#and he lost himself in the sunk cost fallacy

[sandumilfshou]

i block people for very minor reasons simply because i want to curate my space and not because i have personal beef with everyone i block BUT. i did just block someone who had a bad take on jgy

[fountainpenguin]

Dimmsdale Rich Families Analysis

Misc. musings that haunt me daily...

I love Dimmsdale's rich families... You've got the Dimmadomes who are all about real estate, fancy buildings, hosting city events, and (Thanks to Dale) they got into tech and shipping.

Contrast that with the "old-fashioned pencil and paper" vibes of the Leadlys, plus the Buxaplentys running the trains... It's a triangle of supporting each other's businesses (and thus, the rich get richer).

This post written under the assumption we're treating these episodes as canon, though I cherrypick "Country Clubbed" in my worldbuilding and I use Dimmsdale's founding year from Season 3 over the one given in Season 9.

General Background

Several flashback episodes imply the FOP world exists in a timeline where the English settled at least part of the west coast in 1665 (as opposed to the Spanish).

- Presumably, this is one of the unique things a universe-hopper like Jimmy Neutron would identify this world by. - On that note, people are heavily implied to "stand differently" in the FOP world, which is why visitors from other dimensions react with surprise when they see their bodies (and fall over before they get their footing):

Just some fun "alt reality" vibes. Enjoy your visit; sea legs required.

Notably, this is also a universe where trains existed on the west long before they existed in ours, but we'll get to that.

Today I'm discussing the Dimmadomes, Leadlys, and Buxaplentys, but for anyone who's interested in learning more about rich families, Season 9's "Country Clubbed" namedrops a bunch.

Dimmadome Family

We know the Dimmadomes for their impact in the modern world- they're always innovating, hopping from one thing to the next. Dale does seem to have consistency in the businesses he owns (though I am DYING to question what his plans are for that indoor amusement park).

Doug doesn't seem able to commit to anything for long, though we know he's very proud of the Dimmsdale Dimmadome. He hosts many events throughout the series, from music shows to wrestling to demolition derbies.

Dimmsdale was founded in 1665, named after Dale Dimm (following him throwing Alden Bitterroot the witch down a well). It's possible Dale Dimm is an ancestor of the Dimmadomes, given what we know about:

- Dimmadomes having their hand in things (including the founding of Dimmadelphia). - One Dimmadome ancestor using the surname Dimm ("Lost and Founder's Day"). - Dale Dimm's very tall, barefoot figure is a hilarious ancestor choice for Doug "tall hat" and Dale "boot obsessed" descendants when you think about it.

While it's heavily implied Dale was born into generational wealth, we can't confirm whether that was (or wasn't) true for Doug. It's possible his family helped him get his start, but he seems to have kicked off his own success story by mining for gold (Presumably at a young age given that was back in 1953 and the main FOP series kicks off in 2001).

I like to think Doug (prior Dale's birth) changed his family's surname to Dimmadome to move away from the negative connotation of Dimm and commit himself fully to his big and shiny brand image.

Doug's a pretty interesting character! He's not afraid to get involved in his projects and work hard personally, as opposed to outsourcing- a trait he and his son Dale seem to share.

Doug also seems pained to surrender a check to Timmy in "Odd Ball" (even asking for a minute to say good-bye to his money), which isn't far off from Dale's attitude towards stocks.

He was even down to move to Alaska to follow the Ballhogs basketball team. He loves throwing all his chips on the table and doesn't back out easily. He also goes all-in with promotional outfits, like the parka above or his chicken costume in "Chicken Poofs."

That said, he might have some "sunk cost fallacy" views towards some of the stuff he buys. While the basketball team cheered they'd won the game by a close shave, Doug's first remark was that now he'd have to figure out what to do with all the stuff he bought in prep for their move to Alaska. He immediately started eating the Blubber Nuggets he would no longer be able to sell.

In "Chicken Poofs," when Doug sees the town inside his restaurant's chicken-dunking cages, his first thought isn't "Oh my gosh, I have to save these people." It's "These people stole my chickens- I'm ruined!" However (at Timmy's advice), he comes back from the loss of his chickens by selling the eggs they left behind. He wasn't about to go home empty-handed.

I'm obsessed with Doug's chicken-dipping machinery having labels so the thing one step up from Deep Fry is The Sun, and the step up from Sun is Lava. When would he ever need a dial that goes that high?

A "waste not, want not" attitude is fascinating in contrast to Dale being so incredibly wasteful, he brought two single-use helicopters on his trip to the park in "Stanky Danky." Is Dale rebelling against Doug's "We have to make the most of everything" parenting style? I think that plays really well into my vision of Dale being the first born into excessive wealth, while Doug possibly worked his way up after striking gold in 1953. Dale is wasteful, Doug more practical.

Doug is also over-the-top ridiculous and would sooner work around his love for tall hats than stop wearing them.

He owns a boot-shaped phone and a laptop with an armadillo logo, apparently. I'm not sure what they were going for with the armadillo - it's probably just random or meant to represent high security - but I looked it up and in Mayan folklore, armadillos are perceived as cunning critters that outwit people and dodge consequences thanks to their shells, which... Yeah, I think that sums the Dimmadomes up pretty well. Fun fact, but armadillos are one of the only things Fairy magic can't affect ("Teacher's Pet") because magic bounces off their shells. My Anti-Fairy biology incorporates pink fairy armadillo biology because we know Anti-Fairies are also immune to most Fairy magic. Just kind of a "Hm" implication, especially since "Crock Talk"' here and "Teacher's Pet" are both Season 7 episodes. I guess the other horrifying option is that Doug eats armadillos the way you eat apples, but...

I'm also of the opinion that Doug torched things in the Learnatorium, given what we know about the Learnatorium's interior ("Totally Spaced Out") and this scene of Doug "destroying childhood memories" in "Odd, Odd West"

In fact, it's not even a reach to say Doug takes pride in destroying people's cherished childhood memories. He seems to "look down on wasteful, childish things" and seems to value anything that is more useful in performing a task or turning a profit. Again, that's big "Everything must be useful and we can't waste space" energy (and presumably reflects on his offscreen parenting).

Where my fanworks are concerned, I love the idea that Doug paid for personal tutors to help Dale adjust to society and/or some basic schooling. Say... maybe an elementary teacher to start with? I don't think it would be unreasonable to theorize Crocker was involved with that, at least at first, as it helps justify the money he would've needed to expand the Crocker cave in the early days. -> We know from S4's "Genie Meanie Miney Mo" that Mr. Birkenbake states he can't afford a garage because he "doesn't make Crocker money," implying resentment... which is pretty interesting when you consider that Crocker also doesn't have his own place because he moved back in with his mom after university, and not even to his old room (Instead to a room above the garage). -> We know from S6's "Wishology Pt. 2" that Crocker stole the money intended for "the school's new science wing" and used that to pay for some of his tech, like his rocket. Both these episodes come well after S2's "Nectar of the Odds," so it's interesting to consider Crocker getting money earlier to support his tech pursuits in Seasons 2 and 3.

Dale seems to feel strongly about his dad- If it's not love, it's obsession and Grade-A Daddy Issues. His tent is shaped like his dad's head - despite Doug not being present at the event as far as we know - and even his house features statues of his dad.

Considering the nervous, over-the-top, aggressively money-chasing person Dale turned out to be, it's no surprise we can see a lot of Dale in Doug. While Vicky did a number on Dale's psyche, there's definitely some Doug influence in his behavior too.

Fun Fact: The Dimmadome gives off Roman Colosseum vibes, so it's fitting that one of the ancestors we saw in "Lost and Founder's Day" is an ancient Roman!

I would also be remiss not to look at the Dimmadome fortune, glance at the sheer number of businesses Doug is constantly opening... and question if there's some money laundering going on there. Seems kinda sus, ngl...

I'm just saying, Doug with a ton of "disposable income" (gold) because he ended up with a lot of it very quickly seems like a "great" way to get into gambling. Shout-out to the Dimmadomes and their obsessions that hint at addictive personalities. Actually, that makes Dev's game addiction so much darker and now I'm horrified. He could get into trouble so easily...

Also, in "Engine Blocked," Doug literally tries to pay Vicky with a bunch of [I assume fake] money with his face on it, so that's questionable...

One last interesting note is that the Dimmadrones (called such in "Stanky Danky" when chasing Cosmo, Wanda, and Hazel) are clearly based on the early model of Amazon delivery drones.

I think the obvious assumption is that Dale* built them for Dimmazon, but repurposed a few of them for Dev's caretaking (as opposed to them being built for Dev in the first place).

* It's possible the robots were built by a team, but knowing Dale programmed the statues in "Lost and Founder's Day" & Dale's seeming preference to do things himself rather than outsourcing, I'm going with the "Dale built them" theory.

This repurposing might be backed up by Dev referring to the ones that hang out with him as au pairs - a phrase meaning "caretaker" - and even claiming his au pairs are Au Pair #1 and Au Pair #2. While that might just be convenient shorthand since those are the two he interacts with, maybe those are a different type of Dimmadrone that was designed (or tweaked) specifically for Dev's care.

In a previous post, I discussed my headcanon of Dev having hypoglycemia and referenced the au pairs having the ability to "alert on him," or at least use both visuals and noise to signal him, as in this screenshot from "28 Puddings Later" showcasing a glowing exclamation point:

We also know Dev has specific food needs (Lactose intolerance), that he's very picky with his food (Even a treat like cupcakes that you would expect a 9-year-old to enjoy regardless), and that the au pairs are capable of food preparation (since Dev tells Hazel in "A New Dev-elopment" they can make sushi).

The au pairs are probably the most advanced, expensive, time-consuming models (compared to the ones that simply need to be mass produced for package pick-up and put-down).

I do like the thought that - for all his faults I didn't touch on here - Dale does care enough about Dev that he took the time to design two robots that could look after Dev in his absence... and specifically, took the time to think of what a child actually needs.

Dale probably thinks "I spent 7 years struggling... I would've loved the comfort of knowing my base needs like food were taken care of."

In my hypoglycemia post, I said the au pairs seem to know what hugs are and can recognize when Dev wants comfort. That implies Dale put a lot of thought into the design of the au pair and its ability to assess Dev's needs. Dale's not oblivious to what a child needs, like safety, appropriate food, and physical affection... He just lets the au pairs handle Dev.

Dale definitely gives the impression of someone who's making a genuine effort to parent, considering he missed out on healthy role models for at least 7 years of his life (Not to mention Doug is a wild character and probably fell short of being an excellent parent himself).

Along with designing the au pairs to look after him, Dale involves Dev in his projects, greets Dev, and answers his questions, and that's so interesting when you compare him with people like:

- Remy's parents (after the shipwreck in "Fairy Fairy Quite Contrary"'s closing scene) opting to count their surviving money and open a luxury hotel while still dressed in rags, forcing Remy to forage for his and their survival - Vicky and Tootie's parents opting to stay with perceived cannibals rather than disobey Vicky ("Timmy's 2D House of Horror"); they consistently let Vicky run the show and beg her forgiveness when they upset her. You could 100% make an argument that Vicky is Tootie's actual caregiver. - The "Fairy Idol" alt version of Bucky (Chester's dad) who lost his house and went off to party instead of securing food or shelter for his son. Also, Regular Bucky canonically feeds Chester animals he stole from the zoo or aquarium ("Who's Your Daddy?") and I think we should talk about that. - A.J.'s parents are fantastic in many ways, but there's something incredibly dark about the way they don't like A.J. going outside where there are germs ("Who's Your Daddy?"), they have a laser set up in front of their house to vaporize visitors ("The Big Scoop"), and A.J. seems to believe they dislike Chester (given his long silence after Chester asks why A.J.'s parents' security system got more aggressive after finding out he was Chester). - Later-season neglectful Timmy's parents (though I acknowledge I don't love that flanderized aspect of their character unless viewed from the 'got burned out after 50 extra years of parenting' lens, personally). - Clark and Connie who walked out on their daughter having an anxiety attack (and sent Chloe into a dissociative episode 3 times in the first episode they appeared). - A distracted adult Timmy ("Channel Chasers") leaving his kids with a robot Vicky babysitter despite the sight of weapons and his children begging.

Dale IS an antagonist and a neglectful parent. This post is not meant to take away from that or excuse it, but I think it's interesting that within the bounds of FOP characterization... He is pretty consistently in line with how parents in this show behave, and he does have many positives alongside his flaws. I totally understand why child protective services have not taken Dev from him.

Disclaimer: All characters are morally gray and this list is for amusing discussion purposes. I'm not calling these characters "bad parents" so much as highlighting interesting behaviors for consideration.

FOP's characterization leans into adults being foolish and neglectful - Dimmsdale is named after the idea that the adults are dim, after all - and I think it's worth evaluating all the FOP parents within that framework.

Related Dimmadome Posts:

- This post where I had the thought that Doug might have ADHD/OCD comorbidity (Hilariously, something I'd already decided to do with Dale and Dev...)

- This post comparing Doug and Dale body language

Leadly Family

S9's "Dog Gone" is a bonkers episode, and I love it so much. Notably, it's the episode that confirms Leadly is personally rich- Not just Pencil Nexus as a company, which has multiple branches in other states and can afford a jet.

In fact, Leadly is so rich, he offers to buy Sparky from the Turners for 17 million dollars, just because Sparky gave him the Heimlich maneuver and Leadly thought it was neat.

My personal headcanon for Leadly is that he's somewhat aware of magical beings and is actively seeking them.

The Leadly mansion is pencil-themed, of course.

The Dimmadomes and Buxaplentys are both confirmed to have generational wealth. We have no proof one way or the other for Leadly. It's likely his is too, but it's not impossible he founded Pencil Nexus and committed to its branding because he's proud of what he does.

Leadly doesn't have many appearances, but we know some very important things about him:

- He's convinced he's being haunted by a hot tub ghost, reason being that Cosmo likes to use his hot tub at night (whether Leadly's in it or not). Sparky also claims that he had an accident on Leadly's lawn (Crashing his car), but that Leadly blamed the hot tub ghost.

- He's super buff.

- His company is literally the only thing keeping a [presumably magical] forest from overtaking Dimmsdale, considering that when Pencil Nexus reduces their tree chopping in "The Boss of Me," the forest overtakes the city within a couple hours.

Did some godkid out there just wish for renewable trees and now Dimmsdale is cursed and suffering??

Leadly just flexes like this and has massive muscles, but his aren't as big as the people affected by the Everleadys.

The episode makes it explicitly clear that people's massive muscles are magic and aren't going away (Hence the lawsuits and decision to remove Everleady pencils from the world), but Leadly's muscles do fade when he stops flexing. His are natural.

Despite the jokes that he flies the company jet around to goof off, it's not unreasonable to think he's out there personally chopping trees and I respect him for it.

Y'know, I did wonder how on earth selling pencils made him rich enough that he can afford to spontaneously buy things for 17 million dollars (and keep a pet snow leopard that he apparently rides, considering it was tame enough for Timmy's Dad to ride it home from work and he parked it outside his house and it just stayed there).

Did he fight the snow leopard? Did he raise it? I'm afraid of him.

Conclusion: Ed Leadly has a monopoly on an infinitely replenishing wood source. His company can never take a break or the city will be overtaken by magic plants. Big "curse of Midas" vibes.

I can't stop thinking about how in "T.U.F.F. Puppy," it's implied that Petropolis exists in the same general location as Dimmsdale... Los Angeles county:

- Los Angeles' population in the 2010 census was 3,792,621. Dimmsdale's hillside letters parallel the Hollywood sign. - 91502 is the Burbank area code, where the Nickelodeon studio is - Jorgen claims in "Meet the OddParents" that the power he has to do that was vested in him by both Fairy World and Whittier, California. This seems to match the city borders seen in "Fairy Idol" while he's zooming in on Chester to assign Norm as his godparent.

This implies parallel universe vibes, though in my lore, I have all four Hartman shows blended into one continuity.

See my 2019 post, "A T.U.F.F. Timeline" or the shorter "How Hartman Shows Co-Exist" post if you want details on that

Here's the thing... In "T.U.F.F.," it's implied the forest near the city has been allowed to spread and evolve. Its bizarre flora and fauna certainly give a "non-natural evolution" vibe, so it's not implausible magic could be at play.

It's made very clear in "T.U.F.F. Puppy" that this show is still set on Earth, yet "Flower Power" refers to the Petropolis Rainforest. That implies this forest exists around the city. In fact, we know it's separate from the Amazon, which is referenced in "To Bee or Not to Bee").

Interestingly, the episode "Til Doom Do Us Part" depicts Petropolis being overrun by brightly colored flowers once weddings are mass canceled-

- which implies the florists are keeping the creep of nature back from Petropolis.

I feel like this is especially cursed in my lore where "T.U.F.F." exists in a post-FOP future... Leadly, your woods!! Oh no, he can't hear us... He's been gone for 2,000 years...

Shout-out to Pencil Nexus keeping Dimmsdale safe, one pencil at a time. And shout-out to Leadly's unique body language of gripping the sides of his coat, because he does it a lot and it makes me smile every time. He is just some background guy with a pencil-themed gimmick, but he has a special body language quirk and I love it.

Related Leadly Things:

- If you haven't watched S9's "Dog Gone," I recommend it. It's silly. There are some late-series episodes that give secondhand embarrassment vibes, but for some reason "Dog Gone"'s bizarre energy is so charming to me.

- Leadly appeared in these one-shots of mine, if you're interested in my portrayal of him hunting down magical creatures (and just generally being entitled and getting in the way): "Opportunity" & "Trying Too Hard"

Buxaplenty Family

The Buxaplentys have been running the railroads ever since Dimmsdale's early days, with Orville Buxaplenty the first to do so. Timmy's distant grandfather (Ebeneezer) mocks trains by claiming they're "just a fad" and there's no future in them- Thus, he chooses not to involve himself with trains and leaves Orville to do so alone.

This establishes the Buxaplenty wealth as being generational through these trains. Presumably, Dimmsdale has a large train station, as this seems to be where the Buxaplentys have set up shop.

If the Dimmadomes have businesses spanning Los Angeles to Dimmadelphia, it's very likely the trains play a key role. Assuming we take the 1665 founding date of Dimmsdale as canon ("Which Witch is Which?"), the trains may have been essential at moving resources from Dimmsdale to later found Dimmadelphia. -> See also, respawning magic woods (?) Rich people crossover of the centuries??

Notably, their family takes some heavy hits in "Country Clubbed" when Mr. Buxaplenty is forced to watch the destruction of the club, his mansion, yacht, and limo in quick succession.

The surname Buxaplenty is clearly a play on the phrase "bucks aplenty" (and I want to shout-out a 'fic I read many years ago - but unfortunately do not remember - that had a whole thing about Remy's surname actually being Buxley and everyone just calling them Buxaplentys in a derogatory way, because that's hilarious).

A neat detail about Remy is that in the Spanish version of Fairly OddParents, his surname is Cajallena, which (to my understanding) translates as "full cash register."

In my lore, I made Cajallena the maiden name of Remy's mom.

I did some poking around. Apparently, Remy is based on comic/cartoon character Richie Rich, popular from the 60s to the 90s or so (and who still shows up in modern reboots of things today).

I'm not familiar with this series, but both are blond, the only child in their family, and wear big red bows. After brief research, I get the impression Richie was at least a little associated with trains... even owning a toy trainset that costs 1 million dollars (and paying 8 million to buy the factory that makes a part of his set that broke).

I want to highlight this comparison:

From the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, I believe, and it looks like Richie owned other gold vehicles like a boat as well.

As for Remy himself, I believe I read a few years ago that he's designed around the concept of "green-eyed envy," so he has literal green eyes. I think envious is a very good way to describe his character, considering that his immediate reaction to learning Timmy has fairies was "If he has fairies, he could wish himself richer than me; I wish his fairies were gone."

This is a minor detail, but I rewatched some Remy scenes (especially the lunch scene in "Remy Rides Again" and the breakfast scene in "Stupid Cupid") because I could've sworn Remy said at some point that he likes caviar. That might be true - I didn't find it in my hasty rewatch - but I definitely laughed when I checked and saw that instead of eating caviar for lunch like I'd remembered, he ate steak. Kid knows what he wants.

We also know Remy enjoys Crimson Chin and Crash Nebula. Specifically, we know that he's a fan of Cleft the Boy Chin Wonder, but that when Remy ventures inside the comic world, he made the character more relatable to him by making Cleft rich... in addition to minor costume changes, such as slapping the Buxaplenty logo on him in place of Cleft's usual C.

Remy sees something in Cleft that connects with him, but that extra "I want Cleft to feel like me" bit is interesting. Admiring Cleft isn't enough. He needs to be "I am Cleft's secret identity. I, Remy Buxaplenty, have this alt life." The Crimson Chin can't seem to tell the difference between Timmy and Remy as Cleft - unsurprising since he's a comic character playing his role - but Remy saving the Chin from falling is one of the only acts of kindness we see him engage in. That implies Remy does value the Chin and/or feeling like a hero in some way... or if nothing else, he values the praise the Chin gives him.

As parents, the Buxaplentys are pretty interesting. Even by "dim FOP parents" standards, they're exceptionally bad at being loving - or even effective - parents.

- Remy's dad is so awkward, he's not even sure how to address Remy when we see them in "Fairy Fairy Quite Contrary." It's his wife that suggests he try "Son." Also, Remy's parents time themselves so they spend no more than 2 minutes per day with him, which they tell him openly.

- Remy's dad calls him "Liam" later, which isn't close to his name... but Remy's grateful to be acknowledged anyway, which has interesting implications. Remy takes anything he can get; putting up with what little scraps they offer to avoid the risk of turning them off the idea of reaching out to him.

- At the end of the episode, Timmy wishes Remy could spend more time with his parents. We can assume Cosmo and Wanda didn't want to hurt the Buxaplentys on purpose - especially given what we know (from episodes like "Boys In a Band" & "Go Young, West Man") about Da Rules preventing godkids from harming others directly.

So that begs the question... Was shipwrecking the Buxaplentys the only option to get them to pay attention to their son? That's kinda dark... Angela will turn down a book pitch to care for sick Hazel, but "Remy gets sick and a parent tends to him" was seemingly not on the table. Which does make sense in-universe- After all, there are plenty of butlers and staff who wait on Remy.

Remy even tells us that his parents stopped paying attention to him after about 3 seconds despite being stranded with him on a desert island, which is pretty bad... but it gets worse when you realize Remy was stranded between Seasons 2 and 5.

When he returns in "Remy Rides Again," he asks Timmy to "guess where he's been," and informs him he "just got back from an uncharted island."

Combining that with Remy's claim that his parents only paid attention to him for 3 seconds - and looking at the scenes of Remy foraging for food while he wears rags and his parents get involved with business despite being stranded - That's..... just awful.

That's a long time for Remy to be without the comforts of home or the comforts of Juandissimo while struggling to survive (and keep his parents alive along with him). Depending on where you personally place Timmy's time freeze, it can get way worse.

And Remy was just happy he had time with his parents... Happy to forage for food... Happy to get a headpat... and for what? They don't deserve you, kid.

For all his greediness and schemes, he is pretty grateful for what little he has. In addition to looking forward to spending time with his parents, when Remy is venting to Timmy at the end of "Remy Rides Again," not once does he mention "And I didn't have my nice things." He says "I didn't have my fairy, Juandissimo, to comfort me."

Remy's parents don't even take care of themselves, let alone pay attention to his needs. They chose not to leave the deserted island - and apparently took their sweet time calling for clothes to be delivered - and Remy seems to be the one in charge of food.

Also, the implication here is that Juandissimo gave some part of his physical form up so Remy could eat, which is horrifying?? Did that happen multiple times, considering these scenes take place immediately after the shipwreck and later after Remy's mom opens her luxury resort, so definitely different days? Did... did Remy reach the point where he was struggling to find food - or the more awful option, struggling to find food for himself because he was giving it to his parents first - and Juandissimo said "F that" ??? ... help.

On top of all this, the official canon is that Juandissimo couldn't hold a job after being separated from Remy because he was so hung up on Remy's situation (and his own shame that he failed), he couldn't stop crying, so he bounced from job to job.

It's the thing I love most about Juandissimo, because when he's introduced in FFQC, he's a huge lapdog for Da Rules, even going off about how not following them would lead to madness. But we learn one very, very important thing about Juandissimo in "Remy Rides Again"... which is that Juandissimo openly broke Da Rules to return Remy's memories.

He's very clear about this: "I decided to help you no matter what Da Rules say, so I gave you back your memories." Because he loved him... and he knew Remy's situation wouldn't get any better if he sat and did nothing. The godparenting program and Jorgen weren't going to help, so Juandissimo - who LOVES Da Rules - broke them.

We know Juandissimo returned those memories while Remy was on the island. That suggests Remy's parents had no intention to return to Dimmsdale... and presumably, they also didn't care Remy was missing school.

We know Remy got real clothes again at some point on the island, and we can assume he had food and a bed because his mom opened a luxury resort, but there's more a child needs... Schooling, medical care, social interaction with peers... everything about that situation just screams neglect. Serious neglect. "We literally do not care" levels of neglect.

Even when Remy's parents do return to Dimmsdale and care about his schooling again, they send him to a military school full of older kids and adults. And that seems at least a little reasonable on the surface - After all, Remy's been a brat, so of course they'd send him to a school for ne'er-do-wells - but that begs the question...

... What has he ever done to upset his parents?

Remy's envy leads him to be rude, sure. And he's presumably committing some kind of fraud or deception crimes in the background due to the implication in "The Big Bash" that he bribes people with checks, but puts stops on them later so they don't go through. These are things that happened when he was doing magical stuff away from home.

But all signs point to him being extremely respectful towards his parents even when they're very dismissive of him... even when he's been placed in terrible, scary situations like being shipwrecked on an uncharted island, not knowing if they'll survive. Remy is polite, does what he's told, never talks back, and volunteers to find food.

It's almost worse that his dad acknowledged Remy finding food was a good idea and still didn't lend a hand in that. The Buxaplentys are such concerning people, and that's just my recap of things that happened in Season 2 and Season 5.

According to Season 9's "Country Clubbed," Remy's dad hits "classless saps" with his limo on purpose every month - which sounds horrible even without the next part - and he does that so he has an excuse to invite them to the Fancy Schmancy Country Club and he and his friends can mock them (under the guise of allowing them access to the club in exchange for them not suing). He heavily implies he'd like to hit Timmy later since he didn't get him while hitting his parents.

That's really messed up... WHAT is going on in the Buxaplenty parents' heads?

The only slightly relieving thing from that statement is that presumably, they don't run over Remy because we can assume Remy isn't a "classless sap," but I don't think "choosing not to run your son over because he shares your wealth" is a real point in their favor.

I make no claims that Dale is a fantastic parent, but the weird thing is... I don't think Dale is outside the range of how other subpar parents in the FOP universe act. Except the Buxaplentys- They're pretty much the lowest of the low.

There are so many concerning things going on in the Dimmadome house, like terrible safety rails, and Dale does cut his son off, dehumanize him, and make him feel unwanted. This is all true.

But at least Dale knows Dev's name and calls him that. It's very possible he's aware of Dev's lactose intolerance (seeing as Dev had to get his allergy card from somewhere). At least Dale provided the au pairs to look after Dev and gave them the ability to cook and recognize when he wants a hug. Even if Dale doesn't go out of his way to hug Dev, he seems to like him enough that he's happy to clap a hand to his shoulder and talk to him. At least he seems interested in talking to him and hearing about his day.

Dale even tries to get Dev outside, but didn't snap at Dev when Dev lay down to play his game instead in "Stanky Danky." That was their father-son thing, though it would've been easy to leave Dev at home.

Dale arguably took charge of Dev's care during that event, seeing as the au pairs don't hover around Dev. idk if Dale made his 9-year-old walk home himself across a very busy road while he chased after Danky, but that's not the point.

The implication is that Dev tags along on Dale's walks to Signal Hill - and has done so many times - because Dev knows Dale's calls drop up there. It's implied Dev plays on that hill when his dad is on a call because Dev knows the grass makes you itchy if you roll down it. He'd probably played there recently since that was the first place to come to mind during the treasure hunt with Hazel, and he remembered the itchiness of the grass.

Dale even makes donations to Dev's school, which is more than the Buxaplentys ever did (See also, Remy likely missing school while shipwrecked).

Remy could die and his parents probably wouldn't spend a cent on his funeral... or get his name right in a eulogy without a lot of note-checking and effort. In fact, it wouldn't shock me if they hid his death so no one found out, because a dead son would be bad press.

Actually... It's very sad to imagine them putting more effort into hiding Remy's death than into caring for his life.

Shout-out to Chapter 10 of the 'fic "Buy Me Love" by DeliverUsFromEvie where Remy addresses two mansion employees by name, but they're confused to find out their boss has a kid and that said kid has been in the house this whole time. I think about it constantly. hey. what on earth.

This 'fic has one of the most brutal interpretations of Remy I've ever seen, and Evie has this and several other awesome works, so consider checking them out!

All of this said, there's something else that's interesting here, so let's talk "Turner Back Time."

I can't stop thinking about how when Timmy wished his ancestor (Ebeneezer) had decided to work with trains rather than dismissing them, that led to a timeline where the following things happened:

- Timmy's Dad still married his beloved Timmy's Mom (lol). Yeah, you're not prying him away from the love of his life for anything.

- Dimmsdale fell to ruin because Timmy's Dad wouldn't play the Rich People game right (Supporting the city's growth) and instead opted to drive trains off the tracks and crash them through buildings.

- The Turners lived in a mansion, but Timmy's bedroom is exactly the same, presumably because in the timeline where his family's rich, he needed a safe space untouched by his parents' branding.

- Despite Timmy's effort to become miserable, Dad kept showering him with affection and toys, so Timmy didn't qualify for fairies until he was tied to railroad tracks with a train hurtling towards him.

- The first thing Timmy did in his attempt to become miserable enough to qualify for fairies was decide not to eat... Same energy as when he felt guilty and refused to sleep in Season 1 ("Dream Goat").

There is something here about Timmy's Dad ignoring the train system, but being attentive to his son, while the Buxaplentys ignore their son, but Dimmsdale isn't in ruins.

I'll say 1 and only 1 positive thing about the Buxaplentys: At least their trains are on the tracks instead of careening through hospital walls. Honestly, the bar is so low, it is below the floor.

Timmy's Dad became a greedy person in that timeline, but he still chose to marry someone of lower social status, have a son, and be kind to his son- He's happy to greet him, encourages him to enjoy their wealth, and gifts Timmy lots of nice things. In that timeline, it's the Turners who have generational wealth. Dad was raised by generations of Turners and he still makes time for Timmy. Come on, Buxaplentys... Is it THAT hard to speak to your son like you're happy he exists?

Closing Thoughts

The Buxaplentys are definitely an old money family while the Dimmadomes and Ed Leadly give off new money energy (to me).

Neither Doug nor Ed was seen at the Fancy Schmancy Country Club in S9's "Country Clubbed." All the people who were there have names that play on wealth. They also dress in a much more "upper class" way than Leadly with his flashy yellow suit or Doug with his Southern/Western theme.

The Dimmadomes represent business-related wealth and big company vibes, and I'd call them eccentric. Compare Doug's precariously perched cliffside estate (S3's "Engine Blocked") to Remy's telescope-

I really hope he decorates that hat for the holidays

The energy I get from this is "Doug doing whatever he wants just because he can"... which is also the impression I get from the "Crock Talk" scene that shows his hat stretching through the limo roof. Doug does business things and hosts events, but keeps to himself unless he's doing business things.

Comparatively, Leadly is all-in on his pencil branding, and the Buxaplentys flaunt their wealth in everyday life. As in, they buy the most expensive version of anything they want and like to showcase their wealth.

But while Doug and Dale have "Do what I want" energy, the Buxaplentys seem more restricted by social expectation.

That is, the Buxaplentys dress very nice and dine with fancy people- even their 11-year-old wears a tux, bowtie, and cummerbund. Buxaplentys are very "Flaunt wealth & do what people expect of us." They don't go out of their way to do "silly, eccentric" things like putting a hat on their mansion, but they sure will buy golden, diamond-studded things.

Well, that wraps up my analysis on Dimmsdale's wealthy families, who each intrigue and frighten me in their own unique ways... whether that be money laundering, holding back a magical forest, or being absolutely awful parents.

Thanks for reading!

[charmwasjess]

Hi Jess! I have been reading the Darth Plagueis book, wherein he says that to get a true Sith, you can’t just corrupt a Jedi, you have to go a lot further… as much as Dooku was the right hand man of Palpatine, I think he was a lot less “true Sith Lord” and a lot more “fallen Jedi”… thoughts?

P.S. what do you think would’ve happened if Obi-Wan and Dooku joined forces? I’m not sure if you have written about them yet 

Always good to hear from you, bud! :D What a fantastic question!

I’ll start off by pointing out that Sidious, who as The Big Sith Master is the only dude who gets to say who is or isn’t a Sith, seems to consider him one, in an official capacity. But I TOTALLY see what you’re saying, and I tend to agree with you (and with Plagueis!) I think Dooku’s storytelling role, his identity in the saga, is that of a fallen Jedi, not characterizing the typical qualities in a Sith Lord. He might be officially a Sith, but narratively, it almost doesn’t matter. 

You know, it’s Dooku: Jedi Lost, not Dooku: Sith Rising. There’s no denying that Dooku is an unconventional Sith, to say the least. He only flashes Sith eyes once. He still uses his Jedi lightsaber form - a lightsaber form which is all about disarming, not deathblows. He has a notoriously difficult time killing, and seems to put off important kills out of blatant sentimentality, or get someone else to do them, often halfheartedly. On the sliding scale from “moments where he visibly looks miserable” in Clone Wars to some of the Legends novels where Dooku as a POV character outright describes his own life in excruciating terms full of regret and desperation, we as viewers are to understand that Dooku’s decision is the ultimate sunk-cost fallacy, one he pays for again and again. A miserable dance that concludes on his knees with that very expressive final look at Sidious. We see that he has wagered wrongly, and more, in that moment, that he finally knows it – just as much as we do. 

And of course, there are plenty of reasons for the conflict in the character  - everything from his motivations of corrupted idealism to the simple fact of old habits. I mean, Anakin spent 23 years as Vader as opposed to 14 years in the Order; Dooku, a mere 13 years as Tyranus, with a 60 year Jedi career hardcoded into his body.

But I think it’s more than just how Dooku feels about his identity as a Sith. Some of it is surely how Sidious treats him. 

To Sidious, Dooku is a servant and a patsy, a stopgap solution to his Maul -> Anakin apprentice problem, and certainly not ever as an heir to his and Plagueis’s Sith line. He is not training Dooku to carry on the legacy and knowledge of the Sith after he’s gone. (It’s arguable that Sidious doesn’t think anyone will NEED to carry it on, as he himself will be immortal.) Still, it’s not hard to see that Sidious does not have a lot of motivation or time to thoroughly sithize Dooku or give him an equal stake. Dooku himself behaves unreliably, is resentful and argumentative, can’t stop collecting minions, and plotting to overthrow his Master seems to be the one part of being a Sith that Dooku actually enjoys. He’s a liability to Sidious- and teaching him more Sith lore and powers just makes him more of a threat. 

Dooku himself articulates it well, so I'll give the last word to him. Here he is talking about what it’s like to be a Sith apprentice from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous:

[adobe-outdesign]

Nigel: The Muppets' Most Interesting Uninteresting Character

(This was supposed to be a fun little post about an obscure Muppet character but now I fell down a hole doing too much research and sunk cost fallacy won't let me live it down unless I include all of the useless information I've learned so enjoy knowing more about this character than you ever have or ever will want to know)

Nigel was created to be the host of the Muppet Show's Sex and Violence pilot instead of Kermit (who only appears in the pilot for like 30 seconds)

He was originally puppeteered by Jim Henson himself, giving him a vaguely Kermit-esq voice initially

Nigel Voice Count: 1

Nigel is a yellow... something. You’d assume he’s just a stylized human Muppet but in S4E18 Sam refers to him as a “thing”

He actually looks near-identical to a Fraggle minus the tail. I don’t know what to do with this information

Nigel was diagnosed with terminal Boring Personality disease due to the following attributes:

He’s very meek. Unlike Kermit, who will freak out and tell people they suck to their faces, Nigel raises his voice one (1) time and mostly relies on Sam the Eagle and Crazy Harry to deal with the assorted chaos

His face is flexible like Kermit’s, but he has permanently partially-lidded eyes that leave him looking exhausted in every scene he’s in

He’s generally unenthusiastic and seems like he wants to go home constantly

Jim Henson: The Works describes him as "lacking in spunk and charisma," which is hilariously cruel yet 100% accurate

What’s surprising at this point is that instead of scrapping him, he instead took on the role of orchestra conductor on the show proper, where he proceeds to do almost nothing for five seasons

The Muppets Character Encyclopedia actually provides a canon reason for this: Nigel lost the job of host due to his “shy manner”, and Kermit, feeling bad for replacing him, gave him his new job

He can technically be seen in basically every episode during the theme song, but aside from that, he often pops up in the chorus during songs

Which is funny when you consider he should be in the pit Doing His Job during those sequences

A quick list of his more important (if you can even call them that) appearances:

S1E2: He has Zoot play a song called “Sax and Violence” b/c pilot references

It’s actually implied the Mayhem falls under his jurisdiction as he threatens to fire Zoot, but this never comes up again

S1E24: Playing the part of a library patron noisily chewing gum (despite not having teeth. idk you figure it out). This one’s only notable because he’s wearing the same outfit from the pilot

S3E16: Nigel’s eyelids are not connected to the rest of his body and he’s facing backwards through the entire backstage segment so you’re uncomfortably aware of this

S1E23 has Floyd complaining that the theme song is cringe(TM), at which point it’s casually revealed that Nigel wrote it?? how is this character so important and unimportant at the exact same time

If you’ve seen this episode and aren’t deaf you might have noticed he has a completely different voice here. This is because John Lovelady has taken over as his puppeteer, presumably because Jim was busy Running The Entire Show

Nigel Voice Count: 2

Nigel has a talent for whistling, which is shown off in S2E18 during a performance with Floyd (this is the only time he comes on stage to perform that isn’t with a crowd)

He shows this off again in S4E18 to participate in the age-old sport of Annoying Sam the Eagle backstage

As of the 2011 movie Walter takes over as the show’s resident whistler because Nigel isn’t allowed to have character traits

He briefly shows up during the credits of The Muppet Movie (now puppeteered by Dave Goelz). Because of this, in the UK version of the end credits, he has another completely different voice

Nigel Voice Count: 3

After a brief background appearance in The Jim Henson Hour (S1E12), Nigel proceeded to completely disappear for 20 years

I’m guessing the reason was that his puppet was becoming unusable. The foam used for the muppets disintegrates over time, and his puppet was ~15 years old at this point

Things were particularly bleak for him in the 90s because Muppets Tonight came out with a new unrelated TV director character named... Nigel. Because Jim had passed away at this point and I think everyone working on the show literally Forgot they already had a character named that

Not that it would be that big of a problem, seeing as the chances of yellow Nigel returning were bleak. who was gonna spend time and money rebuilding an incredibly minor background character like him

TRICK QUESTION because he was rebuilt for The Muppets (2011), which is pretty amazing when you consider that he does Nothing during this movie

The new puppet looks pretty similar to the old one. I think the face is a bit rounder/more structured but I could also be losing my mind

(Side note: shoutout to whoever decided to give him a scarf in this scene. that’s such an unnecessary detail)

What’s great is that now that the puppet’s been rebuilt he’s shown up in a lot of stuff because they have no reason not to include him. Some of the more notable examples include:

The music video for OK Go’s cover of the theme song (which I certainly hope he would show up in I mean. it’s his song)

In the live shows (The Muppets Take the Bowl and The Muppets Take the O2) there’s a parade of overlooked characters, which includes Nigel. I just find it funny that:

A) The writers fully acknowledge that he’s King of the Background Characters

B) The in-universe implication that Kermit was like “no one knows who you are, wanna be in a parade celebrating that fact” and Nigel was like “okay”

His most recent appearance was in Muppets Haunted Mansion, where he’s dead (don’t worry about it). More importantly, he gets an entire shot to himself conducting some skulls, which I think is the first time the camera’s been focused solely on him in literally 40 years. Good job, buddy!

Here’s some other misc appearances that I couldn’t fit elsewhere:

He appears alongside Jim and a few other Muppets in a 1977 commercial for American Express (once again wearing his pilot outfit), which is particularly strange considering he’s the only character there that used to be puppeteered by Jim

In 2010 he got a somewhat important role in the first issue of Muppet Sherlock Holmes, playing the part of a butler suspected of poisoning the head of the house

He gets one whole page in The Muppets Character Encyclopedia from 2014 (right next to other Nigel). In addition to the aforementioned info bridging the gap between the pilot and the show proper, it also states that he’s susceptible to hypnosis and he trained at the Tommy Newsom Academy for Music and Charisma

In terms of future projects: there is both a Jim Henson biopic and documentary coming in the future (side note: why???), so it’s possible he might be discussed briefly in one of those

I have no thesis statement or reason for writing this, but I guess I’ll close out by saying that I find it fascinating that a failed main character from a pilot episode is still appearing in recent Muppet productions but solely as a background character. I hope that in 2073 I can put on some Muppet media and Nigel will still be there still doing absolutely nothing

thanks for coming to my TED talk

[hubristicassholefight]

Hubristic Asshole Fight: Round 1 Part 1b

Anakin Skywalker (Star Wars) vs Feanor (The Silmarillion)

Propaganda below cut

Anakin

Decided that he would become stronger than death to stop those he cares about from dying after failing to accept his mother's death. When he begins getting visions/nightmares like he had before losing his mother of his wife dying in childbirth, he decides to team up with an evil sorcerer and mastermind to learn the secret to stopping death. The price he willingly paid was leading the slaughter of the community of peacekeeping monks who had raised him from nine years old, feeling guilt about his heinous betrayal even as he unflichingly continued the massacre (sunk cost fallacy to a very extreme degree). The unintended price he paid was the loss of his limbs and independence after his injuries during a fight with his mentor and brother figure, his wife dying on childbirth due to the great stress of his heinous actions, and being separated from his children until they were adults firmly opposed to the imperial regime he became the attack dog for (only knowing of their survival until after he had personally attacked them both); He literally did not have to do any of that. his wife Padmè very very very very much did not want him to do any of that. He was completely absorbed in his own inability to deal with loss that he deadlock refused to consider losing family again and then he went and killed what amounted to his extended family, his wife and the man who raised and guided him from age 9. And his own kids unknowingly. In terms of accomplishing your goals there really really wasn't much more he could have fucked up. And when it comes down to key moments, all he had to do was not cut off mentor and co-worker Mace Windu's hand with a laser sword and everything would have been fine. He's a nominee for Fail King of All Time to me

He thinks he's hot shit which, he is, but like cool it dude you don't have to mass murder maim mutilate your way through life to prove you're the extra most specialest bestest psychic space wizard;

Hubrised so hard he 1) lost his limbs and his skin 2) became what he hated 3) caused the very death he sought to prevent, betraying and destroying himself for nothing; So soaking wet and self aware that he cried committing atrocities. If he knew what hubris was, he'd agree he has a lot of it

Feanor

The definition of hubris. Created the silmarils who were so perfect even the gods praised them. Got them stolen by the gods evil brother (so essentially fantasy satan). Then decided to go fight the evil god to get the silmarils back and swore an oath binding him and his sons to get them back no matter who would stand in their way. This drastically backfired when some other elves stood in his way so he murdered them. Got cursed by the gods for this (together with his entire family and everyone who followed them). Told the gods that they were of the same kind as fantasy satan and that they would end up following him

Morgoth (a god) shows up at his house and Feanor (professional hater of gods) tells him to get fucked* and slams the door in his face. *”Get thee gone from my gate thou jail-crow of Mandos!”; He has never spent anything wrong ever aside from all the war crimes.

The Valar (gods) asked Feanor for help in saving the world from being in total darkness and he said “no, figure it out yourselves”. Repeatedly and intentionally goes against their orders leading to war and chaos; I know it’s left open ended to what really happened to him after he died, but I hope he never repents. I hope he stays an antagonistic and egotistical bastard after being reimbodied (brought back to life) and continues to make it everyone else’s problem. I love him.

I’m gonna have to try to do this without a sing Tolkien scholarship words so bear with me. Basically my dude is one of the smartest and most talented elves in the world. Unfortunately he has a lot of daddy issues AND mommy issues largely due to the fact that his mom died when he was a kid and decided not to come back (as elves can do). No one else has this problem. He invented a ton of important stuff and had seven sons. His most prized creation was three gems called the Silmarils, which contained the light of the Two Trees, which gave light to the world before they were destroyed. When the Valar (the gods of Tolkien’s world) asked if they could use the Silmarils to potentially create another light source, he emphatically refused and in fact became so jealous of them that he and his sons swore an oath that anyone who so much as touched them would die by their swords. Sauron’s boss steals the gems and Feanor decides that he will lead his people on a crusade to retrieve and avenge them. This results in the death of him, most of his people, and almost his entire family minus one of his sons, Galadriel, and Elrond; He once yelled at the devil to get off his lawn

went to war with morgoth (satan basically) against the will of the gods and made a whole speech to said gods about how they were gonna feel really silly when he killed morgoth and saved the whole world. he never actually did battle with morgoth because he died on like day 1 of getting to middle earth (he left like 2/3 of his forces behind because he didn’t trust them) and spontaneously combusted upon his death; he’s a huge asshole and a mad scientist and linguist and prince with daddy issues and also mommy issues

Dude thought he could win a fight with the devil, tried to just walk into Angband (Mordor before Mordor actually existed), made an oath to kill everyone that tries to take his creations even the Valar (angelic like beings) and ends up causing his death, his sons deaths and a bunch of other deaths; His name is quite literally spirit of fire Is basically regarded as THE greastest elf Is in fact THE best smith of the elves and crafts their most precious jewels (that end up causing so much death) Is THE linguist to the point of creating the alfabet every one uses even after The Crimes, creates a bunch of things that are used even after The Crimes actually Loves his dad more than the things he made Is the only recorded elf with seven kids Is married to a sculpter that is so good that people confuse her statues as actual people (a propaganda because he had to be good to actually bag her you know) Manages to create jewelry so good even the the angelics beings sent by god are surprised he managed to do it So good at making speeches that it leads to a rebellion against said angelic beings and a lot of people to leave paradise with him His mother died because his spirit was too powerful Invented kinslaying after trying to steal some boats for said rebellion Swears an oath that destroys his whole family (but adds a great flavour to the rest of the story) Tells the devil to fuck off and slams his house door on said devils face Dies via auto combustion because his spirit was just too powerful for a normal death Gets stuck in the afterlife (that elves can usually just return from) for spiting the Valar Is said he will have an important role in Tolkien’s version of Ragnarok by letting the jewels he previously promised to kill for be destroyed to defeat the devil

Because of his pride, he went against the gods because the evil god Morgoth stole his life's work (the Silmarils, 3 shiny gems that radiated the light of the two trees that a huge evil spider had sapped dry). Swore (with his 7 sons) an oath to hunt Morgoth and retrieve his shiny gems. Commited kinslaying, burned some boats, combusted to ashes after suffering mortal wounds at the hands of corrupted demi-gods. Consequences of his actions could be seen long long after his death: the oath was passed on to his sons to hopelessly fulfill (failure after failure, including two more kinslayings, one of them casting himself into a fiery volcano, another wandering the shores for eternity);

[moodymisty]

I know people make jokes like “I can fix him” on konrad x reader fics. But now that I think about it, the fics that you write have less of an “I can fix him” vibe and more of an “I can love him so much that it changes the course of his entire narrative” vibe. And by narrative I mean the bad- future prophesies that he’s running towards tunnel vision style. And to be honest, it’s not like it would be impossible to do that. The main reason for why he goes forward with creating the most negative future for himself is because of sunk cost fallacy, if he chooses a different path now then all of the torturing and maiming and murder was for nothing, then all of it was meaningless violence when there could’ve been a thousand ways to deal with those situations more kindly and peacefully. And in his eyes this would mean that he’s an irredeemable monster, so when faced with that possibility in canon I’m pretty sure that he has a mental breakdown (though don’t quote me on it).

So I feel like in a universe where he has someone who loves him theres a possibility for him to start questioning his logic. If he was wrong about the future you’d still stay with him, and that’s not how people treat an irredeemable monster, right? He’d be your beloved even if the cruelty was all for nothing, and I think that would really throw him for a loop. Because suddenly there’s less of that need to follow through with a grimdark future (though not fully, he’d need years to unlearn all of it) when he sees that not all is lost for him. Like hmm perhaps it’s better to admit that you were wrong and to do better next time instead of getting assassinated to (badly) prove your point that you never did anything wrong ever? Who knows??

Also I believe that he’d avoid futures where you get hurt/killed or even actively try to prevent them from happening. But that doesn’t have anything to do with what I was talking about before, this is just good old fashioned hypocrisy

It’s personal preference where I prefer the vibe of Konrad still being a nightmare, and that while he loves his beloved, he also drains them dry of any hope and love. He’s unfixable, but dammit do you try anyways even if it breaks your back.

And adversely Konrad when faced with someone who doesn’t inadvertently or on purpose fuel his martyr complex, completely crumbles into this wet excuse of a man who’s never actually felt any real love. Actually having someone there for him even if it’s after everything that’s happened to him would probably change his overall attitude a decent bit. He never saw you in his future, so maybe the future leaves some things out? Maybe every part of his life isn’t so set in stone? Or maybe you’re outside of his future, and accident, a change in his path.

He’d absolutely do anything to prevent your death. No matter how extreme the measure he would do it.

Now if your death is caused by him? … he has trouble processing that one without breaking down.

[ckret2]

Hey, do the Henchmaniacs actually consider Bill a friend and vice versa or just a means to an end, in Weridmaggedon it didn't seem like they were actual friends but more like he controls them through intimidation and they follow him because they have a similar goal. Does Bill just not know how to act towards friends in a healthy way but still consider them such? Love your fic btw.

It varies from member to member.

Most of them, if not all, did consider him a friend—often their best friend—when they joined.

Some still consider him a friend, some call him a friend because they desperately want him to be, some call him a friend because of the sunk cost fallacy ("if I've done this much and gone this far for him, and I CAN'T even count him a friend, then what was it all for??"), some call him a friend because they fear the consequences if they don't, some call him a friend because it's convenient and he wants them to but they solely consider him a resource, a boss, an ally, whatever.

He both does and doesn't see them as friends; he can change his mind twice a sentence without changing it at all. It depends on how he feels at any given time. Yes they're his friends because he's desperately lonely and he craves friends; no they're not his friends because he's above them and they're idiots and they're useful but he certainly doesn't like them. He loves none of them; but he loves how they love him. He tells himself they love him, except when it's useful for him to tell himself they fear him.

But: if they ONLY feared him, they wouldn't stick around. There's a mix of fear and admiration, fear and camaraderie, fear and affection. Something to balance out the arm-twisting, the feeling of always being watched, the ever-present psychological pressure.

Intimidation is a tactic of last resort. Intimidation doesn't mean he's lost his temper; it means the Henchmaniac screwed up. It's an effective punishment but it's a poor way to maintain long term control.

It's a lot easier to control people by convincing them you're the best thing that's ever happened to them and you have their best interests at heart.

You can see how he controls them in the last chapter. His power is laced through the entire scene.

A side-effect of growing up in the Henchmaniacs was that Paci-Fire regarded The Authorities as a nebulous bogeyman that was personally out to get him and all his family and friends. Do you think he picked up that belief accidentally?

"Oh, yeah, pretty much every world in my galaxy was still ground bound when Bill recruited me." Go after someone who isn't knowledgeable about the multiverse; who doesn't know Bill's reputation; and who can't call on the people he left behind to help him get home...

"But the rent's really reasonable for a place this size in this part of the Nightmare Realm." ...then minimize the resources he has to get out—finances included—and make him think you're doing him a favor.

"Bill Cipher was always a most droll prankster." Get the people around you to laugh off your cruel, controlling behavior as "just a joke." Do you think they'd call charging just one guy rent a "prank" if Bill hadn't done similar things in the past and gone "C'mooon, relax, it's just a joke!"?

"I mean—I was paying it to Bill. But I dunno who took that over, so I guess, kinda... no one?" "You were supposed to give it to me now." Keep people close by who will back up your bull. (Useful if they tear each other down; they'll be more likely to resent each other than you.)

"I don't know... Bill and I were talking about them once, and I realized they're as bad as Mom was. Bill said probably the only reason they didn't treat me as bad is because they never got the opportunity—" Make him believe you're the only one who cares about him. Cut him off from potential support networks.

"Face it: the only reason the rest of us didn't leave the Nightmare Realm millennia ago is because Bill couldn't leave." Keep them all isolated.

"Bill's not a liar!" The people who have been around him the longest have sunk so much into trusting him and following him that they can't afford to think it might have been lies.

"The only reason we've stayed so long is because everyone's too starstruck or too scared to ditch him!" 8 Ball's hit the nail on the head. To some extent, he's figured out how Bill operates and he's gotten past the stage where he tells himself it'll be all right if he just sticks it out...

8 Ball, he'd tried to split four or five times before crawling back, but Kryptos didn't care about him anyway. Bill had always been right about him: he was too selfish to care about the rest of the gang but too stupid to make it on his own. They'd taken in losers like that before. ...and, not coincidentally, Bill's been badmouthing and undermining 8 Ball to the others. "Selfish," "stupid," "loser." Also: 8 Ball, too, has been unable to make it out—do you think Bill offered any help any of those times he tried to leave?

The shapes were here because Bill had promised to make them a new home. He was the only one in all of reality who could do it. They'd held fast to Bill's promise for a trillion years. Who would they be if they lost it? Hell of a sunk cost. If you've been waiting one trillion years for somebody to fulfill a promise, any rational person would assume they'll never fulfill it; but, after waiting one trillion years, how can you possibly leave? When you've waited an eternity of eternities? Was it all just a waste? But it'll all be worth it, if—when—he keeps his promise.

Yet he was still here, and still waiting, because he didn't know what else to do. And who was it that convinced the shapes to pin their every single hope for the future on Bill?

You didn't get many chances to be the star of the show when you lived around a supernova like Bill. And what do you think being kept down like that so long does to somebody's sense of self-esteem and self-sufficiency?

Be their protector; keep them dependent on you; keep them isolated; convince them to give up everything (time, money, family, freedom) for you; ensure they have nowhere else to turn.

And that is how Bill controls the Henchmaniacs. His friends will never leave him if he's given them no other choice!

Because when he does leave them a choice, inevitably, they do leave, and it breaks his heart. They leave him quickly, and angrily, and never come back.

Gee, I wonder why.

(I've said before I headcanon Bill's backstory as a former cult leader. Honestly? I shouldn't be saying "former.")

[multiversal-madness]

Thinking about the Bronev family again, I hope this is coherent-

(Cw non graphic mentions of child death, Azran Legacy spoilers ahead)

Leon Bronev, a man who was likely once a good ordinary man gets kidnapped along with his wife, leaving behind their two young children because he’d found something big about the Azran (did that make it his fault? Did he blame himself?). He loses his wife while there (I’m partial to the headcanon that it wasn’t just a normal sickness) and endures who knows what other hells while stuck in that cult for decades, ending up with nothing left but the Azran.

He turns down darker and darker paths going on some twisted version of a sunk cost fallacy (he’s gone this far already, why not go further?) until he either knowingly or unknowingly orders the murder of his granddaughter and daughter in law. Then he does it, he completes his goal, he solves the last puzzle of the Azran only for all of it to have been for nothing. Then he dies for it, but is revived with the rest and thus being unable to pay with his life. He’s arrested, likely too old at this point to hold out any hope of making amends or fixing what he’s done.

Hershel Bronev, still a young child when his parents are stolen from him and he’s left with caring for his younger brother. Then they get news that he’s going to be adopted alone, that he’d have to leave Theodore behind. Instead of that, he gives up this better life and his name, giving it all to his little brother who he wouldn’t see again for decades. He becomes Desmond Sycamore

He grows up devouring his father’s archeology books, to find a way to get some kind of revenge on the ones who stole his family from him. Instead he finds peace, he finds a new family, people who love him and people he loves the same. But it doesn’t last. Targent comes again to steal his family away, this time with his own Father at the head. Desmond Sycamore dies and he becomes Jean Descole.

But despite now loathing Targent, hating his father, he follows in their footsteps. Threatening loved ones, manipulating people, even attempting to kill a child (Luke was only 10 the first time Descole had tried to kill him), all so he could be the one to uncover the Azran. He becomes like his father in more than just appearance, but does he even realise this?

He’s put on many different faces before, but he pulls Desmond from his grave to use as a mask for what should be his final trick. He meets his brother again, but he’s the only one who knows it. Throughout their journey, he almost finds that peace again, but he knows it won’t last, he won’t be tricked again. He goes forth with his plan, revealing himself attempting to claim the sanctuary for himself.

But then he jumps in front of a laser for Luke, sacrificing himself for the boy he’d attempted to kill on more than one occasion (Maybe Desmond Sycamore still existed somewhere inside him…) On what would be his deathbed, he tells his rival of their connection, of them being blood. Then they leave to confront Bronev, he should have died but he couldn’t, not yet. He drags himself to final chamber, dying and being revived with the rest of them before disappearing, leaving loose ends untied. Now Descole has no reason to exist either. Who is he?

Then There’s Theodore Bronev, but that wasn’t his name anymore. He was given his brothers first name, given his new parents’ last name, he was Hershel Layton, he has been for most of his life.

He endures tragedy after tragedy, not even remembering the first, but he doesn’t let that change him. He loses his best friend (loses the rest of the Stansbury gang), his partner (then a month in a coma) and even when he remembers his lost family, he stays a good man, a true gentleman.

I don’t know how to end this, just wish I could add a section on Rachel but we know so little about her ugh

[glade-constellation]

I've seen your takes in eclipse, and as a new TSAMS fan I honestly agree, man's a cornered dog that everyone's been trying to put down ever since they learned of his existence. That said, do you know about any fic recs that actually explore the points you're making? I would appreciate if you share some! Or just tell me about an ao3 tag I could visit!

Sorry this took me a moment to get to! I’m terrible at not bookmarking things so I had to dig through the TSAMS tag. This list isn’t in any particular order. Not all of these dig deep into Eclipse’s character but, if they don’t, they’re still good Eclipse-centric fics that I recommend giving a read.

For a general tag to check out, usually “Eclipse Redemption”, “Redemption Arc”, or even “Fix-It Fic” will get you something. There’s not really one definite tag for it sadly, and stories that aren’t redemption arcs don’t typically go deep into Eclipse as a character.

As for fic recommendations, I’ll put the list under the cut :

Rising Eclipse (Sun and Moon AU)

by BrightStar2000

After Sun's minor spell mistake, Eclipse finds himself alive, and not exactly well. He can't move without causing himself immense pain. He has nothing, but time, and Eclipse finds himself reflecting on his actions, and actively regretting them. What will begin as a revenge mission, becomes his chance at redeeming himself.

First in a series! I do recommend the whole series if this one interests you. This takes place after Eclipse’s first death, and goes into a lot of the guilt Eclipse V1 was shown to have. Mostly from Eclipse’s POV.

Sunk Cost Fallacy

by thedemonsurfer

"the phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial"

Or–

Eclipse has put too much effort into getting the star to give it up now. Even if it kills him.

Honestly recommend anything by Demon. All of their stories do an amazing job at digging into Eclipse and why he is the way he is. This particular one takes place after Eclipse V2 gets the Star, and shows how the Star affects him both mentally and physically.

Forgotten But Not Gone

by Smol40

Eclipse did...something. Why can't Sun and Moon remember?

Another Eclipse V2 where Eclipse has the Star. His loneliness and guilt gets to him, and he decided to try and wipe everyone’s memories to make his own family. (I would pay close attention to the tags on this one, especially the “Bittersweet Ending” one.)

Ghost in the Machine

by Snorp_Lord

Emails start coming through on Moon's computer with helpful information, but no name on them. Each email gives him more questions.

The sender turns out to be the last person he expects.

Short but good. Takes place when Eclipse V2 is working with Killcode and is trapped in the computer system. Moon and Eclipse actually get to talk about a few things.

Karma’s Bitter, But So Am I

by SinisterShepard

He lost. Eclipse actually lost. Banished to a forest with no one to help his quickly degrading state, Eclipse has to decide between his dignity or death.

And, once the pain sets in, he quickly realizes how much he's willing to lose for the promise of another day. Even if that day involves pushing Lunar even further away than before.

Amidst all this, he still manages to say the wrong thing, which...may end up costing his life all over again, judging by that look in Blood Moon's eyes.

~

Set after "The Death of Eclipse"

This will have 5 parts, and is a sort of redemption arc for Eclipse. That isn't obvious in the first chapter though.

One of the things I love about this series is how Eclipse still keeps his asshole-ish personality after his redemption. It’s one of the fanfics that I feel still keeps him pretty in character to canon after he’s supposed to be better.

Canaries in a Cage

by 22FluffyTheSpider123

Life in the terrarium while far from convenient, was somewhat getting a little easier. Even if most days left Sun with little to do and bored out of his mind. But he was still alive at least, which was certainly something given the name and overall existence of his captor.

Perilous situation that forces Sun and Eclipse to actually communicate and work together? Amazing.

Charade

by thedemonsurfer

Even false comfort is welcomed when you have nothing else.

(Is it really fake or are you just in denial?)

---

Sun and Eclipse share a moment of mutual comfort despite agreeing that they hate one another.

Another Demon recommendation. Another good fanfic that goes over Sun and Eclipse’s relationship.

Kill Code, You Are the Father

by I_See_Four

An Alternate Dimension where KC tries to build his family and connect with his sons. Due to miscommunications and general Kill Code shenanigans, it's a rocky road but attempts were made. Lunar gets caught right in the middle.

Just when things are looking up, old conflicts and threats of alternative dimensional possibilities come back to haunt them.

Diverges from the Sun and Moon show lore roughly around "Bloodmoon and Killcode TEAM UP?!".

This is not Eclipse-centric, but does do a very good job at dealing with both his and Lunar’s trauma. Honestly, just an overall good fix-it fic for TSAMS.

[caffeine-high]

KIAN KUSHIM?

STUPID IDIOT MOTHERFUCKING KIAN GOD DAMN FOOL BODY STEALING DUST EATING OLD ASS BASTARD SHITHEAD IDIOT CARRIER OF THE WHORE RELIC BIGGEST CLOWN IN THE CIRCUS LAUGHED OUT OF TOWN COWBOY MOTHERFUCKING KIAN

THINKS HE KNOWS ALL YET FUCKING LOST TO PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T EVEN OPEN A FUCKING DOOR

KIAN “YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE AWESOMENESS OF MY PLAN” KIAN FUCKING 4000 YEARS OLD YET NEVER LEARNED EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE GIVING 13 YEAR OLD YELLING AT VIDEO GAMES CHIQUE

SPENT 4000 YEARS BEFORE BEING ABLE TO DO RITUALS, LOOSES THEM IMMEDIATELY TO A GIRL WHO ONLY TRANSCENDED FOR THE FIRST TIME A DAY PRIOR

STOP PINNING ME WHEN I TALK ABOUT KAIN I HATE HIM SO MUCH WHY DOES HE HAVE SO MANY FUCKED UP RITUALS WHY DID HE DECIDE TO FUCK AROUND AND FIND OUT JUST SET THEM LOOSE MAN HAS SUCH A VISCERAL AFFECT ON ME

if i could go to tenebris and explore the unexplored, but the other side said kian was waiting inside i would piss on the other side’s feet for the sole purpose of getting sent back to reality, i would make a thiago and cesar special and kick that door so hard it gives me damage to close it

if i had to deal with taking kian seriously for one moment of my fucking life not only will i close the tab i will delete every bookmark and generated subtitle out of fucking spite have to watch all of desconjuração again and spend half my life in the manor for the experience of being able to then skip over the parts where kian is mentioned 

yes he has a fucked up backstory to explain how he is, but it does not explain just how much of a fucking child he is wheeeh wheeh you were mean to me so now i have to kill you and keep beating your dead body while shouting about how superiour i am SHUT THE FUCK UP 

if the mask they put him is does not include a fucking gag i will go all eliasbouchard on him

paypal.com/FuckingHateKianKushim every cent goes towards getting merch shipped to places it currently is not

the story should not even be about him, taking 4000 years just to get marked and get noticed by senpai then to looses all of that within a fucking year

mr i am the first occultist mr i know all, mr planned for this his whole 4000 year life and managed to so catastrophically fuck up that within a year it is undone

man’s never heard of the sunk cost fallacy, oh i've already killed thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people truly i cannot stop now FUCKER you can quit at any time ya know best time was 4000 years ago next best time was after the first life you took next next best time after the  second, but truly, the (next*x^n)th best time is right fucking now

handpicked an elite team of marked and they could not even stop hating each other enough to work together and despite that they still worked with YOUR enemies to lock you up

disconjuration? well discon-tinue your fucking story mate 

i fucking hope we know the exact date of your imprisonments because im going to set a reminder in my phone and every year i will see it and i will laugh at this fucker who at the height of his power could not even keep himself composed enough to not sound like a fucking preteen who needs a nap

[megacross-ground-zero-rated-r]

Oh, interesting. The FNAF books include a plotline where Springtrap intentionally springlocked himself. Didn't know that when I wrote something similar myself as part of a fake backstory he gives. Haven't looked into the specifics of the book plotine yet.

One consistent trait that I always give various versions of William is that he looooooves lying. And even my more sympathetic version in Fazbear Fault Lines who's backed into corners where he's forced to lie constantly, he still feels immense satisfaction at pulling off a big lie.

Megacross Springtrap has this big, grand story about being a manager / engineer / the sole performer for Spring Bonnie at Fredbear's in which he paints himself as another victim of the predatory company. He slowly watched everything fall apart, including the Springlock Suits because he couldn't get enough parts ordered for them. He gave the parts he did have to Fredbear, putting himself at risk of being crushed to death so other people would have a safe suit.

Sunk cost fallacy, pride, and a lot of other factors lead him to stay, then come up with a plan.

Long story short he tries to fake a Springlock incident "mangling his arm" to force Fazbear to stop using these specific suits as mascot costumes and it ends horribly. Not even retire them period or sue for damages, just stop making people climb into these deathtraps. "That's all I wanted, to keep people safe," and he killed one other person and got Springlocked for it.

Fazbear discovers this plan and fakes a manifesto that paints him as delusional while he's drugged into a coma, attempting to achieve Godhood by fusing metal and flesh. Megacross Springtrap's tone talking about this is quite incredulous, but he admits it was a genius move on their part to smear him: People would much rather believe one guy just lost it and crunched himself over the grim reality of how much Fazbear has been covering up. The community turns on him because of the manifesto and the tragic death of the person who tried to pull the Springlocks open.

Now I don't think it's a bad thing to have William be a remorseless killer AND a mad scientist. He can contain multitudes. The fact he was confident he understood remnant enough to rely on it saving him despite his paralyzing fear of death CAN provide a lot of interesting possibilities.

One way I can think of off the top of my head is his experiments always fail miserably, but his ego is so inflated, he cannot accept the idea of ever making a mistake, that he always rewrites his hypothesis to match what the data shows. He does this again and again but never takes the leap of faith in his own intelligence because some part of him knows how little he really understands. Then his hand gets forced, possibly by the threat of being jailed for his unethical experiments.

IDK just thought it was an interesting coincidence.

[torchbearing]

omega men (2015), issue #4.

it's incredibly interesting to me that in a way or another, kyle's story circles around loss, grief and the burden of power. not once has it ever been said that being a ring bearer for him was a positive thing and by now, it's all about sunk cost fallacy: he has lost too much and given away too many pieces of himself to give it up. it's not a power, not a right, but something he has to bear. he has never been the one to pay the price directly, but in the end, he's lost every tether to his life before the ring.

it's not something that has been addressed just this once, though. ion (2006) was very clear on the matter:

ion: guardian of the universe, issue #12.

his first love, the lovers that came after that, his mother, his life as a whole on earth? the ring has taken everything and now it's too late for him to quit, else why did everyone else have to pay for it?

the ring isn't a boon. it has never been, not to him.

[greymonds-bounty-board]

[another talk to the selves, a look into a mirror in the backroom where only he rested]

“Come on, its just one friend, not like you lost someone important, you haven’t even talking a lot with him, you’re terrible friends anyways, ditch him.”

And if i dont want to? If i want to actually save him from this sunk cost fallacy for power?

“Look Kobold, i’m gonna put this down easy on you, I dont think he can be saved, he’s too far gone to be any of his former self.”

“A faceless being wearing his face, his skin, his clothes, his emotions, his life, its all him but it isnt himself at all… you should of been more active with him, you should of taken any of the damn rings before he could take the 3 he did, what would that other bounty hunter say about your tremendous failure huh?”

“Oi oi, lay off the poor kid, shit happens, we didn’t know anything was wrong, last we knew he was making a costume idea.”

“This sure is one HELL of a costume idea then huh? Make himself an angel, give himself the pain he doesnt want, all so he can dress up cleanly for Halloween.”

[the two voices began to bicker on and on, slowly getting tuned out]

With them too busy….

“Look you may still hate me but I’m still helping, we can save him, we just need those damn rings off, keep going at him and eventually he’ll slip up, he’ll make a mistake, maybe we’ll have to use regular blades or ones ment to actually hurt an angel, but we’ll do it, even if you die, you’ll get back up to finish the job.”

…. A plans a plan then, for once, i go with you as lead stead of backup.

[he took out his Khopesh, bashing it into the mirror to break it, quickly putting it away before making it seem like he had tripped into it]

[mx-lamour]

Folks, I just have some crippling feelings about Strahd and Alek.

I read that fleeting moment in Lord of the Necropolis when Alek remembers sparring and embracing and laughing with Strahd, and I just...

In I, Strahd: The Memoirs of a Vampire, they make reference together about Strahd's friends "such as he has", implying that he doesn't really have any, and like... that's intentional, right? Alek is most absolutely Strahd's best friend. They are so comfortable with each other... such as they can be. Strahd is still a lord and a general, and Alek occupies a station beneath him. There's a weird professional barrier there, which Strahd seems to enforce more than Alek does (as is his right or his duty).

And I just wonder... is Strahd afraid? You know, is this a cautious maneuver? So that he doesn't lose his head. Does he distance himself so that, if anything were to happen to Alek, he imagines it would be less devastating? They're engaged in war. Their lives are always forfeit.

But was it also this frame of mind that made him at all willing or susceptible to the suggestion that he needed to kill Alek? This little shield in his mind which kept Alek at arm's length, so he wouldn't be so aggrieved if something happened to him. Was it that gap which allowed "Death" to seep in and cause Strahd to perpetrate Alek's demise, himself?

And still, it hurt. Of course it would. When the suggestion was made, of all he had to do, with the horrible feeling that he had no other choice, Strahd's drawn and downtrodden face in the window broke Alek's heart. This was a detail unaccounted for. If Alek hadn't scraped his scabard on the wall, and Strahd hadn't heard it, would they have had another chance?

Because Strahd had doubts. Even when he approached Sergei, he still knew some part of him felt love for his brother. He almost didn't do it. He might have backed out.

But then Sergei said, "I wish you had someone like Tatyana." I wish you would let someone love you. I wish you had this kind of relationship, which feels so easy and natural and bright.

After Alek was dead. After Strahd had already lost his own best friend.

And it was his own hand which had done the deed. And he needed someone like Tatyana now. Now, more than ever. Why not keep going? What other choice was there? How could Strahd bear to stop now? A sunk-cost fallacy. He could, and would, and must kill his brother, too.

It could not be helped.

. . .

But, cleric that I am, I tell you it could. It could have been helped. I hate it, every time, when Strahd says that kind of thing. It punches me in the gut. You have to allow help. You have to seek it out.

Keep your friends close. So fucking close.

Despair will fill the cracks like water, and will weather you away. The holes may grow deeper. And wherever you do not allow a light to fill them, the darkness may find opportunity instead.

And it will delight in your suffering.

[thecarnivorousmuffinmeta]

Would any of the non Bella cullens pull a And then there were none?

And Then There Were None, a fic by me and @therealvinelle where Bella decides to murder everyone.

No.

Even for Bella, this required very specific circumstances to occur. There had to be a fight with the Cullens beforehand where they disagree on a very key issue (Jacob), then Jacob died under mysterious circumstances right after this confrontation, and then Edward said a mean thing about Jacob and we were off to the races.

It's not going to be anyone's gut instinct or even in the line of things they'd consider.

But even for the Cullens who are more likely to do it than others, I just don't see it.

Alice

She'd do it if she saw that all other possible futures are worse. However, I don't think she'd ever see a 'worse' future. She would lose everything. Her way of life, her family, her diet, everything that makes Alice, Alice, and that she cherishes in this world would be lost.

I don't think for her there's a future worse than that.

Now, she could end up on an awful path where she feels forced into killing one at a time, believing that surely this one sacrifice will be the only thing required (as she only sees one decision ahead), but I imagine she'd surrender and realize the sunk fallacy cost sooner rather than later.

She might get through one or two but certainly not the entire family.

The closest Alice has come to this was when she sent Bella to Volterra to save Edward (nearly getting Bella killed/kidnapped if not herself and Edward as well) and Breaking Dawn where she and Jasper leave and conveniently find Nahuel but might be tempted into not showing back up had they not found him, and again, there she had Jasper at least.

But yes, if anything it'd be a sacrifice, and probably not by Alice's own hand so much as setting up circumstances such that it will occur when it needn't necessarily happen.

Bella

Yes! Under the right circumstances.

Carlisle

No.

Carlisle's not an extreme pacifist, he aided Rosalie's murder of her rapists, he was part of the party responsible for killing James, he went to war with the newborn army where they did murder all but Bree but time and again, we see he doesn't kill if he feels he doesn't have to.

More, this is his family.

If left no other choice/someone has gone completely mad and cannot be reasoned with, then he might act, but I can also just see him leaving.

And it certainly wouldn't be the entire family.

Edward

Surprisingly, no.

Edward is too attached to his family. He's capable of this kind of madness, to be sure, but so much of his identity is wrapped up in his family.

Even the ones he doesn't like, like Rosalie and Jasper, he considers an integral part of the family unit.

Without significant prompting he could not on his own set out to murder each of them. He might do away with Jasper, if he was driven to it, Rosalie as well could die, and maybe even Alice depending if he feels particularly betrayed by her, Carlisle if shit got very real and he believes it is a mercy, Bella too is not safe and Renesmee certainly isn't, but I just don't see him ever doing this to Esme.

Even if he thinks they've all been brainwashed by the Volturi I think he'd try to deprogram them before giving up on them and putting them out of their misery.

Emmett

No.

Look, Emmett's used to hanging around highstrung crazy people, he hangs out and says "treat yo self" and tries to wait for the crazy to blow over.

He tries to tell himself that it usually all works out.

Usually.

Esme

No.

The family is the heart of who Esme is, a part of her identity perhaps even more than it is for Edward. She loves them dearly and unconditionally, and there is very little any one of them could do that could earn her distaste and even then, I doubt she could ever truly hate them for it.

She would never consider killing a single member of the family for any reason.

Jasper

No.

The Cullens are pacifists and weak off the diet. More, if Alice leaves them, then they have little to no way of finding her. Alice is what Jasper cares about above all others and if threatened, he and Alice will simply leave.

We see this in canon, even, as when Jasper and Alice leave in Breaking Dawn they choose to leave rather than murder Renesmee and eliminate the immortal child/reason for the Volturi's coming.

Murdering Renesmee was an option, Jasper didn't take it.

Renesmee

No.

Granted, we know very little about Renesmee, but we do know she's much weaker than the others which automatically puts her at a disadvantage. More, if she does set out to get revenge, then at the end of the day she will have nothing for all that I believe some of her guardians fall on the side of 'oblivious' more than 'malicious'.

Far more likely that someone else (Bella) kills off all the family and Renesmee just stands there asking, "Porque?"

Rosalie

No.

She loves her family far too much and is too levelheaded. Some members, she may conclude do something beyond the pale in certain circumstances, but it will certainly not be all the Cullens.

[notthestarwar]

Thinking about this one tonight

I do think that Jango's whole thing is grief tbh. The kind of grief that makes you forget who you are and forget that you are a person with choices. I don't think it looks like grief, I think it looks like fury, but I do think that the grief is what underlys it all. I think that the grief is fueling the violence and the anger and all of it.

I don't think you can seperate his character, his choices, from the fact that he lost everyone he loved multiple times. And he never got a chance to process any of it, I mean, he was so young and then he was fighting a war and then he was leader of his people and then he was imprisoned. Its all just, running to catch up.

I think that ultimately he lost himself to that grief, to the anger it fueled, I reckon in the end he was someone he didn't particularly like and once that happened, he needed to keep lying to himself, telling himself he was right, that he had no choice and in doing so he only lost himself further. And his whole running from reality thing, that's egged on by the fact that if he faces reality, faces what he's done, he'll also have to confront this great shadow of grief that's been dogging his steps since he was a child

I think that in his head, he was serving the people he'd lost. That he was in debt to them, after failing to save them and surviving in his stead, so now he needed to pay them back in the only way He could. Which is to live for them. To live to see them avenged. Though of course, none of them would have ever wanted this, but he can't ask them, because they are gone. They are truly lost to him. It's about doing the only thing he can for them, which really isn't about them at all. It's about feeling like he's doing something for them. About feeling like they are still close enough to him that he can do anything for them.

The grief isn't an excuse of course. He became someone terrible. He refused to face it and lost himself to denial. He let himself be eaten alive by a sunk cost fallacy. He doomed himself and refused to take any of the outs avaliable to him. He could have turned around and done better at any point, but he didn't, he didn't try to and so, everyone around him paid for that. He destroyed himself, and he hurt Boba badly, in spite of his love for him. He forgot how to love and he didn't try to remember, he just let himself be controlled by this fear he could never admit to. By a grief he could never let go of. Jango is defined by all that he isn't, all that he lost. So yeah. The grief was there, and he was worse for it.