#and Disney picked that up rather than just leaving the skywalkers and Jedi character development alone after the ot films endings

[gch1995]

I actually read a lot of really great Star Wars canon-divergent AUs and missing scene fanfics in which Anakin and Obi-Wan make amends with each other. I imagine they would have had to off screen for Anakin to be able to be on seemingly good terms by the end of ROTJ. I think it’s a pretty fitting theme in the line of the narrative for them to make up.

My problem is that George Lucas was too afraid to fully commit to portraying the Jedi Order as a well-meaning, but still seriously flawed organization that needed to really change for the better in a number of ways. If you ignore the sequels and other Disney Jedi/Sith content, then it’s easy to believe that Luke actually learned from his predecessors mistakes, and rebuilt a healthier and more balanced Jedi Order. If you just read the old EU, watch the OT films, and watch the prequels, then it’s easy to believe that the Jedi actually got to become the heroes they were often too afraid to be the first time around in the prequels when Luke’s father was growing up in it. That’s the logical direction Luke’s character seemed to be going in at the end of ROTJ from his background and character development.

Even then, though, there’s still the fact that Obi-Wan and Yoda never really get framed as wrong for deliberately deceiving, endangering, and manipulating Luke in order to use him as a weapon to kill his father “for the greater good” of the galaxy. I understand they believed they had pure intentions, but so did Anakin when he abused his power over Luke to try to lure him to the dark side to kill Palpatine and gain freedom to “rule the galaxy together” to “make it a better place.” I get that he was much scarier than Obi-Wan and Yoda in regards to his treatment of Luke and his friends in the OT films, but Anakin was still framed as wrong for using shitty and selfish methods that he knew were wrong in an attempt to secure freedom and power “for the greater good,” too. Luke didn’t grant him forgiveness until he could realize that he was being too cowardly and selfish to do the right things in the right ways for his son and admit he was wrong.

Obi-Wan and Yoda never really go through this sort of character development arc for growth in the OT films for their abuse of power over Luke. They never apologize, express remorse, or admit they were wrong to Luke. They never feel the need to make amends to him for mistreating him for their own ends.

George Lucas even verbally denied/retconned his own canon narrative on screen with a bullshit explanation to bend over backwards to try to absolve Yoda and Obi-Wan of their mistreatment of Luke in the OT films because he was so afraid of fully committing to making the old Jedi Order deeply flawed characters who needed to improve a lot.

Then, because Disney couldn’t keep their greedy and lazy hands off the franchise, they continued George Lucas’s exceedingly indecisive and lenient attitude in regards to the Jedi Order in the canon narrative that we saw shades of throughout the OT and PT films. Thus, the growth that Luke logically should have led the new Jedi Order with got undone.

In other words, I don’t mind fanfic stories of Anakin and Obi-Wan eventually making amends. Amends have to be made on both sides, though, not just Anakin’s and not just Obi-Wan’s. A full exploration of what went wrong on both their sides needs to be present, both characters need to be willing to fully admit they were wrong, eventually understand why they were wrong, and eventually grow from it in a positive way. Otherwise, a fanfic of them making amends doesn’t work for me.

I think what really irritates me is when people create a what if of au HC or fics to when Anakin is alive and Skywalker family lives happily but people make it so that Anakin spends most of his time with Pamde and the kids and almost no time with Obi as if he is still would resent Obi for what he did during the fall of the Jedi if people really portray Anakin like this then they really don't know him at all

[fulokis]

Thoughts on Wandavision

Spoilers duh.

I started this out as a boredom watch as in eh why not. I was not really invested until Evan Peters showed up. Evan Peters aka the guy who played quicksilver in the X-men fox universe. With DoFP being my favorite partially because of quicksilver. So naturally I became way more invested in the show, not only that but I became hyper-fixated on X-men as a result.

So marvel brings in this actor and all the fans of the X-men are like yeah duh that makes sense, especially considering Wanda is heavily involved with MoM, the movie about the freakin multiverse. So fans of X-men and doctor strange (of which I am both) become exited for the possibilities that this opens up. Excitement builds and as a result people end up watching more content on Disney+ whether it be the movies shows ect.

And then they go and say nope it’s not. And even if they do retcon it it’s still a really crappy thing to have done. And what do I mean, this is part of marvel trying to surprise fans through subverting expectations. And yes sometimes it’s nice, but other times you end up with a mess that leaves more questions than answers.

Take Endgame and Infinity war. Now I knew that Thanos was going to win in infinity war. It was a matter of how he would win. But part of my issue with infinity war is that it felt like it barely spent time exploring how the different characters would interact with each other because there were too many and it would have blocked the narrative from moving forward. Endgame had a similar issue but on top of that they were so focused on keeping everything locked up that it didn’t exactly feel like a cohesive movie. And as a result the character interactions and relationships fell quite short. Not only that but some of them made no sense, but taking a look at endgames flaws has happened enough.

So taking a look at wandavision I’m not upset that my therory is incorrect. I’m upset that one they literally did this to subvert expectations because they hate when their shows are predictable, and two people are rubbing it in our faces that we were wrong and we shouldn’t be upset because it was a theory. And what’s more is that they had an example of fans being correct and it was still surprising.

My mouth still dropped at the reveal that it was Agatha. I still was surprised even though I knew it was coming. I know a lot of people were. And I can say it was because of the fact that we got it right that we knew where it was going and it was executed in a way that still made it feel like a big reveal. So why then are they trying to surprise the fans with well it was Ralph duh haha got you.

Because for some reason marvel hates when people can predict something. Which makes me wonder why they went with the infinity war storyline and are seemingly going with the Skrull storyline if they don’t want fans to predict what’s happening? Why are they going with well known storylines from the comics if they don’t want anyone to guess what is happening? Especially if the fans know the storylines and end up becoming disappointed if you don’t include this one specific moment.

And this is an issue because it sets up fans to know how something will play out, then turning around to subvert expectations ending up with something that doesn’t quite make sense with the narrative they had set up and teased and the characters. It doesn’t work to take pre established stories and adapt them to the screen while trying to subvert expectations. You need to pick one or the other, you simply can not do both.

There’s a reason that people are so finicky when adaptations of books are brought to the screen. It’s because they enjoy those stories and they want to see it as close up on the screen as possible. They want to see how they imagine it. And yes it’s tricky because people imagine it many different ways, but with comics honestly you have a story board right there. And yes you will need to change certain things especially to fit in the budget and physics of real life. Not to mention erase some of the problematic social injustices found in the earlier comics.

And yes wandavision isn’t based on one comic story line. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have to be predictable. Take a look at some other examples that I can think of that either were predictable and good or subverted expectations in a positive way that didn’t confuse people.

Mandalorian: Luke Skywalker being brought in was a surprise. We knew that a Jedi might come, in fact it seemed quite likely that a Jedi would come to train Grogu. But the thing was we didn’t know who, we didn’t know if it would be Luke or another Jedi. Potentially it could have been one we hadn’t met, but we knew that one was coming and that still didn’t stop us from being surprised. And if it wasn’t Luke people wouldn’t have been mad because they left it ambiguous who the Jedi was until he was onscreen (unlike deliberately casting an actor that is known for a role then saying nope not him).

Mandalorian: This one is short but it’s a way to do both predictability and subverting expectations. The first episode of the second season was legitimately the plot from the 2003 game Knights of the Old Republic or Kotor for short. Fans of the game knew exactly how it would turn out, or at least how they would attempt to kill the dragon. They did do that, but unlike expected it didn’t work. So they tried a different tactic that paid off. As a kotor fan I expected this, I also expected the pearl at the end of the episode, but that didn’t stop me from enjoying it, and honestly I rather enjoyed it and it was fun. And I think most kotor fans would agree.

A series of Unfortunate Events: The Netflix show not the movie. In the books Olaf’s bench people get killed off, in the show they made it so that these people survive. I didn’t expect that, and it was good. The writers were still able to make something that fans of the book knew exactly what was going to happen and the general way that things were going to happen. But they adjusted things so that there were some surprises to viewers who read the books. And none of the changes were done specifically to subvert expectations they were done to enhance the story in certain ways. And they do even if they weren’t completely expected. And it still allows me to enjoy the show.

Kotor: yes I’m talking about the game and yes I’m still obsessed with it despite it being so old but also spoilers for it follow so skip if you don’t wish to know.

Kotor follows the story of a human being, they discover slowly that they were once feared across the galaxy known as the Sith Lord Darth Revan. Now can you figure out the twist through context clues absolutely. But it was not only revolutionary for the time but also knowing it still doesn’t take away the surprise feeling for a lot of players (I’m still surprised pikachu face no matter how many times I play or rewatch the cut scene).

There are many more examples but these are the ones off the top of my head.

I’m not angry at the fact that they were trying to make it surprising. I’m angry at the fact that marvel knowingly did this, and there’s no resolution at all. It’s a throwaway scene for a throwaway character played by a known actor who is known for his role as quicksilver. If it was someone else and they did this it would not be as upsetting. But the fact that marvel did this and knew exactly who they were casting to just mislead the fans is inexcusable. And maybe this isn’t the end of the storyline, but right now it is. 12 hours after the finale it absolutely seems like the end of the storyline. And that’s why people are upset because it was such a clear this is what is happening, then they develop it into just this dude. They led on it was quicksilver and we don’t even get to see the rest of the conversation that Monica has with him. We get no resolution whatsoever. And that’s what hurts the most, if they had explained hey Agatha did this and managed to somehow do X Y or Z to have this random person have powers and these memories. Now it would be cheep and people would still be upset but not as much with the incomplete explanation and the throwing it in there because they had to.

If they really wanted to subvert expectations they one shouldn’t have brought Evan Peters in to play a quicksilver (I hate saying this because I was so exited). Two shouldn’t have gone with anything to do with Agatha or even Mephisto. And a lot of people would probably wonder who they could have gone with and Tbh I don’t remember who I saw said it but Mojo would make sense. Or hell they could have brought in Evan Peters and an alternate version of Wanda who is causing this to happen and stir the pot. Either way the way they executed it was extremely poorly done and that’s why people are upset.

So please consider that for people this would have made a huge statement for. X-men fans are drawn to the X-men for many reasons. And I would say that some of those reasons are that they belong to a minority group and feel represented in the X-men. Me I’m LGBT+ and despite having grown up in a very progressive area, there are people I interact with where I don’t feel like I can be myself or even feel comfortable coming out to. And that’s why I personally am attached to the X-men. And I’ve seen other people say similar things.

For people the X-men and mutants aren’t just characters. They’re characters that marginalized groups can relate to. They’re characters that they can see themselves in. This goes much more deep than my fan theory wasn’t correct. It’s a combination of crappy writing and Marvel attempting to be surprising and the fact that they had the perfect opportunity to introduce a cast of characters that represent struggles of marginalized communities and recognize that yes the world isn’t just filled with hero’s that are cis straight abled men and women. And even if it was people from another universe it still was a step in the right direction.

So please if you’re fine with this and took the time to read this don’t make fun of the people who are quite upset with the developments of the episode. A lot of us are upset for a deeper reason and seeing people go “haha you’re wrong you idiots.” Makes this feel that much more upsetting.

[mithrilwren]

So, hmmm... I saw The Rise of Skywalker last night and... I have notes.

Nothing I say here is going to be super original, probably, but hey, I’m going to talk it out anyway. 

I walked out of that movie saying, again and again, that that script needed about 6 more rounds of polish. It is frankly baffling to me that a Hollywood movie, with so much money and so much time and so much investment thrown into it, could make it to filming on a script that disjointed. So many times, an avenue was proposed as the ‘only’ solution to the current problem, only for that to be unceremoniously dropped and for another avenue forward to miraculously appear. We never got any explanation for what Finn was going to tell Rey before they fell into the sand pit, despite it being built up multiple times as something significant. I’ve seen speculation that it was that he meant to tell her that he was Force-sensitive, but that particular plot thread was treated with so little fanfare by the rest of the script that I barely realized its implication until after the movie was done. Because of COURSE the fact that Finn is Force-sensitive is important - it means Rey isn’t the last Jedi! That’s huge! But the film makes no effort to re-contextualize the audience on that fact, because Finn and Rey never discuss it. They don’t even speak after the final battle. (I would love to see Folding Ideas do an editing breakdown of this movie, akin to the one he did for Suicide Squad, because it deserves a comprehensive, hour-long run-down of everything that went wrong on both a scene-by-scene and structural level.)

I saw a number of reviews that likened the script to fanfiction, which is... one of my least favourite forms of cheap criticism, because it nearly always betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what fanfiction is, and what its specific flaws tend to be. Instead, the term is used as a synonym for ‘bad writing’, which is frustrating to say the least. Fanfiction, on the whole, tends to be highly character and relationship-centric. That can come with its own pitfalls, but it’s baffling to apply that label to this movie, which spends so much time jumping between action sequences and macguffins that we almost never have time to linger with any characters in a meaningful way, or to develop the relationships between them beyond single, unsupported lines about how much they mean to each other. The exception to that is, possibly, the relationship between Rey and Kylo - and I don’t mean relationship in terms of the highly-controversial ship (that’s another whole conversation that I have no interest in diving into) but just in terms of two characters having multiple interactions with each other that change them as people in some way. Even that relationship felt rushed, but it was more than most of the other characters got.

My main gripe about the ‘Rey Palpatine’ twist is not so much that I think it’s bad, inherently. There are interesting things they could have done with that idea, even it’s not the direction I personally would have chosen! My main issue - and again, this is not a hot take, this is just common sense - is that this was so clearly not something they were building up to in the other two films, and so it comes completely out of left field. I have to wonder what someone who’s only seen this new trilogy thought of this plot thread, because the movie doesn’t exactly take a lot of time to explain who Palpatine actually is? There’s a large degree of assumed knowledge from the audience, because in lieu build-up in the previous two movies, you need the lore of the previous movies to even begin to contextualize what’s happening. What does the moment where Rey uses lightning to destroy the shuttle mean to someone who never saw Luke being blasted to the teeth with the same? Where is the creeping horror that the original trilogy managed to build around this shadowy figure, pulling the strings in the background? Who is this dude, anyway?

I’m probably in the minority who (on paper, if not in actual viewing pleasure) liked The Last Jedi quite a bit. I think that its writing was the strongest of the three. It had the most interesting things to say, and while I might have enjoyed watching The Force Awakens more, I was more interested in thinking about The Last Jedi. The biggest problem with the Palpatine twist is, of course, that it throws out every salient point TLJ was trying to make, which just feels... petty? TLJ exists, it is part of the anthology, and to pretend that most of it never happened and blatantly contradict both its reveals and themes, even if you (yes, you, JJ Abrams) didn’t like them, deprives the story of any chance of a coherent or satisfying arc. And that frustrates me, not just as a viewer, but as a writer. Because if there’s one thing that the writers involved in this movie should have learned from fanfiction, is that it is possible can spin gold from what you’re given, even if its imperfect, and elevate what existed before through your own creativity. But there was no effort made to reframe the unpolished elements of TFA and TLJ into a coherent three-part story. Instead, they went the route of ignoring what they didn’t like, and cherry-picking in what they did. Totally fine if this was a standalone episode, but it’s not. It’s part of a trilogy, and by throwing out the second act, you’ve gutted the entire heart of the story. *shakes my head*

There were definitely parts of this movie that I enjoyed. Every time the main trio was on screen together, it was a joy. All three of them were giving their all, and it showed. I liked both of the new characters introduced! The other former Stormtrooper, whose name I can’t recall, was vivacious and bright and I lit up whenever she was on screen, and I desperately wished the movie had taken the time for Finn and her to discuss their shared pasts more, because there some much interesting there. As much as I’m aware that it was likely a cynical tactic on the part of Disney to no-homo Poe, I didn’t hate his interactions with his old flame(?) at all, mostly because the relationship was ambiguous enough between them that it was just playful and fun, rather than wholly contrived. I actually found the shared visions between Rey and Kylo some of the most engaging scenes in the film - just visually and as a concept, the whole idea of trading physical objects between the two spaces? Pretty cool! 

But overall, I came out of this movie feeling like the best thing I got were a lot of details that I’m excited to see people incorporate into trio fic, and not much else. This is a movie that begs you not to think too deeply, lest it all fall apart at the seams, and just enjoy the spectacle of it all. And for me, who tends to get distracted during flashy action sequences and choppy edits, that didn’t leave me with much to chew on, or reasons to see it again. 

(PS. Rose, they did you so dirty, and I’m so, so sorry.)