#and pretend the show ended in like s7 when cas came back?

[helianthus21]

Sending you lots of love because we all fucking need it right now *hugs*

thank you anon! *hugs you back* hope you’re doing okay!

at least we have fandom. i’m a firm believer of #Fuck Canon so it’s easy to just take these characters and run off with them. it’s not their fault they were stuck in this stupid show, we’re gonna give them a better ending in a million different ways in a million different fics<3

[norahastuff]

@sinnabonka be careful what you ask for - here’s my (semi-coherent) rant on the whole Kripke saying ‘we would have hated his ending so much more’ thing…

The fundamental difference is that Kripke was always writing a tragedy. At no point did he ever pretend otherwise. Love or hate his choices, that’s what his era had always been building towards. You can’t watch 5x22 and say any part of that came out of nowhere. 

(Sidenote, that’s also one of the reasons why people claiming Sam and Dean are ‘soulmates’ completely baffles me. The whole point of 5x16 was that Sam and Dean were never fated to be together. One of them was supposed to kill the other and they were supposed to spend eternity sequestered in their separate heavens, never fully understanding each other’s perspectives on their roles in the other’s lives. Instead they chose to love and trust each other, heaven and fate be damned. I mean, hell, remember this conversation from 5x22?

SAM: You're gonna let me say yes?

DEAN: No. That's the thing. It's not on me to let you do anything. You're a grown – well, overgrown – man. If this is what you want, I'll back your play.

SAM: That's the last thing I thought you'd ever say.

DEAN: Might be. I'm not gonna lie to you, though. It goes against every fiber I got. I mean, truth is... You know, watching out for you... it's kinda been my job, you know? But more than that, it's... it's kinda who I am. You're not a kid anymore, Sam, and I can't keep treating you like one. Maybe I got to grow up a little, too. I don't know if we got a snowball's chance. But... But I do know that if anybody can do it... it's you.

That conversation is the pay off for a fundamental misunderstanding that’s existed between them almost their entire lives, a misunderstanding that 5x16 and their separate heavens are built around, and there Dean is just laying it all out there. Is there anything that even comes close to that level of poignancy in 15x20?)

Dabb era, on the other hand, had decidedly not been building to a tragedy. The whole focus was on “there’ll be peace when we are done” and “both Sam and Dean acknowledge that they need more than just each other and neither of them can be happy when it’s just the two of them alone.” S11 -s15 had been repeatedly hammering in those points, only to suddenly do a 180 on both of those core concepts in the finale. Instead they tried to clumsily cloak a tragedy as a happy ending. There is not one moment of nuance in 15x20. It’s all such heavy handed storytelling, whether we’re talking about the stupid montage or choosing to highlight Sam’s isolation by showing him make only one slice of toast instead of two because get it? He’s alone now? (I wonder if Kripke watched that scene? God, I so badly want to hear him talk about toastgate. Let’s be real, though, I highly doubt the guy’s watched any episode past s7. His idea for the finale comes as an ending to his era of the show aka s7 at the latest. Spn has tonally changed so much since then.)

Also, Cas had only been on the show for two seasons by the time 5x22 rolled around, and was only a regular in one of them and yet he still played a prominent (and iconic - see: “Hey, assbutt!”) role in Swan Song and had a sensical and thought provoking ending. Not to mention, Dean showed 100x more emotion over Cas in 5x22 compared to 15x20, and, at that point, Cas didn’t have anywhere close to the level of emotional importance he would eventually come to have to Dean. And yet 5x22 honoured his role in both the story and in Dean’s life, while 15x20 completely ignored it.

So, no, Kripke, I absolutely would not have hated your ending more than 15x20. Say what you want about the guy (and believe me, I know his era had its fair share of problems) but cohesive storytelling has never been one of his issues. I have no doubt that he would have written a tragedy, but a) he would have built to that and b) if 5x22 is any indication, at least everyone would have been in character and he would have acknowledged that it actually was a goddamn tragedy. Because I can watch Swan Song and come out seeing that it’s a tragic tale about love, brotherhood, defying fate aka turns out you can fight city hall and free will is not an illusion. 

I have no fucking idea what I’m supposed to take away from 15x20. It didn’t even try to say anything. If it did, I certainly didn’t get it. 

So, yeah, I’ll take a well-written coherent tragedy over whatever the hell 15x20 was any day.

[impostoradult]

This is time that was allotted to these storylines by canon, offering an expectation of meaning and importance, offering what results in a promise—not time the fans imagined or made up, not something they feel nebulously entitled to, but time they spent on plots the canon gave to them. (Cas means something to Dean after all these years and a love confession. Bucky means something to Steve after all these years and a snap. Jaime’s project of growth and his meaningful relationship with Brienne is something worth investing in.) But instead of saying, yes, you spent all this time watching these scenes, feeling these moments, taking this in—you grew with this character, with these relationships (grew in many cases away from the set starting point)—here is your promised meaning, again and again, these properties snatch the rug away and then pretend blithely they cannot understand why “entitled fans” are so upset.

I’ve been meaning to write my version of this argument for a while now, and I suppose this article is just as good a reason as any.

My thesis, in short, is that lack of queer representation actually isn’t what is creating ~the problem~ here. What’s creating the problem is the overriding power of heteronormativity as a kind of ‘trump’ story logic that is allowed to steamroller everything else into oblivion. (And yes, there actually is a substantial difference between those two things)

Sub-thesis 1: Representation Actually Isn’t A Strong Argument for Destiel (or any particular ship/character)

Controversial, I know.  The representation argument (while an extremely valid argument as applies to popular culture in general) is actually not a very good argument when it comes to why Dean should be explicitly queer and Destiel should have been consummated. 

For one, there’s no reason -- exclusively from the standpoint that it is a moral imperative that queer people are represented in media -- why any particular character or set of characters should be that representation. The ethical cultural mandate to represent marginalized groups does not mandate that any one character or set of characters in any particular given story be that representation*. Yes, even if you as a member of that marginalized group happen to identify with that character. Even then, it isn’t OWED to you. (I think writers should take those trends of identification seriously, and think about what it means to marginalized groups, and act accordingly. But I don’t think it creates an OBLIGATION)

*I’d argue the primary caveat to this would be in stories where the character’s situation or arc is directly related to struggles experienced by that marginalized group (i.e., casting mostly white actors in stories where those characters are experiencing racial oppression)

For another, if representation of queer characters were primarily dictated by fandoms, 90% of queer characters in media would be white, conventionally attractive men. (That might be overstating it a bit, but fandoms have serious biases when it comes to shipping and what kind of characters they latch onto for queer interpretation, and that’s one of the reasons I’m grateful queer representation is not primarily linked to our tastes/preferences). 

The representation argument is a very valid argument when examining popular culture as whole, and when looking at broader trends for example, within a genre, or a whole network. But no particular TV show is obligated to make particular characters within it queer just because representation is a moral imperative as a broader cultural issue. 

Sub-Thesis 2: Heteronormativity Creates Stupid/Badly Constructed Stories

The actual problem here is how heteronormativity creates a kind of trump logic that overrides coherent storytelling. 

I’m not upset about what happened on Supernatural because I think we missed out on representation. There is actually plenty of ~better~ representation elsewhere, and there will continue to be more as time goes on. The representation issue is peripheral at best when it comes to analyzing what went ‘wrong’ with Supernatural. 

The key issue here is that stories need to make sense, not just in terms of plot (although that matters), but in terms of character growth, emotional arcs, etc. The ending of Supernatural is bad because it treated massive pieces of character growth and one of the most significant emotional arcs of the whole show as if it was ultimately inconsequential -- which is bad storytelling and doesn’t make sense. 

And YES, we are ‘owed’ stories that make sense. It’s not entitled to want a story to be coherent, because coherence is what makes a story a story, and not just a series of random meaninglessly assembled plot points/fictional anecdotes. 

The problem is, Hollywood writers keep writing themselves into situations where emotional coherence basically requires an explicitly queer dynamic (or at least a strongly subtextual one), and then just being like...but these characters aren’t queer so we can’t do that. Instead, let’s end Steve’s arc by sending him back in time to live a heterosexual life with Peggy, disregarding the HUGELY significant plot points related to Steve/Bucky which grounded multiple entire movies within the MCU (Winter Solider, Civil War). Let’s end Sherlock by inventing a random, long-lost Holmes sister never remotely hinted at or foreshadowed and make that incomprehensible plot point the finale, when the entire series has been grounded in John and Sherlock’s relationship. 

Let’s make it canonically clear Cas’s love for Dean is the one single act of pure free will in a world with a malevolent God trying to manipulate everyone’s lives for his own amusement, and that Cas’s love for Dean is the only thing keeping the primary story-universe of Supernatural intact, because every other version of Sam and Dean in every other universe kill each other as God intended. Let’s make it clear that Cas’s betrayal of heaven due to his love for Dean is literally propping up their entire universe, but then end the story by pretending like it’s not that important after all. Castiel who?

And it’s just like...THAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE! It doesn’t make fucking sense. It’s bad writing. So why would you do it? (I mean, I being a bit facetious here. I know exactly why. Because the precious feelings of homophobes will be hurt, and companies don’t want to lose out on their money) 

It’s not entitled to want a story to make sense. It’s not entitled to want major plot points and character arcs and emotional dynamics to have resolutions that follow from what came before in the story. 

And I’m sorry, but you are a ridiculous person if you watched Dean grieve Castiel’s ostensible deaths in s7 and s13 (both times becoming nearly catatonic, nihilistic, more self-destructive than usual, and borderline suicidal over losing Cas) and try to argue to me that his shrug-it-off attitude towards Cas’s death/loss in the finale makes any goddamn sense at all. 

It is utterly inconsistent with everything that has happened before in Supernatural regarding Dean and Castiel’s relationship. It’s incomprehensibly incoherent and just stupid. (And that is just the absolute tip of the incoherence iceberg because to fully explain why the ending of Supernatural re: Destiel doesn’t make sense we’d have to review over 300 episode’s worth of content, and there isn’t time for that) 

I’m just so sick and so tired of being asked to pretend to be stupid because you know, man, heterosexuality. They’re not gay!!1! 

The exhaustion I feel, as a queer viewer, in fact is not borne out of lack of representation. The representation issue is very much on an upward trajectory and I’m not worried about the future of TV not being queer enough. I’m not. 

The exhaustion and frustration and anger I feel as a queer viewer is borne of having to repeatedly watch stupid endings to good stories because the story can only make sense if you make it queer (you cowards). I’m tired of being asked to develop dumb amnesia disease in order to consume endings to stories that had to blow everything up at the end to (re)enforce a heterosexuality that can only stand on a foundation of utter incoherence and contradiction to monumental things that came before it.

I am JUST SO TIRED of being asked to sacrifice my intelligence, my basic logic and critical thinking skills, and my ability to remember basic narrative beats at the alter of almighty Heterosexuality, supreme ruler of all cultural output and destroyer of good queer things. 

Heterosexuality isn’t owed my stupidity, and I’m not entitled for wanting stories to make sense. YOU are entitled for demanding my stupidity when you wrote that dumb shit and expected me to act like it wasn’t dumb simply because it was heterosexual. 

No, the heterosexuality is exactly the reason it IS dumb. 

[greenflamedwriter]

You know what scares me?

Knowing that a series that ended badly that upset so many people rightfully and through the passage of time, when people forget and move on, and new fans are exposed to it and don't see any problems they didn't have the bias of fandom/writers interviews to warp their way of viewing the show, they get to see it as it truly was.

But at the same time critise fans and think they choose violence.

Imagine someone saying Castiel and Dean were a postive lgbt rep in a series, that cas dying wasn't that bad or even wrong it was really groundbreaking for its time why were people upset?

Why did so many people hate Korra?

Why did anyone hate GOT?

Or the end of teen wolf?

Why are people saying this is queer-bait when it's not?

Unaware of behind the scenes of writers/advertisments/even the broadcasters teasing fans that they would get something.

Truth is, I don't care about that I just want a good story, but the story was terrible so the shipping was the only thing we could geniuanly ask because the plot was going nowhere.

So no.

I won't forget that the Voltron fanbase back from 2016 to 2018 was terrible, that they threatened the VA's bex taylor and Jeremy shada didn't deserve any of the hate, the writers and producers got so much backlash.

During s7 even I thought, wow. They should just cancel Voltron and not give the fanbase anything. Because the fans were so entitled.

So even tho I hate s8 and still won't watch it. I hate Voltron/the crew/the lies the fandom.

It was so bad I've never been in fandom since.

So seeing people on twitter say "Stop saying Voltron queer bait when it didn't-"

it did.

On blogs, youtube and any other advertisments they claimed they were diverse and lgbt, bex was pushing it and Pidge came out as a girl pretending to be a boy in season one. And everyone slapped the trans flag on Pidge.

Because of Steven Universe alongside it, Voltron didn't have to promise anything. But they did. Because I was fucking there.

CN had bubblegum and Marceline kiss, Steven Universe wedding scene happened and even Miraculous ladybug with Nathaniel and Marco being hinted at as a couple.

Truth is, Voltron was going to have a background couple that was a blink and you miss it, since that was acceptable at the time of Blaytz/Galra soldier and that was IT because no one expected Much.

If adventure time/SU wasn't happening no ones expectations would've been that high. Oh and Love,simon came out too.

We had high expectations.

Oh and during pride month, so many shows were doing lgbt content. Voltron released a season 5.

Where Lotur and Allura became a couple.

Dropping a series with a straight couple felt like a big yikes most fans were thinking wtf?

But people are forgetting and painting the fans as the villains when really the crew were just as bad. Take away lgbt and watch the show as it is and see it was so terrible.

Lance was treat terrible, ignored and used as a comic relief that was just pathetic and not funny, given an altean sword then forgotten. Flirted with Allura in a gross way and was then rewarded but was only second best because lotor broke her heart.

Its been three years and I am so done with this but I won't ever forget it.

Also didn't queer bait? They said they were LGBT and confirmed that SHiro was gay and weren't going to bring him back.

Shiro only stayed and that wedding scene only happened because of fans.

Adam was teased at the s7 panel advertising voltron, of Shiro and adams 'fight' confirming he was a fiance.

First episode of s7 they killed adam.

how...how is that good rep?

And the artist posted a screenshot of Shiro's wedding scene one month BEFORE s8 would air. The wedding scene wasn't even meant to be in the end credits that was damage control why did you think people did a campaign of relase the 'real' s8?

Voltron DID promise lgbt, but if they only said "Here's a reboot of robot cats and nothing else!" No one would care because the creators didn't promise it.

[mittensmorgul]

7.13, The Slice Girls.

Yes, yes, bucklemming and their creepy magical babies, but let's put that aside and talk about Sam and Dean and what this episode says about them, instead, for once. Instead of letting the focus on the creepy baby blind us all to what's actually happening in this episode, and what it says about s7 (and s6 too, and honestly a good chunk of Sera Gamble's approach to storytelling in general since she was the architect of these seasons even if she didn't pen this particular episode) overall.

Because whoa... it's kinda... not friendly to Sam...

My tag about how Sam and Dean are entirely different people, with different psychological composition, different mental and emotional processes, came about at the beginning of s11 (when the show was using a two-episode mirroring structure, thematically pairing episodes until the midseason 10, 11, 12 worked together as a triptych, and in a season where the final message the characters had to accept and learn was the understanding of Balance Of Opposites, these differences were on stark display) is "sam sympathizes and dean empathizes." It felt like a baseline difference in how each of them approach the world, and something necessary for US to understand their entire dynamic.

And that's on PERFECT display in this episode.

I've been talking throughout my s7 posts in this series about how Sam can't even see how compromised he is. Despite the fact he spends the entire season actively hallucinating Lucifer and openly admits he has difficulty telling those hallucinations apart from reality, he remains convinced that he's coping with it effectively (via the magic button of sanity he believes the scar on his hand to be), and all he has to do is press that button any time Hallucifer pops up, and everything will be fine again. This is Advanced Level Pretending The Bad Thing Doesn't Exist To Make It Go Away. And he can't understand AT ALL why Dean is intensely wary of him, and is unable to fully trust in Sam's perceptions or decision making abilities throughout most of s7.

(which... I mean turns out to be totally valid, but that's for another post... or at the very least, much later in this one... for now, let's try to stick to 7.13, Mittens, and avoid running off ahead of yourself for once... okay we have that settled, back to the point)

We don't see much of Sam actively Hallucifering in this episode, nor relying on the old Hand Squeeze maneuver, but it's impossible to watch this episode and draw the conclusion that Sam was an Objective Observer of Reality here. He's completely entrenched in his personal bias regarding Dean's actions, behavior, and mindset. And again, it's incredibly frustrating to watch.

Sam is so utterly convinced (because he HAS to be in order for it to continue working for him) of his own self-control, of his own stability, of his own soundness of mind, of his own perceptions of the world to be the One, True, Right, Correct Understanding. If that fails him, then as Dean told him in 7.02 when he first squeezed that wound on his hand to bring him back to reality, then "Stone One" of the foundation of his ability to cope with anything at all will just shatter, and his entire sense of self will slide away with it, and his unstable construct of sanity will collapse.

(which... happens two episodes later, but again, I'm getting ahead of myself... *slaps self and gets back to the point*)

Sam NEEDS to believe in his own "correctness" here. And sadly, part of that sham of belief involves the go-to mindset of s4-- that Dean is somehow "broken," that Dean is the one clearly not coping, or not engaging with reality as Sam interprets it, and that it's Dean's perceptions that are inherently suspect. Because Sam doesn't know a different way of relating to the world. He sympathizes.

I've written a lot about the difference between Sam as Sympathetic and Dean as Empathetic, but a super-quick and messy breakdown of this for the purposes of understanding my whole entire point here:

Sam understands others through an examination of them as filtered through his own personal past experiences and his own personal feelings and beliefs. He assumes that everyone else understands the world in this same way, and when someone's reactions or behavior deviates from his own personal experience, from how HE would behave or react in a given circumstance, he frequently disconnects or misinterprets, or attempts to re-file his observations or reclassify the other person in question into something he CAN relate to and understand.

In other words, Sympathy. (versus Dean’s empathy, where he is more able to set aside his own reactions and see people as they are, themselves. It’s what makes him so good at cold reading strangers, being able to put himself into their shoes rather than needing to imagine their shoes are identical to his own...)

We finally see a small subversion of this in Sam’s interactions with Jack in early s13, wherein he projects his own past experience onto Jack, applying the same things he experienced (or even wished he had actually experienced when he was younger) regarding his own psychic powers that he once believed may have made him "evil." Or at the very least made him "other." And Jack directly calls him out for his treatment in 13.03, which gives Sam pause, forces reflection, and drives him toward actually seeing Jack, rather than just seeing Jack as a projection of his own personal beliefs.

I really hope this makes sense... because 7.13 is demonstrating the root of this lack of understanding as the toxic and dangerous thing it can be, when pushed to this sort of deliberately self-deluding extreme. And of course Sam's ongoing ability to walk and talk and function at all completely relies on his ability to do this during s7 (which... ick is one of the reasons I think a lot of folks really have trouble with the entire narrative of the season, even if they haven't put their finger on why, because this is a super-icky, incredibly uncomfortable thing to watch).

Meanwhile, in addition to everything else going on, from the Leviathans being gooey and creepy and plotting world domination as their endgame goal while largely working to achieve it in plain sight, disguised as humans as they slowly infiltrate... everything and influence everything from politics to real estate to healthcare to the food supply to achieve their ends, to everything Dean relies on for his own personal comfort and stability and connection to the world being gradually stripped away from him (beginning with Cas and running right along through his own literal identity), this episode will steal yet another small physical comfort from him-- human sexual intimacy.

He's already lost Cas, his car (the singular constant in his entire life and the closest thing he's ever had to a home), his actual identity, his innermost thoughts (which went along with the identity when a leviathan took his form), comfort food (the TDK slammer slammed him good), Bobby, and even-- to an extent, due to his ongoing concern for his mental health-- Sam. Dean is... adrift... and now he can't even allow himself the simple pleasure of human touch and physical intimacy (even shrouded in the lie of a false identity... he can't even fake it for self-comforting purposes anymore). And yet, he still knows himself, far better than Sam does. And yet for Sam to maintain his self-control, he needs to believe that it's Dean who is deluding himself and succumbing to the depression Sam is not allowing himself to own.

Dean spends the majority of this episode actually doing his job, making connections, and coming to an understanding of the case through his own personal experience of it. While Sam puts the entirety of his reliance on coming to an understanding of the case on the Academic Validation of an "expert" in ancient Greek. Sam dismisses Dean's direct experience by rejecting it as inherently flawed-- because Sam doesn't necessarily trust his OWN ability to have made these observations himself, yet is 100% dependent on the conclusion that only his own observations are remotely reliable, lest his illusory grip on reality shatter entirely.

Dean, meanwhile, is not similarly compromised in a fundamental way, despite his increased drinking, which Sam uses as yet another excuse to dismiss Dean's assessment of reality. Dean's still insisting that he believes that Bobby's ghost may be haunting them, while Sam explains away each new incident rationally-- or so he believes, as the evidence mounts to a ridiculous extent. It gives Sam the false impression that Dean is emotionally compromised to the point his judgment has become irrational and based on his emotions, rather than his point of view and direct experience that Sam simply can't grok, and therefore needs to dismiss to maintain his belief in his own rationality.

These themes will become the "beating a dead horse dot gif" of s7, continuing even after Sam is healed by Cas in 7.17, proving they're inherent to Sam's fundamental makeup, rather than just a side effect of this "soul damage" he suffered with, or the demon blood he was addicted to in s4.

I'm still attempting to force myself to remain focused on just this episode, though, so I'll conclude with a few direct observations:

DEAN: I'm outside Lydia's. SAM (on phone):  Oh, come on, man. What, are you obsessed or something? DEAN (on phone):  No, I'm telling you. I have been eating at the buffet of strange all afternoon. SAM: Meaning what? DEAN: I'll tell you the second I know. But something ain't right. SAM: Or you're obsessed. DEAN: Shut up. I'm serious.

Despite Sam being told real facts by "experts" that the murdered men had all visited the same club Dean had the night before, he easily dismisses Dean's observations of something weird happening with the woman he'd hooked up with. Sam even tells him he's lucky he "dodged a bullet" since Dean hasn't been killed like the other men he's investigating, and is incapable of even making the connection between what killed those men and the "strange" things Dean's seeing with his own eyes regarding Lydia's rapidly growing daughter, Emma. Sam has to jump through increasingly flaming hoops with a straight face to maintain his belief that Dean is simply obsessed with this woman, that Dean is continuing to slack off, that Dean isn't objectively addressing The Facts™ as Sam understands them.

SAM: So what? I mean, so maybe she has another kid she didn't tell you about. DEAN: Nope, just the one. Emma. But that night, when I was with her, she didn't have any. And I was at her place, man. There was no playpens, no blankets, no rubber ducks. SAM: Right. Like you would have been focused on that kind of thing. DEAN: Hey, dude, that's the first thing you notice. Red flags. Then, all of a sudden, boom – baby. SAM: Yeah, the one you thought talked. DEAN: Oh, it talked. And not baby talk, either. SAM: Now you know so much about child development? DEAN: I know enough to know that they don't say, "Hey, Mom. Who's that guy?" So, cut to... Lydia's handing this kid who's calling her mommy over to these two women, right? But this is not a baby. No, no, this kid's got to be five. And same name – Emma. SAM: You know, George Foreman named all his sons George. DEAN: Are you deliberately messing with me? Dude, I know weird. Okay? There is no non-weird explanation for this. This morning, Emma was a baby. By sunset, she's Hannah Montana. Early years.

And yet Sam is still intent on the "expert" opinion of the professor they asked for help, over and above anything Dean might insist he's personally experiencing. Here, have a very short but complete meta encapsulation of this entire dynamic:

SAM’s phone rings. SAM: It's the Professor. DEAN: Oh. Good. The Professor. Yeah, I'm sure he'll crack this wide open. SAM: Shh!

Dean is sarcastic and dismissive of the professor, the supposed expert who deals in theoreticals and mythology, and not the reality Dean has directly experienced. Meanwhile Sam shushes Dean, dismissing not only his direct experience, but Dean's frustration at Sam’s repeated dismissals.

And here we have it again:

SAM: There's this whole crazy side to Amazon lore that Professor Morrison didn't even mention. DEAN: That's 'cause he doesn't believe in it, which is a real handicap when you're trying to deal with it.

THIS IS SAM'S WHOLE ENTIRE PROBLEM IN A SINGLE EXCHANGE. and then the moment Sam finds something In The Lore™, written down in a book where it's impossible to dismiss, he realizes that Dean hasn't been making shit up or somehow misinterpreting his own lived experience:

SAM: The lore says they reproduced quickly – as in, after mating, they gave birth within 36 hours. The babies grew incredibly fast, then the aging process became normal. Which is one way to make an army, I guess. The mating cycle is every two years. They send out all the women who have reached child-bearing age. DEAN: Which lines up, 'cause this happens every couple of years in different towns, right? SAM: Yeah. And we know for sure that at least some of the vics hooked up with strange women days before being killed Amazon style. DEAN: Hooked up in the same bar I met Lydia, right? SAM: Yeah. DEAN: And then suddenly she's got a little baby in like fruit-fly time. That baby turns into a little girl just as fast. SAM: Wow. So maybe you're – you’re, uh... DEAN: Don't say it.

But rather than questioning EVERYTHING ELSE Dean has been saying over the last few days (or longer, regarding his experiences related to Bobby's ghost), Sam holds on to the rest of his beliefs even more tightly. And he reframes this entire revelation into a different validation of his original thesis-- that Dean's still compromised, Dean's not being objective, Dean letting his emotional damage control him, and it's still A Problem. Because if that's still the case, then Sam is still Maintaining Control Of Himself, and not-compromised himself.

Sam latches on to this and refuses to let go, dismissing Bobby's ghost as a potential explanation for anything, dismissing Dean's evaluation of a document and again running off for a "professional opinion."

DEAN: Maybe it's useful. SAM: It's in a pile of "maybe it's useful." Besides, it's in Greek. Nobody reads Greek. DEAN: Yeah, except Greeks. Oh, and Bobby. SAM: And Professor Morrison. DEAN: Really? SAM: I'm going, Dean. You stay here, keep the door locked. Don't go anywhere. I mean it.

Meanwhile, this approach leaves Sam vulnerable. While at the professor's office, he's attacked by one of the Amazons. While left alone in their motel room, Dean's confronted by his Amazon daughter. He doesn't immediately kill her, though, despite drawing a gun on her before she can attack. And she is talking with him rather than outright attacking anyway, so he lets her talk. To me, this is the key exchange:

DEAN: You look exhausted. EMMA: And starving. It's been a tough sweet 16. So you believe me? EMMA: You'll help me? DEAN: If you really want help.

He is willing to help her escape her life IF SHE REALLY WANTS HELP. We know that when Sam does return, he literally sees a side of Emma that she never reveals to Dean-- the Amazon red eyes-- which convinces Sam that she's a monster incapable of not being monstrous.

A knife drops into EMMA’s hand from her sleeve. DEAN closes the refrigerator and points his gun at EMMA. DEAN: You were asking if I believed you.

I.e., no, Dean didn’t believe her, but he was still willing to hear her out, from an understandable “I’m still gonna point this gun at you while we chat” perspective. When Dean wavers, Emma uses that to question his ability to kill her at all... which is shockingly reminiscent of Dean's inability to kill Jack, even under direct orders from God, in 14.20:

EMMA: It's weirdly hard, isn't it? It is for me. DEAN: Knock it off. EMMA: How could it not be? You're my father. DEAN: Hey! We're not gonna do that. EMMA: But it's true.

So while Dean had wavered in just outright killing Emma, waiting to see if she would succumb to her monstrous nature and try to kill him first, Sam makes the choice to kill her immediately. And in his defense, he even invokes Dean's killing of Amy Pond back in 7.03 as proof that Dean is still compromised:

SAM: What did you say to me... when I was the one who choked? What did you say about Amy? "You kill the monster!" DEAN: I was going to! SAM: Oh, the hell you were! You think I'm an idiot? DEAN: What, you think I am? SAM: Dean, you were gonna let her walk! DEAN: No, I wasn't. That's ridiculous! SAM: Look, man, she was not yours. Not really. DEAN: Actually, she, uh, she was, really. She just also happened to be a crazy man-killing monster. But, uh, hey. SAM: You know what? Bobby was right. Your head's not in it, man. When Cas died, you were wobbly, but now... DEAN: Now what? Oh, what, you're dealing with it so perfect? Yeah, news flash, pal – you're just as screwed up as I am! You're just... bigger. SAM: What?! DEAN: I don't know. SAM: Look... Dean, the thing is, tonight... It almost got you killed. Now, I don't care how you deal. I really, really don't. But just don't – don't get killed.

Because that's what it boils down to, even underneath "stone one" and his Magical Scar Button, the foundation Sam laid that stone on was Dean's assurance, Dean literally guiding him through the mess of hallucination and reality that he'd been unable to separate out for himself, which Dean gets that Sam isn't actually dealing with outside of pushing the button every time Lucifer pops up for him. And without Dean, Sam knows his entire baseline for holding himself together would be gone. And isn't that just terrifying.

Because what Bobby was actually worried about wasn't Dean's head not being in it, but Dean's ability to carry the weight of all of this amid the relentless assault of the universe. From 7.09:

SAM: Yeah. Yeah, I kind of mean more like, uh... more like ever since my head broke... and we lost Cas. I mean, you ever feel like he's -- he's going through the same motions but he's not the same Dean, you know? BOBBY: How could he be? SAM: Right, yeah, but what if -- BOBBY: What if what, Sam? You know, you worry about him. All he does is worry about you. Who's left to live their own life here? The two of you -- aren't you full up just playing Snuffleupagus with the Devil all the live long? SAM: I don't know, Bobby. Seeing Lucifer's fine with me. BOBBY: Come again? SAM: Look, I'm not saying it's fun. I mean, to be honest with you, I-I kind of see it as the best-case scenario. I mean... at least all my crazy's under one umbrella, you know? I kind of know what I'm dealing with. A lot of people got it worse. BOBBY: You always were one deep little son of a bitch.

Bobby never actually said to Sam that Dean’s head wasn't in it. He gave Dean a bit of a talking-to after this, which is distressingly similar to what both Frank and Eliot Ness also tell Dean over the course of the next few episodes, but he never said this to Sam. This is SAM'S interpretation, based on SAM'S assessment of Dean, which informs Bobby's "buck up or else, you're a hunter not a person" speech to Dean from 7.09. Because this was what SAM needed to hear and believe to keep that "umbrella of crazy" firmly in place where he could manage it.

And as the universe continues tearing away at Dean's entire reality, that shield of "professionalism" is just about all he has left. And Sam unintentionally undermines even that at every turn.

What a horrific mess.

[amwritingmeta]

dean said cas to stop being their nurse. what’s wrong in that? this is how people show their love - for protect and support someone you are loved. it’s like dean with his sam - yeah, they are more codependent but the same reason - take care, show love. and dean has nothing like "this is wrong". so why he told that to cas? he doesn’t need his help bc cas blundered? Or he doesn’t care at all? I can’t believe in that tbh

Hello, my dearest darlingest Anon!

I believe that you’re referring to the scene in 12x19 when Dean tells Cas off for acting like their “babysitter”? 

This comment comes off of Cas explaining his reasons for not contacting them when –>

a) he went off piste and decided to bring Kelly to Heaven instead of shooting her with the stolen borrowed Colt

b) his truck broke down and he knew he needed help

And Cas’ foremost reason for not contacting them is that he believes Kelly and the baby - because they’re an extension of Lucifer being free from the cage - are his responsibility. 

A sentiment he’s stated more than once throughout S12. 

A sentiment rooted in his need to feel useful and to have a purpose. 

This need, in turn, rooted in the fact that, at this moment in time, he’s never felt more lost or uncertain of where he truly belongs, feeling like he doesn’t belong anywhere, like he doesn’t even know who he is anymore, loving Dean with all his heart and feeling no hope that the love will ever be returned he’s drifting, without any anchor whatsoever.

Of course, Dean then doesn’t help the situation when he negates Cas’ biggest motivator and dismisses it as though it’s really all in Cas’ own head: protecting them isn’t his job.

Dean is right, of course. It was never his job. He made them his job, he interpreted his orders to protect them in a way that would justify staying close to them and I think that’s underlined in 7x21 when he tries to stop Hester from hurting the brothers by saying “Please, they’re the ones we were put here to protect” and Hester replies simply with a “No, Castiel”. 

And that’s the truth.

Cas has extended his order to bring Dean out of hell and secure Michael’s vessel to protecting the brothers against all odds. Because he’s falling in love with Dean, and he can’t make sense of that emotion.

This has made him dress himself as the hammer and assign all his worth to that role because, again and again, it’s underlined the brothers only call on him for angelic assistance. The problem is, again, miscommunication, because throughout S12 Sam finally, and very vocally and earnestly, contradicts Cas every single time he says that Lucifer is his responsibility. Sam is the one to repeatedly tell Cas he’s wrong in S12, they’re in it together, and he should come to them for help.

But Sam isn’t the person who needs to say it.

Dean agrees, but he agrees in vague ways, like being pissed off - which to our literal angel is the same as negating Sam’s words or being nothing but hyper critical of Cas’ opinion, which for our as-stubborn-as-Dean-Winchester Cas more or less means he’ll just dig his heels down even deeper - or Dean agrees by saying stuff that only underline Cas’ belief that Dean can’t possibly see any real worth in him. That he’s a liability. And expendable. Only useful for the powers he brings to the fight.

This is in 12x23, of course, where they’re together, TFW about to assemble, but instead of there being a sense of team spirit, Cas gets a Dean who barges in, takes over and then asks if he still has the immense power that killed a Prince of Hell.

In 12x19 they finally begin to open up the doors to open communication during the Mixtape Exchange, but that episode is titled The Future and I believe that cornerstone was placed there to show what they’re working towards. That scene is a beautiful study of body language because both of these actors are remarkably attuned to using it as a tool of expression. And that’s more or less the basis for the entire Destiel narrative because it’s so much in the subtext of how these two interact with each other. 

That’s how you build a will-they-won’t-they, btw. No matter the genders involved. There has to be a dance of long looks and glances when the other isn’t looking. There has to be stuff neither one says out loud. There HAS to be miscommunication because complete honesty takes away the obstacles and without obstacles there’s no character growth and there’s absolutely no fucking intrigue to following the progression of the love story.

But now I digress.

So if 12x19 gives a cornerstone to open communication, then why don’t they keep building on that? They are, and they will. Moments of misunderstanding - like this one in 12x23 where Dean is more or less hinging their survival on whether Cas still has the power up juices flowing through him (look at Cas’ face - it hurts him!) - are more or less essential at this juncture, and these misunderstandings stem from the fact that these two men care so much about what the other thinks of them that they can’t stand the thought of disappointing the other, or failing them in any way, neither understanding that how they feel the other can’t disappoint them or fail them no matter what they do is how BOTH OF THEM FEEL ABOUT EACH OTHER! 

(dance my pretties dance!)

There is all the love here, darling Anon, don’t you fret!

The reason Dean tells Cas that he isn’t their babysitter comes from Dean’s conviction that Cas still thinks of himself as their protector foremost, like he stated out loud and unequivocally in 7x21. That statement came as a horrified surprise to Dean back then, because that was Dean’s biggest fear, wasn’t it? That Cas was one of those angels that, when they try to care, it ends up breaking them apart? 

That’s how he views Cas’ choices and sacrifices by the end of S7: they’re breaking Cas apart and Cas made them because he cares.

The problem for Dean is that he’s wanted to humanise Cas - to make him CARE - almost from the moment their story began: giving him his nickname is just the beginning. Why did he do that? 

Because Dean Winchester is a control freak, plain and simple. 

I don’t believe it’s love at first sight with these two. It’s attraction at first sight for Dean (that I do believe), but Dean is out of his depth with Cas and he has an immediate need to bring him down to Earth. To make him feel like an equal. Possibly even an inferior.

Which is why, at least this is my interpretation of it, whenever he gets to put Cas in a tight spot doing human things - such as taking Cas to a den of iniquity - Dean is practically bouncing in his seat from having the upper hand completely and irrevocably.

S12, however, does a lot to tell us that much has changed since S7, including how the brothers view Cas and his choices and his sacrifices. 

In 12x10, after the whole Ishim incident, Sam tells Cas that Cas may have changed, but it’s for the better. And Dean voices support as well, telling Cas he’s not weak, like Ishim proclaimed him to be.

So for Cas, nine episodes later, to come off as though he still considers himself the brothers angelic protector rubs Dean the wrong way. He doesn’t want Cas to feel like he has to protect them because he’s not their defender, he’s not the hammer: he’s their friend and brother in arms and worth a helluva lot more than whatever responsibility he feels like placing on his own two shoulders. 

(Also Dean is completely in love with him and, I’d argue, is subtly terrified that Cas still, after all these years, is so much an angel that whatever that “I love you” in 12x12 was, it sure as hell didn’t mean Cas is in love with him, because Dean’s still nothing more than a mere ward for Cas, someone he feels responsible for, someone he’s formed a bond with, sure, but a bond that never could be romantic based on how they’re from two so completely different worlds - hence the mixtape from Dean, as he tries to over-subtly test the waters)

So, you see? Dean telling Cas off for acting like he protects them by excluding them comes from a place of love.

“You, me, and Sam - we’re just better together.”

Dean tries to convince Cas with this statement, but the Mixtape Exchange is a Destiel scene, and Cas is done now, after having said “I love you” out loud, no matter how vaguely, to pretend like he doesn’t want more. That’s why he gestures between him and Dean when he says “We?” and Dean ruins it when he says “Yes, we. You, me… and Sam.” Unable to give Cas more than his little finger and leaving Cas thinking that, after all is said and done, Dean Winchester does not love him back. And again, neither is stating the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help them Chuck - dancing around each other for this fear of rejection, this fear that stems in the feeling that they’re really not worthy of the other’s love.

There is a complex web of emotion that these men are stuck in, and I, for one, cannot wait to watch it slowly detangle.

And Dean cares. Oh, he cares.

Looooooook at his faaaaaaaace! :)

xx

[awed-frog]

Hi! I've just read your meta masterlist written for someone who wanted to convince their friends that deancas is real. First of all - thank you, what a treat to have it all in one place. The best Matrix red pill of them all. Second of all - "the entire S8, which was basically a demented Jane Eyre AU" - could you elaborate on that? I'm mighty interested.

Hi! Thanks for that - uhm - it’s missing a lot of stuff, though. I’m sure there are better masterposts out there, and I actually looked for them, but all I could find was fanfiction stuff.

As for the Jane Eyre thing - I should say I’m a fan of the Brontë sisters, so it wasn’t supposed to be an insult or anything, but it’s hard to deny that those kind of novels (particularly Wuthering Heights) are over the top and überdramatic and there’s almost an unhealthy focus on love and falling in love and what happens if you lose that and how your life can never be complete without that one person who means everything, and if that person is your foaming-at-the-mouth insane half-brother, so be it. And the thing is, Supernatural seasons often hinge around powerful and borderline soap-operish themes (the whole ‘almost orphans desperately looking for their father while killing things’ was very Dickens, in a way - if Dickens had been high on opium and cocaine and stuff, that is), but S8 really went above and beyond. I mean, even without the big love story for the fucking ages supporting the entire narrative arc, it was full of OMG and oh no! moments - 

Sam is all alone in the world and may have found love but oh no! his brother’s back from the dead and super pissed and oh no! the woman he probably loves is actually not a widow and OMG what next?

Hunter Dean found himself a new best friend but oh no! he’s a vampire drawn to human blood but OMG he’s promised to abstain forever and fight his own instincts every day for eternity but oh no! what happens if he can’t?

There is a way to banish all demons from the Earth but oh no! it’s a magic spell that requires a human sacrifice and oh no! Sam actually wants to do that and is it guilt or depression or martyrdom or OMG is he simply that heroic??!?

- so much Gothic extravaganza, the list could go on and on. But, as I said, at the heart of it all are Dean and Cas, and what’s going on with them is so sappy and romantic even Charlotte Brontê would have edited some stuff out.

Like, I don’t even know where to start. 

At the beginning of the season, Dean is precipitated in a world of darkness and monsters. He fights his way out for an entire year, and during that time he prays to Cas every night - Dean, who normally doesn’t pray at all. We know he’s tortured and desperate, because part of him believes Cas is dead (because Cas always comes when Dean calls, right?) and all of him knows it’s his own fault, because he forced Cas to fight even if Cas wasn’t in his right mind and Jesus, ALL the regrets and ALL the guilt. Then he finally finds Cas, who first refuses his manly and chaste affection and then pushes Dean to safety and chooses to die in that hellhole. This is so incredibly traumatic that Dean erases that entire memory as he makes his way into the real world (and, remember, we’re talking about Dean ‘I remember what was done to me in Hell’ Winchester here - I guess losing Cas was more painful than that?), which is just as lonely and brutal and hostile as the one he left behind (cue all the drama about Sam and Benny and Crowley killing everyone he can get his hands on). As he fights on, Dean starts to see Cas’ ghost everywhere, which is, like, standard behaviour for a Romantic hero or heroine but also legit what happens to you when your brain suffers such a heavy loss it can’t cope (if you’re not reading this alone at night, I recommend you check out this article about Japanese cab drivers picking up ghost passengers after the tsunami, and this BBC radio program explaining why it happens). This is obviously distressing for Dean, but then, as he’s fast approaching his breaking point, Cas actually shows up in person - he cannot explain how he found Dean, since Dean still has the anti-angel tattoo on his ribs, but wait - we know Cas can sense longing, right? so that’s why and if that isn’t the most tragic, romantic thing you’ve ever heard, get out. But there’s worse to come. Before that, though, we’re treated to a brief comedic interlude featuring the sappiest love trope ever - ‘all grown up’ - as Cas retires to the bathroom (and why) to clean up and reappears all handsome and clean-shaven, causing Dean an erection and much embarrassment.

(I still can’t believe that is a thing that actually happened, by the way.) 

Next, of course, there’s the whole ‘Cas has been trained and programmed to kill Dean against his will and beats him up in a darkened crypt and nothing can happen now everyone is doomed doomed doomed but wait I NEED YOU and BAM, suddenly the mind control is gone and even someone with the whole of Heaven’s power behind her can’t come between Cas and Dean and Cas will never hurt Dean and what the fuck is even happening?’ episode, which, again, how was that an actual thing? Sometimes I think we were all high during that season and we had a collective hallucination or something. And next there is all the ‘You didn’t trust me? You didn’t trust me, I almost died to get you out, I would have died, I did not leave you’ drama as Dean finally remembers what happened (he doesn’t, by the way: Cas heals his brain, and those memories come back), and meanwhile in the background there’s more over the top and dramatic stuff going down - Sam being weird and volunteering to die and Benny also volunteering to die and Dean can’t save anyone and can’t do anything and now BAM, turns out Cas is also dying, or leaving forever, anyway, and there was so much unsaid stuff between them I remember fainting and melting into my couch during various episodes and thank God for smelling salts. And after all this torture and torment and ALL the love and ALL the pain, the very last episode was the worst of the worst - Dean must basically say goodbye to the only people he cares about and would do anything to spare, because both of them are dying, and it’s a sort of Sophie’s choice too because Cas is gone and Dean doesn’t have time to focus on that because SAMMY and at the end we’re left with him half supporting his brother’s weight as they look up at a sky full of falling angels (and is Cas one of them or did they kill him already and aaaaargh).

So, look - I’m even leaving out stuff, and it’s still almost unbearably sugary and tragic - it’s not like they haven’t had other weird moments between them, but this season alone is more romantic than, say, the entirety of Jane the Virgin, who’s supposed to be about romance, or even Grey’s fucking Anatomy, where, sure, you get those random episodes where a train explodes and people are stuck all over the city and you can’t save all of them and surprise! you’re probably dying yourself BUT you also get some time to breathe in between and episodes where almost no one’s fighting and people are having sex and how come they never sleep, seriously? And what I just can’t believe is that we’re the only ones to have both sides here - Dean still doesn’t know about the thousand Deans Cas was forced to kill, or about those convoluted reasons Metatron had for cutting out Cas’ Grace, specifically, and Cas doesn’t understand how close Dean came to tell him those three stupid words which would have solved and changed everything, and he doesn’t get why Dean was hurt by his choice to remain in Purgatory, and how much, and he must ignore or disregard, by now, those random spikes in Dean’s arousals, because he assumes that’s what humans do or whatever and he probably never realized he should have hugged Dean back that time on the river bank, and what it meant to Dean that he didn’t. See? Tragedy and misunderstanding and Dean being an actual Gothic heroine and Cas being all Rochester-y about things (early Rochester, I mean, the one who was determined to be a martyr and could not believe someone as smart as Jane would ever find his old ass interesting in any way).

I know we always say it, but that’s honestly how I feel all the time - I don’t know what the hell they’re thinking here, because you cannot write a story like this, you cannot insert all these tropes and bend and twist and narrative so stuff will only work with the foundation of a Great Love, and not see it. You physically cannot, especially if you’re a trained screenwriter and this is literally your job. So they do see it, and what? I don’t mind the UST and the pain and the slow-burn (much), but I still wish they would make it clear that this is indeed where they’re going, because they can’t keep writing this shit and pretending they aren’t. It’s - if someone had written S8 as a Destiel - canon divergent after S7 fic on AO3, I’m not sure I would have read it. So gay that it’s almost OOC, I would have thought, and there’s not even the comfort of some smut - it’s all angst, all the way, and come on - even this show is not that gay.

Except it is, isn’t it?

Lucky us.

[koriginaladdict]

Do you think Dean truly loves Sam or is he in the same situation as with Cas (all familial love, not destiel of wincest)

sorry i didn’t understand, the question is does dean love sam and cas equally or does dean love sam romantically? what i think is that no matter what, sam will always be dean’s priority, not even their own parents come before, it’s always gonna be sam above the entire world, even above sam himself, dean just can’t let him go, even if the means to do so will hurt sam (s9) he’ll do it anyway because he loves sam too much and he’d rather him being alive and hating him than dead, and also it’s for himself as sam perfectly said, dean can’t be in a world where sam isn’t there, i don’t think that it’s romantic at all, it’s just that when they were young dean grew up that way ever since he held sammy in his arms when their mom died, he practically raised him and was always taught that sam comes first, so it stayed, i just see it as a really really close unique bond they have

as for cas and dean, it’s so much more complicated as the dynamic changes each season, depending on the writers and their biases, i got carried away so it’s a bit long (by a bit i mean really long)

it’s not the same situation with cas, both cases are completely different in my opinion, the first time dean knew about cas his reaction was “so you’re angel you have powers do all my work” he didn’t see him as a person, just something powerful that should be used at its fullest to save the world, and i think that mentality stayed with him a very very long time, then he got to see that cas “isn’t just a hammer” but it didn’t change much, every time dean has a scene with cas it’s to ask for his help, then in 4x22 he basically said “why do you care about your life? sam sam sam sam is above everything else to go kill yourself for us you spineless souless sob”, on s5 dean didn’t have much regard to cas as a person, like forcing him to be in that whorehouse, or when he was mocking him, or how he shrugged off “5 minutes and we already lost the angel up our sleeve” but dean had some decency too, like how he wanted gabe to give cas back, or how he sent cas some cash when he was in a hospital, it wasn’t all bad, there was a certain balance, cas got to call dean out sometimes

going back to how dean felt about him, from his actions they were both having the same goal, working together to stop the apocalypse, they had some good friendship moments but it was always “cas’s life is a price worth to pay, but my and my brother’s lives aren’t” mentality, even at the end sam chose to give his life, but we’re talking dean, but there was a tiny litte respect

s6 dean became an entirely different person, he wasn’t reasonable, completely selfish, he heard cas say over and over again “raphael will destroy the world i’m in the middle of a civil war” and all dean hears is “bla bla bla i can’t be here to do your bidding bla bla bla” and it was so unfuriating, as a dean fan who saw what used to be a selfless hero not caring at all about the world,only himself and his brother, and as a person who likes cas, who didn’t mind dc and saw how unfair he was being to him, whatever respect dean had for cas was gone, whatever self respect cas had was gone too and we were stuck in a mess when dean became the commander, and as much as it really hurt cas “your problems always come first” he still obeys him anyway

at that point dean saw him as nothing more than a tool, a tool that should only listen to him, that he gets to mock and yell at as he pleases without the narrative ever showing how wrong it is, even turning it into a joke (that most people including “cas stans” do like “baby in a trench coat”) he says “you’re my friend you’re family” but those words were always to manipulate cas into listening to him, in dean’s mind cas being “family” is only when it’s convinient for him, to listen to him and help him, die for him, giving that support back and having at least some respect and understading for cas wasn’t part of it, dean wasn’t cas’s family but cas was his, it was a one way street even cas said it “you say you’re my friend and i’m your friend too, i always come when you call, do what you as, shouldn’t that trust go both ways? i earned that dean?” and dean was like no, but he’ll use the same thing to try manipulate godstiel ? nah there was so much bias and narrative on dean’s side when he was the one in the wrong it was sickening

s7 that only got worse, it’s one thing to mistreat someone in their right mind it’s another to lie to an amnesiac person about their own identity and actions and guilt trip them, yeah dean maybe cas was a “bad guy to you” but that’s just YOUR POV not what happened, and cas took it all, when it should’ve been “i shouldn’t have broken sam’s wall, i shouldn’t have treated you worse than sh*** for the whole year, and you did save the world i was wrong” it was “dean is the victim and cas is just the stupid arrogant angel who unleashed some monsters for fun, look at how horrible he is” and then when he gives dean what he wants what does he do? of course trade him to a demon then gtfo, and when he sees him again and he’s crazy, he yells at him throws stuff when cas was basically in a childlike state and it was all turned into a joke, do you imagine if that was sam instead of cas, no one would stand for that but what can i say cas has shippers pretending to be his “stans” so they chose to defend dean over his safety

s8 was like s6 but instead of “cas you’re so horrible for saving the world how dare you” he’s like” cas you’ve been tortured and brainwashed it was all your fault how dare you i don’t need you …*does actually need him* hey cas i’m praying to you come here and save my baby bro i was just kidding” it might have seemed that dean was “making progress” and cared about cas in purgatory but to what end? he thought cas slipped up and all he did was tell everyone he’s dead, ruining his chances to be saved so that dean can feel better about himself, that’s the problem he was too self centered, even his help for cas was so that he won’t feel guilty for leaving him, and instead of “cas is off what’s happening to him we should help him” it’s “cas is off something bad is probably happening to him, so we ward ourselves against him and only call him when he need to use him”

s9, when your very human angel friend who has nothing, no cash no id, is lost what’s the logic thing to do ? look for him or sleep on your warm bed and leave him to starve and freeze until a fucking case happens to be where he is?  i mean i know i got carried away from your question but instead of taking quotes and narrative i take dean’s actions to determine how he felt about cas because that’s what really matters, and then when he found him but he was dead he was upset a little, yeah he got used to the angel and all, and he’ll have no one to help his ass but it wasn’t that sad, we saw dean’s reaction to losing his loved ones billion times but it wasn’t 0.01% of it with cas, of course he gets brought back and all,and gadreel tells him to kick him out but did he tell him to not give him anything? did he forbid him from renting him some cash, fake id fake credit card? no he did that was all on dean being uncaring, and to top it off when cas succeeds in something he’s always there to mock him and bring him down, like when he got his job at gas n’sip and he was like “you were a great angel who fought wars now look at you” even your enemy wouldn’t be so bad to you, and when he has the angel army dean’s first instinct is to humiliate cas instead of support him, or just stfu and it says a lot about how he feels about him, he’s his punching bag, he uses him when needs to, throws him away when he doesn’t , and mock him in the mean time and ruin his life, and he doesn’t care at all or try to understand cas as a person because he’s so above that

s10 well no one cared about cas dying, except hannah, but there was less low blows than in previous seasons, either because cas didn’t have much going on or because dean wasn’t in a right place

s11 was so contradictory in itself, dean before 11x10 “cas is fine he’s always fine” dean”s first words to cas after he almost killed him was to ask for more help from him,  usual dean, then after that dean is suddenly “cas we need to save cas it’s not an IT it’s cas” and i feel like it was done just to make the whole situation about dean’s manpain, that’s spn’s specialty after all, but well it was kinda out of nowhere and complete 180° shift in his behavior, i don’t even know how to explain it if i just look at his character because the reasons behind it are so transparent and are more to influence the audience than actually tell a story, but i guess we could say dean finally started to care a little about cas, thus the speech in the finale (that was basically thanks for sacrificing yourself for us, which was new and i was expecting a ‘how dare you he almost killed sammy you always screw up”) i guess the writers wanted some character development for dean which is good (even if i would’ve prefered cas don’t throw away your life like that)

and this season, it’s like dean finally came to terms with stuff, sam will always be his brother no matter what, and while there were still some pettiness and mocking cas and that whole “i’ll give cas the silent treatment because he saved my mom, and had consequences, not that i did the same every season or anything” i just hate when dean closes his mind like that and wants people to beg him to understand even if it’s really isn’t that complicated but he has to so that all the attention goes to him, his POV instead of the situation itself, it’s not the first time doing that, it was hypocritical to make dean be like “why do you let him talk to you like that?” like “why do YOU always talk to him like that”, you know but idk cas’s feelings are the ones focused on, i wish we got a little something from both brothers to cas, a speech like his when they also own up to all they put him through and apologize for it because they never did, only cas does

but dean’s feelings right now? he does care about cas, he sees him as his friend, he seems to make some progress by helping cas and not leaving him behind when he was dying, which about damn time bro took you 9 years to act like a decent person, but it’ll never come close to sam, no one will not even himself, but i do think he even has a closer bond with cas, more caring for him than his mother, and i think it’s kinda logical since she’s at this point just the one who gave birth to him, cas was there for him in ways she never was or could, but basically dean is experiencing some character development maturity and it’s letting him be more of himself

[mittensmorgul]

Between the promo and the interview with Dabb. It's important to see the love professed between persons they are not blood family but they are Family. I will only say that love is different but not least. I love that Dean says "Cas is my best friend" because a friend can be a brother, confidant, ally, encompasses a lot of things. And I Iike Dabb to say "Everybody looking for their place" Because they are all important. Castiel is one of a kind and he has to find his own place in the universe.

Yeah.

(And just for the record, Mr. Mittens is my best friend.)

(we’ve been married for almost 20 years)

(but he’s definitely my best friend)

And really, the whole “Everybody looking for their place” thing is something we’ve been flailing over FOR YEARS. ACTUAL MULTIPLE YEARS.

*note to say that I would provide ALL the quotes, but the superwiki’s been down all day, so this is literally entirely off the top of my head. All receipts can be found buried in my blog, but for the purposes of answering this in a timely fashion, *boom* you get the stuff I can remember without looking it up… :D*

*second note to say I’m putting this under a cut because damn… I wrote over 3k on the subject and whoa it’s long*

Let’s start with Dean (because really this show, for me, starts and ends with Dean)

Dean, in 10.16, with his whole confessional scene. Thinking about the things… people he wants to experience differently. Maybe even for the first time.

But this isn’t even really a new notion for Dean. At the beginning of the series we were first introduced to this cocky dude who had this whole loner/rebel thing going on… but that image got turned on its head by the end of the second episode (the third episode drowned that perception of Dean in a lake). He spent most of s2 feeling like he wasn’t even supposed to be ALIVE, let alone deserve anything more than he already had.

By s3, he’d sold his soul for Sam’s, and he was content with the trade… until near the end of the season when his time was running out and he was forced to confront his fate… (I don’t deserve it! FINALLY! at the end of 3.10 confronting the dream-demon-dean)

Resurrected in 4.01, Cas points out that Dean doesn’t believe he deserved to be saved… and he’s forced to confront this fate apparently laid on him by God– who he didn’t even believe existed, and certainly didn’t care about. Heaven was conspiring against Dean to make him into their pawn, all the while he fought against that fate. At that point in the story, back during the Apocalypse, he didn’t really get much time to stop and think about what “place” he’d choose for himself, he just knew he wasn’t gonna let destiny choose for him. Back then, he was fighting for the right to choose at all.

Apocalypse dusted, he trudged off to look for a white picket fence and a little peace and quiet. As far as he knew, the world wasn’t trying to end anymore, and without any sort of direction for himself, for the first time in his life he was sort of free to explore something different for himself. For reasons I’ve talked about plenty of times before, it didn’t work out for him. He tried to find a balance there, but it was too much, and suddenly he was adrift again.

He’d lost his faith again. Cas was gone, Sam was broken, and the world was definitely falling apart again. S7 stripped away everything that Dean had ever known. Forget about having choices, by the end of the season he was even running out of last-ditch refuges. Then he and Cas ended up in the last-ditch refuge to beat all other last-ditch refuges: Purgatory.

Coming back from Purgatory seemed to give Dean a new lease on life. ESPECIALLY after Cas came back… at least for a little while. Even after Cas came back to him, he still ditched him again…

(yes it was because he was being controlled by Naomi, no neither dean nor cas knew that at the time, yes it left everyone feeling terrible)

Then they discovered the Bunker. Things really began to change for him. He had a place that he felt was actually THEIRS. A solid, steady home base that grounded him in the world like nothing had since he’d been 4 years old and had a family home. It was his heritage, a part of his personal history that had been stolen from him long before he was even born. And that was HUGE for Dean.

The thing he was best at, the thing he took most pride in– his abilities as a hunter– was validated by this creepy old vault in a hillside.

Suddenly he had a home, a sense of legitimacy, a sense that he wasn’t some outcast on the fringes of society. Granted, living in a secret underground bunker still technically puts one on the fringes of society, but more in a Batman sort of way instead of in a Spiders Georg sort of way…

Right from the start, Dean had this sense of BELONGING there. He felt at home. He LIKES living there. He has privacy and comfort and his own room and a cozy robe and slippers, not to mention all the tools and resources he could ever hope to have to do the job he’s always loved (well, for the most part he’s loved it…).

But there’s always been that responsibility his father instilled in him from the moment he told him to carry Sam outside as fast as he can. His one real job, even above the hunting, has been to watch out for Sam. He still feels responsible for Sam, even though they’re both in their 30′s (and Dean’s pushing 40 now…). Is that REALLY his primary responsibility in life? I mean, of course he loves his brother, but should he forever put Sam’s needs and wishes BEFORE his own? Or, conversely, override Sam’s own wishes in service to that old “watch out for Sammy, you have to save him” mantra that John burdened him with in 2.01? That’s something he’s beginning to learn, beginning back in s11, and continuing into s12.

I think Dean realizes that hunting is where he belongs. Going back to 11.04, Sam asking him if he ever thought about settling down with someone in the life. Like, finding a romantic partner to share the life with. I.e., hunting with someone other than Sam. Implying that SAM had thought about this, too, for himself.

Conveniently, Sam meets a really lovely female hunter who he has a lot of instant chemistry with just seven episodes later (hello, Eileen!). But at the time in 11.04, Dean denies having considered it a real possibility for him. Despite having said something along those exact same lines in 10.16.

How much have I written about 11.11 and Dean’s heart-to-heart with Mildred about sunsets, and pining for someone, and… right. Okay. (there’s nearly 200 posts in that episode tag fyi. I’m not even gonna CONSIDER diving in there to pull references, or I’ll be there all night :P).

In 11.17 he gets the lesson hammered home that he can’t just throw away his own life in exchange for Sam’s. For the first time in his life, he’s confronted with the absolute fact that Sam’s life is not cosmically more important than his own. He doesn’t want Sam to suffer or die or to have to carry undue burdens on his soul (like the Mark of Cain… >.>), but that’s a reasonable thing to feel. It’s NOT reasonable to try to spend the rest of his life standing as that human shield between Sam and the rest of the world either, though, and he’s finally starting to understand that.

Then in 11.19 Dean makes a real breakthrough and FINALLY admits out loud and in front of Sam that he’s curious about what it’s like settling down with another hunter. He asks this of two men who are married to each other. Again, in front of Sam.

The s11 finale was ALL ABOUT CHUCK AND AMARA FINDING THEIR PLACE in a strange way. Not Chuck hiding out on Earth pretending to be something he’s not (a Dean mirror…), not Amara locked away somewhere like a prisoner, nor destroying all of creation in retaliation. It was all about balance, brought about by Dean Winchester.

So, that leaves us in Dean’s current situation. Mary’s suddenly alive again after all these years, Sam’s been hurt and taken by ??? and Cas was true to his word and stuck around.

Not only that, but Cas seems just as fierce and determined as Dean to get Sam back. Aah, brotherly feelings! Because THAT’S how Cas has learned (from Dean) that you take care of your brother. And really, I think that’s how Cas does see Sam. As a brother. It’s been a long time since he’s referred to Sam as the Boy with the Demon Blood, or “an abomination.” And Cas’s journey since borrowing Jimmy’s body and popping into that barn to say hi to Dean has also been about his friendship (and kinship) with Sam.

(I mean, just look at 9.11, THEY BOND OVER HOW SIMILAR THEY ARE! THEY TALK ABOUT HOW BOTH ANGELS AND WINCHESTERS CAN GROW AND CHANGE!)

I know this has largely been about Dean to this point, but when I started writing, I had no idea how much I really had to say on the subject. I was going to do a similar “this is your life” sort of segment for Sam, but It’s almost impossible to talk about Dean without pulling in relevant tidbits about Sam. So I’m gonna spend a (hopefully!) shorter amount of time talking about Sam here, specifically.

When Sam first met Cas, he was in awe of angels. Unlike Dean, he’d always had faith in a higher power. (He’d also always had Dean as a human shield against some of the worst of their young lives, which probably contributed to his ability to maintain that faith in what otherwise could’ve been a completely faith-destroying life… I mean, see Dean himself for the obvious compare/contrast here).

Sam had always felt “other.” The freak. Not even really all human. Living on the fringes of society yet wanting desperately to fit in and just be normal. He hated his life, hated hunting, hated not being normal. And then his powers kicked online and amped that feeling up to 11.

Poor Sam has spent so much of the series being the object of the supernatural that the only times he ever even tried to run away from the life he just got pulled right back in. He tried to run once during the Apocalypse, but that didn’t even last more than a few days before he was forced back in (in 5.03/5.04). The closest he got to escaping into normalcy was during early s8 while Dean was in Purgatory.

Nothing says family like the whole family being dead.

He drifted around the country aimlessly until he hit a dog.

He seemed to settle in for a brief time, but then suddenly Dean was back, reminding him that he had a duty to protect Kevin, and he’d failed. He’d never told Amelia ANYTHING about his life before he’d met her. Well, nothing REAL, anyway. Not the truth. Nothing about hunting or monsters or anything. So when his history finally caught up with him, his choice was an either/or. He couldn’t have both (not even like Dean had tried to do with Lisa, since she did know the truth about him. Sam wouldn’t burden Amelia with it, despite having demanded as his dying wish that Dean burden Lisa with it all…)

So Sam was adrift again, even though he had Dean by his side. Even though he had the bunker as a home base. It WASN’T a proper home by his standards. It wasn’t enough.

Enter the trials, enter Gadreel, enter the fight against the Mark, enter the Darkness… and finally Enter God.

(also enter Dean spending a month or so pining away and driving himself bonkers trying to save Cas from Lucifer)

And then… God couldn’t just snap his fingers and make this better. In fact, God was kind of a jerk. Or, at least, God was really freaking limited in his own ability to change. That’s one of the drawbacks of being absolute.

Free will is not included in the kit.

But Sam? Sam’s got it. And he chooses to exercise it LIKE A BOSS. SAM FUCKING WINCHESTER. CAN I GET AN AMEN!

Sam’s chosen all through s12 to stand up and defend what he believes in. Even in 12.01/12.02 when he felt like he had really nothing left to lose (with Dean gone, Cas banished, the Darkness vanquished), he still didn’t give in to his captors. He kept fighting for himself.

Because he does see the bunker as his home now. He’s also got this weird second chance to get to know his mother in a blank slate sort of way. He’s accepted her terms for how their relationship will proceed, because getting to know her AT ALL had never even been a possibility for him.

And we know he’s spent some time thinking about his future (his little retirement brochure and his box of memories). He’s spent time wondering what it might be like settling down with a hunter. He’s begun archiving the MoL records to make them accessible. He’s got a way to keep one foot in hunting and still have a relatively settled life. And he finally got Lucifer locked back up in the cage. He’s got hope for the future.

(well, he did until they got arrested by the secret service and tossed into some sort of black site)

Now on to Cas.

Castiel, Angel of the Lord. Arguably the most fascinating character progression in the history of television. He began as a completely alien being who was just rebellious enough and empathetic enough and curious enough to be swayed by humanity. Yes, he had a history of defying orders going back millennia, but he’s also been labeled as having “too much heart.” What a wonderful problem for an angel to have.

From wrathful soldier of heaven to homeless human struggling to survive, he’s experienced so much. And he’s been open to every last experience. He’s let humanity touch him and change him, all the while fighting to do the right thing for Heaven and Earth. He’s made some catastrophic mistakes along the way, and the weight of that guilt has affected him even more.

I saw a post earlier today about the line from the See Evil promo, where Dean says Cas is his best friend. Below that is an image of the “Friends to Lovers” tag from AO3. Because yeah, I mean, isn’t that the next logical step here? Their entire story has been a Strangers to Associates to Enemies to Associates to Friends to Associates to Enemies to Associates to Friends to whateverthefuck they were in Purgatory to Friends to Close Really Close Friends to Awkwardly Asking Out And Getting Rejected But Staying Heartbroken Friends to Bitter Exes to Friends to Brothers to “everyone you love will be long dead except for me” to ~Brothers~ to Old Married People Having A Spat Over How Much Cas Travels For Work With Dean’s Ex.

It’s ridiculous.

*glances up at this ridiculous post trying to determine if I’ve addressed your question even a little bit and realizes this is gonna have to go under a cut. WTF, self?*

Cas’s ENTIRE HISTORY ON THE SERIES, ALL OF IT, HAS BEEN A JOURNEY OF “FINDING HIS PLACE.”

I just watched 4.20 yesterday. That’s where I am in my current rewatch. He’s been struggling with what’s right, with what he should do, with where he should entrust his loyalty. Heaven’s orders don’t feel right. There’s something fishy going on up there, and his loyalty was wavering. After getting pulled back to Boot Camp for reprogramming, he tells Dean that he serves Heaven, not humanity, and CERTAINLY not Dean…

Well, it only takes him two more episodes to turn that around and tear up the script. For Dean.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN CAS’S JOURNEY.

As much as Sam has been manipulated by the universe, Cas has too. (remember what I said about Sam and Cas in 9.11? Yeah, that.)

Well as much as Sam and Cas have in common, the relationship between Cas and Dean has NEVER looked like that. There’s always been a distinct difference between how Cas and Sam relate to one another, and how Cas and Dean relate to one another.

But Dean being Dean, who doesn’t feel like he deserved to be saved, doesn’t have any clue what to do with an Angel of the Lord who put his faith in Dean. And Cas doesn’t have any clue what to do with this man who has called him brother and best friend, both of which taste a little bit like a lie, or at least not entirely like the truth.

(see previous comment about Old Married Couple, yet with neither of them realizing it)

I realized a few minutes ago that I’ve already written something about Cas’s entire journey (as it stood over the summer hiatus after s11), and how he’s always been headed toward this huge choice: Do you want to live as an angel, or as a man? I’d go digging for it, but *scrolls up through this entirely too long already post* I think I’ve spent enough time on this.

Cas has struggled with these HUGE questions. He’s tried to do what was right. He’s tried to reconcile his duty to heaven with the original mission God set for the angels to protect humanity. He’s met God himself and seen the entire story of creation resolve itself. And now? Now where does he belong? His story’s been paralleled to Mary’s this season. Mary who feels out of place and time and disconnected from the world, yet is tied to it by blood and family and humanity. Cas feels out of place because of WHAT he is, because he’s not human or blood (even if he is family… or whatever he reads into Dean’s assertions that he has a place with them, in their home, with the Winchesters).

It’s all about family, what makes family, and finding out how they all fit into each others’ lives. If given the choice, what would each of them decide to do?

TL/DR? Basically my point is this is nothing new. This has always been the story, no matter what the “bigger problems” they’ve faced over the years have been. It’s just become a much more tangible and dynamic part of the story in the last season or so. Meaning it’s become more important, if anything. For Dean, for Sam, and for Cas.

Take any of those three out of the story, and the whole structure collapses. They’re all equally important here. I don’t think anyone who says different has a leg to stand on. I don’t know what the fuck show they’re watching, but it’s definitely not Supernatural.

Not sure if I even really addressed the original message here, but I’ve been typing this for a couple of hours now, so I guess I’ve officially typed myself out. :P