#and i actually love that in recent canon cass likes reading

[franollie]

her personal audiobook <3

[casscainmainly]

if you had a graph with the x axis being from "doesn't view batman as a father" to "views batman as a father" and y axis being from "doesn't view bruce as a father" to "views bruce as a father", where would you put each batkid?

btw, i love your recent metas <3

This is such an interesting ask!! Here's my rendition of it:

I'm going to add a little reasoning because these are contestable!

Dick: I personally don't think Dick separates Bruce from Batman the way some other Batkids do. Even if he did, Dick has been with Bruce so long, is so steeped in both his vigilante and civilian lives, that he's Bruce's son in any identity. Their bond transcends any 'Bruce vs. Batman' division.

Tim: Similarly, I don't think Tim separates Bruce/Batman, especially since he came into his life knowing both identities. The reason he's lower than Dick is because Bruce wasn't his dad originally; I'm a little biased since I'm now reading Batman: Contagion, but the presence of Jack Drake in much of Tim's tenure as Robin prevents Tim from being as strongly attached to 'Bruce/Batman = dad' as Dick.

Cass: Of course Cass separates Bruce and Batman very clearly, as she does with many people, such as herself and Babs as Oracle. For the early part of their relationship she didn't know Bruce, nor did she care; Batman is her father, Bruce is just the guy Batman happens to be sometimes. (I think this is less true recently, but she still thinks of Batman first and Bruce second).

Damian: Struggled with him because he definitely thinks of Bruce as his dad under any name, but I do think it's Batman that matters to him. He is the 'blood son' but it's the Robin mantle that establishes his relationship to Bruce (Robin, Son of Batman, not Damian, son of Bruce). This may have changed recently with the current Batman and Robin run, but for the majority of Damian's time I think it's fair to say he thought of himself as the son of Batman, not Bruce. (He is not anti Bruce though, which is why he's not that low).

Jason: Jason for sure thinks of Bruce as his dad - the entirety of UtRH wouldn't have happened if Jason didn't believe to his core that Bruce loved him as a son. That belief is so strong that Bruce overshadows Batman, in a way. Jason spars with Batman on the moral front, but his conflict is ultimately always with Bruce, which is the name he consistently uses in UtRH. This is the one I'm least sure about though because I've not read lots of Jason's runs.

Stephanie: Like Cass, Stephanie didn't know Bruce at all, so a lot of her relationship to him is Batman-only. She definitely doesn't think of either Bruce or Batman as a father - her desire for Batman's approval has shades of him being a father-figure, but it never goes as far as an actual desire for a father-daughter relationship. The only reason she's higher than Duke is because of the somewhat complicated way he echoes a father (and she, to Bruce, echoes Jason).

Duke: Duke doesn't really care about Bruce, and he cares about Batman only as a mentor. He basically tells Bruce he's only useful as Batman; even then, Duke doesn't have a super deep emotional attachment to Batman. He also loves Doug, who's still alive (though MIA), and wouldn't replace him in any scenario. He explicitly calls Batman a 'mentor' and 'friend'.

These are just my takes, I'm sure there are other interpretations of every single one of these. It's one of those questions that highly depends on your preferred dynamics for the characters, where canon can go either way. Even if this is horribly incorrect, I hope it was interesting! Thanks for the ask <3.

[rizzanon]

loving undoing fate so far!! this recent snippet of the og timeline is scratching an itch in my brain for angst and i love it 💕💕

I’m pretty sure ppl have mentioned it, but MC’s fate would’ve been avoidable if someone had actually properly trained her (looking at Babs in particular rn, seeing how she took training and giving her mantle to others a lot more seriously— both in canon and in this fic). Like… even if they didn’t have time (which is still bull, but wtv), Tim was literally sent to Paris to train in his early robin years, they could’ve sent her to train with someone else.

also, as much as i enjoy seeing dick suffer and become brutal in grief over his siblings, i think it’s a bit odd that he’s acting like he knew her all that well, considering how he didn’t even know where her room was or how to comfort her and talk to her after her argument with damian when she was 16 in the new timeline. I doubt much changed in those years from the og timeline. (This is not a nitpick of your writing, i just think it’s interesting he doesn’t acknowledge this, compared to Jason, who straight up says he failed her—Though, maybe it’s easier for him to see since he knew what it was like to actually be close to her before his death?)

sorry i rambled, but amazing work! i’m excited my holiday will be filled with reading this series!

-🥐 (i hope there’s no croissant anon yet, i chose this since, like several have mentioned, the mlb allegations and MC-Marinette allegations are strong lol)

glad you like the story so far <33

i wouldn’t say that barbara didn’t take mc’s training seriously. she did, though at the time when mc did decide to become batgirl, barbara was still going through a lot of things (like joker shooting her making her paralysed, her no longer being able to be batgirl and instead is still trying to find her footing as oracle) all of these factors build to her initially being unsupportive of mc taking up the batgirl mantle. but she realises later how much mc reminded barbara of her past self, which is why barbara gave in and helped her. but here’s the thing. technically, barbara isn’t responsible for mc. because mc is bruce’s child.

if you read batgirl 2000, you can see barbara was more involved in helping cassandra settle in with her vigilante work. and that’s because cassandra is barbara’s ward. so she is (and has to be) responsible for cassandra. and with cass losing her ability to read other people’s body language and having to relearn defense skills, i guess barbara shifted her focus onto cass more.

more of barbara and mc’s relationship will be explored in chapter 5/6 so maybe when i do post that, this will make more sense…¿?

also, i wouldn’t say that mc’s fate would have been unavoidable if she’d been trained properly. she is trained to a certain extent. mc was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. going in and fighting all those thugs whilst recovering from prior injuries she got from past patrols/missions, she pushed herself too much and was unable to recover and avoid the gunshots (i would say she was holding out on her own quite well before she was shot)

and tbf, i wouldn’t say dick is acting like he knew mc all too well (unless my writing does depict him that way, then mb 😭) i would say he’s still grieving and in denial that someone else—in his family—died. that’s his way of coping with mc’s death. he’s furious, he’s upset, he’s grieving, but there’s nothing he can do to make himself feel better, because he knows deep down that he failed mc. he’s just trying to come to terms with it i guess.

(mc is NOT marinette btw 🤨😒)

[aliteralchicken]

The way that it’s canon that Babs, Cass, Bart, and Kon lectured Tim about being mean to Steph haunts me in the cringing sense. It sounds so Steph-Centric fanfic like but… it’s canon… (Why would Kon & Bart even care about Steph??? 😭)

I will always defend Megan Firzmartins work (with the exception of YJ:DC) because a lot of male writers have got a lot less shit for much worse writing, I defended this issue in particular when it first came out because 90% of the complaints I saw were people being mad that Stephanie wasn’t *being homophobic* towards him

listen I get why she did it, she got slaughtered by Steph fans and timsteph fans for breaking them up despite the fact that Tim and Steph have broken up many times before and had many other love interests

to be completely fair to her she wasn’t the one to change Steph’s personality, she just gave her the same personality ever other writer has been giving her in recent years, if she gave Steph a more classic Steph response of reacting with anger and jealously there would be people absolutely crying out about it

And I partly blame young justice 2019 for the young justice being Steph’s friends plotline, because there’s no reason Steph and Kon should be anything more than frenemies especially after the whole Superboy vs robin teen titans issue

but overall, I would’ve loved it if they allowed Steph to be pissed off like she would’ve been pre new 52, it adds conflict in the batfamily, gives her back personality flaws that were very interesting, it’s adds something to the story especially since Cass would have to pick a side

I would’ve loved to see bart and kon trying to be there for Tim because breaking up with his girlfriend, not talking to his family and joining a self harm cult in order to take it down is very concerning and he’s not exactly the face of mental health (side note I do actually quite enjoy how she writes Bart)

overall, everyone being so insistent Tim talk to his ex after their breakup, not on his own terms, without this being shown as a bad thing, is not what I wanted to read, especially given that Tim ends up forcing himself out of the closet as an explanation rather than doing it naturally, I would’ve much preferred him going to her, rather than everyone forcing her one him

[azsazz]

Hiii 👋 just wanted to say I adore your writing ☺️ I always get so happy when I see you’ve written something new 😁

I was curious to ask, what are some of your favourite modern AU jobs/roles for the bat boys (whether you’ve written about them or not)? Or just any ACOTAR characters?

CEO Rhys has been done a lot, but for good reason, it’s so perfect. He almost has to be effortlessly rich and/or in some position of power, like a prince, or a mafia boss.💰 I also kinda like to imagine him as a nepo baby set to take over his father’s company, but he breaks away or gets cut off, so with his very little actual job experience (as he was all set to inherit), he gets a barista job at a lil coffee shop. ☕️

Cass would definitely suit something physical, like an ice hockey player, or a firefighter, or a personal trainer. I could so see him being a gym teacher as well, imagine him coaching a kids ice hockey team. 💪🏽 He would SO volunteer to be a nude model in life drawing classes in his free time 😆 Though I hadn’t considered it before I read your stuff, I think he really fits a small town rancher too. I can so picture him in jeans, boots, and a flannel shirt, driving around in an old rusty faded red truck 👨‍🌾

Az could easily be in the FBI or something, but choosing something further away from his canon role, I seriously think he’d be an awkward computer programmer / software engineer nerd, or a twitch gamer, 👨🏻‍💻 with a secret anonymous OnlyFans or erotic audio patreon on the side. 😏 And I reckon he’d ride a motorcycle and tinker with it in his spare time, so might also enjoy working at a garage. 🏍️ I really love him in Midnight Muse, and think he suits a shy amateur artist / tattoo artist as well.

I also love the bat boy band idea I’ve seen a lot recently, where Rhys is the charismatic lead singer and guitarist, Az is the quiet songwriting bassist, and Cass is the energetic drummer. 🎶

Sorry it’s so long, I just love thinking about this stuff 😄

Hiiii!! Thank you so so much! I saw this message this morning but wanted to wait until I could give it my full attention and have my computer around, so thank you for your patience! 💙

Okay, some of my favorite AUs for the batboys? This is a wonderful question!

Rhys: Normally, I just think of Rhys as always having some sort of money/job inherited. So CEO, mafia, anything that puts him in a position of power, really, but i think it's mostly because those just reflect the books.

I do, however, love love love art school rhys. painter rhys. working at the local art supply degenerate rhys who still has wealthy parents but is trying to stick it to the man rhys. steals erasers and petty things from the art supply rhys. love him so much.

There's also something to be said about young adult rhys who's messing around with his little sister's best friend rhys. he gets me going too.

also captain of the hockey team rhys is a solid choice for him as well.

Cass: LOVE ME SOME RANCHER/COWBOY/SMALL TOWN CASSIAN. but, these are all very different. small town cass doesn't trust women, heart broken at a young age with the girl he thought was his forever. doesn't want to leave town, likes the ranch because its safe and its what he knows. cowboy cass or bull rider cassian, famous for breaking horses and backs. grumpy, gruff rancher cassian always gets me going tbh he's fucking hot as shit

i also always see him in a blue collar role like a mechanic or welder are the two i mostly attribute to him.

def something physical as well, we love hockey cass, rugby cass, wrestler (wwe lol) cass, dang i had another on my mind for sports cass but i forgot. sad. OH surfer cassian. jock type tho i can see him as. love the firefighter vibe for him too, he'd fill out the tight fire department t-shirt WELL LADIES and also volunteers for wet t-shirt contests. omg gym teach cass would be adorable as hell! oof another thought, contractor cassian ffs that would be so yummy

Az: Az i agree fits the FBI (stalker) vibes. i also like to think of him in finance or computer science too. omfg the erotic audio that's iconic and i'd def subscribe to that. hmmm what else could i see azzy doing...maybe something with music or writing...i could see him being a ghost writer of some sort and then one day his song plays on the radio and he's like hey i wrote that and literally no one believes him. something behind the scenes or where he can go unnoticed is mostly where i place him, tbh. honestly maybe even something military because he takes comfort in having a set schedule and people telling him what to do at every minute of the day. he'd fare well i think. perfect. operative because if the mission goes south and he gets captured he's not telling a soul anything.

Eris: idk why this thought came to my head but i was thinking about architecture but i think eris would be a fantastic interior designer lol. like i could see it. maybe i was just thinking about him furnishing az's new place and having a lil sparky. i could also see him as a lawyer too or something like that, something where he can be the know-it-all, smirking at them and looking down his nose at them...

Lucien: Architecture for sure. or professor. I could see him doing either of these. maybe even lawyer tbh, he would be good at that too, though i know he's immaculate at twisting stories and words so you gotta be careful of that.

Tamlin: poet? lol. professional gaslighter? jk i love tammy. maybe he installs security systems? haha just kidding just kidding. he's a tough one tho. idk why i added him but i guess also a musician but low-key soothing music, instrumental for sure...prob has a podcast where he just bullshits all day

hopefully i didn't rant for too long about this 🤭💙 this was so much fun though thank you for asking!

[princessofmerchants]

Hey ! first of all: I recently discovered you blog & totally fell in love with it🥺, especially after my "Nessian Hangover".

I know this might be a bit off-topic from your usual content, but there's something about Cassian's relationship with Mor that really irks me...and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

His actions, like pulling away from Nesta's hand in ACOWAR, left me feeling frustrated and sympathetic towards Nesta. And then there's that whole thing in Wings and Embers where he's all secretive about Nesta with Mor and doesn't wanna tell her about Nesta, which gave off major mixed signals?? I mean, describing Mor as something between a lover and a friend, while also being like family? That was so confusing, how can she be all three to him? it just felt so ... inappropriate and I felt so bad for Nesta bc obviously she deserves someone who has only eyes for her.

But then in SF he says all romantic feelings turned into familial bonds after the incident so what was that about then in WaE and pulling his hand away in ACOWAR?

Also in WaE it sounded like he primarily slept with Mor out of jealouy but in SF it does seem like he did had romantic feelings towards her ? :/ ...

And when he thought in SF about how hauntingly beautiful Mor is and how it takes his breath away and that she is lovely and perfect .... it just drove me mad tbh because this sounded very romantic coded to me which made me feel so bad for Nesta.

it has been all so confusing and inconsistent to me and also just frustrating how he talked so poetic about a woman he slept with (or did he also call Nesta also hauntingly beautiful or lovely or perfect and I'm not remembering it?), or how he didn't wanted to show Mor that he has feelings for Nesta?? :/ - so I just wondered what you thought about all of that, in hopes to calm me down or clarify bc it really almost ruined him for me (maybe I was misinterpreting stuff?).

hope that's not a weird question bc of how spesific it is haha

BTW I love your love for Nesta bc same🖤.

I love this ask, Anon, and how detailed and specific it is. It is a question after my own heart! My response is long so it's after the break.

Thank you for saying you love my love for Nesta - that means the world to me. What I especially like about your ask is, it is about canon Nesta, who is the Nesta I most treasure, and by extension about canon Nessian. I sometimes feel like a lone voice in the drafty moors of Tumblr with my deep and abiding love for canon Nessian, so the fact that this ask lets me talk about them in canon makes me happy!

I have given this a lot of thought since receiving your question, and I'm not sure how satisfying parts of my answer will be, so my apologies in advance for the fact that I am not actually going to offer an explanation for how and why all the details you listed can co-exist in a single, utterly comprehensive whole for the Cassian-Mor relationship when Cass is unquestioningly Nesta's by the end of ACOSF.

Instead, here's why the lack of things utterly lining up for these three doesn't bother me in the long run, and only slightly bothered me during the pre-ACOSF / post-ACOFAS era.

It is clear to me as a reader that SJM pivoted in a significant way between ACOMAF and ACOWAR when it comes to Mor.

I came across a post recently that explains exactly my thoughts on this. The post focuses on the current ship war but the evidence in it describes how during ACOMAF it was clear Moriel (Mor and Azriel) was likely to be endgame, but then SJM shifted Mor's arc to where she was more attracted to women, which meant needing to retcon a lot (and unfortunately a lot of Mor's charm and nuance was collateral damage that I am still hoping SJM repairs).

I think Cassian in ACOMAF needs to be read in the context of a planned future love triangle of sorts between Azriel-Mor-Cassian, into which I do think SJM planned to throw Nesta as a big bomb that beautifully blows up Cass's corner of the triangle. But the parts in "Wings and Embers" where Cass says to the reader he is worried about what Mor will think about his fixation on this human woman, I think were meant to preserve some kind of angsty triangle for the next book, which SJM (thankfully) jettisoned. I hate love triangles so I honestly would not have been a fan if that had been where SJM landed.

Now, in ACOWAR and ACOFAS, I think the Mor stuff with Cassian gets a bit more confusing, so I agree with you there. Cassian doesn't know for sure Nesta is his mate until she screams for him during the Battle of Hybern at the end of ACOWAR, so the stuff before that - e.g., him removing his hand from hers - I read in a few ways. I think being buffer to Mor with Azriel all those years messed with his head a lot, and in a way, Mor finally coming to terms with her sexuality is a really solid catalyst for her beginning to distance herself from the triangle dynamic she was a part of for 500 years, which I think was more healthy for everyone involved.

But remember, Nesta is still proud and surly in ACOWAR, not in any inherently bad way but in a way that probably didn't signal to Cassian she was particularly interested in him, even as he was drawn to her like a magnet and couldn't keep away because part of him loves her claws so much. Cass rightly protects his own heart when he has the foresight to do so in ACOWAR and ACOFAS. I always knew they would work their shit out eventually, but during the messy process of doing so I don't begrudge him a little distance when Nesta, in her trauma response to what was happening to her and around her, sometimes lashed out at the strongest individual in her vicinity who she knew could take it like a boulder weathers the storm - that person was always Cassian for her.

When I first read ACOSF, I absolutely assumed going in that Mor was going to be catty about Nessian finally starting to get together. When she wasn't, it was jarring to me. But once I finished my first reading of ACOSF, I came to a striking conclusion about Mor, ACOSF, and SJM:

The story SJM needed to tell in ACOSF would not have been aided or forwarded by Mor intervening in the Nessian dynamic in a catty way, or being a foil to anything about Nesta in that story's arc.

In other words, SJM could have written a version of Nesta and Cassian's book that included Mor challenging Nesta's right to be with Cassian, but that was unequivocally NOT the book SJM wanted or needed to write (hopefully my double negative landed correctly here, lol).

So, SJM pivoted, and sent Mor to Vallahan, so SJM could write the story she needed to write. As a writerly choice, I adore everything about it - Nesta didn't need to be fighting with another woman over rights to her mate, she needed women friendships that were pure and gloriously blank slates upon which and with whom to write and tell her and their collective story - so SJM introduced Emerie and Gwyn. SJM even brought in Mor later to teach Nesta the waltzes, and their brief exchange in which Nesta called her Morrigan and Mor invited her to call her Mor, and Nesta accepted the invitation to do so, is another breathtakingly vulnerable moment for Nesta that fills my heart right up. To this end, the promise that Mor will begin to train with the Valkyries in the next book has me so excited.

Now, there are two lines in ACOSF I still want to comment on (then I'll reign in this very long post, lol). First, I agree that Cassian's observation in his pov of how breathtakingly beautiful Mor is at the cafe toward the start of the book can come off romantic coded, though for him at this point I don't think it is. But whether it is or not, we need to remember he and Nesta still have a whole book's worth of stuff to work through with their romantic relationship.

I suspect SJM included that moment in part to set up some stakes for the Nessian arc - that, although Cassian hasn't had sex since he met Nesta, he is still a man who is drawn to admiring a beautiful woman inside and out. If Nesta had already won his exclusive attention in this regard before any of their arc began in that book, what would be the point of the book? (By the end, I do think Cassian only has eyes for Nesta, and it is absolutely because they claim each other - I don't think in the long run he would have been able to settle for less, and nor should he have.)

And, since Nessian aren't in a relationship at that point in the cafe at the beginning of the book, I'm not mad at him for admiring Mor's beauty per say. I think if Nesta invited it then, he would admire hers a lot more, and with a much more deep seated attraction. ACOSF is about them both letting their inner barriers down to allow the other to love them, so that kind of attraction still needs to be earned between them at that point in their story. His observation about Mor's beauty is in a different category entirely from where Cassian eventually lands with Nesta, so there is nothing threatening about it for me.

The other line that feels weird to me most times I read it, is when Mor baldly tells Nesta early in ACOSF that she would have sent Nesta to live in the Court of Nightmares. The only explanation I have for this moment and exchange is that for SJM it was more in service of Nesta's arc, and less about making sense coming from Mor. What I mean here is, at that moment Nesta feels wretched and all things terrible about herself, and it's a feature of that kind of disordered thinking that others around you either seem to echo what you're thinking about yourself, or sometimes do echo it in reality, if through a trauma response you've hurt those around you (*she says from personal experience*), or if through their own trauma response those around you respond in kind (as I think may have been happening with Mor in this scene).

Do I love that Mor says something so cruel to Nesta in that moment early in Nesta's healing journey? No, I do not. Do I see why it helps to heavily charge these early scenes for Nesta as she truly hits rock bottom regarding her feelings about herself? Yes, I do.

Which leads me to how I'll conclude this. I hope SJM intentionally develops Mor's story so she isn't just a device in the story arcs of others. For better or worse, some kind of reckoning between her and Az needs to happen, likely in the next book, for either to truly move on. But I hope Mor gets the attention a character like her deserves in future books.

I am A-OK with her mostly-absence from ACOSF because I don't think she would have been a productive part of Nesta's healing arc, and at the end of the day that is the heart and soul of ACOSF for me - Nesta healing.

The reason ACOSF-Nessian has my whole heart is because, it's so clear to me the ways Cassian supports Nesta's healing and is the catalyst for a lot of her growth into a person who loves herself and sees herself as worthy and deserving of love and happiness.

If he was a bit of a hot mess in the period between first meeting Nesta and getting to finally be with her as accepted mates, I don't begrudge him that.

[aingeal98]

what do you think of cass's love of books in recent more canon?

Like a lot of things from rebirth era, I don't hate it I just wish it had more set up. I wish we could have had a coherent narrative from Cass hating reading because she's a perfectionist and words don't come easy to her, to current Cass who greatly enjoys and appreciates books. But because of editorial erasing her from comics and bringing her back as Orphan, we don't get that. Even now that she's back with all her memories, the work between point a and point b just hasn't been done. Do I think it's nice that Cass loves books now even if reading doesn't come easily to her? Sure. Do I wish we'd been able to see the journey from her original feelings to where we are now so that I can actually appreciate this development? Absolutely. As it is, I just see it as a "??? Sure whatever I guess someone can write a fic filling in the blanks" type of character beat (where blanks stand for actual character development on page that got skipped thanks to the reboot)

Thanks for the ask! :D

[dailycass-cain]

My Thoughts on Lazarus Planet: Dark Fate #1 (aka the Cass portion)

An hour past noon. Enough time for some thoughts on one story, Lazarus Planet: Dark Fate #1. Some thoughts to keep us warm until Spirit World #1 arrives...

The thing that always interests me with Alyssa Wong when they tackle Cassandra Cain is they take the character and use stuff Cass has faced and then spin something new.

Cass has only encountered magic a handful of times. Only once in her entire series (ironically near the tail end with Lazara).

In truth, Cass has encountered magic outside her own comic more (Young Justice, the Zee arc in Tec Knights, and just recently the big battle in “Dark Crisis” where she literally was dodging attacks from Spectre) and--

JL: Elite with her and Coldcast being in the "world of shadows" and they encountered some Lovecraftian creatures.

Literally, outside the main universe, Cass encountering mystic stuff seems more common. We have Cass getting Shazam powers in DCeased, her fighting vampires (and teaming up with Frankenstein briefly) in DC vs. Vampires--

-- and another place in an animated adaptation of a comic she was never in originally (Batman: the Doom that Came to Gotham).

So all of this is a nice treat to see Wong take the character outside their "comfort" area and into something that's an open area for the character to explore, magic.

We get the perfect gateway character for that with Cass in the newly introduced character Xanthe.

Though I have to admit this brief little tease Wong gives introducing Cass maybe hints at what she's been up to during the Batman vs. Robin mini prior. Not jobbing, but making the city safe while everyone else was occupied.

Which kind of makes sense truthfully for someone of Cass's skillset. Nezha couldn't incapacitate or maybe twist her like everyone else. So the next best thing is to keep her so busy that she doesn't have any time to do anything else.

At least what I'm going with by reading this.

The thing that fascinates me early on in Cass and Xanthe's team-up is how Cass calls the vampires one thing and Xanthe calls them and I love the editor's note here because I'm utterly clueless with it comes to Chinese mythology (save a few things).

I also love that Wong showing their knowledge of Cass knowing what to do due to being such a movie junkie (and I liked that this was brought up. The nod made me smirk cause it's been A WHILE since someone referenced Cass's old habits).

I also just love that this isn't the end of the story and that Xanthe, Cass, and John Constantine (a character Cass has barely any meetings of in canon, but had one out of it in DCeased).

There was SOOOO much of this story and the art by Haining gives us a nice expressive Cass. Again, I don't mind the white eyes when an artist makes them so expressive and Haining gives Cass some nice reactions throughout this tale.

Not to mention some nice fluidity in her move set too. Literally, the only negative I can say is how quickly the story ended and make me hunger for more. Thankfully we only have two more months before we get just that in Spirit World #1.

The premise in that, Xanthe/John in a quest to save Cass. I'm game for. Though I do hope we just see a character like Cass see the Spirt World thru her eyes. Cause body language and also for new readers this be a nice treat.

Plus the chance to see Cass actually struggle not have it be ooc? To learn something new? Yeah, I'm game for that.

The side bonus to all of this is we get a full-on tale by Alyssa Wong. No one part (ala Batman: Urban Legends #8) and a short (but amazing story in DC: Doomed & the Damned #1).  Just a full-on story Wong has with Cass and I'm all for that.

Though I am hopeful that maybe Batgirls can deal with this issue's fallout? I'm game for Babs/Steph to have an issue or more with them wondering where Cass is at? Or maybe Cass show up and have an editor's note (read Spirit World #1).

Just to give that nice bridge to both comics that Cass is in. Besides it gives us that moment with Steph to see her own thoughts when Cass is out of the picture (will she read Cass's letter?).

Not to mention see Babs' thoughts on handling what occurred with Steph in #15 and now Cass going on a crazy Spirit Adventure with others.

If you can't tell I really REALLY dug this story and can't wait for May for more of this.  It truly is a nice surprise to not only get a bonus mini that has Cass in it but is written by Alyssa Wong?

[nerdasaurus1200]

We haven't talked in a while (cause I've been dead/busy, lol) so I'm sending you MANY questions!

✨- Moonstone or Sundrop?

🔮- Something you wish had happened in the series?

📺- Another show you’d like to see have a cross over with Tangled?

🖤- Tangled NOtp?

 

💎- Favorite AU?

💜- Characters you think should have interacted at all or more?

📚- Favorite Tangled Fanfic?

💢- Which character do you not relate to the most?

💥- A big a opinion you have related to the Tangled movie/series?1

Hey Portal! Don’t worry, I’ve been busy too, I just got back from summer vacation.

Moonstone or Sundrop?

Oh, moonstone. All the way.

Something you wish had happened in the series?

Well there’s always the chronic thing of me wishing Rapunzel actually apologized to Cass like Cass apologized to her. Right now the biggest thing that I wish happened in the series is that we got to see a bit more of Rapunzel’s extended family besides Aunt Willow. She’s part of a royal family after all, there’s no way she doesn’t have a ton of aunts and uncles and cousins.

Another show you’d like to see have a cross over with Tangled?

Definitely either Dragon Prince or Vox Machina. I feel like some the character dynamics would be so hysterical.

Tangled NoTP

This won’t come as a surprise to anyone who knows me but…Cassunzel.

Favorite AU

I can’t pick just one so my top five favorite ones are

the New Moon AU in which Eugene and Rapunzel share the moonstone

The forbidden love au in which Rapunzel and Eugene were raised in their respective kingdoms and now have a secret romance going on and Varian, Lance, and Cass play matchmakers/chaperones

Roleswap AU, this one’s a lot more versatile but usually Rapunzel swaps roles with either Cass or Varian and she’s raised as an alchemist peasant girl and Eugene and/or Lance is the tutor to either Varian or Cass, depending on who’s the Lost Royal in the au

I don’t know if it’s an official au but @erazonpo3 had this cool Rapunzeltopia variant where Gothel never kidnapped Rapunzel and stayed to raise Cass and the canon Rapunzel and Eugene found that au’s Cass

And of course, post series au

Characters you think should’ve interacted at all or more?

Definitely Varian and Cass. Also Arianna and Cass because good god let the girl have a healthy mother figure. All of the Brotherhood, definitely. And also Lance And Rapunzel because wholesome sibling in law dynamics. Oh and I know they’re not in the show but I would’ve loved to see more of Rapunzel and Candor and Rapunzel and Dahlia

Favorite Tangled Fanfic

Oh man, I feel like I’m friends with all the good writers in the fandom. I’m still working on finishing reading them all and eagerly awaiting the rest but @th3p0rtalmaker, @majorabbey, @twotangledsisters, @flossy2003, @frozenwolftemplar, and @batata-doce-com-farofa all have such fantastic fics! You’re all such great writers and I love your work so much!

And also there’s this really great fanfic recently I found that was actually reccommended to me by @twotangledsisters called “The Fall” which focuses on Cass’s climb back up her tower at the end of CR.

Which character do you not relate to the most?

I think probably Frederic or Trevor, because never once have. I thought that kidnapping my crush or holding someone hostage was a good idea.

A big a opinion you have related to the Tangled movie/series?

This may be a piping hot take but just because Cassandra is introverted doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing or that she needed Rapunzel to break her out of her shell or even that she had no friends before Rapunzel. She doesn’t need Rapunzel to make her more likeable or socialize with people more or be more open. Being an introvert is perfectly okay. Hell, I myself am an introvert and if someone tried to get me to open up like that or be way too friendly towards me, I would also just dig my heels in or shut it out. And this take doesn’t even make sense anyway to me because Cass still barely interacts with anyone after befriending Rapunzel

[zorilleerrant]

BANG BANG BANG

10 13 & 16

You said specifics last time so DC pwease

10. worst part of fanon

Don't get me wrong, I like a butch lady, but I don't know why everyone wants to make Cass so gender non-conforming. (I mean. I do know why.) In canon she leans heavily into high fashion aesthetic. Some of that reads a little more masculine these days than when they were drawn, but, like, not that much more masculine? And even when they are, they're paired with things that, if anything, read even more feminine now than at the time.

She loves her girly clothes! She loves cutesy fun soft things! She loves bright colors! Her casual clothes are the opposite of her costume, and that's by design! Her attraction to ballet as an artform is a visual struggle between her desire to look feminine and the fact that she never got a chance to do that in her childhood, while she was forcibly degendered by a white man, and then infantilized by everyone else around her. People cite that one picture of her in a tux, and it's like, that's because she's imagining herself as James Bond, and also, femme tuxes are a recent fashion trend.

If you want butch/femme StephCass, which, like, you also don't actually need one of each, why don't you butch up Steph? She wears a lot of androgynous or masculine clothing, and not that much super feminine clothing, and she doesn't like dressing up which you can easily read as a gender presentation thing. Steph can be butch and Cass can be femme and I never see it.

Cass isn't gender non-conforming! She's definitely not gender non-conforming enough to call herself a man! She'd be Batwoman if she took on the role, not Batman!

13. worst blorboficiation

Damian. I get projecting on him and using him to deal with all your personal issues, and that's fine, since he's basically a self-insert in the first place (with all love to Grant; they did a wonderful job). I expect a fair amount of variability in characterization and even think it's kind of fun, because as a kid/teen, he should be trying out lots of different looks and attitudes and interests. So, you know, the people who lean hard into Stabby Baby Loves Stabbing or Tortured Assassin Renounces Assassinry don't bother me.

...but you don't have to make it so flat. I swear, so many of them just avoid ever having any conflict in his personality. And he's a conflicted character! That's the joy of him! Whatever his conflicts are about can change, but he's the kind of character who thinks a lot about things and then can't decide exactly how he feels. He's done things he's not proud of, he wants to do things but he's not sure how, he does things the best way he can but he makes mistakes. People make him 100% right or 100% wrong and that's not how people are, not even when they're kids. Or they make all the conflicts romantic.

I feel this is especially true of him as a background character where people feel like they need to include him just because he's a Robin or whatever. So they go, oh, hey, his fans used this keyword, and then put him in doing that thing in the background. And people who like him eat it up! And I just feel like, if you don't like a character, don't include them, that's fine. But I also feel like, if you do like a character... have some standards, idk.

16. you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc)

Character bashing. People just caricature that character's traits to make them more evil and hateful and like, why? I either already hated them, so you don't need to do that, or I didn't hate them, and now I'm wondering if you're alright there, buddy. And then they go and torture the character a whole bunch.

And it's just... if bad things happen to a character, maybe I do want to see that. I'm not immune to hating characters! I want Steve Trevor dumped in a ditch! But the joy of it would be that they're characterized well, but all the other characters hate them for the same reason I hate them. And then bad things happen, but they make sense in the context of the plot and the world.

Also when you have other characters be like 'haha let's torture this person' I'm sort of like. Okay but that's not very nice and now you're making the characters I like seem like, at best, assholes, and at worst... sometimes adult characters will torture a kid character that the author doesn't like, and, I mean, I get it, catharsis, but I'm still going to be like 'Batman why are you a bad person now' if I see that happening. I make actual faces at the words.

[seeminglyseph]

I know in recent years Marvel has delved into legacy identities way more, and I admit that I mostly know about it because I know about the MCU more than the comics universe and have had legacy heroes sold as either jumping on points, or as the MCU versions of certain characters/ways comics have adapted comic versions to be more similar to movie versions.

But part of me feels like, as someone who originally got interested and passionate about the superhero genre through DC Comics, where legacy heroes were a lot more common and a bigger deal (at least for the era I was reading, I do also remember the nu52 and the period immediately proceeding it involved a lot of like… reactionary un-legacying of a lot of characters which like… honestly resulted in me reading significantly fewer comics) the way for heroes taking up someone’s mantle was paved with like…

Flash, Green Lantern and Robin. And two of those I think we can point to Geoff Johns as to why they’ve stagnated a little. And I might get a lot of shit for that because he’s also created some really fascinating lore for the Green Lanterns, but he *needs* to let go of Hal. I know I personally dislike Hal with the power many would find hypocritical considering I adore Guy, but a character who knows he’s an asshole and everyone agrees is an asshole and a character who is an asshole and everyone is too busy tossing that salad to notice is entirely different and that’s the difference between Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner both being assholes. One is the author’s most favourite character ever and the other clearly sucks at emotional maturity and expression but does at the core have a good heart and intentions.

Barry Allen ruined the world. His sacrifice was great, the world moved on, a whole new generation of fans were attached to Wally and his story, then Geoff Johns continued undoing legacies and broke the whole world and brought back Barry Allen. There could have been potential with him as a man out of time in the timeline he didn’t fit in anymore and had been dead for years, but after Flashpoint he’s genuinely one of my least liked characters because of how much like… “no, it should be like when I was a kid” vibes he brought with him. While Hal’s revival just shook up the status quo of the Green Lantern corp and sucks a little for people who liked Kyle but since the Corp was big enough Kyle and Guy and John still got to have their stories… but Barry came back and not only did Wally get shelved, he stopped existing for a while. Same with Wally’s family like Linda Park-West and his kids Iris and Jai, Bart Allen didn’t exist for a while, a massive swathe of the Flash Family and legacy was completely wiped out. And I think they’ve brought some of them back lately? But I know I spent years with most of my favourite characters just not existing and it just made the idea of The Flash fully not interesting, despite the lore and legacy of the Flash being a favourite.

And Robin… well everyone’s afraid Robin’s too silly to touch let alone actually allow to live out into a legacy. The fact that it’s one of the most poignant that DC has is a shame, but they seem pretty terrified of it. And they keep erasing one or more of them from the lineup and they all served a purpose. You can’t just replace Tim with Damian. They serve entirely different purposes. Why there are canons that skip Tim baffle me. I swear it’s not just because he’s my favourite. I dislike but understand skipping Steph’s time as Robin due to the fumbling of the execution, but honestly I think the Batgirl legacy undo is more egregious for all I think her run as Batgirl was painfully toothless and removed a lot of her characterization. Babsgirl still pisses me off because Oracle was amazing and glorious and they backslid all of that and spit in people’s face while they did it. At least Steph and Cass exist now, they also spent an extended time in purgatory.

It’s hard to love legacy heroes. You never know when they end up on a shelf. Or they suddenly become the side character in someone else’s story after you gain an attachment. They get killed or stuffed into “not a character anymore” purgatory and yelled at at conventions if you ask about them.

And after all that they might end up reimagined in the worst light possible and that becomes the new cannon, because they had a spare character to offer up for a redo. And now you have to explain you liked them before they were made into the popular adaptation that most people think you’re talking about.

[fogemorfem]

What the FUCK?? I'm on s15e18 of Supernatural. I was convinced that The Scene would be in the last episode. But suddenly it just started happening, everything aligning, the backgrounds correct, Cass telling Dean about his deal with the Empty (I knew Cass would get swallowed up by the Empty after the "I love you", because I read it on Know Your Meme).

Guys, I was not ready. I have mentally prepared a post about how I guess times are different now, because I couldn't see anything in canon that's really pointing to Dean and Cass being more than friends, or wanting more. I can see that they are shippable, but people talk about it on here makes it seem like they were very gay with each other on screen and I just don't see that.

Anyway, because everything else has been so... not at all like it is described on tumblr, I thought this scene would be kind of vague, like "yeah he loves him, maybe like a brother, who knows, eh?", but nope. He's standing there saying "I thought the only thing that could make me happy would be the one thing I couldn't have, but maybe it's enough to say it", and then proceeds to tell Dean why he's the best, how he changed Cass, how Cass cares because of Dean, and then "I love you." And I'm just here with my mouth wide open, whispering the occasional "what the fuck?". THIS scene turned out to be exactly as gay as advertised, and I am blown away by that, but also, for me this is coming out of nowhere. I have not once got the impression that Cass wants anything more than friendship from Dean, there haven't been any pining looks when they get along, no cinematic hints (unless you count "previously on", in which case there have been hints twice in the entire show, but I just assumed that was queerbait because it's not actually part of the show), I haven't seen anything! I'd like to think my media gaydar is pretty good? Is it this broken? Or is it because it's a macho show at the core, so the hints have been different or non-existent? Is it because it's another time (even though it's so recent)? I'm so confused.

[fenrir-wolf-of-gotham]

K your understanding of Cass and Steph is bad enough that I need to correct it. No disrespect btw. Fandom Cass is a completely different character and mostly racist caricature of her actual character.

Cassandra Cain was introduced in the No Man’s Land arc of Detective Comics. She saved Papa Gordon’s life and got the job of Batgirl despite being completely nonverbal and not understanding English at all.

Her father is David Cain. An assassin who wanted her to be an assassin. She was never taught any language while growing up and instead learned to read body language so perfectly she knows exactly what you’re about to do before you do it. She shares this ability with her mother, Lady Shiva, who hates her. She ran away after killing a single person and that’s when we catch up with her.

She got adopted by Bruce and later got shafted by DC higher ups so badly she wasn’t even canon in the New 52. She’s recently regained a lot of success.

She’s been Batgirl, Black Bat, and Orphan. She is not Spoiler.

Do not trust anything Tumblr says about her. They get a lot wrong.

Cass recently fought Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman’s protege or whatever is named Cassie Sandsmark (not sure on the spelling there). That’s who you’re confusing her with. Cass only goes by Cass. Never Cassie.

Stephanie Brown started as a love interest for Tim Drake. She is a normal girl who took up vigilantism to “spoil” her dad’s -Cluemaster- crimes by telling people what he was planning and disrupting them.

She was Robin for a short bit but Bruce fired her after she didn’t listen to him and I’m told that whole arc reeked of the writers really hating Steph.

Steph was then Batgirl for a while but has recently returned to the mantle of Spoiler.

She dated Tim but they broke up.

They have both since come out as Bi.

Her and Cass are great friends and Barbara is like a mother to them both.

What I've learnt about the Batfamily from Tumblr

I know nothing about Batman - I have never read a comic, I have never watched a Batman series or cartoon or movie with him in it (except from that one scene at the end of wonder woman). This is what I have learnt about the members of the Batfamily entirely from tumblr and other social media.

1. Bruce Wayne

Bruce Wayne is Batman, and his superpower is being richer than God.

He lives in a mansion in Gotham, which is basically a city entirely made up of psychos

He cannot stop adopting children

Like I'm pretty sure he sees a child on their own with a vaguely traumatic backstory and has to adopt them.

Probably carries adoption papers in his utility belt for that very purpose

I'm not entirely sure how many children he has but that's okay because I don't think he knows either.

When he's in the mask his voice is really deep and he keeps saying "I'm Batman"

When he's not he acts like a complete idiot but probably tips a waitress by paying for their collage tuition

His parents are dead and this is very important - in a world of orphans, he is THE orphan

2. Dick Grayson

Bruce Wayne's oldest adopted son

He was in the circus as an acrobat until his parents died in front of him

I think they were murdered

He was the original Robin

Then he got bored or something and moved to somewhere called bludhaven which honestly sounds Norwegian, and renamed himself Nightwing.

Has extreme big brother energy

3. Jason Todd

Robin #2 because apparently there's a second one

I think he met Bruce after stealing the tires off Batman's car (the batmobile?) and then hitting him with a tire iron which is such a power move, especially for some random kid

He died but it's ok because he fell in a pit and got better

He renamed himself red hood and became a mass murderer for a bit

I think it was just a phase?

He was trained in the way of murder by someone called Talia. He either slept with her or was adopted by her.

I hope it's the second one because I know Bruce slept with her

Likes guns

4. Tim Drake

I think he stalked batman until he found out he was Bruce Wayne

In other words this random kid did what no megalomaniac with a grudge against the furry that routinely beats them up could

But then I think he was Bruce's neighbour pre-adoption so maybe he just noticed batman flying out from under the mansion each night, which says something problematic about his secret identity

He became robin too like how many robins does one city need?

Jason refers to him as 'replacement' which seems cold given 1. He himself was a replacement and 2. tim got replaced as well

I think he's Red Robin now, so clearly not too interested in change.

5. Damien Wayne

Bruce's biological son with the aforementioned assassin/murder trainer Talia.

Was in something called the League of Assassins but left to find his father, which given the name is the League of Assassins sounds like a smart life choice

Talia may have sent Damien to Bruce so she didn't have to deal with a teenager, but it also sounds like he left after an argument with his grandfather and League head-honcho Ra's so not sure whats going on there

Also Robin but I think at this point someone is taking the piss - possibly Batman

Feral Child(tm)

Likes swords

6. Cassandra (Cassie/Cass) Cain?

Maybe her surname is cain? Or maybe it's not?

I'm really confused because I'm pretty sure there is both a Cass and a Cassie in the Child-soldier Justice League and I think one of them is a bat-family member and one of them has something to do with Wonder Woman and they may or may not be the same person

Was an assassin involved in the same organisation as Jason and Damien

Is this where Bruce Wayne is finding his kids?

Was a Robin too (yay for feminism, boo for originality? Get some other names for your feral murder children Bruce)

Now called Spoiler and likes purple

May have at one point been batgirl?

7. Duke ???

Honestly I have no idea, I've just seen his name a couple of times

He was probably Robin at some point - they all appear to have been Robin at some point

I think he likes the colour yellow

8. Stephanie Brown

Another person that I have only vaguely seen the name of

She might have dated one of the batkids, Tim maybe?

May or may not be a batkid herself

May be batgirl, or maybe that was Cassandra, or maybe both. There have been so many robins nothing would surprise me

9. Barbara (Babs) Gordon

Daughter of a police commissioner

hacker

Her father may or may not be aware of her extracurriculars, but Commissioner Gordon has a massive flashlight for summoning batman when he needs help with a case so I don't think he has any room to talk

Goes by Oracle

Not a proper batkid but I doubt that stops her being on the family Christmas card

May have at one point been a Batgirl?

But at this point I'm just guessing everyone was batgirl

Maybe Duke was batgirl!

May use a wheelchair but I'm not certain

10. Alfred Pennyworth

Indeterminate age, may be immortal

Bruce's bulter

Raised Bruce Wayne, but still calls him 'Master Bruce'

Also refers to the batkids as 'master xx'

May or may not be sarcasm

English, ex-army and all-round exceedingly polite badass

Correction, he's English, I can say with confidence it is sarcasm

That is all the people I can think of, sorry if I missed anyone

[fantastic-nonsense]

As one of the few DC people on here I trust to read good fanfic, do you have any fanfic recs centered around Dick, Cass and/or Damian?

I'm super flattered you trust my fic taste and would like to assure you that while I've read a LOT of questionable fics in pursuit of scratching a particular plot or character dynamics itch, I refuse to rec fics to people that I don't consider good.

That being said: yes, I do. The short answer is that I keep an ongoing DC/Batfam fics recs list here (for those interested in the rest of my fic recs lists, you can find my recs list masterpost here. Word of caution for the Sherlock Holmes, Tolkien, and Doctor Who lists; I can’t necessarily vouch for their quality due to having not read the majority of the fics on the list in 7+ years, but all other lists should be good). I've also done a Cass recs list before here.

Now, picking out a few specifically that focus on one or more of those characters:

3:16: The knife pushes thin along Dick’s carotid artery, cupping the indent between neck and jawline—forcing him to angle his chin. The metal is warm, pulled with execution speed from under Damian’s pillow. “Okay,” Dick says quietly, tracking the intricacies of his own heartbeat—counting the space between breaths. “Guess I did need a shave.” (With faltering steps, Dick and Damian become Batman and Robin.) 

[60k, WIP. Originally written as a 'filling in the spaces between canon' fic, has now evolved into a 'rewriting canon but slightly to the left because Bruce actually died in this verse' fic. General warning for Morrison-era!Talia due to the canon being worked with]

bad signal: The rescue mission went well. Nightwing is safe. Everything should be alright. Right? 

[Note: explaining what this fic is actually about would lowkey ruin the excellent suspense and tension that the author builds up, but it can basically be summed up as "the Dick Grayson the Batfam rescues is not, in fact, alright, and that becomes A Problem for everyone else."]

do I dare disturb the universe?: Cassandra Cain was falling, and there were stars. When she landed, she found herself stranded in a universe where there never was a Batman. Good thing that she’s a detective.

Dragon and Daughter: Cassandra Cain isn't in Gotham during No Man's Land. She's in Canada five years earlier, and Richard Dragon is the one to stumble across her instead.

exactly how this grace thing works: Dick gets de-aged. You'd think this would be a routine thing.

if you just call me: “Dick.” She squeezed his shoulder. “Dick, look at me.” Slowly, as if he were pushing against a terrible force, he lifted his head. “I have known you since I was thirteen years old, and I have known you in a dozen other lifetimes, so I need you to believe me when I say that there is nothing you could do that would make me stop loving you.” Dick held her gaze. He looked like he was searching for something in her eyes, so Donna held still and hoped he found it. “Did you really know me in other lives?” he asked. Dick and Donna, after the action, through the years.

Making Time: Bruce does not remember anything leading up to this moment. He does not remember teaming up with Superman recently, nor does he remember being anywhere but Gotham proper. He does remember having Robin at his side. Robin, it turns out, is not there any longer. God does he hate magic. [Temporary Amnesia]

no matter how far you unbend: Laying there in bed, letting Catalina take what she wanted to take, an idea had occurred to Dick. This, he had thought, is an unhealthy relationship. In the weeks after Blockbuster's murder, Dick is trapped in a toxic relationship with Catalina. His family will do anything to rescue him.

[Note: deals with the events of Nightwing (1996) #93-95. TW for rape and abusive relationships. Heavy fic]

the city without stars in its skies: “Gotham is filthy,” Damian says flatly, honestly. “I understand now why Mother sent me here instead of coming herself.” Nightwing’s face is turned to the left, but the smile on his lips is audible. “It’s not all bad,” he says.

Damian thinks of Grayson, and the too-sweet donut he had given him, and the Chinese restaurant with the nice Asian lady and the park and the stray cat that had crossed through the grass in the darkness. “No,” he admits grudgingly, “I suppose not.”

(Or, in a world where he was never sent to live with his father, Damian al Ghul is contracted to assassinate one Dick Grayson.)

The R Stands for –: Damian pretends to focus on lacing up his boots as his father tugs Drake to his side, plants a gruff, casual kiss in his hair. Drake's lips curl into a pleased smile, and Damian yanks the strings so hard his palms burn.

[Note: incredible Damian-centric oneshot, focusing on his character growth from his time with the League through Batman and Robin era. Plays with both canon and fanon concepts in interesting ways]

the space between: What kind of parent forgets their own kid? Or: Ric, Damian, and some old forgotten adoption paperwork.

[Note: In which The Devil (DC) works hard, but the fans work harder to make the devil’s work bearable]

-----

Hope you enjoy reading!

[aingeal98]

Long rant post but stepping outside my fandom bubble and seeing people call stephcass sisters is always so jarring like I could be wrong but I feel like most of the people saying that haven't actually read the comics they star in and just consume fanon content where the "batfamily" is a monolith. That or they're just throwing the generic homophobic dismissal at them.

(Disclaimer that this is not me saying everyone should ship stephcass and that they hate the characters if they don't. I know a lot of cool Steph and Cass fans who don't care for the romance between them, and that's fine. People are allowed have different opinions and readings on characters and this is not a personal attack on any individual, just a late night ramble on an annoying fandom trend I've noticed.)

No one should be forced to like a ship and I understand complaints that recently they're treated as a bland duo with one personality trait each instead of the complex characters they used to be, but at the same time... Based on canon storylines so far for the past 20 years or so I genuinely can't think of a better love interest for Cass. I can't think of anyone who moved her development along more as a character outside of her actual family. And for Steph, I understand if people like Timsteph, but the feeling I got reading Batgirl-2000 compared to Tim focused stories is that the writers and the narrative respected Steph more. Even after she died. Also its like. Ridiculously easy to read most of their storylines as romantically coded. (batgirl 2000 mostly accidentally, future state deliberately like they were literally canon in that au, batgirls deliberately while also insisting that they're just besties) And even if you don't want to see it that way, saying they're sisters when a) they're not. Like canonically, they are in no way related they're just best friends who hallucinate each other and die in each others arms. And b) Cass explicitly defined Stephanie as a relationship outside of her familial bonds to Bruce, Babs, Tim, etc is just... Idk I've been in too many fandoms that hated f/f ships it gives me the ick.

Harper comes second imo in terms of best Cass romances based on what we've actually seen in comics, and recently yeah stephcass is being marketed as a duo to try and justify the lack of care towards them individually. But it just frustrates me that a decent amount of the dismissal towards them as 'batcest' or 'sisters' comes from the same place as the general dc fan attitude towards them. Which is that it's not worth it to actually get to know these characters and their stories outside of their assigned place in the batfamily fanon. It's why so many fans like to lump Steph in as another one of Bruce's kids and ignore her actual family and the complex and fraught history she has with both them and Batman. (DC does this too sometimes, but imo fanon did it first back during the Dickbats era.)

Obviously a lot of it is general stigma towards female characters and especially female friends who always get hit with the "let gals be pals" trope, but idk. I guess I'm just tired of seeing people talk about stephcass when they don't even care about them as more than side characters. If you're going to say you hate the ship because they're better off as besties at least give me some actual interesting thoughts on their dynamic beyond "Cute sisters who never fight or cause drama! We love women supporting women platonically 💜💜"

[kiragecko]

Wayne Family Adventures is great. It's frustrating. I'm so glad it exists. I want it to be better.

(I also curate my dash so well that I have NEVER encountered someone badmouthing the comic. If you've been reading enough complaints that my approval mixed with 'could do better' will hit a sore spot, please ignore OP.)

The series is similar to fanfiction in some really interesting and infuriating ways.

Mainly, it can't really exist in isolation. Or it can, but a LOT of the value is lost.

There's a moment in a recent comic where Tim and Steph talk about Damian being forced to compliment Tim, and only being able to say 'you have hair.' It's really funny. It also doesn't match what we've seen in the previous strips, where Damian is a reasonably pleasant child with a slightly formal speech pattern, who talks Cass out of mind control by reminding her of how wonderful she is. It also doesn't make sense in THAT STRIP, since Tim, Steph, and Damian are casually hanging out together in a restaurant(?), seemingly just because they enjoy each other's presence.

It's relying on us knowing enough about either nu52 or preboot canon to recognize that Tim and Damian don't get along.

It's constantly like that. Most strips deal with emotional issues the characters have. But they only have those issues for that strip! The rest of the time, they're healthy and available to do whatever necessary to help the spotlight character.

It relies on cthe main comics to provide the drama and angst, without actually being the same thing as them, at all.

Again, I LOVE it. I love being able to read comics with The Very Little Sister again! This is the type of comic I want! I wish it was more internally consistent, and maybe allowed the characters to be SLIGHTLY rougher around the edges (and the Sister and I will endlessly mock Dick and Tim's fashion choices. We do not consider them correct for the characters). But I completely agree that it is a thing that should exist, and I am so grateful it does.

I also think that it feels and works a lot like fanon? And that isn't bad? I mean, I read a lot of fanfic, and fancomics are AMAZING. DC paying people to write what reads exactly like a fancomic? I'm not complaining.

Basically, I think it is a B+ comic and hope it lasts another 20 years, while also wishing that it allowed background characters to be jerks, sometimes.

hi! i'm new to comics and i got in through reading your fics and wayne family adventures. i've since started reading more of the mainstream verse and i realized that most comic fans consider wfa to be totally fanon. you're one of the few i saw that disagrees. would you mind elaborating a lil on why? i'm too new to really form an opinion either way but i'd like to know your's!

(also yes i really did stalk your blog back years worth of posts i'm sorry! 😭😭)

Aw I love this! Welcome!

So I think it's really important to be clear on definitions here:

Canon means it's part of an official text. It's literally in a comic (or book or movie or other property) published or licensed by DC.

Fanon means it's made up by fans. That doesn't mean bad or good, it just means that it comes from fandom and is not part of the official text.

Wayne Family Adventures is an official licensed comic by DC, so by definition, it cannot be fanon. That doesn't mean everyone has to like it, but it's not a fan comic. It's an official DC product. It's not fanon.

Now, WFA isn't part of the main DCU canon. It takes place in a separate universe. The Jason in Batman #138 and the Jason in WFA are not the same and they are having very different experiences. (And I'm sure the Jason in WFA would be grateful if he knew.)

But that's no different than a comic that takes place in an alternate universe, like Dark Knights of Steel or DCeased, or a movie like Blue Beetle or a show like My Adventures with Superman. They all take place in their own universes, but all of those universes are canon. None of them are fanon.

What I think most people mean when they say WFA is fanon is that WFA draws on tropes and characterizations that are popular in fandom. Which...yes, absolutely. This is on purpose, and honestly, it pisses me off when people complain about it. (Not you, anon! Your question was lovely, you just triggered my unskippable cut scene of dialogue. Sorry lol.)

Wayne Family Adventures is probably the single best idea DC has had in the 20 years I've been reading comics. (The second best was the kids and YA graphic novel lines.)

I just checked, and WFA has 1.3 MILLION subscribers. That's more than every floppy comic starring Batman sells in a month, combined. It's more than literally any superhero comic has sold in decades - in this century! The combined strips have over A HUNDRED MILLION VIEWS. That is bonkerstown. That is a readership like DC hasn't seen since the 1970s. That is unparalleled success, and it's introducing characters like Kate Kane and Duke Thomas to a whole new audience.

Now, WFA was clearly designed to appeal to Batfans who were active on social media and fanfic sites like AO3 and Wattpad, and Webtoon readers. The readership of Webtoon is mostly young and female. Fandom as a whole is mostly female. The writer of WFA is female.

And maybe I'm not being fair here, but when I see people dismiss WFA as "just fanon," I always catch a whiff of "It's not a real Batman comic. It's a girl comic for girls."

I have spent the past 20 years begging DC (and Marvel, DC is not alone in this) to see women as a viable audience - as their largest potential growth audience! I have watched in dumbfounded frustration as they ignored the juggernaut success of Raina Telgemeier and Ngozi Ukazu and Alice Oseman running rings around the NY Times bestseller list and counted a 50k shipment here and there as a resounding triumph. I have literally seen them throw out survey responses from women because "those women had an agenda." (This is a true story. 2011 was rough, y'all.)

And all of a sudden, they gave us a comic actually catering to women and young people and fandom, and they put it on the most popular, current, modern platform for comics availably - and it's brilliant. It's smart and funny and stunningly drawn and every episode makes clever, inventive use of the scrolling format. They FINALLY gave us a girl comic for girls, and it's a masterpiece.

And yes, it riffs on fanon concepts. It also has its roots firmly in mainstream DCU canon. It references deep cuts. CRC Payne and StarBite know their shit. Jason Todd being a bookworm may be a fanon staple, but he does plenty of reading - including Jane Austen - in the 100% canon mainstream DCU comics.

It's not going to be for everything, because nothing is. It's completely fine if you don't like WFA. No one has to read it or enjoy it. If you're into Batman for the darkness and the crime and the ongoing plotlines and the angst, WFA won't be for you, and that's totally fine!

But to finally, finally be valued as a reader by DC, to have them do something smart and innovative and so, so well executed, and have the exact people they made it for dismiss it out of hand because Bruce has a "World's Okayest Dad" mug or whatever? Yeah, that chafes.