#all this around the lf hand thing too george was like i know guys he used his brain a lot in the last chapters for that edmure stunt

[ilynpilled]

look im jaime’s strongest soldier but he is also such a massive bimbo

[branwendaughterofllyr]

Branwen reads ASOIAF (again) - AGOT Catelyn II

Of all the rooms in Winterfell’s Great Keep, Catelyn’s bedchambers were the hottest.

They’re pretty warm too!

Ba-dum-ching!

Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here until TWOW is released. 

Listen, if George can indulge in his inner 12 year old boy all the time, I can too.

We also learn a lot more about WF in this chapter, and we all know I live for WF lore. 

The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death.

WF has an internal heating system that basically keeps the castle functional during winter. How interesting. I wonder if this will at all be relevant when winter comes. Also LOVE the description of WF being a body, with the hot spring waters beings its warm lifesblood. (also explains how the glass gardens work. Sorry Jonny boy, not sure if this would work at the Wall as well.)

Catelyn’s bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

Aw. Ned and Cat banter. Adorable. But I love how Catelyn really has been able to make WF her home in so many small ways, like having hot bathes and warm rooms, which all remind her of her childhood (notice LF doesn’t make the childhood memory reminiscence lol). And Ned thinking its too hot, but taking the teasing from Cat so well. (also the Starks choosing a super hot location to build their castle. HMMMMM. Feels relevant to more than just the terrible winters. I know people have already said this, but it’s important!).

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber. The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty-handed.

I CANNOT believe that Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, habitually stands butt naked in an open window after having sex with his wife. Everyone in WF knows a little too much about Ned, methinks. 

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone.

I will never be over NedCat, thank you very much. 

Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed that it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son.

Just let them be happy with their babies!

Okay, now we’re going to get into the political discussion, which has a major chunk of the fandom convinced that Catelyn is an evil conniving bitch, whose ambition killed Ned. (no, I’m not even exaggerating a little.) Personally, I think that it’s an important moment that characterizes Cat as very politically astute, and the Race for Iron Throne guy agrees with me, which is always nice. What does the text actually give us?

“I will refuse him,” Ned said as he turned back to her. His eyes were haunted, his voice thick with doubt.

Ned is already strongly considering turning down Robert’s offer, but it’s clear from this description that he’s not sure if this is the right choice. He’s haunted by this decision, and he isn’t hiding the fact that he’s very unsure. There’s a reason why he's asking Cat. Not only are they a team, he also trusts her input. Saying he needed to talk to her was more than just an excuse to put off Robert, Ned really did need to talk to Catelyn, and he’s clearly not afraid to show just how vulnerable and unsure he is to here. This is one of the moments that really cements how strong their marriage is. Okay, so here is Cat’s reaction. 

Catelyn sat up in the bed. “You cannot. You must not.”

Cat’s immediate reaction is “that is a bad idea.” She physically reacts because Ned refusing Robert could have really bad consequences down the road for them all, and she’s going to argue this case ion just a moment. 

“My duties are here in the north. I have no wish to be Robert’s Hand.” “He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can’t you see the danger that would put us in?”

Once again, we are seeing the idea that power changes a person, usually in the context of kingship, which is about as powerful as you can ever be in Westeros. And Cat is clearly no such when it comes to past relationships between kings and the people who turned them down. It’s a great way to breed suspicion. 

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. “Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!” 

“You knew the man,” she said. “The king is a stranger to you.” Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see. “Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face.”

Ned’s stance is that Robert is still his friend and would never do anything to hurt him, which is probably largely true. But we have seen in the past that their relationship is from unshakable, and the only reason they made up after Robert giving Tywin the pass on war crimes was because Lyanna died (and also there’s a reason why you hid Jon’s parentage so well, Ned. You know why.) And we see in a few chapters the absolute fight Ned and Robert get in over the assassination of Daenerys that could easily gone south. And part of the problem is that Robert is usually extremely far way from Ned, so they won’t be able to physically reconcile if Robert is busy brooding in KL, with all the Lannisters around him after he leaves the North. But Ned is probably right that Robert wouldn’t be as bad if it was someone else turning him down, but he’s still probably going to be pissed, and we all know that Robert had ego issues and likes to hold grudges. 

Which leads to Cat’s point that this would be an affront to Robert’s kingly pride, which gets played on a lot by other people, with various degrees of success. Think Cersei trying to get her direwolf skin. And if Robert has made it known he was going to ask Ned and Ned turns him down, it is going to be embarrassing for Robert. And also Cat is still freaked out over the very obvious omen but knows that won’t sway Ned so she keeps it to herself.

“Honors?” Ned laughed bitterly. 

“In his eyes, yes,” she said. “And in yours?” 

“And in mine,” she blazed, angry now. Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?”

 “Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey … Joffrey is …” 

She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

Oh boy. Let’s try to break this down. A consistent thing throughout this conversation is that Cat is trying to get Ned to see why she’s so concerned about this offer and why she so strongly disagrees with him. We see later that Ned has severe blindspots in several areas, and it’s really interesting to note the way the text goes out of its way to show Catelyn making Ned “see” what's really happening around him. Ned’s not stupid, but he has weaknesses that he needs Cat to compensate for, and vice versa. We make lots of jokes about Cat being consigliere of the North, but she really, really is. Ned at his core is a very trusting person that expects basic decency from other people, while Cat is much more able to see right through them (something which is very clearly inherited by Arya.)

And the marriage between Sansa and Joffrey. Ned, my love, in this world children are very much dynastic tools, and I think one of the people who are most aware of this is sitting right in front of you, so I think Cat probably has considered this quite deeply. Catelyn wants Sansa to be the next queen because not only is that the most secure/powerful position she can ever hope for for one of her daughters, it also means that the Starks will be permanently tied to the big power of their world and thus probably safer. There’s a reason why marrying your daughter off to the throne is such an important move to make. Catelyn is clearly thinking long term about this, planning out to her grandchildren’s futures. Ned is stuck on the fact that Sansa is eleven, and while he is VERY correct she’s not at all ready to be married off, she won’t be eleven forever, and a betrothal is far from out the question. Cat was twelve herself, and we see a lot of various other characters betrothed very young throughout the series. Why are none of your kids betrothed yet, Ned? Robb at the very least is old enough that you should start poking around. 

And also, picking your daughter to marry the crown prince is ABSOLUTELY a major honor, and I think Robert would be extremely prickly if you turned this down, what with his Lyanna baggage. Tread carefully here, Ned. 

Also, is this the first hint of Ned realizing that Joffrey is a psychopath and probably should not be allowed to marry his daughter? because if that's the case, maybe say something to Catelyn? She’d probably be more on your side if she thought Joffrey would be dangerous to Sansa, especially since husbands are allowed to do everything short of murder to their wives. (also, love me some queen Sansa foreshadowing. We all know that she won’t be Joffrey’s queen. 👸)

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.” “Perhaps not,” Catelyn said, “but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.”

Oof. Now we can see what this is really about. Ned has really never (and understandably so) gotten over what happened to his family, and he has one of the most massive cases of survivor’s guilt ever to grace literature. And it seems like he and Cat have had this conversation before, which is why Cat is being a little short with him. They've been married for over a decade now, and have five children together. He has no reason to feel insecure in their relationship, but the past is always going to hang over both of them. Brandon and Jon’s mother in particular are always going to be there in the background. Oh shit, I forgot that the narrative straight up says this in the next paragraph 😂.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

I am very smart. 

But I love the way that past constantly overlays the present in ASOIAF, its impossible for the characters to escape no matter how hard they try. (also, the connection between Brandon and Jon’s mother, though unintentional by Cat is... excellent. It’s always his family hanging over Ned, dead Starks.)

Also, a younger son drinking from a cup meant for his older brother sounds like some light foreshadowing for Jon and Bran inheriting what was meant for Robb when he dies. And the bitterness screams Jon to me, lol.

She was about to go to him when the knock came at the door, loud and unexpected. Ned turned, frowning. “What is it?” Desmond’s voice came through the door. “My lord, Maester Luwin is without and begs urgent audience.”

Way to clamjam, Luwin! Could you not have waited like half an hour for Ned and Cat to have emotional married sex???? 

The maester was a small grey man. His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. His robe was grey wool, trimmed with white fur, the Stark colors. Its great floppy sleeves had pockets hidden inside. Luwin was always tucking things into those sleeves and producing other things from them: books, messages, strange artifacts, toys for the children. With all he kept hidden in his sleeves, Catelyn was surprised that Maester Luwin could lift his arms at all.

Alright, let’s take a look at Maester Luwin for the first time. Overwhelmingly grey, which suggests Stark loyalist right off the bat. But also, “his eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much.” feels very close to Jon. Possible connections include: diehard loyalty to the Starks, often underestimated, sworn to a celibate order? May not be that intentional, unlike the Waymar Royce description which was almost identical, but something that I picked up. 

Also, I love Luwin and his sleeve pockets. I want them so badly. (also, he’s literally hiding something up his sleeve!!!!!!!)

The maester waited until the door had closed behind him before he spoke.

With this one move, Luwin proves himself to be smarter than half the characters  in the books. 

We move into the Agatha Christie section of the book which is very funny to me because it has a lot of early installment weirdness in it that will never be seen again. 

I have been left a message.” Ned looked irritated. “Been left? By whom? Has there been a rider? I was not told.” “There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one, but it must have been brought by someone in the king’s party. We have had no other visitors from the south.”

I don’t care that much who actually brought the box, though I’m sure there are entire reddit threads devoted to it, but I think the important detail is that WF is not that hard to sneak through. The implication that it must be someone in the king’s party is also probably an early hint that LF’s fingerprints are all over this, since Lysa is already in the Eyrie. But no one will think about this, and we won’t get payoff until Sansa gets all the tea dropped on her three books from now.

The box contains a a myrish lens, and it turns out that Cat and Luwin have not been inviting Ned to the escape room parties they have on Thursdays nights, and they have to walk Ned through to the clue, that there’s something else they need to look for. 

“What is it that they would have us see more clearly?” “The very thing I asked myself.” Maester Luwin drew a tightly rolled paper out of his sleeve. “I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.” Ned held out his hand. “Let me have it, then.” Luwin did not stir. “Pardons, my lord. The message is not for you either. It is marked for the eyes of the Lady Catelyn, and her alone. May I approach?”

It’s a secret message... for Catelyn! Also, love Luwin diligently enforcing mail privacy laws. 

I know that there’s a not small contingent that firmly believes that Luwin and Catelyn conspired to trick Ned into going south for... political gain, I guess, which only gets funnier to me over time, especially post ASOS. Have they considered that Luwin and Cat are actually just really good friends, and that most of WF likes and trusts each other? No, impossible, Catelyn is the source of all evil, and Sansa has learned to be the worst character at her mother’s knee. It is known. 

“What is it? My lady, you’re shaking.” “I’m afraid,” she admitted. She reached out and took the letter in trembling hands. The furs dropped away from her nakedness, forgotten. In the blue wax was the moon-and-falcon seal of House Arryn. “It’s from Lysa.” Catelyn looked at her husband. “It will not make us glad,” she told him. “There is grief in this message, Ned. I can feel it.”

I doubt that any mail from Lysa is ever that fun even in the best of times. Catelyn knows that this is going to be very, very bad. 

“Lysa took no chances. When we were girls together, we had a private language, she and I.” “Can you read it?” “Yes,” Catelyn admitted.

AND THIS WILL NEVER COME UP AGAIN. Ding ding ding, early installment weirdness strikes again. 

Okay, Catelyn gets up butt naked across the room and makes everyone wildly uncomfortable in a scene that is very funny to me personally.  Also, she says that Maester Luwin delivered all her children, but we also know that Robb was born at Riverrun. Is Luwin originally from the south? Did he come North with Cat? Is this a character detail or just early installment weirdness? Idk, I’m sure someone somewhere knows the actual answer, but it is not me. 

Catelyn immediately burns the letter after reading it, which freaks Ned out because “wtf was in that letter?????” The answer? Treason!!!!! (and the Catelyn conspiracy theorists will say that the letter actually said something different and Cat burned it so Ned couldn’t see it which makes NO SENSE)

“Lysa says Jon Arryn was murdered.” His fingers tightened on her arm. “By whom?” “The Lannisters,” she told him. “The queen.” Ned released his hold on her arm. There were deep red marks on her skin. “Gods,” he whispered. His voice was hoarse. “Your sister is sick with grief. She cannot know what she is saying.”

And there was no saving anyone from this point onwards. Everyone is irrevocably fucked. 

“She knows,” Catelyn said. “Lysa is impulsive, yes, but this message was carefully planned, cleverly hidden. She knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands. To risk so much, she must have had more than mere suspicion.”

Sounds to me that someone other than Lysa may have been involved with this letter. HMMMMM.

Catelyn looked to her husband. “Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert’s Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth.” She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. “The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid.”

Cat, Ned, I love you both, but I’m not sure if Ned’s really qualified to become an amateur detective in a place with ridiculously high stakes. Ned might be right that it could be better to stay in the North and ride shit out. There’s a nonzero chance KL is just going to self-implode. But I guess Cat has a point that they should probably be proactive. 

Luwin plucked at his chain collar where it had chafed the soft skin of his throat. “The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true.” Ned glanced helplessly around

AH, chafing collar motif! Service as a source of discomfort! One of my favorite little details that will come up again and again. The in world metaphor of maester’s chains is one of my all time favorites.

But also, while Luwin is correct, I feel like we’re overestimating Ned and underestimating the Lannisters. As far as you know, they killed the previous hand of the king, and are probably willing to go for round two. 

Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn’s heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then. First the victory must be won, for her children’s sake.

Once again, Catelyn is very much a political animal in a way that Ned never was, and a lot of people hate for it, but when it comes down to it, Cat is a mama wolf out to protect her family. And I think it’s very clear in Cat’s pov, that as it stands, the Lannisters are gaining more and more power and aren’t afraid to fuck any of their rivals up, which include the Starks. If she wants to make sure her kids don’t get knives in their backs five, ten years down the road, they gotta act soon before it’s too late entirely. Who knows how Robert will feel about Ned if he goes back after Ned turns him down? Who knows if Robert will even still be alive next year? Better to play what they have now before they lose it. (and yeah, she is more than a little manipulative but she’s a woman without any power in her own right???? She has to go through the men in her life???? It’s called soft power, look it up. It’s what queens and ladies have doing for like two thousand years.)

“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester.

Poor Ned. I think he can tell he’s absolutely fucked. 

And the best bit of descriptive writing this chapter goes to sad Ned who’s trying not to cry.

They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes.

*sniff sniff* I’m not crying, you’re crying!

“My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.” “A different time,” Maester Luwin said. “A different king.”

I know that you know that Robert is no Aerys but there is a 99% chance that this line will be said again when another Stark contemplates going south to meet with another Targaryen. Just saying. 

“Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.” His words were like an icy draft through her heart. “No,” she said, suddenly afraid. Was this to be her punishment? Never to see his face again, nor to feel his arms around her?

Say what you will, but there is no doubt that Catelyn truly loved Ned. And though this is very clear death foreshadowing for Ned, and for Lady Stoneheart,  I think that Catelyn was not entirely prepared for the consequences of Ned basically moving to the south for probably the next decade without her. But also, you were always going to have to stay, Catelyn? Did you not realize it or were you just in denial?

“Yes,” Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. “You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.” “Gods will, not for many years,” Maester Luwin murmured.

EVERYONE HAS GOT TO STOP FORESHADOWING NED’S DEATH. I DO NOT LIKE IT.

Ned was never going to make it out of the book alive with all of this very helpful foreshadowing. 

Also, I’m going to say that 14 year old Robb does not in fact turn out to be ready to rule, but hey. You tried. 

“Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming.” Maester Luwin nodded gravely.

Tears are just weakness leavening the body. I’M FINE.

But Luwin really did remain loyal to the end. He really did.

Then silence fell, until Catelyn found her courage and asked the question whose answer she most dreaded. “What of the other children?”

Oh, Cat. All your babies are going off and you can’t do anything because its the best course of action. 

Ned stood, and took her in his arms, and held her face close to his. “Rickon is very young,” he said gently. “He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me.” “I could not bear it,” Catelyn said, trembling.

Catelyn is very smart and astute, but she loves her babies so much. 

“You must,” he said. “Sansa must wed Joffrey, that is clear now, we must give them no grounds to suspect our devotion. And it is past time that Arya learned the ways of a southron court. In a few years she will be of an age to marry too.” Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran.

I still think that Ned should let Catelyn know about his misgivings about Joffrey, but it’s too late for that. And also maybe you should let Sansa know that she should be careful around her future in-laws??????? 

But Catelyn does know her girls very well, and even Ned knows that Arya needs to go through lady bootcamp. (personally I hope Arya would have remained a little hellion if everything hadn’t gone horribly wrong.)

But also Bran. He really is Cat's favorite and she’s going to blame herself for his fall for the rest of her life which just breaks my heart. 

“Yes,” she said, “but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven.” “I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie,” Ned said. “Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it.”

Big lol on the Starks being friends with Joffrey like Ned and Bobby B. Bran is incredibly easy to love, but even that isn’t going to save the relationship between Joffrey and the Stark boys because Joffrey is Joffrey. Also, let’s debate below if the Robb/Joffrey conflict foreshadowing was fully fulfilled in the War of the Five Kings happening, or if maybe a personal fight between Joffrey and Robb was initially planned but then dropped, bc I could could either way.

Also note that Ned was only eight when he was fostered out, so Jon Arryn really was a second dad for all intents and purposes. I wonder if Ned ever felt a little bit like an outsider in the North? Possible.

He was right; Catelyn knew it. It did not make the pain any easier to bear. She would lose all four of them, then: Ned, and both girls, and her sweet, loving Bran. Only Robb and little Rickon would be left to her. She felt lonely already. Winterfell was such a vast place. “Keep him off the walls, then,” she said bravely. “You know how Bran loves to climb.”

😬

Way to bring the negative foreshadowing, Catelyn. Grouping Robb and Rickon together does not make me feel warm and fuzzy inside about Rickon’s survival chances.

Ned kissed the tears from her eyes before they could fall. “Thank you, my lady,” he whispered. “This is hard, I know.”

Guys. I don’t know if I can survive Ned and Cat dying all over again. I really don’t know if I can do it. Every time I cry all over the place and these moments are not helping. 

“What of Jon Snow, my lord?” Maester Luwin asked.

Thanks for ruining the mood YET AGAIN, Luwin. 

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

 Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

Oh boy. It’s time to have the bastardy conversation again. So Catelyn is essentially not allowed to be mad at Ned having a bastard. “He has a man’s needs” and all the garbage, but Catelyn was raised to suck it up and shut up about it, and that’s what she’s done. She is obviously very hurt by it, but she can’t really be mad at Ned without having to reevaluate how fucked up Westerosi marriages really are so she’s not going to. This is actually pretty standard for Westerosi women and real life medieval women. But the real kick in the teeth is Ned bringing the bastard home and Catelyn knows it. 

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 That cut deep.

This is what pissed Catelyn off, and frankly, she’s right. She's a new wife, an outsider to both the family itself and the North as a whole, and when she shows up to her new home, Ned has already installed his acknowledged illegitimate son there. Catelyn is already starting at a disadvantage at WF in pretty much every way, being a Southerner and of a different religion, and her only leg up is that she’s already done her job and produced an heir. But Ned already has another son, one that is not only already there when she arrives, but also looks more like Ned than her sons, which is going to rankle her every time she sees him, and also bastards in this world have started at least a couple rebellions against true born heirs. Is Cat right to be mad at Ned? Yes! Should she be taking it out on Jon? No! But she can’t really do anything against Ned, but she can ice out Jon, so she will. 

Also, having your children inherit is basically the only “reward” noble women get  in Westeros and the medieval period for being “good women,” and we’ve established that Catelyn is all about defending her children’s rights (and her only real legacy she’s allowed as a “good” Westerosi noblewoman.) Bastards are a really problem in that system, and Catelyn KNOWS it.

There’s also the emotional betrayal. Even though Ned and Catelyn didn’t really know each other when they got married, they’ve by now established a very close and living relationship, but the fact is that he cheated on her and she has to deal with the proof everyday. The entire segment about Ashara Dayne is really about the emotional betrayal rather than Catelyn just hating Jon because she’s a bitch. 

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Once again, Catelyn is absolutely all up in her head over this, because who is she supposed to talk about this with????

This is the same thing I was talking about earlier, the way the past constantly overlays the present, even as it passes into story while some of the players are still alive.

Also... is this the version that Sansa hears??? I assume not because Ned puts a stop to it after Cat asks him about Ashara, but Sansa knows that Ashara committed suicide? I do wonder how she heard it (and how she would feel about this version considering she idolizes her parents’ marriage.)

It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again. 

OOOOH. The one time that Catelyn is ever afraid of Ned. The one time she describes him as “cold as ice” the way other people do. This really is the major sore spot in their marriage, and don’t think I missed “She had pledged to obey.” SHE HAD PLEDGED TO OBEY. Just.... Remember that. As much as Ned clearly loves Catelyn, he does always have the upper hand in the relationship because of the society in which they live, and Catelyn is very aware of that even if Ned often isn’t. 

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

This entire conversation is littered with Jon’s parentage conversation, but this feels like some of the strongest stuff right here. Aside from Catelyn, the woman that Ned thinks about constantly with love, is Lyanna. I don't think that there are that many Ashara truthers out there anymore, but there’s the evidence right there for Lyanna.

Also Catelyn straight up spells out why she’s so icy to Jon. She loves Ned, but she can’t stand that he brought the proof of his infidelity home, and there’s literally nothing she can do about it. And Jon looks like Ned more than her sons, and honestly, that’s probably pretty scary considering what we learn about the Blackfyres in later books. 

I am a Catelyn apologist, and while I don't think that Catelyn should have taken her feelings out on an innocent child, she is under no obligation to love Jon and her stance is pretty understandable, especially since the text straight up spells it out why she feels this way. This entire situation is really on Ned, but neither Catelyn or Jon can put the blame on him for many reasons, so they hate each other instead. And that’s a pretty interesting emotional conflict in my humble opinion!

“Jon must go,” she said now.

 “He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …” 

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell. 

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

 Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

 “And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

Okay, Ned, what was the plan for Jon? You really should have been thinking about this. I repeat: WHAT WAS THE PLAN?

Also, the implication that Ned had just as much to do with seating Jon away from the royal family as Catelyn has not gone unnoticed by me. He is also aware how petty Cersei is.

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.” 

Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?” 

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Thank the gods for Luwin, thus fight could have gone completely sideways. 

But also, yeah, Ned. He asked to join the Night’s Watch. Where the hell else is he supposed to go?????? 

Also, Catelyn worrying about Jon's children competing with her grandchildren.... Catelyn, I have the perfect solution but you are NOT going to like it. 

Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.” 

“And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …”

OH, so now a boy of fourteen is too young? Make up your mind, Ned!

Also, another mention of honor and Jon, bastards rising high, everyone take note. This will be on the test. 

“A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed. “Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.” Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.

Fun fact, the kindle version of AGOT has “cruder” instead of “crueler” and that did make me snort a little. 

But I think this line is kinda the thesis statement for the Starks’ journeys. Everyone’s road fucking sucks, just in different ways. 

Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.

STOP WITH THE FORESHADOWING CATELYN.

This chapter repeatedly putting Robb and Rickon together is NOT good for my nerves. 

“When shall we tell Jon?” the maester asked. “When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.”

This entire chapter is just meant to emotionally wreck anyone foolish enough to reread the books. I’m not even going to make a joke about Ned’s inconsistency on when kids should become adults, because I too just want Jon to enjoy these last days of childhood.

So, some wrap up thoughts on this chapter. 

This is the first repeat POV, so there’s a departure from the last couple chapters, which were in my opinion basically mini foreshadowing arcs for the character’s whole story. This chapter was much more intent on establishing the personalities and relationships between Ned, Catelyn, and Luwin, and I think it did a pretty good job. I think that Catelyn comes off fairly sympathetically, as a person trapped in u fortunate circumstances, but that’s just me. 

Oh, and the LF and Lysa conspiracy really was planned from literally day one.

I have no idea when the next chapter will be coming bc I have to actual work for my uni that sadly does not include analyzing ASOIAF, lol. 

[gffa]

OKAY, IF I’M GONNA DO THIS, I’M GONNA DO IT PROPERLY.  WHICH MEANS YEAH IT’S GONNA GET REALLY LONG. A couple of things to say ahead of time:  Lucasfilm’s Story Group has always said CANON > WORD OF GOD when it comes to these matters, so when I quote canon examples from supplementary materials that contradict what he says, that’s LF’s official position, but that doesn’t mean that an influential person like Dave’s views couldn’t affect how things will be shaped in the future, like Deborah Chow listening to this may be influenced by it on the Obi-Wan show, despite that Master & Apprentice contradicts him.  It’s an incredibly murky area!  Mileages are going to vary.   Another thing to keep in mind is that Dave Filoni never worked on The Phantom Menace, that was long, long before his time at Lucasfilm (which I think he joined sometime around 2007? and TPM was released in 1999), that he has worked with George more than probably anyone else, but we cannot and should not treat him as infallible or the True Authority on things, because even Dave himself has said things like: “I mean, I know why I did that and what it means, but I don't like to explain too much. I love for the viewers to watch stuff and come up with their own theories -- and they frankly come up with better things that I intended.”  --Dave Filoni, Entertainment Tonight 2020 interview Or, in the same episode as the above Qui-Gon interpretation:

So, when I dig into this, I’m not doing this out of a sense of malice or even that I suddenly hate Dave or don’t appreciate all the incredible things he’s brought to SW, but in that I disagree with his take, Dave understands that he doesn’t always get it right, that he enjoys that fans come up with different things than he does and sometimes he likes those even more.  There’s room for both of us and, for all that Dave mentions George a lot (and, hey, fair enough, the guy worked with George and I’m just quoting what George Lucas has said) doesn’t mean that this is straight from George, especially because I have never seen George Lucas utter so much as a peep about how the Jedi were responsible for Anakin’s fall.  He has explicitly and frequently talked about how Anakin’s fall was his own choice, as well as I’ve never seen him say anything Jedi-critical beyond “they were kind of arrogant about themselves”.  I have read and watched every George Lucas interview I could get my hands on and maybe I’m still missing something, but that’s literally the extent of him criticizing the Jedi I have EVER seen. (It’s from the commentary on AOTC where he put in the scene with Jocasta to show they were full of themselves, but I also think it’s fair to point out that Obi-Wan immediately contradicts this by going to Dex for help, showing that it’s not necessarily a Jedi-wide thing.) Before I go further, I want to say:  this is not a post meant to tear down Qui-Gon, he is a character I actually really do love, but the focus is on showing why the above interpretation of him is wrong, which means focusing on Qui-Gon’s flaws. He has many wonderful qualities, he is someone who cared deeply and was a good person, I think things would have been better had he lived!  But Anakin’s choices did not hinge on him, because Anakin’s choices were Anakin’s, that has always been the consistent theme of how George talks about him, the way he talks about the story is always in terms of “Anakin did this” or “Anakin chose that”, and the Jedi are very consistently shown as caring, they believed very much in love and Dave’s own show (well, I say “his own show”, but honestly TCW was George’s baby primarily and he had a lot of direct, hands-on say in crafting it, through at least the first five seasons) is plenty of evidence of that. I’m not going to quote the full thing because this is already a monster post, I’m just going to focus on the Jedi stuff, because I like the other points a lot, but if you want the full text, it’s here.  The relevant part is: “In Phantom Menace, you’re watching these two Jedi in their prime fight this evil villain. Maul couldn’t be more obviously the villain. He’s designed to look evil, and he is evil, and he just expresses that from his face all the way out to the type of lightsaber he fights with. What’s at stake is really how Anakin is going to turn out. Because Qui-Gon is different than the rest of the Jedi and you get that in the movie; and Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows he’s the father that Anakin needs. Because Qui-Gon hasn’t given up on the fact that the Jedi are supposed to actually care and love and that’s not a bad thing. The rest of the Jedi are so detached and they become so political that they’ve really lost their way and Yoda starts to see that in the second film. But Qui-Gon is ahead of them all and that’s why he’s not part of the council. So he’s fighting for Anakin and that’s why it’s the ‘Duel of the Fates’ – it’s the fate of this child. And depending on how this fight goes, Anakin, his life is going to be dramatically different. “So Qui-Gon loses, of course. So the father figure, he knew what it meant to take this kid away from his mother when he had an attachment, and he’s left with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trains Anakin at first out of a promise he makes to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him. When they get Anakin, they find him on Tatooine, he says “Why do I feel like we’ve found another useless lifeform?” He’s comparing Anakin to Jar Jar and he’s saying “this is a waste of our time, why are we doing this, why do you see importance in these creatures like Jar Jar Binks and this ten-year-old boy? This is useless.” “So, he’s a brother to Anakin eventually but he’s not a father figure. That’s a failing for Anakin. He doesn’t have the family that he needs. He loses his mother in the next film. He fails on this promise that he made, “mother, I’m going to come back and save you”. So he’s left completely vulnerable and Star Wars is ultimately about family. So that moment in that movie which a lot of people I think diminish, “oh there’s a cool lightsaber fight”, but it’s everything that the entire three films of the prequels hangs on, is that one particular fight. And Maul serves his purpose and at that point died before George made me bring him back, but he died.“  --Dave Filoni  I’m going to take this a piece at a time to show why I really disagree with the content of both the movies and The Clone Wars supporting what Dave says and, instead, contradicts it a lot. The rest of the Jedi are so detached and they become so political that they’ve really lost their way and Yoda starts to see that in the second film. He doesn’t explain what this means, but I’m pretty sure that he’s referring to this conversation: OBI-WAN: “I am concerned for my Padawan. He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet.” YODA: “The Council is confident in its decision, Obi-Wan.” MACE WINDU: “The boy has exceptional skills.” OBI-WAN: “But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well.... arrogant.” YODA: “Yes, yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Hmm... too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.” MACE WINDU: “Remember, Obi-Wan, if the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.” OBI-WAN: "If he follows the right path.” None of that has anything to do with being “detached” and, further, I think this is something that’s come up with Dave’s view of Luminara a lot, because he’s described her (re: the Geonosis arc):  “We were trying to illustrate the difference between the way Anakin is raising his Padawan, and how much he cares about her, and the way Luminara raises her Padawan. Not that Luminara is indifferent, but that Luminara is detached. It’s not that she doesn’t care, but she’s not attached to her emotionally.” Here, he says that the Jedi care, in the above, he says that the Jedi don’t care, which makes me think there’s a lot of characterization drift as time goes on, especially when fandom bombards everyone with the idea that the Jedi were cold, emotionless, and didn’t care.  However, look at Luminara’s face in that arc, when she’s talking with Anakin:

That is not the face of someone who doesn’t care.  She even smiles brightly in relief when Barriss is shown to be okay, that this really doesn’t convey “detached” in an unloving or uncaring way.  (We’ll get to attachment later, that’s definitely coming.) (I’m also mostly skipping the political thing, because I think that’s just a fundamental disagreement of whether Jedi should or should not lean into politics.  My view basically boils down to that I think ALL OF US should be leaning more into politics because we are citizens who live in the world and are responsible for it, and the Jedi are no different.  This is evidenced by:  - M&A’s storyline has Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan saving the day specifically because they play politics, that’s how they manage to free the slaves, through playing politics and being part of the Republic/having Senate backing. - The Clone Wars has shown that the Jedi believe “lasting change can only come from within” and “it’s every citizen’s duty to hold their leaders accountable” when Ahsoka teaches the cadets on Mandalore, as well as that politics are not inherently bad, given that Padme and Bail are working to make the system better or “create lasting change from within [the system]” - "Trying to serve the greater good does not always make you popular” says Padme Amidala in a very caring speech - Star Wars Propaganda makes the case that the Jedi might have won the war had they leaned more into politics. - Sometimes the Jedi get unfairly accused of playing politics when there’s just no good choice and they still have to choose one or the other.) But Qui-Gon is ahead of them [re: caring and loving] all and that’s why he’s not part of the council. This is flat-out wrong in regards to canon.  Mileages are going to vary, of course, on how much one takes a novel into consideration, but Dave Filoni is not a fan with the luxury of deciding what is or isn’t canon, he works on Star Wars where canon is canon.  Now, does that mean canon will never contradict itself, especially if Dave gets to write something for Qui-Gon?  Of course not, SW isn’t immune to continuity errors and they themselves have never said otherwise, even when fans want to hold them to that standard. However, this is still pretty much a big “that’s not what happened” instance.  In Master & Apprentice, the Jedi Council offer a seat to Qui-Gon on the Council, specifically BECAUSE he has different opinions from them and they welcome that.  (Excerpt here.)      “We hope it will also be our gain,” Mace replied. “Qui-Gon Jinn, we hereby offer you a seat on the Jedi Council.”      Had he misheard? No, he hadn’t. Qui-Gon slowly gazed around the circle, taking in the expressions of each Council member in turn. Some of them looked amused, others pleased. A few of them, Yoda included, appeared more rueful than not. But they were serious.      “I admit—you’ve surprised me,” Qui-Gon finally said.“I imagine so,” Mace said drily. “A few years ago, we would’ve been astonished to learn we would ever consider this. But in the time since, we’ve all changed. We’ve grown. Which means the possibilities have changed as well.”      Qui-Gon took a moment to collect himself. Without any warning, one of the turning points of his life had arrived. Everything he said and did in the next days would be of great consequence. “You’ve argued with my methods often as not, or perhaps you’d say I’ve argued with yours.”      “Truth, this is,” Yoda said.      Depa Billaba gave Yoda a look Qui-Gon couldn’t interpret. “It’s also true that the Jedi Council needs more perspectives.” Ultimately, Qui-Gon is the who turns them down and gives up a chance to shape the Jedi Council because he doesn’t like the shape they’re taking.  That he does become less political, but this is after he’s argued that the Jedi should be working to push the Senate harder, so when he has a chance to help with that, he turns it down.  It has nothing to do with caring and loving, it’s about Qui-Gon’s desire to not have to deal with the work himself, when he wants to be more of a hippie Jedi.  (I’ve written a lot about Qui-Gon in M&A, why I actually think it’s really spot-on to someone who can be both really kind and really kind of a dick, but it’s not the most flattering portrayal, even if narrative intention likely didn’t mean what came across to me.  I think this post and this post are probably the most salient ones, but if you want something of an index of the web that’s being woven with all the various media, this one is good, too.) So he’s fighting for Anakin and that’s why it’s the ‘Duel of the Fates’ – it’s the fate of this child. And depending on how this fight goes, Anakin, his life is going to be dramatically different. I have only ever seen George Lucas talk about Anakin’s fate in one instance and it’s this:  “It’s fear of losing somebody he loves, which is the flipside of greed. Greed, in terms of the Emperor, it’s the greed for power, absolute power, over everything. With Anakin, really it’s the power to save the one he loves, but it’s basically going against the Fates and what is natural.“ –George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith commentary I’ve made my case about why I think Anakin’s fate is about that moment in Palpatine’s office, and so I’m not fundamentally opposed that “Duel of the Fates” is about Anakin’s fate, but here’s what George has provably said about the “Duel of the Fates” part of the story: - In the commentary for The Phantom Menace during “Duel of the Fates” and none of Dave’s speculation is even hinted at, there’s more focus on the technical side of things and the most George talks about is that it’s Obi-Wan who parallels Luke in going over the edge during the fight, except that instead of a Sith cutting off a Jedi’s hand, it’s a Jedi cutting a Sith in half, drawing the parallels between them. - He does say of the funeral scene that this is where Obi-Wan commits to training Anakin and how everything is going to go (though, in canon we see that Obi-Wan still struggles with this a bit, but Yoda is there to support him and nudge him into committing even more to Anakin, because the Jedi are a supportive community to each other).  This is some solid evidence for that Obi-Wan is already caring about Anakin beyond just Qui-Gon. - Then here’s what he says about the “Duel of the Fates” fights and themes of them in "All Films Are Personal": George Lucas: “I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course. I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person. “We needed to establish that, but at the same time, we wanted the ultimate sword fight, because they were all very good. It sort of predisposes the sword fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan later on. There’s real purpose to it. You have to establish the rules and then stick with them. The scene illustrates just how Jedi and Sith fight and use lightsabers.” “So Qui-Gon loses, of course. So the father figure, he knew what it meant to take this kid away from his mother when he had an attachment, and he’s left with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trains Anakin at first out of a promise he makes to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him.  We’ll get to the “attachment to his mother” thing in a bit--but, for now, let’s just say, George Lucas’ words on this are not that attachment to her was a good thing. Fair enough that “not because he cares about him” is up to personal interpretation, but canon has also addressed the topic of Obi-Wan’s treatment of Anakin and Obi-Wan stepped up to the plate on this.  In addition to how we see Obi-Wan REPEATEDLY being there for Anakin and being concerned and caring about him, they specifically talk about Qui-Gon and overcome this hurdle.

No, Obi-Wan is not Anakin’s father figure, on that we definitely agree.  Anakin never really even treats Obi-Wan like a father--he says “you’re the closest thing I have to a father” in Attack of the Clones, as well as he says Obi-Wan practically raised him in The Clone Wars “Crystal Crisis” story reels, but Anakin has never actually acted like Obi-Wan is his father--”then why don’t you listen to me?” Obi-Wan points out in AOTC--as well as Obi-Wan glides past those remarks, which I’ve always taken that he doesn’t want to reject Anakin’s feelings, knowing that Anakin can be sensitive about them, but neither does he want to confirm them. This does not mean Obi-Wan was not supportive, caring, and loving.  He says, “I loved you!” to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, he asks after him and if he’s sleeping well in Attack of the Clones, and even George Lucas himself said that the elevator scene was set up TO SHOW OBI-WAN AND ANAKIN CARE FOR EACH OTHER:

PUTTING THE REST UNDER A READ MORE FOR A BETTER LENGTH REBLOGGABLE VERSION, IF  YOU WANT.

This is further evidenced by how the Jedi do see themselves as family, they just don’t need to put it into strict nuclear family dynamics:     - “You were my brother, Anakin!  I loved you!”  [–Obi-Wan Kenobi, Revenge of the Sith]      - “We are brothers, Master Dibs.” [–Mace Windu, Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu]      - “Did your parents bicker?” she asked. “The adoptive ones, I mean.”         A slow smile broke across Ashla’s face, curling first one side of her mouth and then the other. Whatever she was remembering, Kaeden could tell it was good.         "All the time,“ Ashla said, almost as if she were talking to herself. [–Kaeden Larte, Ahsoka Tano, Ahsoka]      -  Vos, brought to the Temple even younger than most, felt that he had hundreds of brothers and sisters, and it seemed that whenever he went into the dining hall he ran into at least half of them. [Dark Disciple]       - “It was not his birthplace, exactly, but the Jedi Temple was where Quinlan Vos had grown up. He’d raced through its corridors, hidden behind its massive pillars, found peace in its meditation hall, ended-and started-fights in rooms intended for striking blows and some that weren’t, and sneaked naps in its library. All Jedi came here, at some point in their lives; for Quinlan, it always felt like coming home when he ran lightly up the stairs and entered the massive building as he did now.” [Dark Disciple] Brothers, sisters, and other more non-traditional kinds of family are not lesser and Obi-Wan and Anakin absolutely were family, just as the Jedi are all family to each other, so, no, there was no “failing” Anakin, except in Anakin’s mind, perhaps.  (In that, I can agree.  But not on a narratively approved level, canon too thoroughly refutes that for me.) Rebels as well pretty thoroughly shows that non-traditional families are meaningful and just as important--we may joke that Hera is “space mom”, but she’s not actually Ezra or Sabine’s mother, Kanan is not actually their father, and even if they sometimes stray into aspects of those roles (as the Jedi do as well in the movies and TCW), that they don’t need that traditional nuclear family structure.  Mentor figures--and Kanan is Ezra’s mentor--are just as meaningful and needful as a “dad”.  And I’m kind of :/ at the implication that anyone without a dad/father figure or mom/mother figure is being “failed”. When they get Anakin, they find him on Tatooine, he says “Why do I feel like we’ve found another useless lifeform?” He’s comparing Anakin to Jar Jar and he’s saying “this is a waste of our time, why are we doing this, why do you see importance in these creatures like Jar Jar Binks and this ten-year-old boy? This is useless.” Whether or not Obi-Wan is being genuinely dismissive in this movie (I think you could make a case either way), the idea that Qui-Gon is better than Obi-Wan about this, as shown through Jar Jar isn’t exactly very supported given how Qui-Gon and Jar Jar first exchange words:

QUI-GON: “You almost got us killed. Are you brainless?”   JAR JAR:  “I spake.”   QUI-GON: “The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.” Qui-Gon is just as bad as everyone else to Jar Jar, he’s not somehow elevated above them. It’s also baffling because, Dave, I have watched your show.  The Jedi are specifically shown to be kind to people and creatures, not considering them “useless”.  Henry Gilroy (who was the co-writer for The Clone Wars and frequently appeared in featurettes on the same level as Dave Filoni) explicitly draws this to The Jedi Way, that “life is everything to the Jedi“, when he said this about the Ryloth episodes:

(Caps cribbed from Pan’s blog, because I cannot make another gif, save me, please.)      Henry Gilroy in an Aggressive Negotiations Interview:  "Obi-Wan truly is a Jedi in that he’s like, ‘Okay, I’m not going to murder these creatures [in the Ryloth arc of The Clone Wars].  They’re starving to death.  They’ve basically been unleashed against these people as a weapon, but it’s not their fault. They’re just doing what they do.  They’re just animals who wanna eat.’     "So the idea was–and I think there was an early talk about how, 'Oh, yeah, he’ll go running through them and slicing and dicing them and chop them all up or whatever, and save his guys.  And I’m like, 'Yeah, but that’s not really the Jedi way.  He’s not just gonna murder these creatures.’     "And I know the threat is [there], to save one life you have to take one, but the idea of him [is]: why can’t Obi-Wan just be more clever?  He basically draws them in and then traps them.     "It says something about who the Jedi are, they don’t just waste life arbitrarily.  And someone could have gone, 'Oh, yeah, but it would have been badass if he’d just ran in there with his lightsaber spinning and stabbed them all in the head!’  And 'Yeah, you’re right, I guess he could be that, but he’s trying to teach his clones a lesson right then, about the sanctity of life.’       "That is the underlying theme of that entire episode.  Which is:  A tactical droid is using the people as living shields.  Life means nothing to the Separatists.  The droids.  But life is everything to the Jedi.  And even though he doesn’t have to say that, it’s all through the episode thematically.“ It’s also Obi-Wan who teaches Anakin about kindness to mindless creatures in the Obi-Wan & Anakin comic:

"These beasts are nearly mindless, Anakin.  I can feel it.  They are merely following their nature, they should not die simply because they crossed our path. Use the Force to send them on their way.” Now, fair enough if you want to say Obi-Wan was taught by Qui-Gon, but also Qui-Gon is dead by that point and Obi-Wan growing into being more mature is his own accomplishment, not Qui-Gon’s, especially given that we see Qui-Gon himself being pretty dismissive to Jar Jar in TPM. This isn’t unique thing either, Padme is incredibly condescending to Jar Jar in “Bombad Jedi” and expresses clear annoyance with him to C-3PO when sighing over him.  Jar Jar is a character you kind of have to warm up to, pretty much the only one we’ve seen consistently being favorable to him is Yoda (and maybe Anakin, though, Anakin doesn’t really interact with him a ton) and Mace Windu warms up to him considerably in “The Disappeared” and even specifically is shown to be teaching him and helping him, which is a huge theme of the Jedi and how much they care.

So, ultimately, the point I’m winding my way towards is--the other Jedi do show kindness and consideration to Jar Jar Binks, including characters like Mace Windu, so if you’re judging the Jedi based on that, the conclusion of Qui-Gon somehow being more compassionate and loving is really pretty thoroughly disproved by The Phantom Menace and The Clone Wars themselves. So, he’s a brother to Anakin eventually but he’s not a father figure. That’s a failing for Anakin. He doesn’t have the family that he needs. He loses his mother in the next film. He fails on this promise that he made, “mother, I’m going to come back and save you”. So he’s left completely vulnerable and Star Wars is ultimately about family.  You could be charitable and say this is just from Anakin’s point of view that it’s a “failing”, but within the context of what Dave’s saying, it’s clearly meant as a more narratively approved take, not just Anakin’s point of view, and I really, really dislike the idea that Anakin--or anyone, really--needs a traditional nuclear family, ie a “mom” and/or a “dad”, or else it’s a “failing” for them. Setting aside that the idea that Qui-Gon would need to be Anakin’s dad to be kind to hi (which is ?????) is contradicted by The Clone Wars as well.  Yes, Qui-Gon is warm with Anakin in several scenes, which is what Dave is presumably drawing on to show that Qui-Gon believed the Jedi should be caring and loving, but you know who else is warm to younglings?  OTHER JEDI COUNCIL MEMBERS.

Those two scenes have the exact same kind of warmth to them.  Ie, THE JEDI ALL BELIEVED IN BEING LOVING AND KIND, NOT JUST QUI-GON.  The things evidenced to show Qui-Gon was loving and kind are evidenced just as much in other Council members, in Dave’s own show. As a bonus--have Mace Windu, known Jedi Council member, being super kind and loving towards a young Twi’lek girl he just met in a canon comic:

But I know that this is about the way the Council treated Anakin in The Phantom Menace testing scene, but here’s the thing--when I go back and I watch that scene and the Jedi aren’t ever mean to him, they’re neutral in an official testing situation, where they are trying to determine if he’s able to adapt to the Jedi ways.  They never once say he’s bad for holding onto his fear, only that he does--which Anakin digs his heels in and gets angry about, he can’t really even admit that he’s afraid and that’s a huge deal for the Jedi. I’ve made a longer post about it here (and here), but the basic gist is: - That scene has Yoda giving the famous “Fear leads to the dark side” speech which is almost word for word how George Lucas describes how the Force works, showing the Jedi are narratively correct - “Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi” may be from the sequels, but it is thoroughly supported by the movies and TCW and Rebels and even supplementary canon material, including that the Jedi literally design their tests around both Masters and Padawans for it (Ilum, the Jedi Temple on Lothal, etc. - Anakin cannot admit to his fears in that TPM scene - We have examples of Jedi younglings do admit to their fears and the point isn’t not to have them, but to face them--the younglings in “The Gathering” are the most blatant example of this, but it’s also pretty much the entire theme of Jedi: Fallen Order, especially when Cal goes to Ilum to face his fears and get another kyber crystal. The point isn’t that Anakin--who has very good reasons to be afraid! nothing in the story or the Jedi have said he didn’t!--is wrong or bad, but that he’s not a great fit for the Jedi life because he is “unwilling to accept [Jedi philosophy] emotionally”.  And they’re right about this, because this is how George Lucas describes Anakin in commentary: “The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can’t hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them.”  --George Lucas, Attack of the Clones commentary And so this brings us to A T T A C H M E N T, which, yeah, we’ve been having this discussion forever, but I’m going to state it again:  Within Star Wars, ATTACHMENT IS NARRATIVELY A BAD THING.  It is consistently tied to possessive, obsessive relationships, to greed and an unwillingness to let things go when it’s time (letting go is a huge theme in Star Wars) and equating love with attachment is fundamentally wrong according to George Lucas’ Star Wars worldbuilding: “The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth,” he continues, “They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people-- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death.” --George Lucas, The Making of Revenge of the Sith If attachment and love were the same thing, then he would be saying, “They should love their enemies, they should love the Sith.  But they can’t love.”  The way George makes the distinction shows that, no, attachment and love aren’t the same thing at all, attachment is not caring.  Further, there’s another instance of him showing there’s an important distinction between relationships and attachment and the association of attachmets with possession:  "Jedi Knights aren’t celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships.” --George Lucas, BBC News interview So, yes, when Anakin is attached to people, it is directly tied to obsession, possession, and greed, all things of the dark side: “He turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can’t let go of his mother; he can’t let go of his girlfriend. He can’t let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you’re greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you’re going to lose things, that you’re not going to have the power you need.”  --George Lucas, Time Magazine  “But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he’s been prepping for this, but that’s the one where he’s sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate.“ --George Lucas, Attack of the Clones commentary ATTACHMENT IS BAD IN STAR WARS AS THEY DEFINE IT. Finally, I’m going to circle back to: Because Qui-Gon is different than the rest of the Jedi and you get that in the movie; and Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows he’s the father that Anakin needs. Because Qui-Gon hasn’t given up on the fact that the Jedi are supposed to actually care and love and that’s not a bad thing. Here’s the thing about this:  You know who else, by this logic, Qui-Gon should have been a father to?  OBI-WAN KENOBI. This isn’t said as “Anakin specifically needs a father” (which I think would be an interesting idea to bandy about and I’m not disagreeing, though, it’s complicated because of what Anakin refuses to accept emotionally), it’s said in a bigger context, that Qui-Gon is better than the other Jedi because he understands the need for fathers (and thus this ties into Return of the Jedi) and he’s ahead of the other Jedi, who apparently think loving and caring about people are bad things, but Qui-Gon does not treat Obi-Wan like his son.  Or, if he does, he’s not exactly a stellar dad about it. Within Master & Apprentice, there’s an incredibly consistent theme of how Qui-Gon thinks supportive things about Obi-Wan, but never says them aloud.  He thinks he should talk to Obi-Wan about the upcoming decision to be on the Council and then never does.  He could have explained why he kept Obi-Wan training the basics but he never does.  There are multiple instances showing that Qui-Gon is actually really, really bad at actually handling a young apprentice who needs him to talk to them about important things.  Qui-Gon continues this in From a Certain Point of View where he still never talked to Obi-Wan about everything that happened, even after he became a Force Ghost.     Damn, damn, damn. Qui-Gon closed his eyes for one moment. It blocked nothing; the wave of shock that went through Obi-Wan was so great it could be felt through the Force. Qui-Gon hadn’t thought Kirames Kaj would mention the Jedi Council invitation. It seemed possible the soon-retiring chancellor of the Republic might not even have taken much note of information about a new Council member. --Master & Apprentice     That comment finally pierced Qui-Gon’s damnable calm. There was an edge to his voice as he said, “I suspected you would be too upset to discuss this rationally. Apparently I was correct.”     “I thought you said my reaction was understandable,” Obi-Wan shot back. “So why does it disqualify me from hearing the truth?”    Qui-Gon put his hands on his broad belt, the way he did when he was beginning to withdraw into himself. “…we should discuss this at another time. Neither of us is his best self at the present.” --Master & Apprentice     Obi-Wan walked toward the door, obviously outdone. “At the beginning of my apprenticeship, I couldn’t understand you,” he said. “Unfortunately, that’s just as true here at the end.”     Only yesterday they had worked together as never before. How did Qui-Gon manage to get closer to Obi-Wan at the same time he was moving further away?     Just before Obi-Wan would leave the room, Qui-Gon said, “Once, you asked me about the basic lightsaber cadences. Why I’d kept you there, instead of training you in more advanced forms of combat.”     Obi-Wan turned reluctantly to face him again. “I suppose you thought I wasn’t ready for more. The same way I’m not ready to believe in all this mystical—”     “That’s not why.”     After a long pause, Obi-Wan calmed to the point where he would listen. “Then why, Qui-Gon?”     “Because many Padawans—and full Jedi Knights, for that matter—forget that the most basic technique is the most important technique. The purest. The most likely to protect you in battle, and the foundation of all knowledge that is to come,” Qui-Gon said. “Most apprentices want to rush ahead to styles of fighting that are flashier or more esoteric. Most Masters let them, because we must all find our preferred form eventually. But I wanted you to be grounded in your technique. I wanted you to understand the basic cadences so well that they would become instinct, so that you would be almost untouchable. Above all, I wanted to give you the training you needed to accomplish anything you set your mind to later on.”     Obi-Wan remained quiet for so long that Qui-Gon wondered if he were too angry to really hear any of what he’d said. But finally, his Padawan nodded. “Thank you, Qui-Gon. I appreciate that. But—”     “But what?”     “You could’ve said so,” Obi-Wan replied, and then he left. --Master & Apprentice     "I owe you that. After all, I’m the one who failed you.“     "Failed me?”     They have never spoken of this, not once in all Qui-Gon’s journeys into the mortal realm to commune with him. This is primarily because Qui-Gon thought his mistakes so wretched, so obvious, that Obi-Wan had wanted to spare him any discussion of it. Yet here, too, he has failed to do his Padawan justice. --From a Certain Point of View, “Master and Apprentice” (Further, in Master & Apprentice, Qui-Gon thinks that the Jedi give Rael Averross--who is HUGELY paralleled to Anakin--too many exceptions, were too soft on him because he came to the Jedi later than most and has trouble thinking of them as his family, and he thinks they should have been stricter with him.) It’s also readily apparent within The Phantom Menace itself:

You can take some charitable views of this scene, that Qui-Gon was pushed into a corner where he had few other options (and this is the view I generally take even!), but this is after the entire movie where he’s never once indicated that Obi-Wan was ready, has instead indicated that he still has much to learn (not just of the Living Force, but in general), as well as made it clear that he’s still teaching Obi-Wan, like on the Trade Federation ship. And I do think Obi-Wan got over this because he understood, because Obi-Wan actually is a very selfless person, he clearly cares (which is furthered by how we see him warm up to Anakin very quickly), but look at their faces. This was not a good moment, and they do somewhat make up, where Qui-Gon says that Obi-Wan has been a good apprentice, that he’s wiser than Qui-Gon and he’ll be a great Jedi--but if we’re counting that as Qui-Gon being this great Jedi, then you can’t say Obi-Wan failed Anakin, given that we show him doing the exact same thing, except better.  He tells Anakin, “You are strong and wise and will become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be.”, echoing Qui-Gon’s words, but also he never threw Anakin aside for someone else. This is kind of a major undercurrent throughout The Clone Wars, where Obi-Wan never takes another apprentice, where he continues to teach Anakin, to support him, even to the point of occasionally co-Mastering Ahsoka with him.  “This has been quite a journey for our Padawan.” Qui-Gon’s treatment of Obi-Wan in this scene isn’t the worst, he’s kind about it later (though, he never actually specifically apologizes for this), but we can see that this is a moment where Qui-Gon hurts Obi-Wan and knows it. And you know what George Lucas has to say about Qui-Gon?  This: “So here we’re having Qui-Gon wanting to skip the early training and jump right to taking him on as his Padawan learner, which is controversial, and ultimately, the source of much of the problems that develop later on.”  –George Lucas, The Phantom Menace commentary There’s nothing about Qui-Gon being right or better than the other Jedi, but instead that Qui-Gon’s actions here are a source of much of the problems that develop later on. So, ultimately, I liked some points Dave made in that speech, it’s a beautiful and eloquent one, but I thoroughly disagree with his interpretation of George’s intentions for Qui-Gon and I thoroughly disagree that that’s what the movies, The Clone Wars (DAVE’S OWN SHOW), and the supplementary canon show about Qui-Gon and the other Jedi.  I still stand by my appreciation of Dave’s contributions to SW as a whole, I think he does a really good job at making Star Wars, but he doesn’t always get everything right and this is one thing where I think the canon and George’s commentary show otherwise, as much as I love his desire to defend the prequels’ importance in the story.  Because, my friend, I have felt that every single day of my SW life.

[twilightofthe]

@nerdgatehobbit Hey! Thanks for the question! Ik you asked this to my main but imma respond on my SW blog if that’s okay?

So whew that’s a big question. Do I honestly think that Dave kept Obi Wan and Padmé and then Anakin and Satine from interacting in the TCW show because they didn’t want shipping wars?

(Remember, these are all just my personal opinions. I do me and you do you!)

Short version? Yes and no. Long version? Under the cut because I can never shut up.

Firstly, I don’t wanna say this was all Dave’s decision. He was one of the top guys in charge of TCW, yes, but he was far from the only one, there was an entire creative team working on the project, and during the time of TCW’s original six seasons Lucasfilms was not owned by Disney yet and George Lucas himself had a very large amount of creative control over the entire show. So I don’t really think it’s fair at all to point fingers at any choices the show made and go “yep that’s completely 100% Dave’s fault alone”.

I also don’t quite think they were concerned about shipping wars in the way ATLA had them. Avatar’s shipping wars were so absolutely toxically rancid that they legit drove me right out of that fandom. I’m still hesitant to come back during the current renaissance because of them. Star Wars, prior to the Sequel Trilogy, never had shipping wars close to that calibre of pure nastiness. The fandom was a godawful cesspool that fought to the death on most aspects of the franchise, this has always been true, but shipping, if I’ve read right, was somehow never really one of those hot button issues within fandom. I don’t think Lucasfilms kept the Clone Wars four apart because they were afraid of fans fighting over ships.

That being said, Lucasfilms HAS always been Very Strict on how they want their characters to be seen, romantic-wise, way back to when they would terrorize Original Trilogy slash shippers back in the 80’s and 90’s with threats of legal action. It’s part of why they were Very Firm in their insistence that they had absolutely nothing to do with all the Luke/Mara Jade EU stuff. You either abided by LF’s canonical romances or not at all in their world. So yes, in the case of Obi Wan and Padmé, I absolutely think the writing team’s decision to keep the pair of them apart was almost entirely so fans didn’t ship them together.

Why do I think this? Because there is no other rational reason why Obi Wan and Padmé haven’t had a single second of screentime in TCW that hasn’t had either Anakin or Satine also in the room as a buffer. Not when Revenge of the Sith EXPLICITLY portrays their relationship as relatively close friends who care about each other. So nope, I genuinely think the show just doesn’t want the fans to consider any other relationship for Padmé besides Anakin.

But why would they do this just to her and Obes? Obi Wan and Padmé both have other friends of different genders, why don’t they worry about us shipping THEM? Well for Obi Wan’s case, it can be excused that he flirts with everyone, so we’re conditioned to think that it’s never anything serious, and none of the other characters are married to the main character of the series. This is entirely because of Padmé’s position. Yes, she has other male friends, but either they’re nonhuman and not conventionally attractive so the series doesn’t see them as a threat, they’re Clovis, who they actively show Anakin going into a jealous fit over, or they’re Bail, who can be excused by the fact that he’s already married and also because he’s never actively shown as in competition with Anakin for anything, so he’s not threatening either.

Obi Wan, on the other hand, is a major threat to Anidala in the show’s eyes. They already constantly make a point to compare him and Anakin in almost every opportunity. Which is strange, the show’s decision to force them into the role of narrative foils to each other when in the movies that isn’t the case at all— Obi Wan is much more of a foil to Sidious and Anakin’s foil is Luke —but yeah, the show very often has Obes and Ani going through similar situations with competing viewpoints— ESPECIALLY their canon romances, and I won’t rant about how the show’s attempted Anidala and Obitine parallels fall apart under scrutiny right now but if yinz want the rant sometime let me know.

Obi Wan also has the canonical ability to charm the pants off of literally everyone he meets. Nearly everyone in canon is in love with him, 80% of the fandom at least is in love with him, and I KNOW most of the crew was in love with him too. Anakin, on the other hand, has a very abrasive personality and is much easier to dislike. The show was ALREADY terrified of the fans not liking or wanting to root for Anakin to the point that they reworked his entire personality to make him more palatable to his critics from the movies. Plus, Obidala fans already existed! Since the first and second PT movies, a big group of people already shipped these two because they already thought Obi Wan was a preferable match to Padmé than Anakin. The studio did not want to encourage this.

So yes, I think it was a combination of the show’s tendency to already try and get the fans to compare Obi Wan to Anakin for everything else plus their insecurity in Anakin’s image and likeability as it was, that they did Not want the handsome charming not-future-evil guy around the leading lady and threatening her canon romance by existing as a possibly better option. So Obi Wan and Padmé got no stories together, just kinda throwing the opening ROTS left them in the garbage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The worst part is, there is so many potential places in TCW where Obi Wan and Padmé could talk to each other, like during her investigation into her friend’s murder, during the Clovis arc, bits during the Malevolence arc, the earlier Naboo crisis arcs, even the one time where she’s just hosting a damn party and wants to invite her friends gahhhhhhhh

Anakin and Satine, I also think yes, but this is also a case of half and half because Satine isn’t nearly as major a character as the other three are, and out of the nine episodes she appears in, she only has more than a singular line in seven of them, and out of those seven, only two of them aren’t revolves entirely around building her relationship with Obi Wan. So really, there is a defence for the writers here in noting that there’s not as much room to explore Satine’s character as it is, let alone trying to shoehorn in a scene with Anakin.

Except no, I’m not gonna give them that defence because in the two episodes where she only has a speaking line or less— Obi Wan’s funeral and the Ahsoka and Lux meet Death Watch ep —I can already easily think of ways she and Anakin could have really meaningful interactions in them both. Y’all have already heard my bit on how they could have a real important conversation at the funeral, but y’all HAVEN’T seen my idea for a rewrite of the Carlac ep where it’s a two-parter, Anakin comes with Ahsoka and Padmé to the negotiations on Mandalore, and it ends up with a subplot of Anidala chasing after Ahsoka and Lux with Satine as the put-upon third wheel and we get foreshadowing to Satine being Bo Katan’s sister, so when the reveal happens the next season it actually means something.

So yeah, it was partially because of timing constraints, but it was also DEFINITELY in part because they didn’t want Satine being shipped with Anakin— which ppffffft, if they were brave enough to actually try writing these two in a conversation in-character, they’d understand how much of a not-worry this would be xD —because the show is set on the fact that despite maybe there being other flings at some point, Obi Wan and Satine are each other’s one true tragic love (Or, at least Obi Wan is Satine’s. He’s always had more freedom and decision than she has in this narrative, and that’s always kinda bugged me). So, that means Satine can’t interact with any men unless they’re gonna betray her trust and try to kill her by the end of the episode, because the show needs Obi Wan to have a loyal, steady, good girlfriend because he is a good man.

(And yes, before anyone says it, I have heard the more unpleasant rumors behind why exactly Obi Wan was given a girlfriend in the show, but as I’ve yet to see any official proof of them besides fandom salt, I’m not gonna spread them because those are hefty accusations to throw around).

So yeah, Satine can’t talk to Anakin partially because time constraints, but also because she isn’t allowed to talk to any other nice men besides Obi Wan and her son (no I don’t particularly like the Korkie Kenobi thing, but it is blatantly obvious that that is what the show was implying and I’m not gonna pretend otherwise), and Obi Wan and Padmé can’t talk to each other entirely because the show saw Obidala as a threat to Anidala.

Again, just my opinions and things I noticed, y’all are more than free to disagree and discuss with me.

[thebluelemontree]

summer-turtle

  Would you ever write same-sex relationships...

Probably because a lot of people don’t trust Myranda with Sansa. This is backed up by Mya/Sansa being quite popular, and Mya being more trustworthy.

Yeah, well, people also tend to only take cursory glances at minor characters.  I can see why people think that, but they are also wrong, and I need to rant about it. LOL.  People who have that assumption that Mya = good, Myranda = bad, forget that Mya and Myranda are “close as sisters.”  They are best friends of similar age and grew up together.  So Mya, who already has serious trust issues from her father’s abandonment, would be “close as sisters” for years with a supposedly untrustworthy jealous schemer?  Myranda is smart and isn’t forthcoming on some things, but that doesn’t make her ill-intentioned toward Sansa.  That doesn’t really add up when we look at everything.

It’s Littlefinger that fears Myranda for being “shrewder than her father.”  So her father, Nestor Royce, is the one taking bribes from Littlefinger and supports his moves to take power as Lord Protector after Lysa’s convenient death and taking custody of Robert.  If Littlefinger fears Myranda’s interference, it’s because she’s not on board with her father being Littlefinger’s ally.  And that was before Littlefinger’s move to betroth Sansa to HtH.   "Soon or late you must meet Myranda Royce," Petyr had warned her. "When you do, be careful. She likes to play the merry fool, but underneath she's shrewder than her father. Guard your tongue around her." 

Personally, I think that if Littlefinger is wary of Myranda Royce, that’s a good thing.  She’s shrewd.  She’s not buying into his bullshit.  So Myranda is already suspicious of what Littlefinger is doing, so of course, she wants to meet this “daughter” of his that is so close to Robert Arryn.  What’s her part in all this?  Is Alayne a victim and forced into a situation against her will?  Or is she a willing participant in LF’s scheme?  And since she knows Alayne is really Sansa, the big question would be what the heck is Sansa Stark doing with Littlefinger?  She’s wanted for regicide in KL.  Is she a murderess that something to do with Lysa’s death too?  We forget that Myranda might have good reasons to not trust Sansa at first until she gets to know her better.  Just because we, the readers, know Sansa is not there by choice, doesn’t mean other characters do.  

So she does examine Sansa closely when they ride down the mountain together.  “She studied Alayne's face and chest. "You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger. The maesters say large breasts produce no more milk than small ones, but I do not believe it. Have you ever known a wet nurse with small teats? Yours are ample for a girl your age, but as they are bastard breasts, I shan't concern myself with them."   

So while Myranda is chattering away about boobs, playing the merry fool, she’s disarming Sansa with humor and frivolity so she has an excuse to look at her face and features closely without it being uncomfortable staring, which would make Sansa instantly more guarded.  And Myranda doesn’t have a bastard prejudice.  That’s nonsense.  Her best friend is a bastard, so we know this is all a pretense. :P  When we know that, it seems like Myranda is testing Sansa with different subjects to trigger a reaction:  Lysa’s death, the mention of Jon Snow, if Alayne is still a virgin, how big is her father’s “little finger?” which is a bizarre question to ask, unless she’s trying to figure out what the nature of Sansa and Littlefinger’s relationship is.  Are they lovers and is she his accomplice? She needs to know because Robert Arryn is directly under Alayne’s care and she does seem to genuinely care about Robert.  Mya does too, despite the way Robert treats her.  After the ride down and Myranda seeing the person that Sansa is, especially when she sees Sansa helping Robert cross the stone bridge, I think Myranda comes away convinced that Sansa is a good person and she’s most likely Littlefinger’s victim.  

And that whole HtH subplot?  Myranda was rejected by Lady Anya and Harry long before LF or Alayne were in the picture.  Myranda is a great match on paper for Harry.  The junior branch of house Royce is still an ancient family name.  Catelyn advised Robb to choose an heir from that branch.  The Hardyngs are landed knights, and Harry does have a need to emphasize his more prestigious relations, which he does on his quartered shield.  Myranda is very sex-positive. witty, and fun, but she’s also fat, and Harry is horribly fatphobic.  Lady Anya knows that as she cleaned up the Cissy incident for him.  Of course, Anya rejected Myranda outright without hearing another word because she isn’t going to sour her relationship to her future high lord by betrothing him to a woman that would disgust him.  Now Myranda says it might have been about dowry (which Anya may have told Nestor as an excuse to avoid making a personal insult), but I think Myranda knows it's about her appearance.  Her first reaction to a mention of HtH is that she hopes he gets an STI, which is a pretty strong “fuck that jerk.”  People always love to trot out:

"The first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare, I think. How else to explain why all the Waynwood men are horse-faced? If I were ever to wed a Waynwood, he would have to swear a vow to don his helm whenever he wished to fuck me, and keep the visor closed." She gave Alayne a pinch on the arm. "My Harry will be with them, though. I notice that you left him out. I shall never forgive you for stealing him away from me. He's the boy I want to marry."

"The betrothal was my father's doing," Alayne protested, as she had a hundred times before. She is only teasing, she told herself...but behind the japes, she could hear the hurt.            

So we see Myranda firing back at Anya Waynwood’s appearance. Like “oh yeah, lady, it’s not like you Waynwoods have room to talk about how anyone looks.  Your sons don’t exactly do it for me either.”  Bullshit Myranda’s rejection was about dowry.  Fat people know when they’re being rejected for being fat.  It hurts!  There’s pain behind Myranda’s jokes, yes, not true jealousy.  We know Alayne never stole Harry from her.  Harry rejected her long before.  Alayne has never even met Harry before, so how could she steal him?  Myranda’s attitude toward Harry before the betrothal plot happened was that Harry is an asshole and an irresponsible cad.  She certainly didn’t say she had her heart set on marrying him then only that her father hoped to make a match.  So what is she doing then and how do we make sense of it?  Well, she’s reframing the narrative to a less painful version of events, one to where the reason has nothing to do with her weight and Harry wasn’t a cruel prick to her because I do think Myranda knows her own worth even if guys like Harry don’t.  That she sees herself just as much of a catch as Sansa Stark even if she’s a bigger girl.  Myranda is smart enough to know that whole narrative is bullshit, makes no factual sense, and none of this is Sansa’s doing, but she’s also human, and it really sucks to be grossly devalued like that.  If you asked her what she thought of Harry, she’d probably still say she hopes he gets the pox.  And Sansa’s reaction to her hurt is sympathy, which she gives Myranda over and over, as many times as Myranda needs to hear it every time she brings it up.  She rescues Myranda from being besieged by two gross men ogling at her.  Even with the death of Myranda’s first husband, Sansa reassures her that it wasn’t her fault he had a heart attack while they were having sex.  But behind the jokes, behind the merry fool, is someone who has internalized shame for being a “dreadful slut.”  She’s internalized some of her father’s criticism of the embarrassing way in which she was widowed.  It’s very hard to be jealous and hateful of someone when they treat you with kindness, sympathy, understanding, and support at every turn.  

And if Myranda really wanted to get Sansa out of the way, what is she waiting for?  She’s had weeks and months to reveal her identity and turn her in.  She could easily tell Lyn Corbray who she knows has a beef with Littlefinger and desperately needs the gold.  What’s stopping her?  Nothing.  She hasn’t made one move to betray Sansa.  Not once.  Again, would the supposed good and real friend Mya go along with that if she suspected her CLOSE AS A SISTER BEST FRIEND Myranda was going to harm Sansa in any way?  I don’t think so, because there is no plot to betray Sansa on Myranda’s end.

Later on, in TWOW sample, we learn that Myranda is being threatened by Nestor to marry her off to some nasty unwanted suitor.  Why?  She clearly runs Nestor’s castle capably, and with her family name, he could make a great match for her.  Maybe it’s because Myranda has voiced her opposition to what her father is doing and that is why he’s threatening to get rid of her, probably at Littlefinger’s behest if she’s even thinking of betraying THEM, not Sansa.    

And so what even if there’s a little jealousy there?  Jon was undoubtedly jealous of Robb’s advantages, but he could overcome those feelings and love Robb like a brother.  The love he got out of their relationship was worth more than his feelings of resentment. And readers give Jon that leeway to feel both love and jealousy and not hold it against him.  Girls aren’t granted that.  I hate it when people (general, not you) seem to think girls are incapable of overcoming their jealousies or petty rivalries, especially over a boy.  That any conflict between girls will cause one of them to slam their hand down on the nuclear option and destroy the other.  And I don’t think George is going that direction with Myranda

They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.

By the time they arrived at the gatehouse, both of them were red-faced and panting. Myranda had lost her cloak somewhere along the way.

The girls have a race (a competition), but the race is framed around sisterhood and friendship.  There’s no winner or loser though.  And Myranda lost her cloak (as a marriage symbol) somewhere along the way, and it doesn’t matter because the girls were having too much fun together.  The friendship was more important than any rivalry, and that’s our lead-in scene to Sansa meeting Harry for the first time.               

AND THAT IS WHY I’m all fired up again, and I will make it a point to write a Sansa/Myranda bisexual slow burn with lots of fluff, mutual support, body positivity, and hot sex because both these girls deserve it and I love them with my whole heart XD

[boystownbirdie]

LMWTV4U: GOT S7E5

Welcome back! In case you’re new, this is “Let me watch TV 4 U,” the blog where I watch TV so you don’t have to. I’ll be recapping Game of Thrones, Season 7 Episode 5 and SPOILERS ABOUND SO PROCEED WITH CAUTION.

Tonight’s episode was titled “Eastwatch” but a more fitting title would have been “Don’t I know you from a few seasons ago?” If you’ve been following GoT for awhile, you might know that “unlikely alliances” is one of George R.R.R.R.R. Martin’s go-to-setups. He really gets off on taking 2 characters who are TOTAL OPPOSITES on paper and watching them learn to get along, just like the premise of all sitcoms. Well all of these unlikely pairs have been meeting, forming bonds, and saying goodbye for the past 7 seasons and NOW we’re apparently at the part where we have to watch them meet back up again. It kind of sounds like a kewl idea but idk about you, it just turns into a mess as a viewer because you have to remember how/when/where everyone met before. It’s like watching a livestream of a very tense high school reunion.

All that being said, some shit went DOWN tonight, so let’s go!

First of all, we get a new location on the map in the beginning, Eastwatch! If you’ll recall this is the place where Gingerbae (my fave wildling and #2 crush after Bae- Jon Snow) went to guard the wall at the behest of Bae a few eps ago.

Our first scene takes place right after last week’s epic dragon battle...

We learn that Jaime and Bronn are both still alive and we have to watch Jaime spit up seawater and I’m like who do you think you are, Euron Greyjoy?!? (lol that joke only works if you watched last season, sorry). Bronn is like dude, do you have a death wish? And Jaime is like kind of… cuz my sis Queen Pixie Cut (QPC) is a “shoot the messenger” type and now I have to tell her about all this dragon business.

Speaking of, we get some more hot-dragon-action (and I meant hot as in temp-wise, not sexual...yet...wait til Bae gets his fingers on a dragon). Tyrion is looking around at all the hell Khaleesi hath wrought and seems pretty sad about it. Remember he is a Lannister, so a lot of people who got burnt up were his home-bois.

He walks over to Khaleesi who has rounded up the surviving Lannisters and is looking FLY  AS HELL post-battle scene. Seriously, who does her hair? Probs a Dothraki cuz #goodatbraids. Khaleesi tells all the captured soldiers to kneel before her and declare loyalty to her or get killed. Sams mean dad (SMD) and Sam’s Bro Dickon (SBD) refuse to kneel because they’re #tooproudtobeg and Khaleesi is like, srsly guys? But they are truly #tooproud, so they both get burned up by the dragon, per Khaleesi’s orders. All of this is very not cool with Tyrion and he makes that pretty clear.

Next, we pop over to King’s Landing where Jaime is about to drop some #truth on QPC…

He tells her things are not looking so hot (or are they looking VERY HOT? Get it? Cuz dragons...sorry I’ll stop now) and that the Dothrakis (Khaleesi’s horse people) and dragons will kill them all. QPC suggests they hire mercenaries but Jaime is not feeling it. Then Jaime drops truth bomb #2 and tells QPC that he recently got the scoop that Grandma Tyrell admitted to killing their son Joffrey. See QPC was CONVINCED that Tyrion killed Joffrey which is what eventually led T to flock to #teamkhaleesi. Jaime is maybe able to convince her of this fact and that they might have to surrender to Khaleesi. She’s basically like well, damned if you do, damned if you don’t, ya know? The theme of this scene is TROUBLE IN PARADISE.

Now to the Bae-on-dragon action I promised…

Bae is waiting at the arrivals gate for Khaleesi and #1 dragon like a sad little chauffeur when Mr. Dragon lands right on his toes. Rather than giving Mr. Dragon a wide berth, he walks right up to him and TOUCHES HIS NOSE like he’s friggin’ Moana (Moana fans where you at?) Mr. D is like about to bite at first but then he’s like, naw, you’re cool. Probably because Bae is secretly a Targaryen and they’re all about dragons. Bae asks Khaleesi about her business trip and she’s like I TCOB’ed if that’s what you mean and says “sometimes strength is terrible” but that as leaders, they have to be strong.

Khaleesi then starts to ask Bae about the knife-in-the-heart comment that No-Knuckles (NK) made a few weeks ago and before Bae has to uncomfortably describe his weird Lazarus-situation to her, Stoney shows up, fresh off being cured of his stone disease by none other than Bae’s bestie Sam. The artist formerly known as Stoney (but let’s just keep calling him Stoney for now) is like will you still have me, Khaleesi? And she’s like DOI, OF COORS. And Bae is like oh I knew your dad he was a kewl dude he gave me this sword.

We get a brief interlude with everyone’s fave sooth-sayer, Brandon Stark! He hops into the eyeballs of some birds who fly North to get an update on the ice-zombie-army. As we all suspected, the ice zombies are CLOSER THAN EVER and headed to Eastwatch. This should not be a surprise because every time we check on them they’re just walking further South and unlike humans do not need to stop to eat or pee or get their hair intricately braided.

We pop into Oldtown, where Sam hears about Bran’s report. He tells all the other Maesters that they should listen to him but they, as always, are like naw this shit can’t be real. Also Maester-Jim-Broadbent is like BTW, Sam’s dad and bro just got burnt up but don’t say anything to him.

Back to Dragonstone…

Where  Tyrion and sleevey recap sam's dad and bro getting killed and agree that it was not cool, bro. Sleevey helpfully recalls a time when Khaleesi’s dad was always burning people alive. Sleevey reveals that Bae got a letter in the mail and yes, he did read it which is a FEDERAL OFFENSE, SLEEVEY! You can’t afford to go to prison!

Bae gets his hands on the letter from his bro Bran and learns A LOT. A. Bran is alive. B. Arya is alive. And C. The Night-King (leader of the ice zombies) is coming to Eastwatch. Again, this should be a surprise to no one. He talks things through with Khaleesi and co. to devise a plan and everyone has something to contribute, you guys! Here’s the plan

Tyrion will talk to his bro to try to convince him that ice zombies are real, who will then convince QPC.

NK will use his smugglin’ skills to smuggle T into King’s Landing (at this point it should really be Queen’s landing, right?)

Bae will head up north and capture an ice zombie to bring to everyone for proof. Stoney will use his battling skills to help with this.

Khaleesi is not about to let Bae go, though, probs cuz she wants more hot cave-action. But Bae is like sorry G2G!

Back in Winterfell and trouble is afoot!

Sansa is sitting at her in-charge-table and all the “Northern Lords” (although everyone’s fave 11-year-old-kween is nowhere to be seen) are still griping about Bae being down South with Khaleesi. Sansa doesn’t accept their offer to basically put her in charge, but she doesn’t defend Bae too much either. Arya, who was always besties with Bae when they were all kiddos, is not ok with that. She calls her out on it and notices that Sansa is staying in their mom and dad’s old room. She’s like ummm… you always liked nice things. Which is such a classic Winterfell-burn.

They chat and learn that they have very different views on uniting people and consolidating power. Arya is little more murder-y but Sansa is a little more scheme-y. Which better? IDK I haven’t read “The Art of War.” Basically, Arya knows that Sansa is still a bit power-hungry and calls her out on it. But I did read “Lean In” and I’m like, is that so bad?

Later, we pop back into King’s Landing where Arya is tailing Littlefinger cuz #shedontlikethelooksofthisguy, He’s being shady, as always, handing out poision, scheming with the Northern Lords, and then she sees the Maester give LF a piece of paper and she’s like oooohh I gotta get my hands on that. LF hides the paper in his room but, bitch, didn’t you know Arya is a trained assassin from the face-swapping-cult now?

She finds the paper which looks like this letter that Sansa wrote back in Season 1 when she was being forced by QPC. It’s basically her asking #teamStark to swear loyalty to Joffrey, all of which is irrelevant because most of Team Stark, along with Joffrey, is dead. Then we see LF behind the scenes looking all satisfied. Why you may ask? Well it seems like LF is trying to drive a wedge between the sisters by making Arya distrust Sansa even more. IDK I don’t condone violence but I really just want someone to stab LF.

Back to team Khaleesi, Tyrion and NK roll up on Queen’s Landing…

Tyrion reminds us all that the last time he was here, he killed his dad. NK is like well the last time I was here, you killed my son! You’d think there would be some sort of resolution with that but nope, NK was just throwing it out there! Tyrion heads off to see his bro and NK heads off on a secret mission that IS VERY CUTE, just wait and see.

Bronn sets up a meeting between Tyrion and Jaime, who haven’t seen each other since Jaime saved Tyrion from getting killed (per QPC and their dad’s orders). T proceeded to shoot their dad to death on the toilet, so Jaime is understandably a little peeved. Tyrion explains why he came and asks if Jaime could ask QPC if she might possibly be into checking out an ice zombie if they can get one. Jaime is still peeved but considers this helpful offer.

Meanwhile, we get a reunion of 2 of our faves, NK and Gendry!!!! So non-GoT-watchers, Gendry is this dude who is secretly the son of Robert Baratheon, QPC’s ex-hubby and the former king. Only a few ppl knew this, and to protect him from QPC, he got sent North to the wall with Arya. He and Arya developed a cute lil’ friendship and then he met up with some Lord-of-Light (LOL) worshippers, the same ones who the Hound (remember from ep 1 of this season) is now traveling with. Then the red witch lady came and took him to Stannis to have leeches eat his blood but before the red witch could kill him, NK set him free and sent him on a rowboat back to King’s Landing. So here we are…

They reunite and it’s adorbs, since Gendry is like thanks for saving my life, you were right I ended up being safe here. And NK is like oh good, so I have a favor to ask, will you come with us? It’s for- and before he can finish Gendry is like NP my bags are packed let’s go. And NK is like do you want more info...or… and Gendry is like nope this place is the pits, let’s go, lemme get my hammer. And I AM FEELING THIS HAMMER y’all, Gendry is basically Thor of GoT now. And he shall henceforth be known as New-Thor.

NK and New-Thor head to the boat to leave Queen’s Landing and encounter some guards who aren’t gonna let them off that easy. Just when they bribe their way out of there, Tyrion shows up and the guards are like...you look familiar? So New-Thor kindly uses his hammer and demolishes those dudes, leaving T and NK both stunned and impressed.

While we’re still at Queen’s Landing, we see Jaime knocking on QPC’s door, but she’s busy with Maester Qyburn, having some deep discussion. We also learn Qyburn is the hand-of-the-queen (did we know this before? It was news to me). Jaime is like what we’re y’all talking about, and QPC is like I’m sorry, HIPAA, I can’t tell you. Then she tells him that she knows he met with Tyrion and that he should punish Bronn for setting that up. She also hints that she’s willing to do a collab with Khaleesi but then she’s like “we will defeat whatever stands in our way” which doesn’t sound very collab-y to me.

Then, in a major reversal, SHE DROPS A TRUTH BOMB ON HIM and tells him she’s PREGNANT and the baby is HIS. He is shook but also very happy because he loves her a lot. He’s like who you gonna say knocked you up? And she’s like it’s 2017, bitch, I’ll say it was my twin bro cuz #hatersgonnahate. Do we believe she is really preggo? I do not. Classic desperation move when you see your man starting to slip away. But nonetheless he is happy about it so there’s that.

Next, we head back to Dragonstone...

Where Bae meets New-Thor in Bae’s fave place, a cave! They reminisce about how their dads were friends and New-Thor calls out Bae on being a little shorty-pie. We think Bae is gonna be like “ah hell naw” but instead he’s like LOL you’re right bro. New-Thor offers to head North with Bae to kill some ice-zombies with his hammer. NK is a little peeved because he told New-Thor not to tell anyone who his dad was and not to get himself into trouble. NK’s like well don’t mind me, I only lived to be an old man so what do I know about surviving? It’s a very cute scene and it all plays out like a dad playfully chastising his sons for picking a college that’s too far away.

On the shore we get some goodbyes. Tyrion and Khaleesi both say goodbye to Stoney and Khaleesi is especially sappy about it. Then she says goodbye to Bae, who is busy loading up his boats with zombie-killing-rocks from the caves. She’s like, so…I’ll call you next week? And Bae’s like umm….maybe? But you know they’re both fighting the urge to pop into a cave for a quick makeout sesh.

Next, we see Sam and Gilly in Oldtown reading books…

Gilly happens upon the MOST IMPORTANT INFO EVER in a book, which Sam, in a very-un-Sam-like way, completely ignores. It’s infuriating. Basically she finds out that Bae’s real parents, Rhaegar Targaryen (Khaleesi’s bro) and Lyanna Stark (Daddy Stark’s sis) were legit married when she had Bae, which means he is the ONE-TRUE-HEIR to the iron throne or whatevs. Sam, however, is too peeved about the Maesters not listening to him (or Bran for that matter) and gathers up some of the best books in the library (and he is in for the late fee OF A CENTURY cuz you know he won’t return ‘em) and heads out of there.  It’s a frustrating scene. I just..can’t...

Finally, we make it to Eastwatch...

Where we get to check in with Gingerbae my #2 boo. Bae tells him the plan to trap the ice zombie and bring it back as proof and Gingerbae is like you are cuckoo. NK is there to confirm that yes, Bae is cuckoo, and no, he’s not going North with them. But on the docket we do have New-Thor with his hammer and Stoney with his un-stoned-hands and arms to help! Gingerbae is like well I know some other dudes who want to get up there...cut to…

The Hound and his LOL-ers Eyepatch and Gingerbun (am I the only one who finds Gingerbun kind of attractive?) are in Eastwatch-prison, doing a very poor version of Cellblock Tango from Chicago, the musical. This is the scene where the whole-don’t-I-know-you-from-somewhere gets really messy. No need to dive into all of it, the point is, these people have HISTORY with eachother. But Bae reminds them that since they’re all humans and not zombies, they’re on the same side. So they head out into the deep, cold, winter to trap and ice zombie. And we’re left there.

Let’s recap:

Biggest surprise this ep: QPC IS PREGNANT?!?!?!

Biggest letdown: Seriously Sam. You could not listen to the most important news ever because you were distracted?

Important fashion moments: Khaleesi lookin’ so fly fresh out of battle, Sansa is really rocking those fitted armor gowns

Who died this ep? Sam’s Bro Dickon (RIP) and Sam’s Mean Dad 

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[thebluelemontree]

Ever since the 1st book Sansa was faced with the true/fake knight dichotomy: the KG beat her and her Knight of Flowers wasn't that honorable either (his mare trick). For some people that is one of the reasons why Harry is a good partner for her - he's honest and dislikes false courtesy (much like Sandor). But I fail to see how being honest about your dishonor makes you the TRUE KNIGHT. To me he's just as fake as all the others unlike Sandor who didn't give any vows to break. What's your opinion?

I guess we’re talking about a “good partner” in theory because I really don’t think the signs look all that great for Harry living much longer.  If he shows up at the tourney joust on a red stallion, stick a fork in him.  He’s done.  Besides that, should we honestly expect a marriage option arranged by Littlefinger to turn out good for Sansa?  When has any of his arrangements for her worked out in her favor?

Just so we’re being fair and this isn’t just about rooting for my OTP above other options, Sandor is also bluntly honest about some of the horrible things he has done too.  Not taking vows is him making a protest statement against the institution, but he can sometimes use it to deflect attention from his own bad acts onto the hypocrisy of knights instead.  It’s Sandor’s moments of choosing to be protective and helpful that make us see his potential for true knighthood.  Not his cynical stance on the subject.  He’s full of shit too sometimes.  But as I’ve said before, we have very good reason to believe that Sandor is continuing his trajectory toward true knighthood at his death scene and on the QI serving under a former knight.   

Not being a liar is good, but it’s a pretty low bar to pass.  No one deserves a medal for this.  Harry needs to show us way more than that if I were to believe he could actually be a “good partner.”  I wouldn’t say he dislikes false courtesy.  He’s thoroughly of the Vale and the conservative culture is all about appearances, pedigree, adherence to tradition and chivalric culture, which includes courtesy.  He’s just plain rude is all.  It’s not on principle against courtesy.  He dislikes low born bastards who have the audacity to consider themselves worthy to seek the next Lord of the Eyrie for a marriage prospect.  And he resents that circumstances have forced him to interact with Littlefinger’s bastard in particular.  Obviously he doesn’t mind consorting with low born girls and may fancy himself in love with them at times, but there’s no indication he plans on marrying one of them.  He’s a Hardyng, a minor landed knight house, that through dumb luck finds himself Robert’s heir.  He wants a good marriage to a highborn and trueborn to shore up his pedigree.  That’s why his shield is quartered with the Waynwood and Arryn sigils too.  To emphasize his more prestigious relations.  If he knew she was Sansa Stark he’d be treating her very differently, which was Sansa’s realization about her Loras fantasy.  No Tyrell would ever love a bastard girl, no matter what.  It always comes down to her claim, not her.  

I don’t hate Harry and I don’t think he is the worst person ever, just as Loras isn’t a terrible person for cheating at a tournament.  We’ve seen what truly terrible looks like.  You can’t really get on Loras for cheating at a stupid joust and think that highly about Harry “earning” his knighthood in a tournament rigged for him to win.  TWOW tourney is probably just as rigged.  If Harry doesn’t realize the win was handed to him and that he’s being wooed for influence by Yohn and LF because he’s the next high lord, then he’s monumentally stupid.  Accepting the knighthood when you know you didn’t actually do anything to earn it is just as false and shitty as what Loras did.   

Hey, at least you can say Loras knew how to be faithful to his partner even after Renly died.  I don’t think Harry would be abusive to Sansa, but he’s going to litter the Vale and probably the North too with his bastards and used and discarded women.  It wasn’t “different with Saffron.”  After Harry dumps Cissy for gaining pregnancy weight, Lady Anya arranged for her to be married off to one of her household guards.  How did Cissy feel about that?  Probably not good, but the dishonorable behavior got tidied up for Harry, didn’t it?  Saffron is going to be left pregnant and dishonored too, after all of the words of love he probably gave her.  If you look at the entire Alayne sample chapter there’s a running theme of used, dishonored, and discarded women beginning, middle and end.

Mya Stone arrives in Robert’s bedchamber with hay in her hair and a “scowl” on her face.  Sansa knows Mychel Redfort is around.  Poor Mya loved Mychel, thought he loved her, and had dreams of marrying him.  She’s broken hearted and still longing to be with him, but the tumble in the hay makes her feel worse, not closer to him.  She’s left with nothing but shattered dreams, a soiled reputation, and reminded that tumbles in the hay are all a bastard girl is good for.  

Alayne sharply corrects Robert when he insists he can keep Alayne as his mistress if he can’t marry her.  He’s still a little boy and only partially understands what he’s saying, but she’s giving him good parenting here.  Just because he’s Lord of the Eyrie doesn’t mean he can treat women any type of way, even low born bastards.  He’s not entitled to Alayne just because he wants her or has feelings for her.     

Myranda Royce is slut shamed by her own father because her late husband died of an apparent heart attack while having sex with her, some of which she has internalized.  I don’t think it was the dowry that Lady Waynwood found that unsuitable, because even cadet Royces are an ancient house that also have Stark blood.  There’s more than dowry to think about.  Lady Anya isn’t going to make the mistake of betrothing Harry to a girl he would find unpleasant (dowry or not) and sour a relationship with her future high lord.  IMO, Harry might have rejected the match between them as well because she’s a heavier girl when you consider his intense fatphobia.  Myranda is also not a traditional Vale lady either.  She’s very forward, highly intelligent, sexy, funny, and self-confident as well as competent at running a household.  She would be a joy of a wife for many a man and she’s rejected for the most shallow and judgemental reasons.  It’s hurtful because she knows her own worth.

Then we end on learning about Harry’s character, Cissy’s fate, and what will probably happen to Saffron too.  God forbid Sansa have his child and put on a few pounds.  That doesn’t scream “good partner” to me.  So even if he keeps his mistresses and bastards out of sight, he can still be shallow AF about a woman’s looks, which inevitably change over time.  He already doesn’t think she’s that attractive anyway.  Also if he finds out she’s really Sansa Stark and he suddenly starts treating her much better, that doesn’t say anything good either.  This match is theoretically all good for Harry, but I fail to see how it works out that great for Sansa.                     

The chapter can’t be structured this way for nothing.  George is giving us much to contemplate on about the treatment of women in relationships.  How the stakes are so much higher for them in giving their hearts, bodies, hopes, and dreams to a guy that would be careless with them.  Most of it happens before she even talks to Harry and gets to know him better.  And Sansa is being faced with putting her trust and hope to go home on him and having to give up her body, her dreams, and allow him power over her in return for that gamble.  If that doesn’t happen, she’s stuck in a loveless, faithless marriage in Eyrie, which she hates.  As of right now, it’s the only option that she knows of.  It also shows Sansa isn’t just thinking of what marrying Harry means for her, but she can also place herself in the shoes of other women and the bastard children.  Society will not be kind to them, while men have their fun and make promises they can’t/won’t keep.  

While George might be playing with some aspects of the Loras/Sandor dichotomy in Harry, Harry himself is a poor imitation of either.  Loras could be faithful and his deep, abiding love for Renly is one for the ages.  Sandor cares nothing for her claim and it was never her appearance that drew her to him.  In fact, her highborn status is a frustrating problem that kept him from being closer to her.  Harry is somewhat more like Robert Baratheon without the martial talent, easily attracted to the next shiny new thing.  So there might be some playing with the Robert/Lyanna dynamic thrown in as well, because there’s no reason to suggest that however charmed he might be by Alayne now that the feeling will last.     

The being said, it would be interesting to see if Harry ends up doing something true knight-ish before he goes down.  (I’m 90% sure he is going down.)  If it is the case that Harry has a bit of hero in him, it’s still a tragedy of wasted youth and potential, arrogant and douchey though it may be.  I wouldn’t be shocked if Sansa mourned Harry a bit, because that’s just who she is.  Maybe that kind of ending to his story will allow us to think of Harry a little more fondly rather than see the reality of what marriage to Sansa would be like a few years in.  We didn’t think that highly of Waymar Royce at first, but when it mattered most, the guy went down with real courage.  I’m sad about Loras’s potential fate in Dance, cheating at a tourney be damned.  All these guys have their arrogance and failings, but they could also rise to the occasion too.                                           

[thebluelemontree]

Harry the Heir is such an arrogant douche! But some people say that since he apologized to Alayne at the feast, he's not that bad and their romance is definitely a possibility. Some even go as far as to say that Sansa will fall in love with him and this story gives them Mr Darcy/Elizabeth vibes. What is your opinion on their possible relationship? BTW I don't think Darcy had bastards all over Derbyshire)))

Elizabeth is not tasked with seducing Darcy nor ever intended him to be a love interest.  Darcy was genuinely regretful at learning how his attitudes and behaviors affected other people and set to changing himself.  Not to win Elizabeth over either, but to be a better person and to try to correct his mistakes.  Harry... no.  He’s in his heir position by sheer dumb luck and he acts like Robert Arryn is already dead in the ground.  I don’t think Darcy would be able to identify with who Harry actually is at all.  

Harry apologized because Anya Waynwood made him as she also insisted that he dance with Alayne.  She stands to collect a fat dowry from this.  She’s not forcing Harry to accept the betrothal per se, but she is making him be “nice” and interact with Alayne.  At least enough times so Alayne can presumably seduce him as I’m sure Littlefinger assured her would happen.  It’s such a grudgingly given apology that almost seems like it pains him to sink so low to apologize to a bastard.  I don’t see how it can be read as genuine.  And he only does it after she refuses to dance with him, which I’m sure he was expecting her to just light up and be grateful for his asking.  Not even a please forgive me.

And there he stood, Harry the Heir himself; tall, handsome, scowling. "Lady Alayne. May I partner you in this dance?"

She considered for a moment. "No. I don't think so."

Color rose to his cheeks. "I was unforgiveably rude to you in the yard. You must forgive me." 

Still she’s had enough experience with difficult people to know that sometimes a harsh exterior can hide a suffering soul beneath the surface.  She wants to know the real Harry and look at him with a critical eye.  So she is willing to dig a little deeper, mildly tolerating his rudeness to ask him directly about his bastards.  It seems as though he accepts his natural children well enough, even though he was callous in his treatment of Cissy after her birth.  For a moment, things look like they might be “different with Saffron.”  Sansa could certainly understand if Harry was in love with her and he was being pressured to marry another which would explain his rudeness.  Yet, he’s awful quick to agree to send Saffron away for the mere suggestion of some “spice” with Alayne.  Not that different with Saffron, is it?  

I think it’s clear that Harry’s head is easily turned and what she can expect from him as a husband.  He is not the worst guy ever.  He’s shallow, arrogant, and seems to follow his dick around.  Sansa has seen too much real cruelty to be easily shaken by his behavior.Of all his faults, at least he’s not a liar.  He’s pretty bluntly honest, in fact.  The nicest thing she can come up with to say about Harry is that he has nice teeth and dimples; however, as far as Sansa knows this marriage might be her only chance to go home, which is the only thing she’s ever really wanted.  This scene, I think, goes to show how far Sansa has come in her evaluation of a love interest way more than it points to an actual love interest.  This is not 11/12 year old Sansa that would have shrunk down, cried and blushed, and blamed herself for a handsome knight not liking her.  Nor is she tongue-tied. easily rankled, or naively misunderstanding innuendo (heck she’s making innuendo now!) This is older Sansa learning how to deftly handle and flirt with someone who is overly harsh and bluntly honest to the point of being offensive.  Sound familiar?  ;)

I would say Harry represents a fairly typical type of husband that many wives accept as normal.  The question is can Sansa, who has always dreamed of a mutual love in her marriage, abandon that dream to settle for Harry so she can maybe one day go home and finally be safe?  I don’t think she’ll have to end up making that choice after all, because shit is setup to go down fast and hard in the Vale probably by her second chapter.

George is using a lot of misdirection in the Vale arc and I believe Harry is a red herring.  While we’re all looking toward the Young Falcon and all those untouched, shining knights of the Vale (ahem, knights of summer) to be the answer to our prayers, we’re forgetting all the other hidden players ready to twist the plot.  

Lyn Corbray who is LF’s friend pretending to be his foe but who really is a foe.  What if he found out who Alayne is?  He desperately could use the ransom and it would be a nice little F.U. to LF at the same time.

Ser Shadrich and his team who’ve know who Alayne really is and have been living under LF’s nose for months waiting to strike.

Myranda Royce who also knows who Alayne really is.  We don’t know yet how she’s going to affect things.

Lothor Brune who has a crush on Mya Stone might be set to switch sides if Sansa plays match-maker.

The Mountain Clans who have been armed with steel by Tyrion.  They got a hard on to take the Vale back and are still occasionally brought up as a threat that has never been dealt with.

Yohn Royce is back in Runestone with his forces biding his time for his opportunity to bring LF down. He also has ships, a port, and his own grain stores.

Possibly a catastrophic avalanche from the Giant’s Lance with the Gates of the Moon right in it’s path.

Just focusing on Harry, remember he “earned” his knighthood in a tourney that was rigged for him to win so Yohn could exert influence over the heir against LF.  You think this tourney isn’t rigged for Harry to win by Littlefinger for the same reasons? I think we’re being told this is not the horse we or Sansa should bet on.  We also have the competitor that Alayne will actually give her favor to that just might shake up that tourney outcome judging by tourneys past.  Harry bears some similarities to Ser Hugh of the Vale that was killed by a giant’s lance in the hands of the Mountain at the last tourney Sansa attended. 

They both are arrogant, newly made knights.  

They both sport the Arryn colors and symbols though they aren’t Arryns.  

Both seem to be knighted before they were truly ready, for reasons that have nothing to do with their abilities.  Hugh, squire to Jon Arryn, was knighted by Robert I for Jon’s memory.  Harry for political jockeying.

They are hidden forces in play that they are woefully ill-prepared for and they are charging headlong into.  This doesn’t look good.

I don’t think Harry is long for this world.  And his potential demise fits into the greater themes of Littlefinger’s legacy as Lord Protector in the Vale.  Corruption, bribery, and excess that the majority of lords have been seduced by does not make me feel confident about those knights and grain stores being put to good use.  It’s all lies and Arbor gold built on a foundation of rot.  I see massive waste and snuffed out potential as a very George-esque consequence for this decadent folly on the cusp of winter.  The tourney feast and games feel very Masque of the Red Death with the world falling apart outside and these nobles sequestering themselves in a decadent, glittering daydream.  The Red Death still gets in and pwns everyone. Yeah... :/  I think Sansa’s Vale arc will resolve in an epic, tragic smash by any number of George’s planted wild cards.