#and obviously it works well bc Dick changed damians life for the better like. maybe the most out of anyone

[welcometogrouchland]

you guys don't need context for this. He's the boy of all time!

[duketectivecomics]

You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial. 

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this.  I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao) 

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

[ectonurites]

Batcest shippers read comics, actually. And they write them, and draw for them. Please continue to make a fool of yourself pretending otherwise.

i got ranty here so the tldr: yeah no shit, you’re taking something i tweeted entirely out of context, i’m well aware of those facts and im not ‘pretending’ anything lmao

onto my full response:

i see you must have come from my twitter! and yeah, i’m unfortunately aware there are people who ship batcest working for dc, its super upsetting! the person who designed the current red hood outfit just posted j*ydick on their twitter today, which is horrifying to see.

like listen im not... im not gonna go out and harass people for shipping batcest. I literally do not have the energy, and I know I’m not gonna be convincing anyone of anything bc the people who chose to ship batcest have made their choice there.

but I’m always gonna advocate for like, those people TAGGING THEIR SHIT so that especially minors but also anyone else who doesn’t want to see fuckin’ incest doesn’t need to. And like, the creation of lists of what creators are making that stuff so people can block and move on? I also think that’s good. Like I don’t think people should go harass anyone over this because its just... theres no point. But letting people who don’t want to see it know who to block so they can move on? that’s a good thing.

The comments of mine I think you’re specifically talking about were about a specific but common type of fanon batcest shipper, because like... immabe real! its very clear a lot of the batfam community on here in general don’t read the comics, (like, as in many people will OPENLY ADMIT that they don’t) and thats not even an inherently bad thing, like people are allowed to interact with media how they want to! But when people get so divorced from canon by only reading fanworks or versions of characters that have been altered and their relationships altered, its easy for misconceptions about all of it to spread, and people to be shipping pairings that literally bear no resemblance to the canon versions/relations of the characters. This isn’t even exclusive to the people shipping batcest. However with the people shipping batcest like... its when those relationships in canon get blurred by just a fanon game of telephone that it becomes easier for them to justify shipping it, you know? That was the point I was trying to make on twitter (i think it was last night? this morning? i dont remember. its 1am rn time is fake)

but like, i’m sorry but in current canon Jason, Dick, Tim, and Damian all consider each other siblings (and Jason had even made a comment at one point in rhato about having four brothers, meaning he probably includes Duke too!). That is... canon. You can see multiple instances of this if you’re reading current comics. And while they have complicated relationships with Bruce, they do all consider him a father (even when Jason says he doesn’t- he literally flip flops on it depending on how he feels in a given day because of his trauma and stuff, but like there will be times only a few issues apart where he will or won’t admit Bruce is his dad). All of these characters have been adopted (or in Damian’s case obv adoption wasn’t necessary) by Bruce in canon at different times (and Cass also, but that’s only in pre new 52 as of right now)

If you are chosing to ship any of the siblings together (or any of them with bruce) you are chosing to ship incest. That is an active choice you are making, and you have to accept the consequences of that. Any judgement/backlash you face for shipping incest is something you are accepting by chosing to ship it.

And if you go “oh but they’re only adopted siblings not REAL siblings-“ you’re an asshole, because adopted siblings are real siblings. I don’t care if they didn’t grow up together, do you realize how invalidating that is towards like, real life people? The amount of people I’ve seen who are adopted themselves get insanely triggered and upset by that kind of content (not just in this fandom btw!) because it just shows people don’t see those familal bonds as being real? It’s not insignificant.

I know ‘media affects reality’ is a controvercial topic, and like obviously ‘i see this thing in media thus i will do it’ is NOT how it works, but the things you normalize/glorify in media you consume says a lot about your thoughts on the topics. Framing matters. Like obviously ‘haha i watch hannibal, gonna go eat people now-‘ is not the case. especially because that media doesn’t frame it as a good thing. That’s the thing I think people miss in these discussions a lot of the time. If you are like ‘i am going to explore how traumatizing incestual relationships could be through these characters’ with batcest? like go off! that could be interesting honestly, and that’s not glorifying it. But acting like ‘omg i just think its so romantic ❤️’ with stuff between characters who canonically are siblings... again you are accepting the judgement that may come your way by publicly doing that.

anyways, i’m well aware of how prevalent batcest is both in the comics industry and around here, i’m aware plenty of them do read comics, and you definitely missed the context in my tweets of me saying things like “a lot” “it feels like many” etc when saying batcest shippers don’t read comics. Context matters my dude ✌️ (also wanna point out, a lot of really gross people work in comics. Racist people, antisemetic people [even today there was some controversy abt that in some hulk comic i believe?] these people being in those industries is... not a good thing even if its normalized???)

But really I think its kinda funny to uh call me a ‘fool’ for something you think I’m doing because you took my words out of context. And maybe you weren’t trying to come off as smug but you absolutely do here and it just strikes me as very funny that you like... are acting like you’re smarter than me or better than me for being okay with incest being normalized in a fandom for superhero comics, a type of media that MANY KIDS READ AND PARTICIPATE IN DISCUSSION ABOUT, while I’m bothered by it.

I don’t talk about this stuff much on here because again, I don’t want to fight about it, I’m not gonna go out of my way to try to change people’s minds on any of it because I know that won’t accomplish anything, I much prefer to just... ignore the content I don’t want to see, maybe warn other people especially minors who also don’t want to see it, and move on with my life. You really didn’t need to bring this to my inbox here, but like go off I guess 🤷

editing this quick just to add in the tweets i made i think this anon is referencing that i very clearly started with ‘so many of them’, not me saying it applies to all of them

[coolgirl]

Jason expert rate Jason’s designs

sorry for being late i was busy with school but now i’m free so to celebrate. jason indulgence.

pre-crisis not robin

very cute. i like that it has a lil more of flair to it? the collar and the lines on the gloves and the shorter cape.. also love it has pants. king rlly king. wonder if they already knew he was gonna be robin anyways or if they were still considering nightbird. anyways, 8/10 bc its cute

pre & post-crisis robin (bc its basically the same)

i mean its a classic.. however it reminds me jason was the only robin who was simply given dick’s clothes rather than like. have an unique look? which sucks. 7/10 middle child syndrome is REAL

post-crisis robin (winter edition)

OKAY NOW THIS. i absolutely love. is it tacky? oh yes without a doubt. i still love the pants and the sleeves. finally winter clothes for this child, especially considering his new titans scene where he was bitching about the costume not being snow proof. he got what he wanted! 9/10

new 52/rebirth costume by

EPIC. IDC I LOVE IT.the circles on his arms and his boots.. the lines on his legs.. i just love it. i love the red mask too… it feels.. not more unique, but feels more jason-y than the other costume. 10/10

NOW. onto older stuff

hush

as u can see im VERY confusion about the pouches and the straps?? why??? whats the purpose.. generally its fine. the white strand moved a nation and i think the chest piece is cool, but everything else.. uglee. like the long as hell jacket and him looking 40 years old like why r u 19 looking like fifty? ugly white man. 5/10

winicks/utrh version

LITERALLY A CLASSIC. i love this costume sooo much. like jason obviously grew out of it, as in it wouldnt make sense for him anymore to go with something like this as his main costume because i feel like this fit the utrh mood (him not veing a vigilante/hero/villain whatver but trying to be a mob boss n shit) and it just. fucks. i love the helmet just being plain with no stupid mouth or nose shape. i simply love it. 10/10

nigthwing

its just. its just the nightwing costume. didnt even try he just stole that from dick. he still rocks it and looks better than dick, and u gotta give him points for accessorizing with his dagger. 7/10

red robin 

im not. a big fan of this costume.. i think the cowl is ugly, it just does not work for someone as big as jason… however i do like why he took this mantle and what it meant.. 6/10 no words head empty. 

oh brother. furryman

ITS SUCH AN UGLY COSTUME. muzzle batman walked so muzzle red hood could run. its just. ugly like ugly. i dont like the ears or again the muzzle or whatever the hell is going on in the arms.. its just so edgy. 5/10

WANNA KNOW WHAT A SEXY EVIL BATMAN COSTUME LOOK LIKE?

Injustice 2 batman

I2 HAD IT IN THE BAG BABY. i like that its like classic batman costume but again! with some jason touches! the red eyes, the electric tiddies making a comeback.. epic genuinely epic. 10/10

and if ur not into evil jason

100% dad ‘i have my life figured out’ batman jason 

just like the nightwing costume this is just. batman costume. nothing special or different from it so its like did u even try? BUT in this scenario it actually means smth that he stuck to bruces costume.. sweet.. but boring. 7/10

speaking of. evil ugly designs. ugh i hate this.

this motherfucker

ive never. ever. felt as humiliated by a costume than thetime jason wore this. like MORTIFYING RLLY. its DISGUSTINGGG. the helmet shape. the fucking WHITE. the SKULL PLEASE WHO DESIGNED THIS WHO HATES ME IN PARTICULAR SO MUCH??? THIS MAN DOES NOT FUCK! HES UGLY! HE STINKS!!!! the red guns are epic that much i can say. LOOK AT THOSE PANS GOD ITS SO HUMILLIATING. 0/10 WORST COSTUME EVER.

HOWEVER. winick and the artist spun GOLD from it, because next time jason wore possibly my favorite costume to date

this motherfucker…2!

like look how much better it looks with a little of swag.. the helmet without eyes.. the belts.. the fucking leather jacket.. keeping the red guns/gloves.. like seriously i dont know a better man. the skull is still awful and i wouldve replaced the white for black and MWAH best costume. like the black part at the top make it all red and the white make it black.. god this jason fucks massively i love him. 11/10 my favorite by a landslide perhaps

new 52/rebirth red hood

OKAY I KNOW theyre slightly different (rebirth has shorter sleeves and a more padded look) but to me its like. same thing. okay i think its.. fine. its not phenomenal but its not ugly.. i like the brown jacket more than the black jacket i have to admit, its more distinctive and i simply like the color more, however i do not.. like jason having the bat symbol.. but thats also a me thing about how badly written this is. anyways. the helmet with the mouth disgusts me and everytime its drawn like that its humilliating. like. 7/10. maybe 7+. when it has the mouth or like nose ANY FACIAL EXPRESSION RLLY its a 5. 

wingman

oh i absolutely despise that helmet. he looks like fucking. terminator. its the ugliest shape ive ever seen and the visor is.. huge. i dont like the shoulder pads either idk what the fuck its going on with the thing around his neck either.. like hes. knockout batman and i HATEEE IT. damians costume slaps tho. i just… its… ugly. like.. 3/10. 

get damian back arc red hood costume

oh im a HUGE fan of this design.i love how his costume is designed in a way thats like. if jason was a dnd character he absolutely would be a tank. the padding, the red undertones everywhere, i just.. love it. i like how all the costumes were done to reflect their personalities you know.. i like this robin red hood hybrid. 9/10 would even say 10/10 bc i just enjoy how gleason draws jason.

red hood/arsenal costume

its like. i dont hate it completely (i love the way the hood+helmet looks) and thats.. yeah thats pretty much all i like about it. i HATEEEE the vest i hate it fr.i hate how huge the sumbol is and idk this costume just does not spark joy. 5/10

outlaw costume

okay this one. this one drives me insane. because like. okay i dig parts of it. i like the lack of sleeves. i like the gloves thingies. i like the hood. i could get aboard him ditching the helmet - it breaks all the damn time anyways. i like the stripes on his pants in the boots. ALL SEPARATE? NEAT. now i hate. hate. the muzzle. like WHY IT LOOKS SO UGLYYY LIKE SO UGLY like unless the artist GETS IT and is SEXY it looks awful. look at this

AWFUL. also like it made sense for when he was on the run and he had to make do and assemble a costume from what he had but like now hes sponsored by lex, get that man a goddamn new suit already please. anyways. 6/10.. like i said i like many elements from it but its still.. kinda ugly all together and depends A LOT on the artist.

three jokers

im torn on this one.. i think its a bit boring.. i dont rlly like the top part, it reminds me SOO much of that one tt issue where he beat the fuck out of tim while wearing a robin costume like i understad the implications of him wearing a costume thats similar to the robin blouse but im not a big fan.. also i prefer the brown leather jacket. its like not his worst costume by far but not the best.. like pretty basic?  i would say 6/10

NOW SOME AUS.

tiny titans & lil gotham

okay these two are like. pretty much the canon versions of robin and red hood HOWEVER they both have details that are different from the original version and DESERVE a mention. the curls on robin jason and jasons red gloves/belt are ICONIC. whoever designed them knew what they were about, so 10/10 best bapy jason.

arkham knight

does the person who designed this know how much theyve done for the lgbt community? i hope they do. i love.. a lot about this costume. i love the ears, i love how techno it is, i love the layers to it.. im.. not a big fan of the whole military thingy but i have to admit that applying it to the design itself is kind of neat.. i love the colors too and how.. practical it is while being. well. kinda dramatic? the whole bat aesthetic.. yeah. i love it. 9/10

arkham red hood

this one.. when u think about it the outlaw version is VEEERY similar to this one: the pants, the hood, the jacket eve. however i like this helmet so much more, i have a weakness for eyeless (??) helmets.. i like the little details of it as well, i remember that pic going around of it being held together with like. fuckign stitches and bandaids. legendary. i love this look, i would say 9+/10

injustice 2 jason

okay gonna go ahead and say it: not a big fan of the helmet. it looks like.. a bug? the lenses do not spark joy. this bitch has many styles and like toners etc and i will no rate them all. i think its a pretty basic design, not the best but not the worst either. like if it was an exam i would make them pass but make faces at what im reading like eeehhhgh. 7/10.

hag jason

middle one is like literally, on the outside and superficial level, just. his usual costume. the jacket and the grey kevlar and the bat. now the gloves are sexy as hell.. and in the whit ebackground one u can appreciate the under costume better and i really like it?? i just.. like the design. I HATE HOWEVER the bat helmet. WHY IS IT HOLLOW?? BITCH HELLO?? AND THE BATMAN SYMBOL DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! and i like things making sense!!!. we will not talk about jason in this book. like.. 8/10. maybe 9 if im feeling it.

hag jason 2: the hagger and the furious

hes just.. a little old man.. he cannot change this.. i like this design. i like seeing jason grow old. wish it wasnt in this context. my father rlly. 8/10

��-

am i forgetting any jays.. i wont do all animated robins because they all look the same and the one that doesnt i do not like. SO HERES my thoughts..

[cryptocism]

So since pretty much everyone agrees that Tim needs a name change, and I think most people dislike the first two RR costumes (I dislike the pretty much Robin one too, because it seems like he hasn’t accept losing Robin, when I feel a lot of his comics right after Bruce W died was about that?) which leads me to: What do you think Tim’s costume would look like if he got a good outfit, and what name?

o yeah i was not a fan of the cowl. and the n52 design is just… so busy and excessively accessorised (excessorised???) - i drew it a couple times for this project im workin on and the whole process was me squinting at reference panels and whispering softly but passionately “what the fuck” - and i agree on the rebirth RR design, it looks more derivative of dick and jasons retconned robin costumes than inspired by tims og 80s design (however. the unternet costume - its simple and appealing and clearly nightwing-inspired and i am a fan, also the giant scythe/halberd/mace thing was so ridiculous i loved it)

which is why i thank pat gleason for my life bc tims new outfit is such a good modernisation of his original robin design. so i mean to answer ur question i think tim has a p good design right now (although not for long i guess since they announced hed get a new look/codename soon) BUT if i were in charge of debuting a new design and name… hm……….

whatever his new name is, it’d preferably have something to do with wherever his personal storyline is headed, which i dont know, and for all my complaining abt how red robin is a shit name i dont actually have great alternatives lol. i did see somewhere the suggestion for the name “Cardinal” which i dont hate, so ill use that as a placeholder for now (although “Halcyon” is an interesting option)

tangentially, my personal preference for his robin graduation would be a miniseries featuring tim and damian both as robin, begrudgingly having to work together to fight some greater enemy and becoming true brothers along the way. ending with tim giving damian his blessing to be robin (a post-mantle blessing but still) with the first amicable passing on of the robin title literally ever

as for Look: his new design should a) accurately reflect his character b) mesh well with whatever tone his personal storyline is going for c) be a natural progression of gleasons newest iteration while still d) able to stand as its own iconic look

i always thought tim would do really well in a more grounded noir-style detective story, both using and especially subverting the tropes of the genre (for instance tim befriends every femme fatale and romances absolutely zero of them. theyre pals and have weekly movie nights or smthn) obvs using some of the mystery elements to springboard into classic comic wild times etc etc. theres also a great opportunity to include some more cyberpunk aesthetics to the look and feel ofthe story

i.e. tim is part of the waynetech r&d teams, working with them to develop new technologies, and proceeding to test out some of the prototypes while doing vigilante work (bc terry had to get his rocket boots from somewhere ok). gotham is still gotham, but its starting to see some of that neo-futuristic/blade runner flavour from batman beyond.

so. cyberpunk detective story starring cha boy tim drake. im not gonna draw it rn but lemme just gather some ref elements here in case i ever do

first off - motorcycle, obviously. redbird is back babey and this time its a two-wheeler. all his gear would be modded the hell out of, but the motorcycle itself would be an approximate balance of 70% ducati and 30% tron lightcycle situation. a speedy bike with ample room for the edgy overkill batfam aesthetic, with maybe a little akira in there who knows

same goes for helmet; 70/30 on this modern/cyberpunk situation. heres a quickly photoshopped “cardinal” helmet lol 

although theres totally room for some daft-punk leds in there. serving as a heads up display AND a fun neon aesthetic. I really want to play into that John Wick neo-noir situation.

besides that… ive got a preference for street style over the superhero spandex, so… detective jacket. every detective has a good jacket. norm breyfogle made a comment on his early tim robin designs that itd be pretty either/or on jacket vs cape, merging the two looked a little silly. for robin they probably decided on cape to keep things classic, but for cardinal i can do what i want

and i want to bring back some of this popped collar.

which i basically did for that other tim design i drew, which i still like, so this one would probably be at least a lil borrowed from that. 

attempting to merge cape/jacket might end up smthn like these:

which admittedly i like. 

admittedly… i do also like the concept of wings introduced in tims n52 design, i just think they couldve been hidden/incorporated better

greig rapson had a sweet robin design that had a sort of flight-suit (which dove into the actual mechanics??? i love) and since id want to dive into tim testing out waynetech prototypes, its a pretty good natural progression from him to terrys glider thing

the whole ensemble would be fairly understated however - enough to semi blend in with any crowd, hero or civilian. after all the story focus would be just as much about solving the mystery as it is punching the bad guy

the various interchangeable gadgets would be both prototypes of terrys eventual batsuit, and also all the failed prototypes that never managed to get off the ground. just to add an element of tension/plot devices wherein tims gear could break or malfunction pretty much anytime.

im fixated on this rocket boot situation though so itd be a paired down version of terrys eventual seamless/invisible design. still noticable and clunky, but working with the sleek modernish style outlined by gleason

smthn almost similar to the prowler actually from spiderverse - as in: Clearly Rocketboots, and clearly diy’d the shit out of, but still working with that Aesthetic

(most of the screencaps of prowler are dark af so im taking this from jesus alonso iglesias concept art) 

im debating on the addition of more overtly birdlike/cyberpunk elements, so ill add this here cause its dope as fuck (from ahmet atil akar). 

and a lot of batclan capes tend to end with that concave spiked look, which works great for bats but not really for birds. a tailcoat might emulate the bird tail, but it also might evoke Penguin a lil too much idk.

also in the interest of keeping everything within the same sort of design language, i would Love to see some new villains emulating deconstructionist/architectural kawakubo fashion:

like could you imagine the supervillain potential

so uhhh yeah. budding cyberpunk detective story with a little noir and a little technological advancement progressing in fits and starts. taking from the gleason foundation with heavy black featuring brighter coloured accents and modern sleekness, made a little dorky via prototype technology, with some extra neon blade runner shit thrown in there.

depending on how much i love or hate the new codename/design reveal i might draw this via inspired motivation or spiteful motivation lol

[coolgirl]

Fic recs masterpost

ok so i used to have a lot of fics masterposts on my old blog and people keep asking for recs + i wont be able to upddate them or anything anymore so i decided to just move them all to this blog

under the cut: AUS / arkham knight / jaykyle / jayroy / robin!jason / gen / angst fics 

*: last added (april 4) //   for some reason the links arent working so go to jasontodd.tumblr.com/ficrecs for the links, sorry!

AUS

The Virtue of Revenge | young justice au with jason as red x making his own team with roy, starfire, raven, and others. i love it, even if it has shaky moments and stuff pls give it a chance.

crystal silence creeping down | young justice/lost days au

Flicker from View | another young justice au

Live to Rise | yes. you guessed it. young justice au.

Collide &  Convergence | au where post crisis jason goes to the young justice universe

The Changeling Sequence | series where jason meets damian before he went to gotham. The last part is a wip that i doubt will ever get updated again, so uh be careful. read only the first or second part and forget about the third.

The Drag of Fate | au where jason is lady shiva’s son as well. Part of a series, which i also highly recommend but idk if they would be au as well

heavy on the heart | another jason and cass are bio siblings. A+.

Didymous | cass and jason are twins.

repairing the world | i dont know how to explain this series.. its an au and really really good. Jason doesn’t appear in all the pieces.

just go  | jayroy, wings au

In the Shadows (of Who We Used to Be) | jayroy, black widow & hawkeye au

The Family (or how Jason Todd was adopted by the Avengers) | marvel crossover

bad boys bad boys (whatcha gonna dooo) ♫ | jason is damian’s batman. iconic fic imo.

Rise (And Try Not to Fall) | star wars au

A Bird in Morning | bruce finds jason when he’s at the hospital after crawling out of his grave

Moment Between | ghost jason & ghost martha and thomas wayne

We’re not in Crime Alley Anymore | au where jason was younger when bruce took him (and he didnt become robin)

Perhaps The World Ends Here | marvel crossover, future jaykyle

Batten Down the Hatches | a few different aus here. young justice + helena wayne

My Brother's Keeper | jason & damian knew each other from before + damian arrives to gotham just for jason

When the Moon Found the Sun | main story is clark/bruce but it’s preetty cute. soulmates au.

Between the Light and the Dark* | damian & jason uuhm i cant remember what this one was about per se bc im reading like 5487 similar fics but yeah

Two Dead Birds  | time travel stuff

Red Blood, Blue Blood | jason (and the rest of the batkids) are bruce’s biological kids, yeah i wasnt a big fan of the premise at first either but its gud

Rebirth | talia & jason, mind the warnings

you belong among the wildflowers | kate n renee adopt jason instead of bruce

We're the warriors of tomorrow |  Cass, Jason and Damian meet while with the League of Shadows

Can You Hear Me?  | ghost jason

to death's other kingdom I will not go  | bruce makes it on time au

The Ties That Bind  |  The pit restores Jason's body but not his mind, Ra's makes him one of his assassins and Talia adopts him as her own.

death’s outlet song of life* | the gordons find jason before the events of lost days

reflections on shattered mirrors.* | talia & jason stuff

Come Alive* | young justice s3 based

A Path Upon The Ground* | au from lost days, eddie and jason meet again

ARKHAM VERSE

If He Had Come & the sequel  Desiderium | au where bruce rescued jason before he could become the arkham knight.

the roads we know

this gun needs no bullets

JASON & BRUCE CENTRIC (not romantic)

Quack | this one is so crackish but so so cute i love it, robin jason

If He Had Come & sequel Desiderium  | arkham knight verse and its so good and has a lot of bruce & jason feels

Neverland /  Keep Lying To Me | deaged/ little jason from another universe.. sad and cute

Icarus and Bubble Gum | fluff, robin jason

Knock On Death’s Door | bit of both but not so so so angst, red hood jason

dead and dying things | au

In Memoriam | angst, trying to fix their relationship, red hood jason

If the Fates Allow | angst, red hood jason

The D-Word | fluff kind of.. red hood jason

This Place We Built With Grace and Guilt | angst angst angst, red hood jason

I Love You | robin jason, fluff

Wayward Birds | fluff and angst, robin jason

yesterday’s gone, yeah it went away (i’ve been lost but i’m here today) | another trying to fix their relationship fic, its cute and sad

We’re not in Crime Alley Anymore | au where jason was younger when bruce took him (and he didnt become robin)

Little Absences | sad, robin & red hood

Schrödinger's Honest Man | sad, drugs tw, absolute fave

White Christmas | bruce & robin!jason

Frozen History | de-age

Stargazer | jason n bruce patching their relationship.. its iconic

Unconventional Family Reunions | bvs setting

Prompt: Trapped | mind the warnings

Safe In My Arms 

The Failures of Reverse Engineering  | ghhm not really bruce & jason maybe?

to death's other kingdom I will not go | bruce saves jason au

points of impact  | glass case get fucked

is it my fault? (we've been missing each other)*

waiting for you. *

The Little Things*

World's Finest* | my uwus my uwus have fallen everywhere

JAYKYLE (all iconic)

In Which Kyle Confesses The Same Thing Six Times

milk and honey

Batman vs Space Bureaucracy

deadlock

attention to detail

tempest in a teapot

violet tendencies

no love, no glory (no hero in his skies)

keep the door open for me

waffles and war 

The Art of Subtlety (jason lives au)

Perhaps The World Ends Here | marvel crossover, future jaykyle

Riding in Batcars with Boys

boy, you fill my lungs with sweetness

no chance, no way, i won't say it (no, no)  

a change in the atmosphere

invitation to commitment

Overexposed 

i deserve that, don't i, some sort of blazing love that i can live with 

i won't say 

The water is always warmest at dawn

JAYROY (all iconic too)

sleepless 

Countdown

just go (wings au)

Unspoken

(for thy love is) better than wine (E)

Rooftops

Dick Wolf is a Really Funny Name

A headache isn’t always a bad thing

sad eyes, bad guys, mouth full of white lies [high school au]

kairosclerosis 

The Night They Met 

march down an empty street (like a ship into the storm) *

Archange de la mort (rallume ton flambeau) * | hic warning lol

this time, the loser wins | steph & jason centric though

So Baby Come Light Me Up *

Little Talks *

All the light is never ending, much like you and I; *

Don't let me go, for I feel I may fall * | soulmates au

Something Reckless * 

OTHERS

how to make a home. * | some eddie/jason if you squint, rose/eddie/jason team up

This Car Ain't Big Enough For The Both Of Us* | could be read as jayconnor :3

Robin/young!Jason

The Art of Subtlety | jason lives au, jaykyle

Little Absences | sad, robin & red hood

I Love You | robin jason, fluff

Wayward Birds | fluff and angst, robin jason

Icarus and Bubble Gum | fluff, robin jason

Quack | this one is so crackish but so so cute i love it, robin jason

we were not tragedies | jason & babs, read warnings

Heavy Home | gen, alfred & jason

Good News (No One Mourns the Wicked) | Jason & steph & damian. harold they’re dead (kinda robin!jason??)

Love Yourself (So No One Has To) | good amazing au with some selina & jason (not really.. robin but it starts as robin!jason i guess?)

Moment Between | ghost jason & ghost martha and thomas wayne

We’re not in Crime Alley Anymore | au where jason was younger when bruce took him (and he didnt become robin)

Tired &  Laundry | kinda au, read tw!

Smoke | jason & jim gordon

White Christmas | bruce & robin!jason

is it my fault? (we've been missing each other)* | mix of present and past jason

Sidekick* 

waiting for you.* | technically baby jason

The Little Things*

World's Finest* | oh this one.. my uwus

GEN

hold on to what  we are, hold on to your heart | gen, Barbara & Jason friendship. Some dinahbabs & jayroy

gotta give the boy points | gen, absolute fave

Strangers in Nothing but Name | marvel crossover, side steve/bucky

If He Had Come |  Desiderium | Arkham Verse, gen

I can’t  think up a good  name for this | young justice verse, gen apart from canon relationships

A Better Thesis | gen, p short but i loved it

The  F-Word | gen, batboys being batboys

until i’m in my grave | gen, wip 

Robins United | gen, batkids bonding, except for cass, thats my only complaint

Free of Dogma | gen, canon divergence, marvel crossover w Jason & Bucky

bad boys bad boys (whatcha gonna dooo) ♫ | au where damian is jasons robin and not dick’s, obviously damian & jason brotp. 

Heavy Home | gen, alfred & jason

In the  Shadow of Two Gunmen | gen, Marvel crossover

Flicker from View | side Barbara/Dick, young justice verse

I Love You | gen, Bruce & Jason

how to  hide a stray resurrected superhero from your parents/parental figure | au, jason & tim friendship kinda

One For The Road | Jason/Roy/Koriand’r but its SO cute

Baby,  It’s Cold Outside | gen, Dick & Jason

The  (Family) Doctor’s  Appointment | gen, batboys bonding

The Family (or how Jason Todd was adopted by the Avengers) | marvel crossover, gen

Reason | wip, gen, canon divergence

Soliloquy | gen, tim & Jason brotp,  and really cute batfam moments

Red As The Shadow Of Death | gen, young justice/under the red hood verse

Give Yourself a Chance | gen, duke & Jason & leslie brotpish

homecoming | outlaws brotp fic, could be considered shippy if you want to

And I Said What About Breakfast at Tiffany’s | jason & steph

Of Bats and the Forsaken | jason & all the batkids, side steph/cass and jay/roy if you squint

this is a long drive (for three robins who don’t agree on much) | no capes au, steph & jason & damian, background tim/tam

The Dying of the Light | marvel crossover, bucky & jason, canon divergence

Cat | selina &  jason, catlad au

Killing for Love | cass & jason, au  where jason was lady shivas son  

Keep Lying To Me | de-aged au, just heartbreaking imo, cursed fic

The Social Habits of Robin | gen, batboys. Where_is_cass.jpg tho

Steph and Jay’s Excellent Adventures | series, Steph & Jason

Neverland | jason & batkids, young!jay travels to the future. sad asad sad

on a thin chain of moments and something like faith | gen, jason & cass & steph mostly. really good

Good News (No One Mourns the Wicked) | Jason & steph & damian. harold they’re dead

In a Parallel Life | batboys focused, it has amazing dialogue, dynamics, and characterization. It’s only missing Cass and the rest of the girls.

repairing the world | series, not everything is about the batfam.

Born to Run (Born to Rise) | Jason & Talia having a mother/son relationship reblog if you agree

Live to Rise | it updated again p recently so yay! young justice verse

To Save a Dying City  | jason + other people

Let’s Have Some Fun This Beat Is Sick | mostly damian centric

Movie Night: The Mummy  | read trigger warnings, batboys

The Trading Chain  | not jason centric, but it has cass being older than jason and calling him “little brother” so noice

we sure know how to run free  | jason & cass

Yesterday’s Voices | bruce loses his memory au

Nests and Cages series | read trigger warnings

Roots | barbara centric, really good plot and characterization

Love Yourself (So No One Has To) | good amazing au with selina & jason

Retrograde Motion | de aged jason au

Provenance | mostly roy centric, bruce fucks oliver’s life for what he did to roy. iconic

Schrödinger's Honest Man | sad, drugs tw, absolute fave 

Batten Down the Hatches | a few different aus here. young justice + helena wayne

My Brother's Keeper | jason & damian knew each other from before + damian arrives to gotham just for jason

White Christmas | bruce & robin!jason

until i'm in my grave v2 | this one is already mentioned in this post BUUUT the writer started rewriting it so!

Frozen History | de-age

Stargazer | jason n bruce patching their relationship.. its iconic

show me yesterday, for i can’t find today | time travel au

Warm Enough | alfred & jay fluff

Parallels | mia & jason team up

Legacy | reverse robins, not jason centric but hes there alright.. i think.. i cant remember :D

What are the words I'm forbidden to say?* | damian & jay fluff

Cracked Foundation| jason n damian

Cat's Cradle  | more jason n damian

spaces in between  | damian & jason again

When the lights go out  | damian & jason, theres a pattern here

in my head, i do everything right | some jason & steph

is it my fault? (we've been missing each other)* | past & future jason

life, if well lived* | jason travels back in time and meets martha & thomas wayne

In Charge * | babie jason

Pyrrhic victory* | jason & damian stuff

Twists and Turns* | more jason & damian bonding

Of Brothers and Batcows* | guess what.. yes! more jason & damian

This Car Ain't Big Enough For The Both Of Us* | jason & connor.. say no more!

First Gear* | back to jason & damian please read this.. damian tries to teach jason to drive

changing, falling, fading (please watch over me)* | jason bonds with damian & steph

ANGST

Through the Valley of the Shadow of Death [read the trigger warnings!!]

in the repairing the world series there are a lot of fics dealing with jason, tho Warm Enough ugh not all are centered around him. I would say read  Escalation | Coup de Grâce |  Interlude for the rh!jason arc, and  Tired &  Laundry for robin!jason. [also read trigger warnings]

Countdown | jason/roy]

those six days [trigger warnings again!!!]

Call | angst

the tune without the words  | kind of character study from jim gordon’s pov

Unspoken | jason/roy, really angsty if you remember how red hood arsenal ended

If He Had Come & Desiderium | arkham knight verse, read trigger warnings!

Reason | on hiatus :/

hold on to what we are, hold on to your heart   | this is my favorite ever.. read trigger warnings

Heavy Home | alfred & jason

until i’m in my grave [trigger warnings!]

Keeping Broken Pieces Together

Monsters | marvel crossover

gotta give the boy points | this one please!!!! another fav. read trigger warnings

The weight of it [trigger warnings!]

Live to Rise | young justice verse

Neverland | THIS ONE IS PURE ANGST!!! please its so sad..

Keep Lying To Me | this one has some angsty scenes too im sad emoji

hangman is coming down from the gallows  | some angst

Movie Night: The Mummy  | read trigger warnings, batboys

Love Yourself (So No One Has To)

All in the Blood [read trigger warnings]

Little Absences

Stargazer | jason n bruce patching their relationship.. its iconic

Rebirth * | mind the warnings and its really. sad.

The Failures of Reverse Engineering *

Eternal Soliloquy * | sad sad

throw me a lifeline (I might even catch it) *

changing, falling, fading (please watch over me) * | jason & steph & dami angst