#and as I've said before; loki is more likely to sacrifice himself for frigga than the other way around

[lokiinmediasideblog]

It's probably because the Blood Brothers comic is imprinted on me, but I have trouble viewing Loki as Frigga's spoiled rotten favorite. And not to mention the JiM stuff with the All-Mother. Plus, I don't think what we see within the MCU establishes the dynamic perceived by the majority.

[tyrannuspitch]

you know what. the fact that odin has to go into the odinsleep (effectively a coma in which he - and all of asgard - is incredibly vulnerable) at regular internals all throughout thor and loki's childhood is a really underappreciated bit of backstory!

like... thor and loki have effectively grown up with a chronically (well. episodically, but consistently) ill parent. that's going to have a profound effect on them. it's not something i've experienced myself, so i'm just guessing, really, but some thoughts on what those effects might be...?

a sense of extreme instability in their attachment to odin, especially when they're very young. no wonder they both have abandonment issues!

before they're old enough to understand, they're going to experience it as: father is here but he is refusing to engage with us, and no-one is sure when he will again. have i done something wrong? am i just not important enough? this might be exacerbated by people trying to tell them that it's "meant to happen", "for a higher purpose", "under control", etc.

once they ARE old enough to understand, they will naturally see it as very dangerous and frightening. their father is the universe's miraculous, invulnerable protector... until he isn't. what if it comes on unexpectedly, somewhere dangerous, somewhere no-one can find him? what if a war breaks out? what if he never wakes up?

the odinsleep is linked to odin's powers and odin's responsibilities to the kingdom. he exerts himself until he falls into a coma. For Them. it's a kind of martyrdom, and it must induce a lot of survivor's guilt in his family.

there's a lot of cognitive dissonance around vulnerability, especially odin's vulnerability. the royal family must always present a strong and united front to the world, and questioning or undermining odin, even in private, can have severe repercussions. and yet odin regularly enters health crises that they can't not respond to. yet more unprocessed and uncommunicated emotions in the house of odin.

the odinsleep seems to be the brink of death, so in a way, odin dies over and over - and his family brace themselves for grief over and over. it must make it harder to admit any flaw in him, much less the vast extent of his abuse, when they're constantly reminded of what the loss would be like.

but at the same time... there might be some peace in his absence. relief at the withdrawal of a tyrant. which will only cause further guilt and anxiety in them all, and maybe lead to them policing each other harder to compensate...

every time odin goes into the odinsleep, someone else has to rule. at first, this will be frigga - which means, when they were young, thor and loki would lose most of their contact with both parents at regular intervals. which might contribute to their closeness with each other, as the only stable connection. and later on, it would probably mean thor had to be regent (to the realm at its most vulnerable!) - so he would lose a parent figure and very suddenly have to grow up (and possibly leave loki behind)...

it's not 100% clear... but it seems likely that the odinsleep is something the next king will eventually inherit. thor's future promises untold power and untold sacrifice, and always has. a king is powerful, and a king is exposed. this complicates thor and loki's power struggle in a really interesting way! it's not just: let me be in charge. it's also: let me take the danger, i know how to handle it better than you...

hmmm. there is probably much more to be said here but these are. some initial thoughts

[yourfinalbow]

hi lol this is totally random but based on a harry potter post you just reblogged and you can completely ignore me if you want, but do you think snape deserved better, or are you a quote unquote "snape apologist"? I'm genuinely curious cuz I've come across a lot of different opinions on severus. Again, feel free to ignore :)

This ended up way longer than it needed to be, and I apologize for that lmao.

Hi! Hmmm I have many mixed opinions on this. First we have to talk about which Snape. Book!Snape is actually kind of an asshole, and not in the fun way. (Way more than I remembered.) But but but Alan Rickman!Snape I like a lot.

And no I'm not mentioning Snape from TCC. That was not Snape and that world was not Harry Potter.

Snape is an interesting character because of how flawed and layered he is.

(Putting a cut because it's so long, and tw for non-detailed mentions/reference to abuse, as well as both trauma and death.)

He wasn't born in a very good household, which I can definitely see as being a reason for why he is who he is. (A reason, not an excuse. Those are two extremely different things.) You look at Sirius, who also came from a horrible household, yet he managed to dig himself out of the mud and make his own path for himself. (Though I have many angsty headcanons for the thoughts he has and being afraid of what he will do and in turn his own mind. WolfStar solidarity. Neither one of them know what they are truly capable of, and both are completely afraid to find out.

Ahem sorry I got a little distracted there.

During the Marauder's era, Snape wasn't a good person in general, but he tried to be nice to Lily. (One of the only exceptions he made.) That being said, (sorry, going on a tangent again), it does not excuse what the Marauders did. As much as they are, in my humble opinion, JK's greatest creation, they should be held accountable for both the prank, and dangling Snape upside down. (Though Remus does make a few good points in their defense later, it's still not an excuse.) Two wrongs never make a right.

Snape doesn't deny Lily's claims at him wanting to join a supremacy group, nor does he say he isn't friends with Death Eaters.

It's clear through the flashbacks we're given that Snape is apathetic in the face of innocent people dying, but once again Lily is the exception.

Dumbledore defends Snape by saying it wasn't his fault that Harry's parents are dead. I actually semi-agree with this. On one hand, he was directly at fault, but on the other hand he had no way of knowing. As a severe Loki apologist, I do not blame Loki for Frigga's death. He may have led the dark elves to her, but he didn't know it was her she was sending them to. That's the comparison I make in my mind, and so I don't completely blame him like other people do. (One could also make the argument that Sirius is to blame. Sirius, who is 100% my favorite character in the entire franchise, gave the secret keeper job to Peter, thinking it would be safer with him. However, he had no ill will or malicious intentions towards Lily, James, and Harry, so I don't blame him.)

All that being said, Snape not only would have been fine with random people dying, he also didn't care whether or not James and Harry lived.

For context:

(Dumbledore is speaking, right after Snape comes to him for help.)

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child?" They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

He has a strange relationship with Lily. He obviously loves her, but not enough to want to stop Voldemort from killing the two things that bring her the most amount of happiness. It's clear he doesn't care about anyone except for Lily. Which on some level, I can understand why. When people have traumatic childhoods, they tend to hold on to a person that was there for them. Sometimes it can be the hands of the person who caused them pain in the first place, but other times it is another person who was there for him. He holds Lily's opinions of himself higher than anybody else, and he holds Lily above anybody else, and I think this can be attributed to some sort of trauma response, which is why his love for her is so unusual. That doesn't mean I think he should be fine with killing innocent people.

On the topic of trauma, I think joining the Death Eaters was another response to this, as well as a result of what kind of family he had.

Similar to both Harry and Voldemort, Snape much preferred Hogwarts to where he lived, and such the castle became his home more than his house ever was.

The Death Eaters could offer him something he had never been offered before. He belonged to something. In his own, twisted, traumatic mindset, he might have even almost seen the Death Eaters as a family. Not consciously of course, but there was definitely a feeling of belonging they gave him.

And there's something to be said about the fact that many serial killers in real life come from an abusive family. I don't pretend to understand the minds of someone who can do something so vile, but I have watched enough Criminal Minds episodes to know what they long for is control.

So being apart of this supremacy group, even though he was a half-blood himself and undoubtedly didn't entirely share Voldermort's racist beliefs, gave him both control and something he belonged to.

It's not an excuse, but it's a reason.

Alternatively, you can look at it through a quote from the most recent episode of Loki.

"It's part of the illusion. It's a cruel, elaborate trick conjured by the weak to inspire fear."

So it's also possible that when he was a kid, he thought being a villain was the only way to prevent others from being one to him.

Ok sorry, back on the chronological track.

So he agrees to change sides and work with Dumbledore. (Who must see just how distraught Snape was over Lily's death, to trust him immediately.)

Snape spends most of Harry's time at Hogwarts humiliating his own students. He particularly calls out Harry and his friends a lot, but I can definitely see this being a defence mechanism. He assumes Harry is James and reverts back to what we talked about earlier. (Becoming the villain so nobody else has a chance.)

But but but, he does a lot of good throughout the books. Snape mutters the countercurse, saving Harry from Quirrell during the Quidditch match. He then actually referees at the next match, preventing anything from happening altogether.

In retrospective, we see that he spends most of the first book helping Dumbledore by protecting the stone, and helping Lily by protecting Harry.

Now I could go through and list the goods and the bads of Snape throughout the entire series, but I have neither the time nor the patience, and I think you get the point.

(Except I would like the mention that Snape becomes a double agent for Dumbledore in book four, and risks his life every single day by constantly betraying Voldermort, and never once does he use this as a way to double cross Dumbledore. This was actually probably really hard on him. You can assume that having to pretend to be a Death Eater means he had to do some despicable things just so he didn't blow his cover. If he really has changed by this time, which I would like to think he has, is a lot of added guilt to live with.)

(I would also mention that he tried to save Sirius in book five, but... *falls on floor dramatically* I don't want to think about it.)

Severus Snape's time comes to the end in book seven. At the hands of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, his death is a valiant act of sacrifice. Protecting the living and defending the honour of the fallen.

So, he has done a lot of bad in his lifetime, but by the time we as readers get to know him, his fundamental set of beliefs have begun to change. Through the eyes of what started as an eleven year old boy, you can definitely see that even after this he wasn't necessarily a good person.

And that's because his good is behind the scenes. He's good on a larger scale. He's chosen the light over darkness, but in his everyday life he's still the scared, traumatized little kid he's always been.

And him being this way has reasons, but these reasons are not excuses.

Sorry anon, this kind of turned into a long winded review of the entire character. I know that's not really what you asked, so I'll sum it up in a final few sentences sentence.

Yes. I wish Snape had gotten to live. Not because I'm necessarily a "Snape apologist", but because I find his character interesting, and seeing his reaction to his sacrifice could have been a really good read. Also Harry coming up and thanking him would have been really touching, and as a cherry on top maybe we could have gotten to read Harry apologizing for his father. Maybe even Snape sharing memories of Lily?! (Sorry that might have gotten a little to fanfic-y.)

That being said, his death being a final sacrifice towards the good of everyone, and a final testimony to his change of heart, was -- and I'll give JK credit just this once -- good storytelling, and a good way to end it.

Also I like movie!Snape because fuck yeah he's just so awesome.

If anyone has anything to add/take away, or they just want to discuss the wonder that was Alan Rickman, let me know! (Ask/Comment/Reblog/Etc.)

[abby118]

Well said.

'Did Frigga not think to delve a bit more into why Loki acted the way he did?'

To paraphrase Craig Kyle from the TDW concept book's commentary, Frigga puts herself in the position of the glue of that family. From my own observation, that often means she does defend the person who is not currently present to maintain an illusion of peace in that family. She might have doubted Odin and questioned his decisions but she wouldn't speak up, especially not with others present. After the "trial" took place, she had little means of finding out about Loki's motivation unless she'd ask Odin (which she wouldn't + she knew he didn't know because he sentenced Loki without a proper trial) or ask Loki (about whom she knew would definitely not tell her). So she left it be and probably hoped Odin would lessen Loki's sentence as years went on or simply tried to bury her grief in silence, finding comfort in Thor's success.

'Frigga on the other hand, I'm not so sure how powerful her love for Loki would be when it's a choice between him and anything that represents the proper order when it comes to the throne of Asgard.'

You hit the nail on the head with that one because that's what's been shown. She defends him but only within what is still considered acceptable by Asgard and its laws which are basically just Odin's word. After all, she did choose to keep the family's secret because it was Odin's great plan for the future of Asgard, even if deep down, she must have known it was hurting Loki/might hurt him once he'd found out.

'and we know that despite the fact she loves Loki as her own son, she does occasionally favour Thor.'

I've got a feeling this might have been Odin's influence. The crown prince, and someone presented as the kingdom's future and their pride, would be favoured regardless of whom she favoured most of the time.

'I also think that there's an element of Frigga treating Loki like he's the wise-head, the one who can handle himself better. .... I feel a bit like if Loki was in a life threatening situation Frigga would expect him to be able to get himself out of it.'

We kinda know this is true because she reminded Odin that Loki would be there to give Thor counsel if needed when he doubted Thor before his coronation. She also thought of Loki as the preceptive one (even if that sentence was used as manipulation ... it had to have her truth in it). To quote Tom Hiddleston's TDW commentary: "-we always talked about this special bond that Loki and Frigga had, especially when Thor and Loki were children, that Thor was a chip off the old block. He was the quarterback. He was the son that Odin understood. And Loki was the student, an artist, someone who was more sensetive, more delicate."

'Loki only seems to know how to earn back his family's love and forgiveness by essentially being suicidal.'

Yes, that's understandable given his situation + he tends to measure his worth by how useful he is. Self sacrifice after saving everyone is the definition of that. I will keep saying he had the time to move and I don't blame him for staying still; he did what Thor asked of him and he didn't think himself useful after that + it doesn't take much to know that death is better than being returned to rot in a small white room if you succeed.

I'm of the opinion that MCU!Loki would be far more willing to die to save MCU!Frigga than the other way around (even if she's interpreted as genuinely caring for him), and it has fucked up angst potential.