#and one of the characters in it is called Tiberius - but he isn't a good guy

[bardicious]

I'm writing out my superhero comic idea and it's history, and it's like embarrassingly obvious what my favorite shows are. lmao.

[elcctra]

You mentioned you finished domina season 2, so I was wondering what your opinion was on Augustus and Livia and who’s characterization did you like the best out of everyone?

ok domina season two thoughts and spoilers (i mean... it's all in the history books) under the cut

ok really, really disliked augustus this season. when he wasn't being boring he was just stupid annoying. one of my problems with season one is that he depended a little too much on livia and agrippa and should've been a little more of a political player himself, and that didn't get any better this season. i really only liked his relationship with octavia, they had some really touching moments.

livia was fine, i know some people dislike her characterization in the show but i think it's fun, i love how matter-of-fact she is, i absolutely died when she told tiberius and drusus that she thought they were boring as children and she liked parties and politics and scheming too much to pay attention to them sdfghjhgfdfgh i think it's refreshing that she's not a Perfect Girlboss but a deeply flawed human who screws a lot of people over - but who is really, really good at her job. her obsession with bringing back the republic has always felt a little ridiculous to me, but i like that in the end tiberius and drusus called her out about it and laid out something i always suspected: she doesn't actually give a fuck, or at least isn't willing to sacrifice her own power to get it. at this point it's more of a crutch to justify her scheming than any real goal coming deep devotion to her father or to the republic. i liked that.

as for best characterization, there's no way i can say anyone but antonia and antonina. they stole the show. antonina especially was pitch perfect: intelligent and strong willed, but knowing when to back off and accept things. really close to how i imagine her historical counterpart was. her relationship with drusus was peeeerfect and her interactions with livia, tiberius and vipsania made them all feel like a real family (i can totally see this version of antonia acting like the family matriarch to tiberius' patriarch during his reign). there were times, especially in episode 7, when i felt like livia's plot was the b-plot and the real protagonist was antonina trying to make sure all would work - and i was fine with it. she carried the narrative effortlessly.

julia, drusus and iullus were all fine, i liked that they all had clear character arcs, which feels impressive when you consider how big the cast is. i know some people didn't like vipsania's characterization but i LOVED her, she was a delight. weird girls forever. and i loved the julia/iullus/antonia little trio!

my favorite character of the season, though, was tiberius. i liked the old actor but the new one is sooo good. the "bad tiberius" thing is… hmmm…. a choice. i think they did a good enough job in showing WHY tiberius would do bad things, there was no need to give him an evil alter ego lol but i liked the rest of it enough to politely ignore that in favor of everything else. he's the only person in the show who is as intelligent as livia, but isn't interested in politics in the least. he's very, very devoted to drusus (and drusus to him - their scenes made me insane), but fails in his "only ambition", keeping him safe. he loves vipsania and is loved by her, but lives in the shadow of livia's emotional neglect and manipulation and the mix of adoration and fear both he and, to a lesser extent, drusus, feel for her. in the end he betrays both vipsania and drusus for livia but in doing so finally breaks free from livia and starts seeing her as enemy. it was just too delicious, i ate it up. but let me say that i won't be too sad on his behalf if we don't get a third season because i will be glad to see "bad tiberius" go dfghgfdfgh

overall, yeah. some good, some bad. some things that were ridiculous and fun, others that were ridiculous and bad bad bad. the kids were a delight and it was a good thing we had them because the livia/augustus/agrippa trio that drove the narrative in season one was... just... not it. overall i'm glad we got this season and that we had these portraits, especially for people who don't always get the spotlight like antonia the elder or iullus. but if we don't get a third season i'm cool.

[essayofthoughts]

In contrast, how about Tiberius’s view on leading and royalty? He seems to highly value status and titles, in a weirdly similar way to Percy. But conversely, Tiberius seems to take his status as implicit power to do things (such as when he wrote his father asking for an army) and seems unaware of the prejudices he seems to hold, which we see often and Matt revealed the extent of later with the power structure in Draconia when VM were searching for Vorugal. How do his views and prejudice impact his relationship and dynamic in the group in your mind?

(Part 2)

The thing is I don't think Tiberius is aware of his prejudice at all. He has a WIS stat of four, people. He knows things, but he doesn't really... put them together very well - or at all, sometimes. I do think he's genuinely ignorant of his prejudices, such as with regards to Ravenites, and simply considers them... normal.

And... it's also not unlikely, given how stratified the pre-Vorugal Draconian society was (ha, Draconian) that... he was taught that it was all for sensical reasons in much the same way that racism and chattel slavery were justified throughout Europe and America.

Ravenites lack tails and so they are farther from Bahamut; it is the duty of true dragonborn to guide them towards Bahamut's teachings. Ravenites have a natural physical strength; they are suited to the ground and physical labour and not to the more academic learning open to true dragonborn. Ravenites are emotional and irrational; true dragonborn must show the enlightenment they've been gifted by Bahamut and not respond to their anger..

All of these have obvious counterpoints - are those tails removed or is it just a random mutation - and if a Ravenite was born with wings, would that change things? If a Ravenite gained wings - how would that upend this structure? Is that physical strength natural - or was it bred into them because the weaker ones weren't allowed to survive? Are Ravenites wrong to be angry at the perpetual injustice which shapes their lives? - but the point is, these are the kinds of ways racism and systemic injustice get justified to people and... I don't find it unlikely that Tiberius was indoctrinated in this from childhood. It likely never really occurred to him that it's strange or unjust or weird - as far as he's concerned, it's just how life is.

It's honestly one of the things that makes me a bit sad about Tiberius the character - he hunted artefacts and came from a messed up society. Can you imagine his joy at hunting the vestiges and the growth he could have gone through when VM encounter his Vorugal-struck homeland and see what his people have done to the Ravenites? You know that Vax wouldn't have stood for Tiberius being a racist shit, intentionally or not.

Whether Orion intended Tiberius to be unwittingly racist is unclear - certainly Tiberius responds to the tailless Tofor Brotorus in a way that indicates it's a planned part of his characterisation - and...

I've seen some people call that out as another reason he's Bad but my guys, having your character be flawed isn't a bad thing - it's a good thing, because it means they can grow and change. The problem is when one refuses to acknowledge those flaws as flaws, when one refuses to grow and change - which before his departure Orion seemed to be doing with both himself and Tiberius.

If we'd got to see more of Tiberius - if things had been better, perhaps - maybe we would have seen the group struggle with Tiberius' racism and seen Tiberius grow. As it is, Orion left before it could be more than a throwaway moment and Tiberius was killed before that growth could happen. We don't see Tiberius' racism have that much of an impact on his friendships or his dynamic with the group - but I would have loved to see it happen.

[markantonys]

Domina was crazy good. Central female relationships, appropriate and equal (non-gross) nudity, and gay characters who, while still crazy/creepy, wasn't the only f'd up one (lookin at you Tiberius)

i enjoyed it a lot too! tho idk if i would go so far as to call it crazy good myself haha and i actually was really bugged by its female relationships. with the exception of the main livia-antigone relationship pretty much all the other female relationships were shallow and needlessly antagonistic with soooo much cattiness (i'm so exhausted by rival sisters-in-law livia vs. octavia why can't an adaptation just let them be friends for once? and the show's lack of empathy towards scribonia's suffering despite purporting itself to be a Feminist Show™ was astounding) there were hints of a nice relationship between livia and julia but they only had a couple brief scenes together. we barely saw the other girls but marcella is shaping up to be a needlessly catty bitch as well so that's a wonderful take we can look forward to if there are more seasons -__-

and i'm torn about marcellus. i'm not saying that all gay characters must be flawless and morally pure because that would be boring and unrealistic (especially in an ancient roman setting), i'm just asking that the one (1) gay character not also be by far the vilest, cruelest person on the entire show lmfao like yeah tiberius had some shit going on too (which, given that iirc they implied he has some kind of mental illness, opens a whole other can of worms) but he was afforded lots of empathy, very much an "aww poor baby tiberius gets bullied by the others uwu" whereas marcellus was a spoiled brat right from the get go with very few, if any, redeeming qualities. they did humanize him a little right before his death and the actor did a fantastic job with those moments of vulnerability, but it was too little too late. (and while we're on the subject, marcellus shouldn't have been the only gay character seeing as it was very common for roman men to sleep with men as well as women, the majority of the male characters in any ancient rome-set media should be bi (to use an anachronistic modern label) if you ask me (female sexual behavior isn't discussed much in our male-authored primary sources so it's harder to speak to that))

all this being said though, i really appreciate how much this show did with the family dynamics and marriage shuffling of the augustan household and how many of the kids they managed to include - just about all of them, which i never thought i'd get to see in an adaptation! and while the details were obviously sensationalized, the show was actually quite accurate in terms of the historical events included (i was particularly impressed that they bothered with the primus affair, and i remember while i was watching that trial scene i was thinking "wow this is playing out EXACTLY like how it was described in what i've read"). and of course MY BOY IULLUS ANTONIUS he's tied with his dad as my most beloved historical figure and for years i've dreamed of seeing him portrayed onscreen and never thought it would happen, but this show gave him to me and made him a himbo and included his relationship with julia and acknowledged his suffering with augustus destroying his whole family and his fragile position in the household, and i will never ever get over it

[lizzybeth1986]

Quick Thoughts on Book 3, Chapter 14

• Apologies for the delay, guys. Still recovering.

• It's time for our Ball! YAY.

• ...and for Hana's parents. Not so yay.

• Every LI in the group has at least one not-very-ideal parent. For Liam and Maxwell it's their dads (though Bartalemy seems to be the best of the four) and for Drake and Hana it's their mums.

• Title: Welcome, One and All!

• Alternate Titles should include This Chapter Is Brought To You By Jeffery.

• For those who don't remember the TRR pre-release interviews, Jeffery is the dude who loves hats:

I'm pretty sure this chapter is his baby.

• So technically Xinghai and Lorelai have not kept in touch with Hana since her fight with Xinghai in Shanghai (that rhymes). There is a hint that she might have tried to reach out to them before the tour if you were getting engaged to her (she asks Ana de Luca to send the copies of her shoot to an address, which I presume was her home in Shanghai).

•

You bet I slammed that last option.

• There's also not a lot of difference in this scene between the Hana playthrough and the non-Hana one, and there should have been. The dynamics of this discussion will - should - be different if you're Hana's fiancée. They have Lorelai and Hana's dialogues change if you're marrying her at the end, but technically that's unavoidable. There should have been an obvious difference in dialogue here as well.

• Bertrand has returned. Again.

• AND HE'S LATE. Apparently because his son needs to be coached on proper cutlery placement through the babysitter.

• We have a brief tete-a-tete about Savannah and Bartie before moving on to our OOTD:

Tbh I think I'm okay with both. I had my reservations about the neck but I also like capes so I will take it. The traditional dove one makes you look like Red Riding Hood.

If you choose the phoenix gown, you also get to don a humongous hat, and you get the option to take it off anytime.

Esther loves hats. She's a happy happy camper xD She may not have said those 'fancy hat's comments to Regina in Book 1 but you bet she was thinking them! So Esther - and I as Esther's creator - feel validated and vindicated and all other sorts of v words 😄

• Also yes, Esther, I'm pretty sure that hat ate every other hat in Cordonia before making its way to your head.

• It's now time for our Ball, and our LIs are waiting for us to make our entrance. Liam calls you 'a heroine of myth and song', Maxwell tells you you're 'on fire', Drake asks him if you're trying to give him a heart attack, and Hana settles for a very simple 'you look gorgeous'.

• Okay yadda yadda announcements, yadda yadda speech, yadda yadda complimentes from guests esp if you chose the phoenix decor, yadda accolades all around.

• Basically the main conversations taking place at the Ball are with Madeleine, Kiara, Regina, Mara and Olivia.

- Madeleine: Mainly to close the main loop of Madeleine's role as press secretary. The previous conversation with Liam/Drake at the Lythikos Ball is implied when you choose to call her a snake, even though she sees that as a compliment.

- Kiara: You get to either call her brave, or to ask her about her well-being. Thankfully, she is able to at least sleep at night now. They're definitely wrapping up Kiara's story here. Which is okay, I'm pretty certain it wasn't meant to be manifested in the first place and I suppose I'm expected to be grateful she got some attention. But I won't be, because she deserved this - and perhaps better. I couldn't care less for her brother and would rather not see him again but at least they had the decency to wrap up her storyline first this time rather than ignore it in favour of him completely.

- One of my favourite sequences is the one with Regina. She's clearly affected by Constantine's death and still hasn't recovered enough to get used to the idea of attending a Ball without his presence yet. But you also see her struggling with the stoicism she's been brought up on, and chastising herself because she can't. You have the choice of either asking her what Constantine would have told her if he were alive (like hell I'll choose that option!) or telling her she should allow herself to grieve. I thought her parting words in this conversation were beautiful.

- Mara: From Mara we learn that the Nevrakis family had connections with the Sons of Earth, and that in fact Anton is the son of the leader of that group. I've seen some interesting theories around this, one of which is (I believe this one is @alicars theory) that he is Francesco's son. Which...would make that first meeting in Italy quite interesting, as well as the reveal that Francesco was friends with Liam's mother. Will Liam's mother's background be brought up in future chapters??

- Olivia: So this is what all our efforts to win Olivia over culminates into! I have such Diavolos vibes with this scene (not the betrayal bit, but the winning their trust bit. Olivia I think sticks by Liam's side whether she likes you or not), because if you look at the TCaTF ally chart in Book 3, Diavolos' name is the last on the list of people to join you, even though he has spent time with you as an ally and been part of the rescue mission to save Mind Control!Dom. In a lot of ways, while Olivia has a huge connection to Liam and becomes your ally on that score, it requires effort and some ice-breaking to get her to fully support you.

• Say hello to my new pets y'all!

As of now Esther has a horse named Celestia, a corgi names Joy, a visiting hawk named Tiberius, a black panther named Cava and two red pandas she has named Hansel and Gretel.

• I wonder if you have the ensuing group scene if you don't choose to accept the red pandas (I'd see for myself but the red pandas have really adorable sad faces).

• The group scene is alright, it's a lot like the one in Shanghai with the pandas. Liam is adorable and holds them like a pro, Maxwell is super super SUPER excited, Hana is shocked by their lack of manners (Hana they're animals!) in comparison to pandas and Drake is a mean meanie. You have Zeke on the side giving us factual animal info.

• We're now back at the estate, and Hana's folks have arrived.

• TO TAKE HANA BACK???

• Hana puts up a good fight against her mum (let's be honest, Xinghai hardly seems to have a say in this. He looks sad about this and barely gets in a sentence. This show is all Lorelai's), and refuses to come with them, at which point Lorelai insists on taking her belongings away since they belong to the Lee family, and she isn't a Lee anymore.

• You know what I want Hana to say?

"FINE KEEP THE CRUMMY LUGGAGE MOM LETS SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE ANOTHER WHOLEASS CHILD OUT OF THAT"

• Please tell me she gets to kick Lorelai's ass this chapter. Please.

• So the Ball and festival will continue this chapter, and I'm guessing that any drama might happen later on in the Capitol if we go by the trajectory of the previous books. The places most closely connected to the MC - Ramsford, New York, Valtoria - are usually where you forget briefly the tension in the books, before being plunged into complete and total chaos.

• I still think there's a LOT we have left to find out. A LOT.

• There is a possibility that Hana will get a diamond scene post her confrontation with her parents. And as far as I can see it, this is the culmination of her entire journey, her entire struggle. This is the last shot the writers have at doing justice to her character, and giving her a good scene. If Hana doesn't get an extremely fulfilling, nuanced scene - one that has a marked difference between her as a fiancee and her as a friend - then I doubt she will get another one. They will have lost their chance to be fair to this character.

• And if they fail to do justice to this character...I'm afraid that will be the end for me. I may be chapter reviews and essays, I may still write stuff inspired by this book...but whatever love I still have for TRR will be lost for good.

• Because you know what you're telling me, a brown woman with an upbringing not entirely unlike Hana's? Who loves this character and has to now try to relate to her because her own writers didn't give me enough material? You're telling me that you don't think stories like Hana's - stories like mine - are worth attention, worth nuance, worth telling properly, worth telling with heart. You're telling me women like Hana are alright as tokens, but not important enough as characters. You're telling me you want the accolades that go with using women of colour in your stories, but don't want to put in the work. In fact...you're already telling me that. You've been telling me that for the last two books.

• I'm sincerely hoping this will change with the chapter I will play now, and that I and other Hana stans don't walk away from this chapter disappointed. I really, really do. It won't completely make up for the lack of care they have given this character...but it will be SOMETHING.

• With that, I'm going to go into this week's chapter, folks. Seeya!