#and even then Finwë made his position - Fëanor as his rightful heir - very clear

[waitingforsecretsouls]

Fëanor and succession

"High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

„Though after the rule of the Noldor was committed to him [Fingolfin] by Manwë (in place of his elder brother and father) he took the name of Finwë.“ -Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)

"He [Fëanor] claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 09: Of the Flight of the Noldor

"As he [Fëanor] said with some justice: ‘My brother’s claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?’" -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Fëanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elendë and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor

"With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

"One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor came indeed, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not, nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë: ‘While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.’" -The Silmarillion, Chapter 08: Of the Darkening of Valinor

"Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships." -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"So it came about that to Fëanor the rejection of þ became a symbol of the rejection of Míriel, and of himself, as her son, as the chief of the Noldor next to Finwë: […] So Fëanor would call himself 'Son of the þerindë', and when his sons in their chilhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwë used s for þ he answered: 'Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá – sí, if they can speak no better.'" -The Peoples of Middle – Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"To his sons Finwë gave his own name as he had done to Fëanor. This maybe was done to assert their claim to be his legitimate sons, equal in that respect to his eldest child Kurufinwë Fayanáro, but there was no intention of arousing discord among the brothers, since nothing in the judgement of the Valar in any way impaired Fëanor’s position and rights as his eldest son. Nothing indeed was ever done to impair them, except by Fëanor himself; and in spite of all that later happened his eldest son remained nearest to Finwë’s heart." -The Peoples of Middle- Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

[grundyscribbling]

There’s been a lot of great responses to my FInwë musings. (Thanks, @rvoris for suggesting something that people want to talk about!) I’m pulling several of them out here.

After a back and forth about whether or not an unstable/paranoid Fëanor might still have a decent number of followers, @rose-of-the-bright-sea​ said:

I still think elven succession makes no sense. Particularly in Aman. Finwë had every reason to suspect that he was going to live forever, and so while maybe he needed to designate an heir, it seems like he should have been prioritizing his children’s relationships as siblings. There was every reason to think that they would all be supporting HIM. Not Fëanor. I get the real world comparisons, but being immortal SHOULD have made this all very different.

Elven succession (more accurately, the lack of expectation thereof in Aman) is the main reason an unstable Fëanor still having a sizable number of followers makes no sense to me. There’s no expectation he would succeed/take power in the foreseeable future, so there's no tangible benefit to following him in any but the longest term nebulous maybe way; it’s far more likely that if you’re following him only in the hopes of reward he either sees through you and drops you, or just shrugs and takes you for granted, with no concrete reward. So presumably people in Tirion would primarily follow him on the basis of belief that he/his position is in the right.

@nimium-amatrix-ingenii-sui​ brought up an excellent point about authorial bias in this case:

Just a note on authorial bias here -- the early chapters (the Annals of Valinor material) aren't the work of Pengolodh, but of Rúmil, so the opinions of the Iathrim (likely) don't figure into this. On the whole, Rúmil seems to attempt being neutral (from a Noldorin perspective) more than Pengolodh). - Excellent analysis of Finwe's place in the picture (I think ;))!

Good point! But the opinions/biases of the Iathrim might still matter to later transmission/retelling of Rumil’s initial work. (Unless the later authors simply copied Rumil without any editing, commentary, or attempts to align his work with their overall narrative.) And it probably got easier as time went on to be more dubious about Finwë, as the farther removed you were, the easier it would be to be critical. In the First Age or early Second Age, there are people around who knew him and would likely defend him. But by the Third Age, when none of his children are alive on the Hither Shores, Galadriel is the only one of his grandchildren left standing, even his great-grandchildren are dead/sailed, and very few Noldorin exiles remain, ‘Finwë and his sons’ becomes more of an academic debate - how should Finwë have properly handled the situation? (Though I bet it still doesn’t get debated within earshot of Galadriel...)

@cycas​ said:

I’ll add to this that although Finwë favoring his eldest son is often seen as an awful thing by people who see it only in the light of domestic family dynamics, in terms of early concepts of kingship, it’s exactly what Finwë *should* have been doing. If Finwë is merely a father brokering peace among his offspring, then favoring one over the others is clearly wrong: but if we consider Finwë as a king, Fëanor is his heir. In that context, Fingolfin and Finarfin are not supposed to be equal,...

Absolutely Finwë should have made clear who was his heir! But he also should have made clear his expectations of how his heir should treat his younger brothers both in public and in private - he should have kept his house in order. This isn’t European succession, where familial relationships frequently became lethal quarrels when it came to succession/rights (and no one was particularly surprised if it did.) These are immortal elves who are at heart arguing over who gets to wear a shiny hat or badge, given that there’s nothing to establish that any of Finwë’s sons seriously expected to be king. (I suspect this is why it’s frequently seen only in light of family dynamics.)

[soothingmoonlight]

#if i have to read one more take about how “paranoid” Fëanor was #about something that actually occured as an important canonical plot point... #plus it's genuinely such an injustice to Fingolfins character to airbrush one of his most consistent traits just out of canon #if you can't admit that Fingolfin was a litttle bit of an opportunistic usurper do you even really like his character? #you'll also note that his “I will release my brother” refers to after Fëanors period of exile is served #(note the future tense in accordance with Mandos 'But after that time (exile) this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed #if others will release thee.’ #he's not saying “I forgive my brother rn don't send him into exile” #but “I'll forgive him once his exile is served”) #plus Finwë explicitly not endorsing him as regent or whatever no Finwë gets straight up usurped as well #as Melkor's “lies” said #(since I've often seen the hc that Finwë gave Fingolfin his blessings to rule in Tirion #as if that wouldn't completely invalidate his leverage on the Valar to rescind Fëanor's exile #and any credibility in showing Fëanor his support by joining him at Formenos) #the succession was in no way shape or form in question or open to debate until the Valar got involved #and even then Finwë made his position - Fëanor as his rightful heir - very clear

Don't hide your beautiful thoughts in the tags @waitingforsecretsouls

Fëanor and succession

"High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

„Though after the rule of the Noldor was committed to him [Fingolfin] by Manwë (in place of his elder brother and father) he took the name of Finwë.“ -Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)

"He [Fëanor] claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 09: Of the Flight of the Noldor

"As he [Fëanor] said with some justice: ‘My brother’s claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?’" -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Fëanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elendë and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor

"With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

"One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor came indeed, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not, nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë: ‘While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.’" -The Silmarillion, Chapter 08: Of the Darkening of Valinor

"Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships." -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"So it came about that to Fëanor the rejection of þ became a symbol of the rejection of Míriel, and of himself, as her son, as the chief of the Noldor next to Finwë: […] So Fëanor would call himself 'Son of the þerindë', and when his sons in their chilhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwë used s for þ he answered: 'Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá – sí, if they can speak no better.'" -The Peoples of Middle – Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"To his sons Finwë gave his own name as he had done to Fëanor. This maybe was done to assert their claim to be his legitimate sons, equal in that respect to his eldest child Kurufinwë Fayanáro, but there was no intention of arousing discord among the brothers, since nothing in the judgement of the Valar in any way impaired Fëanor’s position and rights as his eldest son. Nothing indeed was ever done to impair them, except by Fëanor himself; and in spite of all that later happened his eldest son remained nearest to Finwë’s heart." -The Peoples of Middle- Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor