#also I'm talking about the musical. I can't comment on the movie or the novel because I haven't seen/read them.

[this-is-ali]

Y'all, it's 2023. Can we please stop pretending it's cool to hate on Dear Evan Hansen?

[breadvidence]

Please mind the #wineposting tag. Regardless: are you asking, "Should I watch this adaptation of Les Misérables?" I'll give you advice, though I suspect if you are reading this blog post you have watched all of these anyway (and quite possibly a few more, besides!).

'25 (Fescourt): Probably! If you are a Brick fan none of the adaptation choices will startle you, but having visuals to go with key scenes is a treat. This is a loyal piece. Toulout as Javert, Gabrio as Valjean, Milovanoff as Fantine, and Nivette as Éponine all give excellent performances. Be prepared for a lukewarm Cosette. You might struggle with silent film conventions, length, and French intertitles.

'34 (Bernard): Probably! This is a fairly loyal adaptation of the Brick that makes internally consistent choices where it deviates from its source (sometimes it has goofy continuity errors—politely ignore). Baur as Valjean and Gaël as Cosette give fabulous performances. Moments of silliness do not detract from the quality. Another long haul.

'35 (Boleslawski): Probably not. As an adaptation of Les Misérables this film is bad. That being said, Charles Laughton is a lauded actor, and you can't say he didn't put his whole laughussy into his performance. Because it is accessible and prominent, a lot of LM fans will have seen this film, and you might benefit from shared context if you're in fandom. Speaking personally, I'm glad I saw it, but I'm not sure you will be.

'52 (Milestone): No. Most likely based on '35 rather than on the book, this film is also a bad adaptation of Les Misérables. There are no notable performances. Because it is accessible, this is another adaptation many fans are familiar with, but understanding jokes about Valjean's boyfriend Robert and Javert's sentient hat probably don't justify sitting through the movie.

'58 (Le Chanois): No. Not the English dub, at least. "Bland" is the word of the day. Contemporary French audiences wildly disagree with me per Wikipedia.

'72 (Bluwal): Strong maybe. If you are an intense fan of the Brick, yes. Its use of a narrator to draw from the novel directly and its focus on the Amis makes this adaptation unique on this list. You might not end up liking it but you will have had an experience. If you have zero investment in Les Misérables but are still reading this post for some reason: no, do not watch this.

'78 (Jordan): At some point I will talk about this film and not make a gay joke but today is not that day. If you are not queer, get off my blog, you cis straight, begone. Everyone else: yes, watch this movie, c'mon. Perkins. That performance. At some point I need to make a serious post about queerness and '78 but right now all I've got is Javert's literal on-screen boner. Jesus Christ. Not a great adaptation of the novel but a virtuoso example of unintentional homoeroticism.

'82 (Hossein): No. This is an odd little adaptation without the charisma of a '35 or '78, somehow not as bad as either of those but not as good either. The GIF of the Amis walking in heavy wind is the best this film has to offer.

'98 (August): No—but I stared into my wine glass for a long, long time before typing those two letters. If we are judging adaptations by how they handle the source material, this is a disaster. As a film? I'm sure entertained. I call it bitchslap Les Mis. I should note here I am also a huge fan of Uma Thurman. Possibly I should recuse myself. I don't know, pal. IDK.

2012 (Hooper): I dwell bitterly on the fact that this is our film version of the musical. Brick fans are restless, musical fans are restless. People who first encountered Les Mis via this version are making feral noises. I'm afraid. I'm moving on.

2018 (Davies): It's really unfortunate that I am at my most drunk while commenting on this adaptation. Sure, watch it, it's one of those BBC series that has watchability sheerly because of production value and proximity to contemporary narrative/film expectations/standards. Personally I hate it. My partner is so tired of the tone in which I utter the syllables "Oyelowo".

The Musical: yes c'mon. Bootleg that good bitch.

[fangirling-heart]

It's a first for me and quite honestly I am pretty nervous but...

I'm making a post about my OCs!!!

Yay!!! 🎉

And since I can't draw to save my life, I used this picrew to present them, one of them you might recognize since I have introduced him in a tag game. Anyway here they are:

Starting with the familiar one, the 17 year old Achilles. He's the protagonist of an original story I'm working on and simply put, he's not okay. He lives with an emotionally and physically abusive father and a neglectful mother who cares more about her husband and their image than her son, and they both put a lot of pressure on him to be perfect in every way and also make sure he doesn't ruin the family's image in any way (a big part of which is hiding the signs of his father's abuse). In terms of a support system, he doesn't really have one since breaking up with his girlfriend, Ange, who also happens to be/have been his best friend, and his one other friend is...not that great. His only solace comes from reading and photography (and poetry but he would never admit it), but when even that isn't enough, his mind ends up in a really dark place and he tries something drastic. But thanks to a certain someone's intervention, he doesn't go through with it and as much as he (claims he) doesn't want to, he has to learn how to live again... in more ways than one.

Birthday: March 5

Sign: Pisces

Sexuality: Biromantic asexual

Likes: Photography, poetry, reading, watching and commenting movies, playing video games, rain, junk food, heights, dancing, history, mystery novels, Linkin Park (Ange constantly teases him for it), comics, rom-coms (when they aren't too cliché), motorcycles

Dislikes: His parents (his father especially), school, most sports, heat, having his privacy violated, being made fun of for his interests, big crowds, expectations, loneliness

The special someone I mentioned before. This is Ephraim, the reason Achilles stays alive and the one person he cannot shut out (both much to his dismay). The reason for that and the reason he appears wearing the same clothes as Achilles is because, after the event that saved the latter's life, the two of them end up sharing a body. Simply put, Ephraim is a ghost that possesses him. He can get control of his body and speak in his thoughts, but his actual appearance is visible only in reflective surfaces and luckily for them both not all the time, just when Ephraim chooses to surface. He possesses Achilles, thinking the two would be able to trade places, but instead he basically just hitches a ride in his body and his life. As for the reason he wished to possess him in the first place, he did it because he wants a chance to live again but most of all to find out what happened to his boyfriend, Mario, from whom he got violently separated before he died. And while he sees Achilles as a means to his ends at first, the two form a genuine bond over time.

Birthday: August 1

Sign: Leo

Sexuality: Gay

Likes: Nature, sunny days, ice cream, driving, fire, rain, shadow puppetry, learning new things, music, dogs, hugs, Achilles' poetry and photos, messing with asshole authority figures, spicy food

Dislikes: Being confined, being bossed around, talking about his death, homophobes and assholes in general, people making fun of Achilles, having to wait, ghost stories (he finds the way ghosts are portrayed offensive and unimaginative), feeling helpless, cold

And last one (for now). Ange (short for Angelica) is Achilles' ex girlfriend and best friend since childhood. Growing up the two were always together (the fact that they lived in the same building and shared a love for cinema and cameras helped with that) and long before they got together it was clear to everyone there were sparks flying between them. They were a classic childhood friends to lovers story, but after 2 years of dating, when Ange realized they both wanted and needed very different things from a relationship, as much as it hurt them both, she broke up with Achilles and the two haven't really spoken since, due to it being too awkward and painful. Though her homelife isn't as bad as Achilles' and she has other friends besides him, since the two broke up she has also been feeling very lonely and missing him, but doesn't dare to approach him, because she hates herself for hurting him and thinks he hates her too. It isn't until Ephraim comes along that they start kinda talking again (due to him pretty much forcing Achilles to talk to her).

Birthday: March 22

Sign: Aries

Sexuality: Straight or bisexual, I'm still figuring this out

Likes: Watching and commenting on movies, photography, making videos, directing, cinematography, animation, cake, dark humor, amusement parks, sunsets, puzzles, baggy clothes, late night walks, strawberries

Dislikes: Fake people, being underestimated, being judged, loneliness, people making fun of her work, makeup, gossip, visiting her grandparents, puppets

[hamliet]

at its core what makes something a good adaptation vs bad? chabhes will be made from one medium to another but like what is the most important thing to keep in mind?

Honestly, I think it's very specific to a specific work, and there aren't hard and fast rules or a checklist.

Generally, I consider it to be one of two things:

Is it faithful to the spirit of the work?

Is it telling a good story?

I also think there are two other items to talk about that aren't as directly connected but still matter:

Cultural context

Did you enjoy it?

Spirit of the Work

I generally think The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy is one of the best adaptations, because while it reworks order of events and cuts certain parts, it gets the main themes and character arcs across. The spirit of the work holds firm even when they're adding battles. In fact, as someone who likes alchemical literature, I find it really cool how the films used alchemy too--but used different markers than the books.

Contrast this with Game of Thrones. The problem was there in the earlier seasons but didn't become as apparent until the ending. They kept the characters for the most part and combined some characters, namely characters fans generally don't care a ton about (Arianne, f!Aegon). However, in doing so they neglected to think of the purpose of Arianne and f!Aegon in the story, and by combining them with the characters whose arcs A&A literally exist to comment on (Dany and Jon), they created a disaster thematically. Plus, they took the likely events of the ending, but completely altered the order and thereby the framing, changing it from a romantic tragedy that gives hope to a confusing mess that lives in infamy.

A Good Story

Is it telling a good story? Is it well done, or when watching/reading an adaptation, are you left with people saying "well that doesn't make sense here, but it did make sense in the manga/book"?

House of the Dragon is kind of failing here, and the cracks are starting to show more and more... but this was the case with GoT too, and it honestly does revert to "spirit of the work" in a lot of ways, too. Someone, anyone, who loves Romanticism and is well-versed in it, please adapt GRRM's stories so that the poor man doesn't have to write things like this which he did about a month ago:

"Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and “make them their own.” It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee ... Ian Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain ... Jane Austen, or… well, anyone.  No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and “improve” on it.   “The book is the book, the film is the film,” they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse."

Yeah.

Works that I think have great adaptations (a non-exhaustive list):

The Lord of the Rings

Banana Fish

Attack on Titan

Oshi no Ko (so far)

Hunter x Hunter

Pride & Prejudice (many times)

Les Miserables (book to musical)

MDZS*

Context

This is where the asterisk comes in for MDZS. I'm actually talking about The Untamed, not the donghua. And The Untamed fails a bit at a sensical story at times, and does change aspects of the novel that directly negate the main themes (and made fandom unbearable).

However, given the fact that it was made in China, where they can't show queer characters directly and cannot promote gray morality (central to the story) they did the best they could. They kept all the characters human, and even expanded on some of their roles in ways that felt very faithful to the spirit of the novel.

And? That is partially based on the next question.

Did you enjoy it?

Something doesn't have to be a good adaptation for you to enjoy it. You can really like something while acknowledging it's strong on its own, but is a different beast than the original work.

[yourpintilts]

Only Friends and Genre Theory

Well - I guess I'll start this blog off with post about everyone's (my) favorite series (it literally has not aired yet) of 2023: Only Friends.

Recently, the nominees for the ContentAsia awards were released, and my friends and I were celebrating the nomination of The Eclipse for Best LGBTQ+ Show (yay!) when a really interesting topic arose. Someone pointed out that Jojo Tichakorn's Never Let Me Go was chosen over The Warp Effect, which they felt was his better work in 2022. Regardless of your opinion on that (though, I agree), we wondered if The Warp Effect is even eligible at all. Of course, the category is LGBTQ+ Shows, but every single nominee is a BL.

I've noticed, in my perusing of BL Twitter and Tumblr that most fans seem to differentiate between BL, lakorns/dramas, and the LGBTQ+ genre, but nobody seems to define them. They are designating the genre by, for lack of a better word (although I consider it pretty accurate), the vibes.

I've seen the off-handed "I wonder what genre it will be" or "It seems like Jojo is leaning away from BL with this series" comment more than once about Only Friends. And really, it's hard to say at all when all we have is a trailer and cryptic social media posts from the cast and crew, but, uh, I'm gonna try. Sort of.

So, let's get into it: Is Only Friends going to be a BL, drama, an LGBTQ+ show, or something else entirely?

Alright, before we get into trying to put a label on the series, let's talk about the labels themselves: it's Genre Theory time!

So, what is genre? Well, most of us would consider it to be the category that we put a type of media or art into: country music, romance novels, etc. Genres help us differentiate amongst the huge sea of art, find patterns and create links between work, and, most practically, help us decide if we will likely enjoy something or not.

Normally, it's not much more complicated than that. Sci-fi, drama, noir, biography - each of these gives you a basic idea of what you're getting into, what tropes you might expect, or how you might feel while consuming it. But film theorists will be film theorists, and it's not actually that simple.

Let's take the horror genre as an example. At its face, we define films as horror because they follow certain tropes and patterns: things like jump scares, the final girl, dark and saturated style, slashers and paranormal, etc. But what about movies like Parasite or Get Out? These films rely less on jump scares and physical horror - it's their concepts themselves that are so scary. And so this is where sub-genres come in, in which Parasite and Get Out are labeled as psychological horror to further define them. And then there are films that just... don't seem to be anything at all. Something like (because I recently watched it) In Bruges, which mixes crime, drama, and comedy, but also never fully leans in to any of them. It sort of defies genre altogether.

So, that's the gist of genre theory. Basically, the point is that sometimes you can put a film or other piece of art in a category, and sometimes you can't.

But, let's be honest. We don't care about other movies. Let's talk about sexy, spectacular, groundbreaking masterpiece that will be Only Friends, and how we can apply genre theory in order to try to figure out what label best fits.

There are several different indicators of a BL, and Only Friends does fit some of them:

Most straightforwardly: the primary story in a BL is a relationship between two male characters. Of course, in this case there are six male leads (and who knows how many different pairings... TopSan, NickSan, RayBoston, and more have their advocates, some even seem likely), but the point is that the series is focused on their relationships together. Along with this, two of the three primary couples - ForceBook and FirstKhaotung - featured in the show are official pairings at GMMTV. BLs nearly always feature couples who have worked or will work together in multiple shows.

The series is also being produced by GMMTV, a company well-known for its stake in the BL genre, and it follows the logistical style of a 12-episode limited series.

But in several other ways, the show is in direct opposition to many of the components of BL. Some may not be intentional, or hard and fast "rules," but they occur so often that they are undeniably associated with BL as a genre.

As mentioned above, two of the lead couples are official pairings, but the other isn't. In fact, Neo and Mark both auditioned for their roles in Only Friends, and Director Jojo Tichakorn has spoken about his intention in casting them: to divert the expectation of clear masculine/feminine and top/bottom roles in queer relationships. The "seme" and "uke" trope, designating who gives and receives sexually (and usually indicating personality and relationship dynamics), has been pervasive in BL. It panders to the homophobic notion that queer relationships must still follow heteronormative standards. With NeoMark - and, as I believe, with all of the relationships in the series - Jojo will subvert that standard.

Also, Only Friends has a not insignificant amount of openly queer people writing, directing, etc. for the show. This certainly isn't the first time this has happened, but since BL began as a genre made by women and for women, Only Friends seems determined to be a series by queer people and for queer people.

And, because we've already established genre is not black and white, there are other aspects of Only Friends that blur the lines of its BL status. Only Friends seems to be much darker, grittier, and realistic the typical dramedy BL. We already know we will see smoking, drug use, sex, cheating, and according to Jojo, this is only scratching the surface. But, of course, the BL genre has evolved as of late, giving us shows like KinnPorsche, which also delve into such topics. So, while BL is largely more comedic and lighthearted, a darker series still can fit the genre.

Of course, there are many other characteristics of BL that Only Friends exhibits and opposes - I could be here forever if I wanted to list every single one, but we have less than a week until episode one, and personally, I want to watch the trailer a thousand more times before Saturday. So hopefully these examples gave you enough of an idea that Only Friends sort of straddles the line of BL (but also that BL itself is incredibly difficult to define, especially as it continues to evolve).

What about the LGBTQ+ genre - can Only Friends better be defined by this? Likely, yes, but my answer is so because the LGBTQ+ genre itself is even vaguer than BL.

(Some even argue that it isn't a genre at all. That's a post for another time.)

Shows labeled as LGBTQ+ are often done so because of a few defining characteristics, usually occurring at the same time: the show features LGBTQ+ characters, depicts LGBTQ+ themes (coming-of-age, acceptance, found family, etc), and is broadly accepted as such by the queer community. Only Friends certainly does the first two, but the third might be a bit trickier than it seems. With the divide between the LGBTQ+ and BL genres, some audiences will argue it fits one over the other.

And perhaps there are some important differences: the LGBTQ+ genre exists on an international scale, with media added to the queer canon from all over the world. Comparatively, I'm not sure I can think of a show outside of Asia that has been labeled as a BL. The LGBTQ+ genre does tend to be more diverse in gender and sexuality than the typical gay male leads in BL, too - BL does stand specifically for Boys' Love while LGBTQ+ encompasses any form of queerness.

But if we're focusing on these standards, I think Only Friends checks these boxes as well. The show seems to clearly be a test for a less conservative international market. And it is more diverse than just gay male leads; Namchueam is sapphic, Jojo has indicated that Ray is bisexual, and Yo is played by Jennie, a trans woman. Sure, there can always be more diversity, but this is absolutely a step forward compared to past, and many current, GMMTV series.

After positioning Only Friends next to the BL genre, then the LGBTQ+ genre, I would love to be able to make a judgment and wrap this all up in a neat little bow.

Actually, that's a lie. I don't want to do that - I am the complicated film theorist I was talking about before. So, it's a good thing I can't, isn't it?

Ultimately, Only Friends is a show that is here to break boundaries, to subvert expectations, to give us something we've never seen before in Thai, or maybe even international, entertainment. It would be an injustice to the series to try to put it in a box, to ignore its little nuances out of convenience.

It doesn't matter whether Only Friends is a BL or LGBTQ+ drama. We should be looking at the show holistically, taking it in as it is rather than through the lens of the things we come to expect from a specific genre. Genre can be useful, yes, but we can't get too held up on applying it where it may not be productive.

And yet (plot twist!), it sort of... does matter? It matters, not in the sense of changing what the show is, but changing the way we perceive and discuss it. The implications that come with a BL series are different than those of an LGBTQ+ series, even though both genres are difficult to define and are ever-changing.

The conversations we have about how innovative Only Friends is, its place in Asian versus international culture, whether it can be considered a success or not, if it's "good" representation and who gets to decide that... all of that is a product of the genre we label a series with. And I'm not really here to argue whether that is a good or a bad thing; like I said, genre can be useful, and fun - there's a reason specific genres remain popular! What I hope this post sparks is external and internal conversation about why we label, and how that might do a service and/or disservice to the media we engage with. Think about the way that you, personally, want to interact with Only Friends and shows like it, accept it, and then challenge it.

[flukefantasy]

"About the Blogger" Meme

I was tagged by @razielim and I just had to. How could I resist?

Favorite Pseud: Fluke

Time Zone: EST

Star Sign(s): Aquarius sun - Sagittarius moon - Libra rising

Favorite Holidays: New Year's Eve and Valentine's Day (probably because it's right after my bday lolol)

Last Meal: Vanilla coffee :'3

Current Favorite Musician: T Square, The Arcadian Wild, Shadow Academy

Last Music Listened To: According to my phone, it was "Latchkey Cats" by Louie Zong

Last Movie Watched: I think it was Muppet Christmas Carol

Last TV Show Watched: Gurren Lagann!

Last Book/Fic Finished: Dracula by Bram Stoker

Last Book/Fic Abandoned: Harrow the Ninth hfgjkh I do want to read it. Something about it makes me struggle to retain any information about it.

Currently Reading: Nothing atm

Books/Shows/Movies/etc. You Want to Get Around To: I'm about to start watching Xena Warrior Princess for the first time

Last Thing Researched for Art/Writing/Hyperfixation: OH! I been really into music theory as it applies to Movies, TV, and Video Games lately. Also also currently hyperfixated on Final Fantasy 14 and Half Life lore videos

Last Eureka, Breakthrough, or Neat Fact/Concept Learned: Fun fact I learned is that it's actually safer to roll over in a vehicle collision because it absorbs more of the shock into the car and not your body

Favorite Online Fandom Memory: Late night Kuroshitsuji RP on Furcadia *chef kiss*, laughing till I can't breathe in Sheith Empire, writing obscure anime crossover fic that somehow still gets comments on ff.net, my friends letting me make and present a 100+ slide PowerPoint summarizing the plot of the first 6 Star Wars films from memory

Favorite Old Fandom You Wish Would Drag You Back In/Have A Resurgence: I talk shit, but I would don my clown wig and crawl right back into VLD if they made more content. (ask me about how pissed I am the fandom whined until the comic was cancelled)

Favorite Thing You Enjoy That Never Had an Active or Big "Fandom" but You Wish It Did: the Oddworld games

Tempting Project You're Trying to Rein In/Don't Have Time For: I really want to make a visual novel but I have to learn a lot of new skills :')

Tempting Project You're 100% Going to Undertake: I would love to edit down and illustrate the Adventure Zone Balance to make it easier for new casual listeners to consume

Tagging: @red-madam @iambuggy @seasaltwish

[pixyys]

Please practice them a lot. I don't want to be the victim of your jokes and pickup lines anymore /j

And indeed, now thinking back to it, Lippmann's violin bowing sometimes didn't match the piece. I asked Silver about it, but I didn't expect her to give me such a long list on what Lippmann had done wrong and how he could've fixed it. I'm thinking of making Lippmann actually learn the violin.

Oh, and that reminds me. I was listening to the radio this morning when they played a Chopin piece. The only thing is, they transcribed it from piano to an orchestra. I don't know how to feel about it; it still sounded beautiful, but would this sort of thing be considered 'sacrilegious'? lmao this actually happened this morning

... That joke made me want to sever my head from my body, frankly speaking. You're lucky I considered not to tell Lippmann. But do that anymore and I might actually use piano wires to decapacitate myself.

I had to force Silver to take a break; aka threatening to pull out her piano wires if she didn't stop practising. She didn't seem very happy, but she understood that it was for her benefit. It still didn't stop her from slapping me though.

Oh? You were too distracted by Lippmann's charm that you forgot your own pickup line? No worries. I'll just tell Lippmann that that was your pickup line. He did look kind of red in the face on that night of the movie though. I wonder if it was because of the heat.

But please don't fake your death and fly to Paris. Otherwise, I'm telling Lippmann about all your corny jokes and pickup lines and how sometimes you felt 'hot' around him.

Although I do want you to meet our newest member. His name is Nakahara Chuuya; ever heard of him before?

-🎹

P.S. I asked Silver about it. She seemed a bit surprised, but she said that it was because I had a 'crush'. I'm not that dense to not know what that means. It means that I have formed an attraction to someone, am I right? When I found out the meaning of it, I did become a bit red. Silver looked a bit sad though...

warnings. slight mention/ spoiler of fifteen novel

i won't count on myself if i were you, brother. i'm not done making everyone the victim of my jokes and lines/ lmao j

and oof, sending prayers for lippmann. silver can be ruthless when it comes to music and fine arts/ lmao j..right? making lippmann learn the violin sounds like a superb idea. he and i can have courses together you guys can be novice musician buddies!

for the chopin you heard on the radio, hmm i'm not sure. i don't mind orchestra adaptations, but i also don't have enough insight to comment on that. pray tell, does it really count as sacrilegious? we should ask silver later.

HA! but i see you didn't, in fact, decapitate yourself, brother/ oml i hope im not jinxing anything- please don't be shy to tell me if you want more. i want to start giving the same jokes to lippmann and everyone else, but my gut feeling is telling me not to. hm, weird.

oh dear, a slap? both of you are beginning to remind me to an old couple having a love quarrel. though one can't have true love without some quarrels, i suppose. so you're good. point being, it's relieving to know silver finally got deserved rest.

i-

that's actually a very good idea. maybe i should call you genius man from now on. thank you, i can't owe you more than this. but tell lippmann or a single soul about my predicament, brother, and i might strangle you with those definitely-not-piano-wires-but-other-type-of-wires myself (affectionate). /lmaoo

nakahara chuuya? i'm not sure, but i did overhear some of your men talk about this newsletter saying "chuuya's a sore loser." i wonder if it's the same chuuya. poor guy, maybe some of my jokes can cheer him up, maybe.

p.s. oh no. oh no no no no. as expected of my brother, you're too cunning to be that dense, good. but still, i've read enough romance novels to see where this is going, at least i think so. i'm not a "crush" expert, but i'd say you should take her on a date sometime.

so i tried to look further about chuuya in the fifteen novel, and i snorted lmao dazai is a menace

[thelediz]

I used to get this all the time, and man, OP, them feels, but I can't sleep so I'm going to ramble in defense of everyone involved.

I think something we often forget is that story writing, show production, music production, all these creation things, are very different mediums with very different privileges and restrictions. And fanfiction especially is so privileged because we are ultimately creating only for ourselves, so we have the freedom be so indulgent.

And sometimes that's what a reader/viewer/listener is going for, because why else would they be seeking out fandom? So of course they're going to love it more. They're being indulged!

But is it actually better? Ehhhh.... kinda not the point.

An example of this is from OP's show: Character A is sitting in his pyjamas despite it being well into the day, surrounded by junk and discarded clothes in his usually spotless room. It is barely a ten second scene, the show never comments on it, it's just a quick visual before he gets up and gets on with supporting his heroine.

Meanwhile, as a writer in that same scene, there are two ways to approach this:

One, don't mention it at all, because it's not important to the point of the scene, we're not going to get into it, so we don't introduce it. Move the heck on. This would be what a professional writer would do to adapt this specific scene.

Two, which as a world building fanficcer is my absolute jam, they might do one or all of the following:

A paragraph or two about why he's in his pyjamas still. Is it depression or self-indulgence?

A quick vignette about how he tried pizza for the first time and what he thought about it

Talk about why he hasn't had the energy to clean up after himself/is indulging in messiness because he finally CAN

Mention the fact that no one has been into his space for the last few days to comment on the mess

A quick mental sidetrack about how none of the above matters because his friend and the city at large need him

It could be anywhere between a hundred words and six thousand, but the point is, as a fanficcer, I have the time and space to indulge all of that character work without stopping the narrative.

The show, on the other hand, has to keep the story moving to the action sequence that's about to take place. It's a twenty-two minute show with commercials to air. It is not going to deviate for ten minutes to discuss mental health, but it kind of wants you to know there's something unspoken going on. So it gives you the visual. The character work done here is that despite the visual, he still gets up and gets to work.

I will also point out another privilege we have as writers - we can use internal monologue. Visual mediums that do this always suffer, because narration is bad (show, don't lecture!), so they try to avoid it.

Compare the Hunger Game Trilogies books vs movies. The Haruhi novels with the anime. Horror books in general versus slasher films! Writers can have their characters ramble away to themselves, comment on their surroundings, think stuff through, whereas shows and movies need to leave space for not only action but also the other characters. That internal narration just bogs everything down.

And finally... we're in fandom. We are not selling to a mass-market audience. We're creating ultimately for ourselves. So we don't need to worry about what the moral guardians will say, or time limits, or what's technically possible. We can spend six thousand words talking about the wonders of socks, or hours producing beautifully rendered pixels of falling rain, and if no one else cares, then it doesn't matter, because we chose to do it for our own fun. Not to make money.

I regret to inform you, fandom, that canon usually exists to make money or propaganda. Which means it's gotta be tight, highly edited, and only indulge in things that have been market tested.

But again, we wouldn't seek out fandom if we didn't want to dig into stuff canon material doesn't have time/space to do.

So I mean... I get it.

But it would be nice if people could understand that neither one is necessarily better than the other. They just have different priorities and needs.

But oh well. As a fanficcer, in current fandom, I will personally take any comment people are willing to give me... But still. Them feels, OP.

“I like the way you write the characters, it’s sooo much better than that shit way the writers of the show write them” is a compliment that’s very confusing to receive as someone who likes the way the characters are written in the show and is trying to mimic it

[sureuncertainty]

but that (and going thru the comments on the youtube video) got me thinking about how fucking SICK I am of this cynical attitude towards art and stories and media today. the whole idea that things were just better in the good ol' days. one commenter says "this is exactly what's wrong with the disney parks today, bc everything is a cash grab" like yeah? it's a company? and like yeah capitalism is bad, and yes it ruins things a lot of the time, and yes it can feel hopeless but you are SO WRONG if you think that the disney parks as they stand today do not have some of if not THE best examples of incredible detailed immersive storytelling in their lands and attractions

defunctland's video talks about how impressive the original space mountain in disneyland paris based on the jules verne novel was, and how it saved the park from bankruptcy because of its success and specifically talks about how impressive its storytelling was, managing to tell a story while also being a thrill ride. which made me think of guardians of the galaxy cosmic rewind, which is imo one of the best examples of immersive storytelling while also being a thrilling coaster AND having an absolutely banging soundtrack (bc if you say you don't want to ride a rollercoaster to one way or another by blondie you're lying).

like disney is making new things that are ALSO REALLY REALLY COOL, and there's always gonna be new things that replace old things, because things CHANGE that's just life.

this goes for literally all kinds of art, like it makes me think of those stupid tumblr posts that are all cynical and 'capitalism has ruined art" and "everything is soulless" and "every movie is a cash grab" and "don't watch barbie bc it's just an advertisement" etc. etc. etc. like oh my GOD this year has been an amazing year for film and TV and there are SO MANY amazing stories and storytellers and movies and shows and books and video games and theme parks and attractions and theater and musicals that are being made and coming out right now by passionate creatives who CARE SO MUCH and i'm so SICK of this attitude that none of that matters actually bc capitalism

like yes, be critical of capitalism, yes be upset about poor marketing decisions, be angry when your favorite show that means so much to you gets cancelled, mourn the loss of art that you loved, but you can't live in the past or the good ol' days, and if you do you're just gonna miss all of the amazing art that is right in front of you.

good stories have been told since the beginning of time and will be told until the end of time. and like not to be dramatic but capitalism is not the death of art because art will never die.

[rddykilowatt]

Ninjago main cast headcanon's 'cause I can B)

Jay: loves science fiction media so much, the one in the team with an unhealthy caffeine addiction, serving golden retriever gamer boy energy, bisexual and doesn't shut up about it /pos, knows a lot of big words but can't spell any of them, went to a chucky cheese when he was like five and now it's his whole personality, loves to zap the others unprovoked (like static electricity yknow-), cluttercore aesthetic, music taste of an early 2000's mom

Cole: the only one on the team who didn't know that the titanic film was completely fictional, loves first person shooter games, musical theatre kid but hides it by listening to classic rock and 60's hits, loves incorporating dance moves into martial arts, hamilton musical references just to annoy the others, a gym bro at heart, gives the best hugs, his dad saw ac/dc once in concert and he's still very salty over it, his blood stream is 80% protein powder and pre workout *sigh*, likes to follow bob ross paintings to destress

Zane: loves indulging in the interests of his teammates, stress bakes, reads wikipedia like its the bible, mom friend™, is the only one that makes their bed, "I'm not your own personal Alexa guys,, so stop treating me like one *plays despacito on command*", sleeps to those weird whale noises (iykyk), really likes super hero media, sleeps on his back like a maniac, always says "you'll never understand the intricacies of" when talking about anything he really enjoys, is actually super chaotic but covers it with logic and various big words

Kai: plays horrible dating simulators unironically, reads romance novels/manga, a sucker for a happy ending (yes that was a heathers reference), resident big red/hot tamales/red hots/atomic fireball consumer (he really likes cinnamon flavored things), puts hot sauce on things that don't really need hot sauce on them, makes s3xu4l comments but is actually s3x repulsed, reads the fanfiction made about him to the rest of the team out of spite, ate hair gel once just to know, eats nya's snacks all the time out of spite of the hair gel incident™

Nya: is always thirsty/always drinks water, watched h20 just add water as a kid, steals protein powder and pre workout from cole, listens to paramore like the goddess she is, cried over the twilight films (she also owns the soundtrack on cd), got kai into romance manga now she just laughs at him for liking it, she likes spice drops but won't eat the cinnamon ones, once poured out all of kai's hair gel and replaced it with elmer's glue (they laugh about it now but they hated each others guts for years over it)

Lloyd: was forced to watch the ant bully movie when he was like twelve and stopped trying to be evil out of fear of being turned ant sized and getting kidnapped by anthropomorphic ants (yes, I am projecting here), can't figure out how to change his xbox-live name so he'll forever be stuck with user garmadone666, gatekeeps mitski seriously, has a scene sonic oc, writes emo poetry in the dead of night, saw the batman movie once and has never been the same, likes a lot popular/mainstream media, tumblr kid, probably has an iron deficiency

[kaypeace21]

"Rebel robin" easterggs

- Robin's friend is a horror movie fan whos fav movie is evil dead (jonathan has a poster of it in his room)

- Robin's parent's car is the " dodge dart" a ref to Dustin's demodog-dart

-robin and her friends make analogies to zombies (like Will- the zombie boy).

- robin faints. And her friend milton says "blink once for yes twice for no". A ref to what Joyce said to Will in s1.

- robin's other friend has a little sister named el-ie who pretends to be a squirrel. A ref to el killing a squirrel in s2. This is also reminiscent of a scene from the st prequel novel ' suspicious minds' where young-kali pretended to be a tiger (the Hawkins school mascot) & a rabbit (Jonathan's hunting story).

- robin reminds me alot of the byers: she is into photography and rock like jonathan and even worked at the movie theatre like jonathan did in the og pilot. They both like David bowie and cook for their families. She also is poor and wears hand-me down clothes from relatives (like Will). She also is into existential philosophers. Which is also similar to jonathan who had a poster of the poet rimbaud in his room.

- robin is almost run over by a car by a bully while riding her bike: similar to Mike, Dustin, and Lucas in s2

- robin says the best accessory for a girl is her middle finger. Cue max giving the middle finger to billy in s2 XD

- robin (before Will dissapears) sees the quarry and gets uncomfortable and thinks of metaphorical monsters

- similar to how billy had baseball references (along with Will). Robin wears a baseball shirt

- her fav flavor of pie is cherry (like alexi and cherry slurpies). She also gets pissed at a guy sipping a cherry flavored drink- similar to hopper in s3 with alexi

- she cuts her hair and she describes it as looking like a lion. El and Will owned lion plushies in s1.

- robin refs Chicago (kali lives there) and NYC (hopper used to live there), and California (where max and billy used to live).

-tammy's fav song is total eclipse of the heart: the song Robin and Steve sang in s3. Tammy would often sing the song in robin and Steve's class.

- they make references to the hellfire club: she describes a time where she dresses like a cross between a nerd and a rebel. And a mom yells at her appearance saying she looks "goddless' . And another of Robin's friend (kate) is told ' what demon is possessing you, kate?" (hinting at the satanic panic). Meanwhile someone describes Mike and his friends as "hellions' as another hint to this. We also see how alot of parents got paranoid and a bit crazy when Will and barb dissappeared- prob foreshadowing the chaos that will happen if more kids dissappear in s4. Along with the satanic panic

-Robin is visiting her friend Kate at her house. Kate wanted to listen to Madonna together. Max and el listened to Madonna at el's.

- Robin's friend (kate) says "I dumped his ass" in reference to her cheating bf. A little nod to the m*leven breakup

- robin (like Will) felt excluded during the summer cause her friends kate and dash (Kate's now ex bf) were always making out . Sound familiar- cough m*leven

- robin annoyed says " makeouts, breakups and declarations of love all in the span of a week". Wow if that ain't a diss to certain pairing we know in s3 XD

- kate (like mike) says to Robin dating the opposite sex is a part of growing up . Which scares Robin (and Will in s3).

- robin has a nightmare of running down the school hallway with short hair (like el in s2 via the upsidedown)

- robin contemplates shaving her head (like el)

- robin says she likes to sometimes dress androgynous . And found a cool suit. Which we saw in s4 bts pics I assume.

- robin watches a music video where there are duplicate indianna joneses (could be a ref to all the billy duplicates in s3?)

- robin says " I stare at the ceiling. The ceiling stares back. I'm stuck and don't know what to do" a ref to the s3 song with robin called "the ceiling is beautiful"

- a character named Sheena reminds me a bit of Will or el . She is very quiet, queercoded, and is often bullied. And she finds mean notes and other things in her locker- placed there by bullies. A bit like how Will found the zombieboy note in his locker. But sheena can be another name for Jane so ...maybe foreshadowing of el/jane being bullied in highscool?

- when robin hears a hom*phobic comment on tv- she describes the anxiety like a ' thundercloud in a big open sky' and a "chill". Which reminds me of the mf being associated with clouds, thunder, and lightning. And the mf liking it cold.

- robin constantly describes the monster or shadow in her life- whether it be her talking about conformity or the problems of consumerism while she is poor (themes of s3).

- robin before realizing she was gay/crushing on tammy just says " I don't get crushes' which reminds me a bit of Will saying " I'm not going to fall in love" (as the lyrics are " love thats new to you, you open up the door')

-robin on her bike hears something (demogorgan) and runs back to her house , locks the door, and calls her friend- and the phone gets electrocuted. The next day Will is said to be missing. (Another Will paralllel).

- i was right about robin being in theatre. So we most likely will see robin in theatre in s4 (she also auditioned with a friend in the book). So for s4 my guess is she may be in the drama club with dustin- cause in s1 he had a drama shirt

- one of her friends is named milton. Since the documentary 'paradise lost' was on the s4 movie list. Its prob a ref to John milton who wrote the fictional 'paradise lost'. The character Sheena may be a ref to the 80s film/movies *where sheena (jane) was psychic

-Robin's gal pal (kate) and Robin eat m&ms and candies together. Kate jokes m&ms and candy bars are 'foods of the gods'. El ate m&ms in s3. They joke how talking about plural gods (instead of 1) would get them in trouble. In case you are unaware- kali (is the name of a Hindu goddess) and el (is the name of a cannanite god) .

-Robin also mentions hopper's car smells like eggos.

- robin tries running away (like el in s2, max in her novel, and jonathan also wrongfully assumed Will ranaway in s1 too).

-robin tries to get a job at Joyce's, than Bob's, and later gets a job where jonathan used to work

-bob newby describes the byers family as his "home" . Similar to how El describes the Hawkins gang as "home".

- robin says she was friends with barb before nancy. Suspiciously right after she says this- barb grabs Robin's hallpass that says ' glitch in the time space continuim. " the teacher who wrote this called robin a "glitch". Which makes me wonder if my did theory is right- but ...that certain powers at be may also alter memories or things so people assume said people have always been around.Mentioning it cause it seemed suspicious.

-not an eastegg but robin can't believe how nice Bob is. And Bob says the byers filled a hole in his life 😭 . She also felt an instant connection with Will and saw alot of herself in him.And asked if Joyce ever thought of moving like everyone suggested . One of the reasons Robin didn't like steve was because Steve never mentioned how Jonathan took innapropriate photos of Nancy. So everyone at school just knew jonathan as the quiet kid who takes pictures. So to everyone it just seemed like- wow you're bullying the quiet kid who's brother is missing and take away the one thing still left in his life that makes him happy. Which is why everyone assumes jonathan beat up steve later. Interesting to know how general Hawkins (not in the loop) viewed things

- the book referenced alot of previously mentioned movies on the s4 list or from prior duffer interviews...along with a few NEW movies ,books, plays, singers, and songs that I have to analyze for another day ...

[chetungwan]

Thanks for tagging me, @sew-birb!

1. How many works do you have on ao3?

20! Although over half of them are drabbles written for last year's whumptober, so I feel a little guilty counting them.

2. What is your total ao3 word count?

33,622 words. I. Don't actually know if that's a big number or a small number. It's definitely not novel sized, so I guess I haven't written a book yet.

3. How many fandoms have you written for and what are they?

Well, 10. But four of them are from my very early works that I'm kinda embarrassed by.

4. What are your Top 5 fics by kudos?

Two Disasters, One Bomb

SCP-3906

Booth's Past - I want to qualify these last two. They were the first fics I ever posted, and they really show their age. I keep them up because I believe in the concept of an archive, and because I think that showing growth in a writer is useful. But the reason they're so far up here is not because they're good, but because they're old.

two bombs and one goes off

if at first you don't succeed, try try again

5. Do you always respond to comments? Why or why not?

I try to! I get few enough that I can, and I like the engagement. So I respond! I like talking to people

6. What’s the fic you’ve written with the angstiest ending

This question actually made me realize that for all I love writing angst, I seem to have a habit of ending on at least a hopeful note. But thankfully I have one that I did manage to make very despairing! Set Them Up And Knock Them Down definitely ended the opposite of hopeful.

7. Do you write crossovers? What’s the craziest one you’ve ever written?

Oh buddy, I almost exclusively write crossovers. I guess the craziest is also Set Them Up And Knock Them Down, but that's mostly because no one cares about Farscape anymore except me and a couple of my friends.

8. Have you ever received hate on a fic?

Nope! I am barely known.

9. Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

The closest I got to smut was a couple fade to blacks between Tim Stoker and Daniel Jacobi, which incidentally is another fun crossover of mine.

10. Have you ever had a fic stolen?

No, again, I'm barely known.

11. Have you ever co-written a fic before?

Sort of? I've helped write fic with people, though it's really theirs in the end. And I've edited fic, though that's something else entirely.

12. What’s your all time favorite ship?

UUUHH. It really really depends on the fic and even then it varies from moment to moment. If the ones I've written? I guess I'm proud of Tim/Jacobi.

13. What was the first fandom you wrote for?

Oof. Okay, so it's not up on AO3 anymore, but I wrote a fic for Bullets Over Broadway. The musical, not the movie. You know, the one that ran for like a week because it sucked so much. I saw it in previews with my highschool art club, and wrote the fic sentence by sentence on the bus back to the hotel. It got passed around the bus and read out loud, because we were all nerdy, horny teenagers who wanted to read about the mobster fucking the playwright.

That one was fade to black too because I genuinely cannot actually write smut.

14. What’s your favorite fic you’ve written?

A crossover with Wolf 359. I refuse to pick beyond that.

Tagging uuuuuuuuh @electricshoop @ophelia-thinks @ anyone else I know who writes fic? I can't remember who's tumblrs link to who's AO3 handles

[geek-gem]

My thoughts on the upcoming Doom movie reboot

This is something I haven't never really talked about. Especially I first went on Tumblr to search for any people talking of it. Yet theirs hardly or just barely anything. Especially I didn't wanna look through the whole thing but doom movie reboot doesn't work.

But just in case if anyone is wondering yeah theirs a Doom movie reboot that's being made I forgot if their in post production or not. But it's gonna be straight to DVD or whatever whether streaming or whatever.....

Basically this is gonna be me rambling and it isn't much of a rant but could be. Also just how I feel like a Doom movie should of gone.....yet also me talking about the realistic nature of why maybe something like my ideas wouldn't happen but it sounds like bullshit considering certain R rated films.

Honestly the Doom movie reboot is a film I'm not interested in. Basically when I found out it was straight to DVD and not gonna be released in theaters. I wasn't interested.

Especially over time I didn't cared for the movie more as time went on considering certain news updates.

Honestly I seriously dislike how this movie just came out of nowhere to me personally unless their was an announcement. It was first found out when one of the actors seriously tweeted about being casted in the film and gonna say I got this from Mr. H Reviews he's done videos on these.

It's kind of crazy I mean unless they were gonna announce it. It's just stupid that it's just so secretive. Especially why straight to DVD why couldn't it be in theaters? In fact as a big Doom fan and Doomguy/Doomslayer fan the idea of a movie reboot that's good is something want.

Listen I never wanna see the old 2005 film. Even though when I was young I saw moments. But as a fan of the series and hearing so much shit about it I don't wanna even see the film.

Well I've heard some little details that are nice but just......it's weird to talk about and I don't wanna sound toxic.

But why can't we have a big R rated fun action film that's brutal as fuck and has a kick ass soundtrack. With Mick Gordon doing the music like the 2016 reboot and the upcoming Doom Eternal game.(2nd edit also music like from Disturbed and Five Finger Death Punch and other metal bands too)

Seriously I have ideas and even casting choices.

Such as the brilliant fan casting of Tom Hardy as Doomguy/Doomslayer. While I feel now these days Tom Hardy might not be interested in a role like Doomguy. Yet considering works like Mad Max Fury Road he might. Also while I've tried to think of other actors but it's very difficult especially to fit the lore. But honestly Tom Hardy kicks ass he fits.

Including other casting choices like Jamie Lee Curtis as Olivia Pierce. While I have thought of Liam Nesson. It's just Darin De Paul is so damn good as Samuel Hayden why the hell replace him. Had to Google Liam's last name and samuel hayden voice actor which is on a Google screen. Honestly this voice acting thing should go to Vega as well.

While yes I'm thinking more of the basis of the movie based upon the 2016 reboot. I've had ideas what if it's a mixture of the original games like Doom 1 and 2. Along with the reboot don't worry Hell On Earth would be the sequel. Basically the whole idea the original games took place in the 2020's but still.(2nd edit still most likely 2149 like the 2016 game)

I've seen ideas people mentioning of what if a Doom movie that's like Hardcore Henry. I've never seen that movie yet I've read the story on Wikipedia and the idea is great. Yet the original idea for me people might not like. But it would be done in a way respectful to the games.

I've seen people talked about Dredd 2012 and how it should be like that film and that film is fucking awesome. But the idea is Doomguy is still Doomguy. Yet the more character stuff you'll get will be with other characters who join along with Doomguy. As a joke he's basically baby sitting these characters and their trying to help out. While it still has Doomguy be this quiet protagonist that really speaks loud with his actions and also in some moments showing his humanity still.

Especially get a reference to Daisy in there some how.

Especially Doomguy is still the protagonist while we have other characters that can talk as they react and try to interact with Doomguy in some ways. Especially if they try to help him.

Yet honestly one thing that got me thinking and I guess is a road block. What about the whole idea is this the same Doomguy from the classic games and the reboot series where he's gone through dimensions and shit. Yes I'm one of those people who goes with that especially with Quake Champions confirming it. Or is it a whole different Doomguy being a badass and has the same agenda. It's a weird thing to think about but I'm probably thinking about it too much.

Yet honestly when I think about it but let me say this. Universal has the money to do this. Their one of the biggest companies and they have the money to back it up.

Or are they seriously scared of what happened with the first film. Is it a big risk probably so to do a film like what I'm talking about it probably is. But we have films that have been R rated and being big box office hits whether their low budget or whatever else.

Also I should get to the big thing.....the whole female Doomguy shit that was tweeted and people were pissed off and it bothered me as well. Especially nights ago I remember speaking to myself watching Christopher Ridge's video on the movie reboot and his thoughts on what's going on. I don't watch his channel much really yet it made me think but still I'm bothered.

Listen I have nothing against female protagonists and....I might sound stupid I weirdly want that in Doom while Doomguy is still the main character. I ignore the novels because people disown those novels and from what I heard they go in a completely different direction.

But I feel yeah Doomguy is the base character for the player. Yet over time the character has I guess involved where he's basically his own character while you can still be him. Especially just whatever story parts while story isn't as important as gameplay it's something I look at. I would like Doomguy portrayed accurately.

Honestly while I've read a comment below Christopher Ridge's video on the movie with the tweet that someone said fans could be assuming or whatever. We don't know if Doomguy is in the movie. I do agree with Christopher or if I remember he mentioned that actress should of maybe not said that or should of been more careful about saying that. Because that seriously bothered me as such a big fan of the character Doomguy/Doomslayer himself.

I feel or might of forgotten stuff that is maybe all I have to say.

Tags done and decided to put this in the charger before tags. I just wanted to mention my opinions about this. Thinking of it I'll post my opinions on the film if it gets a trailer hopefully. If it gets one and not released out if nowhere hopefully.

Especially if we get a film with ideas like mine. Can we get hash tags like, #ripandtear and #alldemonsmustdie #killalldemons and more whatever else

Edit glad theirs no notes on this yet. But I went to the bathroom and seriously forgot adding an awesome image to this because I want to.

I just love that image and I basically want a film like that, live action with some CGI and practical demons. CGI for ones that need it. Along having some story but it's basically Doomguy/Doomslayer kicking hell's ass.

[aegialia]

I want to start reading the iliad and those types of books!! I'm not sure where to start though, and I can't find anything online. What books should I read that involve Greek/roman mythology?And what order should I read them? + any other comments/things I should know? Thank you in advance!!!

sorry for the late reply! i’ve broken this down into a few sections.

If you really don’t have much of a grounding in greek mythology/the trojan war, here’s where you should start:

if you want to read a good, easy to read, and short-ish summary of the whole war, i really like black ships before troy, a children’s version of the story. it’s the first thing i read, and it’s pretty accurate. also comes with pictures!

age of bronze is a graphic novel of the whole trojan war, good if you have a hard time with the language and style of epic poetry. i like some of it a lot and hate some of it a lot. 

honestly, reading the summary of the trojan war on wikipedia is a pretty good idea. the back story is weird, contradictory, and convoluted, and wikipedia is (usually) correct

once you have an idea of what’s going on, here’s where to go next:

the iliad. you really should start with it, if only because basically everything that’s written after it draws on it. 

everyone has an opinion of what translation is best. here’s my two cents: lombardo is easy to read and fun, but sometimes a little too modern. lattimore is pretty, but i don’t like how he translates stuff with women. fagles is decent, if kinda boring. pope has very archaic language, so avoid it your first read through. those are the most common translations i’ve seen, but there are others out there. please don’t read a prose version, They Are Evil (a lot of the time they cut out bits of the story and they lose all musicality)

after the iliad, the odyssey should come next. it’s got similar characterization and style to the iliad, so it’s easy to read

there are version of it written by the people who wrote ‘black ships’ and ‘age of bronze’. most translation advice remains the same

the aeneid seems like where you should go next, but i’ll warn you- it’s a bit of a drag. it’s got some fun bits, and then a lot of really boring bits

i don’t know of any modern adaptations of it, but you should definitely read a summary before reading it

as for translation, i’ve only read fritzgerald. it’s a good translation and easy to read. 

after the big three:

if you don’t want to read 12 books of aeneas whining, you can skip here after the odyssey

greek tragedy! there’s a lot of it, and it’s fun. there are three surviving playwrights, who i’ll talk about below

aeschylus: tbh, i haven’t read much of him. i liked ‘agamemnon’, but i’ve never gotten around to the rest of his works. he wrote a trilogy of plays about agamemnon’s homecoming and all the shit that went down after that called the oresteia. the only other one i’ve read is ‘7 against thebes’, which was boring

sophocles: not my fav, but he’s pretty great. ‘ajax’ is amazing, but very depressing. ‘philoctetes’ is kinda weird, but ok. 

euripides: i love euripides so much, man. my favorite is ‘the bacchae’, but it’s not about the trojan war. ‘the trojan women’, ‘hecuba’, and ‘andromache’ are all good and trojan-centric. i really liked ‘iphigenia in tauris’. ‘electra’ is hands down my favorite trojan war play. btw, he really hates sparta, which is why menelaus and all of his family are usually super evil 

i have no advice on translations, tbh. go and see the plays if you can

weirder and usually unread things:

fragments of the epic cycle: there were a bunch more epics than the two we have! unfortunately, we only have like 3 lines from any of them. they’re fun to read and have some neat side stories, but there are no modern translations that i know of

hesiod: we’ve got some bits of some stories from the trojan war from him. tbh, i haven’t read them much, he’s not my type

apollodorus has an account of the trojan war in his big book o’ myths

lycorphon’s poem ‘alexandra’ gives a neat perspective on the war from cassandra 

colluthus has a version of the abduction of helen, i am not a huge fan of it

tryphiodorus has a short little poem about the fall of troy. it’s kinda cool

seneca wrote a few plays set during the trojan war, i haven’t read them

statius wrote part of an epic about achilles. if i cared slightly more about achilles, i’d probably like it

dares of phrygia also wrote an account of the fall of troy, which i enjoyed

the posthomerica is fun, and full of death

ovid wrote some 

not classical, but about the trojan war:

dante’s inferno. you get to see all of your favs in absurdly wrong circles of hell (why is achilles in lust??? literally the most important thing about him is rage!!!!) and hang out with vergil

shakespeare’s ‘troilus and cressida’. idk man it’s a weird play. i kinda liked it, but it’s pretty removed from the iliad

there are a bunch of medieval romances based on it

helen turns up in ‘faust’

you probably know about the song of achilles. if not, it’s the story told by patroclus, focusing on his relationship with achilles. i have complicated feelings about it

‘helen of troy’ is the story from helen’s perspective. i haven’t read it, but i’ve heard it’s good

non-trojan war classical stuff:

there’s a ton of stuff about the argonauts, which is super fun

reading hesoid and ovid’s stuff is fun, b/c you get all the weird little stories

cicero is an engaging read, if an annoying dude

herodotus is fun if you like fake history. my fav roman historian is polybius, because he writes about carthage

reading basically anybody’s letters is fun

sappho and the other lyrical poets are lovely

i have a soft spot for the homeric hymns

the satyricon is one wacky adventure

general tips:

theoi.org has translations of most of the things i’ve mentioned, as well as a good reference guide to general greek mythology stuff

please don’t read de bello gallico. it isn’t fun and you’ll probably hate caesar

don’t watch troy. it’s terrible. it’s just so.so.so. bad

the movie version of the satyricon is bizarre and unpleasant to look at

there are twenty versions of every myth. there is no consistent characterization. medieval writers had weird ideas. most translations come from like 1920. 

none of this is essential, not even the iliad. these stories are ancient and nebulous and you can pick and choose what sounds interesting to you

if you’re confused by something (for instance- wtf is happening in the house of atreus), feel free to ask me. i love talking about this stuff So Much

there are also lots of people on tumblr with actual classics degrees and stuff who know more than me

i am a 17 year old who has taken a few years of latin classes. you don’t need a degree or a teacher to get into this stuff

have fun, ignore logic, laugh at ridiculous stuff, skim the boring bits

this is crazy long, sorry, i got Very into this