#and it's possible rio showed up because billy showed up

[aparticularbandit]

Okay but:

1) How did Billy know where Agatha was? Did he know she was under a spell before finding her in Westview, or did he figure that out once he was there? (Agnes's screen time is straightforward by her perception but not necessarily analogous to what happens to everyone else outside of her perception.)

2) Were there really three years between WandaVision and DSMOM? The official timeline sets it in 2024 (after WandaVision in 2023 - it also sets it before Hawkeye, which I disagree with, but not the point), which means no. But Agatha All Along takes place in 2026. Why did it take an extra two years for Rio to show up to free Agatha - as part of her job (her words in episode one, and I don't think her lines are jaded by Agnes's perception - I think Rio's words cut through that - even if Agnes wouldn't have understood them the way Agatha would)?

3) Agnes's worldview switched from nosy neighbor in a sitcom to detective in a crime show so suddenly, and the show implies this happened as a result of Wanda's death - since she's investigating that crime - but why did it take two additional years for that to happen? Why didn't it happen immediately when Wanda died? (Deadpool and Wolverine is theorized to take place in that universe's 2023, so they could have set Agatha All Along earlier; Agatha All Along kept getting pushed back - did Jac always intend for it to be three years, regardless of when the show aired?)

Which really leads to:

4) What is the significance of three years? Why is all of this happening now and not immediately after Wanda's supposed death? Rio says Wanda is gone, so Agatha should be able to claw herself free - why did it take two years after Wanda's supposed death for Rio to show up if Wanda really died in DSMOM? (Rio says she's gone; she doesn't say she's dead.)

[stormythalamus]

agatha finale rant

so I’ve been seeing a lot of people complaining about the finale of Agatha and I wanted to give my two cents on their main points: 

1. “they used agatha’s show as a way to promote a man!!” well yes! that’s how marvel tv works im afraid. or any tv, really. wandavision was used to introduce agatha and monica, which led to their projects in the mcu (aaa, marvels). agatha introduced billy, leading to his future in visionquest or his solo series, which will introduce tommy and vision, which will lead to children’s crusade to reintroduce wanda. this is common for any tv show, but especially a big, connected franchise like marvel. i find it so concerning that even after all the promotion that showed us billy and agatha as co-leads, people were STILL shocked when the finale sets up a future story centered around him. like i hate to break it to yall but marvel wants money. and more shows means more money.

2. “they killed off a lesbian woman and not the gay man!” first of all, in the comics, agatha is a spirit guide for the scarlet witch. this form is her most comic accurate yet. also, did yall really think that was an unfair ending? or an ending PERIOD? all her death made me think of was the possibilities for the future with both billy AND rio. and again; rio was promoted as the ‘antagonist’ to agatha since the beginning. i don’t know how people went into this excepting a happily ever after for these two. they were always depicted as tragic lovers, and i honestly think the kiss of death was beautiful and poetic. i also don’t think this is the last we’re seeing of rio. and, as a side note, homophobia is still not okay! it doesn’t matter if you’re also gay; lesbians can be homophobic towards gay men, and gay men can be lesbophobic towards lesbians. and i’ve seen wayyyy too much of both in this fanbase. you can criticize characters and critique actors without bringing up their sexuality. we have enough incel homophobes doing that for us

3. if you’re still complaining about wanda not coming back i have no hope for you

4. this show, since day ZERO, was promoted as a show with billy and agatha as coleads. while i wish we had more backstory for how agatha and rio met, the salem flashbacks involving nicholas, the road scheme, and the song were much more important to the show. the parallels between nicky and billy were explored throughout the season a lot more than agatha and rios story (whether or not you like it, it’s still true (i personally wish we had a bit more on how they met 😭))

5. sending hate to actors about things their characters did is STILL not okay! and never will be!

6. this might be a hot take but if you’re only watching a show for a ship and don’t care about the story at all your opinion is irrelevant to me. like people who started watching after it was revealed in the show that agatha and rio were lovers (because, correct me if i’m wrong, this was never revealed before the episodes dropped) have no right to be upset when the show focuses on other things. and this is coming from a MASSIVE fan of agathario. and a lesbian. i loved the fact that i was watching characters who just happened to be lesbians have their own story. yes, i wish there was more agathario in the flashbacks. but i’m really not upset at all by what we got. and don’t get me wrong, people have every right to be disappointed, but they don’t have the right to hate on the creators and actors of the show. that’s not cool.

this is way longer than i thought it was gonna be 😭😭 hope everyone enjoyed the finale

[ennn]

Look, the show has set itself up for a sequel so obviously I'd be surprised it doesn't happen

Yes, this could turn out to be entirely wishful thinking or nothing might happen because TV development in general and Marvel is a mess and shit happens but here's what I want to believe:

There is a rumour from a few weeks back that they are developing a sequel to AAA that isn't the Vision series.

I know, this seems surprising since many have the impression the Vision series is the last of the Wandvision trilogy BUT considering Ultron is said to be in the Vision series, and it's centred on White Vision as the lead character, I don't expect it to focus on witchcraft or magic, or to have the same themes and style WV and AAA have.

So rumour is that the AAA sequel will be focused on finding Tommy. This came about even before Episode 5 from what I remember.

My theory or possibly deluded thinking is that during the production / post-production of AAA a sequel was greenlit and they ended up editing (or even reshooting) bits of the finale for the setup -- to the unfortunate extent of undercutting Agatha's story and leaving a bunch of things unresolved (for the sequel).

Assuming there is a sequel planned, you can clearly see how the finale spells it out with Billy and Agatha as the leads, Rio as a ready antagonist, the quest to find Tommy, a similar witchy flavour and also similar humour -- and it could also lead into the next Scarlet Witch movie.

Now usually sequels are announced right after the show ends but it's possible they're still working deals or details out. And these may be impacted by how AAA is being received.

But yeah let's wait and see for now.

[alliseaisfandom]

Some Coven of Chaos headcanons

(I haven't watched the finale yet and so I'm coping already just in case. For arguments sake we assume the road was real and at the end it gave Jen, Billy, Agatha and Rio the rest of the coven back, because I'm sappy and live in denial)

They're all alive and meet for holidays. Keep that in mind for the rest of the list.

Jen mixes the best drinks. Alcoholic or not, everyone is convinced there's magic involved. She's got a lifelong ownership of the liqueur cabinet at everyone's house.

Alice can play the cello. Billy is the only one who knows this fact. That is until he can get her tipsy enough to break it out someday play for the coven (he almost got it at Samhain)

Lilia has a "memorial pool" in her backyard.

She was also the one to veto Cats out of Billy's suggestion list for musicals they could go to

Said musical outing has yet to happen since almost everyone voted in a different thing

Agatha voted for wicked.

Rio voted for beetljuice (there was a fight over this, Billy remembers very little of it other than hearing Eddie yell "just because you say it three times doesn't mean your vote counts more". It was the first time he brought Eddie to meet the Coven, and sure at the time he didn't know he was arguing with Death Herself, but Billy was impressed regardless)

Lilia voted for Carmen. When told that Opera was not on the list, she argued that dying granted her an extra vote.

Alice agreed, and so West Side story lives on Billy's whiteboard with 2 votes

Jen voted first and picked Chicago, which Billy also voted for, unfortunately when he tried using Lilia's argument, he was reminded rather aggressively and extensively by Rio that being unmade and Dying are actually two very different things

It's the most anyone has ever heard her talk at once and Billy still regrets not taking out his notebook to remember more of it

Unfortunately he only remembered that he did in fact die as William after he and Eddie were on their way home

Rio hates easter with a passion. She has a great time during Good Friday and then sulks for the rest of the weekend

She also steers clear of most of South America and southern Europe in the ends of cotober-beginning of November, not that she doesn't like the Death related holidays, it's just that people keep spotting her even when she doesn't want them to! It's exclusive to that time of year and she's been trying - and failing- to stop it for centuries

The Titanic was a gift from Agatha to Rio. Yes the Iceberg was an accident, in the way that it rendered useless the very precarious fire she'd set to one of the engine rooms

Rio was very thankful.

Billy's school organised an end of year trip to Italy. That night he got a call from Lilia where she told him the best places to go to, what tourist traps to avoid, and asked if he could bring her back a package stashed away under the floorboards of what he eventually found out was a heavily guarded historical monument

The first time they all actually got together to celebrate anything was Alice's birthday dinner

Agatha found herself with 6 unwanted guests in her kitchen and zero explanation. She did not kick them out, a fact she loudly proclaims to regret as often as possible

There is a group chat

Billy, Alice e and Rio are the most active in it, with Jen following, a bit behind because she "actually has a real job that takes up time that you all seem to have free for some reason" (her herb garden died that afternoon and she refused to answer any of Rio's texts for a week after that.)

Lilia never interacts, and they're not entirely sure she receives the messages, as everyone's phones glitch when they try to check

Agatha leaves them on read

Jen was invited to a beauty event in New York. She brought Billy as her plus one, who proceeded to act as her agent all night, getting her two new brand deals, and a spot on a talk show. She brings him along every time now

To be continued

[21loveatfirstsight]

My ted talk about Rio Vidal

Facts that we can’t or won’t deny:

She is the MCU incarnation of Death.

She is Agatha’s ex (wife).

Now let’s talk about her characteristics and behavior in Agatha All Along.

Episode 1: She shows nothing but love for Agatha when she “visits”.

We now know that Agatha gets a different version of what people say to her, or sometimes none at all or people stays silent but she gets a response in her version, only dialogue with pure, strong emotions come through; so maybe all of Rio’s dialogues are not completely what it seems. I assume all the dialogues about the case is the spelled version, or Agatha self-inserted dialogues to keep her in the “detective” persona; so let’s talk about some that seems out of place or have double meaning, because I think some of it actually get through the spell:

If you want to be in control, you can be + Is this really how you see yourself? Rio is showing support, encouragement, or at least that is how Agatha interprets it.

That’s not why I came over. I think this line got changed a bit to fit the scenario, but it still carries some of Rio’s intention, which is to break Agatha out of Wanda’s spell (to kill, marry, kiss her).

Do you remember why you hate me? This line may get delivered in a different tone in reality (Rio laughing, mockingly says it maybe).

Are you hiding evidence + Well, you’re only lying to yourself. This seems out of place. The reality version could be: are you hiding something from me (thought? Sus af).

These out of place lines show Rio caring about Agatha, or it could mean that’s how Agatha interprets Rio. Nonetheless, if they decided to show Rio’s pov, I will get back to this.

There’s nothing that needs to be said about the morgue scene, except maybe Rio stays and watches her ex-wife put on a show for her, lmao (I need someone to draw her making money rain as Agatha distressingly get out of the spell).

I suspect the painting has something to do with their past. I will wait for more information.

Yes, I know she came at Agatha all stabby stabby after Agatha woke up, but let’s be honest, that could just be how Death expresses love. And her words in this conversation also shows caring and love, it’s only Agatha expressed hatred toward her.

Also, I rewatched episode 1 and now just realize Billy witness all that domestic chaos bet them, yikes (kinda feel lucky that he can’t read their mind, because damn, that’ll definitely be something).

Episode 4: This is the episode that explores their dynamic the most.

Agatha knew Rio doesn’t belong in the coven, she can’t be part of any coven. But to show up in front of her now, she looks extremely angry and upset at Rio.

In the trials, apart from Agatha tricking Rio into saying “get my bodies”, I found 2 interesting exchanges between them.

Agatha told Rio “No”. She knows Rio’s identity, so I think she thinks Rio is here to collect someone’s soul (at the time, it’s “Teen” who she suspects being Nicholas).

Agatha told Rio “You’re too early”. Given the new trailer having Alice look alive and well, with that dialogue, maybe witches won’t die within the trials, everyone will come back at the ends or the last trial and that’s when things go batshit crazy and Lady Death comes to collect “her bodies” (could possible that’s how Agatha and Rio met too).

Now, let’s talk about the moment Billy is injured.

Agatha is panicked and upset, and she is showing it. When she told Rio “Don’t” (take him away again!), Rio changes from silently watching the witches fussing to slightly surprised, and then her eyes look down at Billy, look at Agatha like she is thinking something. She knows who Billy is, and now with how Agatha behaves, she knows Agatha actually thinks he’s Nicholas and cares about him. That can’t be good. So now she has to do what she hates: hurt Agatha, aka telling her the truth, which is like taking Nicholas from Agatha all over again. And what annoying the most is that she is the only one knowing and Agatha will trust with that kind of information.

There is nothing needed to explore about the “She’s my scar” scene, lol. So let’s dissect the hug scene. That hug is Agatha expresses her gratitude to Rio (for not taking her son), Rio takes a moment to enjoy it but she has to stop at the almost-kiss. Because she knows, if they kissed, Agatha will hate her more after she knows Billy’s identity. Better to rip off that band-aid early, right? Rio’s face after is showing that she still dislikes it though.

Episode 5: She is at her best, chaotic evil entity who is in love with Agatha.

I mean, she really enjoys Agatha’s trial at first, because she likes to see strangers trying to torture Agatha (like they possibly can anyway, lol). But the moment Evanora shows up, her demeanor changes. Yes, strangers can hurt Agatha, because they can barely scrape the surface even if they throw everything they have in. And Agatha can do what she does best, trick them into handling over their power, and Rio gets the bodies. Not to mention Rio can see Agatha’s emotions if those witches can poke through the bear (their relationship is so poisoned, i love it). But not the MIL, because Agatha will actually become vulnerable, which Rio won’t absolutely allow. Because that will hit Agatha deep, and that will make her fall, and Rio will lose her.

Also there is a small scene where Agatha climbs out of the trial, Rio’s look and music is kinda strange. Let’s wait to see what they will show us.

I won’t look past how Rio mysteriously disappears whenever the coven is in crisis, maybe being Death, she can’t intervene with what decides the fate of the coven.

[isagrimorie]

I rewatched episode 7 again, Death’s Hand in Mine and I have a sudden, morbid realization.

I’m going to put this under the cut because if I’m right it could be a huge spoiler, but also my theory might depress some people. (Hint: this has nothing to do with Agatha and Rio. Or, no, it has something to do with Rio but it doesn’t have anything to do with her romantic relationship with Agatha).

This has something to do with Lilia’s reading and her possible fate.

Fair warning just in case the spoiler cut doesn’t work.

SPOILER SPACE

——

The Death card doesn’t usually mean the person who gets the card dies. Death means sudden transformation.

But, in Lilia’s case, I think… I think it does mean Lilia is truly dead. Because as they cycle through all the evidence of who Rio is, Lilia’s destination, Lilia’s Road leads right back into the moment where she fell into the Westview tunnel.

This is where Lilia finally comes face to face with Rio’s true form, Death.

I’ve wondered why Rio chose that moment to be face to face with Lilia and (re)introduce herself. I thought one of possibility is that in that gap Lilia actually made a bargain with Death, or something.

And then, I realized, as I re-wound the scene with a sudden heartrending realization.

There is a reason why Death showed up in that cavern.

Because at that moment where Lilia fell… she died.

The Lilia we saw walking the tunnels with Jen, reading her own Tarot card did make a bargain with Death. And Lilia was walking on Borrowed time to help save her coven.

Because time is fluid for Lilia.

I realized this when I rewatched Lilia fall with a sudden, severity and noticed the angle of her head as she hit the ground.

And now Lilia reassuring Billy, ‘We’re cool, baby.’ takes on newer meaning because she forgave him, and she’s sparing him with the truth of her death. Her death, to the rest of the coven, is her sacrifice in the tower.

It’s not the fall caused by a temper tantrum.

And if my theory is true that meant that Rio bent the rules a little because, in the end, she will still get Lilia. Sort of.

For Lilia Calderu Time is an illusion.

Lilia can jump in any point in her life. From the beginning of her classes with her Maestra or any point of her 400 years of life. She can, still jump in time within her own personal time line to live her life or help her coven.

Her present selves won’t thank her future self, because of the memory gaps it will leave her, reeling and confused. Fully in control of her time jumping Lilia though would have fun with it.

Lilia will still die, she will still have that appointment with Death, but to quote one Clara Oswald, she can take that road back to Rio the long way ‘round.

[agathasvidal]

below the cut is a short theory/deep dive into how i believe agatha all along is going to end between agatha and rio. it is inspired by one theory that is doing the rounds, and is the one i originally theorised myself after watching episode six last week, but i wanted to depict the how and the why of why agathario is important to the show, and why i don’t think a ‘final battle’ will be clearly cut between a ‘good’ and ‘bad’ side

like many others, i think it’s reasonable to predict that rio is there to take billy, but she does not actually know who billy is because of the sigil. small things to back this up include:

1. agatha asking rio why she’s there in episode one and rio replying “my job”. agatha is like boom she is here to take someone away, and it can’t be me, and there’s only one new person who’s recently appeared in my life so who the f is this kid why is he important

2. rio saying “did you hide evidence?” to agatha. ironically, someone is being hidden in the closet from her…

3.. rio telling lilia “go on tell them what you saw” in the beginning of episode five. we can infer that rio knows that lilia knows who rio is. perhaps we could go one further, and suggest that rio knows lilia helped hide whoever she is looking for, and is almost taunting lilia in an ‘i really do see it all’ way

3. agatha’s “don’t” to rio in episode four, when teen is injured. it’s obvious, and has been spoken about so much, but i really think this is a moment of confirmation from agatha that rio is there for him, and she needs to beat rio in discovering who he is. it’s confirmation that the two are working against each other, but it is so hidden between their flirtation and tension.

4. there’s been a big debate about why rio would be a witch, whilst she’s also *potentially* death, but i think it was important for the show to portray rio as a witch so the audience know that a sigil would also work on rio, so she cannot discover teen’s identity. why else would they make it such a big deal about sigils only working on witches?

5. the significant of the no. 3 and agatha/rio in the show all hinting at the cycle of life, birth and death: maiden, mother, crone; agatha’s shirt in ep 5; the clocks being on 3.33 when rio arrives in ep 1, the amount of rabbits we’ve seen (3 rabbits/hares represent birth-life-death cycle in christianity and egyptian hieroglyphs)

SO,

to agatha, seeing rio means something is about to be taken away from her. i think that is their entire dynamic within this show, and their entire relationship in general, after the loss of nic. agatha is presented with rio which means she must work out what rio is there to take. that’s why she suspected teen was someone important, because rio was there for either her or teen. teen had to be one of two people. that’s why agatha viscerally protested the idea of coming close to death in the first trial. because she does not want confirmation that rio is there to take this boy from her. she does not even know who he is, but he is important enough for rio to involve herself in agatha’s life once more. he is important enough for rio to go out of her way and resurface old feelings that they both know, the other should not be resurfacing. he is important enough to be seeked out.

by rio taking away billy, she not only repeats her and agatha’s history once more, but she completely takes away the possibility from agatha that she could ever find a way to be reunited with nicky. agatha needs billy, like she needed wanda, to end the quest she’d spent centuries on. rio is not JUST taking another child away from agatha, she is completely breaking the entire, vicious cycle of longing and hope for the son they lost.

i think that rio thinks that is for the best. for her agatha. to stop this endless chase for something rio knows she cannot have. rio is doing it out of love, even though it tears them apart more than anything else ever could. that is the lesson that agatha needs to be taught: the cycle of birth, life and death. (yes i could then start hypothesising about agatha dying, but i think it’s been overdone)

so that is our potential final battle. a battle between death and life. they are made for each other, but that is ultimately what tears them apart. one spends their life bound to defying death, and the other does not get life, but is bound to upholding it.

agatha is Death’s life. but all death can do to life, is take from it. in the end, rio will always be agatha’s death. they have always been doomed.

[helpbutton95]

The Trial of Agatha Harkness

There's a buzzing in her ears, absorbing her mind. Distracting, consuming her senses. She squeezed her eyes tightly shut to focus where she was. What was she doing? Why was she here? She did recognise this place. No. Wait. She did. She knew this place. She blinked away the shrill buzz that filled her mind. Wooden cabinets. Her rundown oven. She was in her kitchen.

Westview. 

She was back in Westview. How? Why?

"Babe? You in here?" Babe? Her brow drew tight. She had never been called Babe in her life. "Have you seen my keys?"

Keys?

"Babe?" There was that stupid, disgusting pet name again. Familiar concerned brown eyes came into view. Scratch that. Rio hadn't been concerned for her in over 500 years. "Ags, you ok?"

No, she was concerned. Oh no. What was happening? Agatha frowned down at herself, a familiar robe covering her body, the same one as before.

"Agatha?" Her own grey eyes snapped up to Rio's. Rio, who had her disgustingly well fitted white shirt rolled to her elbows, black fitted pants that Agatha knew would show the curve of her ass all too well.

"I'm fine," she lied a little too smoothly. Rio's brow was still drawn tight. Agatha held a breath. What the hell was happening? "The keys are in the bowl, in the porch."

Rio nodded, moving closer and Agatha held a breath. "Thanks, I'll see you tonight."

Agatha smiled to add to the charade and Rio matched it, quickly swooping in for the briefest and chaste kiss that she had ever shared with the other woman.

As soon as Rio turned Agatha released a breath. She could do this, whatever this charade was, while she worked out how to get the hell out of here. She pulled the robe tighter. Was she in another Hex? Was Wanda back?

"Billy's going to want to go to the Mall, I've already told him no, he's still grounded after that hospital incident last week and Nicky's been changed!" Rio's call from the front door snapped Agatha from whatever thoughts she'd had. Who the hell was Billy? Nicky?

A baby's gurgle snapped her attention to the living room. Another coo and her heart flew to her throat. No. It wasn't possible. Her hand drew to her locket as she took a tentative step forward. She didn't hear the closing of the front door. Dark lockets of hair framed the baby's head as they sat with a wooden horse in his hand.

No. It couldn't be. He was gone. Her heart thundered in her ears. Stepping closer, he turned to her. His dimpled grin flashed up at her.

"Momum," he gurgled. It was a trick. An awful one. Her deepest fear. But she he looked exactly the same. Temptation rose as her body took her closer. He looked exactly the same. The same dark chestnut locks on his head, the same grey eyes that matched her own. The same button nose.

"Hi," Agatha breathed. She could linger a moment. Settling in front of him, she froze as he crawled to her. Her body reacted on instinct. Lifting him under his arms, and into her lap. Hesitantly, she cradled him as she had when he was a newborn, placed in her arms. He reached up the same way he did and she stared down as he played with her loose hair. Her heart was swelling as he did. The grey eyes were transfixed on her.

She wanted it. She wanted him. She wanted every part of him. A familiar movement overcame her as she reached to sooth his frown. Running her thumb off his small brow.

Grey eyes drooped closed just as they had then. A thunder of footfall had her looking up, instinctively protecting her baby from them.

"I'm going out!" She recognised that voice. Something overcame her then.

"No, you're not."

"What?" Dark hair and drawn brows with far too much eyeliner under his eyes came into view as he rounded the bottom of the stairs.

"I said no."

"I'm fine!"

"I don't care," Agatha huffed. Right, it was coming back to her now. He had fallen running from the cops after being caught with the boyfriend. Impaled himself on some glass. "You are staying here, not only because you are still recovering but because you're so grounded."

"Ugh, you used to be the cool one!"

"Sorry to disappoint," Agatha snapped as he spun on his heel in the most dramatic teenly fashion she hadn't seen in a long time. She watched him stalk back up the stairs as she looked back down at her youngest son with a smile and rocked him gently back and forth in time to a familiar clock. His dimpled cheeks smiling back up at her. He was such a good baby.

She could remember the discussions now, as the memories became clearer. Sitting with her wife as they discussed expanding their family. She was a doctor after all, she knew more about these processes than Agatha. She often described the line she walked between life and death. The way she could give or take if she truly wanted too. She had wanted to give life. Agatha had been feeling empty ever since Billy had turned sixteen. They had worked tirelessly until Agatha fell pregnant and Nicholas was born nine months later. All screams and flailing limbs. But they had survived it all. Happy and content. That was what she had wanted for them.

She felt her heart swell as she looked down at the baby in her arms. Now fast asleep. His little face is peaceful in his sleep. Standing with him cradled in her arms, she moved to the plush chair in the corner and settled.

A familiar hum falling from her lips.

Down, down, down the road,

Down the witches' road

Down, down, down the road

Down the witches' road

Down, down, down the road

Down the witches' road.

Agatha paid no mind to the ticking clock in the corner of the room. This was the life she had always wanted and there was nothing else she could imagine.

Chapter 1, 2...

[consulting-ghosts]

Soo I saw this stills.

We know that Agatha and Jen returned to Westview. Combined with other information it left me really excited and I need to share this.

Read if you want because there will be possible spoilers for the end. 

People die all the time in marvel. It's so overrated. So what if for a change no one does?  Except for Salem Seven, I hope, because they're fuckers and they deserve it. 

On IMDb Jen, Alice and Lilia are all credited that they’ll be in 8 episodes. Which gives me hope. I still think they'll get back to Westview probably at the end of ep 8 and that would leave Agatha and Billy for her trial about Nicholas I believe, like they showed us in promotional photos.

Also Sharon, like mamy people hoped, would be back, because she's supposed to be in 4 eps and she was in 2. 

I still don't know how Rio comments about bodies piling up will be put into this, but I’ll have my hopes. 

I always kind of think that Agatha and maybe Billy together, will bring them back at the end or we will be shown in the last ep, that when they ‘die’ on the road, they actually get back to Westview. 

So, either way I always expected them to be ok at the end. 

Will they reunite them, I'm not sure. It depends if they plan to bring Agatha back in the Vision show. I mean she was in both parts of the trilogy so it makes sense she would be here also. 

We will have to wait and see.

[mswyrr]

They presented the possibility of older women--who were repeatedly described as "covenless witches" in a story that also repeatedly told us a witch needs a coven--finding community again and a new reason to live in each other and their own power and then "subverted our expectations" with these women dying to serve a male character's story.

That was the point of their stories. Him.

It isn't common for older women in US pop culture to get depicted as people who are capable of rebirth. Of lives, desires, hopes and dreams that matter beyond solely being a mother. It rarely happens, and it didn't happen here.

It's rare for stories to deal metaphorically with real things - like women who get clean or make positive change in their 40s or 50s. Women who find each other and aren't alone and "forgotten" anymore. These things happen -- yes, sisterhood is sometimes a lie and sometimes "people never change." Sure, those things happen. But sometimes sisterhood isn't a lie; sometimes people make change in their lives.

You don't see these stories when they're women though, especially not older women, especially not gay women.

I'm glad for Jen. She doesn't have a community, though. A witch needs a coven they told us, over and over again. They showed us them getting one small taste of the joy they could share together, in their scene of flight. But that was just for Billy too. And now everyone else is dead. To serve the male character's journey, give him some angst.

Agatha is forever spiritually dead--not experiencing any kind of emotional breakthrough or change--because she's not the lead, so she's static so she can serve as a device within the true lead's journey.

She can't even be allowed the growth I pictured as the worst case scenario - where she dies for *the coven*--so they can live and have community and spiritual rebirth together--and makes enough peace to go with Rio. She doesn't even get that much, to get to have a real death that matters and has a sense of completion to it, where we can imagine her reunited with her child and/or at peace with Rio. She can't have that because she has to be Billy's amusing sidekick, his Jarvis, his moral warning lesson about his powers and the witches he got killed and his angst. Because his story matters and theirs didn't.

I was talking to a friend the other day about how love stories often have a "point of symbolic death, when all hope seems lost" (concept from Pamela Regis's study of romance novel structure) and with mf couples they get to rise again from that, into rebirth, into new life. Ff canon couples in stories often, due to a bunch of reasons, aren't allowed that narrative power. They remain trapped in tragedy and despair. I thought surely Agatha herself though, as the lead character, would get to have some kind of change or rebirth as part of a community of women, given that her core wound is betrayal by community -- but she, as a character, doesn't get to go into the symbolic underworld and change and be reborn, because she was never the lead character to begin with.

Sapphic love remains broken once it breaks, the "point of symbolic death" is literal death or a shattering end, there is no rebirth. We, I guess, lack the symbolic potency to come back, in the eyes of the world? We are not generative. "Which one's the man?" "How do they even have sex?" "Your marriage isn't real because you can't make babies." (Kudos for subverting that one, though, show! Except... a child born of women, without a man, cannot live a full life I guess?) And specifically, as a 30something queer woman, people who call my wife, after I've described her as my wife, my "girlfriend" and are shocked by how long we've been together. That we're grown women and our commitment is right down to the bone, that it has blood in its veins. We are not little girls playing dress up. But that is how a ton of nice people see us; we exist but we are spiritually empty, lacking potency. And the stories reflect that. That energy, that core belief that we are the juvenile, non-generative form of love and relationships. And this woman too, she remains in a kind of eternal spiritual death.

That's why people are mentioning the Hayes Code, they're feeling how that aligns with larger cultural prejudice against us and our humanity and capacity to have the kind of power of living and loving that is ascribed to mf love and that more (though not always, misogyny is a hell of a thing) straight women get in stories.

The idea that it's GOOD for a story to do this, because "sometimes sisterhood is a lie" and "sometimes people don't change" ignores that context of who precisely this narrative "subversion," this spiritual aridity is given to. And who gets to live and grow and be reborn and strive and learn and become in stories, to be allowed to connect with the transformative potential inside themselves and each other.

The show did give us a lot -- I think it's important to recognize that. The canon ff love; I would have never expected that. The canon kiss. They put a lot into that and I honor that. This wasn't a classic "bury your gays" and I'm not mad at them. They did their best. A lot of the issues I have are probably due to the problems of the mcu overall and how static it is. But the deeper themes are also just incredibly disappointing to me, and I wanted to outline why.

It's entirely possible to be disappointed but appreciate context and not be unkind to creatives who did their best within overall industry/cultural limitations, which is where I am at and what I mean with this.

[ennn]

Initial Agatha All Along Ep 5 Meta Thoughts

Holy FUCK. This episode did not go where I expected it to. Spoiler-y thoughts and theories below:

The Lies We Tell Ourselves

Now I know so many folks are gonna be arguing how awful or evil or deplorable Agatha is for killing Alice. Did she do it on purpose? Or was she not aware or have control as she claims?

On a rewatch (ow my heart) and I guess in Billy’s defense it does seem textually ambiguous. Enough time passes and Agatha seems aware enough of what was happening that you see her lean into the power siphoning — euphoria evident on her face.

And on rewatch, it’s also ambiguous if she had the ability to snap out of it when her son was mentioned or whether it stopped because Alice was fully drained in that moment.

Agatha being possessed means she didn’t initiate this exchange — but something happened in the moment. Was Agatha operating on pure instinct? Like an addict trying to come clean but just had their drug shot into their system? Did she even see Alice or just the power going into her? Did the hunger and euphoria just override her thoughts?

We simply don’t know enough about how Agatha’s ability works. What we do see is Agatha looking distraught after she snaps out of it. She looks taken aback by what she’s done.

Now we know Agatha lies. She lies even to herself sometimes. Agatha lies to survive, for power and to protect herself. She puts on a show when she’s afraid, as Rio points out (more on that in a bit).

Why I think Agatha did not want to kill Alice comes from the scene after, where you see Agatha alone. She’s shaken. She’s not happy about what she’s done and here there’s no audience to put on a mask for.

She definitely reads as sincere trying to defend herself to Billy, although there is the possibility that she is genuinely lying to herself as well, in that she could have chosen on some level to give in to that incredible rush of power, everything else — including herself — be damned. Definitely not the first time we’ve seen the “magic as a drug” analogy.

My Shipper Heart

Okay so we got some delicious food this ep. Agatha and Rio giving each other their brooms all too easily, despite the awkward looks. Agatha flying free and looking at Rio like she’s her North Star, like she’s the one she wants to share this with.

And yes while Rio may seem eager to slit Agatha’s throat (who knows how their no-killing rule works!), she’s also the one who truly understands Agatha at this point.

I’ve mentioned this before but Rio’s arguably the most truthful one of this group. She’s mercurial but she’s honest about who she is and what she wants. And she’s been with Agatha enough to shed light on her truth.

Rio’s the one pointing out whose trial this is, who sees Agatha doing dumb shit as her hiding her very real fear.

And notably we see Rio toss aside her casual detachment and raise her voice for the first time on the show. No. No way!

Power, Grief and Darkness

Look, Billy is going to be a Young Avenger or something so we know he’s gonna go on an arc for the remaining eps but what a juicy one it’ll be, because at least Agatha will be there with him. I’ve suspected he placed the sigil on himself for a while now but I have no idea how aware he is of everything that’s happening.

What’s interesting is how Agatha puts the villainous mask on right after Billy claims to be morally superior. Agatha’s bullshit detector pinged and she digs into that indignation, that anger for strength. Agatha doesn’t like being on the backfoot, certainly not when it comes to feelings like regret.

I see Billy as needing to confront and understand his own darkness, and in doing so understand Agatha’s darkness. Things aren’t so black and white when you’re in pain, and angry at the world, and have the power to lash out.

Agatha is set up to be a mentor to Billy here in a way she couldn’t for Wanda, although the potential was clearly there.

It’s definitely going to be an interesting Road with them going forward, given how dark this ep got.

[a-couple-of-notes]

Many people have already talked about the things that feel off-kilter in this episode--the lack of moons on the door, the aspect ratio not changing, the real quick turnaround from Jen--and I tend to agree. I think there's a good chance this ends up not being what it seems (and Alice hopefully comes back, I love her).

BUT I'm going to operate under the assumption that this was real until proven otherwise. In which case, this was by far the weakest-paced episode, on a macro- and micro-level, but I can sorta see where they're going with it.

Alice tied up her main story last week. I still think they could have found a good narrative past that--what's her identity beyond her mother? She could have leaned into the parallels with Teen, coming into her witchhood. However, in a 9-episode series, I can understand wanting to clear space coming over the halfway mark. So they kill her. Okay, that's a way to do it.

We saw in episode 4 that the coven is capable of true camaraderie and grace toward each other; I can understand the structural instinct to immediately juxtapose that against the selfishness and tension they also carry. Jen's turn was a bit fast, but not totally out of the realm for her character. I don't think she was ever advocating for the coven to kill Agatha (that was Rio), but she has always pointed them toward the most logical, most expeditious solution, with a healthy dose of self-preservation to boot. She shoves everyone out of the way to go down the oven escape route in Ep. 3, she sticks inside the protection circle in Ep. 4, she's always pointing out Agatha and Rio's weird shit. I buy at least the concept that her logical nature, survival instincts, and long-established disdain for Agatha would combine into some version of the attitude we see in Ep. 5.

Billy/Teen could go either way. They've certainly laid the groundwork for the reveal of his identity. His actions are...questionable, but again not out of the realm of possibility for his characterization. Despite what Agatha (seems to?) imply about his manipulations, the episode shows he lashes out after Agatha kills Alice. Not only that, but all the other witches (not just Agatha) move on like nothing happened. Of course he would be angry with all of them! The outburst is emotional, not calculated. I think this was one of the smarter choices in the episode; we've seen that relationship grow in small but consistent ways since Ep. 3. And it lends Alice's death a lot more narrative weight to have a character--y'know, actually care about and change because of it. Sorry, Sharon. (Sidenote: Personally, I'm questioning the song choice at the end credits--like, I get it, big reveal, Wanda Maximoff crown, but the tone and lyrics undermine how much Teen's actions are driven by his friendship with Alice/grief over her death. I don't think sowing doubt over whether he was the villain all along is worth compromising that.)

This is a wild swing of an episode that I don't quite know lands for me, but it's also the halfway point of the show. Maybe none of this is real and all the off-kilter stuff is setting up for something smarter. But if it is real--If they wanted to raise the stakes and shift the tone--this would be the time to do it. (Although I mourn the version of this story where they continued with fun Halloween hijinks, reluctant found family, and toxic gay cosmic entity situationships.) There is a very good chance that the back half of the show justifies and contextualizes the choices in Ep. 5. But without having seen that yet, it's just whiplash.

[wherewisteriaends]

It really took me 24 hours to realize something. It's not that the ending is a bad ending. I mean, take us back a week ago. We all said that their kiss would be the kiss of death. We all predicted that Agatha would sacrifice herself for Teen. We also saw that the Road was it was very probable that Billy or Agatha (turned out both) could have created the road. If we all thought it, that says something and that is this ending made sense. So why are we all so angry ? Because even if it was an ending that made sense, they didn't write it in a way that it would make sense. And I'm not saying we didn't get a redemption arc when we should have. I don't think Agatha should have had a redemption arc. However we should at least have had her accepting Death as the end. And also her bonding with Teen. Because yes she has bonded with him but clearly not the point of choosing to die because he mentions Nicky. Which seriously, this sentence made no sense, gave absolute no explanations. Another major issue is the dynamic between Agatha and Rio. Them in episode 8 has nothing to do with all we saw before. It really feels like something happened that we missed or like the story was different. What they showed us of Nicky was beautiful, also doesn't explain Agatha and Rio dynamic in 8 while 8 makes the conflict all about Nicky. Apart from the grave, the whole scene in Agatha's basement was ridiculous. When Agatha is in Teen house, he doesn't act at all like he wants to kill her. And all of sudden he wants to banish her. I'm serious, they fucked up the relationship dynamics and developments. Same goes for Jennifer. She makes it out of road and she doesn't even search for Teen ? Because that would be the best reaction for someone who just said she wasn't letting anyone die under her watch again and that doesn't know Teen is behind her torture. Again, at the opposite of the development we saw of Jennifer. And Billy, which his portrayal is completely chaotic since episode 6. One time when Agatha comes out of the mud he appears like he wants to see her dead. Then in 8 he trusts her with his life all over again. And don't get me started of the nonsense of Billy in episode 9. And no I'm not a Billy hater, but they certainly write him as an inconstant character that obviously results in him being mistrusted by the viewers. Also what pisses me off is that Lilia's ending was perfect, and even Alice sour departure was beautifully handled. Which adds even more to it the sense of ruin.

And there was strong dialogue, strong acting skills in those two last episodes, beautiful scenes on screen. But it still doesn't make sense. I solemnly thank the actors for their portrayal, I thank the whole production team, makeup, costumes, light, cut, sets, everything because this was by far one of the best MCU projects - if not the best. And I doubt it's someone fault for what happened with the last episodes. SO PLEASE DON'T GO HATING ON PEOPLE. Please, think of your own humanity, and even if media make it very easy to succumb to hate, no one is responsible, no one deserves your hate for their part into the production of a show. What gives me a bit of hope is that they were so much left untold that it is possible we get a season 2 or other projects centered around Agatha or Jennifer or other witches. And because there was so much blur, we, as writer and reader, can see the opportunity to partake into a fiction we all so loved. So don't give up on Agatha All Along just yet and see a bit of the bright side. And because, the MCU ethics seriously should be questioned, wait on me, I will come with an essay down the line. And if I do and if you think it's worth readable, I'll send it to Marvel teams.

[sapphoshands]

okay. as someone who went into the finale not wanting agatha to die, not expecting a positive agatha/rio reconciliation, and not wanting agatha to be redeemed… what could i change about the finale that i would actually like? because the more i think about it, the more i hate the execution but am okay-ish with the outcome. 

(nb this is assuming that the obvious sequel setup goes ahead. if this is the last we see of agatha’s story i will haunt kevin feige for the rest of his natural life and beyond.) 

obvs i do not have access to budget, schedule, other notes, etc. but if i’d come in to these scripts at script stage, this is what i would’ve changed.

ONE. give us more ghosts. a whole bunch of what i really hated here makes more sense if we assume that rio hates ghosts because they’re out of her control (arguably set up but not made explicit). are they souls that escaped rio? give us a ghost in the flashbacks, or another line about them in agatha’s trial. in which case agatha ‘sacrificing’ herself to rio becomes: agatha delivered billy to rio as promised. her vow ended there, not when rio reaped him. so by getting billy to surrender, agatha made it so rio was bound not to see agatha after she died… a loophole agatha could use to escape, again, and endear herself to the boy who can shove free-floating souls back into convenient bodies, making him more subservient to her story. i think we got quite close to this and if (WHEN) we get more story, this is likely to become somewhat explicit. but it needed a bit more on the screen. 

TWO. give us more agatha/rio. not just from a shippy perspective. i think we needed: more establishing of their relationship (why does death love agatha enough to contravene the natural order of things for her?). more work and play: what was it like when it was good (and so fucked up in so many matching-each-other’s-freak ways). more explanation of what it means that rio has been ‘pursuing’ agatha and making her life hell (is this just agatha lashing out?). and frankly, we needed more flashbacks that weren’t just about motherhood. the show did such a good job of presenting us a balanced agatha and then threw that ALL out the window. 

both of these notes, i suspect, were at some point on the page and then were sacrificed to budget or to plaza’s schedule. fuck u megalopolis. 

TWO POINT FIVE. also, i would’ve added at least one flashback kiss. not just because we deserve it. but because i do not love lesbian bed death kiss and having another kiss would’ve mitigated that a LOT. that said, i do appreciate that they made sure to have more than one queer kiss in the show, at least. 

THREE. move nicky closer to the modern day. i get that this was to establish the ballad as long ago as possible, but the idea that rio and agatha had like… a normal human lifespan of love and then nearly three centuries of antagonism… isn’t sold in the rest of the story. this is probably my most fanfic rather than functional note. but even a 1790s ballad would’ve given agatha a good long history and given them a much deeper relationship. 

??? the thing i don’t know how to square is the darkhold red herring. i don’t mind that agatha’s deep dark secret is that she couldn’t save her son in a quite simple human way. but this still feels like a flapping loose end rather than a purposeful misdirect. why did the darkhold shield agatha from rio? is that why she sought it out? why did rio come hunting for agatha in the first place? 

also: still not sure about agatha’s control over her power and how that was/wasn’t voluntary. a more minor point but it would’ve been interesting to have that teased out a bit more. 

things i do love: the ballad being agatha’s. the road being billy’s. everything about agatha harkness. everything. agatha harkness, ghost troll learning to love objects and appear through walls. a future of death chasing her undead lover?? the practical sets. so many wonderful witchy women. the queerness of it ALL.

so we’re really not in a terrible place to keep going. if we’d had more of agatha’s manipulations and more of the backstory, i would feel so much less like this show took a sharp pivot in its endgame and we still could’ve ended up more or less here. and going through this process makes me feel a bit better because i can see the promise now. but i definitely also see where we missed out.

[chronicsydspams]

I disagree with most people about the Agatha All Along finale and Loved the fact that the road was all in Billy's head, that the road was never real and that Agatha used the "I'm the only survivor of the Witches Road" schtick to trick Witches into stealing their magic, because she was just as surprised when a road Actually showed up. But Billy was so desperate in finding Tommy that he did Exactly what Wanda did, he made the road in his head, and others suffered because of his actions. Much like how Wanda was so desperate in her grief of Vision that she created the Hex, and others suffered as a result. "You're so much like your mother" as Agatha says...

Are there some questions that I have post finale? Sure, like how did Agatha get actually get her hands on the Darkhold? Was her plans in using the Darkhold to try and get Nicolas back? Will Agatha try to put things right with Nicolas in the afterlife or will she forever try to avoid him? and probably more that I can't think of at the moment.

It also seems that no one knows what a "cliffhanger" is anymore, because there really seems to be the possibility of another season and With that the show would leave the audience With questions that they would answer at another time, When they have more story to tell, not everything has to be answered all at once.

Also, WHY do fans need shit Spoon-fed to them?! "How was Agatha pregnant with Nicolas?" she had SEX! "He was made from scratch" meaning the Traditional way of having a kid, she and some rando off screed got it on and she got pregnant, she can't create reality out of nothing like Wanda can, this is pretty straight forward thinking people! Also Nicolas was Supposed to die at birth, he was supposed to be a stillborn but Agatha begged with Rio for more time, which Rio granted her, and was there when his time was up.

I was Never expecting Wanda to come back, Especially after the show told us that Billy's purpose of "The Road" was to find Tommy and Not Wanda. And I think a good chunk of these fans are just salty Wanda stans that are mad she didn't come back.

People were also pissy about Billy having focus despite us being LITERALLY TOLD this is Just as much Billy's story as it is Agatha's. "I wanted more Salem!" why? Wandavision already showed us what we needed to know, that her mother and the rest of the coven tried to kill her because she steals magic, that's all we needed to know. Just say you wanted Agatha and Rio to bang and be off already like damn...

I honestly can't Wait to see what the future holds for Wiccan and what projects they have in store for him, especially if they're going to be paralleling the comics like this.

[ellestra]

Even the Evil Witch loved her son

The moment I realised the song was just something Nicky made with the help of his mum (Agathe truly is the source of all Witch lore, isn't she?) it all started falling into place. I knew what was going to happen to that first witch who asked her about The Road because this is exactly what she was trying to do at the beginning. Just provoke the witches to blast her with their power so she could steal it.

The montage still helped to understand what Agatha knew and when she knew it. And since she knew The Witches Road was never real she also knew there was some very powerful magic involved when it actually appeared. Reality altering one. So of course she figured out who Billy was. It only took a while because when she last met him he wasn't real. But maybe that made him the realest to Agatha because he made himself real.

And of course that what makes Rio so aggravated. She is cycle of life and he is not part of it. Made of magic and never really born and can't truly die. And then he take William Kaplan's death away from her too. And one more kid too. Boys die sometimes and Death doesn't like when they also continue to live. But for Agatha this is exactly the kind of "fuck you" she wanted to give to Rio.

I love that the show didn't try to make Agatha a good person. This wasn't a redemption story. She hasn't changed. She doesn't care about other people. She kills other witches and doesn't even bother to remember normal people (neither Sharon Davis nor Tommy's names stick to her mind). She just has this one weak spot because she loved unconditionally and selflessly once. And Billy kind of fits into that hole. Even if she hates showing him that.

She resents him because he survived when Nicholas couldn't. Because he is just as his mother who defeated and bound her and actually has power to hurt her. And because her son was exact opposite - she didn't use any magic to make him and that's all that Billy was.

But she cares because Billy is everything Agatha wanted her son to be when he grew up. And because she sees herself in him. Someone who was cursed with power so great it ends up hurting those around him even when he doesn't mean it. Someone who was failed by his own mother because she didn't understand what she created. And just like her he doesn't give up. He fights to live when all the odds are stocked against him. Even if that means death.

I still am not sure what planting that dandelion seed was supposed to accomplish. Except for being a metaphor on Nicky's ephemeral life gone too soon. But I loved Rio telling her the truth Lillia understood - you can't escape death. It will always come, it's only a question of time. No matter if it's just a few short years or centuries. In the end Agatha understood it too and went to the other side. Where she no longer has to worry about Death following her. She has her rebirth as something new.

Agatha once offered Wanda to be her teacher but there was too many possible double crosses in that offer. And Wanda couldn't admit to herself she was a bad guy too. I loved that the season kept reminding us how horrific what she did to people of Westview was. Good intention is what read to hell is paved with.

That this level of power is not something that can be wielded safely. Believing you have full control over it is the fastest way to lose it. And it so easy to justify to yourself that you only did what was necessary. That you didn't mean it. And it's OK. And then it's so hard to stop. Wanda almost didn't.

Billy already knows what it means to kill his own coven for a made up story. Just because he wanted it to be real so much. And maybe it is better to learn on other people's mistakes. Even if your teacher is the Evil Witch.