#and he probably doesn't even have dooku

[wantonlywindswept]

okay but like space jesus baby anakin declaring 'you can't kill a jedi' and the force is like 'oh shit fr? guess that's how it is now'

so jedi just. stop dying. they're confused but maybe okay with it? like some of the older ones still die of old age but when they're out fighting somehow they always make it through

palpatine is furious. he knows what's going on and tries to convince anakin that jedi CAN die, look at all these past instances, but anakin just looks at him like he's crazy 'okay but none of the jedi I'VE met ever die'

and palps is desperately trying to prove that jedi can die by actually killing jedi but like. no. they can't die. all his attempts to kill them fail.

and anakin is a nine year old child going 'well if i've never seen it happen then obviously it's not true'

10-year plan to wipe out the jedi foiled by one (1) overpowered boy confidently deciding that jedi can't die, seeing that jedi never die growing up, and thus continuing to believe that jedi cannot die even when there's a war on and jedi should DEFINITELY be dying

palpatine has time scheduled every night just so he can scream into the void in frustration

[maidenvault]

During my last rewatch of the prequels I was actually shocked by how much I've misremembered or decontextualized certain moments in my mind because of how they're often talked about in fandom as showing the Jedi as too arrogant, too bureaucratic, generally just burying their heads in the sand while everything goes bad etc. So I'm gonna try to address every individual scene that typically gets brought up to argue that this is an actual theme in Lucas's portrayal of the Order.

The Council doesn't take Qui-Gon's account of meeting a Sith seriously.

Mace and Ki Adi Mundi do both express doubt this guy could be a Sith. (Understandably! Historically they've never known Sith to be able to hide their existence, and for them to have survived totally in secret for a thousand years is a pretty wild thing for Qui-Gon to be so sure of.)

BUT Yoda admits that the dark side is hard to see, and Mace assures Qui-Gon they'll do everything to find out the identity of the attacker. Later he's ordered to go back to Naboo and try to draw out Maul to discover more. Qui-Gon accepts this and doesn't ask for backup. Why should he? He held his own against Maul before, and Maul's probably not gonna show himself again to face a ton of Jedi. They end up missing the chance to learn who trained Maul because of how things go down, but Qui-Gon's death isn't the result of the Council mishandling the situation.

At the funeral, Yoda says the presence of one Sith means there's another out there. They know they've got to be on guard now and will be, but they've got no more leads for now.

2. Qui-Gon's not here to free slaves.

There's this idea that slavery existing on Tatooine shows the Order is apparently too tied up doing shady things for self-interested politicians (footage not found) to help the people who really need it. But Padme's shocked to know the Skywalkers are slaves for a reason. The truth is there isn't a lot of slavery in the galaxy at this time because the Jedi have helped keep it that way for centuries only by working with the Republic. In TCW we see that Zygerrian slavers have a particular hatred of Jedi because they're literally The Anti Slavery People and did so much of the work to crack down on their trade. But Tatooine is controlled by the Hutts and they simply don't have the resources to start a war with them.

(And honestly, it's crazy how people talk like Qui-Gon's a monster for honestly and apologetically telling Anakin no, that's not why he's here. This is a child he's already indebted to and who has a hero-worshipping idea of Jedi, it would be fucked up for him not to be clear about how he can't help him and his mom.)

3. They doubt Dooku could be behind the assassination attempt.

This I understand shows the Jedi to be a little naive. But they knew Dooku as a good man, and at this point he and his followers are still putting on a show of wanting to secede for idealistic reasons (and a few of them, manipulated by Dooku, actually do have good intentions). Only later do the Jedi learn they're illegally building an army before they've even officially left the Republic and clearly have no interest in the peaceful resolution Padme's been advocating for. And they only find this out because they have Obi-Wan investigate the assassin and this very quickly leads him to Dooku.

4. "Arrogance, yes. A trait more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."

In context, this line from Yoda is clearly not meant to be taken so seriously. Obi-Wan says he fears Anakin is too arrogant, and this is Yoda's light-hearted way of telling him not to be so hard on him. Part of training a Padawan is learning to trust them so they can grow, and Obi-Wan perhaps needs the reminder that he isn't done learning himself.

Of course Yoda saying this could be partly motivated by them having been caught off guard before by the existence of Darth Maul and the dark side clouding their awareness, as we're told repeatedly throughout the PT they know is a problem. But it's kind of contradictory to take this as confirmation that this is a serious fatal flaw of theirs. If someone acknowledges their own arrogance then they're aware of their ability to be wrong, which means they can't actually be that arrogant. If truly meant in a general sense and not just as a gentle reproof of Obi-Wan, it's a pretty self-deprecating comment coming from Yoda.

5. "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist."

Chief Librarian Jocasta Nu gives this haughty response to Obi-Wan looking for Kamino, a system that's not in the Jedi Archives. So being so overly confident in the infallible knowledge of the Jedi, he takes her word for it and totally drops this lead.

Except no, he goes to someone older and wiser to figure out what this actually means. And he and Yoda are forced to conclude that the unthinkable - a trusted person among them somehow had reason to erase information from the archive - must nonetheless be what happened. This is honestly an exception that proves the rule: Kamino, and we can assume only Kamino, is missing from the archive only because it was removed, which is so suspicious it just shows he must be on the right track to discovering something. Jocasta is kind of snooty about it but theirs obviously is supposed to be one of the most accurate and complete databases in the galaxy.

6. Obi-Wan doesn't believe what Dooku tells him about the Senate.

For one thing, in this conversation Dooku's lying about basically everything but this. And I can't ever stress enough that Palpatine is a threat unlike anything the Jedi have ever dealt with before, who's already taken control of so much before they even know they're fighting anything, so the idea that a Sith is controlling the Senate would be really hard for anyone to believe.

Still, we know Obi-Wan reports this to the Council anyway. But it's a vague statement and they still don't have any information to act on. Palpatine soon has them very busy putting out fires in the war, and naturally fighting the Separatists who are led by Sith seems the best way for them to get to the bottom of what exactly is going on with the dark side. And they do finally turn their attention to how power-hungry Palpatine is getting once the war is nearly over and they've got the bandwidth for it, and think about what they might have to do if he's the threat to their democracy they fear, but of course he's too many steps ahead of them all the time.

---

So basically, what we see the Jedi being so guilty of in these examples are thought crimes. When confronted with the crazy explanation that happens to be true, their instinctive reaction is "No, I don't think that's possible." And then they do their due diligence to uncover as much of the truth as they can anyway. And Yoda, the Grand Master of them all, is often the first to admit that their first assumptions could be wrong. But Palpatine wouldn't be a good villain if his moves were predictable and he couldn't get an advantage over the good guys - that's just how storytelling works sometimes and it's not that deep.

It honestly felt stupid typing so much of this out because it's 90% just describing what actually happens in these scenes. But I guess it's a lot to ask that people actually carefully watch the films they discuss. 😒

[phoenixyfriend]

Something something Dooku survives the Clone Wars, the Imperial Era, and even a few years past the OT...

And Luke finds him while looking for More Jedi to help him teach.

Chewie recognizes the decrepit old bastard, and there is yelling, but being A Hundred And Nine has mellowed Dooku out in his own dusty hermit hut, on the other side of the galaxy from Ben and Yoda's hermit huts.

All the Jedi ghosts are unhappy with this but Dooku is… not REFORMED, technically, but he's old and tired, even if the Force keeps him a bit more healthy and energized than the average Old Guy, and humans routinely live to pretty unreal old ages in the gffa anyway so really 109 for them is probably like 85 for us.

But yeah. Old mountain hermit (to contrast the desert and the swamp) who's been in hiding from That Dick Sidious since he lost both hands to babyface Vader in 19BBY.

@jebiknights (Sammie) said:

Dooku finds out Luke was also trained by Yoda and is like "oh Yoda finally gave me a younger brother like I always wanted"

Alternately he could probably get Luke to call him Great-Great-Grandfather.

Sammie: Funniest option is he's both which makes Luke even more confused lmao Ghost Obi wan in the background like "stop fucking using non Jedi terms to describe Jedi relationships it doesn't fucking work"

Luke calls him, irreverently, Gramps, but also. Leia definitely recognizes him as a Recent Historic Political Figure, but not until AFTER Luke has already integrated Dooku into his new Jedi school.

"Why did Chewie let him do that?" He thought it was funny. (And/or if you like Chewku, you can make this some sordid exes thing.)

"Why did R2 let him do that?" Best keep evil man in electrical prodding range.

Sammie: Leia comes to the school for her biweekly Jedi lessons and sees the newest teacher was a traitor to the Republic 😭

Best if they can find Quin or Ventress out in the black. Partly because like. Does this make Ventress their step-grandma (Quinlan's on-off something) or their great-great-aunt (Dooku's 4th apprentice)?

Sammie: Both and also Luke's niece. Luke has a migraine by the end of it and Leia is ready to disown herself. Ventress: I didn't realize the Jedi were so incestuous Luke: war flashbacks to before he realized Leia was his sister

Ahsoka in the corner with Spacebucks, five years late "Y'all suck. Hey, Quin."

Sammie: I know you likely didn't bring up Quinlan thinking of QuinObi but now I'm imagining Quinlan declaring himself their grandpa when he meets the twins bc 1) he loves to cause chaos 2) he does/did consider Anakin his kid even if not in neat non Jedi terms and 3) Obi-Wan thought being considered Anakin's father made him sound old, and Quinlan needs to harass him beyond the grave

Dooku must have a cane that the ghosts heckle him about because He Clearly Wants To Be Just Like Yoda.

@lyntergalactic (Lyn) said:

I feel like evil gramps could really bring out Ahsoka's snark once she shows up and that would be highly entertaining Ahsoka is simultaneously his most and least favorite grandchild

She's the most experienced as a Jedi (Ventress went full Sith, not just leaving the Order but following the tenets like Ahsoka, and Quinlan isn't in the lineage), has never Fallen unless you count that thing on Mortis.

Also she WILL bitch Dooku out at this age, and honestly he kind of appreciates the brutal honesty.

Ahsoka: I'm not a Jedi. All the old people: Lies

She brings up the Hondo incident since nobody else is putting in the effort. Anakin and Obi-Wan COULD as ghosts but nooooooo she has to do everything around here.

Sammie: Oh but it sets them off so hard they can barely get the story off from laughing NGL I think the twins did not understand how truly annoying Obi-Wan and Anakin could be together until the Hondo story gets told.

They are The Worst.

[ahsoka-in-a-hood]

But anyway the idea that Vader is too far into the dark to ever return is probably antithetical to the general idea of star wars, since, you know, the ending, but there was definitely a sliding escalation into him being convinced he'd gone too far this time. Even in AotC he has this moment of sheer panic and despair at fucking up supremely, but between Padme's acceptance and getting swept up with events he manages to brush it under the rug for a big. He can continue that uneasy trend when he kills Dooku and stuff, but he feels locked in when he helps kill Mace. At that point I think he gets into the mindset that he's gone too far this time but, actually, at this point I think if someone had talked him down, Obi Wan or Padme or Ahsoka- it might have worked. After he sacks the temple, now that- that is a point he refuses to return from, not without collecting his prize, no matter what anyone else can say. He's paid too high a price already. That wasn't done in fury, or panic, that was inescapably a choice. It can't have been for nothing. Still even then, he probably thought that if he just got what he wanted, if Padme asked him to walk away after that, then fine, but not yet, so she should shut up and stay out of it until the bargain is completed.

After he's killed her too, and Obi Wan left him, that's when he decides he just going to be evil now forever. Still, he will eventually come to the conclusion that he doesn't have to do all that. That it's never too late.

[gffa]

What are your thoughts regarding the “Lost Twenty” of the Jedi Order?

I think it's significant that the Jedi not only create busts to remember them, but display them in the library where anyone can walk right by them--a reminder to everyone, adults and children alike, that it's possible to leave the Jedi life and that path is perfectly valid, the Jedi won't stop you, they'll remember you fondly. When Jocasta is talking with Obi-Wan about Dooku in the deleted scene, she literally strokes the bust of him and speaks with such a fond smile about how his politics took him on a path away from the Jedi:

Or there's a scene in Dooku: Jedi Lost (Disney supplemental canon, so take it as you will) where Yoda and another Jedi Master are walking a bunch of children through the Archives and they ask about the busts. Yoda takes the time to point out that asking about the Lost Twenty is a good thing for the kids and speaks highly of them, that many of them went on to become leaders of some kind, some chose to teach, but most simply vanished, and the whole scene is speaking well of all of those choices.

The Jedi aren't ashamed that some Masters chose to leave, they're not afraid of teaching their children about that even, which says a lot about how they're not forcing this life on others, how they're not trying to hide that other paths are available for Jedi, they're supporting that. And I like that it's specifically the Lost Twenty Masters over the course of their history, because it makes sense to me that there would probably have been far more Jedi who left as younglings or even Knights, when they were still figuring themselves out, because being a Jedi takes a huge commitment, that's one of the things Star Wars as a whole emphasizes, that the Force and the Jedi way is a very serious thing, it takes a lot of dedication, it's not just a whim. And being able to touch and use something as powerful as the Force should require a huge commitment, especially because of how it works based on your thoughts and feelings, you have to be mentally stable to use it, that's literally just how it works. But by the time you're a Master, you've had time to really consider your life, you've had time to question whether you really want this, you've had time to commit yourself truly to this path--and you can still leave! They'll still give you a bust in the library! It just doesn't happen very often because, by that point, a Master would have been asked to undergo several Trials to make sure this is what they want, to make sure this life is right for them, and given a lot of time to consider it. So, that we know the Lost Twenty were a thing in the Jedi Order, that it was significant enough to include in the worldbuilding and specifically how it was included (in a positive way), says a lot about who the Jedi are and how they treat those who leave. I mean, look at Dooku in AOTC, Mace and Ki-Adi-Mundi spoke positively about him right up until he was revealed to be a Sith Lord, because they trust Jedi who decide this path isn't for them. And if you go by Padawan (and possibly Tales of the Jedi), Dooku was STILL VISITING after he chose to leave:

Not only that, but he was there to talk with the Council because they still valued him:

Or in Tales of the Jedi, he was there during the events of The Phantom Menace because he asked Qui-Gon about the Sith he ran into, showing that he was still welcome:

He was also there after Qui-Gon's death, by which time he was already under Sidious' tutoring, so he would have had to have left the Jedi by the time of Qui-Gon's funeral:

Take Disney era canon as you will, of course, but even without it, the Lost Twenty speak well of the Jedi and how they treat those who decide to leave, even the ones that have spent decades committing themselves to this path. The Jedi are open about how you can always walk away, you can always change your mind. They ask that you be serious about it, but they make sure even the younglings know that it's always an option!

[tossawary]

Having finished the first "Jedi Apprentice" book... some thoughts based purely on that one book and the movies...

On one hand, I do think that no one should have ever let Qui-Gon Jinn be responsible for a child. Like, yeah, the Jedi Council keeps sending children into horribly dangerous situations all the time (because it's kids media, this is how kids media works), so I will not put Obi-Wan repeatedly being in lethal physical danger entirely on Qui-Gon (it's a little bit on him); there's an institutional issue here. But, for the love of goodness, that aside, Qui-Gon is obviously just not currently equipped to take responsibility for and help a child's emotional and mental wellbeing.

On the other hand, I do think that this was... decently written? The characterization is clear. I do understand why Qui-Gon Jinn thinks the way that he does even if I find a lot of his thoughts infuriating and strongly disagree with his conclusions. His past experiences with a padawan fucked him up and it's coloring all of his current choices, and he knows it but doesn't want to examine exactly how. PLUS there is the cultural / institutional element of even Jedi initiates being deadly little killing machines and padawans regularly being sent into danger. Qui-Gon grew up this way, he evidently views some element of this as normal and acceptable. This is along the lines of what happened to HIM as a child.

And that's interesting. Obi-Wan Kenobi will later turn around and make some of the exact same mistakes with Anakin Skywalker.

PLUS there's the knowledge that Qui-Gon was trained by Dooku and... I have to believe that Dooku was probably worse, honestly. Like, I have not read the additional materials that might show off that master-apprentice relationship, but Dooku became a damn Sith Lord who waged war against the galaxy because he thought that accelerationalism would fix shit, which suggests to me that he was probably a strict and demanding master, probably not especially emotionally available, especially emotionally intelligent, and/or especially respectful of, like, other people's opinions or feelings. I won't assume at the moment that it was intentionally abusive or that there wasn't some affection there; I AM going to assume that the Dooku & Qui-Gon dynamic was in some way dysfunctional as all get out, though.

Qui-Gon is actively refusing to take a padawan because he knows that he's not in a good place for one and doubts his own teaching abilities! He really does not want to be responsible for a child! (And Yoda is going, "Fix him, I can," and by "I", Yoda means "12-year-old Obi-Wan Kenobi".) Unfortunately, Qui-Gon is so desperate to avoid Xanatos happening again that he shies away from taking even temporary guardianship of Obi-Wan Kenobi for the duration of a transport flight.

So, while knowing that Qui-Gon Jinn is going to fuck up even harder in later books, my current vibes for him are... He's like one of those unintentionally toxic parents who is doing their best most of the time but honestly can't see what exactly is fucked up about their behavior, because THEIR parents were WAY worse and even more abusive, and also general society generally agrees that "not starving your child" / "not beating your child with a belt" / "not causing any physical harm" is the peak of "good" parenting. I would bet that Dooku's expectations for Qui-Gon's skills and behavior as a 12/13-year-old were extremely high.

So, Qui-Gon means well, and is probably internally holding himself up against Dooku and correctly seeing that he is WAY better with kids than Dooku, but unfortunately, Dooku REALLY sucked as a teacher and guardian. (Like, Dooku may have successfully passed on skills, but the whole experience was generally volatile and unpleasant for Qui-Gon.) So "way better than Count Fucking Dooku" still lands us all firmly on: "Oh, shit, Qui-Gon fucking sucks at this, actually."

And Qui-Gon KNOWS he sucks at this! He knows he's not good with Obi-Wan, even if he doesn't fully grip his own position and impact. He's busy risking his own life and nearly dying multiple times fighting pirates and mining overseers right now in this first book, so he doesn't exactly have the time or the tools to fix his shit right now, even if he knew where to get started and actually wanted to rip open those old wounds. (And he does not.)

[antianakin]

Pong Krell. It’s universally agreed that he deserved worse than what he got and I get that. I just wished we got to see what he was like before he Fell. Did he always hate clones, was it gradual? Did he suspect something off and went over paranoid?

I’ll say this one and I’ll say this probably a thousand more times but I wished the creators focused on more details with characters. It’s absolutely fascinating that they created a Jedi that Fell but did nothing with it besides outright evil.

How other Jedi reacted to learning that a fellow Jedi betrayed everyone? How did the Republic?

I just wished they did more with him than just, yeah that dude was a dick and killed clones.

Yeah, it's one of the things I don't like as much about TCW, the extremely episodic nature of it means that there really is never any build-up to anything or lasting impact from anything. Unless it's happening within one of the 2-4 episode arcs, we RARELY get to see any kind of build-up or fallout. It's one of the major issues with Barriss, too, we see her ONCE in season 2 and she's calm, kind, methodical, and selfless. And then three seasons later in season 5 she's suddenly ruthless, selfish, doubting everything and everyone, merciless, etc. There is NO BUILD UP to that radical 180 to her character and there's no real exploration of how Ahsoka really feels about that particular betrayal afterwards, the focus in later episodes after the Wrong Jedi focuses only on Ahsoka feeling betrayed by the COUNCIL and her feelings about that. Nothing since TCW has ever touched it either (Rebels, Mandalorian, the Ahsoka show). Satine's death never really comes up again after it happens aside from Bo-Katan being an asshole. Obi-Wan goes from being totally fucked up about Maul coming back to being chill enough to take on Maul and Savage alone and winning without us getting to see him actually deal with those emotions.

Pong Krell and the Umbara arc IN GENERAL falls into this category easily (so do the Zyggeria and the Deception arc tbh). Krell is such a basic evil character, there's so little nuance to him and we never get to see the Jedi react to the revelation that one of their own turned at all. Dooku turned after he had already left the Order as far as any of them really know, but Krell was still IN the Order when he decided to betray them and it would've been really interesting to see the impact of that on them. It would've been ESPECIALLY interesting to explore that more during the Wrong Jedi arc in particular in how the Jedi feel like they can't trust their own people not to betray them anymore after Dooku and Krell.

Krell is presented with like. Zero nuance. He is just unequivocally evil and despite Anakin greeting him in a friendly way at the beginning, the visuals tell you this dude's no good right from his first appearance. There isn't really any chance that he's going to be a good guy at all. So all we are left with are headcanons.

And I remember discussing my Krell headcanons somewhere, but I think it might've been on a Discord server I've since left, so I unfortunately cannot find them again. So I'll try to remember them and immortalize them here, I guess.

Here's the thing about Krell. NO ONE suspects him. So he cannot be overtly acting like a bigoted asshole from the jump at any point, he HAS to be acting in such a way that it's not trickling out to the other clones and to the Jedi themselves that Krell is an absolute monster. Even Fives takes a moment to decide that Krell is suspicious and only brings up Krell's casualty numbers after he sees Krell's behavior for a minute and combines that knowledge with what he's now personally experiencing and is starting to come to conclusions based on that. He doesn't go into the relationship thinking Krell is worse than any other Jedi already.

And based on what we know of EVERY OTHER FALLEN JEDI (Dooku, Anakin, Barriss), they didn't start out as monsters. Dooku was a highly respected Jedi Master who seems to have had a really positive relationship with Yoda and Qui-Gon and simply became disillusioned with the Senate and his care for the people of the galaxy got twisted into something darker over time. Barriss was kind, selfless, compassionate, brave, and resourceful, and it was the war that caused her to start letting her fears and pain consume her into turning on the Jedi. Anakin was kind and spent years having his fears and doubts twisted into selfishness and greed and darkness that allowed him to justify murder and genocide for power. So it wouldn't make sense to me that Pong Krell wouldn't fall into the same pattern where he was once kind and good and selfless and brave, but that the circumstances surrounding the war caused him to lose faith and fall.

My headcanon is that he lost an entire battalion early in the war, much like we see happen to Plo Koon during the Malevolence arc and that that loss and failure just BROKE him. Krell DID care about the clones, he cared about his men, and he FAILED them all. And I think that he saw all of these clones dying by the dozens in all of the other battalions and instead of choosing to let go of his pain and fear and lean into his compassion, he chose to distance himself from them entirely to make it hurt less. If he didn't care about the clones, if he just saw them as the cannon fodder that the Senate treated them all as, then it would hurt less when they died. Maybe the Senate itself even dragged him over the coals for that initial loss. Or perhaps it was the opposite, maybe most of his battalion was killed, but it ultimately ended in a victory anyway because they were forced to just keep going despite the consequences. And so Krell decides to enter this mindset where he is disillusioned with the Senate and just CANNOT allow himself to care about the clones, because it won't change what the Senate is going to do to them anyway, so he may as well just treat them the same way.

And this wouldn't have happened overnight. It wouldn't have been a sudden 180 where he decided he was just going to treat them like shit. But he maybe decided to put some more professional distance between himself and his new battalion, not get close to them, not use their names (although he still knows them, still remembers them all). Maybe one day they're in a tricky situation and all of his options are bad, he HAS to sacrifice some of his men in order to salvage the situation at all, and it's a choice between a full retreat that he KNOWS the Senate won't take well, or sacrificing the men to achieve the victory. So he sacrifices the men. It's not an entire battalion, it's not even a whole company, but it's more than it would've been if he'd retreated. Maybe next time, there's a choice between going back to save some of the men even if it poses a risk to his own life or the mission or something, and he chooses not to go back for them because the mission is more important, or he rationalizes that his life is more important as the Jedi General. And it's just more and more little decisions like that that add up over time to being able to see the clones as nothing more than tools.

The disillusionment with the Senate leads to him sort-of agreeing with things Dooku and the Separatists have said and he can look at the war and realize that it's entirely possible that the Republic is going to LOSE, and he CANNOT be the one who loses again, so maybe he starts bouncing around the concept of maybe switching sides. And of course initially he rejects the idea. He's a Jedi, he won't just abandon the Republic, he can't be a traitor, who in the Separatist side would ever trust him anyway. But once that seed is planted, it doesn't go away and it keeps coming back up and he keeps finding ways to rationalize why it might be a good idea and then deciding not to do it over and over again. Until one day, he can't convince himself that it's a bad idea or that it wouldn't work. He tells himself it's the ONLY option, if he doesn't change sides then he's dead. But Dooku WON'T trust him unless he can prove that he's not on the Republic's side, so he has to come up with a plan to gain their trust. And what better way to earn that trust than to ensure a Separatist victory in an important campaign by double-crossing the Republic.

And once he's chosen to go down that path, it's even EASIER to stop caring about the clones because, well, they're all dead anyway. The Republic is going to lose, the clones are all dead men walking no matter what, so why bother caring about them or trying to keep them alive? He can't lose so often that the Jedi or the Senate become suspicious of him, of course, but it's REALLY easy then to get to Umbara and treat the clones like crap and turn them against each other and intentionally try to get them all killed. They're dead anyway, he's not the one killing them really, is he, the Senate is, the Jedi are, the war is. They were dead from the moment they were created in that test tube because they were created for this specific purpose. It's not his fault.

And much like Barriss turns against the Jedi in part because she did LOVE the Jedi and was devastated by what she saw happening to them and the pain of seeing her people forced to become something they were never supposed to be, as much as her actions were intended as some kind of message to try to sort-of save the Jedi from a course of action she saw as their downfall, I think that Krell turns on the clones because at some point he DID care about them. A lot. And that care became his downfall, the pain at what was being done to them just absolutely gutted him and it threw him down a path that ultimately led him to turn against the very people whose deaths had hurt him so badly just a few short years ago.

Krell might not have been the most effusive or emotional person prior to the war or anything, he might've been a more reserved person similar to Mace or Dooku or Luminara, but I think he probably was a perfectly good Jedi who was kind and selfless and compassionate once upon a time.

And none of the headcanons above have even touched what his relationships with other JEDI must have been like. It's just as possible that he did have friends and people he considered family among the Jedi. Maybe he had a padawan once at some point. And maybe all of those people had died by the time we get to Umbara. Maybe he had to watch a lot of the people he was closest to just fall like flies, and so it starts feeling like nothing matters. Maybe one of the Jedi who died on Geonosis was a former padawan of his, but Krell himself obviously wasn't there and the pain of THAT loss and the guilt he feels at not having been there (even though this padawan had been knighted for a while and there was a good reason Krell wasn't there that day) just sticks with him, too, and he never quite manages to let that go, either.

I think a lot of people choose to just headcanon Krell as having just always been kind-of an asshole even when he was a Jedi, but that doesn't work for me. If Krell was always an asshole, I feel like the Jedi would've stepped in at some point before the war even HAPPENED and tried to manage that situation. And it doesn't match up with the way pretty much every other fallen Jedi has ever been written, where they were GOOD PEOPLE once upon a time who saw awful things happen that they couldn't stop or had an awful thing happen TO them that they couldn't stop and the pain of that experience consumes them to the point that they spiral into darkness as a result. Krell should be the same way, which means he likely was a perfectly good normal Jedi before the war. He would've been kind, he might've been good with younglings (he's tall, maybe he was the one the younglings went to all the time for piggy back rides, maybe he often taught dual wielding to padawans who asked because of how clearly proficient he is at it), he might've taught a student of his own successfully, he would've been wise and selfless and compassionate, he would've loved the Jedi and the people of the galaxy.

Like, to be frank, if Tales of the Jedi HAD to explore a fallen Jedi story, they should've explored Krell instead of Dooku. Dooku has been explored before, we know quite a lot about him and his motivations and his backstory, but Krell, as you noted, is left a mystery and is stuck in the realm of being just purely evil for the sake of the story they were telling in this one arc. Krell needed more nuance in a way Dooku just did not.

[jedi-enthusiast]

Yk one thing I barely see talked abt is the fact that Mace Windu's lineage and thus legacy is one of the longest Order 66 surviving ones in Star Wars WHO STAYED TRUE TO THE JEDI ORDER'S PRINCIPLES.

Like damn, Mace rly managed to establish a liniage of highly competent and compasionate Jedi. The Shatterpoint Lineage either outlasted or survived for nearly as long as the Disaster Liniage who pretty obviously stopped truly representing Jedi with Obi-Wan (only rly returninh to the true jedi way with Luke if ya see him as part of that lineage)

Like- who do we have in the Shatterpoint lineage ?

-Master of the Jedi Order , died trying to save the galaxy from the Sith

-Former council member, died saving her padawan from her brainwashed men

-Rebel Jedi training a student despite everything that went down , died saving his padawan & loved ones from a giant explosion

-THE GUY LITTERALY ABLE TO GET THE CHANCE TO FORCE TIME-TRAVEL WHO SEND HIMSELF INTO EXILE TO PROTECT THOSE HE LOVES & THE GALAXY

And who do we have in the Disaster Lineage :

-Guy with questionable methods who did his best

-OBI-WAN who rly doesn't need any explanation (who's also the last true Jedi with expection of Luke (if you counf him) to come out of this lineage)

-a genocial manbaby with an alergy for any sort of moral code or basic logic

-a pick me shitting on her own adoptive family, who isn't even a Jedi if we are being honest (sry Ahsoka, but your character to assasinated to a point where I just can't anymore)

And honestly ? It says a LOT that Mace Windu's lineage stands as pretty much last bastion of a true Jedi Lineage from the old Order.

Agreed 100%

And ngl I find it so funny that people constantly praise the Shatterpoint lineage- (Depa, Kanan, Ezra) -and then shit on Mace like, my dude, WHO DO YOU THINK TAUGHT DEPA AND PASSED ON THOSE VALUES TO HER AND THEREFORE HIS LINEAGE???

But no, Mace's lineage is by far the best imo---I love Obi-Wan and Luke and Yoda, but they get negative points for having not one but TWO genocidal fascists in the lineage- (Dooku and Anakin) -and then someone who thinks the Jedi brought on their own genocide- (Ahsoka) -and then someone who decided that the fate of the galaxy was less important than her feelings and probably kickstarted another war- (Sabine, apparently, since Felony shoe-horned her into the lineage).

Meanwhile the Shatterpoint lineage has the head of the Order who almost won the Clone Wars and stopped the Empire from being created, who only failed because he was betrayed- (Mace) -then an amazing and empathetic general who was literally so selfless that she sacrificed herself to save her padawan- (Depa) -then someone who fought against the Empire, successfully overcame his own issues to both train a padawan and then forgive those who he thought willingly murdered his family, and then sacrificed himself to save his family and give the Rebellion a leg up on the Empire for the Battle of Lothal- (Kanan) -and finally someone who let go of all his grief, rejected the Dark Side SEVERAL TIMES, and then sentenced himself to a life in exile to protect the galaxy from a genocidal fascist- (Ezra).

Like...there's really no competition here.

In the Imperial Era, Mace was probably sitting back as a Force-ghost, watching the Disaster lineage fuck up the galaxy and then have to fix it all over again, smugly staring down Obi-Wan and Yoda like-

Mace, smugly: Hm, did you know that today Kanan taught Ezra how to connect with animals? I'm so proud of them.

Obi-Wan, watching Anakin commit even more mass murder and Ahsoka blame the Jedi for Anakin's actions: Must be nice.

Yoda, staring down Dooku, who literally tried to take over the whole galaxy with a fascist regime: Yes. Nice, it must be.

[varpusvaras]

Bail got the news in the middle of his breakfast.

Onaconda was the one to call him, looking so uncharacteristically concerned that Bail knew immadiately that something big had happened.

"Castle Serenno was attacked a few hours ago", Onaconda told him. "They have reported Count Dooku dead."

Bail wasn't sure what to think. He didn't agree with many of the Count's political views, but he was well aware that the man was still widely respected even in circles that disagreed with him even more than Bail did. An assassination would've been bad enough, in the times of rising tensions they were living now, but for someone to go as far as to destroy the entire Castle?

It seemed like someone truly wanted the Count gone, and wanted to be sure.

"Is there any information on the attackers?" Bail asked, already opening up the news as he spoke.

"No", Onaconda said. "No one has claimed the attack. There were sightings of some ships, of course, since the attack was so large, but they have not been linked to any Republic world so far."

So it seemed. Bail glanced at the news he had found.

"This is alarming", he said.

"You don't need to tell me that", Onaconda said. "If the culprit is not found soon, there will be even worse times ahead when people start to blame each other. I'm not sure if the current situation can handle something like that."

Bail sighed. This was not how he had wanted to start his day.

---

"The Jedi want to investigate the attack, I heard", Mon said. "The Count was a former Master, after all. They probably feel like this was personal, in some way, even if the Count was not part of the Order at the time of the attack."

"I heard as well", Bail nodded. "Though the Chancellor hasn't brought it up. He is still looking into other options for investigation."

Mon frowned slightly.

"Odd", she said. It was, Bail had to agree. Usually, Chancellor Palpatine was more than ready to trust the Jedi in situations like this, but now, he had not even had a meeting with them regarding the matter.

It was odd, certainly.

Mon glanced around a bit, and leaned closer.

"Has the Chancellor...seemed somewhat strange otherwise, as well, after the attack?" She asked, quietly.

"He is probably just nervous", Bail said. "The Count was a central figure in the anti-Republic movement, after all. It is rather easy to see this as an aggression from the Senate's side. The Chancellor wants to avoid any armed conflicts."

Mon hummed.

"You're probably right", she said. "Something about all of this just...strikes me as weird."

"I know", Bail said. "I'll try and propose a meeting with the Jedi for the Chancellor. We need to solve this issue quickly, before more arise from it."

He did agree with her. Something about all of this was indeed weird. Bail just didn't know what it was, exactly.

---

"The Chancellor declined the meeting?" Breha frowned. "Does he think that the Jedi wouldn't be impartial enough?"

"Most likely, though I don't think that there is a group that is impartial enough for both sides", Bail said. "The only solution would be to get into an agreement with worlds that have taken part in the movement. The Chancellor has just been rather avoidant with it all."

Breha was quiet for a moment.

"That is quite...worrisome", she said. "Do you think that he could know something more?"

It was a thought Bail had not wanted to voice himself.

"I'm not sure", he said. "But it's a...possibility. Everything is, at this point. I am just worried about the fact that nothing is happening. This could all get out of hand, quickly."

"There has not been any signs of true aggression before this", Breha pointed out. "It would take time for them to respond. We still have time. The Chancellor might be pressured into taking action, and doesn't want to rush it."

"Of course he doesn't", Bail said. "We still need to do something, before anything worse happens."

---

Bail hadn't expected at all what happened next.

He was more than sure that nobody had.

The information came flooding in everywhere all at once. Palpatine was long gone by the time people were sent to apprehend him on his apartment on Coruscant.

By the time they had tracked his ship outside the Core, there was nothing left than depris.

The records recovered from Palpatine's ship showed more of the same ships that had taken out Count Dooku.

This time, though, they all knew who the ships belonged to.

"A clone army?" Padmé shook her head. "I can't believe it."

Neither could Bail. A whole army, designed to go against the armies of the Separatist movement, and in the end, betray everyone without having any say in it, and turn the Republic into a tyrannical Empire?

It sounded impossible.

But it wasn't.

Bail had not felt this lost in a while.

---

The Jedi sent a message to the Senate after arriving to Kamino.

The City where the cloning facilities had been were completely empty. Everything had been taken. There was not a single clone left.

The Kaminoans, who had been there, had said that the clones had risen up, taken the city for themselves, and then fled, and no one had any idea where they were.

"I cannot fault them", Breha said. "If they found out that they were made for an awful purpose like this...I cannot fault them for doing what they did."

Neither could Bail.

"I just wished we knew where they were", he said. "Though I can understand if they want to stay hidden. I hope that they will find whatever they need to survive."

"So do I", Breha said. "If they ever want to come back...then Alderaan is open to them. They didn't ask for any of this, so we must do whatever we can to repay them."

Bail couldn't agree more.

---

The clones didn't come back. Sometimes there was a sighting of them, but they managed to disappear before anyone could get too close.

It seemed like they were getting by, at least.

Jango Fett had disappeared as well. Many were getting rather frustrated over the fact that they were not able to apprehend him and bring him in for questioning.

Bail couldn't fault the man for not coming forward either. From what he had understood from the infromation, Fett was a father now. That was most likely his main concern right now.

---

Bail frowned at his datapad. It had been a long day already, and the vote was getting near, and he needed to get his speech ready, and it just didn't sound like he wanted to-

A hand pressed gently at the side of his face.

"What is it?" A voice asked him. It was a man's voice. Soft, with an accent different from Bail's, one that he thought endearing.

The hand moved up, and fingers ran softly over Bail's brow, smoothing the skin. Mostly because Bail couldn't frown anymore, not when-

Bail woke up in the early hours of the morning in his apartment on Coruscant.

He stared at the wall, still reeling from how real the dream had felt and trying to figure out what had woken him, when-

-when everything came back to him in one single supernova, so fast that his mind couldn't keep up with everything. The war, the Empire, Leia in his arms, the Rebellion, the flash before everything disappeared, Breha growing older before his eyes, the voice from his dream-

No. Not from his dream. From his memory. Golden eyes, steady hands, cold body in Bail's arms-

Bail stumbled out of his bed and threw up. He then sat on the floor of his bedroom, his eyes closed, reliving his whole life over and over again, until finally, everything seemed to find their own place on the timeline, and the burning inside his head lessened.

He got a droid to clean up the vomit. He then got up on his shaking legs and went to the bathroom to clean himself up.

Then he cried. He wasn't exactly sure what he was crying about- about all the suffering, all the death, about Leia, about Fox.

He decided it didn't really matter. He was already crying.

He had managed to somewhat dry his tears when his commlink started to ring. He sat down on the bed as he answered the call, and managed not to cry again as Breha wept.

---

The message arrived a day later.

We are here. You know where to find us now. Come, if you remember.

Bail was moving before he could even properly register it.

"I want my ship ready, now!"

He had already packed essentials and draped his cape over his shoulders when his thoughts finally caught up with him.

What if he doesn't remember you?

What if he is not there?

Bail pushed the thoughts away. He had the time to think over the journey.

He called Breha before they made the jump to hyperspace.

"He is not dead", Breha said, in a way that left no room for any arguments. "He will be there."

Yes. Fox's death had happened the same way two times already- there was no reason for the universe to suddenly change the course. Bail had to just believe so. He had to.

They had lost him already before.

Bail was not going to lose him this time.

He breathed deep as the coordinates were set, and the ship made the jump.

Now, he could just wait.

---

The wait had been excruciating.

It was impossible not to go through all of his memories during the journey. It had hurt, sometimes, but Bail wasn't going to let him forget again. No, he needed to remember everything.

His hands were shaking when they jumped out of hyperspace, the planet the coordinates were set on looming beneath them. It was rather easy to find the settlement based on them.

Bail's heart was in his throat as they started to land.

"There are a lot of people", Sateen said. "I know they won't do anything, but-"

"I will go", Bail said. "Just me. I-"

"I know, I know", Sateen said. He then smiled. "I'm sure he remembers. They wouldn't have sent the message if they didn't, right?"

Sateen was correct. Bail nodded, and tried to level his breathing.

He tried his best not to run out of the ship, but his steps were still quick.

There was a large crowd outside. Bail had by now learned to tell the clones apart from each other for the most part, even without the armors, but still. Bail couldn't see him-

There was someone who he did recognise straight away, standing in front of the crowd.

Commander Cody had all the regality and authority of a man who had seen years of war, and Bail knew that he remembered as well.

Bail stepped closer to him. Fox was his younger brother, and his batchmate, or at least had been before. If anyone knew, he would.

"Commander Cody." Bail nodded his head in greeting.

"Senator Organa", Cody greeted back, without hesitation. Yes, he certainly knew.

Bail's heart felt like a engine hammer falling. He needed to know, now.

"We got the message." Somehow he managed to say it without his voice trembling. "Can you tell me where-"

There was movement in the crowd. Bail glanced over, and-

There he was.

Fox looked staight at him, and Bail knew that Fox knew him.

His body was moving already, his legs picking up speed. Then Fox was there, within his reach, and Bail caught him in his arms as their combined momentum sent them straying from the straight-forward course. Fox's upper body was half way over his shoulder, as he gripped onto Bail just as tightly as Bail did onto him, his legs tangling off the ground. It didn't matter. Bail would've held him like this forever, if he needed to.

He did put Fox down eventually, just so he could look at him better.

He looked just like Bail remembered. There was less light streaks in his hair than before, and there were a couple of scars missing that Bail knew he had gotten early on into the war, but otherwise, he was just like before.

Fox looked at him, his hand coming to rest on the side of Bail's face as Bail traced the shape of his jaw.

"Hey", Fox said, his voice almost a whisper, like he didn't trust himself to speak any louder. Bail understood. There was something lodged in his own throat, something that was sure to come spilling out if Bail talked too loud.

"Hello", Bail said. "Hello, my love."

Fox smiled. There were tears gathering into the corner of his eye, and Bail lifted his hand to wipe them away.

They stayed there for a moment longer, before the world expanded back to include others as well. Fox breathed in, and stepped back a little. Bail didn't want to let go yet, and it didn't seem like Fox did, either, because he dropped his hand down, in order to grab onto Bail's arm.

"We need to talk", Fox said. He sounded more serious now, but not in a way that made Bail feel like he was going to tell him something the didn't want to hear. No, this was just something else important. "And...I need to introduce someone to you."

He sounded a bit hesitant, his eyes seaching Bail's, like he was looking for confirmation of some sorts.

Bail smiled.

"Of course", he said. Fox seemed to relax, and he smiled back a bit, before taking Bail's hand, and leading him towards one of the many buildings.

---

"I know it's a lot to ask", Fox said, not looking at Bail directly as he spoke. "I know you- we talked about a girl, and I know that you had one, I heard the news back when-"

"Fox", Bail said, as gently as he could. Fox snapped his mouth shut, and his arms tightened ever so slighty around the small body he was holding against him. "It doesn't matter. I was already a father to a brilliant daughter once. No one is ever going to replace her in my heart, the same way no one could ever replace you. That doesn't mean I won't ever love another child just as much. They are different people, just like you are different from all of your brothers."

Fox finally looked up at him, his eyes full of careful hope.

Bail put his hand on his arm.

"Can I see him?" He asked. Fox nodded, and slowly opened his arms more, letting Bail closer.

The baby had a round, soft face, and a light layer of dark hair on his tiny head, not yet long enough to curl. In the dim lighting of the nursery, his eyes were the same exact shade as Fox's.

The baby looked up at Bail, and Bail loved him already.

"He's perfect", he said, and leaned down to press a kiss to the bright smile on Fox's face.

---

They sat together in Bail's sleeping quarters on the ship.

"Have you thought of a name, yet?" Bail asked. "I know that naming is an important thing for you all."

There had been a lot going on before they left, so Bail had refrained from asking about it before now. Fox had been busy packing up and saying goodbye to all his brothers, and Bail had taken the time to talk more with Commander Cody, as well as met up with many of the members of the Guard. He had been happy to see Thorn again, as well.

Fox looked at the baby on Bail's arms. It was a familiar feeling, to hold such a tiny body, a feeling that Bail had missed greatly after Leia had grown bigger.

"If you want to have a say, we can talk about it more", Fox said. "But I've been calling him Even. It's not a Mando'a name or word, but one of the trainers back on Kamino once told me that it meant a gift. I...after all of what happened, and how we are here now, it just felt right."

"It does", Bail said. "A gift, for all of us."

Even sniffed in his sleep, and turned slightly more towards Bail. Bail smiled.

---

Bail held back a little when they got out of the ship. He stood there at the bottom of the bridge with Even and watched as Fox took Breha in his arms and spun her around, her laughter ringing out like the most beautiful song in the entire Galaxy. He waited patiently as they talked to each other in low voices, and smiled softly as Breha kissed every inch of Fox's face, like she was making up for all the time they had lost.

Then her eyes moved from Fox to Bail, and from Bail to Even. Bail smiled at the look in her eyes as she and Fox made their way to them.

Breha first reached up to press a kiss on Bail's cheek as well.

"A succesful trip, dear?" She asked.

"Very much so", Bail answered. "Enjoyable as well, at least on the way back."

He let himself smirk ever so slightly, making Fox flush and Breha to tap him on his arm.

"Have some manners", she said, and then peered down the little face. "Hello, little love."

Even blinked at her, excitedly searching her face. In the late afternoon sun of Alderaan, a few specks of gold shined through in his dark eyes.

"Here", Bail said, and turned his body properly towards her. She didn't waste a single moment to take Even into her arms. Motherhood had always looked right on her, and it still did.

Bail looked at her, at Even, and at Fox. Perhaps this wasn't the same family he had been given before, but it was still his, and they were all home.

Truly, a gift, for them all.

(Based on my Cody Day fic Like Suns rise and Stars fall)

[charmwasjess]

"Dooku had not loved her. She had thought he had. Not as a woman, of course, or even a daughter, but as an apprentice. Someone who showed promise, who he enjoyed training and shaping."

-Asajj Ventress, Dark Disciple by Christie Golden

Frankly, he probably did love Asajj as a twisted Padawan figure - and that was the problem. People Dooku love tend to have a pretty short shelf life; Sidious already went through so much trouble to eliminate the first batch of them (with some serious help from Dooku himself) he's not going to go down that path again with his already problematic ex-Jedi apprentice getting nice and stabilized by a mutually beneficial relationship. It's an interesting piece of characterization, almost worse than if he had moved entirely beyond the concept and capability. This tragedy that Dooku does still seem to love, or close to it, but that love doesn't fucking save anybody, least of all himself.

[hollow-keys]

This tweet's already got dunked on a lot but I have things to say about the differences between Osha and Anakin that I haven't already seen said sooo I'm gonna say my piece.

The reason why they're reacting differently is Osha and Anakin are very different characters at very different points in their arc in these respective scenes.

When Osha force choked Sol, she had just started to turn to the dark side then and there. Before, that moment, she hadn't turned at all. She left the Order because she couldn't cut it as a Jedi, because of her anger and pain bubbling below the surface, but when she left she didn't feel particularly negative towards the Jedi, she didn't disagree with their philosophy or how they approached the force, she simply didn't feel like it could work for her personally and decided to go life a normal life. Meanwhile, Anakin immediately turned over to the Sith. She viewed herself as a failure for not being able to live up to the Jedi's code, Anakin viewed the code as a failure for not accommodating him.

When Anakin force choked Padmé, he had already turned to the dark side. He'd already beheaded Dooku, he'd already slaughtered the Tuskin Raiders, he'd already executed Order 66, he'd already killed or helped kill his friends. Even before he turned, he was flagrantly and shamelessly disobeying the Jedi code with the arrogance he carried himself with and his relationship with Padmé. Officially turning into a Sith was the end point of all that. He entirely gave himself over to anger, which blocked out his rational thought processes.

Osha was just a normal person who happened to be an ex-Jedi. When she got dragged back into it, she respected the Jedi she worked with but the tensions between her and the Order came back, particularly with how closed off they were to her, unable to reciprocate her non-Jedi like affection. Still, she didn't hate them or even really blame them, it was just a frustration. She was entirely on their side until she found out Sol, one of her closest friends, her father figure, had killed her mum.

She was in shock and disassociating, Sol, in his guilt, didn't explain himself properly and his poor attempt to justify himself only made her withdraw more. She's blank faced because she's not present in the moment. She's still carrying herself like a Jedi with a rational and detached veneer when she uses the force, probably on instinct, but under the surface she's angry, grieving and thus drawing power from the dark side. Sure, her face is blank, but her hands are shaking if you pay attention. It's repressed rage bubbling to the surface. meanwhile Anakin's rage isn't repressed at all and he doesn't feel any attachment to the Jedi's way of doing things. He's chosen the dark side at that point, Osha hasn't chosen any side, she's not thinking about sides, she's just hurt. Her disassociation is blocking out her rational thought processes and she breaks down once she's killed Sol because only then does she stop dissociating and realise what she's done.

Honestly, the correct person to compare Osha to is Mae. When Mae is given the exact same chance to kill Sol, she refuses even though she was recently corrupted to the dark side because she's had years to process that he killed her mum, and she has no prior attachment to him to feel betrayed by, which leads to a less emotional and more rational response. She doesn't just want revenge, she wants him to confess his crimes, she wants the Jedi Order to be rocked by controversy and have a reckoning, to be investigated and reformed. They're the same person under different circumstances.

And look, you can think that the Acolyte scene would be better if Osha was enraged or breaking down, but the fact Amandla Stenberg made a different acting choice than you would have preferred doesn't make her a bad actor. It's like how you can dislike someone's music because it's not your thing while still recognising that they're not a bad musician, but that's probably a bad comparison given a lot of people don't understand that either.

[staycalmandhugaclone]

I WANNA RANT ABOUT A REOCCURING THEME IN STAR WARS THAT NO ONE’S TALKED ABOUT (that I’ve seen)

I don’t know why this popped into my head, but I’ve been a little feral to do some good screaming about it: can we talk about the number of hugely influential character who’ve made a mistake and kept pursuing that path because they felt like it was too late to change??! Dooku, Anakin (just wait, I’ll get there), Crosshair, hell even Obi Wan.

Dooku’s example of this is painted clearly in the Tales of the Jedi episode when he learns about Qui-Gon. There’s clearly doubt, but by then his ‘son’ has been killed for the goal he’s fighting for and that sacrifice would be pointless if he doesn’t see it through. Anakin doesn’t truly reach this point until his transition to Vader, but there’s a moment beforehand (the “what have I done?”) line, that illustrates it, and then after finding out he “killed” Padme, he believes himself utterly unworthy of redemption, so he becomes a bit of a mindless slave fueled by rage and regret.

And Crosshair… listen, I will fight dirty on this hill. Sure, Crosshair probably gets his chip out after Bracca, but he’d just spent months trying to off his brothers and being forced to do things he never would have without the chip and not once did his brothers openly suspect something was wrong or doubt that he’d do those things, and, of course, we have to mention the moment when he saves Omega and everyone still keeps their guns trained on him at the end of season 1, as has been dissected time and again by countless others, which solidifies his fears of no longer having a place among them. So, he’s alone, unwanted by the only family he’s ever known, and wracked with guilt over the things he’s done. The only place he has left is the Empire because he’s already in too deep.

Obi Wan is more subtle, but his mistakes are with Anakin. He’s overlooked red flag after red flag, and even acknowledges this is some of the books, but he lets things slide time and time again because he’s made exceptions for him in the past. I think he begins subconsciously doubting his right to call Anakin out on those actions because of his own failings, and then everything spirals out of control too quickly for him to even try to fix it.

Hell, this mentality broke Wolffe in Rebels - despite not having his chip, he still clings to a distrust toward Jedi because, if he doesn't, he'd have to come to terms with the fact that he betrayed Plo, which, let's be real: not one of us is emotionally ready for.

The greatest and most painful failings of our beloved characters came about because they didn’t feel like they could, or should, be granted the chance to make things right, either because they couldn’t live with what they’d done so couldn’t consciously accept their actions as a mistake, or because they couldn’t forgive themselves so didn’t think they deserved to even ask anyone else for forgiveness.

With very, very few exceptions, it’s only too late to ask for help when you’re dead. Things may never be the same as before the mistake was made, but that’s still better than continuing to make it worse.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk, scroll on next vid’ja

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

The fandom used to be so fcking weird about how it went about interpreting canon. There's still some dumb stuff around but looking back on 2000-2010 era SW fanfiction people had the weirdest Legends-inspired fanon ever and genuinely held it as authoritative reading of the text even as the movies explicitly and completely contradicted it?

I'm specifically thinking about "Sai Tok" and how *gasp* the Council was apparently suuuuuper duper creeped out that Obi-Wan used a *gasp* forbidden Sith lightsaber technique on Darth Maul and they thought it was a sign he had fallen a little bit or whatever (genuinely have seen idiot SW youtube bros use the 'sai tok' argument to say that the Jedi code is hypocritical and they all use the Dark Side anyway when they need to yadda yadda).

But remember how the Council immediately knighted Obi-Wan in TPM?? They didn't HAVE to do that. People using the previous argument would go on about Old Republic "traditions" and how killing a Sith automatically makes you a knight and it's in the Code, but that's just another headcanon used to cover up that the first one doesn't make sense. Nothing in TPM says the Council knighted Obi-Wan out of a tradition they were obligated to follow - if it was the case, they probably wouldn't have given him Anakin. As it is, what the movie seems to be saying is that they knighted him because they thought he deserved it. (Especially since he didn't just hold his own, he also managed to calm himself down and center himself and that's how he got Maul.)

The part in the TPM novelization (iirc) about Sai Tok being 'frowned upon' (not forbidden) isn't in the movies and even if it was it's not very conclusive. Bisecting your opponent would logically be discouraged in lightsaber fights because it's been a thousand years since the Jedi have fought Sith, so anytime they pull out their lightsabers it's to fight people who very likely aren't as powerful as they are and the Jedi only go for the kill as a last resort. They just don't like killing people if they can help it, that's why you'd scold a kid at lightsaber practice who always goes for the throat or midsection. Not because oNLy SitH pEoPle dO thAt. And Obi-Wan's situation? was a last resort, so there is zero reason it'd be frowned upon in the Code or whatever.

And again, that's not what happens! They're so impressed they trust him with Anakin when they could have just knighted him. Frankly I think they wouldn't have had much reason to care if he'd bitten Maul's head off at that point. They also put Obi-Wan on the Council right as the war started (so either they made him a Master specifically to get him on the Council, or they put him on the Council the second they made him a Master for other reasons: bc he fought Dooku, bc he led the investigation, bc Anakin got knighted, whatv. the point is: they ABSOLUTELY trust him.) That he used a 'bad' technique is never, ever, EVER hinted at in all three prequels movie, it's never brought up, used to discredit him, talk him down, used by the Sith as proof that he is just like them... nobody EVER makes a big deal out of it because it's not!! To everybody, the big deal is that Obi-Wan SURVIVED! And managed to beat a Sith!! He could have tripped Maul into the pit, shoved Maul's own lightsaber into his skull, or stabbed him with an actual knife and that still wouldn't change their takeaway!!

[phoenixyfriend]

Heiress of the Count AU

Early in the Imperial Era, Vader is sent along as The Muscle for someone's trade negotiations with what's left of the CIS. There's not much, all told, and they've already capitulated to The Big Ask of submitting to the Empire, but bureaucratic minutiae still need to be pinned down, and they're still cohesive enough that it'll be easier to discuss things like tax rates by meeting with a few representatives than hashing things out planet by planet. Vader doesn't want to come along, but Sidious said he had to (and then laughed).

Once he arrives, he finds out why! The head of the loose coalition of CIS planets is the Countess of Serenno, Asajj Ventress.

Asajj is listed as Count Dooku's primary heir in the will, despite him trying to kill her and her fucking off to be a bounty hunter instead. He still cared? Was fond? He still regarded her well enough to name her as basically his adopted daughter. The line of succession will revert to Dooku's nephew if Ventress doesn't have any heirs of her own, and a good portion of the larger estate did go to him (and some pockets went to Obi-Wan), but the title, castle, fortune, and throne went to Asajj.

She doesn't know what the hell to do with it. But then comes the situation of negotiating with the Empire, and her... cousin? Grand-nephew? Whatever the fuck Dooku's actual blood nephew is. The guy said she had to go because she was the only person around that could claim to be at least somewhat resistant/unintimidated by Imperial lackeys, being a notably powerful Force User with a history of Jedi Kills.

So Asajj is now the new face of what's left of the CIS.

And she's honestly pretty likely to recognize Vader as Anakin, if they're in the same room for a few hours and she's calm enough to try and figure out which idiot is in the massive armor.

IDK where this goes but I think maybe Asajj could pspspsps Vader out of the Empire by mentioning that the nightsisters had a better grasp of necromancy than the Sith, and if Vader really wanted to follow through on whatever it was about immortality that got him on Sidious's side (she's heard Amidala is dead, and the two weren't subtle, though she doesn't mention it), then she's basically the only one left alive that could help him access the right Dathomiri texts to fuck around with dead souls.

Anyway. Countess Asajj. I want to put her in fancy outfits and have an actual noble (Dooku's nephew) as her long-suffering chief advisor.

(The man is not planning to usurp or betray her because she's letting him have a fair amount of power and will probably let the line go back to him anyway, possibly even abdicating after the situation is stable enough that they don't need her Former Sithliness anymore, so like... what even would be the point? Waste of resources.)

[jewishcissiekj]

hi let's talk about her

Honestly I have so much to say about her. so much. so here's some of it

-Asajj (NOT VENTRESS THAT'S HER LAST NAME ISTG PEOPLE JUST HATE USING HER ACTUAL NAME AND IDK WHY I GUESS IT'S A COOL NAME BUT ASAJJ IS ALSO A COOL NAME AND)

-Asajj was last seen in canon in the Dark Disciple novel. Where she died. I would never recommend that book to anyone so if you haven't read it yet please don't. In short, after becoming a Bounty Hunter in The Clone Wars she grew out her hair, got a cool yellow Lightsaber and for some reason teamed up with Quinlan Vos to try and kill Dooku. They didn't manage to do it. And Asajj died (was fridged) trying to protect Quinlan. The Bad Batch will not contradict that, as was said by the creators. So this is just a summary for anyone who hasn't read it because I wholeheartedly believe that book is bad

-I have not watched a single Bad Batch episode in my life. As a disclaimer. I started the first one, watched their TCW arc and saw memes screenshots clips and spoilers but I do not know this show. I will watch it now that Asajj's there tho

-She does not have the same outfit anymore! It's a change, and we haven't gotten a clear look at her new design so idk how to judge it yet. Might be to look less recognizable, but it has a very different vibe than any of her prior outfits. There's a leftover shoulder pad and probably some other stuff from her last design but I feel like they kinda clash with the new one and tbb's design language in general. The Bounty Hunter look has a very TCWish feel to it and this one is a sharp turn in another, much more casual direction. I'm not inherently against it but I guess we'll see how it looks in action soon

-In my opinion the hair looks like shit. I don't think she should have hair ever. I don't understand why she can't be bald. Why is she bald when she's evil and has hair when she's a padawan (good) and when she is "redeemed"? guess we'll never know. It's a leftover from the cancelled Dark Disciple TCW arc design (and the Dark Disciple cover and promotional material ofc) and it's bad if you ask me but to each their own and if you like it good for you

-Her Lightsaber!!!!! Same case as the hair in terms of irl development but I like it so much better. The yellow just fits her character and it's pretty. Would love for her to find another one and get back to dual-wielding (I know that won't happen)

-The bag and pouches make me so happy as a design element do you think she carries a (tooka) cat in there

-Now, visually she looks great and the animation style is smoother and nicer than TCW (as is the quality), but what about the direction the character's going in? I didn't like her being dead before, but I felt like it was somewhat better than her being shoved into being a cameo character in new content. If you can't touch her after a certain point, you also can't mess her up. But I do wonder where they're going with her. A few questions:

-Asajj in canon is a directionless character. Also, a partially nonsensical and inconsistent character in her choices and storylines. I've talked about it a lot but in short she just feels messy. What's her purpose in life? Her motive? Her origin story doesn't really make sense, even. She's a Bounty Hunter, sure, but why? If all she wants is revenge on Dooku and maybe money (which was pretty much the case in Dark Disciple), what's she doing after the Empire? And more importantly, why?

-Obviously, the question I haven't asked yet because I don't like it: How the fuck is she alive? Nightsisters have a weird relationship with death but seriously, how?

-She's a Force User after the Rise of the Empire now, so what does he do about that? Is she founding The Path? Fucking around and finding out? Making a not-Jedi-not-Sith order with other force users she finds? Is the Empire after her? Do they know she's live?

-What about her girlfriend? Is Latts Razzi safe? Is she alright?

-Why is she in The Bad Batch show? Are we making her into a cameo character or is there a purpose? Why'd they bring her back? For fun? What is she doing after the show? Floating in dead space? Cameo-ing? Will we have a book?

-OK enough for tonight but if we see Quinlan Vos in the show I'll become violent (/neg). We probably will (he might just get mentioned idk).

[adragonsfriend]

Shooting Anakin like Padmé

So I've mentioned this before, but for most of ROTS, Padmé is shown pretty much only in her own apartment, and she's only allowed to leave to (1) go to see Anakin to tell him about the baby, (2) go to the Senate to deliver an (admittedly devastating) line about Palpatine declaring himself Emperor, and then (3) go to Mustafar to find Anakin. Besides those times, the camera only looks at her when Anakin goes to see her in her apartment, or when Obi-Wan goes to her apartment to see her about Anakin.

This relegation of Padmé to the domestic sphere--even if it's less obvious in that it's not a cooking or cleaning domestic space--is strange for a character who is obviously active and present in the previous movies. Why isn't she in the Senate building before the last scene? Why doesn't she have an office? Paperwork to do at least? Why don't we see her preparing to give birth? Hell why can't she and Anakin just talk somewhere else for once?

The answers to these questions are not ones I'm going to bother with right now. Whilst they are probably complex and interesting on some level, ultimately, they largely start and end with and "the narrative stopped being interested in its main female character other than in how she affects its male lead." Instead, I'd like to demonstrate how stupid it is by imagining ROTS scenes if Anakin was shot the same way Padmé is.

Rescuing the Chancellor

Start by cutting the whole space battle and rescue. We open on Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine returning to the ground and being greeted by the Senators and the press. Padmé pulls Anakin aside as in the movie. Since we didn't get to see Anakin execute Dooku, Anakin summarizes those events to Padmé, during which he tells her that he's not sure he should've killed Dooku and that he's afraid Obi-Wan would be disappointed in him. Padmé avoids confronting/is distracted from this revelation by her own news--she's pregnant. Continue the scene as written, with Anakin dismissing her worries to tell her to be as happy as he is.

Impact

Because it would probably reveal too much plot-wise for Anakin to tell Padmé that Palpatine directly ordered him to execute Dooku, this would deeply minimize how much Palpatine has over Anakin's decision making, as well as obscure how Dooku being executed even happened when Obi-Wan should've been right there to stop him (audience has no idea he was knocked out). Also, the audience would not see Anakin disagree with Palpatine to save Obi-Wan, and would therefore be deprived of the understanding that Obi-Wan is important to Anakin.

Even if all of this information was included in Anakin's summary of events, it would replace all of the showing done in the rescue scenes with telling, thereby destroying all of the emotional weight the audience experiences actually witnessing the events.

Appointment to the Council & The Opera

Instead of seeing Anakin talk to Palpatine and Obi-Wan, and throwing his fit to the Council, we instead get Anakin sitting in his quarters in the temple after the council meeting. He gets angry, standing up and pacing the room, talking to either himself or R2-D2 about how annoyed he is about not being made a master and that Obi-Wan would ask him to spy on Palpatine.

Instead of Anakin sitting with Palpatine in the Opera, we are treated to another scene of him in his quarters, this time we see him in his quarters, reading some texts, maybe muttering about trying to find the story Palpatine told him about.

Impact

Instead of seeing Anakin being manipulated, being inept at politics, his inability to manage his emotions in front of the Council, the tension of his argument with Obi-Wan about spying, and the way he's immediately drawn in by Palpatine's story about darth Plageuis, we just get him pitching a fit in private. Pitching a fit in private is a pretty reasonable thing to do--most people do it at some point--and so on top of doing nothing to show any of his interpersonal relationships with Obi-Wan, the Council, or Palpatine, it also shows very little of the complete breakdown he's headed toward.

Order 66

Instead of seeing Anakin go into the Temple, leading the clones, we are instead shown him getting dressed in his new sith cloak, which matches Palpatine's.

Impact

The audience gets none of the horror of seeing Anakin about to kill people. They only gain the information that he killed the Jedi children when Obi-Wan tells Padmé--there is none of the symbolism of him being shown to kill that one kid who looks just like his younger self. It reduces a horrific act and character decision to less than a news headline, and--especially with Padmé's later denial about it--makes it sound like more of a rumor than anything.

Mustafar

After Anakin puts on his new sith cloak, we cut to him on a ship to Mustafar. Only it's not his fighter, it's a ship large enough to have sleeping quarters, or maybe a kitchen. We see Anakin in one of those two spaces, again pacing, but this time he has set his lightsaber on a table, and keeps glancing at it agitatedly. On arrival, he picks it up and leaves the ship. Cut to him announcing over comm to Palpatine that the Separatist leaders are dead, without showing any of the killing involved. Then he sees Padmé landing and goes to greet her.

Then, keep the strangling Padmé and dueling Obi-Wan the same as the movie.

Impact

Now imagine seeing that final duel after an entire movie in which we have hardly seen Anakin and Obi-Wan interact, never seen them fight together, and only witnessed Anakin draw his saber once, to cut off Mace's hand in one wild swipe. It wouldn't mean nearly as much. We wouldn't know where Anakin suddenly got all these crazy lightsaber skills from--it would be crazy that he can go toe to toe with Obi-Wan who we just saw fight Grevious. We wouldn't know that Obi-wan's death was something Anakin would've died to prevent only days earlier.

Overall Impact

While some of these altered scenes do have potential to communicate some important things about Anakin (staring at lightsaber = guilt, picking it back up = choosing violence), on their own, they fail to tell his story well, and give little depth to his character.

He doesn't really talk to anyone on screen -> seems like a total loner who doesn't talk to anyone but Padmé. What do you mean Obi-Wan is supposed to be his best friend-brother-dad-teacher? (Why does Obi-Wan say he loved Anakin at the end or bother to personally look over Luke?)

Anakin doesn't really do anything for anyone but himself -> what do you mean he's supposed to have been a caring person who was corrupted?

Anakin is called a General and a war hero, but we never see him lead troops or even fight -> was he just given the title to make him seem more important?

Anakin and Palpatine only interact for like two seconds -> why does Anakin believe him about the Sith story or follow his orders to commit atrocities?

Anakin doesn't have any strong feelings about the Jedi, positive or negative (let alone both simultaneously) -> why do we care that he betrayed and killed them? why didn't Palpatine just let the clones do it?

Basically, it makes him seem stupid and inactive, and completely fails to show the audience his ongoing struggle with violence and torn loyalties, unless of course the audience is willing to go to lengths to imagine the depth he might've had if the narrative had prioritized him a little more.

There's lots of fic and meta that does that for Padmé, but the movie itself does not force the average view to see her as anything but Anakin's girlfriend who loves him more than anything, for some reason (he's pretty?) and is a Senator for some reason (she talks about politics for a minute?).

Like, I'm being a bit reductive, but all the scenes I cut of Anakin doing violence? Those are the equivalent of Padmé doing politics. All the interactions with Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and the Council? Those are Padme talking to other senators, her handmaidens, maybe even her parents. Anakin's mounting stress? That's a bit about Padmé seeing a doctor, worrying about her own health.

Padme isn't the main character, but she's not a side character either. The screen time she got could've been better used, even simply by letting her look busy when Anakin talks at her. ROTS makes her seem silly and inactive, and fails to show the audience the full depth of the ongoing conflict between her duty as a political power and her relationship with Anakin.