#and he betrays him For flint and madi

[naivety]

the thing about silver is that he does not give a shit about other people until flint and then madi convince him to first through the crew and then through a wider liberation movement. they convinced him there was some good to be found in connecting with people and something to fight for, and Then. And Then!!! they ask him to sacrifice this very same newfound connection to these people for the greater good!!! and it Kills him but he does it because more than they've convinced him to love People, they've convinced him to love Them, and that maybe even he, John Silver, who isn't even real btw, can be loved By them, so he does it, but it fractures him and he can't pick up the pieces as fast as they shatter and it all falls apart so so quickly in his hands because it was all built on conditional trust and he Could not commit to it in the end, a house of cards built on. sand.

[hauntingblue]

I don't know what to say... everyone got a happy ending except the people who actually wanted a real revolution and had a cause for it... but it's not like we had much of their opinions on this I guess... also no final lez sex scene... tragic

[ravelqueen]

The reason i love the ending of Black Sails (and why i hate like 80% of the discourse around it incidentally) is that no one is right! No one is wrong! They all make the most logical decisions based on who they are and John most of all.

The way I saw John apologists bending over backwards trying to frame it as an OOC decision because John wouldn't do that he loves Flint! at the same time John haters where feeling vindicated bc see he was a dick who only cares about himself and both sides making me claw at my face because the love was the point.

John would have not betrayed Flint if he didn't love him (and Madi)! Because then he wouldn't have cared if they died. But he does! He does so much in a way that is probably fully new to him and scary and it makes him act impulsively in a way he never did before (because as much as his actions often seem lackadaisical, he's a calculating mofo).

So he loves them.

He also, from the very first moments we meet him, has the biggest survival instinct of anyone. He doesn't care about principle or honour or cause he cares about survival.

He's managed to work for this cause and he's applied himself and i think at the moment of the story the Betrayal happens he's even really on board, but a tiger cannot change his stripes and so John Silver cannot change that his fundamental motivator is survival.

And because he loves Flint he wants him to survive more than he wants the cause to win only there he comes into conflict with the fact that Flint's main motivator is the Cause. He and Madi are creatures of principle of "The Cause Is The Cause Because It Is Worth Dying For".

So the confrontation in the forest is exactly this: Flint following his main motivator of the Cause before anything, because that is what he lives for and John just needing him to live, because you can't care about anything when you're dead.

And so it's tragic and heart wrenching because if John hadn't learned to love so well, so deeply, so earnestly throughout the story he would have let Flint go and continue to fight, but he did and he does so and he couldn't.

[johnsilvers]

the way flint’s life is just a chain of arriving at a destination only to be met with disappointment and/or devastation. arriving in nassau for the first time still as a naval officer and finding that the plans he had for it are ruined because the governor’s family had been killed. coming back to the hamiltons’ house after being expelled from the navy only to find out thomas is already gone. arriving at division bay and the urca is not there. arriving back in nassau and finding vane’s in the fort. arriving in charlestown and loosing not only miranda and the plan to save nassau but also loosing himself as ‘mcgraw’. arriving back in nassau after the alliance with the slaves only to find the men had accepted the pardons. woodes rogers waiting for him and repeating thomas’ name time after time after time. arriving in nassau with his fleet only to lose two ships and silver. arriving at miranda’s house and seeing it desecrated by billy’s men. the one time this pattern is broken is when he arrives on the beach near the wrecks and finds silver alive. but then they meet with madi and the look on flint’s face as he watches her and silver kiss tells you everything you need to know. coming back to miranda’s house (again) and finding eleanor and madi dead. finding out madi’s alive and following rogers’ ship only to be betrayed by silver. arriving at skeleton island and. well.

[queerofthedagger]

slowly parsing through all my feelings and thoughts about the ending and it's like. silver can accuse flint of waging his war out of rage and because he has nothing to lose, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. in fact it's actually so wild how flint, ultimately, is one of the only characters who keeps hold up such an unflinching, stubborn, white-knuckled hope. that there can be a better world and that it is worth fighting for. it's the one thing, no matter how much silver has become (like) him that he never understood, neither from flint nor from madi, who is one if not the only other character this applies to as well, although it's obviously different for her.

and then just. how flint got it from thomas and miranda, the two people silver keeps comparing himself to while not getting that yes, their loss made flint the way he is, but their love and loving them made him who he is just as much. "I don't think he would want me to." and silver doesn't get it. he loves them both but he entirely fails to understand them. at his core he is still selfish, it just means that now, it manifests in not wanting to lose them - madi especially - to this war, and so he will betray her/them if that means he doesn't have to see her/them dead (it's obviously a bit more complicated with flint, but even if he did kill him, he would probably twist it in his head as a kind of 'saving,' babygirl be delustional enough). he got so much from flint, except for the most important part, the one thing that kept flint afloat for all this time. something something hope is an action, it's bruised knuckles and bared teeth and keeping going despite despite despite. god.

[corvuserpens]

What really, truly hurts me and actually makes me the most angry at Silver for prematurely foiling the war before it could really get started (apart from betraying Madi and Flint and you know... *gestures to ALL of it*) is that he spent an entire episode having a crisis around whether he should betray Flint or Billy, then irreparably damaged his friendship with Billy to elevate Flint and put him a the position where he had the best chance of succeeding in his plans for the war, and by extension, for Madi's mission to liberate her people to succeed, only for all of it to end so abruptly and unfairly out of little more than a selfish whim.

Like... Goddamn. Silver destroyed every positive relationship he ever had, set Billy up to become a traitor and a spiteful shadow of himself (not that I don't hold him accountable for his own choices, I ABSOLUTELY DO, again he deserved his fate in the show AND the book), and he single-handedly made sure the oppressive slavery system would endure for at least another couple of centuries, and in the end... *waves my hands around*

Talk about "this will all have been for nothing" indeed.

[sparrowsfallingfromthesky]

just a fun (🫠) little detail I just latched onto is how this curly design chandelier thing is on a table beside Silver in this scene where he's talking to Max and learns about the Oglethorpe plantation thus planting a seed of an idea of how he might go about saving/betraying Flint (and Madi by extension)

and then there's this similar fixture beside him (but elevated) in this scene where he's talking to Billy and increasingly having doubts

and then there's this (a little less spirally maybe but similar and. pointing at Flint.) when things are really falling apart

and THEN. there's this shirt of Madi's that she wears in the scenes where she has to process what he's done

[hybbat]

I feel like there's something to be examined about Black Sail's men and how comfortable the women are around each of them. The setting is not kind to women implicitely and explicitely, such as the very gendered hatred the pirates direct at Eleanor or the change in taunts Anne gets compared to the rest of the crew.

I think it also speaks to Eleanor's character of how she always needs enemies and struggles that she picks Vane and Rogers as her lovers, the two men in the main cast that all the women in the show are least comfortable around and who are least sympathetic to them. There's probably also something there about her attempts to take up a man's role in their society and her relationship to Max in the first season, paying for Max, betraying her, and being blamed for the violence enacted on her.

Flint gets along with women in a very distant way, he has a very fatherly sorta friendship with Eleanor, and him and Madi are comrades. He is in a relationship with Miranda but even when they're together it's more like friends who share a mutual love for Thomas and his ideals. Either way they're comfortable around him and he's never quite fully enemies with any of them even when on opposing sides. If women like Eleanor feel the need to puff up their chest around him it's only because he has that effect on everyone. But it is interesting that all the men fear him and feel he doesn't truly care about them and the women never quite do.

And then there's Jack "I support women's wrongs" Rackham. One of the girls. A queerness magnet. The fact that he is straight is one of life's greatest enigmas. Feminist icon, really.

[reneewalkersknives]

about your tags, i havent watched black sails but im nosy, how does flint end up living?

Hi, that’s a loaded question as whether he DOES actually live is up for debate. Basically a famously unreliable narrator, storyteller and liar, John Silver tells a “nice” story abt how he betrayed him but didn’t kill him and in fact reunited him with his “dead” lover in an English prison/labour camp. Problem with this happy ending is that flint’s character (and a lot of the story as a whole really) is centered around fighting against English rule. Flint is a radical who dedicated his life to harming and overthrowing the empire/ colonial rule, as he was branded a “monster” and betrayed by his father figure (an English navy man) for being gay and in a relationship with his “dead” lover.

He was exiled for that crime which then led to him becoming a pirate to seek revenge which eventually leads to him becoming a radical figure and connecting with other radicals. The last we’re 100% sure we see of flint is Silver betraying him and pointing a gun at him. Silver tells Madi,the woman he loves and another radical leader whom he betrayed that flint got a happy ending at the prison camp and his lover (who has been firmly dead since years before the show even took started) was miraculously alive.

Personally I like to believe that Silver just killed Flint (as fucked up as it sounds, I know) bc I believe flint living out the rest of his life betrayed, trapped under English rule and punishment is a much bigger tragedy than his death would be and I think flint would be happier to be dead than alive in a labour camp. It sounds bad I know but when u watch the show he is very passionate in his hatred for England, his refusal to apologise or be pardoned by them, his determination to overthrow them and get revenge and I don’t think even getting his dead lover back could ever change that. (Probably the Irish in me speaking too lol)

Anyways one of the biggest themes of the show is storytelling, lying and performing to create certain narratives and mythos. In the final episode of show one of the main characters (whom is obsessed w creating his own legacy) states “a story is true, a story is untrue, as time extends it matters less and less. The stories we want to believe, those are the ones that survive” which is basically confirmation that both interpretations of flint’s ending are valid and it allows you to choose your personal favourite:)

Sorry this was so long winded lol I just have a LOT of black sails thoughts

[toseehowthestoryends]

We see a lot of meta about what Silver thought in the ending of Black Sails, but not nearly as much about how James Flint reacted to that betrayal.

The ending is presented to the audience with Silver's narration, but it tells us a lot.

He disbelieved me. He continued to resist. And corralling him took great effort.

Eventually, Silver tells us that Flint's resistance diminished. He doesn't tell us what "corralling him" required (though I think we can imagine it required either shooting him non-fatally or physically subduing him via use of violence), just that he doesn't know why. He also says "Perhaps he'd finally reached the limits of his physical ability to fight," which certainly indicates something must have been done to stop Flint from fighting Silver and his men.

So. So far, we have the man who Flint trusted above all - and who he kept his promise to save Madi to AND THEN shot Dooley to protect - betraying. First, in the forest, Silver reveals that he's betraying Flint (and Madi) to end the war. And secondly, he's had his men subdue him in some way that is implied to include great violence.

And then we have the fact that Silver has known Thomas was at that plantation for...how long? Months, presumably. And he said nothing. Put aside the fact that Silver's actions reunite James with Thomas. That's a separate action that does not erase the betrayal.

We see throughout the series that James Flint does not trust easily. Yet in season 3, he consciously lets his walls down and lets Silver in. Throughout seasons 3/4, they are a team and Flint trusts Silver. And when everything goes to hell and Madi is taken, he promises he will get her back and he does. They take down Woodes Rogers. They win a major battle that frees Nassau.

And then his friend, his ally, his partner, tells him that not only is he betraying the war, but he is also throwing James Flint into prison (no matter how kind, it's a prison), and he has known Thomas Hamilton is alive for months, in prison, and he has not not shared this.

Am I too late to the fandom discourse? Did people dive into this screaming when the show first came out? Because I cannot get over the look of heartbreak on Flint's face during the there be dragons speech because he knows that even if Thomas is alive - and at this point for him that's a big if - he had finally dared trust someone, truly trust someone, and just had that trust savaged in the worst way. Did Silver have decent reasons? In Silver's mind, for sure. But Flint? James McGraw? Even if you discount the ending the war, betraying the cause Flint led, you can't discount Silver knowing about Thomas and saying nothing.

(And I can't discount the war. Maybe my background mirrors Flint's too much; maybe I'm too intimately acquainted with the concept of war and fighting and maybe I've led people for too long and feel that responsibility and would not thank someone who "relieved" me of it without my consent or that of those I lead. But Flint was fighting for freedom for so many. His rage had morphed into something greater, and that cause was no longer about nothing left to lose but everything to gain, and that revolution could have been everything for a part of the world that had nothing.)

[hauntingblue]

Happy memory flashbacks we are so over....

[why-do-i-like-the-bad-guys]

I just thought of a great parallel between Flint and Rogers. Both keep losing people they love or work with. Like Silver said to Flint how it was almost a pattern.

Flint’s started out with losing Hamilton — Rogers started out losing his brother (Ironically both these men are named Thomas)

- Flint ended up brutally killing the people who caused Thomas’ death as did Rogers to the entire ship that killed his brother, Thomas.

Flint loses Billy — Roger’s loses Captain Hornigold

-both were seen as replaceable

Flint loses Gates — Rogers loses Captain Chamberlain

-Flint lost his crew for a bit because of this and Rogers lost a lot of his soldiers.

Flint loses Miranda — Rogers loses Eleanor

-both of these losses were because of attempts of working with the enemy who were responsible for losing their loved ones in the beginning.

-both of these women also tried to get their men to leave the island behind and start a new life

Flint cuts ties with Billy — Rogers cuts ties with his wife, Sarah Whetstone.

-both of these had a great impact on the rate of their success because each have a following of people behind them.

(Much like Thomas Hamilton, Sarah came from a very influential family. I find it funny how both Flint and Rogers found themselves in a relationship with such people)

These men really mirror each other more than just Rogers being what Flint once was. They are almost an echo of each other, doomed to the same narrative no matter what side they’re on. Flint was famous for what people knew about him and his vicious nature while he hid his true motives and feelings, which ended up later being found out in the end and ultimately became his end. Rogers was famous for everything but his secret vicious side, which ended up being found out in the end and became his end as well.

Back to the main point: whoever gets close to these two men, ends up dead, betraying them, or both.

In the end Eleanor’s betrayal of Rogers with the cache was similar to Silver’s betrayal of Flint. Eleanor was pregnant and wanted this to end so they could start their family, dooming herself, her unborn chikd and Rogers in the process. Silver had Madi and couldn’t stand the thought of losing her so he betrayed Flint, also dooming himself, Flint and Madi in the process.

Both men were repeatedly told in the beginning that these people they let in couldn’t be trusted and that they would always do what was in their best interest in the end. But I think Flint saw a bit of Thomas in Silver and Rogers saw a bit of his brother in Eleanor. (Which is for a whole different post)

[outrageouslymoonpie]

Alright.

I have finally finished black sails. Started it in April (I know), watched one episode randomly in November (got traumatized by Randall's leg) and decided to finally watch it (after seeing a post about love and monsters) a couple of weeks ago.

Safe to say that I've got an unhealthy obsession with pirates and stories about the sea that traces back when I was like four and not so able to draw, because while watching the series i put together a bibliography of medias that is quite long.

Is this related to what I think of the series? Maybe. Maybe it puts in perspective the obsession it rekindled.

Anyway. Black sails.

Beware, there'll be spoilers sprinkled down here.

I went in totally blind, besides Flint's queerness. I'm a simple woman, i love me a historical drama about pirates with a queer protagonist.

Flint's queerness - as I read somewhere here on Tumblr - is something fundamental in his development as a character, but also as a pirate. And with him being the protagonist of the story, I also thinks it drives a lot of the actual narrative of the series. Because of him being queer, of him being in love with another man, he became a pirate. He decided to retrieve that damn treasure.

So it's a series about a queer man, but not about the homophobia he experienced or experience. The show let us imagine, let us wonder why he decided to become a pirate.

But it lets us know that Flint loved a man.

You know, Flint loves a lot. I think he's not able not to. He cares, and hurts, but ultimately he loves a lot. We see it with basically every character he interacts with (besides poor billy, which is actually really funny to me.) He loves Miranda, respects Eleanor and Vane, loves deeply and unhealthily Silver and Madi.

Something I noticed is how much love there is, throughout the whole series. It's not just about the relationships between the characters (which are vital), but also about the kind of life they're living, about the love they have for Nassau. It's the true heart of the story. The characters do things out of love.

Flint manipulates the narrative in order to obtain his gold, yes, but he also does that in order to protect and save and help those who love. England betrayed him, so he became a pirate. Miranda - his tether to the memory of Thomas - got killed because of his love for her, because of her love for him, because of their hope. Silver and Madi, oh god. In the last season that particular relationship become something Shakespearian in its tragedy, in its inherent imbalance. But it's so full of love. In their scheming, in Flint's decision to help silver save Madi, in Madi's pain at the very end of the season, in silver's smile.

(I'll elaborate more in another post, but oh boy those three broke my heart in many many pieces)

And then there's the part of the story where every one of them is a monster of some kind. In the very last episode flint's tells silver how much every one of them is a monster in someone's story and that how they tell children to be scared of the darkness, because in the darkness live the monsters. And that is the second big theme of black sails. Being a monster. Being a pirate is something awful in the eyes of the British empire, but every character in this show is a monster of some kind. Flint, queer and pirate and scheming and wrathful. Silver, manipulator, scheming and later disabled. Vane, an ex slave turned pirate. Eleanor, woman, queer and super smart. I can go on, but I thing you got the gist. (Love is also monstrous)

And the very last thing in this very long ramble: the power of stories. Throughout the show we see characters hinting about being part of a story, part of something big, about having a "reputation to maintain", a "name to live in". It's almost like they know they're fictional. I felt the power of the stories: they can shape everything. Our present, our future, our past. We can do everything with a story. And my favourite thing was Silver. John Silver, the Long John Silver, starts his story with a lie. The character who's most shaped by the damned narrative is the one who refuses till the very last to tell us his story. I don't know him. I have no idea where he came from, but I saw him shape himself in a pirate, a cook, a quartiermaster, a leader and ultimately a legend. He goes around saying lies, manipulating, telling Flint I have no story to tell I think you know everything that's to known about me.

To end this too long of a ramble: black sails changed something fundamental in the way I see pirates and in the way I experience stories and in the way I shape my very own narrative. It also broke my heart, gave me brainworms and added eight books to my tbr. I don't regret nothing, but if you have some fic rec please give it to me. I miss them.

[blacksailspolls]

🏴‍☠️🔱 BLACK SAILS EPISODE BRACKET

ROUND 2

SUMMARY

[LEFT] XV. (2.07) — The pirates prepare to take a vote on whether Flint or Hornigold should become captain, causing Flint's plans to take a halt. Billy secretly meets with Dufresne and declares his plan to gather at least ten men that oppose Flint, to capture him and surrender him to the British, so that they may all receive full pardons for their piracy. Two scouts tasked with watching the Urca gold return to report that the Spanish crew died from a tropical disease, leaving the gold unprotected. John, intercepting them, convinces them to tell Flint that the gold is now gone so that John can organize a secret expedition with Max to gather it without any issues or opposition. As part of the plan for pardons for Flint and Miranda, Eleanor betrays Vane by helping Abigail to escape.

[RIGHT] XXXVI. (4.08) — Jack and Max get ready to depart Philadelphia and return to Nassau. Jack contemplates going through with a costly plan that is the only way he believes Nassau will become economic again. Flint and Silver also return to Nassau to retrieve Madi, but argue about which of their plans is the best. Rogers puts his own plan into action as they come for Madi. Max speaks to Eleanor's grandmother Marion Guthrie about Mrs Guthrie's plan for Nassau.

[corvuserpens]

Theory for what happened between the conclusion of Black Sails and the beginning of Treasure Island: part 2

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

At Flint's death bed, Silver and Madi get to finally have a conversation with him. It hurts Madi to see him like this: the once great instigator, the most infamous pirate captain that ever sailed the seas, brought down low by age and illness. It hurts Silver, too. Regardless of all that happened, he still sees Flint as his friend; the friend he was forced to betray to save his life, and Madi's, and his own.

Still, he's glad to have had the opportunity to be with him one last time before his passing. Flint tells him he had found peace in that plantation because of him. He understood Silver, now. Having Thomas back changed everything. What sense was there in waging a war in his honor when he was no longer dead?

(He looks to Madi then, and there is regret in his tired eyes. After meeting her and her maroons, it was no longer about just Thomas. It had grown so much larger than that, and he's sorry that she didn't get to have the revolt he had promised. Maybe now he could offer her a new chance for it, if he played his cards right and luck was on a dying man's side).

It is so hard to hide his consuming rage from Silver. All that hate, old and familiar, roiling inside him. He tells Silver that he has moved on from all that happened on Skeleton Island, and that he forgives him. It sounds convincing. Perhaps to a man who knew him a little less than Silver does, it would have worked.

But Silver knows Something is not quite right. He can see the sparks of anger in Flint's eyes, that mad look on his face when he would go on a long monologue about how they were going to fight against the British empire and win. He doesn't trust Flint's words of reconciliation and forgiveness. For appearances sake, he pretends to be relieved by this last absolution, but he knows there's more to it. He is who he is, and Flint is who he is. Some things never change.

For example, Silver isn't there just to see his friend one last time before he dies. He sees an opportunity to repair his relationship with Madi, and right his biggest wrong. Obviously, he's going to ask about the cache and where Flint buried it, only to receive an infuriating answer: he doesn't remember anymore. It was so long ago and age has robbed him of so many details from memory. It's truly and well lost, now.

Silver and Madi depart from Savannah empty handed. Silver knows it's only a matter of time until she can't ignore how he hurt her anymore, and leave him as well. He hadn't felt this terrified in a long fucking time.

Enter Billy Bones, days after Silver and Madi are gone. Oh, the wicked pleasure he feels in seeing Flint lying on that bed, the clutches of death already firm on him. He should have been taken decades ago, but that devil was never easy to claim. Not even for Death itself. Even now, he fought with what little strength he had left. The desire to speed things along burns bright in Billy's corrupted heart, yet he convinces himself that this is better. Let it be a slow, agonizing death, dragged out so he can suffer. Flint deserves no less than that.

And then. AND THEN. Flint does something Billy was never expecting: he shows true, genuine remorse for everything he put Billy through. Taking Gates away from him, ignoring him, manipulating him, using him, undermining him, for being the chief architect of his corruption, for taking that sweet, caring man Billy used to be and twisting him and breaking him beyond recognition, until the result was this - a mirror of what Flint himself was when all of it began.

The best (or perhaps the worst) part of it all is that, unlike with Silver, Flint isn't pretending. Billy desperately searches for any sign of falsehood or a lie, he had become good at detecting them after putting up with Flint's shit for so long, right?

Yet he finds none. Flint apologizes for the way Billy's story turned out because the man he was before this did not deserve it, and, as a proof that he is being truthful, he produces a piece of parchment from beneath the sheets covering his soon-to-be cadaver and hands it to Billy. With shaking hands, he unfolds it.

It's a map. A map of Skeleton Island. A map leading to the exact location of the remaining treasure cache of a certain Spanish vessel that was called the L'Urca de Lima.

Flint's time is ending, it will be very soon, now. The old pirate tells his former boatswain that there is nothing he can do to make things right, except this. To give him the only thing he has left to give: his legacy.

With his dying breath, Flint tells Billy to do what he wills with that map - except let Long John Silver have it. Then, with a final shudder and eyes closed, Captain James Flint passes into legend.

[storkmuffin]

You can't be anything other than anti-John Silver if your people have ever been colonized.

(Polemic incoming. Every kind of anti-john-silver warning).

Korea didn't win our liberation from a very hated, very dehumanizing and decimation-oriented Japanese colonialism. They got nuked by white people and had to give up all their territories. But the fact that during the entirety of our occupation we had had liberationists, freedom fighters, people who threw themselves at the colonizers and stood up for freedom, that they got ordinary people to do the March 1 uprising, and other uprisings - all these individual sacrifices and mass actions created the center around which Koreans could rally and heal in the aftermath. These are essential actions. When you're stepped on you must move. Otherwise you are acquiescing to your own genocide - the end of the soul of your people.

What John Silver has done to Madi and her people is make them black people who were led by a white man into agreeing to their individual exemption from global commercial slavery of black people, without ever having launched a proper act of protest or war against slavery as a whole.

He didn't just betray Madi. He ruined her, and he ruined her community, and he launched a terrible wound at the courage and hope of millions of people just like them, in direct service to white supremacy.

And for what?

He did it so he could give his pirate criminal invalid self a wife.

So spare me your talk of his trauma and self-loathing and secret inner life, or how he's tragic or whatever. He's a villain who did historic levels of evil in canon and I think possibly the most evil consequential villain I've ever seen in any piece of entertainment. I'm repulsed by him even more than I was at the start.

It doesn't help that his idea of solution for James Flint is to incarcerate him in a concentration camp for the mentally ill, but at this point it's secondary.