#and any other iteration of persephone/hades actually

[spaceyqueer]

I hate lore olympus, I hate the modern thing of "oh persephone and hades secretly loved eachother and they just PRETENDED for the whole kidnapping thing because the gods would judge them :(((", I hate the villifying of demeter and making her out to be abusive or controlling, I hate the downplaying of literal kidnapping and misogyny.

[demeterdefence]

even ignoring everything else wrong with lore olympus (which in itself feels impossible) there is just something really egregious and insulting at the way a "modern retelling" over an ancient greek myth just full-heartedly whitewashes the entire culture and mythos.

and it's not like rachel is the first to do it - greek myths and legends have been whitewashed for centuries, depictions of the gods have been categorically stripped of their ethnicity and origins long before rachel got a hold of them. it's the fact that rachel goes out of her way to insult the original myths whenever she can, that she emphasizes and pushes a western-centric mindset and viewpoint over and over and over and not only reinforces the whitewashing, but continues it down the line.

like, this is the first episode.

rachel goes out of her way to mock the original styles and wardrobes of the ancient greek world, and i get her attempt was to make persephone feel "out of place" with the more "modern" clothing that the other gods wear, but it really just does more to a) demonize demeter, who is almost always in traditional clothing, b) sexualize persephone.

go even broader with it, move away from the clothing itself, and rachel doesn't even bother to use any of the ancient traditions that are core to the myths. like for the love of god, she uses a christian wedding for persephone and hades!

greece is the birthplace of modern democracy and had a powerful judicial system, and rachel instead uses the modern / western iteration of court because ... why not

(completely unrelated but the inserts of everyone except eros and aphrodite come from the stupid zoom session zeus had back when he first charged persephone with treason, meaning we have proof yet again that rachel isn't drawing the characters into the scene, she's making pngs and sticking them into pre-arranged backgrounds downloaded from stock images)

and there are ten thousand more examples i could pull, because this is just the whole entire comic. you can look at a lot of modern adaptions and see where things have been modernized respectfully, and where they are done with disdain for the source material - no one is claiming percy jackson, for example, is perfect, but the author took a great deal of care in his research, and the love for the original myths and culture shine through. lore olympus has zero respect for the original stories, exemplified in how rachel demonizes demeter - the actual crux of the myth. it's bad writing and bad research and further attempts to whitewash a rich and storied culture that had people from so many walks of life, who existed in full spectrum of lgbt identity, who did not conform or even know of the world that exists today. you can modernize without erasing it, and rachel's refusal to do so is one of the many issues tacked to lore olympus.

[lunamond]

The argument that the switch-up between Tamlin and Rhysand as love interests was SJM making a clever commentary on the inherently problematic nature of the Beauty and the Beast tale is actually really annoying to me.

I'm absolutely not above being critical of this story.

However, just because there are problematic aspects in the foundational version of this story doesn’t mean that modern iterations automatically possess these as well.

So let's look at how modern retellings deal with the most commonly criticised element of the story: the kidnapping.

For me personally, the most important thing to look at when judging how "problematic" the kidnapping in any given Beauty and the Beast story is, is to look at what the actual power dynamics at play are.

Most of these stories tend to feature some inherent power imbalance between the Beauty and the Beast characters. However, most retellings also feature a curse/curser who puts pressure on the Beast to kidnap Beauty in the first place. This means there is always some kind of higher power/authority who holds significant power over the Beast as well.

In the og Fairytale version, we have a scorned Fae/Witch who curses the Beast. The stakes for the Beast are to find a woman, make her fall in love with him, or stay a Beast forever.

How much this gives the Beast a pass for the crime of kidnapping is, of course, sth each person has to decide for themself.

However, most modern retellings tend to significantly increase the severity of the conditions and consequences of said curse, often times putting many lives outside of the Beast's own at stake.

This increase in stakes, at least for me, significantly impacts how much I condemn the actions of the Beast character.

We see this in the Disney version were all the people living and working in the castle were turned into animate objects and risk turning inanimate once the time-limit for the curse runs out, which is essentially a child friendly way of saying that they will all die.

In the YA novel Cruel Beauty (which I already compared to Acotar in an older post), the Beast character is forced to take a new bride every century. Due to the specifics of the curse, the safety of an entire country is dependent on his compliance with the conditions put on him. So, despite the fact that he initially appears much more powerful than the Beauty character, they are essentially both stuck under the same curse.

The first Acotar book works the same way. Tamlin kidnaps Feyre, not because he wants to but because the conditions of the curse put not just the fate of the SC but of the entirety of Prythian at stake.

That's, of course, not to say that this isn't a violent experience for Feyre and her family. But it does mean that Tamlin isn't the instigator of this violent act, but the person responsible for the curse, aka Amarantha.

The attempt to turn this into a subversion of the BnB story by revealing Tamlin as a violent and abusive partner becomes incredibly frustrating, because most of the violent undertone present in the 1st book, that fans like to point towards as an early sign of his future abusive behaviors are not caused by Tamlin himself but by Amarantha (and her batwinged lackey).

But SJM's attempt is especially nonsensical because Feyre's new romance with Rhysand is just a worse version of BnB.

I am aware that the second book, Acomaf, is most commonly marketed as a Hades/Persephone retelling.

But here is the thing; the modern interpretation of Hades/Persephone as a romance is much more akin to the story of Beauty and the Beast than the hymn to Demeter (the og source text featuring the myth of Hades/Persephone), which as the title suggests is much more concerned with the feelings of grief and rage a mother feels in response to her daughter's abduction than anything else.

So, let's judge Feysand's story with the same standards we just used for other modern BnB retellings.

Immediately, we run into the issue that Rhysand doesn't have a higher power above him forcing him to kidnap Feyre (unless you want to count the mating bond, but that is clearly meant to be seen as a positive so that doesn't really work, Amarantha doesn't count either).

However, it gets worse.

He is the one who forces the bargain on Feyre, ensuring she has to spend 1 week in the NC for the rest of her life. When he later kidnaps her, he is fulfilling the curse he himself put on her.

In this version, the Beast character, Rhysand, is not the cursed but the curser. So he is at once the kidnapper AND the higher power enforcing the curse/the cause for the kidnapping.

In a direct comparison between the way Tamlin and Rhysand each fullfill the Beast role, it becomes pretty apparent how utterly SJM's supposed criticism of the BnB story has failed; Tamlin kidnaps Feyre because he is forced to, Rhysand does because he WANTS to.

[jennrypan]

Let's go down the line of fuckassary: LONG ASS POST AHEAD.

1: Gaia looked and acted like everyone else. She should've been WAY angrier, she should be pissed at Persephone for bringing about winter first of all. Should be pissed that she was a sleep and NOTHING got better over the centuries. But sure, she's giggling and happy.

(I liked that she shoved her hand in Ouranos' chest tho.)

2: It's soo funny that people keep SAYING that Persephone and Hades have true love but the comic hasn't showed us that ever 🤨, like if anything those two losers are obsessed with each other. Be so fr.

3: Once again..this should be Persephones story/POV but its in Hades' always. Fascinating.

4: "You have to spend 3 months away from your sugar daddy" OH NOOOO BUT WEVE BEEN APART FOR SO LONGB 🥺. God. At this point does she even NEED to be in the Mortal Realm fr?? Like..Demeter, Metis and Rhea are back now so..what's her purpose there.

5: The way Gaia just isn't. Gaia is baffling. Anyways. Demeter FINALLY found out what happened to Persephone but she's not..having a moment with her daughter?? Not talking to her about it?? Okay.

6: As usual. They're eager to have sex cuz that's the only thing they do. "I can't wait to see that ass--" ..how very Zeus and Posedion of you quote on quote romantic 🤨

7: She gets her coronation but..didn't she already have that when she married Hades?? Ig not then. Also..Apollo just got a slap on the wrist, not surprising.

DEMETER GOT PUNISHED MORE THAN HIM??? Hell the Titans got punished more than that bitch what the fuck??? God.

8: The disrespect to Zeus is so. 😶 Zeus would literally not sit back quietly for this shit the fuck??? Also..Hera didn't divorce Zeus all those years and now she did ?? And she's what..gonna get with Echo now??? Fascinating. Zeus needs to start tossing rocks. Rachel did Zeus and Heras relationship so fucking DIRTY!!!! GOD!! FUCKING DAMMIT. I hate how she wrote them. Anyways.

9: The Mortal Realm is a lot easier cuz Hades is there?? YOU WERE BORN THERE!!! ITS YOUR HOME!! You ungrateful ass spawn. It wasn't that fun cuz you didn't have a man there?? Insane.

10: The way Persephone clearly doesn't love her own mother is sickening actually. Like..we can't even have them talking to each other?? Dancing?? Even the comment about her doesn't have that much emotion. Also..Dionysus' hair looks goofy, and I guess Hades is all for bringing back mortals now despite making a big stink about it in season 1 but whatever. Yay Semele.

11: "hera just gives him busy work" ..He's literally the king. Literally-- oh my god. "His powers having been the same" which..MEANS WHAT?? And the way Zeus would literally not be happy about this shit is so-- UGH. God it's infuriating. Hades and Posedion clearly don't give a shit about their brother if they aren't concerned about his fucking powers 'not being same'??? Die.

12: Echo needs to stand SEVERAL feet away from Hera. That ship is so god damn tasteless and unnecessary. If you're gonna give hera a new love interest. Maybe give them actual moments?? Make it make sense!!

13: "Ares is still a dog!" *cue laugh track sound*, god this is so..why ?? Ares, baby I'm so sorry people keep disrespecting you in every iteration 🤦‍♀️

14: ignoring the Artemis bit cuz she wasn't relevant for any of the major plots and she still isn't. Anyways. Hades stay the FUCK away from Thanatos. "They can have conversations" oh?? How fascinating. Hades just NOW deciding to care about Thanatos doesn't make up for years of his neglect.

15: Persephone, Ares and Aphrodite should beat Eros' ass for being useless about Apollo. I still think that. Eros is an ass of a friend.

16: 'new powers' ..Girl your powers are basically your old powers with one extra step. Shut UP!!! anyways. (No one cares about kassandra, sorry not sorry. Who was worried about that )

17: Hades and Persephones millionth drabble of nonsense fluff. They're not saying anything new, nor are they doing anything new. I do like the art tho. It's just..baffling how..they're relationship started soo much nonsense and we're suppose to see it as a good thing??

THIS is a good ending??

Nevermind the fact Persephone didn't spend time with her friends or her MOTHER, nevermind the fact Zeus and Posedion don't even get to speak to their mother either.

Hera, Hestia and Demeter don't have a moment with Metis either.

Like..what was the point of bringing them back if you weren't gonna bring it to a satisfying conclusion?? Absolutely insane

Also..Eileithyias design is ass. It's sooo boring. It's literally just pilot Hebe but darker. Oh wow she's yellow with purple eyes??? Insidious. Also she just looks boring and bland to be the daughter of the literal king and queen but sure. Give us nothing.

And..again with making the children boring copies of one specific parent! Macaria is so..boring to look at just like Melinoe. Also...hades can..have kids now?? 🤨 okay.

So basically..this was insane from start to finish.

This wasn't a good conclusion. It was absolutely a wreck.

[howlingday]

I must say your Jaune is Hades au has peaked my interest to the max. After rereading my favorite manga Record of Ragnarok, which probably has my favorite iteration of Hades, for the 100th time I was wondering, is this jaune based off any kind of iteration of Hades, or does he follow the actual Greek mythology of Hades. If so, how much of the mythology stories does he follow? Like does Jaune ever use a bident, did he ever get married to Persephone in this au, are there other Greek gods? Then there are questions like was he properly born into the Arc family or did he just make up the whole persona. Many questions for a fascinating au looking forward to more.

So, real talk. I LOVE Greek mythology, and Hades is one of, if not my most favorite of the Greek Pantheon. I feel like each iteration I've met has entertained me in some way or the other.

Be it as an antagonist in Hercules

As a vengeful boss in God of War,

Or as a sympathetic final boss in his own titular series,

It's kind of sad how he's always seen as the bad guy when his brothers have done so much worse than he has.

But I digress.

As for Jaune's role as Hades, I wouldn't say I based him on any of the previous iterations, and more just made him into his own god of the dead and the underworld. He's in charge of taking care of souls when they die and guide them to where they need to go. He's a lesser god compared to The Brothers, which is something I headcanoned for The God of Animals.

Thus far the only comparison I can make to Jaune and any Hades is that he sits on a dark throne in a dark cavern, has blue fire, and views his job as the most important and necessary thing in the world.

So far, there's no bident, and he uses, well, a sword that looks similar to Crocea Mors, though I can't say for certain now if it is the one and the same sword and shield of the Arc family.

Also, there's no Persephone. Being a god may make you a heartthrob to all of creation, but unfortunately, any potential love interest he holds won't last forever. He is to be a king without his queen. Forever alone...

Thus far, there are only four gods in this RWBY universe; the major gods, The Brothers, and the lesser gods, Jaune and the God of Animals. I'm thinking of following a Percy Jackson role for the latter, where they're a fading relic that grow weaker with every prayer that isn't made. In other words, there are those who still worship Jaune, but perhaps one day, his power, too, will fade until he is nothing more than ancient history.

And as for the Arc family, I'll just come straight out with it; I don't know. I thought of maybe making his sisters into lesser gods as well, with Saphron making her decision to become a mother with Terra. I thought of Jaune always existing since the Age of Magic and he's just always been there. To be honest, I'm not really sure what to do with his family. Maybe the answer will come to me at a much later time.

[andiwriteordie]

hi andi ok so I was having hadestown byler thoughts again and first of all. whenever I imagined the "death" I figured it would either be an actual death or it would just be will going to the upsidedown bc obviously mike doing everything in his power to get will back from the upsidedown mirrors the orpheus and eurydice thing. but then uh thought about that smoosnoom post with the eurydice quote and the fact that it's put over pictures of possessed will, when he's losing himself and his memories, WHICH IS ANALAGOUS TO HOW DEAD SOULS IN GREEK MYTH SWIM IN THE RIVER LETHE AND LOSE THEIR MEMORIES. so now, is eurydice will dead? in the upsidedown? possessed again? all of the above? idk but the potential just gets cooler the longer I think about it and I had to let you know. anyway slightly different topic but still hadestown byler though, idk what would happen with hades and persephone plotline aksjddkfk. like I generally say "orpheus and eurydice byler" instead of "hadestown byler" unless I'm trying to be quick about it bc hadestown has a very specific interpretation of the characters that I feel doesn't always map perfectly onto byler (for example. personality types don't line up) and I'm more interested in a byler version of the myth itself inspired from any or all iterations of it and not just specifically a hadestown au. but even if you take out the hadestown interpretation of hades and persephone I still don't really know what you do with that. bc the obvious answer for hades here would be henry except a. who is the persephone?? and b. henry doesn't seem like a very sympathetic person anymore, if he ever was, and a big part of the story is that hades sympathizes with the young lovers. like yeah the myth says it's persephone who feels sorry for them and convinces her husband, but a. that still means he's got some modicum of empathy and shit, and b. hades himself is only unwilling to let them leave bc it sets a precedent for letting everyone else leave. not bc he just wants to keep eurydice around. which again is definitely different from henry. so yeah idk what to do there. I'm sorry I just realized how long this ask is I am very long winded

alright rori, let's do this. setting a timer of 45 minutes for myself because like always, i have way too much to say but also i gotta prep a fic to get posted tomorrow LOL.

okay, so like i think i mentioned answering one or two of your other asks, i saw this a couple days ago and didn't have the energy to answer it yet, but i have been thinking about how i'd answer it. and now i know how i'm gonna answer it lol.

first, i'll say, i think your point of this is that there's a difference between solely orpheus/eurydice byler and then hadestown byler because obviously hadestown is more niche and interprets the myth slightly differently. so i'll talk about orpheus/eurydice byler first, then i'll talk about my thoughts on hadestown byler.

my thing is: byler is just orpheus/eurydice coded in general, as we all well know. and i think the more i thought about this, the more i realized that the show itself (at least the byler part of it) can be viewed as its own retelling an interpretation of the orpheus/eurydice myth, just (hopefully) without the tragic ending.

i mean it's right there in front of us in s1, right? we see eurydice/will being taken into this story's version of the underworld—the upside down. then orpheus/mike spends the entire first season trying to get him back. it's missing that obvious point of the "hey, don't turn around when he follows you out, because you'll lose him" but i'll come back to that in a second.

then, in s2, yes! i love what you're saying about how in greek myths, the river lethe leads the deceased person to lose their memories. so that really then is like will's possession, and so, wow. we again are put into this instance where our orpheus has to go after his eurydice and get him back. mike reminds will of who he is and of the love they share between each other.

but still, we're missing the deal orpheus strikes with hades, and its tragic end. except... maybe we're not?

because in both s1 and s2, we see that the way stranger things has its orpheus make it the underworld to save its eurydice is through a new character—through el. in both seasons, it's that friendship mike forges with el that in the end leads to will's rescue. this is more of a stretch than the way byler fits into their orpheus/eurydice roles, but in a way, mike's relationship with el kind of represents that journey out of the underworld and the tragedy the myth ends with.

mike "saves" will in a sense, but also... he loses will too. the key in orpheus and eurydice's demise is the doubt orpheus begins to feel, right? he wonders if he's been tricked, and he makes the fatal mistake of looking behind him, dooming eurydice to her demise and ending the story in a tragedy.

this, in a more metaphorical sense, could be compared to how in s3/s4 we begin to see mike's own self doubt, the decline in his mental health, how he shuts down, and hides behind his relationship with el. mike's looking behind him—his mistake that causes him to lose will—is something he says himself in s4: that he was worrying too much about el and lost will in the process. so, like in the original myth of orpheus and eurydice, it's the very movement and action that are meant to save eurydice that doom the two lovers. with mike and will, it's the very person who saved will and brought him back to mike twice who ultimately then comes in between them.

(btw, it's not el's fault, obvs. she's not really included in this metaphor/comparison because she doesn't really fit into the myth in a sense, but you know i love my girl and this whole mess isn't her fault either lol. there's probably something there that could be talked about with how el represents the "path out of the underworld" that st's hades aka vecna/henry/one offers to our orpheus. something that would dive more into the messy history of el and henry and the mentoring role he sort of played in her life until they broke off and like. nearly killed each other. but again, that's just an aside.)

anyways, where we then converge from the orpheus/eurydice myth is that when orpheus loses eurydice, he can never get the chance to get her back again. the story ends, and eurydice is dead. orpheus is alone. but as we all see at the end of s4, we see our orpheus and eurydice get a second chance. maybe mike did feel like he lost will because of his relationship with el. he did "turn around" in a sense. but by the ending scene in the cabin, i believe mike knows his priorities again. he makes that promise to will that they'll figure out how to defeat vecna together. they'll stop him together. so if this can be read as an orpheus/eurydice retelling, the ending will be different for them. :)

okay, now on to my hadestown thoughts!

these are all just my personal thoughts about how i might go about writing a hadestown byler fic, because i think for it to be an au of sorts, i'd want to have it set in that little world hadestown has built. as i just rambled about above, i think st's canon can almost be read as an orpheus/eurydice retelling itself, so if i wanted to write about it and dig deeper into the myth, this is the interpretation i personally would go with because i just love hadestown lol.

i mean, you know me and how i write rori, so i'd end up pulling bits and pieces i like from the material and then tweaking as i go. so if i ever wrote this, it would be hadestown (kind of), stranger things (kind of), and orpheus/eurydice (kind of) lol. first off, i like the hadestown setting. i like the concept of it not quite being a death, i like the way it frames a world that is struggling because of others' greed, and i like that within it, there's also a political statement showing how there's power in people standing up against oppressors.

we know that the demeanors of the orpheus/eurydice in hadestown don't line up to mike and will's characters. but what i like about hadestown is that eurydice gets a lot more agency in the story here. she makes that decision to go to hadestown, and unfortunately, it's made in desperation and also fear. but then, when we meet them again in the second act, we see that eurydice is also the primary encourager to orpheus. that they can make it out of here. that she believes in him to show her the way out. that they'll do this together, and that they will lead others with them.

so imagining with mike and will, for me, it'd end up being some sort of cross between their st backstories and the hadestown backstories (so maybe they grow up as childhood friends still, but then they fall in love with each other). established byler my beloved <3 we see mike get stuck in his head and hyper-focused, as he is prone to do, and we see this impact their relationship during hard times in the winter. it makes sense with their canon socioeconomic backgrounds, right? will is more focused on what's in front of them. they have to eat. they have to survive. he doesn't necessarily come from privilege, where mike more so does. so maybe that's a point of contention between the two, and that drives will to make the decision to go to hadestown.

mike, of course, isn't going to leave him down there, so as we'd expect, he goes after will. he goes the long way to hadestown, and he's determined to save will, to bring him back, to do better, to not lose will. because at the end of it all, even with all their flaws and the struggles in their relationship, mike and will love each other. i think el would probably be the hermes in this scenario—the one who helps him gets there but in this story, instead of el being able to help mike save will, she can't. maybe her powers are limited. maybe, if she is more like hermes, she can't necessarily make a decision that impacts another god's domain.

which brings me to your other question about hades. you're absolutely right that hades is more of a sympathetic character, and though he's the antagonist of the story, he's arguably not a villain? he's just a grumpy capitalist lmfao. personally, i still think the real villains here were the fates, but that's a whole other story.

you could, i suppose, if you wanted to—make hopper and joyce your hades and persephone. hopper in earlier seasons and his grumpy gruffness does give those kind of vibes, and we know he and joyce can and will argue with each other when they're at odds lol. but idk, if i did end up writing the hadestown au, i probably wouldn't go that route, just because i do think henry fits the "villain" character better.

so, uh... i think then, that would mean this eliminates the b plot of hades/persephone, so from my perspective, i imagine this then becomes more a discussion on henry as an oppressor and hadestown and henry representing a system of abuse (in the way the upside down and henry do in the show). like i said earlier, i like thinking the fates, who are manipulating the whole situation, are the true villains here, so i'd probably write it where henry is both hades and the fates. he plays the sympathetic role and manipulates mike in their confrontation, offering a way out for mike and will, but then turns around and is also that voice of doubt coaxing mike to turn around and doom will back to hadestown.

anyways, those are just some of the thoughts i've had, and i'm nowhere near to the point where i have the time to write a hadestown/byler esque kinda au... but if i did, i'm sure i'd have more coherent thoughts and ramblings to share eventually lol!

[antiloreolympus]

10 Anti LO Asks

1. Why does RS keep putting Aphrodite down? Like she keeps teasing us we’ll get more on Aphrodite and then uses her like a punching bag like she does with Minthe. Like Aphrodite got “redeemed” sorta 

2. Is there like no justice system for the Nymphs? Daphne turned into a tree, echo and Thanatos know, but nothing is getting down about that. Minthe is a plant for like Idk how long it’s been 3 days?? Maybe more??? Hades told Thanatos she’s a plant (just like his gf) and nothing is getting done about that??? BUT HES CALLED A NARc for actually turning Persphone in which is something that Zeus really wants (I know Poseidon said it but I don’t much on his character which way he leans on this whole thing) honestly feel like this trial arc was written by someone who doesn’t know basic court room stuff

3. Didn’t Rachel mention that she thinks Artemis and Apollo are black? Cause if that’s true, that’s just another example of a poor portrayal, and making those characters black is very…questionable? 

From OP: Artemis in her dream cast was black, Apollo wasn’t there but it’s pretty unlikely that they’d be completely different races (so, he’d be black as well).

4. Maybe Rachel should have played the multi-award winning games Hades™️ to get the basic idea that the three sections of the Underworld are as ancient as Time itself, and no one, not even Nyx, was there when it was created, and Hades and Persephone and co. are merely servants to the realm, not them controlling it and adding whatever they want to it as they please. JFC, how can Rachel claim to be so well researched and even a voice for accuracy when she makes stuff up so egregiously like this?

5. Hey! Not really, LO related (sort of) but I wanted to know if you’ve ever heard about this musical called Mythic? It’s another kind of modern adaption of the Hades/Persephone kidnapping, and although it’s not perfect, it’s probably one of the better ones I’ve seen. Again, there’s a few problems with it, but the fact that Demeter isn’t demonized and there’s actually a healthy mother & daughter relationship already makes it so much better than LO and a few other adaptations I’ve seen

6. yeah im also under the impression the "trial" seems more like rachel trying to "one up the haters" and frame any and all critique thrown at LO as "character assassination" and "slander" when its like, girl, you know she's only on trial for murdering a whole village because YOU wrote it that way, right? the people critiquing it didnt write it this way, YOU did. she seems to be act as if LO exists out of thin air and she can't be held accountable for it or its writing when its HER work!

7. Ah yes, the Goddess whose character consists of making baklava and scrapbooks, the epitome of beauty,  grace and wisdom even though she would be about an infants age in godly years. I also love that fields of Asphodel has been reduced to some purgatory places.

You know what hurts me the most, recently I’ve written a research paper of modern iterations damaging the authenticity of knowledge. For example, due to translation errorthe biblical use of Hades is hell, so most of the western people associate Hades with the Devil while Hades is both the god of the dead and the place where dead people go.

Lastly I find it relevant since how I started my Greek Mythology journey was through the Percy Jackson series and it shaped my initial thoughts, it might be possible that young people will actually associate god Apollo with r**e 

8. There's so many canon LGBT+ couples and characters in greek myth and yet the best Rachel could do was to make up a ship that makes no sense and has as much chemistry as two piece of stale white bread. i dont want her to force diversity, but seriously? it seems like she went out of her way to make it as heteronormative and 1% status quo as possible.

-----FP Spoilers/Mention-----

9. So Hades in all that time of being the absolute monarch, instead of making Elysium or the Asphodel Fields himself to prove he's a caring and thoughtful king, he decided instead the best option was to enslave them so he could make his vast fortune off of their labor? Like this plot point isn't just stupid in regards to how bad LO tries to make Persephone "powerful", this reinforces LO Hades is literally evil, and a random teenage intern has to try and "fix" his self-made issues instead of himself

10. FP// even if Persephone wants to "save the Underworld" (whatever that means) that doesn't negate the flaws in her writing? She even admits its not for the shades or out of the goodness of her heart, it's for herself to feel better, so it's not even a "Savior" moment. No one cared if she if could be dark and complex, we want that! The issue is Rachel going out of her to always excuse P's actions and this "Elysium" plot only proves she doesn't get why P's depiction is critiqued in the first place.

[chrysanthemumgames]

Frequently-Asked Questions

Hey all,

I have… a few more followers than I really anticipated having, and a pretty large backlog of asks. So I decided to pull the most common ones into a single post. I won't be answering further iterations of these questions, so please do check it out before asking something if you can.

General Game/Premise Stuff:

Q1: What can the PC be the deity of/are there other options besides spring/plants/etc.?

Q2: Hey, isn't Hades Persephone's uncle in the myth?

Q3: Hey, doesn't event X actually happen differently in the myths?

Possibly! There are often many versions of a myth and I'm taking loads of creative liberties. It's probably safe to assume I know when I'm being 'inaccurate' and have done so on purpose.

Q4: Hey what's up with Dionysus being a name option? Does that mean something?

Q5: What's the time period/setting here?

ROs (General Information)/"Routes":

Q6: What do the ROs look like?

Q7: Are any of the ROs trans?

Q8: What romantic experience if any do the ROs have?

Q9: Are there any love triangles or jealousy plotlines?

No.

Q10: Are there poly options?

There is one poly option, involving a triad between Hermes, Hekate, and the PC. To access it, simply indicate that the PC is poly in the first section of the game when that comes up, choose either Hekate or Hermes in Chapter 7's route selection, and then indicate that you're favorable to the idea of a poly when it comes up in the second game (this last part is still in progress and not yet implemented).

Q11: What are the RO's 'love languages'?

ROs (Specific Asks):

Q12: What would the ROs do if PC fell asleep on them?

Q13: What's with that spell in the prologue scene? Who did that? Q14: Can a Hadesmancer eventually create some kind of plant or flower he will not kill and give it to him?

This suggestion has been taken under advisement.

Q15: What if the PC was really good at cooking/baking?

Other:

Q16: Have you heard of the Hades roguelike game/Hadestown/Corpse Husband/other related media?

Yes, it has great art; yes I hear the music is excellent; peripherally yes; probably! I'm generally avoiding too much exposure to other things in this vein because I want my version of this story to be very much my own.

Q17: How many games will there be/are there?

Fields of Asphodel is the only game that is currently finished and published. I am currently developing the sequel, called Blood of the Living, which will undergo a public demo and testing process on this blog and the CoG Forums. The sequel will only be playable by PCs who (spoilers follow) end up spending at least six months a year in the Underworld. For PCs who choose to exclusively or mostly reside on Olympus, the story ends at the conclusion of FoA.

[margridarnauds]

Orpheus and Eurydice, Galadred for the ship bingo

I think the problem with musicals, as a genre, is that it can be really hard to build up a couple in a story -- it's a very fine art, especially in musicals that are balancing other characters, and a lot of it comes down to a mixture of pacing, the overall script and book, and the chemistry of the actors. Musicals are a different beast from books, where you can spend a lot more time building these things up, or even films, where you don't have to worry about including songs (which, generally, take up about 3-4 minutes -- Now, a lot of that should be SPENT on characterization, but a lot of the time, it is still taking longer to get to it than if you had a film, where you just have dialogue. Songs have refrains and choruses and all those repeating bits that we love but that take up time.) You're just on a very difficult time scale there, and some composers have/had a natural gift for it (Stephen Sondheim was one notable example, especially A Little Night Music, since he was all about all those twisting relationship dynamics, even though tbh his music wasn't really to my taste), some...haven't.

And the point I'm trying to raise is that there's a reason why there are relatively few official couples in musicals that I really GET behind -- Not to say I dislike them (though...there are....a couple of examples of this), more that I just don't care because I almost view them as vessels to carry a catchy love song. Like, "Okay, we're done, now time for the villain song!" Most of my musical ships will deal with dynamics where the characters never actively say they're in love over the course of the musical and then seeing what it would take to get them to that point, or could get to that point, since I actually don't really like having characters say "I love you" to one another when I can show it through any other way. I have a lot more freedom there to just kind of do what I want and build the characters and the dynamics from the ground up, or to flesh out a lot from what we get in canon.

BUT. BUT. Here's to the actual meat of the matter: I think that Orpheus/Eurydice do manage to buck the trend. Which is impressive because you only have a couple of songs to establish them before everything goes to shit and they have to play against the more On Brand couple of Hades/Persephone. But there's this real earnestness to them, this real idea that they're these two kids who are both kind of looking for a home and a family and love, but they have all these different priorities that are clashing because one of them's kind of been given leave to be impractical while the other one's had to survive. When I was watching it live, I remember even thinking to myself how WELL they were written, in that they're established as a couple you're invested in in...I would say about five minutes? Maybe ten? Because the audience HAS to be invested in them for the story to work. If you don't care about whether they're together, it doesn't work. A part of me is just cynical enough to wonder how much Eurydice's joy at seeing Orpheus in Hadestown is her realizing that Plan B wasn't working out for her and so she was going back to Plan A VS being reunited with the love of her life after realizing what a terrible mistake she made, but I'm going to emphasize: I'm a cynical crone. They're wonderful. I don't think I would ever really be ridiculously invested in them, because as far as I'm concerned, they do kind of have the perfect story, even if it's a sad one, but they do their job in the narrative, they do their job in selling the musical.

The best ship where neither one of them actually meets in any of the medieval Arthurian texts! But no, I really love how you have this dynamic that's really lush, where you can really fill in a lot from what we see of the two of them across different iterations of the Arthurian tradition and what we kind of want to see in Arthuriana going forward, I love the narrative parallels between the two of them, I love their relationships with their fate (both of them are doomed -- one of them just happens to be doomed to be a hero and the other happens to be doomed to be a villain), I love how they're both fanatics in two very different ways, that push and pull where both of them are really being tempted into something beyond their personal moral codes. Galahad being tempted, not just with sex, which I've seen complaints about, but with the world in *general*, with this very real, distinctly unspiritual attachment to someone who is outside of religion, who's outside of God; Mordred with this chivalric code, with this high ideal that he's given up living up to and is kind of reflexively trying to break down at the same time. I always go back to that one chivalric story where Mordred was really INTO chivalry and knighthood before getting the prophecy because I think that, like Bres...it's a matter of not being able to hate something THAT MUCH if you didn't WANT it at one point and then realize you're out of the running. Not even for something that you did, but for something you are. And how Galahad is this ideal from birth, he doesn't struggle with things, he's wanted and loved and told he has this glorious future. And so I feel like on Mordred's end, there's this mixture of wanting to destroy that, to justify to himself that chivalry doesn't exist, that knighthood doesn't exist, this is a rotten system and it's a good thing he's out of it (...my take on Mordred is medieval Holden Caulfield, God help us) VS some part of him still wanting to *be* Galahad and be that ideal. Like, he's everything he hates and everything that he's wanted. And we see in Malory at least that Galahad can be quite cold with his father, while on Mordred's end, Arthur is quite cold with him (.....trying to drown him at birth), so again there's this very interesting inversion going on where they're both the same and radically different from one another -- both of them are never given the luxury of not knowing about the worst sides of their parents.

So like. Never meet in "canon" (using that term because doing this Arthuriana paper for a conference is reminding me once again how little that term really applies), but so many interesting dynamics you can really build with them, so many paths you can take, I think it's a really rich pairing with a lot of opportunity for catharsis and "what if" scenarios.

[virtuosin]

︱︱︱ 𝐓𝐖𝐄𝐋𝐕𝐄 𝐏𝐄𝐎𝐏𝐋𝐄 𝐈'𝐃 𝐋𝐈𝐊𝐄 𝐓𝐎 𝐊𝐍𝐎𝐖 𝐁𝐄𝐓𝐓𝐄𝐑.

ONE ( ALIAS / NAME ): Lenore / Len / Lenny / Leonard / Leonidas / honestly any iteration you want but Lenore is just fine!

TWO ( BIRTHDAY ): June 30th

THREE ( ZODIAC SIGN ): Cancer

FOUR ( HEIGHT ):  5′6″

FIVE ( HOBBIES ): Art / Cosplay / Games / Writing / Vibing with music

SEVEN ( FAVOURITE BOOKS ): The Divine Comedy, The Prince, and The Modern Prometheus (Frankenstein)--honestly I just love a lot of old world literature asdfjkl;--

EIGHT ( LAST SONG LISTENED TO ): Dreamy Night x Agoraphobic - Lily Pichu and CORPSE

NINE ( LAST SHOW WATCHED ): Resident Alien

TEN ( INSPIRATION FOR MUSE ):  Oh man, what doesn’t inspire me for Sona honestly. Listening to music, gushing to partners about her, finding inspirational art, etc. Honestly, the biggest inspiration is music so I often make playlists for certain threads or ships or ‘themes’ so I can tune out while making posts. It’s super nice and helps me write a metric butt ton. I will say, with certain threads in particular, I refer to greek mythos a lot, specifically when dabbling with Persephone; Goddess of Spring and Queen of Hades? Yeah, that’s Sona’s aesthetic honestly  :^)  graceful but deadly.

ELEVEN ( MEANING BEHIND YOUR URL ): virtuosin is actually the German version of her title in game--maven of the strings. I really liked it and thought it was suitable for our baby girl. It was simple, and admittedly I love ‘v’ names/titles a lot, and it exemplified who and what she is; a virtuoso. Fun fact: Sona is dubbed ‘Die Virtuosin’ while Jhin is dubbed ‘Der Virtuose’, one being feminine and the other being masculine.

𝐓𝐀𝐆𝐆𝐄𝐃 𝐁𝐘 : @teluminum

𝐓𝐀𝐆𝐆𝐈𝐍𝐆 :  Not sure who all has been tagged so pardon me if you’ve already been tagged! @vixtionary, @ofshadowreaping / @origami-assassin, @blossoms-and-solitude, @piltover-sharpshooter, @oftomorrow, @regina-tenebris, @starvedwclf, @ascendedswordsman, @noxus-prevails, @hamartio, @pantheon-god-of-war  and anyone else who wishes to do this!!

[potatoesandsunshine]

Hades?

jay thank you for my life... i have twelve hundred things to say about hades At All Times, apologies everyone for the very long post

Favorite character: is it cheating to say zagreus... i simply Love The Lad. also bouldy.

Least Favorite character: mmmm zeus. i do not care for zeus ever and i think it’s a credit to the writing of the game that i hate this iteration of him so much, actually. he’s like the archetypal least favorite uncle.

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon): 

1. achilles/patroclus, a pairing i had So Many Feelings about before ever encountering this game, destroyed me utterly. 

2. charon/hermes... “professional associates” okay boyfriends

3. big fan of zag/hypnos, i think they’d both be very sweet to each other in a way they could both use

4. persephone/nyx, genuinely consider this to be canon... they just had a convo in the lounge and i was like “oh. you are in Love.”

5. just thought about it tonight but orpheus/zag... there’s Something there actually. he said zag had the hands of a musician... that’s something. i’ve shipped for less than that.

Character I find most attractive: this is a crime to ask me. this is not allowed. tie between meg and aphrodite and dionysis and demeter and achilles and tisiphone (probably meg the most but i can’t commit to that. have we considered dionysis’ thighs.)

Character I would marry: eurydice, and she wouldn’t get a snake bite if we were married. rip to orpheus but i’m different.

Character I would be best friends with: given the chance achilles but also just one of the random shades working in the administrative chamber. what’s up with them. we could eat pomegranates and they could tell me what wild shit happened at work.

A random thought: i do maintain that zag should be immune to the lava... my truest nemesis in this game... also not enough minor league baseball team aus in this fandom (this is a joke but is it. i am inflicting this upon the world.)

An unpopular opinion: haha, if i were persephone i would be Extremely Angry and absolutely would march down to the entrance of the underworld and start a war as soon as my son died in my arms for the first time! i understand why that doesn’t happen but... catch me calling my cousin ares like “hello yes i’ve been missing for a long time anyway you’re not gonna believe this shit”

My canon OTP: it’s achilles/patroclus particularly because of the baggage i brought with me. their ashes mixed together... what can you even say to that.

Non-canon OTP: persephone/nyx... but in my heart... they are canon

Most badass character: yeah it’s simply achilles... “he’s only a god” yeah i am aware of that sir. gets extra points for openly siding against the lord of the dead while being dead himself. he has more to lose than almost anyone and he still comes down on zag’s side... he still risks... ugh, fear is for the weak. i love him.

Pairing I am not a fan of: can’t really think of one! the characters of this game are extremely shippable and i have a lot of fun with that! i guess artemis/anyone isn’t really my cup of tea, but it doesn’t bother me or anything.

Character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another): i know i said it already in the unpopular opinion part but persephone... why are you not more angry... (i do have a headcanon that’s like, hey, she gets such limited time with her son she really wants to make it good and cover any negative feelings. something something the role of the parent the need to bury painful things and blunt sharp edges. idk there’s a fic somewhere in the back of my mind about this.) but honestly the writing in this game is overall fantastic i don’t have many complaints.

Favourite friendship: dusa&zag but also the dusa&meg bond... powerful. i love them. 

you can find this ask game here!

[yandere-wishes]

Twisted Wonderland //Theories//

I know this is a yandere blog, but these theories will most likely tie into the characters when I do write about them.  

Jack Howl

We've already preestablished - due to very obvious clues- that Jack is a member of the Canidae family, this is nothing new. But we've yet to discover what specific canid he is. I figure most people write this off as "he's a wolf" due to the last name Howl. Yet in truth, all members of this family make howling noises. Thus not permitting us to say with an efficiency that he is simply a wolf. I think he's a wild dog/ cape dog. My reasoning for this comes from an old 1990's Disney tv show called Timon and Pumbaa. In season one episode twenty-two segment two, Timon and Pumbaa are approached by a paranoid tarsier claiming that there is a wild and dangerous predator on the loss. The tarsier goes so far as to accuse Simba (a fully grown lion at this point) of being said carnivorous beast. Throughout the course of the episode, Timon and Pumbaa try to find truth in what he's saying. Finally, near the end of the episode, Timon agrees to go into hiding in a cave with the tarsier, dragging Pumbaa along despite his disbelief in Simba's guilt. When the trio approaches the cave, their "new companion" takes off their disguise (this is a Disney show, such folie is expected) to revile that he has been the predator all along. And what spices is this predator you may be asking? Well, a greyish-white wild dog with yellow eyes! And who do we know that shares these characteristics? Jack Howl that's who! Spoiler for the end; Simba rushes in and saves his two pals, scaring off the double-crosser at the end. In conclusion, Jack may be based on this overlooked yet fascinating antagonist, due to shared family characteristics and appearances.

Ruggie Bucchi

Despite my dismay that there was only one Hyena counterpart (that seems to be a place holder for all three) I was exceedingly fascinated with Ruggie's design. In the lion king franchise, the hyenas are viewed as lawless anarchists with caliginous personalities. However, Ruggie is drawn as a pure ray of sunshine with unhealthy eating habits.  I have absolutely no idea why this is, and in all honesty, I'm not here to discuss Ruggie's features but rather where his name comes from...or so I think. Looking up the name "Ruggie" the only unmissable accounts I could find where from urban dictionary. The sources stated that "Ruggie" was derived from the word rugrat, It fits. But there was one more rationalization I discovered that seemed more just for this character. In the original drafts of the lion king, Scar (along with Zazu and the hyenas) was meant to sing a song concerning his mania towards his newly acquired position as king of the pride lands. This number was to further familiarize the audience with the antagonist. Alas, it never made it into the movie due to certain questionable thoughts flickering inside of Scar's head. The song was however sung in the broadway musical of the lion king. To cut to the chase there was an interesting part sung here.

Scar: "When my name is whispered through the pride this talk of love or regicide?" Shenzi: "Reggie who?"

Note how the spelling of Shenzi's misinterpretation of the word looks an awful lot like how Ruggie's name is written. I feel like Yana Toboso may have used many undisclosed Disney villain facts (songs, books, Easter eggs, etc) as inspiration with her reconstruction of their twisted counterparts. It could make a lot of sense if Ruggie's name came as a wordplay of regicide (the act of killing a king) and could be a reference to the hyena's role in Mufasa's death.

Sliver

With the introduction of the "Great Seven" I came up with a weird though. What if the spinning wheel form sleeping beauty somehow survived the event in the tale. Sometime later Director Crowly could have found it and used some magic to turn it into a boy. Yet Malificant’s sleeping curse still affected the spinning wheel even in human form, concluding as to why Sliver has abnormal sleeping patterns. This is more of a headcanon really but it's all I got for now.

Ortho

This theory is heavily based on canon greek mythology. I'm certain many of you are familiar with the tale of Hades and Persephone. For those of you who aren't, I won't be discussing the tale here since it has may iterations and I'm only interested in a small portion of the end. So feel free to look it up on google. The first spring that Hades had to endure after the departure of his belove Persephone was an intolerable agony for him. To cope with his trouble, the god of the underworld took to daydreaming. His favorite and most vivid thoughts were those of a daughter he wished to have with his wife. He imagined her in such detail that she sort of became a real person (goddess). Her name was Mesperyian, and she was described as being the most astonishing goddess to ever grace the earth. When word of her beauty reached mount Olympus, Aphrodite the actual goddess of love and beauty became enraged -as she does so often-. Aphrodite set to reclaim her title from Hades's daughter. Hearing of Aphrodite's scheme, he prohibited Mesperyian from leaving the underworld kingdom. Yet what Hades neglected to consider was that Mesperyian was half Persephone and thus retained a frenzied need to venture onto the surface world and experience the lavishness of planets, flowers, and overall nature. A considerable amount of time later the young goddess does just that. Once she arrives in a stunning meadow, she notices a gleaming mirror. Picking it she examines herself, Aphrodite having been watching her this whole time quickly sets fire to the mirror. Now understand that Mesperyian may be a goddess in title and does have a power set parallel to her goddess parents, but she was born from a dream thus rendering her physically not an actual goddess. This causes her to lack immunity to things all gods and goddess should naturally be immune to, such as a fire. When the mirror does catch on fire so does Mesperyian scarring her face severely and permanently. Now, this is a greek myth so when someone ends up....unpleasant they seem to quickly develop an "evil" persona. When Mesperyian takes note of how ugly she has become, she opts to become the goddess of punishment and torture, returning to her father's domain and continuously tormenting the souls of Tartarus. So let's tie this to Ortho, shall we? Ortho (in my opinion) is not precisely based off Hades. Despite appearances, there is nothing else tying Ortho to Hades. Yet he does share characteristics with Mesperyian. #1) Both Ortho and Mesperyian were created by some iteration of a lonely individual caught up in their agony and self-pity. For Mesperyian it was Hades and for Ortho it was Idia. #2) Both of them are not exactly what they were thought to be. Mesperyian was thought up to be a goddess, but in truth was not directly divinity. Despite having powers she lacked many key components of being a "real" goddess. Ortho was thought up to be a little brother for Idia, he may have been created to be an enhanced god or human, that however doesn't alter the fact that he is a sentimental robot and neither a "real" boy or god. #3) Mesperyian was based off Persephone (and slightly Hades). There is no direct evidence the Ortho was based on Idia's real brother or just another person in his life. But it is very likely that all the other theories out there might hold some truth. That could explain why Ortho does bear resemblance to Idia since at one point the "real" Ortho was Idia's flesh and blood (or whatever Idia's made of) so they would have shared genetics. This would tie up this theory.

If you guys have any theories I would love to hear them in the comments!

[illegiblewords]

Some Greek Mythology Hades + Persephone Notes

It’s been funny to me, having this story cropping up in FFXIV stuff lately lol. The myth of Hades and Persephone has been a huge part of my life since I was a little girl. My mom used to read different versions of it to me (among other things) in beautifully illustrated treasuries. I remember even then it made a big impression. One of my favorites.

In high school, I tried to retell the story. And I did an absolute BUTTLOAD of research for it. I read not just the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, Ovid’s iteration, the more recent accounts in Bullfinches and Edith Hamilton’s Mythology. I listened to Monteverdi’s L’Orfeo and read the libretto. I found Claudian’s version. I went to Hesiod’s Theogony so I would understand where the gods came from before discovering their callings.

At the time I wasn’t ready. As a writer, I wasn’t at the level I needed to be and my trying to be historically authentic wasn’t the right road given what resonated for me personally. I do think I’m about ready now, just need to sort some stuff out.

But I have a few thoughts I’m going to include under a cut. This was a little inspired by another post on my dash, and it started with me being a bigass nerd nitpicking a detail lol. And I was side-eyeing myself all “don’t be that guy, it’s a good post”. And then I just got to thinking about the characters again a bit, and I still have a lot of affection and thoughts, so in the end I decided to just collect the bunch and plop ‘em here.

The nitpick thing comes from The Theogony.

Something that really stunned me when I first realized it--the original six children of the titans Cronos and Rhea had no assigned roles or tasks. They were, effectively, just people. Just gods. No elements, no affiliations.

Hestia, goddess of the hearth and home, a virgin, was the eldest. Not the eldest daughter only--of her, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus, she was first. Hades was the eldest son. Zeus, of all of them, was youngest while Hera was the youngest daughter only.

For a long time I’ve thought there was something kind of lonely, sad, interesting, and kind about Hestia and Hades. They both kept to themselves for the most part. Both avoided the drama and extreme punishments/squabbles of the other gods.

Each of the original six except for Zeus was consumed by their own father.

Being gods, they continued to grow and learn and survived even so. But it’s something I think about, and the idea that every one of them who went through the experience faced it alone is something I think about too.

Zeus was only able to escape because Rhea hid him. I wonder if she’d tried to hide the others only to be thwarted every time. I wonder if she stopped wanting to have children because she knew what would happen to them. There may have been a time she loved her husband, but if I remember correctly she helped her children slay him in the end. I wonder if she grew to truly hate him or if any love that remained was just outweighed by her horror.

Zeus had to be suspended from the trees in a cradle. If he’d been on the ground, the sky, or the sea alone then Cronos would have found and consumed him. His formative years would have been ruled by the fear that with one misstep, he’d be discovered and eaten as well. I think about that sometimes too, given he was so afraid of the prophecy that any offspring with Metis would outstrip the father in power that he literally ate his lover before she could give birth. When Athena was born anyway, bursting from her father’s skull in full armor, I wonder if he realized that he’d become the most horrifying embodiment of his father. I wonder what conversations followed between him and Athena that led to her becoming honored and beloved by him instead of feared. And I find it interesting that for all the love and pride Zeus felt for his goddess of war who outstripped him, he only ever felt scorn for Ares--the god of war and his only son with Hera.

But anyway.

Rescued by Zeus, the original six made alliances with their uncles the Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires/the Hundred Handed Ones. And from them, the sons each received gifts to help them do war against the titans who would see them destroyed. Zeus received the lightning bolt. Poseidon, the trident. And Hades was gifted a helm of invisibility. Again, at that point none had any kingdoms or callings.

When the Olympians won, the brothers drew lots among themselves. I actually think the order might have been detailed too. Before they made their selections, I wonder if they were more afraid or hopeful. One of them would be the king of all the gods, ruler of the heavens. One of them would be banished from their midst to dwell only with the dead for the rest of his years.

Hades went first. Hades got what was, in many ways, a sentence to isolation. An exile. He’d done nothing to deserve it except be brave and be willing to accept the risk of that office. Maybe there was a reason for that, and only the one willing to risk shouldering that weight could receive it

I think about how Poseidon went next, and when he was given dominion over the seas I remember reading a little about him essentially throwing a tantrum/small war. Because he wanted to rule. I think about how Hades probably watched that furious reaction. I wonder how he felt and if he and Zeus spoke at all before parting.

Hades, before Persephone, experienced fear at the onslaught from Typhon, Gaia’s son born to Tartarus as revenge upon the gods for killing her titan children. He wasn’t the only one. All the other deities became animals and fled. Zeus was caught and mutilated. Those who remained had to band together and save him.

And I think about how, despite all the wars and squabbles, Hades seemed to appreciate the gravity of his position. He honored the dead he watched over. And it was only when, stricken by Eros’ arrow at the power-hungry Aphrodite’s behest, that his loneliness and need overwhelmed him.

He must have been repressing that for a long time.

In Claudian’s version, Persephone is shown falling in love with the King of the Dead. In L’Orfeo, when Orpheus comes to plead for his wife Persephone makes clear that she does in fact love her husband and considers herself fortunate to be beside him. I think about how Persephone was both goddess of spring (birth and rebirth, the renewal of life) and the Iron Queen whose name mortals feared to speak. I wonder if nature, red in tooth and claw was part of how she reconciled these truths in herself.  I wonder what the process was like as they came to know each other and if it was difficult. I wonder what point it became clear that Hades didn’t simply need Persephone to be any companionship, any light among the dead--but as herself. As his equal and consort, who could and sometimes did challenge his decisions.

I really like the idea that their process of falling in love--Persephone, having always lived in the shadow of her mother without any opportunity to discover who she was for herself, Hades having sacrificed himself to duty to the point that it drove him mad--required both of them to help each other stand on their feet and reclaim their own identities from the circumstances smothering them. I adore the idea that they came to truly love each other after coming to know and love themselves too.

At some point I really am going to write my take on all of this as a proper story. Probably sometime soon. But it’s been nice to see the different ways pieces of Greek mythology get referenced in FFXIV, and when the specific Hades/Persephone story gets brought up by fans I remember this stuff.

[parentsofdustandashes-x]

RULES

Rules aren’t always fun, but they are sometimes necessary to keep things running smoothly.  I would love to write with you, but I’d like to set up a few rules before jumping into things. 

First thing’s first. You can call me Dennis or Orpheus. I am currently seventeen years old, making me a minor. I use he/him pronouns.

GENERAL RULES

I will not roleplay smut with anyone. 

I request that people ask me before diving into the following topics: Suicide, Self-Harm, Sexual Abuse, Sexual Trauma, and Sexual Assault. These topics can sometimes be triggering for me, so I would like discussion before bringing  it up out of nowhere so that I have time to prepare for it. I also request that these topics are tagged. 

If you need anything tagged as a trigger, just let me know and I will get to doing that as soon as possible. 

The actions and thoughts of my muses do not reflect my own personal thoughts or actions.

Please no godmodding. For the unaware, godmodding is when one person controls another person’s character. Please do not do this. 

I am very new to the tumblr rp community, though I have been roleplaying on other platforms for years. If I make a mistake, please let me know so that I can fix it! I’d rather be told than to make the same mistakes over and over again. 

Don’t be afraid to message me! I promise that I don’t bite. 

The rules will update along with new muses and as new rules come to mind.

HADESTOWN RULES

I will write for Persephone, Orpheus, or Hades from the show, as well as other mythological characters such as Zagreus, Melinoe, Makaria, Linus, Calais, Apollo, Dionysus, Eros, or others! Just ask what mythological characters I'd be willing to write for if you have one in mind that isn't listed.

My characters are based on the characters of Hadestown, but I do take inspiration from the myths at times. 

I am a Hellenic polytheist, meaning that my religion actually worships the ancient Greek gods. While you can portray the characters as awful, immoral, corrupt, or overall bad people, please do not speak badly about the actual gods they are inspired by. 

I play Persephone as someone struggling with alcoholism. I do not see alcoholism as something to be taken lightly, even if Persephone sometimes jokes about it and acts like she doesn’t have a problem. Alcoholism is a serious issue and I want it to be known that I take it incredibly seriously. 

I will not write Persephone and Hades’ relationship as abusive in any way. Dysfunctional? Yes. Struggling? Yes. Sometimes a bit toxic? Yes. But not abusive. I think the entire point is that they’re both a little at fault for the state of their marriage. 

I always portray Orpheus as bisexual, as he had both male and female lovers in his myths. 

I will write for almost any ship with any of my characters, but I do look for chemistry. Please do not try to force a ship onto me. 

GREAT COMET  RULES

I will play Fedya Dolokhov, Andrei Bolkonsky, Natasha Rostova, Hélène Kuragina, Pierre Bezukhov, and Anatole Kuragin from the show as well as Ippolit Kuragin and Nikolai Rostov from War and Peace.

I’m currently reading War and Peace and I’m a huge fan of the BBC 2016 miniseries, so I do borrow some characterization and background from those iterations of the characters, but characterization is based primarily on the musical.

I always portray Fedya Dolokhov as bisexual. 

I always portray Natasha Rostova as bisexual and polyamorous. 

I always portray Hélène Kuragina as pansexual and polyamorous. 

I always play Anatole as pansexual and polyamorous.

I portray many of these characters as very sex positive and open about their sexuality, mainly Hélène, Anatole, and Dolokhov. 

Many of these characters canonically have affairs and may not be 100% loyal lovers, mainly Hélène, Anatole, and Dolokhov.

As it concerns the implied incestuous relationship between Hélène and Anatole, I leave it up to you to decide. I am willing to play them as either completely platonic, romantic, or sexual partners, as I believe there is a lot of room for interpretation in the original book as well as in Great Comet. I do not support or condone real world incest and to be honest, this is literally the only relationship that I will ever consider writing as incestuous. 

I will write for almost any ship with any of my characters, but I do look for chemistry. Please do not try to force any ship onto me. 

[qqueenofhades]

The Punisher as Medieval Romance: Tropes, Themes, and Characters

So a few days ago, an anon asked about more mythologies/inspirations for Kastle, apart from Hades/Persephone, and I mentioned that Frank’s character and his overall story arc have substantial (and fascinating) parallels with medieval romances. I was just answering quickly, but I then started to think about it in more depth, and realized that in fact, damn near all of The Punisher can be read as a modern-day medieval romance, sometimes subverting long-established tropes and sometimes playing them almost straight. This extends into Daredevil canon as well, as the characters around Frank also fit into recognizable mythic-medieval roles, and… yes. I resisted writing a long and research-heavy meta, clearly what I needed to do on the last week of term, for oh, forty-eight hours. Then, well, we know how that goes.

A note that I work specifically on medieval history, rather than medieval literature, so if I say anything clangingly bad, I hope my brethren and sistren medievalists can forgive me for it. Also, I don’t know if any of this is intentional on the part of the writers, so it’s not like I am identifying anything they’re specifically doing (or if they are, I don’t know about it), but this is just me, as a nerd, wandering into the candy store and being like “OH HEY GUYS LOOK AT THIS.” Of course, not all the examples fit in every aspect between medieval romance and modern Marvel canon, but there are still enough of them in a number of ways to make this interpretation plausible. And indeed, considering how Marvel stories have become ubiquitously embedded in our popular lexicon almost exactly in the way Arthurian legends and stories did for their medieval equivalent, it’s a noteworthy comparison.

(As you may be able to guess, this will be long.)

Let’s start with the source material. The medieval Arthurian romances are part of what is known as the Matter of Britain: the vast corpus of texts, written and rewritten across several centuries and by countless authors (usually French or English) that deals with some aspect of this mythology. Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Merlin, the Knights of the Round Table, and other characters appear in various guises and playing different roles in each of these texts. They are still “themselves” on each appearance, but the interpretation and the storyline is largely up to each individual author. One may remark that this bears some similarities with the Marvel comic universe. The characters have been written and re-written in a vast array of formats from their first creation to their present modern iteration (and likewise, Hollywood is still making a King Arthur movie every other year). They have been interpreted by many authors and given different plots and re-imaginings, and are part of our collective pop-culture reference in the way that Arthurian romance and chivalric literature was in the medieval era. If Twitter had existed back then, we would have fans begging for Arthur Pendragon to be saved from Camlann the way we now have fans begging NASA to save Tony Stark. It’s a kind of cultural entertainment that you’re probably at least aware of, even if you’ve never participated in, and thus has reached similar levels of saturation. The Arthurian romances inspired endless knock-offs. We likewise have an omnipresent superhero genre. It reinvents and redefines the hero’s journey for its particular day and age on a massive scale. In some sense, we don’t even need to explain these characters or tropes, because everyone already knows who and what they are.

So… onto Frank. At first glance, he is a considerably unlikely medieval romantic hero, right? He’s rough around the edges, has (to say the least) grey morality, and is generally regarded as an outcast and a loner in his community, rather than some idealized, flawless Sir Galahad type who has never done anything wrong in his life and nobly avoids all temptation. But he’s actually a hero in the middle of his trials and tribulations and the corresponding loss (and eventual reaffirmation) of heroic identity. The broad strokes of Frank’s character arc, as seen in Daredevil season 2 and Punisher season 1, are these:

Separation from home and family;

Exile from society and the implied loss of chivalric (military) virtue;

Test of honor/contests against other knights, good and bad (Matt Murdock, Wilson Fisk, Lewis Wilson, etc);

Search for the Grail (life, restoration to honor, vengeance for his family, completion of the chivalric quest);

Partnership with worthy knights on the search (David Lieberman, Curtis Hoyle);

Resisting temptation from a knight’s wife (Sarah Lieberman);

Saving a fair maiden and having to be worthy of her love, while bound by a code of secrecy (Karen Page);

Confrontation of betrayal by an intimate/revelation of the dark side of chivalric honor (Billy Russo);

Menaced by a quasi-mythical and possibly demonic figure who must be defeated, who fights him in a parallel battle at the beginning/end of the story (Agent Orange/Rawlins);

Attempt to re-enter society and re-establish identity (end of s1, though that will be once more disrupted and complicated by s2);

All of this is, basically, the overall character arc for a medieval hero. Pretty much beat by beat. Also, while we’ve gotten used to think of ‘chivalry’ as implying a certain kind of idealized and virtuous behavior around ladies (holding doors, gentlemanly actions, whatever) that was only a small part of the overall code of chivalry – which, at its core, was an ethos about fighting, military prowess, and the display of valor through acts of war. Frank says that he loves being a soldier, and this would be a sentiment familiar to a medieval knight. Chrétien de Troyes has a line about how, essentially, only morally suspect half-men prefer peace. The soldier’s proper right, duty, and true joy in life is the practice of war, and he earns chivalry – martial renown – by doing it. It is not merely a pretty or romantic veneer on courtly behavior (though that is often how it is presented), but about war, the military, the destruction of opponents, and the very nature of being a constant soldier. To say the least, this fits Frank’s character extremely well. He is the consummate soldier who in fact needs a constant war to fight, and who has built an honorable legacy for himself (decorated Marine, Navy Cross, etc) prior to his forcible separation from society. This darker, grittier underside of chivalry, when the violence, bloodshed, and distortion of self was a constant concern, also fits very well with the tone of The Punisher.

That separation is often the keystone for a medieval hero’s journey, and functions to drive him out from the context in which he has until now been respected and earned his living. Sometimes we have an outright reason for that action, sometimes the hero just leaves Camelot and sets out on a quest, but Frank’s separation from society bears some similarity to Bisclavret, a twelfth-century werewolf romance written by a woman (Marie de France), and interesting for various reasons. (Some literature is available via Google Books.) In this case, the hero (the eponymous Bisclavret) is driven from society by the treachery of his wife, who hides his clothes so he can’t turn back from a wolf into a human and is forced to spend seven years in the forest as a beast. Of course Frank loses his wife, rather than being betrayed by her, but there’s still the connection between loss of wife – loss of home – loss of self, resulting in exile to the margins of society and transformation into a “monster.” Bisclavret never gives up his principles and identity even while forced to remain a wolf, and Frank gains a reputation as the “Punisher,” but likewise adheres to his own code of honor. He remains a knight, even if a knight-errant.

Bisclavret is rescued and brought back from the woods by an unnamed king, who sees his humanity and treats him well even as a monster (and yes, there are some definite homoerotic undertones in the fact that it’s the king’s love that restores him to himself, after his wife rejects him for his monsterhood or arguably, queerness). However, you could credibly parallel this to Frank and David Lieberman, who believes that he can help Frank and they can restore him to his former self/his good name. David of course physically helps Curtis care for Frank after his injuries in TP 1x05, and in general performs the humanizing role for the “monster.” He serves as Frank’s companion in the wilderness and believes that he is not the way the rest of society sees him (just as everyone else in Bisclavret sees him as a werewolf and has to be convinced by his good behavior that he’s really a man). Likewise, Karen recognizes early in Daredevil season 2, and never gives up in believing, that Frank still has honor. He’s (literally) not a monster to her. He has been expelled from the chivalric society in which he operated before, but he has not completely abandoned his morality.

Next, as noted, the motif of contests against other knights is essentially a central theme in all quest narratives. Frank must match his wits and skills against challengers, and be paralleled and anti-paralleled to them. One of his most obvious foils is against Matt, as they are explicitly set up as reflections and reverse images of each other. In some sense, Matt is the perfect chivalric knight, at least in DD s1/s2. His morality tends to the black and white, he always has some sense of how his faith informs or restricts his actions, and he constantly incorporates the church’s teaching into his sense of self. As Richard Kaeuper discusses in Holy Warriors: The Religious Ideology of Chivalry, this is basically exactly what the medieval church would want for a knight. Some degree of coexistence (sometimes a great deal) exists between chivalry and Christianity, but the underlying question of violence and sin always underlies it – can a man who makes his living by killing people really claim to be acting in a holy cause? Matt avoids this paradox (or tries to) by not killing anyone, but Frank almost exactly embodies the tension between these two ideologies that was ever-present in the medieval era. Clerical moralists always worried that knights were too comfortable with killing, violence, and general unethical behavior (even as they needed and co-opted that violence for their own purposes, such as the preaching and popularization of the crusades). For their part, the knights often selectively used the parts of Christianity that they liked, and fashioned it into their own ethos, just like Frank does to justify his campaign of vengeance.

In other words, Matt and Frank are perfect symbols of the struggle between church and chivalry, with Matt embodying one side (reconciliation) and Frank embodying the other (estrangement), but neither of them are completely excluded from knighthood despite their differences. They’re in fact the central tension of its existence – how violent can a knight be, and how much consideration, superficial or otherwise, does he have to pay to the church’s restriction of his ethics and behavior? There is some argument that chivalric literature was written as an attempted correction or moral instruction for real-life knights, who were supposed to take it as guidance on their own behavior and be more merciful. This isn’t always the case, since as noted, the literature exalts the very kind of violent behavior that built a chivalric reputation, but there was always that inherent wariness about how much was too much. Matt and Frank push and pull each other on this very question, end up working together at points because they are both within the system, but can’t fully reconcile.

(Also I’d like to point out: Stick, Matt, and Elektra as Merlin, Arthur, and Morgana. Stick is the mysterious, possibly immortal mentor, who teaches and mentors both of them, but also misleads and manipulates them for his own purposes. Matt becomes the ‘hero,’ son of the dead/fallen king (Uther Pendragon/Battlin’ Jack Murdock), while Elektra becomes the villainess/feared sorceress, marginalized by a society frightened of her agency and unwillingness to play nice. Also, one of Arthur’s two half-sisters, usually Morgause but sometimes Morgana, is the mother of his illegitimate son, Mordred, who is prophesied to be his destruction. So there is a dark/forbidden/taboo sexual aspect to their relationship, and just as Mordred causes the ultimate fall of Camelot, Matt and Elektra are literally caught in a falling building at the end of Defenders, which destroys their current identities. Matt enters Once and Future King stage after that and at the beginning of DDS3, where he is ‘gone’ or sleeping or suffering a crisis of faith and must summon up the wherewithal to return, and the character of Benjamin Poindexter becomes one of the many Arthur imposters. There are also some parallels for Elektra with Nimue, the ambitious young student of Merlin’s who overthrows him, ends his reign, and imprisons him in a tree.)

Anyway, back to Frank. So what are knights actually doing with all this questing? Well, various things, but they’re most often searching for the Holy Grail: symbolic of eternal life, forgiveness and atonement of sins, return to self. For this reason, few of them actually find it or are able to encounter it without being changed. It too has a deeply underlying Christian context, and Frank, the ex-Catholic, has been estranged from his belief but not separated entirely. (Likewise, if you were not worthy to look on it, you could be blinded, so… the fact that Matt himself is blind is arguably a commentary on who he actually is vs. how he imagines himself.) The Grail is also, interestingly, in the custody of a figure known as the Fisher King. He is the keeper of the castle where the Grail is hidden, and in the context of the Punisher, he’s basically Curtis.

The Fisher King, for a start, is always wounded in the legs or the thigh, and unable to stand. Some scholars have interpreted this as a metaphor for castration (since “thigh” is often a euphemism for the genitals), and that the Fisher King is passive and impotent because he is physically unable to perform warfare and thus to acquire chivalry. Either way, the Fisher King is the keeper of eternal life, but is physically disabled and needs the help of a knight to activate that power. Curtis is to some degree a subversion of this trope, because he is explicitly not helpless and functions to enable other questing knights (veterans with PTSD) to search for the Grail (health and reconciliation to society)… but in TP 1x09, he still needs Frank to save him. Frank has to encounter the Fisher King and make the correct choice/ask the right question (which wire to cut) to save him and continue his own path toward the Grail. Curtis, by running the veterans’ group, is symbolically the keeper of eternal life, where questers have to literally ask questions/talk to each other to restore themselves, and Frank, by going at the end of s1, is still trying to reach it. But true to form, with the beginning of s2, he’s not going to be able to entirely get there. There is still another obstacle/quest to overcome.

So what about Karen? Visually and to some degree topically, she is set up as the lady whose love Frank needs to obtain and maintain, even in the wilderness of his exile. Karen is blonde-haired and blue-eyed, which was often viewed in the medieval era as the ideal/most beautiful kind of woman (because white supremacy in Europe has always existed to some degree, even if in differently constructed ways. However, the thirteenth-century Dutch romance Morien, and some other ones, feature black and mixed-race protagonists, who are just as able to achieve the predicates of the heroic quest as others). She is also, as discussed above, one of the only people to believe in Frank’s honor and to reach out to help him. However, this relationship has to be kept secret, and has the potential to destroy them both if revealed. This is a fairly close parallel to another of Marie de France’s romances: Lanval (adopted in fourteenth-century English form, by Thomas Chestre, as Sir Launfal).

In brief, Sir Lanval, after being cast out from Camelot, meets a fairy woman and they become lovers, and she promises him that he will have everything he needs, as long as he keeps her secret and never mentions her to anyone. (Marie’s original version of this is much less misogynist than Chestre’s, which adds Guinevere making sexual advances to Launfal and her jealousy being the cause of him being thrown out, so yes, Dudes Ruining Stuff has a long history.) This is not an exact analogue to Frank and Karen, but keeping the code of secrecy (Karen obviously can’t tell anyone about Frank, Frank receives what he needs from her in terms of information, emotional support, etc, but likewise can’t tell anyone about it) is paramount in both relationships. Speaking about the relationship or revealing it to the outside world will result in its destruction, and the fairy lady has to vouch for Lanval’s goodness to the court in Camelot, just as Karen stoutly defends Frank to the court of public opinion/literally everyone. In some sense, while the knight has to rescue the fair maiden, the fair maiden is also the arbitrator of his fate and his overall reputation. (Also, all of TP 1x10 is  basically Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart, in which Lancelot must rescue the abducted Guinevere from Meleagant, and having to struggle with the revelation of this relationship and the fact they can’t be together and the dictates of public/proper behavior. Anyway.)

Lastly, Frank’s initial and final conflicts, and the overall shape of his quest, are dictated by his encounters with two archvillains: Billy Russo and William Rawlins, or “Agent Orange.” These are made especially painful for him by the fact that they are or were both close to him. Billy was his best friend, essentially part of his family, and as noted, there is a major theme in chivalric literature revolving around a betrayal (and subsequent murder) by those closest to you. We already discussed King Arthur being overthrown and killed by his incestuous illegitimate son, Mordred; the best-known version of that tale is of course Thomas Malory’s Le Morte d’Arthur, though only the seventh book, as linked above, actually tells the story of Arthur’s death. There is also Arthur’s half-sister and Mordred’s usual mother Queen Morgause; in the Morte, she is killed by her son Gaheris for committing adultery with Sir Lamorak and dishonoring her husband, King Lot. So in one sense, the knight is always doomed to face a betrayal from within his family, or from a close friend.

However, Billy Russo is also straight-up one of the demon knights of Perlesvaus, or, The High History of the Holy Grail. In Perlesvaus, Lancelot is haunted by the specter of these demon knights, who engage in a dark mockery of chivalric behavior, excesses of violence, and satanic imagery, and are otherwise the “dark side of the force” of honorable knighthood, as Richard Kaeuper puts it in Chivalry and Violence in Medieval Europe. Honor and chivalry are not permanent or unchangeable qualities, and in fact are very fragile. The perfect knight can and should have both of these, but he can also lose them very quickly by impious, dishonorable, murderous, or otherwise wrong actions. The demon knights are a metaphor and a commentary on the same tension we discussed in regard to Frank and Matt: when does a knight-errant become a bad knight? When does his behavior permanently transgress him and cast him beyond the reach of repentance? Billy outwardly embodies the same qualities as Frank, has been through the same wars, is part of the same order, but he isn’t a hero on a quest whose chivalric identity can eventually be reconciled to him. He has crossed too far to the wrong side of the line; now he is the embodiment of evil, a shadow parallel and a cautionary tale. He is not a knight-errant, he is merely a monster.

Then, of course, there’s Rawlins/Agent Orange. Noting the fact that his nickname is also color-coded, we can see some parallels to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In short, in this tale, a mysterious “Green Knight” challenges any man to strike him, with the condition that he will get to return the blow in a year and a day. Sir Gawain accepts and beheads him, after which the Green Knight stands up, picks up his head, and remains Gawain of his promise. Gawain has to struggle to both honorably keep his bargain and avoid dying, and is eventually struck at in return by the Green Knight, wounded, but not killed. In some interpretations, this has just been a test all along for Gawain to prove his honor, or an attempt by Morgana to deceive him and cause him to betray his chivalric ideals, and the Green Knight is just a pawn to achieve this. In others, the Green Knight is a potential embodiment of the Devil. (He also has a dual identity, as the Green Knight/Sir Bertilak, as Rawlins does.) Frank strikes at/beheads/blinds Rawlins, as seen in the flashbacks of TP 1x03, so Rawlins literally wants to do the same to him (an eye for an eye) in TP 1x12. In the story, Gawain and the Green Knight part on cordial terms, but in this case, Frank has to actually complete the death/destruction of his opponent. Like Gawain, however, he is wounded but not killed, and must find some way to survive his encounter with a possibly demonic entity determined to pay back in exact measure the physical wound/symbolic beheading inflicted earlier.

So. . . yes. Overall, both in the broad parameters of his character arc, in the obstacles he confronts, and the other people he meets and the encounters he plays out with them, Frank is actually an excellent hero for a modern-medieval romance. The essential core of the medieval romance was not about love, though that was often present, but about identity, adventure, and the challenge to self, and while in some places these tropes have been updated or nuanced or subverted, in others they’re played as recognizably or directly descended from their medieval counterparts, and the way in which we have thought about stories and enjoyed them for a very long time.

[ourlittlesecretokay]

What pairings do you actually ship (and not hate-ship like violaf)? From any fandom, not just asoue :)

oh BOY. Great fucking question. My immediate hard-yes’s are Howl and Sophie, Louis and Lestat, and The Phantom and Christine. Other notable contenders are Han with either of the twins, Enjolras and Grantaire, and Mulder and Scully. This is a very confused and all-over answer, so I apologize for that. Oh, and Persephone and Hades. Also Tam Lin and Janet, from the original ballad. I think they’re also characters in ACORAT, but I’ve never read it, so... Also any iteration of the love square, but esp Marichat. Also the Jersey Devil and Mothman. They’re cool. And Arthur and Fenchurch okay I’ll stop now