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maneaterwithtail · 4 years ago

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Why the resistance to "fan girl" Ms. Marvel?

highlights of the discussion

Popesize1 day ago (edited)

For me, i guess it was the overexposure, and you must like her-attitude, that made me say no. Same with Captain Marvel as the new flagship. Her origin and faith never really mattered to me. I remember finding Dust in one of the young x-team (was it Hellions?) interesting. The obsessive nerd and fan-girling was a bit annoying, i can agree on that. Mostly because the fans i have come to know, never really behaved like that. But it might be more common with girls. What do i know? -But never the big tick-off

Dakina Demino1 day ago

I don't think its the character itself, but rather the relentless media worship of her as some kind of new age comic book Jesus that really took off five years ago. If you said anything that the pros and the media took as negative, you'd get called the usual things like nazi, racist and so on. You'd also get bot blocked on twitter and smeared in a closed community chat room. This has the side effect of reflecting back on Kamala who gets the reputation of being a progressive garbage character. A second point is that less than a year ago, the pros and media were still running smear campaigns against their own consumer bases, painting them as some vast army of zombie nazi kkk Trump voting hate mob made up of Russian cyber bots that wants to gun down immigrants. Kamala is polarizing in that game as she represents two things a lot of Marvel fans hate. One they got attacked by people claiming they are evil, anti minority, gate keeping old white fans and two, the character represents the catalyst of Marvel telling its own consumer base to f**k off in more of less that precise wording. As for me, I'm not angry at Kamala. I'm pissed off that an awesome cyperpunk game series like Dues Ex got axed so the studio could make a game that seems designed from the ground up to start shit and trigger outrage.

Nioh Arcadia1 day ago

As the Target Audience for Kamala I want to like her but (as of right now) I really fucking hate her 😡 She feels like the living embodiment of a subreddit and after G Willow she's Only written as a hyper Melenial 😒. Also like you said she feels like "hey you can see yourself can't you nerd?" It's pretty insulting and lazy. Also her being a mage fan of other Superheros makes her character less interesting because she lacks her own Agency. Now-a-days she's pretty boring and I or anyone else really couldn't give a shit

Raheil Rahman1 day ago

As a Muslim, the comic was groundbreaking. Grant Morrison's "Vinamarama" was the first book that spoke to my experience in my lifetime, but this was a pop extension of that. Her family life, her need to hide her identity from her conservative family, was a great update on Peter Parker. She was a nerdy fangirl, which was fun, and she was a very bubbly and enthusiastic character, which I found entertaining. For a time.

I was turned off by the comic due to the very decompressed pace (obviously to pad a story and sell more issues) and the constant reboots. I haven't read the issues later when she was pushed into Avengers, but that's because all Marvel and DC comics are wearing thin with me. It's all reboots and re-mixes of familiar characters to push some marketing that has nothing to do with comics. I agree with [Comics, by Perch] on this.

Kamala Khan was forced down the fans throats, but there were many fans of her that have nothing to do with her comics (which is the future of all IPs in this business, I think). The market isn't for comics, which I get is your focus, but she was made to be bigger than comics, like or not.

But I don't care, because Kamala Khan has allowed all of us to know and discuss things and issues that we have never done before. Particularly, the arc where they discuss Partition, the division of India into Pakistan and Bangledesh, a tragic event that my father experienced personally, was worth all the over-exposure of this character alone. This was a huge historical event that almost no one has heard of, and this book put a focus on it even among older people of the sub-continent who had never read a comic in their lives, the pages were being shared by email and on Facebook by people my father and mother's age.

Did it sell the comic? Hell no.

But it was a good thing for the comic world, for the Pakistani world, for the American fans, on a whole.

And to be honest Perch, I love your channel, but this very rant plays into the idea OG fans will reject this new character based on her background. Many people say her powers are boring, her character is mediocre, and they're all right, but they, and you, miss the point. I get she's been pushed down our throats and I agree that she isn't the best, but the fact that you relate to the kid who acts like a jerk, saying he represents the average comic fan (I don't relate to him, I relate to her, which might be the point of what I'm saying), while that scene is an over-exaggeration, like all superhero melodrama is, I have experienced exactly that kind of situation, being talked down to, and I've seen this happen a lot when it is a young girl and especially if it is a person of color. The fact this irks you is acceptable, but I see a lot of truth in it, even if it is over the top soap opera dialogue.

I know you are going to say that you were only discussing how the industry, the fans of comics themselves reacted to it and her forcibly increased profile in the universe of comics, and as a fan of comics for almost 30 years, I see all your points. But I think you're reaction is an over-reaction, Kamala Khan is a small part of the Marvel universe, and if she is being artificially being pushed to the top, I personally, have no problem with that. I don't buy the comics, and no one else has to either. And if her inclusion in comics causes people to stop buying the comic, well, I have no problem with that either. Honestly, a lot of those books were never going to be bought no matter which version of Captain Marvel or Spider-Man you put into the book.

you know nothing jon snowden1 day ago (edited)

It is somewhat insulting the bullying of her as some sort of crucial element of her origin. “What’s her pathos?” “Oppression from comicbook nerds.”

Eric D.1 day ago

Two of the best marvel titles - Daredevil and Immortal Hulk - have one very important thing in common. Consistent creative teams that are telling good stories within a larger story arc that is being told simultaneously. The issue with Kamala Khan is the same issue that Marvel has with a lot of their characters - creative teams on a revolving door and overuse of cross over events. In that shuffle, the core of a character gets lost and we end up with flat, uninteresting characters exactly like the version of Ms. Marvel that's presented in the new Avengers game. A lot of the "problems" in comics could be corrected if the industry returned to a consistent creative team model instead of this six-issue-expiration-date on creative teams and constant title cancelations and reboots that we see now.

KelpieTales1 day ago

Pretty much what others have said before: Kamala has/had potential, her concept is solid and has been done elsewhere so it can work, her early series wasn't bad but come Civil War II things started going downhill for her sadly especially with politics becoming all the more obvious of a driving force.

What didn't also help was overexposure and the "You must love her or else!" Mentality behind her marketing and some fans as well being directly tied into two other franchises with the same problem: Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel and the Inhumans being made into knock-off X-Men. Since Disney got the rights to X-Men and shelves the Inhumans after the damage done to them I can see why they're quiet on Kamala being one. You also got a point on her surface traits being over exaggerated by other writers most specifically her being a Muslim and a Fangirl, with the rest kind of varying. One example is Waid's version of her is known for being so upset with how the Avengers wouldn't personally rebuild buildings destroyed in battle she left to form the Champions. First issue of her new series by Ahmed had her accidentally destroy a store and came off bratty to the justifiably angry owner. Some will see it as writers not doing their research which sadly happens quite a bit or worst case the character seen as a hypocrite to some especially if they're a fairly new characters with other factors going against them. One thing that personally bothers me about her is how Marvel and certain media praise her as their "best thing since Spider-Man" when she hasn't really done much to earn that title in terms of personal accomplishments. She's made from a similar mold as Peter and there's nothing wrong with doing that kind of "ordinary kid becomes a superhero" with a different cultural twist to it but it felt like they handled Kamala (and other modern hyped, young characters) with kid gloves compared to their predecessors. I don't think she should see all her loved ones murdered in front of her but maybe at least building a rogues gallery that challenges her more other than simply "fascism" and "Islamaphobia" or something. Then again, this could be because her writers are afraid of getting called "bigots" if something bad happens to her even if it's something white guys routinely deal with I.e. recent Star Wars comic had Boba Fett kill a black woman, just like he killed so many others before, and suddenly SWHatesWomen is a trending tag. Kamala's books also seem more geared to a YA for nerd girls and maybe younger like other books out there like Squirrel Girl so I can see that as a rift between her series and the usual comic fanbase that tends to be teen boys and men.

Also, no qualms about the costume but I get how stretchy powers can be a little weird for some to get over or have a character be fun and creative with it.

Also, that scene with the "real fans" bullies was eye roll worthy. I'm not denying fan elitism exists and I've seen it first hand from people of all walks of life. However, here it feels like it plays into the narrative of "fanboys are bigots who hate sharing their hobbies with girls/PoC/LGBT+" and of course, if you don't like characters like Kamala for any reason you're just like them. There's also how a lot of comic fans tend to just be super awkward, or even autistic, and just get carried away talking about their hobby while unintentionally coming off rude. I'll admit I've been there trying to talk to someone who acted like an authority on the comics when they didn't seem to ever read them and seemed to just watch the shows (while ironically talking down about others who watch superhero shows and don't read the books). Not to mention, the concern of hobbies being re-tooled to be more "inclusive" for people who never cared about them before while alienating the older fanbase.

Gabriel Hernandez1 day ago

Here's an anecdote that somewhat backs up your theory. Disney XD came out with Black Panther's Quest just after the release of the film. I remember hearing about it and thought it would be some light, fun entertainment. When the first episode came out (you can legit watch it here: https://youtu.be/0B9JOAX99pc), Ms. Marvel had as much dialog as Black Panther, certainly more than any other Avenger, and she was at the front of the team during the big fight scene in the first 5 minutes. I remember thinking "Why is this person here? Why is she getting so much attention in a Black Panther cartoon? Where's the Hulk? Why is Ms Marvel doing so much of the talking and in the same timeframe you have nothing from either Capt. America or Black Widow? What is this?" In other words, Ms Marvel was being shoved to the front and treated as a co-leader of the Avengers when - and here's the key - her canon and her powers weren't established enough to earn that spot. That's the difference. She didn't earn her place at the table, and it just comes off as forced and fake. Just my opinion.

Cole1 day ago

When I was in Washington DC last summer we visited American History Smithsonian and they unexpectedly had an exhibit on superheroes where they had some comics in a case and there was a Kamala khan Ms Marvel #1 next to a bunch of classic issues and first appearances. It puts things into perspective beyond a small internet troll bubble. That clip was kinda lame lol but the character has a large audience.

Ibena8271 day ago (edited)

I do disagree on the idea that people weren't ranting about her character when she first debut because they're were literal blogs and videos dedicated to bashing her character and her faith, and even those people who claim her comic was failing always forget to mention that while single issues weren't selling alot, her first volume actually sold remarkably well, making it the best selling series in that year. Although her character came from the all new and all different line-up there is a reason why unlike others like Riri Williams, America Chavez or even Nova she was able to go into other media so easily and it's simply because her character was able to appeal to new readers of comics with a young protagonist who held a more optimistic outlook on the Marvel universe as it was going into so much change at the time, it also helped that her story focus less on action and more on her daily life and how it involves into her heroic life. I could understand if people just don't like Ms. Marvel because she's just not their favorite type of hero but it would be weird to criticize the character for being comparable to her multiple relaunches "mentor" or with her being responsible for the decline of Marvel comics

Comics, by Perch1 day ago

I didn't say there were none... but if you look at the volume it was easily 1/20th of the volume of what occurred later in her run. For a period of time there were more articles condemning the insults than the insults themselves. Of course, that did change.

Horizon Brave1 day ago (edited)

I despise...DESPISE the fandom at times... This shouldn't even be a thing... I can guarantee you...promise you.... if Captain Marvel was not a teen girl, this conversation, this "agenda" that everyone spouts, this constant push back of anything about this character would not exist. Find it funny that all of the characters that create controversy and and bring out the cliche descriptors like SJW and MarySue are all women. I have yet to hear anyone whine and bitch about male characters 'ruining' the story or pushing politics etc

inotaishu11 day ago

Ms. Marvel wasn't even the first muslim girl in the Marvel Universe. DUST came years before her. I think the problem with the character is that she was so long connected to something that looks like an agenda instead of having the character stand on her own.

Once upon a time there was a online conflict called gamergate

it was an outgrowth of the increased mainstreamification with it greater demographic Alteration of fandom. Where they were a vehicle for major studios putting things out as well as trying to chase different demographics and markets.

alongside this is in fact a long-term attempt to make fandom much more female friendly. with, yes, pre-existing issues of sexism. With the sudden influx of this social capital some factions happily hook their train up either for validation, advancement, but especially social power. This all comes to a head through three major actions.

you probably heard names like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian. needless to say fandom isn't just one thing.

Stuff that happens in the game sphere creates an attitude because there are members who share multiple hobbies but especially with comics people wanted to act like they were social activists and one way they did that was by creating the bunch of traits that they knew what piss people off and then attack a group that they knew had less social capital.

so in order to combat what was perceived as negative feelings for Muslims and girls with interest in geeky hobbies and or science fiction they created the polemic fangirl. Especially to the counter the nasty statements against then popular brown hair girls such as Bella Swan and Katniss Everdeen.

This was addressing a very real issue, much as was pointed out in the book Lovecraft Country

We had genre fiction that had, on its basis, racist assumptions ideas and so on whether that was Tarzan, John Carter of Mars, and yes Lovecraft. but much like the creation of Miles Morales and several other characters you couldn't help but feel, much as you noted with this latest version, that the point of the character wasn't to be a character to celebrate and build a relationship with audience and this genre, but to brow beat the audience.

This is especially with fangirl interests being lionized as a social good even when in many ways just as venal Petty and low-key messed up. Something that nobody would own up to until it was socially advantaged to do so.

As an example people constantly pointing out how mean male nerds are to female or anything that's associated with female or progressive or gay fashions. Until suddenly they want to beat on those people then suddenly they can acknowledge the exact same traits those accused bigots with people were mad about as existing let alone allowing to be judged as flawed It's hilarious because I can point to things like people flipping out about the last Jedi and how people jump the gun on a character like admiral holdo. But then turn around and prosecute the in their name reylo fandom because they're all fighting against patriarchy. In short it's very clear when someone makes a character and they're meant to be a learning lesson for the audience

. And very deliberately from conception that was the point of Miles Morales and Kamala Khan. The only positive thing you could say at least with KK is that she was deliberately meant to be empathetic to that kind of girl. the problem is much like [Perch] said when they start saying she was the future it very much came with an implicit “you guys are the past and you guys sucked until we came here”

It's with this attitude along with that, even though I don't have a problem reading the first three or so of her trade, she's associated with the push of the inhumans which was very much more mandated by the fox marvel Disney pissing match; To the fact that she has Loki guest star along with agents of shield thus meaning that she was very much part of the then media tie in and fangirl gasm of pushing Loki which also fed into the idea of Loki as the best queer boyfriend; and they made it clear that this was going to be the future. basically they were going to be as Petty as they always were just aiming towards fangirl. as opposed to males’ preference

and then they were going to tell us how we were monsters for not going along with it.

And again those first three trades pretty well written and okay ish. They're all about character. which makes them kind of interesting but that doesn't change the fact that you can easily see what they're trying to do with having the literal villain called the inventor who's also Thomas Edison who's all about demoralizing and exploiting the younger generation, who all turn out to be super geniuses anyway, All this and a wolverine cameo.

Added in like [Perch] noted that people who were not about comics couldn't shut up about praising her as the future of comics as if everything was crap until she showed up and it just hurt a lot. especially as you noted it was all this other mess going on but she was part of the initiative of streamlining marvel towards the media Disney push. and very deliberately made in order to push out everybody who would come before even down to the likes of the audience to push for a different audience who they said was a more moral audience

So whether she was a hit outside of the morass of Marvel determined whether she’d be the new centralizing focus for it.

#comicsgate #ms. Marvel #why we 'hate' diversity #why many love it #comment highlights

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imtanyc-blog · 8 years ago

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An Ethnic Actor, 101

I am a 6’3”, male, Egyptian-American actor/singer with dark-olive skin, a receding hairline, an Average/Athletic build, and headshots that show my array of beard styles. These are the traits my potential bosses first see when I walk into an audition room. Thankfully, while I may look very Egyptian to Egyptians and am often asked to audition for Arabic roles because of my fluency in Arabic, I am ambiguous enough to fall in the roles of a Spaniard and Latino, Baltic, Greek, Frenchman, and Italian, depending on my hair/beard style. I’m also ethnic enough to fit a variety of minority roles, commonly: Indian, Pakistani, Malaysian, and Philippine (yes, it has happened).

For a minority actor, this is the jackpot! My ethnic ambiguity opens the door to many opportunities outside of my birth-race and provides me a better opportunity to pursue the field of acting versus portraying (which is a lot more difficult for minorities who look “too much” like one minority). It does, however, require me to do more research for my roles, giving me the best solution for how to approach the audition room, and how to give the right first impression.

Giving the right first impression.

This is an important factor for young working actors and singers, who typically spend 80% of their profession auditioning; because, often as is the case in this industry, the first 5 seconds of your greeting and the first 5 seconds of your audition-piece are to what the ‘panel of judges’ really pay attention.

That may seem different to those on the other side of the table, but it’s what we as actors learn and tend to experience. I question, though, what the right impression even means? In elementary school we were taught it means being the ‘best person you can be’, or event more vaguely, ‘being yourself’. While this, ultimately, is the best approach and impact for actor in an audition room, to more specifically “resonate or vibrantly project the unique side of yourself that matches your character,” it is also the greatest fear for actors. Think of when someone asks you to do something serious that’s a bit embarrassing. We always tend to insert a joke or sarcasm to in our performance, when we are essentially embarrassed and add humor to invalidate our performance, so that we can say to ourselves, after we finished, that it wasn’t our best attempt. An actor, very similarly, has the constant battle of investing herself/ himself fully in acting; but thus, to gather the right techniques and confidence in one’s skill is the purpose of teaching and training.

Now, let’s say that I am an amazing actor and I have overcome the confidence and skill to consistently ‘project myself vibrantly’ in an audition. How, then, do I know what part of myself to project? Even in acting a scene, we never work to imitate a character, but to put ourselves in the situation and body of that character, with their language and movements intact, while still maintaining a strong bond with the core: me. The idea of a sensory bank itself, a 101 lesson in acting, is to layer the experiences of a character with real-life experiences. For example, in class I was asked to do a couple of the prison scenes from JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHINCOLOR DREAMCOAT, and, during class, was asked to go under the stage for 20 minutes and crawl around. This was in order for my body to gather a strong sensory bank of an atmosphere that may simulate a prison, so that the emotions I enacted later didn’t come from a televised dramatization of a prison, but from a real, core, sensory experience.

That being said, the ethical standard is that there is no core experience to being a race. There are, however stereotypes to a race, which (believe it or not) is a goldmine for me, because a stereotype means a direction from which to build experiences; and, as I mentioned earlier, being an ethnically ambiguous actor meant I have to audition for many races; and with each race is the genuine stereotypes of its culture. These stereotypes are taught as the “archetypes” of a character (aka the typical, instinctual TV projections). Hard to admit, but for the roles I was given, embracing these archetypes are what helped me to better embrace the character, and they were often the roles I was given

I could ramble on about the ethical boundaries of archetyping a race, but for young actors, we are taught and often feel that we have no real influence in the industry; and we are too busy competing with the millions of actors who are following these expectations of archetyping and signing for roles! That being said, the debate for us doesn’t come from whether or not to archetype in the audition room, but from whether or not to audition... I have, as most ethnic actors will admit, put myself in many uncomfortable auditions for the sole purpose of getting a foot into the industry; and just as Aziz Ansari displayed, in the first episode of ‘Master of None’, of going into an audition for a ‘taxi driver’ and being asked to do an accent on top of his line, I too was brought in for a role as a taxi driver and asked in the audition to add an accent on top of it. But unlike Aziz’s character, I didn’t question the direction and went head on with my Arabic accent, which is what I’m sure they were implying. It didn’t faze me on whether adding an accent was ethically right or wrong. In honesty, it got me excited for the audition because they asked for something more from me; and one truth in this field is that direction means interest.

.There was one audition process in particular that was a bit difficult for me. It was for the role of Tariq, a Muslim Terrorist in New York, on the tv-series ‘Blue Blood’. The audition was an ‘over 5’ (which basically means lots of money) where I was asked to speak in Arabic and broken English. Now, I was raised Muslim, and while I currently have it as a back-burner in practice and faith, I have tremendous respect for the culture and religion; and I cringed in the moments I was auditioning as if in the middle of time square, screaming Allah’s name in vain right before blowing myself up... This was hard for me, because I felt as if was actively ‘archetype-ing’ the ‘extremist muslim’ persona that I have battled against since I was a little kid in Alabama, the same stereotypes that got me and my brother in many fights and intense arguments. I was, therefore, surprisingly relieved after being told in my final call that “the higher producers have just told us that we are changing this role to Caucasian. Really sorry, but great job!” Awkward to have been told that on my final call-back, but at the same time, I felt, in a way, guided outside of the generic role of a terrorist that currently pairs so well with my looks.

Moments like this make me question whether acting is even the field that I want to pursue. Did I take years of training and preparation to be cast as the typical Islamic Extremist? While this is only a minor category in the vast world of Theater, TV, and Film, it is my easy way in. “Maybe once in”, I would say to myself, “I’ll stop doing these roles and start pursuing my humanitarian side of taking roles that only challenge thought, promote peace and a battle against stereotyping my people.” Easier said than done; and sad to admit, but I am still excited when being offered to audition for other ‘over 5’ terrorist roles in a major network show, because I am an young actor, and I have to do whatever possible to get my foot into the industry, right?

I don’t know the answer to how theater should be written, or ‘what sells’ in the industry. All I do know is that to audition and get roles like Tariq is all I can do as an actor right now, or, at least, all I feel I can do. This is why I actively pair my career with the hobbies of writing and composing stories that promote my true beliefs - to preserve, in a way, the childish notion of maintaining my purity when diving into a pool of corruption.

While this may not have taught you anything, I hope it does give you a glimpse of at least one layer of burden for the ethnic actor, and I hope it impresses the importance of what we as millennials in theater choose to work on and why. Most importantly, I hope that IMTA (which is Arabic for ‘when’) we as young artists in theater become the leaders of our industry, we will overcome the temptations of money and power that currently motivate our works, and, instead, working on writing the better write, right?

-Kareem Elsamadicy, Brooklyn 2017.

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