#and breeders still refuse to outcross or make any changes. and at that point its like ok well you all suck then.

[kangals]

thank you for such a thorough answer to my question about COI!! i don’t know anything at all about dog breeding, all of mine have come off the streets lol. it is BONKERS to me that the breed average for collies is 40%. so does that mean that most of the collies i see out in the world are kind of related? also i know you said w dobermans there’s not really any way to breed away from it, is it the same with collies? are breeders working to move that average % down?

thank you for sending me an ask that tickled the 'adhd special interests' section of my brain lmao

so are all collies related - yes and no. yes, in the sense that they all descend from the same ancestors and share genetics. no, in the sense that on paper they're not related. for example: stellina comes from a long-time breeder of show dogs on the US east coast. @as-old-roads audrey (my beloved) was a rehome who originally came from a midwest puppy mill. our dogs do not have any shared members of the family tree for several generations back. they're, at best, extremely distant cousins. and when we compared their DNA test results... they were 50% genetic matches for each other. that's not from being actual relatives - that's just because the collie gene pool is small enough that if you take a random scoop, you overlap with someone else 🤷

is there a way to breed away from high COI - not really, which is the tricky part of it. COI will always accumulate over time, meaning that as long as no new blood is introduced, each generation will have higher COI than the last. the way to combat this is A) start with a very large population of founding dogs (obv not an option for collies anymore, as the breed was developed in the 1800s); B) allow new blood through an "open studbook" (anyone with a collie-ish dog can breed their dog and have the offspring registered as collies if it's determined they look enough like a pure collie); or C) dedicated outcross programs (specifically seeking out unrelated collie-type dogs to cross to pure collies and then breeding those offspring back to pure collies to try and add more diversity without sacrificing the breed type)

the first option (large founding population) isn't viable anymore - we know that the original collies were developed from the native working farm dogs in whats now the UK, and then people said 'hey these dogs are pretty' and started breeding them specifically for bench/show moreso than herding, which is what makes the collies such a (IMO) lovely blend of herding and companion/family dog. we know other dogs were crossed in during development, but we don't have records of what: we've heard rumors that borzoi were added, and gordon setter, among others, but we can't say for sure. but regardless, this ship has sailed.

the second two options - the open studbook and outcross problems - are workable in theory, however they're not magic fix-alls. while COI/diversity is very important, it's also not the end-all be-all to health (as evidence by the fact that collies as a breed are doing really good health-wise). however, the biggest positive is also the biggest negative: you're diluting what's already in the gene pool. collies have high COI, but they also have very unique temperaments - they're very gentle, polite, exceptional with children, watchful but non-aggressive, intelligent, driven but not obsessive. i love the collie personality - that's what makes them collies, and not just random fluffy herding dogs. the idea of bringing in non-collies to the studbooks and creating generations of dogs that didn't have that same unique collie personality is so, so sad for me to think about. and yes in theory you can try and breed back to the traits you like, but what if you've now introduced, say, resource guarding into the gene pool? or fearfulness? or a health issue like DCM? there's such a fine line as to what makes a breed a breed, and it is very easy to deviate from that, even accidentally.

are breeders working to move the COI down - 😬 ymmv but most of the breeders i've talked to have a very "well it's not a problem so i'm not concerned" type of thinking about it. which, again, yeah the dogs are healthy now, but i think it shows a serious lack of foresight to not be concerned. but, these high COI show dogs are producing very consistent puppies who are doing consistently well at shows, so that's whats being bred. and that means that the breeders who are passionate about breeding and showing The Collie, and the breeders who want to do outcrosses and open studbooks, tend to have very, very little overlap. i've not seen any outcross programs that are worth following IMO (and i don't consider "old time scotch collie" to be outcross programs, as those OTSC dogs are supposed to be significantly different. if you're not aiming to keep your dogs part of the original breed, then it's not an outcross, it's a different breed).

i would love to see collie breeders and the collie breed club actually work together and focus on specific, dedicated outcross projects. or a formal procedure for allowing new blood into the studbooks. but unless something happens to really light a fire under their asses, i doubt it'll happen. so for now i'll stick with my worryingly-high COI dogs, with the temperaments and health that i love, and hope that the breed manages to defy the odds and stay healthy.