#and if I need to explain why this biphobic in the first place I will scream into a wall
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Yes it is very biphobic of you if the reason you visceraly hate a headcanon of a character being Bi is rooted in the fact that they have a competing 'het' ship against your queer one. 🙂
Happy Pride Month! 💙💜🩷
#this just in#if a bisexual person dates someone of the opposite sex#they are in fact#still queer#imagine that#and look you can have other VALID reasons for not preferring a bi headcanon#there's tons of reasons#but this one ^ is more popular than it fucking should be#and some people will swear this isn't the reason why they hate the headcanon#and then proceed to be very obvious that's not true#and if I need to explain why this biphobic in the first place I will scream into a wall#sam rants#eddie munson#mike wheeler#richie tozier#hitting the wasps nest today#also this says nothing to what ship I even prefer these characters with#but they have no confirmed sexualitys#and people can ship a queer a ship with them and headcannon them bi and will STILL receive biphobic backlash#it's insane#stranger things#it 2017
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Okay because clearly I am still upset about this.
April 23:
To Spn Con Audience: “By show of force: how many of you would consider yourself introverts?" How many extroverts? And how many bisexuals?” “I’m all three.”
April 25:
“I want to deeply apologize for misspeaking this weekend...“My clumsy intention was to wave off actually discussing my sexuality, but I badly fumbled that and [I] understand that was seen as me coming out as bisexual.”
THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Misha did not need to "wave off actually discussing [his] sexuality." He brought it up himself. He is literally just speaking at a podium, and of his own accord, announces that he is Extroverted, Introverted, and Bisexual. That is a pre-planned, pre-written statement if I have EVER heard one!!! Literally like... bisexual doesn't even make sense in that list? Its clearly a joke so he can come out in a funny way?
Like what argments even exist that can possibly explain what he meant if not "he is Extroverted, Introverted, and Bisexual"? Do you think he just stupidly thought bisexual was a word for both extroverted and introverted? Because that seems fucking impossible!!!
Why would bisexuals be in that list? Also, hes asking the crowd, meaning he literally does not need to say that he is ANY of them!! The whole and only point of asking was so that he could announce that he was bisexual!!! That is the only reason to do this little song and dance audience interaction in the first place!!
I mean, its not like he asked "How many straights? How many gays? How many bisexuals?" And then he felt weird and said "I’m all three!" That could sound more like a natural conversation topic that ended with him making an awkward joke that he thought was nonsense and actually made him sound bisexual. But he obviously did not say or intend to say that, I’m just writing fucking fanfiction to try and make any of this make sense!
Like seriously, there is no way to interpret the actions of April 23 than an authentic coming out of a bisexual actor. I cannot fathom any other interpretation. It is not a mis-speak? What was he trying to say if not that? Please, give me any crazy theory you have, I’m begging, because I have nothing.
And that brings me to April 25.
I really don't see how to interpret the combination of these actions as anything other than biphobic. Either one (1.), he thought it was appropriate to joke about coming out as bisexual, and pretend that it was real for two days, or two (2.), his statement on April 25 was a lie, he did mean to come out, and was forced, by either internalized or externalized biphobia, back into the closet.
1., I think, is overtly biphobic, because intentionally deceiving people into thinking you have come out for multiple days, using that to gain attention and therefore money, making coming out and bisexuality seem like the butt of a joke, like.
Fuck I’m just feeling again how fucking CONFUSING this shit is! There is no logical way to interpret it!!!
Occam's Razor honestly, 1. Doesn't make sense its too weird and confusing for his statement on April 23 to be a joke, lie, or misspeak.... it doesn't compute...
2. Internalized or externalized biphobia forced him back into the closet.
Honestly this is the only thing that actually makes any sense to me. Whatever has been forcing/convincing him to stay in the closet for decades forced/convinced him to walk it back (poorly).
I honestly honestly hate to do this because I really try to take people at their word as much as possible. I give people the benefit of the doubt. And ESPECIALLY when it comes to sexuality. I really believe that we must defer to what they call themselves, because even if they will change their minds one day, I believe that questioning them or invalidating how they define themselves in the moment does more harm than good. Or, in simpler terms, I think that people getting constantly questioned about their sexuality usually makes it harder for them to figure it out themselves.
But also. This is a middle aged man, a public and loud supporter of queer people, and he knows he not only has a specific presence within that community, he knows what his fans *think* about his sexuality. (Whether or not the fans are problematic for that is a matter for a different time.) So forgive me if I feel I should hold him to a higher standard when he makes statements regarding his sexuality.
But this isn't a high standard.
The incredibly low bar he couldn't manage to cross?
Don't authentically come out and then take it back two days later
I didn't even think I had to make a fucking bar for that!!!
It's genuinely so hard to even wrap my mind around what the fuck happened here! What is he claiming happened? "Misspeak"?!?!
Okay. I’m sorry. It's so hard to be clear on this issue because it just genuinely doesn't make sense. But I hope I made it a slightly bit more clear why it doesn't make sense? And seriously, I need answers. At least give me a better lie so I can sleep better at night.
I would really care so little if he was bisexual if it wasnt for the fact that he SAID HE WAS ffs I’m out I hope he and his wife and kids are very happy
#I have not watched or posted or cared about Misha or spn in over a decade#other than this confusing catastrophe#like ive never watched anything from Dream but if he did this#id be pissed off too#and he doesnt have the age or history of misha#sorry for bringing up dream he just popped into my mind as a modern tumblr example#anyway#yeah its just the incredibly confusing nature of this captivates me#I saw another post about this and so many feelings were brought up I guess I had to make a post about it#please engage with me about this but please be nice#misha collins#misha collins bisexual#misha collins sexuality#biphobia#biphobic#bisexual#sexuality
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I truly can't believe I'm having to address this again but I'm not going to be quiet about it. The last time this happened (nearly 6 months! Of repetitive biphobic posts AND asks being sent to writers/artists some of who ARE bisexual!) it contributed to keeping me off Tumblr/fandom specifically because it was becoming very pervasive for these types of comments to be made in my area. I ended up being gone for roughly ~9 months solely because of the biphobic/homophobic comments that were being made.
1. Commenting on a fic characters sexuality to say that you can't see them as *insert label* adds nothing of value, distracts from the fic itself, and minimizes the value of having an LGBTQ character. It hurts LGBTQ people who read these fics because we are already starved for LGBTQ content and now people that we interact with in our fandom are questioning our existence, again, in fiction! Which truly should be a safe space for exploration of sexuality. Please, before you comment, ask yourself, why do I need to say something about this characters sexuality? Is it a positive thing? If it's not, then shush! The fic isn't for you! That's ok! Especially when it is a gift from one fan to another. You're degrading what someone else likes. There are literally millions of fics with heterosexuals.
2. Putting any sort of laughing emoji with a comment rejecting a character being *insert label* is at best annoying to the writer and at worst public prejudice that you are subjecting people of that community to. You are hurting people with your words, I don't know why we are still having to explain in 2022, after 3 years of majorly internet based interactions, that what you do online everyone can see and it affects them just as if you said it out loud in a classroom, a meeting, or meeting someone for the first time. You can think whatever you want, that doesn't mean your thought needs to be said/typed for all to hear/see. You can read, not enjoy, click away and move on. Not every thought we have needs to be shared. Before you say something T.H.I.N.K. Is it...
True?
Helpful?
Inspiring?
Necessary?
Kind?
3. Following up a comment with "I'm not trying to be rude" means you know, in fact, that what you're saying is a rude and impolite thing to say to someone. It doesn't matter if that someone is the writer or anyone else in society. What you've said is not good! Not ok! Period. Stop doing it. Why are you wasting your energy on perpetuating harm? Why are you continuing to do things that harm others? Even if it's just one person in your fandom. Y'all wanna talk about peace on earth? Then fucking be about! Treat your community with dignity and respect. You can't pick and choose who you afford it to. It's all or none.
4. Making an assumption about why a writer chose to use a specific sexuality is ignorant. There is a vast array of reasons why a writer chooses certain details. Age old phrasing, what happens when you ass/u/me, yadda yadda. Really, truly, you look like an ass when you say things like "just because xyz doesn't mean they are LGBT!!!!" If you're actually curious ask the writer directly, what made you choose this for this fic? Do not ask them unless you're truly curious. A writers choice for their fic is not up for debate. Don't like, don't read. Read it and didn't like, click away. Writers don't want your interaction if you're going to ass/u/me.
That's it. That's the post. Unpack your homophobia + biphobia. Queer people don't need to be reminded in their fun place of how much the world detests their existence.
#because apparently we need to discuss this again#fandom#fandoms#fanfiction#feminism#lgbtq#lgbtq representation#fanfiction etiquette#bisexuality#biphobia#biphobic#homophobia#thg#hunger games#the hunger games#peeta mellark#katniss everdeen
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mx sokkagatekeeper i need your help
my best friends doesn’t really see zuko gay and i don’t know how to analyse this to her (we often analyse text and share opinions) because i’m not good with words. i know his homosexuality is in the text and i’ve always seen him as gay so to me it’s actually canon
i don’t want to impose my opinion but i don’t seem to explain it like the topic deserves.
pls help me
i apologize for the delay on answering this ask!! i wanted to gather the most analysis i could in one post (and also had to eventually come to terms with the fact that i can’t gather literally all the evidence in one post; there is simply too much) since ppl are always like “where’s the essay?” well here. here is the essay, and you (your friend?) gave me the perfect excuse to do so without seeming more obnoxious than usual. so! i wrote a little thing that didn’t go as in-depth as it could go but is clear enough here, and i also dance a little around the subject of zuko and his problem with gender expectations here. i will probably copy-paste the entire paragraph that’s relevant to this analysis later so you don’t have to read it but. it’s a good post imo. anyway!!
before i begin i just want to say that (despite my url) this is not to #gatekeep or whatever. but tumblr does love to talk about how no atla character's sexuality is confirmed, and how claiming that zuko is bisexual or any other variation is not homophobic, and how zuko was written as being attracted to women on-screen. and they are right, in a way; reading zuko as bisexual is not homophobic... but merely, in my opinion, incorrect. and, on the flip side, making an analysis on why zuko is gay is also not inherently biphobic. and one can assume that i'm unlikely to make a biphobic analysis since i am. a bisexual person.
another note: i don’t think anybody who reads zuko as gay is delusional enough to genuinely believe the creators intended to code him as queer, when the author’s interpretation contradicts and/or takes away from the quality of the text, authorial intent is not that relevant to the best possible reading of it. in my opinion of course!
now. to make a queer reading of a character (and i mean reading of the text, which is not the same as a headcanon) one may take into account: what the themes the character portrays are; what their character arc is about; allegories; character development; struggles; stakes and expectations from the society they live in; as well as other pieces of dialogue or details and allegories that are reminiscent of the queer experience. in this post, i will try to gather a bunch of all these aspects of the narratives, themes, etc etc in an attempt to open the anon's friend's eyes to the revelation that is the gay zuko agenda.
also, like with all interpretations, this is not exactly me trying to “prove” that zuko is gay. he isn't gay; he's fictional. rather, i am explaining why i find this interpretation of his sexuality to be far more compelling than any other.
zuko’s coming out arc.
zuko’s arc has several layers. the two main that i can pinpoint are him unlearning the fire nation's imperialist values, and learning that the abuse he suffered was just that, abuse. that it was wrong. but as is often seen in the themes atla presents, what often presents to be two different things have an aspect of unity, that they depend on each other in order to exist. these two aspects of zuko’s redemption accompany each other throughout. the reason why zuko (and azula) was abused in the first place is because of the fire nation’s imperialism; the degree of the abuse zuko suffered and the things he was punished for are a direct effect of the fire nation’s patriarchal society and its constrictions regarding gender. ozai wasn't just any evil father, he was the embodiment of the entire fire nation and its fucked-up values.
zuko is kicked out of his home, mostly for being compassionate, and for letting his compassion take charge of him rather than respecting the piece of etiquette that he was not allowed to speak in the war room. the fire nation is known to be against what it deems as weak, which happens to be anything that has to do with empathy and compassion, sensitivity and gentleness—anything that fits their idea of femininity. zuko is known to present these qualities the fire nation perceives as feminine and weak (especially in comparison to azula), and his father has little trouble sending him away in order to favor his stronger, smarter, ruthless, masculine, “flawless” daughter. zuko is taken by his uncle whom his father is ashamed of, spending years chasing the unattainable idea of finding the avatar and regaining his honor, while he develops a tendency to overperform aggressiveness (zuko’s trauma in itself makes him defensive, not inherently aggressive), and trying to suppress every possible weakness he may have to the rest of the world and himself.
so, in that sense, zuko's redemption arc is not just about him going from bad to good, but it is also about overcoming, unlearning, and un-internalizing homophobia (& misogyny) and all the expectations and constraints that surround masculinity. it's about achieving liberation from his homophobic abusive homelife and finding acceptance in a group of people who accept him for what he is (with his compassion and kindness and emotional expressiveness... and also for being gay). it's about achieving also self-realization and forgiveness. all of this reads as a coming-out narrative thru unintentional allegories all around. zuko's character arc is not explicitly about being gay, but its themes make it so that it can be read as a queer story, and in my opinion, it achieves a greater emotional impact if it is read as such.
zuko’s gender problems. (may or may not copied this from one of the posts i’ve made before lol i just wanted to have it all in one place <3 ok keep reading now)
despite all the suffering and abuse he endured, zuko grew up shaped by the privileges surrounding royalty and the upper class in general. his arc is about humbling him and understand the value in the lives of the poor and marginalized as much as it is about his very own self-realization and asserting he was wronged and treated unfairly by his family over and over. zuko comes from a place of privilege, but he is still highly empathetic and has a certain ease at unlearning his privilege (more ease than azula at least) once he is exposed to the world in its entirety rather than the blatant lies that were presented to him by the fire nation that he had no way of disproving. zuko is compassionate and empathetic despite being stubborn as hell because while growing up in privilege he still experienced certain marginalizations because of his blatant learning disabilities, and his gender presentation.
the fire nation’s society is ruled by militarism, imperialism, and patriarchy. it values what are considered masculine traits and qualities (leadership, cold-thinking, self-control yet ruthlessness, strategy, emotional suppressing) above humanity, identity, personhood and femininity. the fact that the actual societies in real life that inspired the fire nation may not hold the same values is very likely, since this is a very western perspective, but this is what appears in the text, and the way it’s meant to be read.
so shown as a child and heavily hinted at throughout the show, zuko is deeply, loudly feminine in a way that other people can blatantly see and judge him based on it. his self-realization involves breaking free of this pressure he has on his back to be “more of a man” than his personality allows him to. he overperforms a lot of his aggressiveness – the part of it that isn’t born out of his rage, that is – and he lets his anger flow. he is certainly masculine in a fair amount of aspects, but many of his core traits are (in western society, yes, and within the show) associated with femininity, such as emotional expressiveness, empathy and compassion, gentleness, and kindness. femininity is perceived as weak, and zuko is therefore perceived as weak for displaying these traits from an early age and especially in contrast to azula, who by contrast displays many of the “masculine” traits mentioned above (albeit the feminine qualities she chooses to display is what makes her perfectionism — she can be feminine, but in a masculine way, it’s messy and it leads her to a mental breakdown we all know this part).
zuko doesn’t fit at all into the ideal of cold, detached version of masculinity that the fire nation preaches, which is what deteriorated his self-esteem and drove him to overperform his traditionally masculine traits out of desperation such as his commanding stance or getting really good at fighting people, or even as small as being stiff as hell when he wants to show vulnerability or show affection even towards his uncle. he did all of this in order to try and fit better into the mold of the man people told him he should be. but no matter how hard zuko worked to repress that core, fundamental part of himself over the course of the series, he was never able to stick to a cold, ruthless, detached mindset, or stick to the constrictions of masculinity like he is expected to as a prince and as a man. he’s always intentionally and unintentionally working towards being better, and struggles to suppress the softer parts of him constantly.
zuko’s relationship with mai (also known as ‘mai is a lesbian’).
it is no secret that zuko and mai’s relationship is a dysfunctional one. on the surface this is because of zuko’s inability (or lack of will, who’s to say) to understand mai as a person with feelings and thoughts and a life rather than a girlfriend. and while this is true, it is also true that mai was not able to be the person zuko needed at that particular moment in his life, as a girlfriend, friend or otherwise. they both feel trapped, restricted, and misunderstood by the respective expectations placed on them, by their families and the structure of the systematic power they later choose to go against, and the threats that will follow through if they don’t fulfill these expectations. they also project the worst parts of their respective struggles with the power structure of society on each other. their relationship throughout book three rings very true and up until they get back together for some reason.
regarding zuko’s character specifically, his inability to see mai as anything other than “girlfriend” rather than a person comes from the prospect of the term “girlfriend” is part of the oppression he faces back at the fire nation, rather than mai being a constricting and oppressive person herself (which she is not). their relationship to me reads very much like a lavender marriage, as this post very well puts it.
other miscellaneous gay shit <3
there are a lot of little gay moments that zuko has throughout the show. for example, he never cares when pretty girls are attracted to him or flirting with him, including jin and ty lee. his reaction to learning that sokka has a girlfriend is also. interesting. and of course, his reaction to being set up with mai when they were children is to scream “girls are crazy!”. hmm
the blue spirit is a gay thing like, thematically.
so uh. qed. zuko gay!
my (nour) personal favorite Zuko Moment is in the firebending masters when he stands and watches the rainbow fire surround him and he says, very softly and with feeling, ‘i understand’ which is where our beloved i understand tag comes from. as this post very well explains its significance, “(...) zuko has lived his whole life associating firebending with rage and power and violence, so when he lets go of rage and power and violence, he loses his ability to firebend. and this cannot be separated from the fire nation's (and therefore zuko's) views on masculinity; in the fire nation, fire bending is masculinity is aggression, and part of why zuko cared so much about being a powerful firebender is to prove that he was enough of a man. so, learning the sun warriors' form of firebending, which is based in warmth and love, also allows zuko (who is NOT STRAIGHT) to redefine his masculinity. (plus...... yknow.... the fire is rainbow..........)”
#ZUKO GAY (THEMATICALLY RELEVANT)#zuko#analysis#anon#asks#n#s#collaboration <3#*#gping to post this finally <33 i had forgotten abt it tbh#sorry this took the better part of a year fnjdjsjaka#hope you were able go convince ur friend in that time 👍#also i hope u guys can tell how much fun we had collecting oh so so so many links#it's excessive i know#oh also one more thing is that stay soft is abt how zuko is gay. in my head that's what it's abt -s
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this post was long overdue, but anyways - funny, isn't it, how bisexual sapphics on twitter are forbidden to use the double venus symbol (⚢) or for bisexual mlm, the double mars symbol (⚣), but the monosexuals have absolutely no issue with us using the intertwined venus & mars symbol (⚤) to represent only one "half" of our sexuality (aka the "bihet" side) "as a solution" to there being no unicode symbol for either double mars & double venus together, or a blank circle symbol intertwined with one of each?
and i get that their conscious logic here is probably, "well those are the genders you'd date so!! you can use it!!", but it's so obviously inconsistent with the purpose they assign for their own gay symbols, as those ones include a representation of themselves. so, following that logic, the m/f symbol must include the bisexual individual, therefore making it symbolic of a straight relationship.
it's almost like they just want to gatekeep a symbol from us because they're biphobic, hate bisexuals celebrating their pride, and want to make sure we don't have anything for ourselves that they can't have too (but don't forget that most sapphic things are supposed to be lesbian-exclusive first, unless approved by them!!) 🤔
of course, we shouldn't be stopping bisexuals in straight relationships from using the v/m symbol if they want to. it wouldn't make them any less inherently lgBt, y'know? but even then they have a right to the d/v or d/m if they wish to put emphasis on their similar-gender-attraction pride (regardless of relationship status or with whom). and... y'know... also when they're dating someone of the same gender/sex. but that's the main point of the post, so mentioning it is redundant.
i never even got it in the first place anyway, just because these symbols represent (potential or current) relationship status and not... sexuality? like, a venus symbol represents a female person, not an asexual female, yeah? double venus represents a female of any sexuality in a relationship with a female of any sexuality, same goes for double mars, and same goes for one venus intertwined with one mars.
the REASON WHY we don't have the symbols shown below (cause logically, we'd need two) as a unicode, is because it represents sexuality, not relationship status. at least, that's what i can assume/conclude. but that isn't to say that it wouldn't be nice to have it anyway - even then though, we still have a right to the "gay/monosexual only" symbols. i shouldn't have to explain it, but i did.
i'm basing all of this around sex, by the way, mainly because we're most likely never gonna get each and every one of the popular nonbinary gender symbols at all ever, among other reasons that i won't dive into past "sexuality is based on sex and the only people in a relationship would be those who are biologically male or female (AMAB or AFAB) as their are no other options for the human species."
so... yeah. stop gatekeeping these symbols. if you do that, i outright hate you, and i want you to know that you're not just biphobic and selfish, but stupid. outright stupid. you are not intelligent. you lack common sense and critical thinking skills. your argument is baseless. not sorry xo
#if you start coming at me with 'that's terf rhetoric' i want you to think critically about what i mean by it and then stfu#especially considering i'm nonbinary and i actually mentioned the ideal wish to have every gender symbol in the book#i don't think any terf would even be slightly open to that in good faith#so yeah#but anyways#gatekeeping#gatekeeping discourse#lgbt discourse#discourse#lgbt symbols#lesbian symbol#gay symbol#double venus#double mars#⚢#⚣#⚤#bisexual#bi sapphic#bihet#pridecat rants
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so coming back to this post where i stated that my early days of bi pride were around the ages of 12-13 and how lucky i was that i never saw anything that could snap that vulnerability in half like i do now, i kind of wanna talk about a similar process from when i first discovered i could be nonbinary at 15. back then i used to think it was this sacred thing that you had to "qualify" for and i never realized until about a year or so of experience in that i could really be anything i want. so until then, i clung tightly to being a she/they nonbinary demigirl because i hadn't even heard of everything else yet and figured if i had, i wasn't good enough to use anything beyond a basic label - which is ironic, because the only reason i got to that point in the first place was after reading all these positivity carrds that encouraged nonbinary people to accept themselves and insisted they could use whatever labels and pronouns they wanted. oh well, i digress.
something that's really super important to note for the time being before i get into my point, was that i was still first questioning whether i was a lesbian or "just" bi - yes, that internalized biphobia goes a long way back for most of us, unfortunately. at this very moment in time, i was starting to lean towards accepting bisexuality. i did try on the lesbian label for about a year not too long later, but that was, again, later.
so, in other words, i was your stereotypical she/they bisexual demigirl. the "cishets" of both the LGB and T communities, although i didn't realize that's how i would be seen for years.
now that i got my backstory out of the way, i think now it will make a little more sense why i'm advocating for those "she/they bi girls" jokes to stop, in addition to the "bi girls with boyfriends." it's not just biphobic, it's misogynistic and it can do some real psychic damage to younger bi sapphics. i probably would have been one of them had i been exposed to them during that time.
i mean, hell, i think this anon that i myself sent & response that took place on curiouscat back in march explain it all the best:
[ID: a screenshot of a curiouscat submission. the anonymous message reads: "confession: i stopped using she/they a while back PRIMARILY just to avoid the hated misogynistic cis bi girl stereotype. i'm not cis but i'm sure i wouldn't be considered trans enough to be valid if i was a she/they. i guess it worked out because i don't really like they/them pronouns for myself anyway (i'm now a he/she), but i wish i hadn't felt pressured in order to be taken seriously. :/" following that paragraph, bizexuaiity responds: "i'm so sorry you've felt pressured and invalid in your previous pronouns :( that stereotype is bimisogynistic & disgusting and i really never liked these jokes or put up with them from anyone. never thought they were funny and i think she/they trans people are 100% valid. it's stupid because a LOT of trans people who use this pronoun set are TMA, as well. someone using she/her pronouns doesn't equate to cis woman and idk why many people act like that. even if you're AFAB it does not matter because it doesn't make you ANY less trans. you absolutely do not need to do anything extra to validate your transness, your existence is enough. you will be taken seriously by people who love and care about you. i hope you feel better about yourself by now."
like, this shit affects us negatively and for things that aren't even really our fault, let alone bad in any way at all. it's pretty much what i said in the first post i linked here, stop bullying bi women. it's not funny and it never has been. you can say whatever you like about how i never had it hard back then because i didn't, but i could have and many others have and still do. even i do now sometimes. so QUIT IT.
#chase.txt#biphobia#bimisogyny#bi girls#bi women#cis bi girls#she/they bi girls#she/they#they/she#bi demigirl#demigirl#nonbinary#bisexual#bi stereotypes#internalized biphobia
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Ok, I don't tend to make posts like this but I’m too frustrated because I see it time after time on this hellsite.
Complaining on a bi person’s post saying: “ugh not this pan is biphobic discourse again 🙄 just accept both labels are valid and move on” is not the hot take you think it is.
Outright DENYING that the pan label was ever biphobic or transphobic in the first place is so wild and I’ve been seeing that crop up more often.
The history of both terms is complicated - but generally as we know it, both these terms were initially coined by cishet people in a way to shun, denounce, medicalize and demonize people.
But the term pansexual as it became widely known as part of the LGBTI+ community, both online and offline… was undeniably spread as the more “inclusive version” of bisexuality. Not only did people misunderstand bi history, but it added to the oversexualized stigma we face from both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. “Hearts not parts” was a terrible phrase that demonstrated this aspect (also kind of implied gays and lesbians are... only attracted to parts as well which. i don't need to say why that's wrong).
People thankfully realized how a lot of pan people were spreading transphobic rhetoric in regards to trans binary people, however the idea that pan people were attracted to nonbinary folks and bi people were not was still quite widespread and honestly still is.
Of course, thankfully some people realized that wasn’t the case at all and that’s where the “regardless of gender” and the idea of pan as a microlabel of a broader umbrella became more accepted. However, let’s not act as if that definition is widely known yet. A lot of people still think of pan by those former definitions… and by virtue of that, are spreading transphobic and biphobic rhetoric.
If you want proof of that, read this excerpt from an article that lists off how people in the media/internet describe the pan label from the 1970s and to as late as 2020:
June 18, 2020: “Madison [Bailey] proceeds to explain that a pansexual person can be attracted to all different kinds of people, including ‘girls, boys, trans girls, trans boys, and nonbinary babies’. The term pansexual is viewed as being much more inclusive than ‘bisexual’, because it does not assume that a person is only attracted to men or women, but also those who don’t identify with a specific gender.”
Now, not all of this is Madison Bailey's direct quote, it's only after ''nonbinary babies'' where the writer of the article steps in with the definition... but that doesn't mean that Madison's quote is not very telling. Besides, the article where this quote was referenced has so much more, it just goes to show that in 2020, people still spread the same definition of pan being the more ''inclusive'' of the two labels. Here's the link:
I hope I don't need to say it but that quote sounds... terrible. As a nonbinary person, being called a 'baby' is so infantilizing, even if the intent is to be 'inclusive' and... just 'cute' I guess? As if nonbinary people don't get infantilized enough. And why did she need to specify 'trans girls and trans boys' from 'girls and boys'? This was last year, so don't go telling me and others we're just being 'panphobic' when this transphobic and biphobic crap is genuinely what some pan people still say.
This is why it’s so infuriating to see pan people on this site just yell “panphobia!” at a bi person just calmly expressing the fact that some bi people (specially trans/nonbinary bi folks) may feel uncomfortable with the term and telling pan people to be aware of its history and not spread more harmful ideas.
So you can see how responding to that as if someone is attacking the pan label as a whole and vehemently denying that the term had transphobic and biphobic history… comes off as extremely tone deaf, stubbornly ignorant and incredibly dismissive of bi people’s voices.
While there’s some bi people that are against the pan label, that doesn’t mean all bi people want it gone. We just don’t want further misinformation to spread, but it KEEPS being spread and it won’t be solved if pan people have a kneejerk reaction and keep shutting down bi people bringing up fair points!
Like, please step back and realize how you sound and look. Yes, I understand a lot of these people don’t want any more infighting in the community, but there’s a difference between transmeds harassing nonbinary people and people who use neopronouns vs bi people just expressing the fact that some pan people need to be more mindful and self aware of the label’s history. That’s not dividing anybody???
If you dismiss or shut down valid points like this, think about how you’re coming across. Because it sounds like you just want to call people panphobes instead of realizing you may still be incredibly biphobic. You care more about people not discussing the history of the label or denying it in favor of “no infighting” than actually having a discussion in good faith.
To end this already very long post, I have an excerpt from that same article, this time by the writer, Kravitz M. - I really recommend you check his other articles, and support him on Ko-fi:
''People tend to chalk down harmful rhetoric to just an exceptional “fraction of the community” instead of acknowledging the issue’s prevalency, which is an unhelpful deflection. The mindsets shown in the timeline were exhibited by many of the first to use “pansexual” as a sexual orientation, a trend that hasn’t stopped at all.''
Pan people are welcome to reblog this and interact but don’t clown on this post! If you call me a panphobe you literally missed the entire point of what I was saying and I want nothing to do with you lmao
Edit: made this more accessible for screen readers! My apologies!
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Ugh it makes me so upset how lowkey panphobic people are. Like they’ll seem really supportive sometimes but then claim we need to think about why we chose pansexuality over bisexuality or that some definitions are harmful or we need to consider the (supposed biphobic/transphobic) origins. Or if someone doesn’t wanna watch a show or read a book that has panphobia in it that’s somehow not enough of a good reason. It’s like how can you claim to be supportive and not see yourself saying all of this stuff? You’ve said it before but man pan people are REALLY held to a different standard. We’re treated like we just have to accept panphobia and we constantly have to over-explain ourselves whether it’s why we identify one way or why we /aren’t/ bad people, the fact that pan people very rarely use hurtful definitions (ofc when LGB ppl use a hurtful definition they’re not treated like the majority…), or why our history is Not bad. Can you tell someone I thought was a good person just pulled a lot of bs lol. I saw them say things like “we always talk about panphobia but never biphobia” before so maybe I should’ve known. Sad stuff.
“we always talk about panphobia but never biphobia” are they for real? WHERE? i cannot stand when people say shit like that. because it's flat out fucking untrue. and as someone who is constantly witnessing and calling out and hurt by the lack of care the community has for pan people and panphobia, panphobes insisting that panphobia is taken more seriously than biphobia or there's more/better pan rep than bi rep or both sides of the "bi vs pan" shit is equal is starting to feel like gaslighting.
just last night someone was put on my timeline on twitter talking about wanting to undo bi erasure in a video game and one of the characters they were talking about was confirmed by the creators and voice actor as originally intended to be pansexual but was erased due to network pressure. the sources they gave said this. but they're still saying the character's bisexuality was erased. like....even pan erasure gets erased. even when people write a pan character and they fuck up what pan means, everyone rushes to say it's bi/transphobic but never once mentions how it's panphobic.
it's just. no one fucking gives a shit about panphobia. and i am so beyond tired of people outright fucking lying and saying it's more of a priority than biphobia. like, not only is it outright false to say people care more about panphobia than biphobia, but it's outright false to say people even care about panphobia in the first place.
(also, you were spot on with everything. and i'm sorry someone you liked/thought was a good person turned out to be a panphobe.)
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"As soon as you have “feminist” women who believe that they are naturally superior to other women..." That's really the crux of posts like these. That's why they would call women sexually degrading names or describing them in sexually degrading terms while claiming to be feminists. Victim-blaming women constantly, or saying they're 'dick-worshippers', 'dickmatized', etc. I even saw a fauxminist compare OSA women's attraction to men to zoophilia. Unhinged, misogynistic creeps.
If we're going to be brutally honest - as we are in this corner of actual feminism - then we need to acknowledge that the above kind of thinking is exactly why feminism became so vulnerable to male attacks in the first place.
Feminists accusing fellow feminists of not being "feminist enough" and lording a superiority complex over other feminists because they were "lesbians" (whether actual lesbians or bisexual women who only partnered with other women, or the few straight women who decided to never partner with another man again), being misogynistic towards them while pretending to care about all women and pretending to want liberation for all women caused a lot of disillusion.
Biphobic "radical feminists" attacking bisexual women and denying our lived experiences made us vulnerable to the TIMs who sidled up to us saying, "...Those feminists hate us too, and deny that we're oppressed too, and refuse to accept us as real feminists too, let us give you solidarity, we know that bisexuality is real, we can be feminists together," and that surprise that there were people that wow, actually did care about bisexuals and claimed to stand with us (spoiler alert, they didn’t! They never gave a shit about us at all, only wanted to abuse and manipulate and gaslight us!) then had bisexual feminists tripping over backwards to keep those "allies" and validate them after the pain of being constantly invalidated and attacked by "feminists" they had worked alongside for years - to then fall into the very same trap of internalised misogyny and internalised biphobia that meant that the TIMs made everything about themselves. Because they lied and manipulated, and bisexual women wrung their hands, lay down and allowed TIMs to overrule what bisexuality was, thanks to there being no meaningful support for bisexual women actually existing out there in the world that helps to free us from the joint shackles of misogyny and biphobia. Just as so many bisexual women in radical feminist spaces are victims of that same trap, silencing themselves because they can't be "real feminists" unless the "superior feminists" validate them, knowing they're not allowed to have any bisexual solidarity, and to be a "real feminist" is to hate bisexuality and other bisexual women.
If there was actual solidarity and understanding between us, then bisexual women would have been stronger and wouldn't have capitulated in the opposite way after being so disillusioned with being hated by radical feminists.
They talked about being "queer" because there were early conversations without the understanding that heterosexism was the tie that really binds the LGB together, where they tried to explain that it was our full bisexuality that heterosexuals oppressed, it was not being heterosexual that caused us to be oppressed, not just our visible behaviours that showed same-sex attraction. The usage of “queer” was wrong, it should never have happened that way, it has lead to even more misunderstanding and hatred and pain, but we also need to recognise history and the truth for what it is, laying the blame out there fairly.
The greatest pain and frustration that I personally feel when it comes to bisexual activism as a bisexual woman is seeing that "radical feminists" can get it right for women's issues in general, when they're not being grossly misogynistic and fetishising lesbians to the point of homophobia, but the "queer" group tend to have a greater understanding of bisexuality. If you remove all of the mentions of "cis" and "trans" and "queer" from posts and blogs and books about bisexuality from that side, then you can find so much that fits so perfectly into radical feminism - but fauxminists won't entertain any of it, won’t see the usefulness and strip out the trash to keep the important parts, because they've somehow tiered lesbians at the top, then the poor, useless, handmaiden bitch straight women, and finally at the bottom, the predatory, lying, dick-obsessed bisexual whores that deserve every single rape and beating that men give us, so why would they?
All of that is why I refer to myself as a radical bifeminist. I refuse to endorse the constant barrage of misogyny and hatred towards women that’s accepted because some misogynistic woman happens to have “radfem” in her bio, and I refuse to be cowed with false accusations of “lesbophobia” for absolutely nothing but not bootlicking individual fauxminist lesbian boots while they’re being misogynistic and/or biphobic.
If all this hatred for women is actual “feminism,” then it’s really no wonder that the movement has had so much failure. There will never be liberation for women when even the so-called feminists hate the “right” women.
#crocodilian answers#Being controversial on main again?#It wouldn't be a post from me if it wasn't controversial lol#Feminists actually try being fucking feminist challenge take 45 billion
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Wait what biphobic things did maya say in s6? could you elaborate? genuinely asking
it's mostly minor things, nothing as explictly biphobic as what she just said, and you could argue that's bc david & niels didn't intend it that way in the first place (which is probably true), but i do think s6 canon has been enriched by s9 (+ vice versa), and that her recent comments aren't OOC when you rewatch. anyways:
under a read-more bc i think these need explaining and aren’t just...clear-cut examples, the way the recent clips were, so it’s long.
- when she comes out in her first clip, it’s in response to lola talking about having sex with guys. so she knows lola's attracted to men. their next meeting, she invites lola to a party and gets rebuffed (bc of tiff lmao), and maya assumes it's bc lola thinks she wants to sleep with her and that'd be the only reason maya would invite her out, and that lola's uncomfortable with that. then we get the iconic greta thunberg line. imo it’s not entirely unreasonable to think ‘this person i’m clicking with has suddenly turned me down after i came out, she’s homophobic’, but it is still her assuming lola’s straight and thinking that sleeping with men = can’t be queer (even though she was happy to flirt with a “straight” girl under that assumption jfkjdkfk, that’s a whole other thing to unpack, which is why i’m also not touching on maya ‘looking’ gay in a way lola doesn’t)
- the morning after the party, they're talking when lola gets a text from daphné. maya immediately asks "is that your boyfriend?". the question isn't inherently biphobic ofc, but at this point she’s fully aware that lola's not straight, and with the recent context of bilal asking if she freaked out bc clement’s a guy and her saying “maybe”, it’s not surprising imo that she immediately assumes lola’s got a boyfriend, not a girlfriend/partner etc, and is curious/insecure/views a bf as a roadblock in a way a gf isn’t, maybe?
- not biphobic at the time imo, but now just more evidence of her hypocrisy re: dating and gender: a week after they reconcile and maya says "i miss you when you're not around", she starts dating char. obviously we know it was bc she freaked out and ran to something “safe”, and doing that pre-dating is a loooot different to someone moving on from a relationship of almost two years a week after breaking up, but again...she’s mad about clement, a man, when she’s a canon serial dater! 18 girlfriends in an entire year lol (i think this is her longest relationship + the first time she’s been dumped tbh)
for what it’s worth i still think she would’ve been angry and jealous if clement was a woman; i like this post + agree with everyone saying she’s looking for anything except her own behavior to blame (which she admits to bilal). but she is still defaulting to biphobia in doing so, and def has some hangups about gender, men, sexuality. i was talking to @llamaslorries and she thinks maya might blame her father for ruining her and her mother’s life and is Alert about men being in the vicinity. i think her experiencing homophobia in the foster system also doesn’t help. either way: she needs therapy ASAP
#this is not an anti maya post btw#im obsessed with her and love her dearly#i just don't think she's OOC#long post#ask#anon
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I mentioned thinking about the 701 guys relation to gender then got derailed and just talked about Miguno so my thoughts for the record:
Jack never had any kind of worries or any real feelings about it so he's mostly always just ID'ed as a guy. For the sake of thoroughness he once tried IDing as nonbinary or even a girl on some forums at some point and it only confirmed "nope, no, that was weird, definitely a dude."
Collot mostly IDs as cis too but as he gets older he get a bit of a chip in his shoulder that that has to mean anything and people care and ask in the first place. He's mostly just chill and kinda feels above it all but a few bad experiences with biphobes and people asking why he doesn't just admit he's nonbinary makes him actually a little uncomfortable in a lot of lgbt+ spaces. Sometimes he takes they/them pins at events cause he feels like it's easier than trying to explain what his whole deal is for the millionth time.
Durham is cis. He has never had a thought in his head about gender. As he gets older he gets in the same progressive punk spaces as Miguno because duh that's his husband and learns about all sorts of gender shit and is instantly supportive but it never once occurs to him to try and turn any of that new insight inward because he just never needed to.
Legoshi is in every possible way that matters NB, maybe even transfem, but he has also never had a thought in his head about gender so never IDs in his life as anything other than a cis male. In some ways enlightened, like so genuinely unconcerned with the societal perception of being a male, only focused on what being a male means to him that he has actually completely blown by the step that makes him wonder what being a male means in general. Depending on how far you wanna push it in any given AU like he could go to a gender therapist and try estrogen and feel gender euphoria for the first time in his life and still somehow masterfully dodge through the most basic of informational packets and just be like "yeah having boobs and estrogen and wanting to be a girl and a mother and nothing to do with male anatomy is just what being a male is like" and keep on keeping on.
Voss is such a weird non-character that I feel like a lot of people headcanon him as a token of whatever they don't have headcanon rep for yet and at the risk of adding to that I like the idea of Voss as a trans woman. Doesn't realize til a little later in life, doesn't do basically anything to change their presentation, fine with any pronouns, but fully medically transitions as soon as that egg is cracked with zero regrets. Kind of a foil to Legoshi, didn't realize they were having gender problems because they were attaching gender too much to stereotypes and presentation and then fully embraced it while realizing nothing else had to change.
#original post#headcanons#legoshi#jack#collot#miguno#durham#voss#701#This has been in my drafts ever since that week I thought too hard about Miguno and I only just remembered it existed#Still stand by these headcanons
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i’ll never understand people who excuse their exclusionism with their own personal experiences. like “i detransitioned so now i’m a terf” or “i though i was asexual but i was just a traumatized kid so that means asexuality doesn’t exist” like what do you have to gain from that? why do you think the minuscule sliver of the human condition that is your personal experience gives you the right to decide what is and isn’t real for millions of others?
i identify as bi currently, and when i came out in middle school bisexual is the word i used. but when i realised i’m nb a few years later, i started identifying as pansexual, because i had been fed the (wrong, ahistorical, biphobic and transphobic) definition of “bi means two” with pan being presented as a more inclusive alternative. i faced queerphobia i didn’t have to because i thought i had to shove myself into the best fitting box from those lists of hundreds of microlabels that used to float around tumblr (remember those?) and was mocked and ridiculed every time i tried to explain to people irl what pansexual meant, trying not to out myself as trans but having no other answer for “why don’t you just id as bi?” (usually followed by something along the lines of ‘you fucking snowflake’) i felt like i was wrong somehow because no matter how hard i tried i couldn’t categorize all the complex feelings i had about my gender into any of those premade boxes. i tried genderfluid or demigirl for a while but nothing stuck. i started doubting myself when i encountered other definitions of pan, that said it’s attraction regardless of gender AND attraction that is identical to all genders, because mine wasn’t, and was so intrinsically tied to how i experience my own gender that i know now i could never have sorted it into two completely separate labels.
i don’t remember what came first but one day i said fuck it, i don’t want to have to explain this again, i’m just gonna say i’m bi, even if it doesn’t fit perfectly, because it fits well enough and this person doesn’t need to know more. i also started reading about actual bisexual history, about bi nb people, about queer people and about how umbrella terms are enough. nonbinary is enough. queer is enough. and bisexual has such an immense breadth of experiences, varying definitions, vastly different people using it over decades, that it is enough too, and for once in my life i can blend into a crowd.
now does that mean i have any issue with people identifying as pan? fuck no. it was the wrong label for me, it even hurt me to identify that way. but i’m not every person on this planet, nor am i self centered enough to think i have any right to speak for them. if i’d identified as a lesbian before realizing i’m also into men, i wouldn’t be going around saying lesbians don’t exist, would i?
i think we need to make sure people know umbrella terms are an option, queer is there to welcome you and you don’t have to choose a perfect label. i despise how pansexual is often used as a biphobic tool, but i despise when anything is used as a biphobic tool. doesn’t mean i hate the thing itself. i think we have very similar needs and goals in our fight for equality, and i think this rift between us is actively impeding that fight for both. i think the myth of ‘bi means two’ needs to go, and any pan (and not pan) person propagating it after being educated about it is a biphobe. but i’m not so self important as to think my label will be perfect for everyone, or that my feelings are the same as everyone’s. and i remember that wonderful feeling of belonging, when a microlabel just clicks into place and (even if it’s just for a few years) fits perfectly. i think that’s beautiful.
i thrive under an umbrella that doesn’t describe my atraction entirely, because that is its purpose. i thrive knowing that of all the queer people out there, living or dead, not one was exactly like me, and i feel safer knowing i have a word i can give to people that doesn’t tell them everything about that part of me, and doesn’t require me to introduce them to the word for the first time and become the one template through which they will judge everyone they meet who also uses that label. one that allows me to choose the moment when i sit down with them for a long night over a bottle of wine and explain the maze that is my gender and the minotaur of my sexuality that dwells within.
but others thrive on order. on knowing that someone out there feels so similarly to them that they wrote it down, gave it a name. they like being able to have one word that when googled will tell everyone more or less how they feel. they like being able to find another, equally specific word, when the first one becomes obsolete, or choose more than one. they like not identifying as a word that was given to us by doctors or bigots, but a word that came from within, that was created for them. sometimes they like creating a word of their own too, to put a neat bow on their own maze, so they can share it with others who may feel similarly and find each other.
and crucially, neither of these versions is wrong
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Okay, so I know this is really controversial, but I'm wondering why people would call themselves bisexuals if they aren't attracted to only two genders? There are other labels out there that match them better, so why say you are bi when you're closer to pan, poly, or onni?
Because there are plenty of other reasons why someone might prefer one label over another.
And since bisexual means "attraction to more than one gender" that absolutely includes people who are attracted to, well... more than one gender - no matter how many, even all. That's what bisexuality is and for a lot of people it's what it always has been. And just because, e.g. pansexual specifically means attraction to all genders doesn't mean someone has to use that label just because it might be a little more precise.
Like, the pillow next to me is technically scarlet but it's not wrong for me to just say that it's red. Both words are right to describe that pillow, "red" just leaves a little more wiggle room for interpretation.
Personally I'm attracted to all genders but I do not vibe with other m-spec labels at all. I don't mind their existence, I think it's great that people have a variety of labels to choose from. But I'm still bisexual. I prefer bi because I've known that label and felt connected to it way before I even knew any other m-spec labels, way before I learned that there were more than two genders. But luckily eventually I learned all those things and also that bisexuality can include all genders so I didn't have to change my label. I also prefer the bi-label because it's more well-known, demands less explanation in day-to-day life (though deeper conversations might reveal misconceptions) and it's easier to find and connect to bisexuality in an offline community. Also... it's a superficial reason but I find the bi flag the prettiest 🤷♀️
Maybe if I was younger and had had my first teenage self-exploration past 2015 I might've stumbled upon the term pansexuality in a formative moment and maybe that would've been the label I had been most drawn to? Maybe. But I'm 31 and I first said the word bisexual in the early 2000s. And I did not have Tumblr to explain things. I could not even google stuff bc we had one family computer and that was it, no smartphones and no way to google sex stuff without the risk of a parent looking over your shoulder. And even so, how could I google something I didn't know a word for? I don't know where I had picked up on the word "bisexual" (probably from s friend at school) but I felt a connection and deep down knew that it fit me. Nevermind that it was followed then by 10+ years of internalised biphobia and staying deeply closeted. So... do you really still wonder why I keep sticking with the label that I have an almost 20years long personal history with? That I have a stronger bond with "bisexual" than I could have with any other m-spec label that I've only learned about in the last 5-7 years? Which is not to say people cannot change their labels after a certain age, it's fine if they want to. But a lot of bisexuals don't and they don't have to just because other words are gaining popularity.
Other people might have different reasons for their labels and sometimes it's just not that deep. Bisexual isn't less accurate for someone who is attracted to 2+ genders because bisexuality doesn't mean exactly just two genders. And you're right that it's controversial what you wrote because it's essentially pushing for a bi=2 definition and demand that bi people use a different label if their attraction includes more than two genders. That's not just controversial, that's biphobic. So please stop that and accept that people can have plenty of reasons for why they pick a label and it's not just about definitions, it's often more about what feels right. It's not your place to say someone chose the wrong label for themselves or there'd be a better one for them. If they'd find another one better then they'd use that and they don't need your approval.
Maddie
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Hi? Would it be okay to ask for advice?
I used to be comfy with the pan label and I used to be so happy to finally know what I am... Until recently, since I saw so many blogs claiming that it's biphobic. I got insulted and threatened for asking someone to explain why because I genuinely didn't understand... And at this point I'm too scared to use labels or put pride flags anywhere...
It makes me so happy to see blogs like yours who don't exclude, but my anxiety isn't allowing me to relax and I'm still worried that I'm in the wrong here... I don't want to be a bad person.
I feel lost, because I thought I had found a safe space, that I could finally relax a bit and have some support despite living in a very homophobic place... But turns out I'm not safe anywhere and it's making me super paranoid...
I've always struggled with my sense of identity so after finally finding something that I thought was right for me, I felt so relieved... But now after I got treated this way for it, it doesn't feel good anymore? Nothing feels right anymore... I'm scared...
I'm sorry... Please feel free to ignore this... I really don't know what to do and I feel so lost...
personally, I think it's a crime that I can't give you a reassuring hug, anon (assuming you'd be alright with that). you definitely deserve one! :(
please don't pay any mind to people who insult and threaten you just for being loud and proud about your identity, they're not worth your time or energy. if they upset you that much, don't hesitate to block them--you're not obligated to educate them or prove that you're not biphobic. unfortunately, there's a lot of intracommunity bigotry on social media, and it'll take some time for that to change.
since you mentioned feeling anxious--specifically because you're not sure what to do / how to identify--here's an idea: why don't we establish a couple ground rules to help you set healthy boundaries and expectations for interactions in LGBTQ+ spaces?
no stranger online is entitled to know any personal information about you or your identity. if you don't want to tell people what gender / sex you were assigned at birth, which gender(s) you're attracted to, which label(s) you use (if any), or even details about your race / class / disabilities, you don't have to! in fact, anyone who demands that information from you at your own safety's expense is someone you should avoid.
it’s okay to not put your name, age, or pronouns in your bio. while having your name and/or pronouns on display can sometimes make it easier to meet new friends (as it’s easier to strike up a conversation with someone you know how to respectfully refer to), there’s absolutely no obligation on your part to do so! anyone who says “you HAVE to put your pronouns in your bio, especially if you’re cis” is well-meaning, but misguided in their approach to allyship for closeted and questioning trans people. age is a little trickier--while you’re not obligated to share how old you are, it’s important to be mindful of the boundaries you need to set with people in different age groups than your own.
you’re not responsible for the way outsiders see other people in the LGBTQ+ community. don’t listen to anyone who says “identifying with microlabels makes us look bad” or “your identity is fake / too confusing for cishets to understand, so use a different label instead”, they still have a lot of internalized queerphobia to work through before they’re ready to start giving anyone advice. you don’t exist for anyone else’s consumption--not allies’, brands’, or other members of our community’s.
you don’t have to tolerate someone being rude to you, especially if it’s because they don’t like the way you identify. don’t worry about “letting them win.” walking away from a conversation that’s upsetting to you doesn’t make you a coward or a loser, and even if it did, you should always put your own mental health first. (think of it like this: would you put up with someone talking to your friend this way?)
don’t be afraid to reach out when you need support. sending us this ask was a big first step in the right direction, and I’m so proud of you for taking it! and if you need to talk to someone, but aren’t sure where to start, why not try The Trevor Project, or their new public forum TrevorSpace? I’ve used both before, and they can be surprisingly helpful!
tl;dr: there are plenty of people in this community that love and support you! we want you to feel safe and welcome in LGBTQ+ spaces, and we’re happy to provide you with reassurance that you’re not hurting anyone by being proud of who you are 💜
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reasons why i absolutely adore the musical if/then and why you should watch it(or a recording) if you haven’t already
this might get a little long. please message me or something if you’d rather have a properly punctuated and spaced out version for whatever reason. i don’t want to inconvenience anyone.
ah yes the essay(kinda sorta not really) that absolutely no one has been waiting for which i used to get over my boredom in french and physics class. fun :)
alright people it’s if/then ramble time. again it’s a little long(i think it may be longer than essays i’ve written for school) so uhh it’s under the cut.
all righty let’s get started
1. the humor. while one or two jokes might be, well, to put it lightly, dated(like liz’s vaguely biphobic comment), they are, all in all, good jokes! some of my favorites include
“i’m a fucking great kindergarten teacher” “do you use language like that in class?” “only when it’s called for.”
“i don’t think it was fate so much as it was you”
and this is just from the first song! there are so, so many more.
2. the characters. i think it’s safe to say that to some degree, i can relate to most of them. more on that later. but even so, the most important thing is that they’re grounded in reality. each of them have virtues, shortcomings, biases, etc, etc. and it’s understandable and relatable because it’s human! i’ve noticed at times that characters end up being caricatures of a particular demographic. this is not the case here, and i’m, frankly, thankful for it.
3. the score. okay okay okay. it is absolutely amazing and beautiful and i’m here for it. the vocals? chef’s kiss. the music? chef’s kiss. the motifs? CHEF’S KISS. i love it when specific parts of the song, such as the music or just some lyrics get reprised to a different song. it just gives a sense of congruence and continuity to the whole thing. bonus points when it breaks my heart(like how the opening notes of “here i go” and the closing notes of “i hate you” sound eerily similar increasing the emotional impact).
3a. side note: as amazing as the songs are, i do need to admit that they truly show their magic when you properly know their context. allow me to explain. so before listening to any musical, i read the wikipedia synopsis so that (a) i have some amount of context before listening, and (b) i don’t get hit as hard emotionally when i finally end up listening to the soundtrack(now obviously that’s not the case--my eyes began to water during “unlikely lovers” of falsettos and “i hate you” of if/then during my watch throughs, for instance). well, i’m getting a bit off-track here. but anyways, i’m certain that people have expressed this before, but the wikipedia synopsis of if/then gave me absolutely zero useful context for listening to the songs. i was so confused half of the time! based on the synopsis, i thought that all songs following “what if?” (except for “surprise”, of course, which signified an intersection of timelines) were either exclusively liz songs or exclusively beth songs. for example: the songs that i thought were exclusively in the beth timeline include, “a map of new york”, “ain’t no man manhattan”(i explained my confusion in the tags of one of my reblogs this is already getting really long sorry), and “what the fuck?”; moreover, i thought “you learn to live without” was exclusively a liz song. also there’s a lot of dialogue in between stanzas of the song that’s not in the cast recording. so i guess what i’m saying is that if you have not watched/listened to it yet, watch first, listen later. don’t make the same mistake i made.
3b. another side note: this is absolutely not relevant but i came across a recording of the dc version over spring break and i watched it and can i just say <3 <3 <3. i can certainly see how it was improved over the years but i still love both versions equally :). also anne in her pantsuit in “this day” could step on me and i could thank her. my disaster bi ass goes brrr.
4. the lighting. pretty self-explanatory. i love how the lighting distinguishes between the timelines. also the “happy birthday elizabeth” banner that lights up different letters according to the timeline. beautiful.
5. the choreography. maybe i haven’t been looking in the right places but i haven’t seen much appreciation for this but...yeah. i’m in love with the choreography of this show! i don’t know why. it just strikes a chord with me. especially the scene near the end of “this day”. it’s so cute!
6. the representation! now this has most definitely been mentioned before by other folks, but i feel a need to highlight it as well. i guess this actually ties into my second point about the characters. it goes to prove how society is not homogeneous however it may appear to be. lovely.
7. and most of all, the ending. my absolute favorite part about the ending is the fact that it is somewhat ambiguous(i guess that’d be the best way to put it). there’s hope, especially in the beth timeline. i love how both timelines essentially cycle back to the beginning( “here’s how it starts / and here’s how it ends”) and “switches” the roles for both of them--liz gets the job while beth finds love. while i’m not a big fan of the job/love dichotomy, i do know that one can’t get it all all at once. so i’m glad that their arcs concluded with the beginning of the other’s arc. moreover, i love that liz/beth isn’t stuck in the what if’s and what not anymore and is, overall, more decisive. we love character development! and...about the ambiguity of the ending. i think this is one ending that i am happy about and that’s certainly saying something. i mean, the main reason for canon divergence fics is the fact that (a) someone’s character arc was severely messed up, or (b) someone died. well, yes, josh technically died but he is alive in the beth timeline, so that counts for something! and i don’t really feel the need to read any canon divergence fics(not considering the fact that they don’t exist! people please the fan fiction potential for this fandom is IMMENSE). so i guess what i have to say is i’m satisfied with the ending, a thing i can’t honestly say for many of the fandoms i’m in(...not gonna elaborate on that).
idk if i missed anything but i think that’s it.
#if then#if/then#here i go haha#please ignore the horrible punctuation it's for the aestheticTM#this is my first post in this tag !!#not gonna lie but i'm kinda nervous#idk why#wow 1k#this is definitely longer than my essay for english class(roughly 950ish words on average)
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on fujoshi and fetishization
Lately, more and more, both here on tumblr and on other sites, I keep seeing people spew unfiltered hatred at fujoshi - that is, women who like mlm content such as gay fanfic and fanart featuring men with other men. And I don’t mean like a specific type of fujoshi, like the ones who are genuinely being weird about it, but just like a general hatred for girls (but especially straight identifying girls) who express love for gay romance.
I hate to break this to you all, but women (including straight women!) actually are allowed to like mlm fanfiction and fanart, even enthusiastically so. A woman simply expressing her love of gay fanfic, even if it is in kind of a cringey way or a way that you personally don’t like, is NOT automatically fetishization.
I’ve been on the receiving end of fetishization for my entire life, from a very young age, as many black and brown folx have, so I consider myself pretty well acquainted with how it works. Fetishization isn’t just like, being really into drawings of boys kissing, or whatever the fuck y’all are trying to imply on this god forsaken site.
Fetishization is complicated imo, and can encompass a lot of things, such as (but not limited to):
1 - dehumanization, e.g. viewing a group of people as sexual objects who exist purely for entertainment purposes, rather than acknowledging them as actual people who deserve respect and rights
and
2 - projecting certain assumptions onto said people based on their race/sexuality/whatever is being fetishized. These assumptions are often, but not always, sexual in nature (like the idea that black people in general are more sexual than other races, etc etc etc).
I’m going to use myself as an example to illustrate my point. Please note this isn’t the best or most nuanced example, but it is the most simplistic. A white person finding me attractive and respectfully appreciating my black features as part of what makes me beautiful is not, on its own, fetishization. A white person finding me attractive solely or mostly because I’m a PoC is now in fetishization territory. Similarly, assuming I’m dominant because of my blackness (like saying “step on me mommy” and shit like that) is hella fetishistic.
That being said, theres definitely a difference between how fetishization works in real life with real people, and how it shows up in fandom.
Fetishization manifests in many different ways in fandom, but most commonly on the mlm side of things, I personally see it appear as conservative (or centrist) women who love the idea of two men together, but don’t actually like gay people, and don’t necessarily think LGBT+ people deserve rights (or “special treatment” as its sometimes dog whistled). These women view queer men as sexual objects for entertainment rather than an actual group of people who deserve to be protected from systemic oppression. I’ve noticed that they often don’t even think of the men they “ship” together as actually being gay, and may even express disgust at the idea of a character in an mlm ship being headcanon’d gay. In case its not obvious, this is pretty much exactly the same way a lot of cishet men fetishize lesbians (they see “lesbian” as a porn category, rather than like, what actual LGBT people think of when we read the word lesbian). There’s a pretty popular viral tweet thread going around where someone explains seeing this trend of conservative women who like mlm stuff, and I have also personally witnessed this phenomenon myself in more than one fandom.
The funny thing is, maybe its just me buuuut.... The place I see this particular kind of fetishization happen most is not in the anime/BL fandom, from which the term fujoshi originates - I actually see these type of women way way more in western fandom spaces like Supernatural, Harry Potter, and Hannibal. I can’t stress this enough, there’s a shocking amount of people who are like, straight up trump supporters in these fandoms. If you want to experience it, try joining a Hannigram or Destiel group on facebook and you will probably encounter one eventually especially if you happen to be living through a major historical event. Like these women probably wouldn’t even be considered “fujoshi”, because that term doesn’t really apply to them given they aren’t in the BL/anime fandom, yet they’re the ones I personally see actually doing the most harm.
Of course this isn’t the ONLY kind of fetishizing woman in the mlm/BL world, there are other ways fetishization shows up, but this is the most toxic kind that I see.
A girl just being really into BL or whatever may be “cringe” to you, or she may be expressing her love for BL in a “cringey” way, but a straight woman really enjoying BL is not, on its own, somehow inherently fetishization. Yes, sometimes teenage girls act kind of cringe about how much they like BL and that might be annoying to you, but its not necessarily ~problematic~.
That being said, IT NEEDS BE REMARKED that a lot of the “fujoshi” that you all hate so deeply, are actually closeted trans men or nonbinary people who haven’t yet come to terms with their gender identity, or are otherwise just NOT cishet. I know because I was one of these closeted people for years, and I honestly think tumblr and the cultural obsession around purity is one of the many reasons I was closeted so deeply for so long. STORYTIME LOL!!! In my early adolescence, I was a sort of proto “fujoshi”. I identified as a bi girl who was mostly attracted to men, or as most (biphobic) people called it, “practically straight”. I wrote and read “slash” fanfic and looked at as well as drew my own fanart. We didn’t use the term fujoshi back then, but that’s definitely how I could have been described. I was obsessed with yaoi, BL, whatever you want to call it, to a cringe-inducing degree. I really struggled to relate to most het romances, so when I first discovered yaoi fanfics (as we called them at the time), I fell in love and felt like I finally found the type of romance content that was made for me. I didn’t know exactly why, I just knew it hit different. LGBT+ fanart and fanfiction brought me an immense amount of joy, and I didn’t really think too hard about why.
At some point, in my early 20s, after reading lots of discourse�� here on tumblr and other places like twitter, I started to get the sinking feeling that my passion for gay fanfiction was ~problematic~. I had always felt a sense of guilt for being into mlm content, because literally anyone who found out I liked BL (especially the men I dated) shamed me for liking it all the fucking time (which btw is literally just homophobic, like can we talk about that?). In addition to THAT bullshit, now I’m seeing posts telling me that girls who like BL are cringey gross fetishists who inspire rage and should go die?
Let me tell you, I internalized the fuck out of messages like this. I desperately wanted to avoid being ~problematic~. At the time, I thought being problematic was like the worst thing you could be. I was terrified of being “cancelled”, before canceling was even really a thing. I thought to myself, “oh my god, I’m gross for liking this stuff? I should stop.” I beat myself up over this. I wanted so badly to be accepted, and to be deemed a Good Person by the internet and society at large.
I tried to shape up and become a good ally (lmfao). I stopped writing fanfic and deleted all the ones I was working on at the time. I made a concerted effort to assimilate into cishet culture, including trying to indulge myself more deeply in the few fandoms I could find that had het content I did enjoy (Buffy, True Blood, Pretty Little Liars, etc). I would occasionally look at BL/fanfic/etc in private, but then I would repress my interest in it and not look for a while. Instead I would look at women in straight relationships, and create extremely heterosexual Couple Goals pinterest boards, and try to figure out how I could become more like these women, so I, too, could be loved someday.
This cycle of repression lasted like eight years. Throughout it all, I was performing womanhood to the best of my ability and trying to become a woman that was worthy of being in a relationship. I went in and out of several “straight” relationships, wondering why they didn’t make me feel the way reading fanfic did. Most of all, I couldn’t figure out why straight intimacy didn’t work for me. I just didn’t enjoy it. I always preferred looking at or making gay fanfiction/fanart over actual intimacy with men in real life.
Eventually, I stumbled upon a trans coming out video that someone I was following posted online, my egg started to crack, and to make an extremely long story short, after like 3 years of introspection and many gender panic attacks that I still experience to this day, I realized that I’m uh... MAYBE... NOT CIS..!? :|
I truly believe if I had just been ALLOWED TO LIKE GAY STUFF WITHOUT BEING SHAMED FOR IT, I probably would have realized I was trans way way sooner. Because for me, indulging in my love of gay romance and writing gay fanfic wasn’t me being a weirdo fetishist, it was actually me exploring my own gender identity. It is what helped me come to terms with being a nonbinary trans boy.
Not everyone realizes they are trans at age 2 or whatever the fuck. Sometimes you have to go through a cringey fujoshi phase and multiple existential crises to realize how fucking gay you are AND THATS FINE.
And one more thing - can we just be real here?
A lot of anti-fujoshi sentiment is literally just misogyny. omg please realize this. Its “women aren’t allowed to enjoy things” but, like... with gay fanfics. Some of the anti-fujoshi posts I see come across my dash are clearly ppl projecting a caricature they invented in their head of a demonic fujoshi fetishist onto any woman who expresses what they consider to be a little too much enthusiasm for gay content and then using their perception of that individual as an excuse to justify their disdain for any women, especially straight women, ‘invading’ their ~oh so exclusive~ queer fandom spaces.
god get over yrselfs this is gatekeeping by another name
idk why i spent so long writing this no one is even going to read it, does anyone even still use this site
*EDIT: HOLY SHIT WHEN DOING RESEARCH FOR THIS POST I FOUND OUT THAT Y-GALLERY IS BACK OMG!!!
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