava agrees.

I just can imagine Cole (and I can definitely see Landon ratting Eli out) finding out Eli hid Ava the whole time and there and basically storm into the house ready to fucking kill Eli. And Ava felt so betrayed bc he knew about her this whole time and knowingly kept her away from her family and stuff.

God I actually like where this is going 😂 but who knows what's going on in Rina Kent's mind.

[sirsnortsalot]

YOUR TAGS ON THEEEE TOM LOOKING AT GREG ACROSS THE AISLE POST I DSDJKSDJSKJDJKS we shake hands that ep is my entire life for so many reasons i hhhhhhhhhhh. tom's suit being called a gregory. the two of them dressed in black and white when greg says "i do" true to marriage tradition. the fact that when tom sits down in front of greg he literally looks like he's getting on one knee. the way their knees are touching. the way they are sitting so close. the way the two waiters in the background are playfully smacking each other on the ass with towels and both greg and tom look at them wistfully before talking like god i wish that were us. the way greg teases tom a little with the well... keeping him hanging on a little bit. the way greg says "of course". the way their conversation [in that connor asks willa if she really wants this, bc she's kind of giving up her soul wrt money and she says yes i am and i do like the security and wealth but she also likes connor for himself, and connor talks about the age gap!!! and discrepancy in their positions and how they met and came to be and how everyone is always making fun of him/their relationship but she takes him serious and confirms she does want it and then they giggle and laugh it off just like a certain other couple] and body position mirrors connor and willa as well as the cinematography/shots who do actually get married in 4x03 [alone. without the siblings there. almost like a secret ish wedding. hmmm]. the way that nb said 'they wish they were getting married' and the way these mfs act you Know that's actually true and real. the way tom drops the "sporus". the way that after they shake hands, greg's arms twitch out as if to hug tom but then he decides against it bc he's not sure if tom would like that and he doesn't want to ruin this, because everybody else shrinks away from his touch or is disgusted by him but tom opens his arms and greg leaps at the chance, taking tom's shoulders and pulling him in slightly and hugging him tightly, tom literally jostled by the force of the hug.

i Think about the "come with me, sporus" scene a lot.

Oh my god y e s just that one scene felt like peak tomgreg in like 1000 ways 

ESPECIALLY because it’s right after shiv calls tom and tells him about her plan and his IMMEDIATE reaction being “okay, this is my chance to finally hit her where it hurts after her ‘death-by-1000-cuts’-ing me for years, but first i need to make sure greg is safe and on my side” like BEFORE anything else (just checked the script books and greg walks over to him RIGHT after he gets off the phone with shiv, no time to think about anything else) AND THEN ”SPORUS” AND THEN THE MOST ROMANTIC SCENE THAT HAPPENS IN THE (WEDDING) EPISODE AND THEN TOM ‘KILLING’ HIS WIFE I JUST. AUGH THE NERO & SPORUS SHIT MAKES ME GO BATSHIT ISTG HFSKJGHDFKJGHJDFKGHDRKJHY (also while I was in the script books I saw that the hug was unscripted??? It was meant to be just the handshake??? Just like the forehead kiss was unscripted too??? Matthew Mcfadyen is an absolute GODSEND (& nb I guess but yknow) for just ADDING those in UNPROMPTED he’s such a tg truther oml) 

Also can you IMAGINE how greg must've felt at the beginning of the tomshivorce, seeing him and tom going out together to hook up w random models or whatever (i think they were playing it up quite a bit and just wanted to spend time with each other but yknow)  and having the realisation somewhere that “do you wanna come with me, sporus” AND THEN THIS could have been referring to tom wanting to be with greg? Like we know greg knows the story, and we know he knows that tom betrayed shiv and he knows that the tomshivorce is resulting in tom getting a lot closer with him very quickly and he’s not stupid, he can put 2 and 2 together and see himself getting remodelled into the romantic partner for tom that shiv isn’t anymore for him, AND HE DOESN’T SHY AWAY FROM IT! LIKE LOOK AT 4X01, IS THAT THE BODY LANGUAGE AND BEHAVIOURS OF SOMEONE WHO IS AVOIDING THE PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL PRESENCE OF TOM WAMBSGANS FBSKJGHDFJGDFKJY

(i will never shut up about the timeskip <3)

👏 HEART 👏 EYES

[charmixpower]

What kind of arc or character development would you have wanted to give the characters in the series? Ex. in the case of Timmy, what would his character have been like if they had been more interested in developing it?

This is on top of their already present character arcs

1) Bloom learning to be a leader

2) Expansion on the Charmix plot point where Bloom says shes lost faith in everyone and regained it back

3) Stella dealing with her flippant behavior during serious situations (I swear this is an outgrowth of her thinking people only like her for her looks)

4) Stella learning to like other parts of her self (Stella clearly holds her looks up in highest regard bc she thinks that's the only part of her people like and she wants people to like her, so low self esteem is just a natural consequence)

5) Literally anything for Flora

6) It would have been cool if Flora started out with her late seasons character of being a pushover into her s2 character of being more strong willed

7) Tecna acknowledges the fact that she holds winning above living in a lot of situations (aside from that no notes, Tecna character arcs slay)

8) Musa overcoming her insecurity and dealing with some of her attachment issues (Musa's hostile reaction to Stella, and her immediate obsession with Riven are such "please pick me" behavior. I love her)

9) Attaching Musa's insecurity arc to her being more comfortable in her femininity (Musa constantly mocks Stella for her stereotypical traits and that's on "I'm not like other girls")

10) Aisha clearly hates royal decorum, and politics, and all that stuff, so it always felt weird to me in s3 she flips around to being okay with most of it except for arranged marriages. That should have been dealt with. Either by having Aisha stand up to her parents and reject it all, or by having her parents make concessions and her love of her people outweighing her hatred of royal stuff (Aside from that she slayed on the character development front, no notes)

11) Sky needed a s1 Riven arc. Like, it could have been in s2!!! He was being such a fucking control freak at Bloom, he should of been beatened with the "consequences stick" until he had a "I have a heart" moment, thank you

12) Brandon probably has something going on with putting everyone but himself first and being unable to express his emotions from the child soldier thing and I would love to see that addressed

13) Timmy has a character arc in the background it's just never acknowledged??? Every season they just act that that's how he always was, would love to see Timmy becoming more confident as a part of the narrative and not something they just did bc the plot said so

14) PUT RIVEN'S CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT BACK AND STOP FUCKING TOUCHING IT SHOW!! IF HE WAS JUST ALLOWED TO CONTINUE DEVELOPING THE WAY HE WAS GOING IN S1 AND S2 ID HAVE NO NOTES AND YET

15) Literally anything for Helia

16) the Shab stone route is cool, low self esteem perfectionist is so conserned about fucking group projects up

17) Nabu learning what the world is like after being sheltered for so long would be amazing (s4 lies to you, Nabu gets all his romance knowledge from books and Disney movies, he couldn't give relationship advice if the answer punched him in the face)

18) Diaspro has Riven's problem but worse, at least they never regressed his character back to villain. Like wft!!! Diaspro's character should have been allowed to grow after s2

19) Roxy has an actual arc from hating magic to being cool with it instead of just flipping from one to another when her life is in danger. Like I get it, but that wouldn't make her like magic, that would just make her tolerate it bc it saved her life

20) Galatea realizes that Melody has a huge poverty problem and vows to fix it

21) Chimera realizes her mom sucks and helps Stella (this one is Rus wish fulfillment baybe)

22) The Trix actually reacts to the fact that they've gotten their ass kicked every time they fight the Winx and always get betrayed. Like let them have a mental break down and lash out from rage but mostly Icy

23) Seeing how the Trix ended up following the ancestral Witches. NOT LIKE THAT. I vote cult for Stormy and Darcy, and Icy is just kinda like this. Some people just

24) Mirta and Lucy having some sort of conversation, idc if they make up or stop talking I just want SOMETHING

25) I wanna see an older Anne meet Aisha so bad

[reneesbooks]

meja in 3

@chayscribbles thank u for the tag &lt;3

rules: pick an OC and post a song that you relate to them, an image that represents them in some way (aesthetic, picrew, art, etc), and a quote of dialogue or narration from them. feel free to expand or explain!

meja my love. let's talk. salt and brine

song

this was tough bc i make playlists religiously. decided to pick a random from my meja playlist and oh boy did spotify deliver (cw for discussion of domestic violence and miscarriage in the analysis)

so some context. meja is married and was married young, in hass tradition you marry young and have many kids to continue the hass tradition. meja married stian, a spearfisherman who was passing through her village, and moved to his village on the coast. she had one daughter right away, reijka, which disappointed stian because he'd wanted a son. they tried again, and meja lost the pregnancy. stian became more controlling and angry, and meja failed to get or stay pregnant multiple times. stian's abuse grew worse over time, but it was never directed towards reijka so meja let him explain it away. she gets away from him by the end of the story (this is a romance and it has a happy ending) and has some. complex feelings. about him and their marriage in general. some lines in particular:

And I doubt you ever think about the damage that you did But I hold onto every detail like my life depends on it My undying love, now, I hold it like a grudge And I hear your voice every time that I think I'm not enough

And I try to understand why you would do this all to me You must be insecure, you must be so unhappy And I know, in my heart, hurt people hurt people And we both drew blood, but, man, those cuts were never equal

I try to be tough, I try to be mean But even after all this, you're still everything to me And I know you don't care, I guess that that's fine But you know I can't let it go, I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for so long It takes strength to forgive, but I'm not quite sure I'm there yet

i could annotate this entire song if i rlly wanted to bc it makes my brain vibrate at the speed of light about meja

2. picture

meja's refuge is the cove, where she finds kamon on the beach. she continues to meet him there and her excuse for going there all the time is that she sets traps along the shore. no fish swim into those traps, but she picks up plenty of shells and digs up mollusks to bring home, and it's time away from stian if she wants it. she grew up in the foothills, so she loves standing at the edge of the ocean and watching the waves come ashore. fun fact! the north sea is incredibly deep and hass tradition holds that the reason their land doesn't slide into the depths (their equivalent of hell) is due to the waves holding the land up. this is totally an irrelevant detail that has no bearing on the story :)

3. quote

meja's most iconic moment. the night she escapes reijmor, with reijka and her newborn daughter. (another cw for mention of domestic violence)

Meja stands there with Reijka's hand in hers, Eima asleep against her chest, and looks at her friend standing in her way. She feels no remorse. “Move, Tisha.” Tisha shakes her head, her expression hidden by the shadows. “You can't do this, Meja.” “I can and I will.” Her voice is stronger than she expected. “Get out of my way.” The deksa is warm against her collarbone. I know you would defend your home with only your bare hands if you thought you had to. Meja is covered in blood and sweat and tears and she understands the man clutching his deksa, the desperate bravery that comes from having no other choice. “I don't understand,” Tisha says. “I don't expect you to understand.” “How could you betray—” “How could I not?” Meja's hand tightens around Reijka's. “I...” She swallows, steeling herself. “I won't explain myself to you.” “Don't you think I deserve an explanation?” Tisha's voice doesn't raise, as if she's being careful not to give them away. It doesn't reassure Meja at all. “No,” she says. “You don't.” She inhales shakily, shoving down the sobs. “You knew. You always knew what he is. You never helped me, not really.” “I always helped you.” “You let him hurt me for years!” Meja fights to keep her voice low, tears springing to life in her eyes. “You didn't help me, you just turned the other way when the truth was inconvenient to you. I was suffering and you did nothing. So no, you don't deserve an explanation, but I will give you this. The choices I made, I made because the other option was quietly accepting my fate and letting Stian beat me to death without complaint.” Reijka presses against her side, trembling. “I don't care if you don't understand, I don't care if you think I betrayed Bjerkja by laying with an outsider, I don't care if you think Stian had the right to do what he did. It won't change what I did and it won't change what I'm going to do now.” Tisha shifts where she's standing, sighing. “You're a traitor,” she says sadly. “I am a mother.” Meja glares at her. “Get out of my way. I don't want to have to do something that I'll regret doing in front of my daughter.” “I won't stop you,” Tisha says, standing aside. “But I won't help you.” “That's fine.” Meja throws her bag into the boat, helping Reijka climb inside. “I'm used to doing it on my own.”

where is kamon in all of this? :)

tagging @oh-no-another-idea @avrablake @akindofmagictoo and anybody else who would like to do this for an oc!

[love-toxin]

So sorry to ask, but... what exactly is corpse bride?

OHO!!!!!! im so glad you asked >:)) it's one of my favourite childhood movies!!!! I'll put this plot summary under the cut bc im too excited to infodump :,)

I've watched it like a million times, its a tim burton film from 2005 shot entirely with stop motion figures, a lot like NBC! it's got both musical numbers and spoken parts (tears to shed and remains of the day SLAPS if you get a chance to listen to them on spotify or youtube, although the whole soundtrack is really really good--it's directed by danny elfman!)

the plot centers around a man named Victor Van Dort living in a victorian-era village who is the son of a pair of new money fishmarket owners, and has been arranged into a marriage with the daughter of old money aristocrats named Victoria Everglot. although her parents agreed to the marriage primarily for financial reasons because they've found themselves destitute, Victor's in-laws not only openly detest him for his meek personality but they also have a very low opinion of Victoria, as well as being distasteful of having to rely on the wealth of a commoner family to save them from the poorhouse. throw in the fact that the bride and groom haven't met until then but he falls in love almost immediately, as well as the appearance of a passing Lord Barkis Bittern at their home who watches the proceedings, and Victor messes up the rehearsal so badly that he leaves into the woods to go practice his vows so he can hopefully impress his new family, and his new wife. but while he's there, practicing out loud and bemoaning his nerves because he only does them well when he's alone, he ends up putting the ring on a branch-like root and unknowingly summons a corpse out of the ground, who chases after him before pulling him into the underworld with her.

and surprise! when he wakes up after fainting from the shock, he discovers that the branch wasn't a branch at all, but the outstretched hand of a bride-to-be that had been murdered by her fiancé and had her fortune stolen under that tree years before, and has been waiting for her true love to come along and marry her. although a bit naive, she's very sweet and innocent and is so excited to be wed to her new husband, showing off her ring to prove their bond while the other corpses congratulate them and start planning the wedding--she even gives him a wedding present, which is the skeleton of his deceased dog that comes together to play with him again. Victor finds the "downstairs" to be surprisingly bright and colourful and totally unlike the gray, lifeless expanse of the living world, but with such a weak constitution he's totally in shock and insistent on going back home and returning to his living fiancé, to the point that he ends up tricking his corpse bride, Emily, into taking him up so she can meet his parents before their supposed wedding. but instead, he sneaks away once they come up to go see Victoria in secret, who has been worried about his disappearance, and explains what's happened to him while also confessing his love right up until Emily finds them together and jealously drags Victor back down to the underworld. feeling betrayed and hurt at having her heart broken again, she mourns her failed marriage and the fact that it's been ruined because she's dead, and Victor would prefer a woman that's alive even though her friends remind her that she's so talented and has a lovely personality.

while this is all happening, Victoria is trying to convince her family that Victor needs to be rescued and even escapes being locked in her room to head for the church for guidance, only to be taken back by the minister as everyone deems her unreasonable due to hysteria. at this moment, Lord Barkis steps in to comfort her parents and ends up convincing them to let him marry Victoria, with promises that he'll be lavishing her with wealth--but what they don't know is that he's already plotting her death, so he can steal all her family's riches and take her dowry once she's gone. at the same time, while Victor's parents are searching for him, their driver Mayhew ends up dying from a smoking-induced coughing fit and shows up in the downstairs, for him to meet up with Victor and let him know that Victoria has moved on and is getting married to someone else.

and, feeling guilty over the fact that he tricked her, Victor has come back to Emily to apologize and they share in one of their interests, which is playing the piano. upon hearing the news of Victoria's new union, Victor is hurt at losing her but more at ease with the thought of marrying Emily and decides to do so properly--but she soon realizes that in order to do so, Victor has to repeat his vows in the living world and drink poison in order to die, which Emily feels too guilty about asking of him to even try. luckily Victor has overheard, though, and agrees to the terms, and the two of them joined by the undead wedding party bring their festivities upstairs to commence with the marriage. by this time, Victoria has been unwillingly married off to Lord Barkis and is completely depressed, but the reception is crashed by the dead as they flood through the village and cause a panic, to all but the people who soon recognize their deceased family members and lovers and friends and are reunited. abandoned by their own wedding party, a disheveled Lord Barkis insists on Victoria taking all of her family's riches from their coffers so they can steal away from the overrun town--but he becomes furious when she reveals that her family is practically impoverished, and that his perceived wealth was the reason her parents were so eager to marry her off. Victoria storms off to follow the wedding party and slips into the church where Victor is being married. she watches the ceremony, but just as he's about to drink the poison and commit to his undead bride, Emily spots Victoria and stops him from doing so. realizing that the two of them are in love, she can't bring herself to split them apart and gives up her wedding so that they can be together, because she doesn't want to take someone that wasn't meant to be hers.

however, just as Victor and Victoria are reunited, Lord Barkis crashes the wedding and demands Victoria be returned to him, only for he and Emily to recognize each other--she realizes that he was the fiancé that had taken all she had and left her for dead, and a fight between himself and Victor ensues as he stops him from kidnapping Victoria (also because the dead can't get involved or commit murder while they are obeying the rules of the living in their world). Barkis tries to kill Victor by stabbing him but is intercepted by Emily who takes the blow, and turns his sword on him and orders him to leave--but before he does, he takes the immunity he has against the angered crowd of undead to propose a mocking toast against his former fiancé on her failed love, not realizing that the wine he's drinking is poisoned. he dies on the spot, the dead drag him back into the underworld to torture their new arrival on behalf of Emily, and the corpse bride returns her ring to Victor to marry his true love and is set free, her body turning into a cloud of blue butterflies that flutter away towards the moon.

[tenthhell]

Totally didn't forget I was going to add Ori's opinion to this discussion or anything. I don't think that marriage is exactly something native to the Infernal culture or really something most are willing to touch with a ten foot pole for the specific reason that it's essentially a culture of lawyers; they know intimately just how nasty it's going to get if either of you ever want to back out of that agreement, and tbh, when you literally only ever die if someone murders you? I don't know that 'til death do us part' is ever actually applicable to their lives. Eternity is a long time, and there's a whole awful lot that can change in that time.

( As a side note for those who don't know, there are in fact courts in the Hells, but they tend to be p severe. You cannot cheese your way out of things unless you're using loopholes and the like, ie you're not going to get out of the problem by being particularly charismatic, bc that's a really great way to be found guilty and eaten / turned into a lemure / probably a bunch of other horrid shit. Therefore, all of their workings are strictly evidence-based. If you can prove it, or prove why your opponent's evidence is something that you are able to behave in x y z way bc of, permissible. I am by absolutely no means, however, terribly familiar with law anything, so it's an area I'm not getting too specific with -- particularly since my brain structure puts me at a disadvantage to being able to be accurate to the harsh, difficult to worm your way out of legalese that devils adore. )

ANYWAY. That in mind, Orianna sees it as a weird practice and doesn't understand why anyone would put themselves in that kind of situation willingly. Cool that you love each other that much and all, but why go to the lengths to get a binding pact together over it? So it's unlikely she'd ever actually agree to it. I'm not going to say impossible bc there's a possibility she might if it was super important to her partner, but uhhh........ There would likely need to be a strict understanding of 'if you ever betray me in any way, I'm obliterating your entire existence, and it's going to be legally within my right to do so.'

[a-libra-writes]

Hi Libra 💕 I’m back again for your opinions & to pick your brain juuust a little again. I LOVED your answer (about the free cities in Essos, doing my due diligence in researching the Wiki for the fic 🫡). Again, this is a “do you think this makes sense? Could this happen?” Very loaded, I’m so sorry.

So, I decided that the foreign woman in question is a bastard of Tywins. Her mother was a wealthy merchant from Braavos, trading in Westeros. I’m thinking their short-lived affair was about 5-10 years after he became a widower; she resembled Johanna just enough & Tywin was deep in his cups so he was like ok time to ✨make a dumb decision✨. He sent the pregnant Braavosi woman away with a lot of gold, very hush hush. Her daughter was raised well; with the gold Tywin gave, the mother decided to focus that on bringing up his bastard daughter well-educated & refined. I’ve got some more plot points (if you’d care to hear them I’ll be happy to share it!!), but essentially: the bastard daughter arrives in Westeros. She knows of their customs, and very clever + capable within the politics of Westeros.

My questions are 1) do you think Tywin, with a seat now being within the Crown, would legitimize her - especially after she proves herself - and marry her off to a lord for political gain? My reasoning is that his only daughter was already married off to King Robert, he has three Royal grandchildren & his brain is working hard on how he can turn this situation into something he could benefit politically from, potentially

2) Roose is kinda my hyper fixation character rn & I was thinking, to further his own goals, like betraying Robb in the War of the Five Kings (and his pockets - she’d had to have a high dowry being a foreign bastard to sweeten the deal, I think) would he accept or otherwise offer a marriage to her?

(I kinda have this scene of Roose & her getting into a fight. she gets upset, forgets her Common Tongue, and swears at him in Valyrian & it’s givin me a giggle. He’s just like 🧍pls don’t tell ur lord father & she’s like 🤬 *string of Valyrian he assumes is either a threat or continuous insults*)

Thank you, again, if you’re able to find the time & energy for this!! 💕 i decided, I wanna give the foreigner a LOT of power & leverage (I.e, bastard of Tywin) bc Westeros is scary & while she’s capable of protecting herself, lineage is a big factor into how well situations can go.

Thoughts below -

I honestly don't think Tywin would want to keep a bastard around, or he'd at least hide the fact she was his (they do keep Joy Hill around because that was the only child Gerion fathered, and Tywin def had a lot of guilt/emotion about his death even if he denies it). She might be passed off as another Lannister's kid. But this is a central part of your fanfic so let's handwave and move on.

Her being more Westeros-educated and not ""foreign"" would certainly help, with any traces of a Braavosi accent or dress probably coming across as 'interesting' or 'exotic' because it's just enough and not too much.

I don't think she would be legitimized because that would mean Tywin Lannister is admitting to 1) having a bastard in the first place, therefore frequenting whores and 2) he's willing to totally, stubbornly disregard Tyrion as lawful heir (no Jaime is NOT coming back dude he's Kingsguard you can't overturn that STOP THINKING YOU CAN), so I can understand him totally disregarding an out-of-wedlock daughter that is clearly his. That said, like Joy Hill, she can still be used as a bargaining chip because she is still half-Lannister and could come with a dowry. If there's something Tywin can do, it's find a way to use a piece, no matter how it's overlooked by others or not considered. So even if he feels negatively or indifferent of her, she's fair game to be used, like anyone in his family.

as far as roose accepting/gunning for a marriage, you can easily twist this. He accepted Walda because that was the terms of Frey turning on Robb to assist Roose - it's not clear what Tywin gave Roose, but i bet it was less a bribe and more a threat: 'we'll pull back and stop the war, because you know you aren't going to win this, also if you refuse I'll make sure Frey betrays you and Robb dies anyway, so really this is the best option for you getting out alive and on top'. Totally feasible for him to get your character as a bride instead, while Walda is given to some other Northern house to helps or to some Lannister. Brides and girls are just bargaining chips as far as most nobility is concerned, after all. And don't forget how Tywin arranged for Robb to upset the Freys in the first place with Jeyne Westerling!

Anyhoo, those are my thoughts. It's your fic so you can twist and play as you desire; and you could always alter certain events just so in order for things to puzzle out easier in your head. War is chaotic, and alliances (esp those forged through betrayal) can be shaky.

[kim-ruzek]

no when i said losing him i mean their marriage is ending. i like you have faith their marriage is going to go on when even hardcore upsteads think its going to end 🤣 let me re ask the question 😂

if adam comforts hailey after her and jays marriage ends and they end up sleeping together yk kind like how it happened in s6- he comfort her after jay was shot, they got drinks and slept together- if the same happened this season? what you think? would you think he cheat or betray kim even though they are not together? would you lose respect for adam and stop watching show?

It's not really about me having faith but more logistics but whatever. My opinion on what's gonna happen is more complicated than that but sure let's just say I think they're gonna be honky dory.

Now, I have absolutely no idea where in how I've answered these asks you've gotten the idea that if you were to phrase the original one slightly different I'd be any more inclined to answer it like you aren't a troll. ESPECIALLY when I've already pretty much explained my opinions on this subject matter, including if Hailey and Jay just spilt up.

And the fact is that my original answer, even ignoring the fact that you said lose, answers exactly what I think about this inane theory and the possibility of Adam actually doing this.

So I ask you, what on earth is the bloody point of you re-asking me?

I mean it probably is my fault answering these asks and all and giving you the attention you clearly want, but I'm ill and bored so idaf. But seriously piss off now bc you're ruining my tagging system and that upsets the part of my brain that gets very happy at my organisational tags.

[bitterpngs]

hmmm i feel like i probably missed/forgot some details, but in this film you have eri, this 20 year old woman that meets this sweet guy called haruji and they end up really liking each other and they frequently hang out. and it’s a cute romance, but later the older brother finds out that eri is actually married and isn’t being honest with haruji.

however, eri is basically trapped in this loveless marriage with this significantly older american man (ex soldier probably - it’s a 1956 b&w film, so post wwii). eri goes behind her husband’s back and has flings with various men, but apparently haruji is the first man she’s become serious with.

in the film, natsuhisa, the older brother, ends up warning eri to stay away from his younger brother bc he cares about him, but later in the same conversation tells her to have a fling with him so he won’t say anything to his brother (bc according to him, he’d be heartbroken and leave iirc). eri slaps him, but then natsuhisa kisses her. eri bites his lip and makes him bleed and there’s this moment where they stare at each other before eri seems to give him this slow and hesitant smile and they end up kissing again. the older brother ends up pursing her a lot later on and eri always accepts and has sex with him.

looking back, she’s never happy with the older brother, unlike when she’s with haruji, the younger brother. at some point she even tells him to stay away and never come back. the older brother ignores this and claims he’s in love with eri and ends up seeing his younger brother as competition.

at some point, the younger brother plans a camping trip with eri but because of certain events (a intercepted letter that says eri wants to meet a day earlier), natsuhisa ends up going to the meeting place and leaving with/taking eri instead. eventually haruji finds out, looks for them, and ends up finding them. eri is happy because haruji ended up looking for them/for her, but haruji feels so betrayed that he ends up killing both of them with his boat.

ANYWAY. basically it’s interesting to see ig. you have these “sexually deviant” characters that aimlessly kill time, constantly hook up, are constantly bored and don’t value the things the older generations do, etc. except haruji.

and even though eri’s situation is a sympathetic one, it feels like the story is still punishing her. we dont really know how or why she got married (and i feel like i’m missing important information tbh), but she’s clearly unhappy and i’m not rlly sure how possible a divorce would be or how it was perceived back then. she has had flings with men, she’s a woman that’s sought out sexual pleasure, and at the end she ends up dying. despite the potential sympathy, despite the fact that the movie seems to imply she felt pressured to have this hidden relationship with natsuhisa. and even if you look at the end as tragic, at the end of the day, haruji is the more morally upstanding, innocent man that gets revenge on eri and his brother. despite his heartbreak, he lives and gets to continue his life.

ok that’s all i need to do this assignment

[slightlyrebelliouswriter23]

What's your opinion on Vivi? Cos I'm re reading the series and have just finished twk and while she does love her sisters I'm reminded of why I don't like her much there's always something that never struck me right about her mainly it's the whole situation with Heather and how Vivi glamoured her and everything else but also bc of how she deals with her sisters

DISCLAIMER: this post is about defending Vivi Duarte with what little information we are actually given about her, for those who are genuinely open to interpretations on her. if you've made up your mind and do not like Vivi, that's fine, but this is probably not the ask for you!

i love most of the characters in TFOTA. in fact, unless it's Balekin, Valerian, Asha, or Locke, you can be sure i will probably take the time to defend them.

Vivi is funny, outspoken, and (like most HB characters) complex. but i think people's dislike of Vivi is along the same vein as their dislike of Taryn.

both betrayed their sisters in one way or another–Taryn through more obvious modes of betrayal (the Locke situation in TCP and tricking Cardan in TWK), and Vivi through more covert modes (questionable sisterly neglect). but if we look at a person's actions as facts about their character, rather than the result of nuanced motivations, it's easy to dislike them.

i like them precisely because liking them is so much more difficult. not impossible, though—we just have to do a little digging.

I. Words and How They Bind

something very interesting about Vivi that i think is hard to remember for the duration of the series is that, in the prologue of TCP, she vowed to hate Madoc forever:

“'I hate you,' Vivi proclaimed to the tall man with a viciousness that Jude was glad of. 'I will always hate you. I vow it.'”

this isn't something to be taken lightly. it's not a rage-filled but mostly empty threat of a child that can be later assuaged with a few kind words or a handful of sweets. it's a proclamation.

it is explicitly a vow.

to the fae, vows and promises are absolute. just how the people of Elfhame are bound by their word when they pledge themselves to the High King/Queen, or how the fae bind themselves through vows in marriage, Vivi is literally bound to her word.

she will hate Madoc forever.

additionally, it's almost as if she pledged herself to a life of being the opposite of whatever Madoc wants her to be. he wants her to live in Elfhame? she will move to the mortal world when she's old enough. he wants her to attend classes? she will stop going. he wants her to go to the revels and socialise? she'll stay at home and read comic books.

"If it annoys Madoc, it pleases Vivi." (TCP, ch.2)

so it's interesting that Madoc, right after Vivi has made her vow to hate him, tells her not to shirk her responsibilities as the eldest child—and, consciously or not, she proceeds to do exactly that. and perhaps even more interesting is Madoc's constant emphasis on "family over everything", juxtaposed with Vivi's almost apathetic absence from it.

this isn't to excuse Vivi of everything she never noticed with Jude and Taryn by pinning it on some magical vow she made when she was nine. but i do wonder if, because of her vow, there's a little more at play than just carelessness here.

still, even if we are to believe in Vivi's free will, imagine growing up being forced to live with a biological father you viscerally hate, and having your younger sisters—whose parents (and yours) were literally murdered by him in front of your eyes—treat him as more father than murderer.

at that young of an age, i suspect it would be hard to understand why Jude and Taryn didn't hate Madoc viscerally, too. to Vivi, i think it might even feel a little gaslighty.

Jude hints at Vivi's feelings about this in TCP:

“When Vivi wasn't reminiscing about home, she was a terror. She broke things. She screamed and raged and pinched us when we were content. Eventually, she stopped all of it, but I believe there is a part of her that hates us for adapting. For making the best of things. For making this our home.” (TCP, ch.2)

if you're alone in hating someone, it is probably a very isolating experience.

II. Coping or Cop-Out?

Vivi is portrayed as this impulsive, rebel-child with her head in the clouds. her main focus is on escaping a life she never chose for herself. in fact, i think one of the ways Vivi tries to take control of her own life again, after Madoc upends it by murdering their parents, is through escapism.

we see this in her constant fixation on the mortal world, through her voracious consumption of the comics Heather draws, and how she only has one friend in all of Faerie: Rhiya.

“All our new memories are of here, and Vivi has only a passing interest in those.” (TCP, ch. 2)

suffice it to say, she has not bothered putting down roots.

one fascinating theme, which has become apparent to me recently, is that the Duarte sisters each have a very distinct way of handling the trauma they've endured.

Jude carves out a space for herself through strength, skill, and intellect- fight

Vivi seeks any methods of escape- flight

Taryn relies on relationships with others to ensure her security at court- fawn

each of these is a psychologically recognised trauma response. so if Vivi seems distant or detached from the happenings in Faerie, it's because of this coping mechanism.

however, the difference between Vivi's response and that of her sisters, is that hers is a coping mechanism for a memory of the past. Jude and Taryn's responses are survival mechanisms for current ongoing trauma.

i don't think Vivi, as one of the fae, recognises the privilege she has over her sisters.

if there's anything negative to be said about Vivi's character, it is this. that she either presumes that since Madoc claimed Jude and Taryn as his own, they would be just as accepted by the fae is she or Oak is, despite their being mortal; or worse, that she is as Jude suspects—altogether oblivious to the plight of mortals living in Elfhame.

either way, it's not as if any of them talk about it.

but if Vivi's words truly do bind her will, i wonder if existing in a space occupied by Madoc is difficult. i wonder if it weighs more on her than it does on her sisters. i wonder if noticing details of other people's lives is difficult when your mind is totally consumed by a hatred for one person.

i think Jude, of all people, might be able to understand that.

III. Age is Not But a Number

we sometimes forget that, although she is older than Jude and Taryn, Vivi is still a kid herself. i believe she is said to be around 19-20 in the books.

now, i know the "adult" age for humans is 18, but frankly that doesn't really mean anything in our world, much less Elfhame. even with my 25 years (which is still quite young btw), i look back at years 19 and 20 and think about how immature i was then.

i was barely able to care for myself sufficiently. i was in no way qualified to care for a whole other person (or two).

there's this weird theme in YA fantasy novels where the fate of the whole world often rests on the shoulders of kids. where the only adults they know are either obsessed with power or dismissive and impervious. and while i do think kids are capable of a lot, and it's certainly neat to imagine a world where they are given enough respect and credibility to affect positive change in their societies, i don't think it's good or fair to conflate capability with responsibility.

just because someone is ostensibly capable of doing something, it doesn't mean they should have to do it. especially not alone.

which brings me to my biggest point: it was never Vivi's responsibility to raise her sisters.

even when they lived in the mortal world, where the twins were relatively safe, it was presumably Eva and Justin who made sure all of their needs were met. it wasn't Vivi's responsibility then, and it isn't when they get to Elfhame, either.

so my question is, do you actually have a problem with the way Vivi specifically treated the twins? or are you frustrated with her lack of protecting them from the way they are treated by Elfhame in general?

because in my mind, that burden is entirely Madoc's to bear. he assumed the responsibility of protecting them when he murdered their parents. he even says so himself in the prologue of TCP:

“'They are the progeny of my wife and, thus, my responsibility. I may be cruel, a monster, and a murderer, but I do not shirk my responsibilities.'"

yet, how are we meant to believe he honoured his duties to them when they lived every day terrified?

we, as a fandom, seem to have many excuses at the ready for Madoc:

"he loved them in his own way"

"he did the best that he could in raising them"

"he didn't treat them any differently, he regarded them as his own, what an amazing complex relationship!"

and while i think these are commendable and true statements, i also think they should be able to coexist with:

"he didn't do enough to protect them, he should've done more"

"because he was obsessed with power, he was also a bit neglectful"

"he had his own interests in mind more than his children"

so if the twins ever felt unsafe or unwanted in Elfhame, we should only have Madoc (and potentially Oriana, whose guilt is by association) to blame.

IV: Heather the Harbinger of Clarity

to me, Vivi glamouring Heather at Taryn's wedding in TWK was the panicked action of a young person who felt guilty for letting something bad happen to someone she loved. much in the same way as the time Vivi whisked Jude and Taryn back to the mortal world for a few days because they missed home, Vivi just wanted to make the problem go away quickly.

and much in the same way as their escape to the mortal world when they were little didn't fix the girls being homesick, glamouring Heather didn't fix anything like Vivi thought it would. it only made everything worse.

so was it a good move to glamour Heather without her permission? no. it was a mistake.

i don't think she realised the gravity of what she was doing, and it showed the audience (as well as Heather) that maybe she wasn't quite ready for a relationship.

i do think Heather is an important piece of all of this, though. because Heather's problems in Elfhame will be the same or similar to Jude and Taryn's problems. the only difference is, Vivi is directly responsible for what happens to Heather, since Vivi is the one who brought her into the world of the fae.

i'm hopeful that their relationship will shed a light on the subject of mortals in Elfhame that Vivi had yet to see. and perhaps someday we will get to see her make amends with Jude and Taryn, too.

TLDR:

Vivi is bound to her vow of hatred for Madoc, and therefore, is isolated by being the only one who truly hates him.

the way she copes with that is by running away to the only place she's ever known love (the mortal world). this makes her appear detached and neglectful in protecting the twins, which rubs people the wrong way.

but that was never Vivi's job. it was Madoc's.

we see Vivi acting like a kid because she is one. and part of being a kid is acting impulsively and selfishly sometimes.

at the end of the day, Vivi is learning how to best care for herself at the same time as she is learning how to love others to the best of her abilities.

i don't fault her for making the mistakes she does. that's part of growing up.

—Em 🖤🗡

more on words & vows in the fae

more theories & analysis

[helpwhatsthis]

I absolutely love your Love Divides story, the angst was just amazing, I have to say I hate Olivia, like she knew how y/n felt, and she was dating Eddie and still she encouraged y/n to confess, I'm also pissed at Eddie, putting aside the fact that he didn't tell y/n that he had a gf and still acted all touchy feely with her, he betrayed Carter, like he saw how devasted he was when Olivia nad him broke up and still did it behind his back, like come on dude, what type of friend are you?, I'm angry at both of them. I feel so sad for y/n, unrequited love is painful but when there's a betrayal from people you considered friends is worst. Anyway I love the angst and the fluff, I hope to see Eddie jealous when other men start to pay attention to her and he's not in her life anymore. I really want to see her growth (not just get or physical but in a more personal/mind/soul aspect) realizing and growing into her own persona without Eddie. Sorry for the long post, could you tag me in the story please 🥺, I absolutely love it. You're an amazing writer.

oh my god thank you so much! i tear up a little with all of the nice things you guys keep saying, ngl!

honestly, when i decided the direction i was going with olivias' character, i was really contemplating why she would go for eddie. i figured she would be really attracted to the way eddie is so good to reader and takes care of her. also, eddie and olivia aren't necessarily dating; they're just kinda fwb. eddie also knew the same night carter and olivia broke up, bc if you remember they had a conversation after reader stopped listening. i think it puts the "marriage and babies" scene into a whole new perspective.

and yes, you should be mad at eddie (only a little, bc he really does love reader, he's just a little confused) and olivia, but i think there is a moment in the next chapter that will make you feel so bad for them.

the unrequited love thing was so painful to write, really had me channeling what we know abt young jopper btw...

i'm also really excited to have her grow as a character, we know she's like hop so all her pain is kinda going to turn her into a little badass; which i think would make eddie very proud and kinda sad at the same time. he probably wonders where the hell his sweet girls went. plus the powers... unlimited potential there!

[laadgovernorandsankadevi]

Hi Lg&Sd.. Was wondering what are your thoughts on the first Shyam reveal…? Imo it was done brilliantly with each person revealing different pieces of information…. But at the same time it was soooo irritating bc of Shyam twisting words and Arnav being quiet…. What is your opinion? Thank uuu

Hello hello love,

Ooo I haven't been really asked any serious canon questions, and I kinda feel nervous answering this!

My opinion is similar to yours. I think the revelation was done quite well. The slow build up since its revealed to the viewers that Shyam is the one behind Arnav's kidnapping makes the revelation worth while to a huge extent, and I think that's where a lot of frustration of Arnav being quite stems from.

I think the most important element of the first reveal is that none of the family members including Manorama questioned the accusations thrown at Shyam.

My take is that the family members had been growing wary of Shyam and his excuses since his late arrival on Teej, and when he abandoned Anjali on their wedding anniversary. I think the fact that his disappearance wasn't taken as uncharacteristic, but there reaction was more along the lines of "He left today? He just left on this day, on your anniversary!" says a lot about how the Raizada's perceived Shyam.

Family members were shocked and taken aback by the extent of accusation yet none of them, especially Akash did not think the accusations were based on lies. I did love how NK was there to account and confirm everything Khushi had to say about Shyam, especially since Manorama witnessed Khushi in a similar situation as Arnav did on the terrace, NK's testimony helped cloud her view of how she treated those accusations. Of course, we might think that NK being there for Khushi on every occasion doesn't provide proper leverage and Shyam tries to use that impression as a way to paint NK as a fool, but NK is also one of the few people in Shantivan who doesn't lie to anyone without probable cause.

I think more than NK's words, it was Payal unintentional revelation of how Shyam posed as a bachelor and lived with them that did more for Arnav stay quiet because at this point Arnav heard all the witness testimonies he needed to hear to fully trust Khushi and all of her actions.

I think Arnav being quiet comes from a place of lack of material evidence against Shyam. If he were to add into the statements presented by NK, Payal, and Khushi, it would again go back to he said, she said. Him being quite restores some of the credibility of him being rational in contrast to the impulsive and defensive tone that NK, Payal, and Khushi had in their accusations.

His reason, stating that he's throwing Shyam out for betraying his sister, and hurting his wife holds more weight in the eyes of the family than him offering any verbal testimony. Everyone knows Chotte is overprotective about Di. Everyone sees this because of the way Arnav acts, and reacts about his sister rather than what he says. A lot of what Arnav feels about someway is understood by his family through his actions, rather than his words.

Obviously a combination of that would be more effective in a lot of other situations besides this one. I think our reaction as viewers who are coming off the high of seeing this man get away with so much is of frustration because we want Shyam to be punished. We want to see a pay off for all his atrocious actions but Arnav himself is unaware till after his marriage about the extent of damage Shyam has repeatedly caused. Even in the last of Shyam, no one truly finds out the extent of damage Shyam has caused overall, or has been exposed to the list of atrocities this man has committed.

NK starts his accusations towards Shyam to corroborate Arnav's kidnapping and back up Khushi's words. Payal's accusation is to hold Shyam accountable for the mischaracterization of her sister. and then Khushi starts her accusations off by holding Shyam accountable for Arnav's state. It was not Anjali being cheated on that pushes the bar for Khushi, it's her Arnav ji being harmed that pushes her over the edge.

This is getting very long but to answer your question, I think Arnav remaining quiet while frustrating lets him retain a bit of his credibility in eyes of Akash and Deviyani at least because he points at the emotional damage Shyam caused to the two women in his life rather than the physical damage he faced through his hands. It's not about what's right or wrong because there isn't any evidence for that, but there is evidence for the emotional upheaval his presence is causing within the revelation and that makes his actions justified in my eyes.

I think Shyam was at his best in this scene. We finally saw a glimpse of the infamous lawyer brain to some extent and he was great at bouncing off defensiveness of NK and Khushi. I missed Mama ji in this scene so much because I think he would've been in line with Deviyani rather than Manorama!

I hope my words make some sense. This is just my take on the scene, so please don't hold me to it! This is also the very first ask I've gotten asking me to share my views which I did not expect at all. Thank you so much for a wonderful question! I was very nervous to answer because I am used to india-forum's format for discourse.

- LG&SD

[a-master-procrastinator]

Long ass post about the Eternal family not being a copy-paste from ATLA (aka I like the memes but my god can you please stop)

Because some people truly think that Vaylin is off-brand Azula, Arcann is Zuko and so on.

It's. Called. A. Trope. (I mean how often do we come across abusive manipulative fathers in media? Mothers who couldn't much to change anything? Children, desperately looking for their parent's approval no matter what?)

Of course, you have to consider the fact that the writing of ATLA is simply better than of KotFE/ET, so this might have been one of the reasons why people say that.

Spoilers for Avatar: The Last Airbender, Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne expansions!

Okay, so here's my unprofessional, maybe biased, not super deep take.

(not going to mention that all of them are members of royal, ruling family, kinda obvious)

What roles do they play in their stories? Well, both Valkorion and Ozai are main antagonists, but their presence throughout the story is very different. Ozai is rarely shown in first two seasons, we don't even see his face until season 3. He doesn't have a direct connection to the protagonist, they only meet at the very end of the show, and Ozai's role is to pose a threat to the world, while Aang's is to save it. Valkorion, on the other hand, is constantly on the screen, interacting with the main character, challenging their viewpoint and influencing them directly. His end goal is similar to Ozai's (destroy everything and be the only ruler of the his nation), but with one major difference - he's trapped in Outlander's mind, so to achieve his goal Valkorion attempts to take control of the main character. Their interactions play important role in the story, and we spend a lot of time with Valkorion.

In addition to that, their relationship with children are also not exactly the same. It seems like Azula is Ozai's favorite and Zuko is a failure in his eyes until he meets his expectations, and the same goes with Vaylin, Arcann and Valkorion, right? Well, partially. Indeed, Valkorion and Ozai's treat their sons in similar ways (are disappointed in them until they meet their expectation by doing something that goes against their morals), but when it comes to Vaylin and Azula, it's not that easy. See, Valkorion claims that Vaylin was always his favorite creation (even though we know it's actually his empire), and he certainly seems to take pride in her potential in the Force. But her power is the very reason he's afraid of his own daughter, and in this fear Valkorion literally locks Vaylin away and allows to put her through physical and mental torture just to make sure she won't become a threat, won't overpower him. Maybe he thought of her better than of Arcann, but she wasn't his favored child for sure. I don't want to say that Azula hasn't experienced abuse from Ozai, but for the most part he clearly favored her over Zuko. He has never shown fear of Azula's power and abilities (or at least I haven't noticed), quite the opposite - allowed her to do a lot, as long as she brings results.

I could also mention their slightly different characterization (mostly that we get more characterization of Valkorion, get to learn his motivations, views, philosophy and all that, also he's portrayed as more nuanced, even if he not really is) and role in their respective governments (ozai is one of many Fire Lords and arguably not the greatest, while Valkorion is a god to citizens of Zakuul, their only Immortal Emperor), but those are details, and I think you get the point.

What's similar: role of the main antagonist, manipulative and abusive father, goal of destruction of everything that isn't their nation/empire, relationship with disgraced son.

What's different: presence in the overall narrative, relationship with the main character, relationship with daughter, role in their societies.

Senya and Ursa are even less similar. Yes, they both are mothers who love their children, but have to leave them, but these are probably the only things they have in common. Just as with Ozai and Valkorion's presence throughout the story, Ursa is only shown in flashbacks (for obvious reasons), and Senya is one of major characters in KotFE and (a bit less major) in KotET. Ursa leaves because she has to kill Azulon in order to save Zuko, and later isn't present in the story (I'm aware that her fate is told in comics, but we aren't talking about it). Senya leaves because when she tries to take children with her, they refuse, and she understands that she can't force them to, nor she can help them to break free from Valkorion's manipulations. For a long time she's absent from Arcann ad Vaylin's lives, but at the time of game events she attempts to save her children and stop the madness and destruction they've caused, and it isn't a small part of the story.

I also want to add that their relationship with Ozai and Valkorion are also different, but can't say much about Ursa. I heard that she didn't choose this marriage and suffered emotional (and maybe physical???) abuse from Ozai. I can say with confidence, though, that Senya genuinely loved Valkorion, and strangely enough, he seems to at very least respect her. But, of course, this wasn't the best marriage either.

Plus, we see more of Senya's relationship with Vaylin than Arcann or Thexan, but with Ursa we see her more with Zuko than Azula. Just a detail to remember.

(also Senya is simply a better character but that besides the point, moving on. in this house we stand Senya)

What's similar: role of loving and caring mother, abandoning their family at some point.

What's different: presence in the overall narrative, relationship with husband, characterization in general.

Boy, where do I even begin. Vaylin and Azula are similar in that they are both extremely powerful (one is firebending prodigy, the other is potentially stronger than Valkorion), both are cruel "craaaaazy" (i hate that cliché), both are younger sisters, have serious mother issues (seemingly more so than father issues), both go through betrayal of people they could always rely on, which eventually leads to their downfall. But when I took a look at their personal arcs, it became clear that they aren't the same (unfortunately, Vaylin's arc is very rushed and underdeveloped, but we'll have to go with what we have and my personal view, sorry).

There's a really good video about writing corruption and madness, and I'm going to base my thoughts on it. To summarise it: a good corruption arc should have 4 components:

- the character has a specific goal (or a goal and subgoals);

- in pursuit of said goal they become the cause of a significant event that brings serious consequences;

- as the result of these consequences, character abandons their morals, ideals or a code in pursuit of goal;

- character either will not achieve their goal or will succeed, but it won't be enough to satisfy them.

And then the author brings Azula's arc as one of the best examples of compelling story of corruption (so basically, she represents it perfectly). In short, Azula's main goals are perfection and control, and subgoals help achieve the main ones. In pursuit of these goals, Azula causes Mai and Ty Lee to betray her (by pushing them too far to do something they wouldn't do), which then causes her to become paranoid, which makes her to attempt controlling everything and everyone around her, *breathes* which makes her lose control over herself and ....

Now, I thought if Vaylin's arc could fit into a corruption one, and next part will be based a lot on my assumptions and personal view of her character (plus rushed writing doesn't help), but I think yes (or at least mostly). The difference is in goals, ideals and details.

While the story strongly makes us think that Vaylin's goal is freedom (or control over her life and everything around her) or power and destruction, I think it's actually self-determination (which was said by Tenebrae in 6.2) and feeling safe. Let me explain (and here I thought this would be a short comparison). Sure, when Valkorion caged Vaylin on Nathema, he took choices and control over her life from his daughter. But let's not forget whom Vaylin blames for this (even more than Valkorion): her own mother, and I think this details tell us that the most important thing that Vaylin lost on Nathema is feeling safe. Then, after Arcann brought her home, I assume Vaylin still didn't feel safe enough under Valkorion's rule, still too afraid that he'd simply send her back to that hellish place.

It's when Valkorion is struck down Vaylin finally has a feeling of personal safety, even if she isn't the one on the throne. Why? Because back on Nathema there were two people who haven't turned on her - Arcann and Thexan (yes, this is also a huge assumption, bc the game states that only Thexan visited her, but it doesn't make much sense).

I've always noticed (and I'm not alone in this) that her behavior in Fallen Empire is different from the way she acted in Eternal Throne. Most likely bc of rushed writing, but I see a character driven reason here. In first of these expansions, Vaylin is the second person in power on Zakuul, and with Arcann being in charge, person she can trust more than any other living being, she feels safe - she can test her power, and now Valkorion won't prevent it, she can do pretty much everything she wishes, and the most Arcann will do about this is mildly complain (without blaming her). Really would be nice if we got to see any normal hobbies of Vaylin (like wasn't there something about books or art?), but I digress. She might have some questions about Arcann's tactics, but they get along just fine. The important thing to note is Vaylin not seeking to hunt the Outlander personally, to rule or conquer the rest of the galaxy, or trying to achieve absolute freedom or power. She's kinda there.

This, however, changes when Arcann doesn't allow Vaylin to kill Senya. Their relationship was getting somewhat worse towards the end of KotFE, but this is a turning event Vaylin caused by attempting to strike her mother. By saving the person Vaylin blames for all the trauma from sending her to Nathema, Arcann threatened her feeling of safety. And now Vaylin starts to believing that to achieve safety she now needs to kill people who hurt her (that's why she's so determined to find Senya and Arcann), take the throne and hunt down Outlander (she was manipulated by SCORPIO to these subgoals).

(The following is the weakest, I'll admit, but I hope I can at least express what I see). So, in trying to achieve goals she didn't want before Vaylin loses in self-determination, being either driven by overwhelming anger or manipulated by others (SCORPIO or Commander on Odessen), desperately trying to accomplish anything, or even goes against her morals (like by erasing GEMINI's free will protocols, when earlier she agreed that freedom to choose is important; or breaking the deal on Odessen). All of these result in her downfall.

But even this isn't the end. The key difference between arcs of Azula Vaylin lies in it's resolution, or that Vaylin have a chance to overcome corruption in the main narrative (and Azula doesn't. again, not including comics here, sorry). After death, Vaylin is again controlled by Valkorion in Outlander's mind. First time physically (she can't resist it), second time mentally. This is where Vaylin has to choose - kill brother who betrayed her and Commander who killed her, or go against Valkorion, person responsible for almost all of her pain and trauma. She has t choose by herself, and I think it's a good start.

Now, before 6.2 we all thought Vaylin was dead for good, but that story update hinted at possibility of her coming back to life. What I like to think is that now that she dealt with people responsible for her trauma (helped defeat Valkorion and actually for once listened to Senya), Vaylin can now have a different life, finding herself with support of someone she doesn't hold a grudge against and who treats her well (Satele, I mean).

I'm so sorry for going into details, but I needed this long explanation to present the point (and I suck at explanations). As said before, this is my version of her arc, and most likely wrong interpretation, but even with personal freedom of choice, Vaylin character differs from Azula a lot.

Need I mention that Vaylin relationship with Arcann and Valkorion are drastically different from those between Azula, Zuko and Ozai?

(Also a little detail - with royal family of Fire Nation, Azula is the golden child, while with Tiralls it's actually Thexan, not Vaylin).

What's similar: role of extremely powerful, emotionally damaged daughter with little to no regard towards others, close people betraying them, resulting in their downfall.

What's different: characterization, role in the narrative, relationship with father and brother.

Arcann and Zuko is the most difficult part, but I still believe that calling Arcann just a cheap copy of Zuko is incorrect.

So, they fall into role of less successful son, always getting disapproval from father, being in shadow of more talented sibling, both obsessed with capturing the main character but ending up helping them end the war after going through a redemption arc with help of caring family member. Even both have scars on left side of face. Yeah, seems similar. I still think they are different characters.

Let's start with their relationships with family. In Valkorion section I said that his attitude towards Arcann is similar to that of Ozai towards Zuko, so not going to spend too much time here. However, there's slight difference - Zuko didn't kill his father even he had a perfect opportunity (bc it wasn't his goal), Arcann did (bc it was one of his goals), which says something about their characterizations.

Zuko and Ursa were shown to have a good mother-son relationship, and it played a role in Zuko's character. With Arcann and Senya, we don't really know (not much was shown in expansions). We know Arcann didn't hate his mother, but possibly didn't have warm memories of her either. The reason is most likely, like Senya said, her children wanted nothing to do with her (which is a bit untrue about Vaylin, but okay) and leaned more towards Valkorion. We need to remember that on Zakuul Valkorion isn't just one of many great leaders, he's the greatest, and seen as a god by most citizens, so safe to assume the same would apply to his children as well.

Zuko and Azula's siblingship (i'm out of words) is a bit similar to Arcann and Vaylin's in way of brother knowing that his sister isn't good, but still caring about them (even if not showing). At least it's what I saw. What's different is how Azula treats Zuko, compared to how Vaylin treats Arcann. I think Azula showed compassion or concern for Zuko maybe twice, but I'm not entirely convinced that it was 100% sincere. Vaylin, on the other hand, seems to trust and care about Arcann (with bits of sass and questioning his life choices), and switching to complete opposite after him saving Senya. Also, I don't she ever called Arcann a failure in their father's eyes.

Now I want to say that their roles in stories aren't the same either. Sure, both are introduced to us as antagonists, but in reality, Zuko was never a true antagonist (we get to learn this somewhere mid-season 1), when Arcann remains the main antagonist for whole of KotFE. Zuko didn't start a war and didn't participate in conquest of other nations too much, his main goal was to capture the Avatar so to restore his honor (and deserve his father's forgiveness). Honestly, I think it's safe to say the Zuko is one of two main protagonists of ATLA. Why does Arcann want to capture the Outlander? Solely because his father's spirit still lives inside this person's mind, and the best solution to keep Valkorion away from the galaxy is not letting the Outlander free (hence the carbonite freezing). And Arcann doesn't want or need Valkorion's forgiveness when he attempts to kill him (or kills him, depending on your choice. anyway, his action directly leads to Valkorion's "death"). And right after that he becomes a ruler of Zakuul and begins the conquest of Republic, Sith Empire and everything he can reach (the reasoning behind this is still unclear to me though; maybe because he was raised with ruling Zakuul in mind and he didn't anything else, idk). Point is, he's responsible for war and main's character imprisonment, which makes him the main antagonist of KotFE. They have it the opposite ways - Zuko starts as disgraced prince, supported by a little group of people, and in the end he's recognized and appreciated by his nation, and Arcann starts as respected by his empire, later becoming less and less loved, until some groups start rebelling his rule, and in the end he doesn't get to rule Zakuul again.

This leads me to their morals. See, Zuko didn't have the worst morals in Fire Nation, even more, he expressed care for loyals soldiers of his nation before getting punished by Ozai. During first season (and about a half of second one) his views on other nations are what he was taught before. However, these views are challenged by travelling in Earth Kingdom, witnessing people suffering from war Fire Nation started and hating its people (you already know all of this), and with this he comes through final stage of redemption when he's back home. Unfortunately, Arcann doesn't go through this, and he's shown to be more ruthless.

Alright, when it comes to their redemption arcs, well let's say they are different (both in quality and the way they go through it), I'm just a bit tired of long explanations at this point. Zuko's arc is one of the best ever put on television, and Arcann's... well, it definitely has potential, but is criminally underdeveloped (there are other people who will explain it better than I ever could).

What's similar: role of disgraced son, living in shadow of their sibling, serious injuries on the left side of face (though with different meanings), obsession with capturing the main character, having a redemption arc.

What's different: role in the narrative, role in their society, characterization, relationship with sister and mother, different end goals (before redemption), paths to redemption.