#all the kids are teenagers and its a kids cartoon so obviously theres going to be tons of plot armor and childish plots etc | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

la5t-res0rt · 4 years ago

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Wanted to ask about beetlelyds, sorry, I thought it was technically cannon? Like in the old comics after the show ended she grew up and married him. Sorry I’m an old school fan and have no idea why this whole thing is such a big deal. Wasn’t the actor like 20 too? I’m sorry if I sound very dumb. I’m not used to this new tumblr.

youre fine you are one hundred percent allowed to especially when you do it civilly as you have done here

first of all the biggest issue faced in the whole what is and is not canon debate is the fact that there are three (four if you count the limited comics run) publicized iterations of my media

i will go over each very briefly just kidding this is going to a long answer so i will spare the dashboard with a readmore

there is the movie which im sure you dont need me to explain the plot since youre an old school fan but basically the climax is that yes beetlejuice does go for the marriage angle in exchange for stopping the exorcism of adam and barbara and his motive for this is so that he can cause as much chaos as he wants on the mortal coil but his plan is thwarted when barbara rides a sandworm into the house which promptly eats beetlejuice sending him to bureaucratic death limbo

the end of the movie features the deetz and the maitlands happily living together with lydia havign a new appreciation for her situation and beetlejuice gets his head made real small which is very funny haha

so no in the movie they are not canon editors note the actress who played lydia winona ryder was a teenager while filming the movie she turned 17 the year it released

the next is the cartoon which i will admit has the most grounds for being considered canon but in the end the show is about a middle schooler and her best friend who is a ghost which in itself is a pretty iffy gray area sort of thing but for a childrens cartoon to work a friendship is better than the obvious enemy status they held in the movie

anyway in the cartoon they are potrayed to be very close friends with lydia being the person beetlejuice cares about the most and honestly if you were to watch it with no prior knowledge of the media and if you ignored their massive and obvious age difference than yeah you probably would read it as a romantic relationship

however lydia is a middle schooler and that is simply immoral

there have been writers for the cartoon who have been credited to say that a relationship is what they were trying to invoke but for obvious reasons they couldnt exactly move forward with that angle with them establishing that lydia is a child in middle school and a fully grown adult man dating a child who is in middle school is immoral and also illegal in the united states and in canada

this isnt a good argument for whether or not something is canon and i will tell you why with one simple name and that is luke weber

if you dont know who luke weber is he was a storyboard artist on the cartoon steven universe he is known for making a lot of self ship artwork of him and the character pearl

he worked on the show isnt his material canon no of course it isnt it wasnt put in the actual publication and also if memory serves he was eventually asked to leave the project after he drew art of the shows creator giving him permission to date pearl and calling them her otp and a lot of fans hated this because the most generally accepted interpretation of pearls character is that she is sapphic so a lot of people took issue however that again is just a widely perceived headcanon it is never stated what her actual sexuality is no one in that show is because it isnt a show about that its about wait im getting off topic sorry

what im saying is what can truly be considered canon is what you see on the screen and with the cartoon they are definitely the most friendly with each other and that is why so many people in the beetlebabe shipping community take so much stock in the cartoon because it is the easiest to read the relationship between the mas romantic although that is not what the show actually provides in black and white terms

interpretation does not equal canon and in this case no matter what anyone says the fact remains that in the cartoon itself they are friends good friends yes but friends all the same

it is definitely not a show about a grown man grooming an adult and if it were you definitely shouldn’t be stanning it the extreme because grooming a minor is wrong and it is apparently a problem in the fandom

anyway if the cartoon and the movie are both products of their time and there was more leniency on content bear in mind this was the same era as notorious animation powerhouse and known predator john k who was a showrunner on ren and stimpy and he maintained a relationship with a teenager which was an open secret that nobody really took issue with because in that time being a woman in the animation industry was tricky business and your career could be ended easily if you rejected advances luckily time has moved forward and the animation industry although still full of problems of a similar nature at least people are getting called out and punished for it

you can look more into that yourself its really upsetting though

as for comics i havent been able to find good scans of them and im not willing to purchase them but in my search i never found anything about the two of them ever being married in the cartoon again because she is a child i did find a cover where he appears to be getting married and hes asking lydia to get him out of it but im not sure where the comic actually goes all i know is she is standing off to the side shrugging and looking like she doesnt really care

anyway that brings us to the musical which is set in the modern day

in the original libretto lydia is described as thirteen but since they got an actress who was older in the updated librettos she is listed as 15 and the story is pretty similar to the movie the young girl befriends ghosts and they try to scare her family out etc etc

the major difference between the film and the musical are that lydia and beetlejuice are more like friends like in the cartoon

she summons him to help scare after the maitlands attempt doesnt really work so he shows up and they have fun terrorizing people together however she drops him for the opportunity to perhaps get her mom back but when no one will help she goes back to beetlejuice who tricks her into almost exorcising barbara

she agrees to marry him in order to stop the exorcism and he only wants to get married so he can be alive again and cause problems on the mortal coil like in the movie in the musical he states several times its a green card thing whihc obviously doesnt make it okay but still

anyway lydia tricks him and runs off into the underworld before the wedding can happen blah blah blah she goes back blah blah and she agrees to go through with the wedding to save her friends and family with a plan to make him go away for good

theres a very tongue and cheek song called creepy old guy which points out how wrong the whole thing is but everyone is going along with it in a very comedic matter and it includes the line

i cant believe some cultures think this kind of things alright

basically saying yeah this is very very wrong anyway they do get married and beeltjeuice is alive for like 6 seconds before lydia stabs him to death with bad art and he dies thus nullifying the marriage because death do you part etc

so in the musical no at the end of the show they are not canon because he is dead their marriage is nullified and they go their separate ways

anyway sorry about that i just need to make it very clear that these three properties are all very distinct from each other and basically all three are indeed canon since they are publicized material and arguing the validity of which one is pointless editors note all actresses who played with the exception of dana steingold were minors for the majority of their runs as lydia with sophia ann caruso the originator of the role turning 18 during the run and dana being in her late twenties presley ryan however was a minor the whole time and still is one

tldr no they aren’t canon but to the credit of some people in this fandom their interpretation isnt too far of a stretch thanks to the era and some of the writers wishing to imply a relationship between an adult and a child

i also need to address how this is all a big deal and i suggest you take a peak through my discourse tag and check out @leedia‘s blog to see some of the more harmful things done by beetlebabe shippers

the beetlejuice fandom is home to many minors after the musical came out since musical fandom is vast and the ages of its members varies and normalizing pedophilia is harmful to them not to mention the people who have been effected by sexual harassment at the hands of adults

both sides have victims of csa but one side continues to perpetuate the cycle by showing time and time again that this behavior is normal and easily romanticized in the name of coping and literally anyone who has ever been to a good and credible therapist could tell you that posting cp even if it is simulated cp isnt a really good way to cope and you can get mad at me for saying that its totally fine but and im going to remove my character veil here for just a second as a csa survivor myself i think its harmful to not only myself but many others ok the veil is back down

tldr again there is a lot of bullying and harassment going on with both sides having their own issues but there is one side whos issues run a bit deeper in my humble opinion

thank you for your question it allowed me to talk a lot you are welcome to discuss further with me in dms if you wish i honestly recommend giving the musical a listen because it is very fun and despite what some people say its very clever and if you get a chance to see a boot of it its visually stunning

one last note that i couldnt really fit in here but a large portion of the beetlebabes shipping community ignore the musical because it openly condemns the idea of beeltejuice and lydia having a relationship and a lot of the antis take issue with much of the writing and characterizations of the cartoon just a note that i think is important since were talking about canon

#discourse #long ask #i am so tired #Anonymous

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themoonsbeloved · 4 years ago

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You know I think this is probably why I can’t get into anymore of these new trending animes because the main protagonists are always minors, and the older I get the more I hestitate or find myself backing away from these animes. Not only because as an adult there’s only so much you can relate to when it comes to literal children, but because theres this growing discomfort at the very obvious adult themes portrayed in these animes, but centred around, again, literal children. Like at this point anime companies know their target audience are not kids or young adults, and thinking back about the very obvious adult themes portrayed in these animes (I was banned from watching naruto on T.V, which was the only exposure I had to anime mind you, because of his sexy jujutsu ahsjsjskd), and how there is no hard line seperation between adult content and kids content when it comes to Japanese anime. Like it really is this reocurring “heres some dark adult, sexual themes but its all happening and/or taking place around minors”. This is probably because I never grew up watching anime so I can only explain it as someone from the outside looking in???. Cause I can imagine a person who’s grown up with anime as a big part of their life and naturally socialised into the whole anime culture, wouldn’t feel any reason to question or consider the possibility that there’s a concern as adults in what we consume, and where the whole moral compass lies about adult themes and stories depicted in cartoons about children. Like obviously this whole issue is much more complex and we could absolutely go into what anime/manga creators do when it comes to stuff like sexualisation of minors and the normalisation of so many other harmful and morally corrupt themes around minors, and what that signifies about us as a society and culture blah blah (and also how this extends to how we consume non-Japanese animation too) but like, we’re adults. We’re responsible for the content we decide to consume at the end of the day, and HOW we consume it, and being responsible enough to acknowledge limits and boundaries as adults because its the right thing to do, and probably healthier. Before anyone says shit this should be a no brainer but I’m NOT saying adults shouldn’t relate to or love great stories about teenagers and minors and find joy in them. What I’m saying is I think its healthy to internally be catching yourself and that little feeling of discomfort about getting into yet another anime about highschoolers before the lines are blurred, and we start investing ourselves around the lives of fictional minors to the point where we can’t maintain any healthy boundary. anyway I dedicate this absolute unit of an essay to my inability to write my dissertation, thank you.

#i just think about the posts about adults still holding onto YA fiction when adult fiction is right there #and again I dont know if anime offers that range #im sure they do #but its obvious what is popular culture #p

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janethepegasus · 6 years ago

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So i saw Matpat’s latest video about shared universes (starting with Doom and somehow connecting it with Kingdom Hearts) and my crazy brain thought it would be a good idea to expand it even FURTHER all because he used Spider-Man to connect to Thanos in Fortnite (yes seriously)

So behold, all the shit i had to go through to make connections to everything i can find and think of

So since all Spider-Mans are in one multiverse, that means all versions of Spider-Man are canon, so let's look at two cases of alternate Spider-Mans. Theres the Japanese Spider-Man, which was created by Toei as a collab by Marvel, Toei also created Super Sentai, which has connections to Kamen Rider (Super Hero Taisen), Metal Hero (some crossover movies), and obviously Power Rangers. Power Rangers had a crossover with TMNT, which has connections to not only other versions of TMNT but also other series like Batman (basically the whole DC universe is involved), Archie, X-Files, Ghostbusters, Rabbids (they were an extra character in a fighting game, as like a promotion for the new game), and all the toons that showed up in Cartoon All-Stars, like the Smurfs, Alf, Garfield, Alvin and the Chipmunks, Winnie the Pooh (which is already tying back up to Kingdom Hearts), Muppet Babies, Looney Toons, and Ducktales.

Now Muppet Babies is part of the Muppet franchise, the Muppets are connected to Sesame Street, which opens up a can of worms for connections. Some characters cameoed in Between the Lions, Mr Rogers' Neighbor Hood, The Electric Company, Reading Rainbow, Poky Little Puppy, and a bunch of these characters appeared in a We are Family music video, which has *inhales* Bear in the Big Blue House, Barney, Arthur, The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, Rugrats, The Magic School Bus, SpongeBob SquarePants, Dora the Explorer, Blue's Room, Blue's Clues, Clifford the Big Red Dog, Kim Possible, The Proud Family, LazyTown, Lilo & Stitch: the Series, Madeline,Little Bill, The Fairly OddParents, Zoom, AND a whole bunch more shows.

Obviously Jimmy Neutron and Fairly Odd Parents had a crossover (three in fact), but those other shows had crossovers too, like Rugrats having a crossover with Wild Thornberrys, Lilo and Stitch had crossovers too, they had crossovers with The Proud Family, Kim Possible, Recess, and American Dragon Jake Long. Spongebob is connected to a lot of Nicktoons shows through the bumpers on the channel and had a major crossovers with Fairly Odd Parents, Danny Phantom, Jimmy Neutron, Tak, and Invader Zim in the Nicktoons Unite games.

Looney Toons is connected to all other Hanna Barbera property, which had crossovers as well (look at Scooby Doo and Tom and Jerry, they're LOADED with crossovers with other series), as for the Looney Toons cast themselves, examples include Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, Pokemon (in a commercial in Kids WB), The Justice League, Wild Kratts (Kinda? The two characters, Road Runner and Wild E. Coyote, were pretty much referenced as a way to say that real life coyotes can catch up to road runners), and The Amazing World of Gumball. And Pokemon had a crossover game with Nobunaga's Ambition called Pokemon Conquest. AND Ducktales is connected to Darkwing Duck and the same goes with the reboot.

Okay now back to where we started, Power Rangers had a crossover episode with Masked Rider, which is an adaptation of Kamen Rider Black RX, Kamen Rider had a FEW crossovers with other series, like Crayon Shin-chan, Pac-Man, Osomatsu-San, Hello Kitty, Pretty Cure, and a few others. Pretty Cure only had crossovers with itself but there is one pic floating around the internet showing one of the Cures standing in front of Arresterdramon Superior Mode, so it might hint to a commercial happening during that time. Hello Kitty has a ton of crossovers with different series, such as Sonic, Cookie Run, Pac-Man, Puzzles and Dragons, Doraemon, Yokai Watch, and several others. In Osomatsu-San Hesokuri Wars, they have costumes/sets of the six brothers being yokai, magical girls, monsters, angels, knights, super heroes, greek

gods, and others. Yokai is also connected to Yokai Watch, which has it's own crossovers with other series, like Final Fantasy, Terminator, Inazuma Eleven (which had commercials that crossed over with Despicable Me), The Seven Deadly Sins, Detective Conan, Hello Kitty (which brings this back to Hello Kitty and its crossovers), Inuyasha, Professor Layton, and several others. Professor Layton had a crossover game with Ace Attorney, which has many references and a small amount of crossovers.

Now let's move on to another Spider-Man, the one from Ultimate Spider-Man, obviously he's connected to the other Marvel shows that take place in that universe, but Spider-Man had crossover episodes/specials with Phineas and Ferb and Jessie, Jessie having connections with other Disney Sit-com shows like Austin and Ally, Good Luck Charlie, Liv and Maddie, and a few others, HOWEVER Mr. Moseby from the Suite Life of Zach and Cody appeared in one episode, which means that Jessie is in the same universe as That's So Raven, Hannah Montanna, Cory in the House (yeah yeah yeah, i can hear the anime memes from a mile away -_-), and Wizards of the Waverly Place. Phineas and Ferb also had crossover specials/episodes with Star Wars and Milo Murphy's Law, Star Wars has many crossovers and references in other shows, like the Muppets, Seasame Street, Captain N, Mario (in that old Mario cartoon episode where they parodied it), Putt-Putt, Megaman, Duke Nukem, Star Trek, Indiana Jones, Dragon Ball, Transformers, Metal Gear, Angry Birds, Lego, Club Penguin, and several others.

The Star Wars references were in Megaman V and Megaman Zero, sprites from Megaman Zero were used to create sprites of TV Tome Adventures, which then became TOME: Terrain of Magical Expertise and then it turned into the video game version of that show, the creator of the show, Kirbopher, did an animation related to Super Mario RPG, and had many voice roles like in Mob Psycho 100, Pokemon, and other series. Dragon Ball is the prequel of Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Z Super made it clear that there's other universes so all of those are connected as well, and Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had crossovers with other shows like One Piece, Dr Slump, Astro Boy, Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo, and a few others. Metal Gear had crossovers and references in Terminator, Gundam, Castlevania, Mario, Zelda, Ape Escape, Yugioh (which connects itself to the other seasons like GX, 5D's, Zexal, Arc-V, and Vrains), Monster Rancher, Yoshi, The Standley Parable (only in the demo), and several others. Transformers, since it's made by Hasbro, is also connected to other Hasbro property, such as My Little Pony (and Equestria Girls), and they had references to other series in both the show and in the IDW comics, like pony versions of Rick and Morty appearing in one episode, pony versions of characters from Sailor Moon, Gravity

Falls, Kill La Kill, Scooby Doo, Powerpuff Girls, Frozen, and few other shows and even pony versions of IRL people like Gordon Ramsey. Transformers had crossovers and references to other series as well such as G.I Joe, Doctor Who, Spider Man, Star Wars, Marvel, and several other shows, and apparently Jem, Inhumanoids, C.O.P.S, and Robotix takes place in the Transformers universe.

Angry Birds had crossovers with other series like Rio, Star Wars, Puzzles and Dragons, Transformers, Sonic, The Muppets, and many levels in their games make references to other series. Lego Dimensions is full of crossovers, like The A-Team, Adventure Time, Back to the Future, Beetlejuice, DC Comics, Doctor Who, E.T, Fantastic Beasts, Ghostbusters (both the original and the 2016 reboot), The Goonies, Gremlins, Harry Potter, Jurassic World, Knight Rider, Legends of Chima, other Lego property, Lord of the Rings, Midway Arcade, Mission: Impossible, Portal, Powerpuff Girls, Scooby-Doo, Simpsons, Sonic, Teen Titans Go!, and The Wizard of Oz. Speaking of The Simpsons, they had crossovers with other shows like Family Guy and Futurama, AND they cameoed appeared in South Park, and Family Guy is in the same universe as American Dad and The Cleveland Show. The Simpsons also had crossovers with The Critic, X-Files, King of the Hill, Robot Chicken, Bob's Burgers (which means it's also connected to the Archer Show), Rick and Morty, and several series get mentioned in the show itself. As for Sonic, he had a crossover comic series with Megaman, he had crossovers in the comics with Sabrina the Teenage Witch and DC (it was part of a Sonic Super Special comic but for some reason the Wikis won't tell me if it's generally DC or some part of it >:/ ), Sonic had levels in Sonic Lost World that were crossovers with NiGHTS, Legend of Zelda, and Yoshi's Wooly World, in Sonic Forces, there's DLC costumes that are based off of NiGHTS, Beat from Jet Set Radio, AiAi from Super Monkey Ball, and Joker from Persona 5. Sonic had crossover games with other SEGA series, but in Sonic Dash, they had events that had crossovers with Angry Birds, Hello Kitty, and Pac-Man. In one of the Vocaloid games, Miku had a costume that was a Sonic hoodie, to celebrate Sonic's anniversary, Vocaloid made many songs and some of these songs branch out into their own series, one of them being Black Rock Shooter, and i swear BRS was a guest character in some fighting game but i don't remember what the name was.

Okay, now let's head back to Marvel, one of the characters that's paired up with Spider-Man (except for the Movie universe) is Deadpool, and in one comic, he takes a girl to see Hamilton. In one of the Hamildrops, they did a crossover song which was a mix of Story of Tonight and You'll be Found from Dear Evan Hansen called "Found Tonight", one of the actors from Dear Evan Hansen is now playing the role of Jeremy in Be More Chill, and in the original 2015 performance of BMC, the actor who played Jenna also played Martha in Heathers, and Eric William Morris, who played Squip, also played Jordan in The Ballad of Little Jo. And since we're using actors to connect series...*inhales* Lin Manuel Miranda (who plays Alexander in Hamilton) also had roles in In The Heights, 21 Chump Street, Mary Poppins Returns, Ducktales Reboot, Do No Harm, Looking for Maria Sanchez, Sesame Street, House M.D, and a few others. Mary Poppins Returns is a sequel to the original Mary Poppins so they instantly connect, and i'm gonna make a crazy theory of House M.D taking place in the same city (or state) as Blue Bloods and Forever, both shows have characters played by Eric William Morris, who had roles in Trust, Greed, Bullets, and Bourbon, Royal Pains, As The World Turns, and few other small roles. But one of his current roles is Carl from King Kong Broadway, which is based off of King Kong, and King Kong had a crossover film with Godzilla, and there's a short film that had Ultraman and Kamen Rider (i think it was Godzilla?? It was a giant lizard thing :/). However, King Kong was the inspiration behind Donkey Kong, which now has connections to both Mario and Donkey Kong series. Donkey Kong had crossovers/references with Frogger, Pitfall, Qubert, Mickey (from Disney), Punch Out, Mother, Earthworm Jim, Kirby, Crash Bandicoot, Banjo Kazooie, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Scott Pilgrim, The Fast and the Furious, Class of 3000, Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!, Big Bang Theory, Metroid, Pushmo, Minecraft, Gravity Falls, Wreck It Ralph, Pixels, Skylanders, several others, and had japanese exclusive songs in Donkey Konga that had songs from Super Sentai, Pretty Cure, Pikmin, Naruto, Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo Bo, Fullmetal Alchemist, Dragon Ball Z, Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus, Ice Climbers, and several others.

Minecraft had a Super Mario texture pack in the Switch version of Minecraft, plus a Steven Universe texture pack as well, there are console exclusive skins based off of characters from Gears of War, Halo, Banjo-Kazooie, Dust, Tony Hawk, Left 4 Dead, Boarderlands, Conker, Half-Life, Portal, Assassin's Creed, Mass Effect, and several other shows. Steve from Minecraft can be an unlockable character in games like Super Meat Boy, Choplifter, Retro City Rampage, and Creepers can be found in Blocks that Matter, Boarderlands, Torchlight, and Minecraft is refernced in Adventure Time, Octodad, The Stanley Parable, Skyrim, and South Park. And since Minecraft has Halo skins, this ties into Red VS Blue, a show that uses assets from the Halo series. And Red VS Blue appeared in a promotional video alongside the main cast of RWBY. Mother (or Earthbound) is the inspiration for Undertale, which had a sequel called Deltarune, and in one of the locations in Deltarune is a place called "Ice-E's Pezza", and Burgerpants mentions a guy named "Purple Guy" which is a reference to Purple Guy from Five Nights at Freddies. Crash Bandicoot had two crossover games with Spyro the Dragon and had references in Uncharted, Futurama, Johnny Test, Family Guy, Jimmy Neutron, The Country Bears, Jak and Daxter, Friends, The Simpsons, Tomb Raider, and several others. And Mickey is one of the characters in Kingdom Hearts, so now we come in full circle with Matpat's theory.

So started with Spider-man (well two versions of Spider-man) and ended it with Mickey, i'm sure there's other series out there that i forgot to bring up but eh, this is long enough :/

#long post #crossover #matpat #i spent days finding every single crossover/reference i can find

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ratajota · 5 years ago

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since watching kids cartoon analyisis on youtube induces a state of verborrhage, im gonna say a few things about nelyn that ive slightly tought about and just dont sound right to me anymore:

- there are many, MANY things that nelyn does that make absolutely no sense that were basically driven by my own teenage libido, which is, the endless gay longing of sweating while thinking about holding hands. a way late teens and adults dont normally behave. nelyn, im so sorry. in which:

1 - joining the telvanni and succeeding was one of those things. partly inspired because i just wanted my friends oc to be his friend and develop them together. it gave me a bullshit excuse in how in earth would nelyn manage to become a real hortator while having the charm and charisma of a rat in dunmeri political terms, and how in earth could nelyn become so magically powerful. i made it so nelyn magically succeeded despite everything just pointing to this not working. hell, he would make a better redoran.

there was this whole arc (which i would not discard) where he got an apprenticeship at port telvannis, since he needed Mage Papers to get a shot at being a proper telvanni, worked his ass off to be independent and sustain himself, while receiving all sorts of academic mistreatment and backlash. basically, rigurous magic methods versus the purely intuitive unmethodic magic of nelyn, and also, he can´t read. the sheer discrimination of it all. he learned much more and grew more as a person by doing labor in the island than in academy, then went back to vvardenfel. originally, he did become an Alternative Alteration Smart Master Wizord, but this is just out of character. at most, he is a crazy philosopher greatly influenced by other crazy boethians

2 - those brief times with teldryn and julan that were continuously scrapped and rewritten because guess what.... didnt make sense because they all strongly clash personality wise. with teldryn, theres this great naivety of liking the first person that treats you more or less okay, with julan, which i constantly had to stop writing and twist things because they would get REALLY heated up and hated each other forever because they are both determined hot headed little shits and really had no reason to travel together (nelyn would Never give him the pleasure of letting him believe he was the neverbrain). also, this reeks a lot like transmasculine fear

i will not talk about hassim. thats too embarrassing. but consider that whole ordeal also another mistake

notice how nelyn has no acquaitances or FRIENDS and only guys that he has weird homo tension or unrequited/failed relationships with? this is called the author was a queer 16 years old with very little life experience and a lot of idealization.

3 - the weird themes around masculinity. Nelyn obviously goes from being curious, sensible/sensitive, negociating, perceptive and wary of the world and spirits, being very connected to them, to completely brazen and colluding with everything in his path, twisting everything to fit his destiny and reshaping his narrative. it makes a bit of sense if you understand that he came from a place where everything went more or less swimmingly for him, that he was doing great, was loved and everything he did was fantastic, and he harbored a quiet resentment for the very few things that were not allowed for him (ethnic belonging, a bloodline, normality as in not being a witch, the empire seeping in windhelm). it is public knowledge that morrowind simply treats anybody like shit, and boy was nelyn greatly offended. Nelyn never really acts or approaches the spiritual matters of morrowind with genuine respect and love as he treated those of skyrim, he did it with great interest, yes, but there was this very strong intention of FIXING THINGS HIS WAY, instead of feeling he was talking and negociating with a force of nature. again, aedric vs daedric stuff

there´s this thing where nelyn goes from being a very disorientated tourist having constant meltdowns (which always end in some sort of “fuck these people” realization that drives him forward - he is simply unable to sink and give up, its something hardwired in him for some reason) to a hortator, with all that word means. i took the mantling stuff into the story as well, nelyn becomes as golden as nerevar and doesnt really return to his senses until the main events are over and allows himself to suffer.. this all is casually happening as he transitions. theres this clear narrative where he stops being a victim and becomes the one holding the reins, or maybe the whip. metaphysical demonization of transmasculinity trope?

nelyn is also greatly overpowered, but for a long time, it´s absolutely useless and more of an obstacle to basic normal function. being almost unable to battle despite knowing how to use axe due to the overwhelming sensations of either the dagoth corruption or daedric energies. again, in a point of the story, he goes from passively perceiving things and communicating with them (often going very wrongly for him), and learns to materialize his will and force reality to do what he wanted, no longer listens to the world around him.

this all by itself is neutral, it does not have a relationship with gender, but at some point i just made nelyn trans just because, with little thought. i dont know if i can freely talk about this since people get their jimmies rustled, but i dont think anyones gonna care in this dying platform. it all casually ties with the hortator and conqueror themes. many times after 2017 i came across nelyn and wondered how does a person that looks, feels, and thinks like two different people at the same time can be the same person. the obvious answer is yes, these two are contained by the other one at the same time, there´s always a presence of this mystical nelyn in the more emotional matters, and theres always a hortator nelyn coming to the rescue in his earliest moments, driving him forward.

4 - nelyns transition doesnt make sense, and so doesnt the lore i constructed around it. flesh magic, good, ok, we get it, totally lore friendly. but theres no real reason why would someone with little to no problems with their physical appearance, who didnt think that an operation that is not life-saving exists, or that someone very androgynous would jump right into such drastic things just because a wizard told them they could do it. i have a lot of conflicting views of him, his image and his presentation, but his hypermasculinization, when we dont really know what it means and is necessary to be a man in morrowind, and supposedly there is gender equality in skyrim is like... wherever is this sudden short hair and stern manliness coming from? i know, PROJECTION

5- there have been a Lot of arcs that were thought about after the end of the main quest, telvanni mage nelyn, oblivion playthrough, just descent into madness, and most recently, a return to skyrim with an eventual return to morrowind. for some reason, they all meet this dead point where nelyn just breaks and cannot deal with it all anymore, with no more willpower or knowing what he wants to do, when his character for a lot of time was based on that. someday i will know the reason for this

6- i dont even remember how much i twisted the mq into something of a huge scale but definitely unrealistic

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