#also something about a friendship betrayal hits way harder than one by a romantic partner in this case idk thinking about platonic

[t-u-i-t-c]

platonic tiremeter>>>

taiya viewing ishiro as a dependable and trustworthy friend who's been a great help in getting closer to his dream, and ishiro viewing taiya as his first friend that made him see the world in a new way and is scared to lose bc that's his first true friend and he doesn't know where he'd be without him.

[rainbow-femme]

I’ve seen those memes of like “Hannibal vs Hannibal if he had just asked Will on a date” with the second being much smaller

But god can you imagine if season one happened and they were dating, if he had asked Will out in the first one or two episodes? If he wasn’t doing those things to a client/friend but a romantic partner?

-Would it have changed his reaction to Bella and the cancer secret if he now had a romantic partner and that could keep such a secret from him?

-Hannibal’s reaction to Will being too busy for him because he’s going after the Chesapeake Ripper now that it’s not just a patient missing an appointment or a friend not staying to hang out but a romantic partner choosing something (technically also himself) over him?

-We saw how Hannibal reacted when it was possible Tobias killed Will Graham his friend, but if Tobias came in and insinuated he had just killed Will Graham his romantic partner? Hannibal realizing he actually values Will as a friend vs him realizing he values Will as a partner? The “I thought you were dead” scene?

-Hannibal telling Will his job will be the death of him and Will justifying it by saying he’s saving lives and Hannibal snapping back that he doesn’t care about their lives he cares about Will’s life? How much harder it would hit Will?

-Alana in the show saying she can’t be with Will while he’s in his current mental state while Hannibal uses that state to his advantage?

-The reveal that Will has had encephalitis and Hannibal has known and done nothing and is in fact allowing it to worsen? Basically making Will nothing more than a guinea pig and how much worse it is if they’re not just vague sorta friends but actively together?

-Will acknowledging he couldn’t be with Alana because of where he’s at mentally now being him using that on Hannibal and the way Hannibal would absolutely panic at the suggestion? The bad decisions he’d start making?

-Hannibal realizing Will is closing in on figuring out who he is and how this complicates him framing Will? Having to actually make a choice between his freedom and being able to possess Will?

-When Will thinks he killed Abigail and is in jail, he implies Alana is lucky they didn’t get together. What would he say to Hannibal? Would this be him breaking up with Hannibal for his own good? And Hannibal fucking losing it inside at the suggestion?

-Will realizing Hannibal is not only the killer but the person who framed him, the next level of betrayal that would come with that? The conversations between them as Will lets him know he knows and Hannibal tries to hide it?

-And then how it spills into season two, with how in the show Hannibal is trying to maintain a friendship only now he still wants to keep that defined romantic relationship with Will while Will is like “Are you crazy? Obviously this means we’re broken up” and Hannibal turning the “no we’re still friends” act into “No we’re still dating” and how sinister that is?

[somanyflowerss]

Dating in the broad sense

Journal entry I wrote back in July on defining 'dating' as a general term, reformatted to fit a post format:

Structurally one of the key things I've noticed separates dating from the average friendship is that while friendship tends to be built on trust, dating is often a commitment that the trust will eventually be built. In that sense there's a bit of magic to it, but I think that's also why friendship fallouts can hit as hard or harder than a (shorter term) romantic breakup might - it's a betrayal of the trust directly, as opposed to the commitment falling through. Obviously long term romantic relationships falling through have a comparable weight to them, but the way they're built up feels different.

At this point my definition of dating is just like. "A mutually committed relationship where the primary descriptor of every party within denotes this relationship in particular." People are friends with their partners, but in descriptions it's always 'partner' (or term of choice). It's denoted under a different category. This is probably pretty obvious when stated but I wanted to compare it to how standard friendships are viewed. Friendships may have more concrete definitions about how they're described between the person, but it's more rare for the person who's friends to have a different term described to them, unlike in dating/a more structured relationship

Similar to how you don't have to have empathy to be compassionate, you don't have to experience a certain type of attraction to be dating either. I think I see dating, structurally, sorta feels more action focused than feeling focused? I don't think it's impossible for an aro and alloro person to date each other and be happy I think it'll just look different from what other people might expect. Or maybe it won't. It's fine either way. Conversely there are plenty of cases where the attraction IS mutually reciprocated and the people aren't dating

This definition of dating probably catches within it a subset of QPRs (not all of them). But I guess that's because I'm more concerned about structure than specific feelings with this definition. Because that's what makes most sense to me to focus on and the best way to conceptualize them within my life.

I hope all this made sense! Most of this info probably seems obvious laid out but it was something I wanted to dissect a bit. This is my first long-form post so if there are better ways to format it let me know (Also if anyone has any thoughts (positive/negative/otherwise) I'd love to here them too)

[mxgilray]

I... have some thoughts on the Loki finale. It was not what I was expecting, but I'm still hopeful for season 2.

This felt like a meh finale, like how a lot of season finales felt in Spring 2020 when they unexpectedly quit filming and had to cut things short by a couple episodes thanks to the pandemic. Only this was the planned out finale, they should've given a bit more oomph. I'm quite a fan of exposition and character development usually, but all the dialog was centered on He Who Remains, so it felt like our main characters were just side pieces.

Plus, the final "cliffhanger" of Mobius not knowing Loki and the statue of HWR replacing the Time Keeper statues felt quite lackluster. Not sure how they could've made it hit harder, but it didn't deliver the "oh shit" vibes they intended, but maybe that's cuz Mobius not remembering Loki has been an expected plot line on tumblr for half the season so it wasn't a blindside.

I get the point of the Sylki kiss. From what I've seen on tumblr so far I feel like the nuance of Sylvies actions was lost to most people (both Sylki fans and antis just Didn't Get It). It wasn't a big declaration of love like the fans are grasping onto it as, and it wasn't shoving selfcest into the canon to keep the heternormativity like antis are accusing it of being; it was Sylvie using Loki's attachment to her to trick him. She needed Loki out of her way, and she knew the only way to get past him and get He Who Remains' tempad was through emotional distraction. She used his love against him and betrayed him, a kiss was simply the most efficient way to do it. I did a whole post last week about Sylvie's feelings towards Loki, but to sum up I firmly believe that while Loki harbors some romantic feelings for Sylvie, she feels strictly platonic towards him, but is very aware of his attraction. She took advantage of his care for her to get the upper hand during their fight. Heck she even foreshadowed it herself in ep 5. "There are more important things than friends" "like taking down the TVA" she told Loki that taking down whoever is behind the TVA comes before everything; it's priority #1 in her book, above friendship or love or trust. Loki proved that his priority now is the greater good of the universe not her revenge, so Sylvie has no use for him anymore (partners only when it's convenient, because she is a Loki and that's how emotionally stunted Lokis behave).

I would like to point out the irony of her being worried about Loki betraying her, only to turn around and betray him. It's in the realm of "people who cheat assuming their partner is cheating" / "not using a turn signal when changing planes to avoid being cut off because when you see someone else use their signal you tend to cut them off", it's assuming other people will behave like you do. Sylvie feared in ep 5 that Loki would betray her in the end because she knew if it came down to it she'd betray him. But the thing is, he's actually grown past that. Loki is finally thinking about how his actions can damage others, not just his own wants and needs. Sylvie saw this moral change in Loki, realized there was no chance of getting him back on the blind revenge boat, and decided to exploit his newfound selflessness and emotional attachment to get him out of her path.

This whole season Loki has been maturing emotionally and growing into the best, most heroic version of himself. Sylvie, on the other hand, still has that deceptive, selfish, can't trust anyone persona that every Loki develops to combat insecurity. She hasn't had the emotional growth needed to see the bigger picture, she's still trapped in her own self centered mindset. As such, she disregards the impact her betrayal will have on Loki, the impact killing HWR will have on the universe. She doesn't even take a beat to consider whether revenge is still the right path cuz she doesn't practice self reflection yet; revenge has always been the goal and she refuses to give herself a chance of changing her mind. I hope in season 2 she'll get some character growth, now that her 1 goal has been accomplished.

Now on to Mobius. I enjoyed his scenes, I wish we'd been shown more of what he did to reveal the truth to the rest of the TVA. Again, I feel like too much time was given to HWR's monologing and not enough was spent on the other characters so Mobius and B-15 got very little screen time to display their plan. I am happy Mobius got the opportunity to throw Ranslayers betrayal back in her face, and his attemp at attacking her...my boy you work a desk job you ain't no fighter, she used to work in the field collecting variants, you had no chance. Also, where the F did she go??? I kept expecting her to show up at the end of time but she didn't. Where did Miss Minutes send her??

I'm sad Mobius doesn't know Loki anymore, but I can't say I'm surprised. I've got a few different thoughts on what the heck is going on with him and the TVA:

Sylvie accidentally sent Loki way back to a time early on in the TVA before HWR created the Time Keepers for anonymity. As such, this is a past Mobius who has yet to meet Loki or even learn of Loki's existence. If this is the case, then I think Loki and Past!Mobius's interaction at the end of ep 6 will be the catalyst for him becoming a Loki expert. The 63 branching timelines Mobius and B-15 are discussing before Loki interrupts are from some currently unknown disaster that'll be a plot line in s2. (This is my least favorite theory, but nevertheless a possibility)

HWR was correct when he said that if Sylvie kills him and destroys the TVA then another variant of him will just start it all up again. This variant didn't care to remain anonymous, hence the big statue of him, but kept all the memory wiped variants working there. Because time is a chaotic bitch, the changeover from one HWR variant to another may have been near seamless at the TVA and just involved a quick memory wipe of anything relating to the Time Keepers, Loki and Sylvie, or knowledge that the TVA are all variants. The 63 branches may be thanks to something Renslayer is doing like killing all the HWR variants in existence in order to negate the need for the TVA. The branching could also be from Sylvie's revenge still, we have no idea how much time has passed between her killing HWR and a new HWR taking over so the branching she caused could still be an issue.

There have actually been multiple TVAs running simultaneously, each in their own multiverse. Each one employs memory wiped variants, each one is in charge of a certain subset of timelines, and all work under the one HWR. Sylvie used HWR's tempad to eject Loki back to the TVA, but she accidentally sent him to the TVA of a different multiverse not realizing that's a Thing. The 63 branching timelines Mobius and B-15 are discussing are indeed from Sylvie killing HWR, but there's only 63 as opposed to the countless we saw diverging from Sylvie's perspective because this TVA only sees branches on timelines within their own multiverse. Mobius doesn't know Loki because he isn't our Mobius and in the multiverse he works in maybe Loki's aren't as much of an issue because none of them ever escaped the TVA like Sylvie did (or none of them have Tom's face so he doesn't recognize him as a Loki). If this is the case, then Loki is gonna have to find his way back to his own multiverse in order to be reunited with his Mobius, and that could end up happening thanks to Renslayer. Miss Minutes gave her a file that I suspect only HWR should have access to. Maybe it was tempad coordinates for other multiverses? It took til the 31st century for the multiverses to be connected despite Tony figuring out time travel in the 21st century because travel between universes is much harder, maybe HWR is still the only one who knows how to do that. (If this theory is correct then all the time travel done during Endgame was through timelines within one multiverse) Also just thought of this but what if the reason there are so many extreme variations of loki that grew to adulthood is because the criteria of "sacred timeline" is different in each multiverse. Classic Loki and maybe President Loki and Kid Loki are from the same universe as MCU Loki, but red haired Loki, Croki, Boastful Loki, etc are all from other universes. Think about it, Classic Loki, 2012 Loki, and MCU Loki all have an exact identical path up until their nexus event (or death in MCU Loki's case). I think other than identifying as female, Sylvie's childhood was identical as well and that her nexus event was coming to terms with her adoption as a child, which erased the catalyst of 2011 Thor's plot and would've changed everything for her future path. Had her adoption remained a secret and she grew up on asgard, I believe her story would mirror MCU Loki's. It mildly hit me weird that there would be such wild variation amongst Lokis, even with him being a shapeshifter, because there's a rigid sacred timeline (that supposedly the MCU movies have all adhered to) and they all felt like too big of a divergence to have been left unchecked so long. If boastful Loki was telling the truth about getting all 6 infinity stones then he should've triggered a nexus event as soon as he got more than the 3 he is "supposed to" interact with, unless in his multiverse the sacred timeline criteria is different. Another theory: the agents employed in each TVA are from multiverses other than the one they're working in. It would make sense, keep them from running into their own past by fully detaching each agent from their home timeline/universe. So the Principal!Renslayer that B-15 found will never in any future become the TVA judge we know. The one we know maybe came from the universe Loki got sent to, and that's how the two of them will end up crossing paths again.

[lizacstuff]

Hi, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts about the last few episodes, you always make me feel better about things. Would you mind sharing more about the last episode, both in general and of course what you thought about Edser?

Thank you for the kind words, sorry this has taken so long to answer, I know you sent it days ago, but it’s been a busy week. As I said in another post, I actually really enjoyed this episode. I'll start with the other characters and then get to Eda and Serkan. 

First Seline. Of course, she beat everyone to the punch by getting to Serkan before Ferit and Ceren.  I suppose props to her for coming clean rather than allowing herself to be blackmailed, but man she was still a selfish snake until the end. I actually thought the most unfair thing was how she swept Ceren up in the people who had hid it from Serkan. What!?!?  Ceren found out the day before, told Ferit that as Serkan's attorney she couldn't keep it from him, called Serkan to let him know that Ferit had to talk to him, and didn't see Serkan until that meeting! What else could she have done? She would have been fully justified in defending herself to Serkan on that score. I wish she would have... except it's not the point of this show. The point of this show is Eda and Serkan, so to that end perhaps it was more important for Serkan to think his lawyer had hid it from him, and then for us and Eda to see him get over it quickly in order to illustrate how much more relaxed he is than when we met him. It plays into the themes of change, even if it's more about evolving. 

(much more under the cut)

Also, it's typical of Selin and her jealousy to try and get one last punch in and to drag the woman Ferit is now interested into the mess. I like how she tried to deliver a blow to Eda, and Eda was just like, "Whatever, do your worst" and Serkan, instead of getting mad which is what Selin wanted, just found a way to use it to flirt even harder. Then her maneuver with Balca was just gross. She knows as well as anyone that Serkan, despite his public notoriety, is a private person and here she is spilling every bit of his personal business to this woman they all met today. What a betrayal of personal trust. Good riddance to her. I mean, we'll all miss Bige, but I won't miss Selin. 

Honestly, I don't think Selin is evil, she's just so selfish, myopic and spoiled that she thinks her hurt trumps everyone else. She thinks she's entitled to lash out, give grief and visit pain upon people, because she was thwarted and didn't get what she wanted. I'm glad that Eda mentioned that it was Selin who sicced the press on them, so even if they didn't prove it, they know. I've seen some criticism that Selin wasn't punished enough for her sins, but I disagree. The holding was her inheritance, her history, her father helped start that company, and she ended by giving up her stake completely, she lost her fiance and the back-up life she imagined with him, she lost Serkan and the life she imagined with him, she also lost Serkan's decades-long friendship, she lost her job, she's leaving the country. That's a lot of losing. She's hit emotional rock bottom, perhaps she'll be able to do some soul searching and figure out why she lost everything (except her money) as she starts over?

The other goodbye this episode was Alptekin, and another good riddance here. His interaction with Aydan was cruel. That's how he ends a 30 year marriage? Yikes. At least it sounds like he left everything to Aydan and Serkan and is not trying to take houses (Serkan needs the Summer House and Mountain House for sexy rendezvous reasons!) or the stake in the holding. His goodbye with Serkan was thankfully better. I mean, he can't redeem himself as a father at this point, but at least that conversation didn't make it worse. I'm glad he admitted to Serkan that he was not a good father, but also went to lengths to say that unlike him, Serkan would be a good father. Serkan would probably say that his father's opinion doesn't matter, but I think it really does, particularly on that subject. It's very plausible to me that Serkan has fears about being like his dad, and specifically being an unloving, perfection-requiring, absentee father like his dad was. It's important for him to hear that it doesn't have to be like that, hopefully Serkan internalized that they are very different men. It was also nice of him to sort of bless his future with Eda, and even after Serkan said they would want nothing to do with him, say he would still always be there if Serkan needed him. It was as good as could be expected as far as the impact it would have on Serkan's emotional state. 

Didn't see much of Ayfer in this one, which is fine by me. I mentioned it last week, but WOW, what they've done to the hair, makeup and costuming is something else.  For a good part of the series her style was kind of flowy and boho influenced and it worked. She had a bit of a relaxed cool vibe to her. Now they're styling her like an uptight, 90-year-old woman! That green dress was so ugly and WTF was that lampshade on her head?  This is a beautiful woman surrounded by fashionable, 20-something girls, how is she getting more dowdy and frumpy by the episode?

I think I'm going to like Divorce!Aydan. She was such an arrogant character when the show began, it's nice to see her show both warmth and vulnerability.  You could see she was nervous about running for the head of the foundation, which I wouldn't have expected from the woman we met early on in the series. She's been a joy the last few episodes and this was no different. And I will love her forever for staying true to Eda, and asking for her when Balca offered to be by her side. The Eda/Aydan relationship really warms my heart and I love that she needs her future daughter-in-law. Though I did feel for Seyfi when she didn't let him into the group hug. Poor Seyfi, he's as much a part of the family as anyone! Let him hug!

So, I know I've been very lukewarm towards the idea of Engin and Piril, it's just that they're such opposites it's hard to see how it will work.  And they're not opposites like Eda and Serkan are opposites. Eda and Serkan are the kind of opposites that yin/yang each other, and you can easily see them living in harmony, while Engin and Piril seem like the kind that just have incompatible outlooks and lifestyles. However, I do admit that I watched the proposal with a big grin on my face and I might have clapped when she said yes. I guess they at least partially won me over. Engin really tried to go big with his proposal, and if a proposal is going to be played for laughs I'm fine with it being anybody but Edser.  As a side note, I hope when Serkan asks Eda to marry him it's just the two of them, I like a private, emotional proposal for my favs.   So on to everyone's favorite new character, Balca. Boy, what an interesting one she is. Seems to me if you start a new job and decide you're going to go after your boss romantically before you even meet him because an astrologer gave you two initials... you might need professional help. I'm still not over the fact that this piece of work watched Serkan and Eda's sexually-charged slowdance at the party and still had the balls to show up at his house later that night. So far she's shaping up to be a rather tragic figure. Can you imagine being that desperate or having so little self-respect or dignity? It's impossible for her to have real feelings for someone she's never met, so she's risking humiliation, hurting people, and being fired because she's just that desperate to have a warm body in her life?  Yikes. That is pathetic. I'd feel sorry for her if she had shown any sign that she gave a damn that Serkan was already in a relationship for all intents and purposes. Her downfall is going to be SWEET. 

Me thinks she'll be just about as successful at driving a wedge between Eda and Serkan as those who came before her.  Including Aydan, Ayfer, Kaan, Efe and Selin. But hopefully her insidious presence will drive Eda to decide what she wants and to go and get her man. 

LOVED all the Eda/Serkan we got this episode. Starting from the elevator and that kiss. From spoilers, most of us knew the slap was coming, but it still was jarring when it happened. I really don't love any sort of hitting, or any violent act between partners, but I won't ding the characters for it here too much. Eda was vulnerable, discombobulated, and in an emotional whirl. She's trying to maintain distance and force him to maintain distance, all the while being drawn to him on a primal level. I think she slapped him because she thought that's what she should do. They're not officially in that place, they'd established he would be punished if he purposefully broke the contract, and she was vulnerable because of the claustrophobia. As for Serkan, I also don't ding him for doing it under what might not be considered optimal conditions. He knows how she feels, where her heart is, and she was willingly being very intimate there as she nuzzled into his neck. Also he was right that it definitely distracted her and calmed her down. I think she completely forgot where she was. 

That being said, the stones on that guy to kiss her again! I love it. He just smirked through her whole angry tirade, like he knew exactly where she was coming from. She was more putting on an act of being angry, because that's what she thought she should do, than actually being angry. That's the confidence of a man who knows exactly where he stands (for all those who get upset that Eda hasn't told Serkan how she feels, this is proof that he really, really knows).   For me, this episode was all about Eda's resolve crumbling, but her not being completely ready to let it go. So each time she found herself enjoying time with him and being vulnerable, she would retreat and try to build back up that wall. And she failed spectacularly every time. I think that's why we saw her go from putty in his hands one minute to evoking the contract the next, back to putty. She's trying to stay strong and not let him in, but she just can't do it and doesn't really want to do it.

While they were at lunch she tried to maintain distance, she was a bit snarky and trying to resist his flirting. But once they finished lunch and were on the balcony, she couldn't even pretend to maintain an air of indifference. She was so pleased when he said that his entire life has been a rainbow since meeting her. No pretense, she couldn't hide it. Nor could she hide her pleasure in him turning off his phone in order to have lunch with her. 

Deep down, Eda knows it's only a matter of time until they reunite. I think she just needs to be ready to let go of him breaking up with her before she lets down her walls. But when something happens, she's there. One minute they're engaging in pointed banter about her potential punishment, the next she hears that Aydan is not doing well and she's right by his side. No question, no hesitation. When push comes to shove, they're already a family. 

I can just imagine what it does to Serkan to watch Eda be there for his mom. With the agoraphobia I think Serkan took a lot of that burden onto himself, with really only Seyfi to help. That must have felt so isolating. But now Eda is right there with him, and they're a team, he has someone to rely on and share the burden with, it must feel so good. 

You gotta hand it to Serkan Bolat with the whole three wishes thing. My dude is ingenious. Instead of being upset that she kept something from him, or being passive aggressive about it, he figures out the course of action that will give him something to flirt with her about and excuses to spend time together. Also it gives him the opportunity to ask for the one thing he wants most from her, unconditional trust. Because once she's there, there will no longer be any reason for their separation. It's pretty much the cornerstone of everything. Not to say she doesn't trust him as a person, she does, but I think she's trepidatious about trusting his feelings for her. Trusting that he won't break up with her again, or go back to that inconsistent behavior that she's talked about several times. It makes sense that there is still lingering emotional fallout from the breakup. 

"Are you available?" "For you, always." Oh, sweet, sweet Robot. Enough can not be said about how he can make the smallest interaction into something so romantic. He was equally sweet when having her guess the number one thing that benefits him. You know she just melts inside every time he says something like that, and the harder she tries not to show it, the harder she melts. 

One thing I didn't get is Eda being a bit relaxed when it came to trusting Efe. Just the day before she learned that Efe tried to blackmail Selin for her shares, and Eda seemed taken aback at the revelation. However, when they discuss him I don't feel like she validates Serkan's concerns as much as maybe she should.  I'm going to chalk it up to Eda being a bit off-kilter from Serkan asking her if she wants to work with him more closely. Perhaps she wants or needs that buffer of working for his partner instead of him, so she's not going to poke holes in her situation just yet, even if she realizes there is reason for concern. I did like that she reassured him that if Serkan trusted her, it would be fine. That seems like it will be key when Babbaan arrives. 

Is Eda the cutest when she's jealous? I think she's the cutest. So does Serkan. He was enjoying that so much. And I just about died when she scooted her chair over to where she was almost sitting on top of him. The fact that Balca was Eda's own doing, a consequence of some irrational emotions, makes the whole situation even funnier. Serkan can't be dinged at all for choosing her. 

I will be watching TV a long time before I get over the fact that this show found a way to re-enact the scene from Ghost. Thank you writers, producers and creatives! I keep saying that I love how this show rarely misses an opportunity, the shippy content and visuals are second to none. The things this show is able to do on such a tight timeline and I'm sure, budget is impressive. I give most of the credit to the actors and their chemistry, but that was also beautifully shot. What's almost better is when they return to the office all hot and bothered and flustered. These two kids are going to have to fall into bed sooner, rather than later otherwise the sexual tension is literally going to kill them.  

Speaking of UST, they wound themselves up again when they decided to slow dance in front of their friends and coworkers. Besides Balca, is anyone in their orbit still wondering what's going on with them? Together? Broken up? In-between? Are they still office gossip, or is everyone just like "Eh, that's just Eda and Serkan" and they're all expecting to come in the office one morning to find that they’ve eloped. Along those lines, where was Ayfer? She gets so upset at the idea of them even talking... did she even notice them draped all over each other having eye-sex while dancing? I mean I didn't want her to have some over-the-top reaction but if she had it would have been in line with how she's been the last few episodes. The final scene was so damn uncomfortable to watch, but I'm very hopeful this storyline is going to clarify a few things for Eda and we’ll reap those rewards. All in all, I really enjoyed this episode, and can't wait for the next two! 

[me-and-my-gaster]

the swapfell sansy boy from your au!! :D bc i wanna know More About Him!!

Ahhh! You wanna hear more about Chief? Well, then you're in for a treat! I will keep this under the cut because I’m about to ramble about my boy!!!!

My favorite thing about my own boy??? Are you sure I can pick only one thing??? I don’t think I can... but I’ll try!

He is loyal. I know this might seem weird for a person who started a fucking revolution in the first place but that is true. Despite being on the opposing side, he would prefer to spare Alphys and the Ice Queen. The first one because of their friendship throughout the years and Toriel because... well... she is his queen, and regicide was never in his mind. The loyalty goes also for his subordinates. Once being under his orders marks you as his responsibility and he would go to great lengths to keep his comrades safe and sound. Of course... he would prefer this kind of loyalty went the other way too. He values this trait in everybody and betrayal is something that would always hit him hard.

Can’t say anything about the least favorite thing about him, because well... he’s my boy! But I do have a flaw for him that I can use in this stead.

He is... extremely impulsive. For most of the time, he doesn’t seem like it, being low maintenance and chill, but when something irks him or makes him angry, he just blows up uncontrollably - you could call his temper brittle. He rarely thinks straight during his fits of temper tantrums so thankfully they don’t happen too often but... it usually happens when the most damage can be done. Thankfully he can clean up his own mess after him but sometimes it just makes things harder for him.

The other thing that derives from this is that over time, he’s way more ready to settle for collateral damage during the revolution. The faster things end and go back to normal, the fewer people will suffer, right? Probably wrong but being trapped in his role, he had to choose a tactic that fits his capabilities best. Maybe someday his temper tantrum would make the Exile (this world’s Asgore) change his mind and try to lead to reclaim his throne. Who knows?

Favorite line...

“I’m too lazy for that.”

It’s the line he says to Alphys way before the revolution starts and while he still has his hand. She was nagging him to know why he doesn’t try to become the Captain of the Royal Guard since he has everything to get this position - from skills to the ears of his subordinates. He even purposefully neglects some of the duties, not to look too good, which didn’t escape Alphys’ attention. He doesn’t want to be a Captain, despite clearly being fit for leading. This line turns out to be quite ironic later - with him being the leader for the revolution and feeling doubt about his choice back then. Maybe if he did become the Captain, none of this would happen?

Ahh, my brOTP with Chief would be him and Undies. She is like a sister to him, quite literally. They grew up together and are very close. Like siblings, they annoy the hell out of each other but when something bad happens, they always have their backs. Chief, being the main prankster in the family, usually is the one who annoys Undies the most but it’s all in good nature - it actually helps her to stop working for at least a couple of minutes. Undies, in turn, is capable of calming him down, even if it means wrangling him to the floor or holding him in the air until he tires himself. They work well together and she immediately took his side when the revolution started. Chief also goes easier on Alphys because of her, knowing that his sister has feelings for the Captain of the Royal Guard. All in all, Undies is rude, Chief is an asshole. They love each other very much.

OTP... might be hard to come up with. I didn’t think about shipping him with anybody, especially since he does everything not to get romantically involved. It’s because of his skewed view of himself - wouldn’t quite call it self-esteem issues but he doesn’t think he’s fit to be a supportive partner in a romantic relationship. He is aware of his impulsiveness and role in the revolution... and having a hook for his hand makes him think he’s unable to give a proper hug. Maybe something a good ship could fix?

Well... nOTP for one would be with Undies, that’s for sure. She’s like a sister to him and he would never think of her that way. I guess Alphys and Toriel are also out of the question, because of their indirect role in hurting his brother. This is not something he would forget and forgive. Can’t say much about other possibilities because, like I said, no shipping schemes were made for this bean.

Random headcanon time!

He loves playing cards. Really loves. His close relations with his subordinates happened just because he joined them to play quite regularly and shuffling through his well-used deck is what calms him down when he’s nervous or antsy. Somehow, he managed to learn to use the cards despite his hook, but he still struggles occasionally  - it’s hard to hold your hand and draw a card at the same time.

Unpopular opinion... uh...

Well, he is, basically, a SF Sans but his core characteristics are closer to the original Sans than to the swapped one, so this interpretation differs from the usual take on this AU. He is lazy, very social and loves pranking people. He also half-asses his duties when possible, not really wanting to get a promotion and keeping his room untidy most of the time. It does change for him when the revolution starts. But that’s just the fallout of his very poor and impulsive decision. He would very much prefer to go back to the way things were... before the revolution and before his brother was hurt. Does that count?

A song I associate with him? How about... a whole friggin playlist??? I’ll pick only a few songs, because it’s over an hour long, really.

Untraveled Road - Thousand Foot Krutch

Throne - Bring Me The Horizon

Cut the Cord - Shinedown

White Rabbit - Egypt Central

So Cold - Breaking Benjamin

Lullaby - Hypnogaja

Bullets - Archive

As for the favorite picture, I guess the one where he’s all unhappy with his hook is my fave because it shows his vulnerable side a little - he doesn’t hide behind his jokester mask and doesn’t blow up in anger either.

Answering the ask thingie here.

[vmheadquarters]

ASK THE FANDOM--RESPONSES

Here’s this week’s Ask the Fandom question, from a lovely follower who probably didn’t realize just how popular/ controversial this question would be!

Do you think Veronica was justified in breaking up with Logan for sleeping with Madison? My own two cents: I feel like Logan gets a pass from most people on this but I have a harder time with it. He had to have known how much Veronica hated Madison and the reasons why. I assume that would have been discussed when LoVe were together. I’m with V that it seemed to be a pretty pointed choice of sex partner.

And here’s what all of you had to say:

@heavenli24-- Do you think Veronica was justified in breaking up with Logan for sleeping with Madison? For me, it seems kind of like a ‘we were on a break’ Friends scenario. Veronica and Logan were not together when he slept with Madison and he had been the one to break up with her, so technically it wasn’t cheating and at the time he was essentially free to sleep with whoever he liked - so I don’t think Veronica has a leg to stand on on the cheating front. Of course, though, you have the emotional factor to consider: - the fact that he slept with someone else when they’d only just broken up and  it was clear he still loved her (the Friends scenario) - the fact that Madison was the girl he slept with, when he knew of the bad blood between her and Veronica - the fact that he didn’t tell the whole truth when Veronica asked him if he’d hooked up with someone else while they were apart. Taking that into account, I think that Veronica was right to be angry with him over it - mainly for the omission of the truth - and also that she was justified in feeling hurt over it. For Logan’s part, I like to think it wasn’t a deliberate thing, that he didn’t make an informed decision to seek out and sleep with Madison - I’m picturing a scenario where he was drunk and upset and Madison took advantage of it, knowing what the consequences might be. Having said all that though, I do think it was something LoVe could have worked through and that Veronica could have come to terms with and forgiven him for eventually. I also think that if Logan had been honest in the first place and admitted what happened rather than having it come out later, they could have worked through it without all the added drama… I think what sealed it for Veronica was that a) Logan didn’t tell her when she asked and b) she had to find out from Madison herself instead

@missismess-- I generally agree with your two cents. The great thing about Veronica Mars is that I empathize 100 % with the protagonist, even if I don’t agree with her. I feel for her so strongly that I absolutely understand her reaction to Logan’s choice of sex partner. I would have done the same thing. From a rational standpoint I also understand that the slight really isn’t the end of the world. And I can see how Logan would have made the supposedly drunken decision to self sabotage by fucking the person most likely to wreck his life even worse - right up his ally. But emotionally? I’m with Veronica.

@abeautifuldarkness-- It's a little less we 'were on a break' and more 'we were broken up.' And by that account, the latter does not imply/expect future reconciliation. It was a surprising treat that they did get back together. While I feel terrible for Veronica, because I definitely have one or two 'Madisons' in my own life, I can't help but slightly side more with Logan. Asshole move? definitely. But is it out of character? no. Rich boy getting wasted, having empty, meaningless sex to fill a painful void: very Logan-esque, especially when he, as Jason Dorhring puts it, plummets into lows in his life. I think Veronica was justified to make him suffer for it, and even cubing Madison's car, but long-term, serious relationships take more than 24 hours to work out, even when your very core is hurt, especially when the whole thing is on a technicality like that of a hiatus in a relationship's timeline. I speak from experience, and while I can see that V & L don't have the 7- year experience I have how, I know that had myself and my boyfriend didn't really push through those shitty painful moments even in our fresh days of naivety, we wouldn't have survived either. So maybe I'm biased, but I half hope/half expect Veronica and Logan to push through the same way. So my opinion/answer is that she excused in the emotional sense, but not justified. What makes it all worse is that small fact that she doesn't completely listen to Logan's message. If it wouldn't have changed her mind, he at least deserved the closure, a last fight or her listening to (all) is words, or something. I love V but I expect her to at least have the maturity to do that, and in in this episode she doesn't. Such a painful moment in their timeline either way.

@jennydb-blog-- I am not sure he realizes how much she hates him. I actually dislike more that he is still friends with Dick, who basically set up Veronica's rape at the hands of Beaver. But I am not sure how much she has told him about that. Personally, I think Veronica is overreacting. But I am not someone who generally see why people are mad about friends hooking up with someone you dated three years ago either. Water under the bridge.

@addicted2love2015-- Do you think Veronica was justified in breaking up with Logan for sleeping with Madison? I very much understand Veronica being upset to the point of breaking up and leaving the scene in a hurry. She was lied to by the guy she loved, who was the same guy who repeatedly begged her to trust him. She was also completely humiliated in possibly the worst way she could imagine, also by the guy she loved and who was supposed to love her. Even if they weren’t together at the time of the act, does love and respect for the other just fly out the window the minute they say, “It’s over”? Did the friendship, separate from the romantic relationship, count for anything? After all, Logan had as much said that he was still her friend and that he would be there if she needed anything. Friends don’t hurt their friends on purpose. The on purpose part is Veronica’s viewpoint, but mine too. I agree with Veronica when she says that he can’t say that he didn’t think of her and how much it would hurt her sometime before or during the act. The sex with her enemy and then the lying and then the excuse of “you didn’t deserve to know” would feel like betrayal of the worst kind. Even though Veronica was justified in breaking up with Logan, I think she should have talked about the Madison-thing with him after some time went by of her trying to process and the pain not being so fresh. The bottom line is she loved him and really didn’t want to be without him. She should have put her big girl panties on and addressed it head-on in order to move past it. I think she wanted to, but by the time she was ready, he had moved on to Parker. Again, I think her feeling would have been Parker was another way to purposely hurt her, whether it was or not. I do think it is something that they could have moved past if Parker hadn’t entered the scene. It could have even served as a positive catalyst to address many of the other problems in their relationship, if they had let it. Interestingly, @brittany4824 and I just posted a story about a week ago that addresses this very subject. If you haven’t read it yet, go read http://archiveofourown.org/works/9686306 .

@fatherjerusalem-- Well right off the bat, let’s just say that Veronica is absolutely able to break up with Logan for any reason at all, or no reason whatsoever (and vice versa). She (if she were a real human being) needs no justification in ending a relationship. That being said, I do think that one of Veronica’s character traits is that with the people she cares about most (Keith and Logan, for example) she’s MUCH harsher on their… bad choices…. than she is on people who she may like, she may enjoy spending time with, but they don’t MEAN as much to her. She’s not as disappointed when Weevil does something bad because she doesn’t have those same expectations from him. So when Logan - who was free and clear to do anything with anyone he wanted to, let’s not forget - slept with Madison, the combination of her expectations for Logan and her hatred of Madison hit that boiling point. Just look at her reaction to the whole Duncan/Kendall did-they-didn’t-they (they did) when she was actually dating Duncan. She didn’t care about that nearly as much, because Duncan didn’t mean nearly as much to her. As for Logan’s side of it, he didn’t outright lie (yes, not naming the person he slept with was a lie of omission, but he did admit to sleeping with someone that meant less than nothing to him) and I will flat out fight anyone who said he did it to hurt Veronica or to get back at Veronica. And it’s not a Ross-and-Rachel-we-were-on-a-break type situation. They were flat out broken up. So… I give Logan a pass here, because I don’t think he did anything wrong. And with him “having to have known” how much Veronica hated Madison and why… I don’t necessarily agree. I think he, obviously, knew that Veronica hated Madison but not necessarily the why (which, to be fair, while Madison WAS a terrible person, having her being blamed by Veronica for her rape while Dick gets a free pass is just… is flat out wrong. she’s mad at Madison because Madison DIDN’T get raped and that’s… not cool at all) and I don’t think Logan went out specifically to nail Madison. I think it was probably a drunken party and she came on to him while he was weak and he had a moment that he immediately wished he could take back. It happens. So yes, I think Veronica was justified - because she doesn’t NEED to justify her actions for us, and no I don’t think Logan did it on purpose or set out to hurt Veronica. I don’t blame either of them for what they did. I blame the writers for taking the perfect breakup in Spit & Eggs, trashing it an episode later, throwing them back together for two episodes, and then breaking them up again just so Veronica could be “right” - which was the theme of season three. Just terrible hack-y writing. The Spit & Eggs breakup had so much potential for Veronica’s character growth, but… can’t make Veronica out to be not 100% right 100% of the time. Season three is the worst.

@mysilverylining-- Ohhh boy.  This debate usually gets interesting.   I can understand and empathize with Veronica’s heartbreak over Aspen.  I imagine it would hurt like a bitch knowing that the person you hate had their hands all over the person you love.  I’d probably want to throw up, too.  I also feel for Logan, because he did something stupid and impulsive that ended up ruining everything.  I don’t believe for a second that he did it to hurt Veronica or was even thinking about Veronica when it happened (Kendall, is another story altogether). With that said, I know people don’t like comparing the actions of one character to those of another, but I do think it’s relevant.  There’s a strong case of “Do what I say, not what I do.” when it comes to Veronica and Logan.   After Weevil burned down Logan’s house and tortured him (she at least knew about the fire), Veronica arranged not one, but TWO jobs for him.  Blatantly showing Logan that his enemies aren’t her enemies.  On top of that, although Duncan wasn’t Logan’s enemy, he was the person who would hurt him the most to see Veronica with two weeks after their breakup.  So I guess I feel like Veronica doesn’t really have a case for demanding Logan’s loyalty two months after their breakup, when she hasn’t demonstrated that kind of loyalty or sensitivity herself.

@catalina-infanta-- Also, Im not really all that convinced that Veronica was very upfront with Logan about her feelings about Madison (and why). She is often not very communicative.

@kerali-- I’m going to try to keep this to two or three points.  First, I think Logan’s motivation for sleeping with Madison had nothing to do with Veronica.  Madison was part of Logan’s social group and had been for years.  They all went to Aspen for Christmas and all likely had partied together for a long time.  For Logan, she was there and likely the aggressor for a very drunk and depressed Logan who had just broken up with the woman he loved right before the holidays, which he likely hated at that point.  The reason I think this is because he didn’t do anything with it to hurt her, which he was more than capable of doing.  I don’t think he ever was in relationship with anyone to hurt Veronica, but he had been willing to use his relationships with other women to push her buttons (Kendall especially). Veronica compartmentalizes to deal with all of the trauma that had happened to her and when Logan did try to talk about Shelly’s party, she shut it down and said she forgave him, but really she didn’t deal with it at all.  As far as Logan likely knew, she was drugged and had sex with Duncan, until Cassidy’s revelation.  It’s unlikely that she would have opened up enough to him for him to understand exactly how everything happened, so while he know’s Madison is awful and that Veronica hates her, it’s unlikely that he knew everything that was done and likely sees her as being about the same as Shelly, Caitlyn, and other 09′er girls that were mean in high school.  I think Madison had it out for Veronica because she’s an awful, entitled person that was also pretty jealous of Veronica dating Duncan and Logan.  Veronica also never told Logan exactly how she found out it was Madison. Veronica doesn’t need justification to break up with Logan.  She found herself in a relationship that she didn’t want to be in and at that point, they were likely doomed anyway.  They got together but didn’t deal with their own issues or what broke them up.  Veronica wants control (in her words, intimacy) and Logan is too dangerous because he sees her.  She can’t share herself with him, because she knows that he knows her and can get through her walls that have allowed her to survive.  For him to know her secrets too, would give him too much control and she can’t deal with that.  And it was best for Logan too.  He needed validation and to be loved, and Veronica couldn’t do that for him, as much as she talked about intimacy, she never told him she loved him.  Again, it was too much for either of them and they didn’t have the support from others or authority figures who should have been the ones to teach them how to deal with the trauma in their lives, or who could teach them to be an equal partner in a relationship.

@winifredburkle-- I want to thank @fatherjerusalem for everything he said here and commend him for saying it so eloquently because when I read this ask the fandom two hours ago I went into a fucking rage blackout because I can not believe it’s 2017 and yet we’re still beating this dead horse. Fact is, as Jer said above, Veronica can break up with Logan for whatever damn reason she pleases whether it be because she suspects him of murder, thinks his actions of late have been deplorable, or yeah because he slept with someone (when they weren’t together) and she doesn’t think she can get past it. That’s her right within the relationship, just like Logan had every right to break up with her in 3x09. Now, as for this “Logan intentionally hurting Veronica” bullshit it’s just that– bullshit. Let’s break it down: 1. First off, and I know this might seem shocking to some of y’all, but Logan’s world doesn’t actually revolve around Veronica. Expecting him to sit down and map out how his actions/choices might directly affect her at any given point is ludicrous. (Same with Veronica sitting down and weighing out how Logan might react. It’s not realistic).   2. People like to bring up the fact that Logan knows Veronica was roofied “by Madison” and that he should therefore hate Madison on Veronica’s behalf, but let’s look a closer look at the events surrounding 1x21. • Veronica accuses Logan of maybe having raped her and says that if it was him she’ll make him pay. • Veronica then finds out from Carrie Bishop that it was Duncan and she has her confrontation with Duncan. Veronica immediately goes to Wallace and tells him everything. • Veronica goes home, invites Logan over, tells him she’s sorry and tells him everything that happened. At this point Veronica doesn’t know that Madison passed her the roofied drink at the party, so it’s not something she can share with Logan. • They go to Logan’s, the surprise party happens, Veronica finds out that Madison passed her the roofied drink. Then her and Logan make out and she finds the camera in poolhouse, assumes the worst, and splits. • AKA WE NEVER FUCKING SEE VERONICA TELL LOGAN THAT MADISON IS  “””””RESPONSIBLE””””” FOR VERONICA DRINKING THE GHB SO HOW THE FUCK • like..i guess maybe everyone is assuming that she told Logan at some point after? but like?? when? when she was accusing him of murder, when he was in jail, when he was on trial, when he was burning down buildings and lying to her and she was breaking up with him???? • Also, so Veronica tells Logan that it was a misunderstanding between her and Duncan that night and then she starts dating Duncan again like…a month ish or less after she breaks up with Duncan. Also, as someone pointed out on a different thread responding to this ask, Veronica is cordial(ish) towards Dick even after knowing his role in what happened to her, and at school she doesn’t act any more or less ~bitchy~ towards Madison either. So all this almost super sounds like…Logan had no fucking idea Veronica hated Madison as much as did (based on her behavior and the fact that we never see her tell him about Madison’s “role” at shelley’s !!!) so at the he most just thought they didn’t get along - if he fucking bothered to think about it and why??? would he – , which largely didn’t matter because Veronica had like….five or less people she actually considered her friend during high school and fucking Logan wasn’t even one of those people most days. • 3. When Veronica is forcing/cajoling/whatever fucking word you want to use for it information out of Logan during Poughkeepsie, Tramps, and Thieves, Logan is visibly uncomfortable and calls Veronica out on her shit several times. (Veronica insists she wants to know so they can be more open with each other and Logan essentially says that if she wants them to get to that place she should let it go). When he admits he slept with someone during their break up he uses the term “horrible girl” and says that the unnamed girl “meant less than nothing to him”. He also goes on to say that “he couldn’t regret it more”  and “thinking of it makes him ill”. He’s talking about Madison here, and he isn’t saying this stuff because Veronica knows he’s talking about Madison and he’s trying to save face/avoid a fight. He’s saying it because that’s how he feels. Sounds 0% to me like someone who was ~intentionally trying to hurt her~ • 4. Also!!!! in Poughkeepsie, Tramps, and Thieves– Veronica forgives Logan right away for what happened and says she loves him anyway. It’s only when she finds out about Madison that she gets disheartened and breaks up with him. That CLEARLY SHOWS that this isn’t a Veronica/Logan issue, it’s a Veronica/Madison issue. This is also emphasized in the episode where Veronica has Weevil steal Madison’s car– that episode shows that Veronica is only mad at Madison (because her issues with her rose to the surface again)– not that she’s mad at Logan. • 5. and THIS “I blame the writers for taking the perfect breakup in Spit & Eggs, trashing it an episode later, throwing them back together for two episodes, and then breaking them up again just so Veronica could be “right”” I think Veronica’s reaction to finding out Logan slept with Madison directly illustrates the point Logan was making when he broke up with her, saying that he doesn’t measure up to the person she wants him to be. It’s a shame that the writers didn’t focus on what Logan was saying, and how Veronica finally maybe recognizes what Logan was getting at, and had them work on themselves as individuals. If they had framed “Madison-gate” with that that lens (and not immediately thrown Logan and Veronica into relationships right after???) this conversation probably wouldn’t cause rage blackouts and also I don’t think we’d still be having it. • TL;DR– let Logan Echolls fucking live!!!!

@petpluto-- The thing with this is - Weevil is Veronica’s friend. It is a more complex relationship between the three of them, because Weevil is one of the people who was there for Veronica when people like Logan weren’t, someone who will come and get her if she calls, no questions asked. It isn’t as cut and dried as, “Veronica got two jobs for Logan’s enemy”. It’s Veronica got two jobs for her friend, who has a hate-semi-hate relationship with Logan. Veronica is loyal to both of them, in different ways. Same with Duncan. He was Veronica’s first boyfriend; he was stable when Logan was not. It isn’t a guy she started dating knowing it would hurt Logan. It’s a guy she started dating again, separate from Logan. Logan had no prior loyalty to Madison, not in the way Veronica does to Weevil and to Duncan. That doesn’t mean that he was intentionally hurting Veronica, but I don’t know what enemies of Logan’s Veronica prioritized above him that she didn’t already have a prior relationship with, and loyalty to, herself. And Veronica kept socializing with Dick, probably at least partially because she recognized that Logan had that same kind of loyalty to him as she had to Weevil.

@mysilverylining-- Don’t get me wrong.  I don’t disagree with any of that.  I’ll defend Veronica’s right to date Duncan post-breakup as much as I’ll defend Logan’s right to sleep with Madison.  I’ll defend her right to find employment for Weevil.  My post above wasn’t about placing fault on Veronica for those actions.   At the same time, Veronica showed zero sensitivity to Logan’s feelings while dating Duncan.  Specifically, I’m referring to the PDA behavior in FBLA class that would have been inappropriate in a school setting even if the broken-hearted ex wasn’t sitting in the same class.  That had to feel like a slap in the face to Logan after the sneaking-around in S1 in the name of protecting Duncan’s feelings.  And we know Logan felt like nothing in her eyes, because he had to ask her to pretend her dog’s life was at stake.   Again, I don’t feel that Veronica was obligated to make concessions to Logan’s feelings after their breakups, or to tiptoe around the way she had with Duncan.   But after learning about Madison, Veronica acted as if Logan had broken some kind of code.  She spent S2 demonstrating to Logan how very little he mattered to her post-breakup (not her actual feelings, obviously).  So for her to expect Logan to base his choices on how they might affect her in S3 seems unfair and hypocritical.  Do as I say, not as I’ve done, basically.

@notaparkerfan:   If Logan couldn’t get past what Weevil did to him, and that Veronica was still helping Weevil, he would be completely justified in breaking up with. He would not be entitled to retaliation on her for disloyalty while trying to be in a relationship with her.

I’m not advocating or supporting retaliation in the least.  I want these two happy, communicating, and in love.  

I’m just not impressed with Veronica’s handling of the situation.  The pain and nausea I can understand.  I can understand her asking for time to come to grips with the idea.  But I would have appreciated some self-reflection in the situation. As far as Weevil goes, pre-existing friendship or not, this guy tortured her boyfriend, and burned down his home including every last trace of his dead mother.  Maybe that’s not a friendship deal-killer in Veronica’s book.  I’d question what it says that it isn’t, while at the same time, I’m glad they remained friends. But Madison’s actions at Shelly’s party, are honestly more defendable than Weevil’s.  So again, she expects a loyalty from Logan that she isn’t willing to give.   Honestly, it would have been better all around if it was Dick who’d gotten between them.  They could have created a character-based storyline, if she’d told Logan about Dick’s responsibility in her rape, and he’d had to choose between his only loyal friend and his girlfriend.

@petpluto-- In season 2, Veronica broke up with Logan because he refused to stop his retaliatory actions against the 02ers, and took his inability to stop as an indication that he didn’t love her. Not like she loved him. Logan wasn’t obviously broken hearted - not to her, anyway. She didn’t get to see the puppy dog looks we did. She didn’t see him pining. Which is one of the issues we run into in discussions such as this (like when Logan is waiting innocently at the yacht for their date in season 1). Just because we know his true feelings doesn’t mean she does. So, with Duncan, he’s not her broken hearted ex. He’s her ex, who - for her own insecurities, her own issues, the fact that he is good at hiding his own emotions, etc. - doesn’t give a damn that she’s dating Duncan again. So, I would be more inclined to agree with you if Logan were obviously pining. But he isn’t, because that’s not who he is. And since that’s not who he is, I can’t blame Veronica for taking him at face value and acting accordingly. The only thing I do wish had been different about the Logan-Veronica-Duncan situation is I do wish Veronica had asked Duncan to try to talk to him, to see if his oldest and best friend could help get him on the right track even if she couldn’t. But even there, I understand her pulling completely away and entering into a self-protective mode. I completely agree about Dick, though. It would have made a much more multifaceted story, and created an actual moral dilemma for Logan in the way Madisongate never could, because he is obviously allowed to sleep with whomever he wants when he and Veronica are not together and when he never expects them to get back together. And Veronica is entitled to her emotional reaction to that, once they did start dating again, because Madison was one of the only people she told about her rape and was one of the people who didn’t believe her.

@notaparkerfan—I love @petpluto perspective.

@millenderj—I agree totally with winifredburkle!!!!!

@risssaar-- Yes to all of this but especially to the Spit & Eggs breakup being the perfect break up for them. That is one of those moments that it still hurts to look at because it was so painful and real and raw - Logan saying he’d always love Veronica but that he needed more from her and from a relationship, Veronica stoically going on until she finally breaks down in the shower - there was such potential for growth there that even though they were breaking up I was excited to see where things would go and then they messed all of that up. I LOATHE that Logan x Veronica’s final break up before the 9 years of radio silence was about Madison. I even hate the way that they framed the whole sleeping with Madison discussion onscreen. Offscreen there was talk of Veronica’s sexual jealously being at the root of it and I think exploring that more onscreen could’ve been interesting and led to Veronica working through a lot of her other hangups about Logan/relationships, which would’ve been pretty amazing to see. Instead I felt like the point of this break up was simply to break up Logan x Veronica in some sort of CW mandated introduce other love interest twist and that just ruined everything. Logan x Veronica had so many real issues to work through that the writers could mine that I am forever bitter that they felt into this mess instead.

@jennydb-blog-- Wow, many offended ppl here. No one said Veronica cant break up with Logan for whatever reason. I am just saying I would not have done it over something like that. And I love V, but she is horrible at communication. She barely tells people stuff. It is not always easy to guess what she thinks, or how she feels. Logan understands her quite intuitively compared to f ex Duncan, but he is still not a mind reader.

@lisawolfe80-- One thing that always puzzled me related to this was if Logan was supposed to know how much Veronica really despised Madison, why would he use her as his alibi in 3x3? If your significant other is already miffed at you, asking her to verify your alibi with her most hated nemesis seems crazy. And given her non-reaction to that scene, I tend to feel like he really didn't get how much Veronica may hate her. Always made me question how much he understood her feelings on that

@jennydb-blog-- Yeah, Logan had many douchey friends, and I don't think he realized how far Veronica's hatred for some of them ran. She could never really forgive the way they treated her after the whole Jake Kane-thing. While Logan has stayed friends with them throughout that, and seen that they also accepted his relationship with Veronica. So he sees it from a completely different vantage point. Veronica holds a grudge, but she can't really expect everyone else to.

@teenagegumshoe-- Am I too late to jump in? Is Veronica justified in breaking up with Logan? Yes. His actions caused her pain and she didn’t think she could be with him anymore. Is it ok for Veronica to be upset by this, or is she being a totally irrational headcase? For me, I think blaming Madison was a coping mechanism. • She could place the blame on a single guilty party (instead of coping with the fact that all of her former friends violated her/let it happen) • Madison was someone she already hated (instead of having to deal with “I love Logan & Duncan but they sexually assaulted me.”) • Madison wasn’t someone she had to deal with regularly (unlike Dick, who was Logan’s only loyal friend) I really wish Veronica had dealt with these issues on the show. However, while blaming Madison is not rational, response to trauma often isn’t. I can’t dismiss her feelings, especially considering how much she has already forgiven/ignored regarding Shelley’s party. Did Logan know how much Veronica hated Madison? Well, let’s look at their conversation (thanks to vmtranscripts.com) LOGAN:  It wasn’t information that you had a right to know. I knew you wouldn’t be able to deal with the Madison thing. VERONICA: [with increasing anger] Which thing are you talking about? The “she roofied me” thing or the thing when I stumbled to my car in the morning, wondering where my virginity was, and she’d written “slut” on my windshield? Was that what you thought I couldn’t deal with? I am so genuinely sick right now. If I could have eaten anything today, I’d be throwing up all over your floor. Logan shows no surprise or shock at Veronica’s response, which includes some pretty serious accusations. If this was new information, I feel like Logan would have responded with a  “wait, what? MADISON roofied you?”. To me, that suggests that he’s aware of the sequence of events, he knows Veronica’s feelings and he purposefully omitted the name of his sex partner in Poughkeepsie, Tramps and Thieves because of it. Did Logan choose Madison as a sex partner to get back at Veronica? No, I don’t think so. The two of them run in the same social circles, and it probably just happened organically. Season 3 Logan wasn’t really vicious, just mopey. It may have crossed his mind, but I don’t think it’s the reason it happened. (I will say that I hate it when people claim that Madison must have preyed on a drunk, depressed Logan and put the blame for the encounter on her. Remember his hookup with that girl on the beach, who he called cheap but still accepted a blowjob from? Logan doesn’t need to be wasted to sleep with someone he looks down on).

@krristenbell-- im with V on this. I love Logan but he must’ve known how much pain Madison had caused Ronica, and (this may sound bad) but i think Logan might have chosen Madison purposely to make a jab at V. However, i don’t think he thought he’d hurt Veronica as much as he did

@saluteyourshorts-- I honestly think it's almost as bad as if he had cheated on her. Like you said he knew exactly how much she hated Madison and about her part in what happened at Shellys party. I can't believe that he didn't think about her and how much it would hurt her when he decided to sleep with Madison.