#all I do on the internet is insist that characters- yes- are indeed that fucked up

[imminent-danger-came]

I am having a moment

[nymphilily]

Miscellaneous Fun Facts About The TWST Pokemon Conquest AU Because I'm Dragging My Feet On It And Some People Are Actually Interested, Apparently

I'm not going to explain the plot of Pokemon Conquest to you. I am however going to tell you to play the game, it's really good and probably one of, if not THE best Pokemon Spin-Off and Collaboration games of all time. Also go play Samurai Warriors. Believe me it has more to do with this post than you think

Ace, Deuce and Epel are the mandatory Starter Typing Trio, filling in being Warriors for the Fire, Water and Grass-Type respectively. They would all have the Paldea Starters as their Perfect Links if I didn't decide that Epel's Perfect Link should be the Aplin Line upon conception

Edit: I'm A Fool I'm An Idiot I just remembered Yukimura's Starter Pokemon is Tepig but his Perfect Link is Charizard. Epel can, indeed, have a Sprigatito

They're all also fugitives, it's how they meet Yuu. They found them knocked out on a beach on the edge of the Region while trying to flee

Unlike the Hero/Heroine, Yuu isn't a Warlord. They are instead the head strategist of their little ragtag army. Grim is considered to be a very fucked-up looking Meowth, and not allowed to battle since he doesn't really listen anyways

It's not made clear (ie I haven't decided yet) if Yuu is even from the Pokemon World or comes from a world like our own. They don't have their memories from before waking up on the beach, which is why they want to unify the Region and call up God to figure out what's going on

The very first actual, real Warlord the gang have to fight is Riddle, the resident Fairy-Type Warlord, who ends up mirroring the very last Warlord they have to fight, the Dragon-Type Warlord Malleus. We call that symbolism or foreshadowing I think

Malleus is still considered to be a Dragon Fae, although it's in that "descended from dragons" sort of matter. He doesn't have the ability to turn into a dragon

Cater is a lot like Okuni where he considers Bug-Type Pokemon to be very cute. If the internet existed during The Sengoku Period, A Time Of Chaos And Bloodshed™, his page would be filled of pics of all the Bug-Types he's encountered and raised as a Warrior

Both Lilia and Ruggie are Dark-Type Warriors, meaning they are the de facto Ninja's of this AU! Have fun with that knowledge because I'm certainly not going to expand upon it

What are you going to do to stop me from telling you that Vil's Starting Pokemon is Trubbish? What will you do?

Not necessarily a fun fact in the traditional sense, but Trey is the one and only Normal-Type Warrior that isn't an NPC, so he absolutely could have a Perfect Link with Arceus if I didn't have a very strict "No Legendary or Mythical Perfect Links" rule

If I had a nickel for every time I made a character's Perfect Link the spirit of a dead relative, I would have two nickels. Which is not a lot, but it's very on brand of me to do it more than once I love the Dead Relative Troupe

Idia would have absolutely handed over his army to Yuu's cause if Ortho didn't insist they at least try to defend themselves. Yuu's Army ends up getting creamed the first time btw

The Kingdom Sebek rules over sits on the very edge of the Region and has a dock that no longer see's any activity. Sebek spends a lot of his free-time in the lighthouse near said dock and is often confused for it's caretaker. Yes his Starting Pokemon is an Ampharos why do you ask?

Don't ask what happened to Crowley. We Don't Talk About What Happened To Crowley

[zedecksiew]

“Exotic Warrior”

(Am writing this because it’s been bubbling over in my mind. This post is an exorcism of bad vibes over bad ideas that have held me hostage, the past few days.)

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There is now criticism on Twitter arguing that the “Exotic Warrior”, one of Troika!’s d66 Backgrounds, is racist because it is coded as Orientalist / Asian.

I would like to respectfully disagree.

(There are other arguments in the initial complaint. I am commenting the “Exotic Warrior” specifically. Because by being actually East Asian -- part of the diaspora, living in Southeast Asia -- I feel I have some standing to comment.)

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When I encountered “Exotic Warrior” in the book it stood out as a neat background and helped sell me on Troika!.

As I read it, the Background is a deft piece of work: it references the “adventurer from a foreign land” thing, but occludes said trope’s usual Orientalism -- an attempt at deconstruction.

A foreigner, in Troika!, can be anybody. This isn’t just a platitude; it’s supported by the book’s implied science-fantasy setting -- is essentially Spelljammer, but on more acid.

It is similar to Electric Bastionland / Planescape / etc in that it features a melting-pot, nobody’s-local “city at the centre of creation”-type deal. (I have Thoughts about RPG setttings that focus on metropoles, but that’s a separate post.)

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Here’s the “Exotic Warrior” ’s text, in full:

24 EXOTIC WARRIOR No one has heard of your homeland. Your habits are peculiar, your clothes are outrageous, and in a land jaded to the outlandish and new you still somehow manage to stand out.

POSSESSIONS - A WEIRD & WONDERFUL WEAPON. - STRANGE CLOTHES. - EXCITING ACCENT. - A TEA SET or 3 POCKET GODS or ASTROLOGICAL EQUIPMENT.

ADVANCED SKILLS 6 Language - Exotic Language 3 Fighting in your Weird Weapon 2 Language - Local Language 2 Spell - Random 1 Astrology 1 Etiquette 

Honestly? None of the above reads as particularly problematic. It’s a legit, characterful beginning point for a player-character.

Sure, my Western-media-battered brain jumps to Samurai Warrior -- 

But immediately also to Sufi Missionary or Varangian Guard. And indeed comes to rest at Indeterminately White Gentleperson Naturalist -- the kind of exotic visitor Southeast Asia got, a lot, those scouts of European imperialism.

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These readings are possible because of the illustration the entry is paired with. Here they are together:

Setting aside the surrealist stylisations:

The shape of the costume, the belt, the “skirt” -- these look like Europeanisms, to me. And the figure’s laughing abandon opposes the standard Orientalist tropes of wise inscrutability or red-faced savagery.

The choice to run “Exotic Warrior” with a decidedly non-Orientalist-coded illustration isn’t an unintentional piece of art direction.

(PS: any critique of an illustrated text that only focuses on the words is incomplete. Image is half the text of an illustrated text.)

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The nondescript-ness of the entry plus its accompanying image is an open door. Opening this door isn’t without risk: whatever assumptions you make about your particular “Exotic Warrior” are drawn from your own biases.

+

Regarding “Etiquette” and “Astrology” and “Tea Set”?

With my biases: I don’t read these things as uniquely East-Asian. (When I first encountered “tea set” in Troika! I genuinely thought: “English tea service”, instead of: “temae”.)

The one that I did read as real-world Eastern was “Pocket Gods” -- but many human cultures had this, pocket gods are a part of Troika!’s wider fantasy setting, and “Exotic Warrior” isn’t the only Background to start with them.

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A note on “exotification”:

The criticism of “Exotic Warrior” fundamentally seems to be: “Playing a character from the Other / that is Other-ed = BAD”.

I fundamentally disagree with this notion.

I have no lived experience of a society where being other-ed (in terms of culture, race, class, gender expression, etc) isn't an ever-present thread in the fabric of one's life -- and therefore a crucial and profound source of conflict and insight into the human condition.

(The ethnic fault-lines in Malaysian society have become so unbridgeable today primarily because it was official policy to sweep all that other-ing under the rug of “Malaysia Truly Asia”, as opposed to working through our ugly whispered prejudices towards understanding.)

We are not all the same. Cultural, geographic, and material differences exist. The mismatch in knowledge and understanding this creates? It matters.

In fact: To insist on universal cultural-knowledge parity; To push for “nobody’s born here, everybody belongs” melting-pots as the default framing; To nudge questions of difference and arrival into ghettos (to paraphrase one of the tweets I saw: “you can only explore issues surrounding the Other in a game specifically designed to do so”);

All that comes off to me as a very neo-liberal position, designed to safeguard and disguise the privileges of “mainstream” metropolitan melting-pots.

I read it as:

“Post-modern cosmopolitan societies want to be inclusive but don’t want to pay the admission price of history and discomfort, so they generally opt for erasure instead.”  

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Throughout this post I have been careful to speak from my particular context. Because context matters.

More context:

I like Troika!. Like, a lot. I think its creator, UK-based Daniel Sell, strives and succeeds at making thoughtful work. I consider him a friend, whom I’ve had personal (albeit Internet-bound) interactions now and again.

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I have BJ Recio to thank for the following insight. Talking to him about “Exotic Warrior”, BJ brought up a crucial point that I’ll paraphrase here:

Roleplaying the outsider can be bad, especially when it is used as an excuse by the West to do fucked-up shit. But it is not default bad. Assuming it is default bad centres the discussion on “Will White people fuck this up? (Yes.)”

Essentially, the argument against “Playing a character from the Other / that is Other-ed = BAD" assumes two things:

(a) Western participants as default; (b) harm (because of ignorance or bad faith) as default.

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If your context -- your Background, hah! -- prompts you to experience Troika! with those assumptions; and therefore read “Exotic Warrior” as necessarily Orientalist, and racially-charged?

Your context is your context; I’m not going to invalidate it.

If you are located in a society where the binary of White / non-White overpowers everything, I certainly understand the whys and hows of your position.

Your context matters.

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So does mine.

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I think I’m reacting badly to this because I personally feel turned away by this RPG Discourse Around Representation (tm), supposedly done in the name of my East-Asian ass.

I resent the idea that “Playing a character from the Other / that is Other-ed = BAD”. It threatens to render verboten the entirety of my RPG work.

I am a SEA creator trying to explore and be true to my context. If there is one constant throughout SEAsian experience, it is difference.

Our peoples have ever encountered and glamourised and hated each other, all of us simultaneously Us and the Other:

Japanese and Malay enclaves in Ayutthaya; Mongol invaders in Java, who never left; Luzones mercenaries, employed by both the Sultan of Melaka and his Portuguese enemies; The reputation of the Ilanun / Bajak Laut; White conquistadors (aforementioned above); The entire history of diaspora Chinese identities (my identity!) in SEA, generally;

Foreigners from foreign lands -- feared, not fully understood, not fully understanding, simultaneously conquering and settling and finding modes of belonging, becoming a part of the land.

Always arriving.

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That the background music of my geography, discordant though it may be, is somehow so harmful it may only be meaningfully depicted in the hermetic context of a “game specifically designed to explore that”?

This feels bad, and extremely unwelcoming. It feels like a shut gate instead of an open door.

I refuse to be turned away.

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(Hopefully I can finally stop thinking about this shit.)

[preserving-ferretbrain]

Quis Copyright Ipsos Custodes?

by Dan H

Wednesday, 06 June 2012

Dan rambles about copyright, DC, and the Watchmen Prequels~

Poking around the internets a couple of days ago I discovered the

following article

about the upcoming (or by the time this article is published, recently released) Watchmen Prequels.

I'm in two minds about this. Part of me says that this is a horrible shameless cash-in that pisses on the memory on one of the greatest graphic novels in history. Another part of me says that the first part of me is just being reactionary and fanboyish.

The Slate article I link at the top of this piece starts off with the oft-repeated observation that DC paid Siegel and Shuster $130 for the rights to Superman and went on to make a shit-ton of money out of the Man of Steel while his creators died in relative poverty. It also points out that the estate of Jack Kirby, who created most of the original Avengers saw nothing from the recent movie.

Now obviously there is a lot wrong with the comics industry. Comic book companies do treat a lot of their writers and artists like shit, and the comics fandom as a whole is as problematic as all fuck. But try as I might, I can't get angry about the fact that the rights to most comic book characters are owned by big companies, instead of by the people who created those characters for those companies.

Perhaps it's that my professional background is in Education while what limited creative background I have is in RPGs, so I'm very used to the idea that what I do in either my professional or my creative life ceases to be mine the moment I put it out into the world. If one of my D&D players wrote a book based on my campaign, I might expect a thank-you but I wouldn't expect royalties, and I obviously don't expect my students to cut me in on their future earnings just because I teach them things which help them get on in their lives (nor does it bother me that the various syllabus documents, schemes of work, and sets of revision notes I have produced as part of my work belong to my school and not to me).

Indeed thinking about it from the perspective of any industry apart from the creative media, the notion that somebody might deserve a share of the profits from a piece of work somebody else does based on work they did as part of their job ten years earlier is completely alien. It reminds me, tangentially, of that

SMBC

strip which suggests that the principle known in academia as “publish or perish” is known in the rest of the world as “do your job or get fired.” There's the same peculiar sense that something which is seen as the mother of all injustices in one industry is just par for the course in most others.

To put it another way, although like most human beings I'm prone to irrational and inconsistent ideas, I do make a vague effort to keep my beliefs consistent with one another. And I'm a big fan of Creative Commons, a supporter of fanfiction, and a strong believer in fair use and the value of transformative works. I am not sure that I could reconcile my belief that the Harry Potter Lexiconhad every right to compile information from the Harry Potter books into an accessible format, or that people have the right to write original stories using other people's characters and put them on the internet (fanfiction.net, for what it is worth, already hosts nine hundred and forty pieces of Watchmen fanfic), with the belief that it is unreasonable for the people who published the original Watchmen to publish sequels if they damned well want to.

I think what bugs me the most about this issue, and more specifically with the attitude that it is somehow self-evident that the person who “creates” a character is entitled to royalties in perpetuity, is that it seems grounded in a mindset with which I am all too familiar. I am, as I believe I have said in many previous articles, an overeducated underachiever. I am very, very good at coming up with ideas and very, very bad at following them through.

The reason people like me react so strongly to the story of Siegel and Shuster isn't that we have genuine sympathy for the hardworking Jewish immigrants who were screwed over by the cynical fatcats at DC, it's that we're all dreaming of the day when we will come up with that one “idea” that will make us millionaires without our having to do any actual work. We baulk at the idea of comic book companies making millions from an idea for which they paid $130 not because it was exploitative (although it probably was) but because we see no value whatsoever in all other work that went into turning a $130 character idea into a billion-dollar IP. This is particularly ironic since a lot of that work was, in fact, done by Siegel and Shuster themselves (and it was work for which they were in fact well paid, Wikipedia reliably informs me that while the pair were only paid $130 for the rights to Superman they were paid $75,000 a year to write Superman – and that was in the 1940s).

People like me love to pretend that ideas are all that matter, that because The Avengers was a pre-existing IP, that all the people who made the film had to do was show up and shuffle things into vaguely the right order. This is, of course, nonsense. Yes, The Avengers wouldn't have existed without Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, but nor would it have existed without Wayne T. Silva the assistant payroll accountant, or Nuo Sun the actor trainer, or Matthew Roper the set medic, or any of the literally hundreds of people who were directly involved in making the actual movie. Of course the original characters are part of what made the film successful, but so is the fact that the actors did their stunts right, or that the payrolls were correctly managed.

Valuable intellectual properties aren't created by individual geniuses – even when a single person owns the copyright the actual brand (and make no mistake about it, thats all a valuable artistic property is – a brand that people buy into and want to hear stories about) is created by a vast army of professionals. We might believe that Harry Potter was created by JK Rowling, but in truth it was partly created by Thomas Taylor (who drew the first cover for Bloomsbury), Mary GrandPre (who drew all of the US covers and seems to have created the distinctive “Harry Potter” font later used in the movies) and Daniel Radcliffe. Yes, the fact that JK Rowling started out as an unemployed single parent and is now one of the richest people in Britain makes for a lovely rags-to-riches story, but one could make the case that she is (in part) reaping the rewards of other people's work. Building a brand, after all, is the role of a corporate marketing department, not an individual artist.

To put it another way, Siegel and Shuster may have created Superman, but it was undoubtedly DC that turned him into a billion-dollar brand, and it is downright perverse to celebrate the success of that brand while at the same time condemning the company that created that success. Did the creators of Superman get screwed? I honestly don't know. Certainly DC negotiated a contract that was in the company's interests rather than the artists', but it is not inherently wrong to make a lot of money out of something for which you initially paid very little money. If DC had known for certain that the Superman property would make millions then it might have been immoral to encourage Siegel and Shuster to give up all rights to the character, but they almost certainly didn't. They took a punt on the property, and it paid off.

Of course money isn't the only issue here. Alan Moore is far more upset about control of his creations than anything else. But even this is a commercial issue. It's easy to be snooty about the way the comics industry exploits its IPs, but – well – that's kind of how they make their money. More than that, it's kind of what's good about the medium. As in, what's artistically good. If Superman had remained in the exclusive control of its original creators, it would still look

like this

. Batman, by a similar token, would still look

like this

. Enduring comic-book characters remain relevant to a modern audience precisely because they are continually created and recreated, and this is possible only because the rights to these characters are owned not by their individual creators but by corporations. This idea doesn't sit comfortably in the mind of the average comics reader, who I suspect likes to place themselves on the side of the artist (not least because so many of us believe ourselves to be artists), but the truth is that we benefit directly from the system being the way it is.

Which brings us all back to the Watchmen prequels. The instinctive reaction of, I expect, most of nerddom, will be to raise a hue and cry because blah blah capitalism blah blah integrity blah blah cash-in blah blah blah. Because apparently we've forgotten that doing new things with old characters is what comic books are all about. The question of whether they are actually any good or not will be entirely academic (as

this edition of Our Valued Customers

nicely illustrates).

The whole thing seems grounded in a kind of skeevy Great Man Theory. The prequels might be brilliant, or they might be terrible, but what people seem to be concerned about is the fact that they will no longer be the product of One Man's Genius, that the mere fact that the prequels will not be written by Alan Moore irrevocably taints them. The whole thing reminds me of the kerfuffle over the proposed (but I believe never realised) Buffy revamp, when people were up in arms about the idea of Buffy without Joss Whedon. Even more peculiarly, people were insisting that a de-Whedoned Buffy would be a terrible blow against feminism, despite the fact that the lead writer on the proposed revamp would have been an actual woman.

This last point – that taking a property away from its straight, white, male creator will be bad for women and ethnic minorities – was made quite explicitly in the Slate piece that inspired this article:

For example: Moore’s comics have often been concerned with feminism, and one theme of Watchmen is that the superhero genre is built in part on retrograde sexual politics and thuggish rape fantasies. And how does Before Watchmen address these issues? Like so. If this were some piece of fan fiction detritus—naked Dr. Manhattan, porn-faced Silk Spectre!—it would be funny. But given that this is an "official" product, it starts to be harder to laugh it off.

I'm not sure where to begin with this. The first thing I'd say is that I have no idea which version of Watchmen this person was reading if they (a) think that “naked Dr Manhattan” is in any way a deviation from the original text and (b) think it's remotely appropriate to describe the original comic as “feminist”. This is a comic in which the fact that Sally Jupiter had a relationship with, and became pregnant by, the man that raped her is the detail which convinces Dr Manhattan that humanity is beautiful and worth saving (this is a slightly uncharitable gloss to put on that moment in the comics, but only slightly).

The second thing I'd say is that I can't help but notice that the article not only assumes that you can deduce an entire comic's gender politics from the cover of one trade paperback, but also fairly deliberately chooses the only cover that could have remotely illustrated his point. You can look at all of the other covers

here

. Most of them don't feature women at all, but this is a consequence of there only being one significant female character in the original text, which is surely Moore's fault as much as anybody else's (and again, doesn't seem to say much for his “concern for feminism”). You might specifically want to take a closer look at the cover of the

Silk Spectre

prequel, which is not only a good not-especially-sexualised portrayal of the character, but which is also drawn by an actual woman.

I think what I find most ironic about the backlash against the Watchmen prequels is that it's grounded in the very same notions of heroism which the comic itself deconstructs. The only reason to believe that (as the Slate article puts it):

Rorschach and Nite Owl and Dr. Manhattan have been raised from their resting place, and Moore—and the rest of us—now get to watch them stagger around, dripping bits of themselves across the decades, until everyone has utterly forgotten that they ever had souls.

Is if we accept that Alan Moore is somehow so uniquely talented that nobody except for him is capable of writing decent stories with those characters. As if somehow Moore's talent was so great that unlike Superman, Batman, the X-Men, the Avengers, or all of the characters he purloined for League of Extraordinary Gentlemen his creations would be uniquely tainted if they were touched by lesser mortals.

Perhaps even more tragically, this really does seem to be Moore's attitude. In

this interview

he makes a number of almost embarrassingly self-aggrandising claims about how uncreative, miserable and talentless pretty much everybody working in the mainstream comics industry is. He also, inexplicably, insists that his use of the character of Allan Quatermain in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is different from the Watchmen prequels because apparently nobody had heard of Allan Quatermain before he put him in a comic (whereas Dr Manhattan is – what �� a literary icon?). And complains that the people who got his share of the money from the Watchmen and Extraordinary Gentlemen movies didn't ring him up and personally thank him.

Perhaps the most mystifying quote in the whole interview is the part where he claims that the people working on Before Watchmen are doing so because: “It will probably be the only opportunity they get in their careers to actually be attached to a project that anybody outside of comics has ever heard of”. Leaving aside the fact that one of the writers on the project is J. Michael Straczynski – who created one of the most respected (although perhaps also most overrated) works of TV SF ever made – what is Moore smoking if he believes that anybody outside of comics has heard of Watchmen at all other than as that movie that guy made in 2009.

The thing is, Alan Moore absolutely does have the right to be bitter and angry about this whole affair, because he did get screwed by DC. But whatever he might think, Watchmen is not some dazzling beacon that demonstrated to the outside world the true potential of the comic-book medium. It's an okay-but-slightly-dated long-form comic book which comics nerds (and only comics nerds) obsess about because they think it makes them look clever.

The Watchmen prequels are very likely to be dull and uninspiring, but that is because Watchmen is dull and uninspiring. And any spark or relevance they have for a modern audience will have come from the people who wrote and drew them, it will not have been reflected from Alan Moore's imaginary genius.

Themes:

Topical

,

Sci-fi / Fantasy

,

Comics

,

Watchmen

~

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Arthur B

at 14:31 on 2012-06-06I simultaneously have no sympathy for the "what about Alan Moore?" argument but also think

Before Watchmen

is highly likely to be an enormous waste of time.

On the first point, it's worth noting that originally Alan Moore

didn't intend to use original characters for Watchmen at all

. Moore wanted to use the characters from the Charlton Comics stable of superheroes, which DC had acquired after Charlton bit the dust. DC were like "ummmm... we'd prefer you didn't junk these characters, why not make some original ones anyway?", Moore acquiesced and cooked up the Watchmen we know and love as thinly-veiled re-imaginings of the Charlton chumps.

The important thing about this anecdote, vis-a-vis this discussion, is that

the entire concept of Watchmen came about as a result of the corporate ownership of characters created by people who were not Alan Moore, and Moore wanting to write a story very much at odds with the original intentions of the characters' creators.

So the idea that the

Watchmen

characters somehow get to be sacred and mustn't be tampered with when they owe their very existence to Moore wanting to tamper with other people's characters seems pretty hypocritical to me.

On the other hand, with respect to

Before Watchmen

itself, I can't see how it can really be very interesting.

Watchmen

was constructed like one of those really cool domino runs - the interesting thing is watching this very delicate setup collapsing as the result of one little push. Watching the dominos getting set up before the actual domino run is just going to be tedious and I'd rather not.

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Wardog

at 14:54 on 2012-06-06I'd have more sympathy for Moore in general if he was less of a complete dick...

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Arthur B

at 15:07 on 2012-06-06Theologically Moore says he believes that all fictions are real in some sense.

If that were the case it shouldn't matter that someone else is using those characters or messing with those stories because they were never Moore's in the first place, he just found them.

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http://fishinginthemud.livejournal.com/

at 16:01 on 2012-06-06

The whole thing seems grounded in a kind of skeevy Great Man Theory.

This is a bit of a tangent, and I apologize if it goes too far off course.

I've been thinking about the Great Man Theory as it applies to capitalism and entrepreneurship, especially the popular notion that all great successes in business are the work of individual (male) supergeniuses. An entrepreneur has a Great Idea that works and makes him billions, he becomes a cultural icon, and he can then do no wrong until he does. Women can't have Great Ideas, because barefoot pregnant make me a sandwich.

The other day I hear a guy bring up that Sheryl Sandberg is the real brains behind Facebook, for taking that slack-ass Mark Zuckerberg's idea and finding a way to make it profitable. Another guy loudly counters that Zuckerberg was the "visionary" who had the "great idea" for Facebook and therefore deserves 100% of the credit and fame he's received at everyone else's expense.

Now obviously Zuckerberg's role in Facebook was much greater than simply coming up with the original idea, and his role in creating and running the company shouldn't be downplayed. And the second guy is a bitter, thwarted misogynist anyway, so if Sandberg and Zuckerberg's roles had been switched he'd be championing execution over ideas. It just strikes me that an idea rarely, if ever, starts out as a Great Idea, and only becomes so in hindsight. If we're not used to thinking of women's ideas as potentially Great Ideas, we're never going to get to the point where women have a reputation for Great Ideas to point to. And of course nascent ideas are a lot harder to judge fairly and objectively than, say, job performance.

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James D

at 17:35 on 2012-06-06

The important thing about this anecdote, vis-a-vis this discussion, is that the entire concept of Watchmen came about as a result of the corporate ownership of characters created by people who were not Alan Moore, and Moore wanting to write a story very much at odds with the original intentions of the characters' creators. So the idea that the Watchmen characters somehow get to be sacred and mustn't be tampered with when they owe their very existence to Moore wanting to tamper with other people's characters seems pretty hypocritical to me.

While you have a point, I think it's oversimplifying to some degree. I'm pretty sure that, had Moore been allowed to use those old characters, they would have been significantly and obviously different from the originals. They would have been almost totally reimagined. With the Watchmen prequels, they're supposedly about the actual characters themselves, so what happens in the prequels may directly relate to what happens in the original graphic novel itself.

Even so, I really just don't see what the big deal is, to be perfectly honest. It'd be one thing if Alan Moore were some poor downtrodden author whose works barely got any attention beyond a small but loyal cult following, and then some huge corporate giant came in and swindled him out of his rights and completely ran away with the man's franchise in a way he never intended and never credited him with anything. But The Watchmen is a very, very well-known graphic novel. There have been numerous sequels written to the Oz books by a variety authors, yet nobody really bitches and moans about those because the originals are firmly understood to be the originals. The millions of Star Wars tie-in books, games, action figures, etc. don't somehow warp the quality of the original movies.

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Arthur B

at 17:49 on 2012-06-06

While you have a point, I think it's oversimplifying to some degree. I'm pretty sure that, had Moore been allowed to use those old characters, they would have been significantly and obviously different from the originals. They would have been almost totally reimagined. With the Watchmen prequels, they're supposedly about the actual characters themselves, so what happens in the prequels may directly relate to what happens in the original graphic novel itself.

Actually, as I understand it the point was to use established characters with an established history to sucker in readers with a cosy sense of familiarity before exposing them to just how vile the characters really are, so had that plan gone ahead I imagine it would have involved more than a few callbacks to the Charlton stable's original stories.

But it's impossible to say one way or another because DC didn't let Moore do it.

The millions of Star Wars tie-in books, games, action figures, etc. don't somehow warp the quality of the original movies.

Of course, in the case of Star Wars George Lucas has proved himself perfectly capable of ruining it all by himself...

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http://scipiosmith.livejournal.com/

at 18:09 on 2012-06-06

The whole thing reminds me of the kerfuffle over the proposed (but I believe never realised) Buffy revamp, when people were up in arms about the idea of Buffy without Joss Whedon. Even more peculiarly, people were insisting that a de-Whedoned Buffy would be a terrible blow against feminism, despite the fact that the lead writer on the proposed revamp would have been an actual woman.

Disregarding Buffy's feminism (I never interpreted Buffy as a show about feminism but rather about vampires, becasue I was 10) I don't think you can argue that it would have been different. Star Trek was very different after Gene Roddenberry's death to what it was before; which some people preferred and some people hated, but the difference is undeniable. So if you thought that Buffy was perfect just the way it was I can see the idea of someone messing it about might be upsetting.

Of course people ought to be honest and admit that they don't like the idea because they don't want their cherished memories polluted instead of trying to conjure politics, but that wouldn't sound as good in Slate.

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http://scipiosmith.livejournal.com/

at 18:09 on 2012-06-06Sorry, wouldn't have been different.

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http://barefoottomboy.livejournal.com/

at 18:40 on 2012-06-06Not being overly attached to Watchmen (or Alan Moore in general), I may not be best placed to make this call, but I just can't get too worked up about the prospect of a prequel that isn't/might not be as good as the original. As James D says, the existence of (a) prequel(s) doesn't negate the existence of the original, or somehow retrospectively reduce its quality.

Not to say that all prequels/sequels/extensions/whatever are always a good idea, of course. But if you don't like them, there's nothing stopping you ignoring them and sticking to the originals you liked in the first place.

In terms of creators getting screwed over by copyright & the comic book industry, I really don't know enough about either to comment intelligently. Though I must confess that my immediate/gut reaction to Jack Kirby's *estate* losing out on a share of the profit of the Avengers film is "so freaking what? Why should I care about Jack Kirby's estate - what did they have to do with the creation of those characters?".

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Arthur B

at 19:29 on 2012-06-06

Though I must confess that my immediate/gut reaction to Jack Kirby's *estate* losing out on a share of the profit of the Avengers film is "so freaking what? Why should I care about Jack Kirby's estate - what did they have to do with the creation of those characters?".

We care because it's the 18th Century and people's copyrighted works aren't just meant to earn them money, it's also meant to be a way for them to provide for their wives and children.

This is

literally

the only reason why copyright has this weird "until the author's death plus X years" duration thing going on.

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http://scipiosmith.livejournal.com/

at 20:25 on 2012-06-06You say that like its such a bad thing.

I must say I'm of the opinion that if you can live on unearned income you probably should- and free up a slot in the job market for someone who needs it.

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James D

at 21:15 on 2012-06-06

Of course, in the case of Star Wars George Lucas has proved himself perfectly capable of ruining it all by himself...

One might say the same of Michael Moorcock and Elric, or any number of other creators who went on to ruin their creations. Honestly, when it comes to shoddy sequels, I can't really think of any corporation that did as much damage to other people's characters as those two did to their own. There are plenty of shoddy corporate sequels out there, to be sure, but does Alien: Resurrection really tarnish Alien at all? I certainly wouldn't say so. It's much harder to be that sure about the Star Wars prequels, or Moorcock's ill-advised later Elric stories that he shoehorned into the original chronology, when new viewers/readers could very well go into those series and take them as a whole, without differentiating much between the old and the new.

An argument might be made that the comics industry is unfairly entrenched in the practice of forcing authors to sign the rights of their characters over if they want to be published, but as I mentioned earlier it's not like Moore and his family are starving while corporate fat cats reap the benefits of his ideas. It's not like they're spuriously attaching Moore's name to projects he has no part of. There may be an argument to be made here, but The Watchmen is hardly the ideal battleground for it.

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http://melaniedavidson.livejournal.com/

at 21:53 on 2012-06-06

He also, inexplicably, insists that his use of the character of Allan Quatermain in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is different from the Watchmen prequels because apparently nobody had heard of Allan Quatermain before he put him in a comic

I think it's funny that he chose probably the most obscure character for that example. Because even if Allan Quatermain was "almost entirely forgotten" (I don't know if this is the case even though I personally hadn't heard of him), the others are all from pretty well-known classics. I'm sure he knew how ridiculous it would sound if he said Jekyll and Hyde were obscure and forgotten and only about six people had heard of the story.

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Arthur B

at 22:07 on 2012-06-06

You say that like its such a bad thing. I must say I'm of the opinion that if you can live on unearned income you probably should- and free up a slot in the job market for someone who needs it.

The number of copyrighted works which actually still rake in a substantial amount of royalties decades after publication is amazingly small. I don't know whether the Tolkien Estate rakes in enough loot from LOTR for Christopher Tolkien and his extended family to sustain themselves without working - I suspect not given the drip-drip-drip of unpublished works coming out from those quarters. In fact, a hell of a lot of the beneficiaries of properties which still rake in mad loot after decades aren't estates or widows or orphans at all. It's the Disney Corporation and people like them.

An argument might be made that the comics industry is unfairly entrenched in the practice of forcing authors to sign the rights of their characters over if they want to be published, but as I mentioned earlier it's not like Moore and his family are starving while corporate fat cats reap the benefits of his ideas.

And of course anything we can say about the state of comics industry author contracts with regards to Watchmen applies mainly to contracts as they existed in the 1980s, when the rights were actually handed over, and offers us little insight into contracts as they exist now.

The situation in the 1980s isn't one I've investigated much, but today I'm really not bothered about it. We exist in an age when if a comic creator wants to publish their work online for everyone to enjoy, they can do so - and in fact make some money out of it. Enough to live lavishly? Probably not, but unless you're writing/drawing a big heap of stuff for DC/Marvel as well as your own personal pet projects you're not likely to be earning great cash from them either. There's no

reason

to even offer your all-original creations up to DC or Marvel in the first place unless think signing over your rights to them is a worthwhile price to pay to get wider distribution and a higher profile - and if you don't think that's a worthwhile price, don't sign the contract in the first place.

Conversely, if you want to write for DC and Marvel because you want to write stories using their characters, it's only fair that they should have editorial control over what you do and only fair that they get to play with any original creations you add to their universes. If you want to play in the big sandpit which is Gotham City (or wherever) it's silly to expect to be allowed to take your sandcastle home with you, and short-sighted to imagine that another kid won't kick over or improve your sandcastle once you leave.

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Dan H

at 22:44 on 2012-06-06

I think it's funny that he chose probably the most obscure character for that example. Because even if Allan Quatermain was "almost entirely forgotten" (I don't know if this is the case even though I personally hadn't heard of him), the others are all from pretty well-known classics. I'm sure he knew how ridiculous it would sound if he said Jekyll and Hyde were obscure and forgotten and only about six people had heard of the story.

That's a good point and one I'd failed to notice.

(Sorry, I have no comment beyond that)

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https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkWbOwQVOANXVz3Xs8lGIILC0qzTMuEKS4

at 13:13 on 2012-06-07

Leaving aside the fact that one of the writers on the project is J. Michael Straczynski – who created one of the most respected (although perhaps also most overrated) works of TV SF ever made

Wow, I didn't realise Jeremiah was so popular!

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Sister Magpie

at 02:54 on 2012-06-09

I'm sure he knew how ridiculous it would sound if he said Jekyll and Hyde were obscure and forgotten and only about six people had heard of the story.

I'm not that familiar with LoEG but the little I remembered from it was making me ask just this question!

I must say I'm of the opinion that if you can live on unearned income you probably should- and free up a slot in the job market for someone who needs it.

But what's funny about that is that it's actually not about giving all money to someone for having the idea. Once you're talking about the estate you're saying that it's somehow more ethical to pay someone for being related to the person who created the character than for being the person who had something to do with making the character famous.

I really think people's real fright when it comes to things like this is that someone's going to tell a story they really don't like that bums them out--and I can sympathize because I hate it when comics play around with backstory in ways I don't like. Luckily if a story sucks it usually gets quietly dropped from continuity anyway. (There's a name for it I can't remember, referring to a bizarre alien who visited the Flash...)

With Watchman it seems like it's got a lot to do with the importance that Watchman is supposed to have, even though it's not really that tremendous.

Also, not only is it ironic that Moore was originally planning to use someone else's characters for the story, but it's not like Moore hasn't made some major changes to other peoples' characters and left others to sort them out. For instance, by paralyzing Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke. I know he says he never knew it would be in continuity, but it changed comics--and not because of his story (which gets imo overpraised) but because other people came in afterwards with an idea for the character.

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Sister Magpie

at 02:55 on 2012-06-09Oh, p.s. That reminds me, thinking of the TKJ that yeah, I am really confused by the idea that Watchman needs to be kept in the hands of AM because other writers--especially female ones--will mess up all the feminism.

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Arthur B

at 13:14 on 2012-06-09

I know he says he never knew it would be in continuity, but it changed comics--and not because of his story (which gets imo overpraised) but because other people came in afterwards with an idea for the character.

I think it would be incredibly short-sighted for any comics author to say "but I didn't know that this idea I put forward in a

Batman

story would become

Batman

continuity!"

I mean, I see that you genuinely wouldn't know whether any particular story of yours would become key canon, get banished to the outer darkness of non-canonicity, or linger somewhere in between. But to not at least consider the possibility that DC might declare that something you have done should stick seems to involve wilfully ignoring how comics continuity works in the first place.

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Adrienne

at 23:09 on 2012-06-09Arthur B: Not so much so, actually. There's a lot of stuff done by the major comix houses that's very specifically pitched and written from the start as not-in-continuity. All of the

Elseworlds

from DC, and similar "What If..." stories from Marvel are in this category, as are the "Ultimate [Whoever]" stories by Marvel that explore alternate origins.

I grant that a VERY FEW of the Elseworlds stories have eventually ended up with bits in continuity (they apparently wrote a sequel series to Kingdom Come, and brought bits of that timeline into continuity. Which makes me sad, mostly because i think Kingdom Come was a remarkably self-contained and lovely piece of storytelling!) But if Alan Moore was told that Killing Joke was Elseworlds, frex, it would not at all have been an unreasonable assumption that nothing in it was going to ever be in continuity.

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Arthur B

at 23:32 on 2012-06-09

Not so much so, actually. There's a lot of stuff done by the major comix houses that's very specifically pitched and written from the start as not-in-continuity. All of the Elseworlds from DC, and similar "What If..." stories from Marvel are in this category, as are the "Ultimate [Whoever]" stories by Marvel that explore alternate origins.

True enough, though

The Killing Joke

wasn't, to my knowledge, promoted as being any of these (and as you point out, if an idea in an Elseworlds thingy gets popular enough then it'll snake its way into canon anyway).

As you say, if Alan Moore was told that

The Killing Joke

was an Elseworlds but then it wasn't promoted as one that'd be kind of sucky on the part of DC, but I don't see any suggestion that that was the case. On the other hand, I don't see that this is one of the reasons why he's upset with his treatment by DC in any case. Surely any comics author would be

thrilled

to have a plot element they introduced become a major ongoing thread in Batman continuity rather than something retconned away within a story or two?

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Sonia Mitchell

at 13:08 on 2012-06-12I have to admit to feeling that Watchmen is a bit of a special case, not because of merit (although I do like it an awful lot) but because it's *specifically* about how characters interpret the past. The story's present is not the key date; it's the lead-up to the Keane Act that the narrative really revolves around.

Which does kind of mean that any 'glory days' Minute Men [II] prequel is going to be dipping into the same timeline Watchmen covers in the narrative, which to me blurs the line between 'prequel' and 'reinterpreting a story which has already been told'. Watchmen showed us the Minute Men days from a number of perspectives - either the prequels will show more of the same old thing (in which case why bother?) or they'll introduce something which will specifically challenge the parent narrative.

I'm sort of intrigued to see what they do, and I do agree that Watchmen can bear to be challenged, I just don't think it's quite as clear-cut as some other prequels. Yes, plenty of comics and other stories have had backstory added later, but I don't think all that many of them were specifically *about* backstory.

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https://me.yahoo.com/a/bpFlIkMVk4ZqOVtCOXzX2V_0665JvfqFHA--#af083

at 14:16 on 2012-06-13A thoughtful and thought provoking essay. Excellent stuff.

I wonder, though, if your focus on commerce and copyright doesn’t tend to swerve a bit around Alan Moore's concerns. I think that the argument is not that DC and the writers and artists involved can't produce Watchmen prequels but rather that, for aesthetic or artistic reasons, they ought to choose not to. And the question of who profits from the endeavour is, as far as I can see, neither here nor there for these purposes.

So Watchmen is, according to this view, a finished work of art, and by monkeying around with the characters and back story you monkey around also with the integrity of the work; you risk diluting its affect or altering its cultural resonance. You might legitimately argue that no amount of monkeying prevents Watchmen from continuing to exist as the thing that it is. However, there seem two reasonably valid counterpoints, both stemming from the basic assumption that art is rarely meaningful without context. First, as Sonia Mitchell very acutely pinpoints above, Watchmen is very much about time and continuity, the future and the past, and by filling in the backstory you almost necessarily, although perhaps in a limited sense, do damage to the extant work. Second, Watchmen speaks implicitly to comics as a medium, and part of its power may be that it remains separate from the usual retrofitting, rebooting, continuity errors and the associated slash and burn approach to narrative. These arguments still rather depend on a willingness to think of Watchmen as exceptional, I admit (although as far as US superhero comics go I think it takes a lot of work to say that it’s not).

What I suspect really gets Moore’s goat about this is the simple disrespect, in particular as evidenced by his fellow artists. Watchmen is his single best claim to cultural relevance and longevity, he has explicitly said he’d much rather they left it alone, and yet still a whole bunch of quite eminent comics dudes (many of whom seem to bang on about how much they like/admire/were influenced by Moore in general and Watchmen in particular) are happy to take a DC cheque to monkey about with a story which he feels is complete.

On Moore ‘the personality’ I tend to think that while he may be intemperate, a bit silly, creatively stalled and less unimpeachable on, in particular, gender politics than I’d like, he’s generally more consistent, principled, and intellectually interesting than his opponents.

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Arthur B

at 14:40 on 2012-06-13

What I suspect really gets Moore’s goat about this is the simple disrespect, in particular as evidenced by his fellow artists.

Again, though: is this really that different from Moore's original intention to take characters and stories from the Charlton stable and monkey around with

them

? The only substantive difference is that whilst we know Moore's feelings about

Before Watchmen

nobody seems to have asked the Charlton creators how they'd have felt to have their characters despoiled had Moore's original vision for

Watchmen

come about.

I have a simple stance on these things: if you don't want someone to slaughter your baby,

don't sell your baby to them

. If

Watchmen

really is Moore's best claim to cultural relevance and longevity*, then at least part of that is down to DC's promotion of the book as this big-time smart comic for smart people and in their efforts in keeping it in print.**

* I'd dispute this point too.

V For Vendetta

, surely, has attained a greater level of cultural ubiquity thanks to Anonymous.

From Hell

is arguably on a par with

Watchmen

when it comes to critical acclaim.

** I understand that Moore argues that DC swindled him by not letting

Watchmen

go out of print, thus ensuring that the "reversion clause" in his contract would never kick in (which would have caused the rights to revert to him and Gibbons). It's hard to say how truthful or accurate this statement is unless Moore or DC actually publish the contract. However, if that is the case it seems that Moore negotiated a contract with DC where they'd either have to keep his comic in print for perpetuity - which I would argue goes a long way towards reinforcing that cultural relevance and longevity shebang - or give the rights back to him. In other words, they have to do one of two things they wouldn't do for Joe C. Ordinarywriter, and they chose the first option over the second option. Who could blame 'em?

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James D

at 15:04 on 2012-06-13The difference between the Watchmen characters and the Charlton Comics characters is that they were conceived very differently. When DC discouraged him from using the Charlton Comics characters, he invented his own - not to be a series, but to be a one-off novel with a specific character arc for each that brings their stories to a close. Comics writers inventing series understand that their characters will be written by other people, and probably take great pains to introduce plotlines and conflicts that they know won't ever truly be resolved or will at least last a really long time - Batman vs. Joker, Darkseid's quest for the Anti-Life Equation, etc. Watchmen instead invents characters not for a series, but for a novel, and ends them decisively.

Had Moore used the Charlton Comics characters, it would have been clear that the Watchmen story was very separate from their original stories, and highly unlikely to be ever seen as 'canon' to the original series, especially since he permanently kills a lot of them. Instead, it would have been seen by those who knew about the characters as an ironic counterpoint to who they actually were - like if someone wrote a one-off graphic novel in which Batman and Superman were evil, or something. That's the difference as I see it.

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Arthur B

at 17:52 on 2012-06-13Well, Moore thought that there'd be scope for a prequel - back when the thing first came out he said he'd consider doing one if

Watchmen

did well enough.

Of course, that was under the assumption that it'd be Moore writing it rather than someone else, which he was always against. But again: if someone doing something with your characters is unacceptable, don't sign a piece of paper giving them the right to do that.

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James D

at 19:00 on 2012-06-13Yeah, no argument here. It's not like there weren't alternative comics publishers back then that might have offered him a better deal in terms of what rights he would retain, but that would probably have involved settling for smaller print runs, less distribution, and less money in the end too.

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https://me.yahoo.com/a/bpFlIkMVk4ZqOVtCOXzX2V_0665JvfqFHA--#af083

at 12:38 on 2012-06-15

Again, though: is this really that different from Moore's original intention to take characters and stories from the Charlton stable and monkey around with them?

I think it’s pretty easy to draw distinctions (see eg James D. above), even if only of nuance, and I don’t, in any event, have much interest in asserting that Alan Moore is a paragon of moral and philosophical consistency (although he may very well be). However, I suspect that the extent to which you find the distinctions convincing and the possibility of hypocrisy forgivable will in the end align with how highly you rate Watchmen.

I have a simple stance on these things: if you don't want someone to slaughter your baby, don't sell your baby to them.

I wonder if this simplification obscures more than it illuminates. Selling a baby might well reduce the stake you have in its future, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you have neither say nor interest in how the new owner treats it, and nor does it mean that they have no responsibilities towards it, particularly in a world where baby-sale is the standard means by which babies are encouraged to fulfil their potential. However, this just takes us into contract law, and as I say there’s no suggestion that DC are doing anything illegal.

If Watchmen really is Moore's best claim to cultural relevance and longevity*, then at least part of that is down to DC's promotion of the book as this big-time smart comic for smart people and in their efforts in keeping it in print.**

Sure, I suppose so - good work DC! But so what?

It’s not directly relevant to this issue, but I’ve always struggled with the characterisation of Watchmen as a smart comic for smart people, it strikes me as at its best if understood as a smart superhero comic for smart superhero comics fans.

You may well be right about V for Vendetta, and From Hell - it’s probably an indication of my age that I still think of Watchmen as a sacred cow.

I’ll set out my stall for what it’s worth (the paper it’s written on, ie): I don’t care very much about Watchmen prequels, although I’d prefer it if they didn’t make them and I suspect DC of being a creatively bankrupt shower; I don’t think the prequels will do harm to Watchmen but I do think there’s a genuine risk that they might; I don’t find Alan Moore’s response to the decision particularly edifying; but I think he’s earnt the right to the respect of his peers and to be heard sympathetically.

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Arthur B

at 13:25 on 2012-06-15

Sure, I suppose so - good work DC! But so what?

So then Watchmen as a cultural institution is not purely a product of Alan Moore's unfettered genius or Dave Gibbons' stylish art; it's also a product of the promotion that DC has provided it with and DC's custodianship over the franchise as a whole. DC has a stake in the thing's success, and has more than earned it with said custodianship, so the idea that DC has no place to decide whether or not a prequel series would be a good idea because AUTHOR UBER ALLES seems a stretch. You can quibble as to whether DC is

practically capable

of doing a good job or whether the particular writers they have are up to the task, of course, though the arguments Dan's objecting to in the article aren't about such specifics; they're about general, absolutist claims that the prequels

cannot possibly be good because Alan Moore isn't involved

.

You may well be right about V for Vendetta, and From Hell - it’s probably an indication of my age that I still think of Watchmen as a sacred cow.

I dunno, I can't think of

any

pop cultural work which I'd describe as a sacred cow these days whereas I was much more inclined to do so when I was younger.

I don’t find Alan Moore’s response to the decision particularly edifying; but I think he’s earnt the right to the respect of his peers and to be heard sympathetically.

I think he has the right to be heard but how sympathetic I hear him kind of hinges on how much what he says makes sense to me. If someone's talking whiny, self-serving crap then I'm going to call it that whether it's Alan Moore or Random McWebcomicartist.

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James D

at 14:19 on 2012-06-15

So then Watchmen as a cultural institution is not purely a product of Alan Moore's unfettered genius or Dave Gibbons' stylish art; it's also a product of the promotion that DC has provided it with and DC's custodianship over the franchise as a whole. DC has a stake in the thing's success, and has more than earned it with said custodianship, so the idea that DC has no place to decide whether or not a prequel series would be a good idea because AUTHOR UBER ALLES seems a stretch.

I think this is oversimplifying things. The roles Moore and DC fulfilled in the production of the Watchmen were totally different; as far as I know, DC had little to nothing to do with the creative aspect of the novel, and Moore's objections to the prequels seem to be purely creative in nature. If on the other hand the dispute were on the business side, that Moore didn't think Watchmen prequels would sell and DC did, the shoe would be on the other foot.

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Arthur B

at 14:31 on 2012-06-15Again, since Moore a) wanted to do prequels back in 1985 and b) has said he'd have gladly accepted DC's offer to do the prequels (which was going to involve giving him the rights to

Watchmen

back if he said yes!!!) if they'd offered in 1985, then it seems to me that the dispute is entirely on the business side and the complete collapse of Moore and DC's professional relationship (and more particularly, the fact that Moore would rather keep sulking than engage in any sort of constructive dialogue with DC, even one which would lead to him getting what he'd wanted all along).

Also, FWIW Dave Gibbons is 100% fine with the prequels, so at half the original creative team is cool with the project.

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James D

at 17:37 on 2012-06-15Ah, I didn't know Gibbons was down with them. That does change things a bit. Moore is pretty much handling the whole thing like a big whiny baby. If there were prequels coming out to a book I'd written and there was nothing I could do about it, the first thing I'd say was "let me do them." If he didn't have ridiculous demands, DC would probably jump at the chance to slap Moore's name all over them.

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https://me.yahoo.com/a/bpFlIkMVk4ZqOVtCOXzX2V_0665JvfqFHA--#af083

at 09:39 on 2012-06-18

So then Watchmen as a cultural institution is not purely a product of Alan Moore's unfettered genius or Dave Gibbons' stylish art; it's also a product of the promotion that DC has provided it with and DC's custodianship over the franchise as a whole. DC has a stake in the thing's success, and has more than earned it with said custodianship, so the idea that DC has no place to decide whether or not a prequel series would be a good idea because AUTHOR UBER ALLES seems a stretch

.

Setting aside the perplexing CAPITALISED ALLUSION to the German national anthem (or possibly the Dead Kennedys), this is a fair point, although it seems designed to address a binary understanding of this dispute - I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has expressed a fairly mixed view, despite tending one way or the other. Meanwhile, the fact that DC are going ahead with this, in the face of Alan Moore’s explicit disapproval suggests that their interests are fairly well protected and represented. Your implicit notion that DC have earnt a right to a say in the artistic content of Watchmen (beyond questions of marketing, design and the commercially relevant business of protecting, managing and exploiting lucrative copyrights, I mean) is one that hadn’t really occurred to me, and that I instinctively don’t like, but I ought to go away and think about it properly. Thanks!

You can quibble as to whether DC is practically capable of doing a good job or whether the particular writers they have are up to the task, of course, though the arguments Dan's objecting to in the article aren't about such specifics; they're about general, absolutist claims that the prequels cannot possibly be good because Alan Moore isn't involved.

I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here so I’ll leave it.

I dunno, I can't think of any pop cultural work which I'd describe as a sacred cow these days whereas I was much more inclined to do so when I was younger. I think he has the right to be heard but how sympathetic I hear him kind of hinges on how much what he says makes sense to me. If someone's talking whiny, self-serving crap then I'm going to call it that whether it's Alan Moore or Random McWebcomicartist.

Quite a nice unintended irony here, but perhaps I’m just reeling from the old school ‘... yeah, I used to think that too … but then I grew up...’ dis. Is it possible, do you think, to imagine an

even older, even wiser Arthur

? I can just about manage it: he’s grizzled and twinkly-eyed, smoking a pipe, and, with a wry smile, looking down the years at his younger self’s righteous withholding of sympathy from both the mighty and the meek, his fearless enthusiasm for detecting 'whiny self-serving crap' in strangers, and his habit of slaying sacred cows while denying their existence.

JK! Before this degenerates into us chanting 'no YOU'RE immature!' at each other, I should also say, Arthur, that your precipitous enthusiasm for getting stuck in with the minimal possible delay is one of the things that make Ferretbrain fun for me, a fond reader.

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Arthur B

at 10:00 on 2012-06-18

Setting aside the perplexing CAPITALISED ALLUSION to the German national anthem (or possibly the Dead Kennedys), this is a fair point, although it seems designed to address a binary understanding of this dispute - I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has expressed a fairly mixed view, despite tending one way or the other.

Actually, it's a CAPITALISED ALLUSION to the extraordinarily pervasive idea that authors are an exalted form of being and anyone else's contribution to the success of a creative endeavour is secondary. Putting DC aside, I'd say there's a strong case that Dave Gibbons' contribution to the art, which extended to more than simply drawing stuff Moore described to him, is a part of the final package which can't be ignored, so Gibbons' support for the prequel project ought to be weighed against Moore's disapproval. And yet, so often in discussions about the subject Gibbons isn't even mentioned.

Is it possible, do you think, to imagine an even older, even wiser Arthur?

I can imagine all sorts of things, but winning an argument by hypothesising a version of your opponent who will agree with you is a strategem I hadn't even begun to conceive of. Bravo, I guess. ;)

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https://me.yahoo.com/a/bpFlIkMVk4ZqOVtCOXzX2V_0665JvfqFHA--#af083

at 10:16 on 2012-06-18Ha ha! Such a speedy reply, arguing so fiercely against points no one is currently making, is surely a nice intended irony!

I surrender the field to you Arthur - please continue to slag Alan Moore without any let or hindrance. I will instead exchange gentle, supportive imaginary emails with the imaginary future Arthur, who, you must concede, does at least seem like a jolly nice chap.

Good piece on the Soul Drinkers by the way.

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Arthur B

at 10:20 on 2012-06-18I anticipate being as confused by our future correspondence as I am by our present.

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http://fishinginthemud.livejournal.com/

at 19:50 on 2012-06-18

I will instead exchange gentle, supportive imaginary emails with the imaginary future Arthur, who, you must concede, does at least seem like a jolly nice chap.

Best. Flounce. Ever.

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Fin

at 23:51 on 2012-06-18and now for the moment when it's revealed that you've been speaking with your future self all along.

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Arthur B

at 00:08 on 2012-06-19/decodes lottery numbers from posts in thread.

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Ibmiller

at 18:44 on 2012-07-02So, anyone check any of these out? I'm currently following Silk Specter, Minutemen, and Nite Owl, and liking them. Because his Superman story left me cold and his Wonder Woman story leaves me furious, I'm giving Azzerello's Comedian and Rorschach stories a pass. Plus, I'm not a huge fan of those characters by themselves - seeing a young Rorschach with a Nite Owl is much more interesting to me.

[ayearofpike]

Spooksville #23: Phone Fear

Pocket Books, 1998 113 pages, 9 chapters ISBN 0-671-00271-6 LOC: CPB Box no. 1872 vol. 29 OCLC: 40402284 Released November 1, 1998 (per B&N)

When Bryce’s phone rings, and the caller demands he do horrible things to a local man or face consequences, the gang figures it’s a prank caller out to get them. But then Bryce gets hurt, and Adam gets the next call, and they know it’s serious. How could someone know everything about everybody everywhere at every time? Maybe it’s not someone, but someTHING, come to life and possessing a malevolent desire to undermine humanity.

As complex as this cover is, it’s a drastic oversimplification of the story within. I feel like here, and also with The Creepy Creature, we’re starting to get more of the genre expectation that there should be a gross green monster out to get the kids in the book. Also, notice how the characters on the covers are not as consistent as with the first few stories. Like, we hadn’t seen Charisma Carpenter show up before, and now she’s being attacked by some kind of telephone lizard.

It might fit with the huge jump in time we’re being expected to swallow, or perhaps Pike is glossing over it while nodding to the fact that it’s been two years since the start of this series. Because in the opening pages, we find that Adam and Cindy are now two-year Spooksville residents, getting used to the town but still plagued by its evil and quirkiness. So that means the kids are now fourteen? Pike doesn’t say, but they have to be, even though I’m fairly certain he marked them as twelve as recently as The Living Dead. (EDIT: They are still twelve on page ONE of The Creepy Creature, and they’re twelve AGAIN on page 31 of The Witch’s Gift. Obviously Pike just fucked up.) Still, even though time has been sort of glossed over for the last couple of titles, I think this jump might be too big to swallow. Makes me think Pike just wasn’t paying attention.

Still, we learn that the school year is almost over (which is, again, another big jump, as Pee-Pants was just wearing Santa jammies six books ago) and the kids are looking forward to summer. They’re discussing plans and hopes when Bryce’s phone rings. Why does a twelve fourteen-year-old have a cell phone in 1998? Well, he had one hidden before, so this might not be so weird. But the voice on the other end tells him to go break the postman’s windows. Obviously Bryce is not going to do that, but they decide to go warn the guy that someone is maybe out to get him. On the way, though, a black van races out of nowhere and jumps the curb and clips Bryce, breaking his leg.

They get their friend to the hospital and stabilized, but then start talking about who might be after them. Is it just one person? How did he move so quickly to know that Bryce wasn’t going to enact the evil action and have him punished? Why does he sound like a computer?  They try to go to the postman’s to do some research, but the guy isn’t answering his door. In fact, he blows out his own windows with a shotgun to scare the kids away and stop them going after him, like he knows something and is protecting himself. 

Adam is still holding onto Bryce’s phone, and it rings again as they’re walking away. This is his first experience hearing the voice: it’s oddly mechanical, like it’s being diffused through a computer somehow. The speaker identifies himself as Nernit, and tells Adam to go burn down some old lady’s house with her inside. Again, he obviously refuses, and this is when the gang is set upon by a strange girl in a long coat with a knife. After aliens and witches and demons and giant robot crabs, a teenage girl is no match for Sally and Cindy, who quickly disarm her. It turns out that she is, in fact, working for Nernit, and that she was sent here from a neighboring town just in case Bryce and Adam failed to carry out their tasks.

So it’s more than just local? Watch starts to put some pieces together. What is it that uses the phone line to communicate, and has a worldwide presence and a near-bottomless found of knowledge to draw from? Might it sound like a computer because it IS a computer? Or perhaps a network of computers, some kind of, I don’t know, international network? That pronounces its name “Nernit” because that’s how the speech-to-text program parses “Neernitt,” an anagram for Internet?

But now Watch is pretty sure he can get in touch with the being that has emerged from connectivity consciousness. He goes online and Googles whatever-search-engine-it-was-in-1998s “Neernitt,” which quickly leads to a black screen with red text talking directly to him. The presence refuses to talk or negotiate, insisting that humans are tools and not valued as equals to it. But Watch is pretty sure we have something Neernitt wants: a body. Autonomy. Freedom to get out of the computer and do something with our physical selves. Watch can give this to Neernitt, and of course it agrees.

There’s one catch: they have to produce the body in a week. We don’t have the know-how or the technology — but the Lemurians did, and it just so happens that they buried a robot at the end of the last book. Adam’s all salty about digging her up to befoul her final form with this megalomaniacal computer monster, but Watch feels it’s the only bargaining chip they have. And so he works nonstop with Bryce’s help over the course of a week. They don’t have anything else to do, because Neernitt’s minions are guarding the house so they can’t leave, with orders to shoot to kill if they try. (I guess what’s weird about this, what doesn’t fit with the rest of the series, is that it is so LATE getting to Spooksville. Normally the bizarre shit STARTS in this town.)

Adam is concerned that his friend is going over to the dark side. He sees only one hope: get hold of a gun somehow and take the robot body hostage so that they can get free and then ... what? He hasn’t really thought that far ahead, and if Neernitt is, indeed, global, there’s nowhere they can run that they can’t be traced and taken down. Still, it’s all he’s got. He swipes a weapon from a sleeping guard and points it at the robot head, which really only serves to make us all realize how expendable humans are to Neernitt. It quickly and remorselessly gains the upper hand, but before anyone can act in killing Adam, Watch leaps in the way. He insists that he needs to protect his friend, and that the project is not completeable without him, and so if Neernitt commands the shooting it will never have a body. So Neernitt concedes and lets the kids live. For now. (Weirdly, the girl with the long coat slept through the whole standoff.)

A couple days later, the body is ready, and Watch plugs it into the computer so Neernitt can download itself. Now it is free to roam and act however it likes — but first it commands the humans under its control to go rest. They end up gathering in Watch’s room, talking about what life is going to be like under the unmerciful claw of an all-seeing robot network. Watch is actually kind of interested in the idea of becoming a robot himself, though, and the new girl concurs that it could be pretty good. So they get up and go back to Neernitt, where Watch encourages him to unplug and go outside. Neernitt agrees that it’s time, on one condition: Watch must demonstrate how little he cares for a human body by shooting one of his colleagues.

He doesn’t hesistate: He picks up the provided rifle and blasts the new girl right in the chest. This is enough for Neernitt, who allows himself to be unplugged. But you know what that means? That means his consciousness is now limited to the robot body he is in, and tricksy Watch has built in an electromechanical overload circuit that allows him to short out the computer and effectively kill off the robot. So we’re all safe! But didn’t Watch just shoot a dude?

Yes — with a blank. (Fuckin’ Pike and his blanks, I swear to god.) It turns out that New Girl is the mastermind behind the whole thing. Neernitt isn’t a naturally occurring emerging consciousness, it’s a program, written by this girl to effect change and evolution upon humanity. Watch figured it out because of speech patterns and commonalities between them, and also that even though she was supposed to have been asleep during the standoff the computer in her room was on. She admits that she’s controlled Neernitt since the beginning. She’s tired of feeling things, of being hurt, and figures that if she were a robot she wouldn’t have to feel anymore. (There is NO backstory or exposition on any of this; just a teenager being moody, I guess.) But she is surprised to have started having GOOD feelings for Bryce, which Cindy does not care for at all. But now, maybe she’s ready to suck it up and deal with the pain of existence if it can go along with happy and warm feelings.

Does this end the same way as the previous one? Kinda, right? With the exception that THIS girl is not actually a robot, and she doesn’t die in the end. I didn’t think I’d see this in Spooksville, actually, but it parallels the Archway books in that Pike seems to see the writing on the wall and is winding himself down to complete the contract with the bare minimum of effort. There’s only one more book left in the series, and I’ve been led to understand it goes too quickly to effectlvely wrap things up. Let’s find out if he actually gives us the goddamn Watch backstory I’ve been wanting for twenty-three books. 

[knightofbalance-13]

https://thefairywzard.tumblr.com/post/163494894168/rwde-circus-drama-with-kob-part-1-the-first-shade

Now I could go through this whole thing and explain in detail why this is wrong but this is an example of the Gish Gallup fallacy so let me run through this quick and show you why it’s so stupid:

People of the rwde tag! You might have noticed a post recently, written by yours truly, about the lack of body diversity in our all-time favourite show RWBY: The Life and Times of Jaune Arc.

Playing to RWDE tag bias.

Predictably, our esteemed rwde troll and official laughing stock of the entire tag, KoB, decided to reply to my post and I think we’ve all had enough experience dealing with him by now to know where this led. I read over KoB’s… words and after bleaching my eyes with silt, I sat down to think about what I should do in response, if anything at all.

Ad Homenin

The Responsible™ and Adult™ thing would be to simply ignore his incomprehensible drivel and move on, possibly block him and maybe set up some salt circles for good measure. After all, usually the best thing to do when dealing with trolls is to keep them at arm’s length and try to not provoke them too much. That is the smart and sensible thing to do. That is how you avoid conflict with assholes online.

Refering to me as a demon

Ah, another day another troll on my posts. You know kob, I knew that eventually you’d pull something like this. I knew that after I was done eating my strips of rotten boar meat while sipping a 1945 La Pinot Noir that I would log on to tumblr dot com and see your small, sad little avatar in my notifications tab. And I would sigh and roll my tired eyes in contempt of pretty much your entire internet presence as far as rwby is concerned, before moving on to reading your long-winded, contradictory and dumb dumb arguments, all lined up in this neat little pile of poo that the FNDM calls “kob’s post history”. And then I would sigh again, questioning the meaning of life while enjoying a bowl of branflake cereal with chocolate chips and cinnamon.

Pseudo intellectualism

Believe it or not kob, it took some time to decide whether or not I should reply to the inane, animalistic screeches that you call counterarguments, but ultimately I decided this was too good an opportunity to miss on dragging yo ass. Obviously a confrontation is exactly what a slimy troll like you wants and technically I am enabling you and your ~predispositions~ by writing this, though I think the feeling of self-satisfaction I’ll get by talking shit to your face will be more than worth it. I should think most of the rwde tag has an extended knowledge of you and your interactions with the FNDM and most of us probably agree that you’re a trolling asshole, a ding dong and potentially Literally Satan™.

Ad Homien on par with early Catholic Church.

I will admit that volume 4 did shave off some muscle from our beloved lotus boy of suppressed emotions, but they have by no means added those to Ms Valkyrie.

Outright defeating own point and contradiction (Jaune and Nora have similarly sized arms. Look for yourself.)

Now I’m not gonna get into the teachers yet, because I’m genuinely curious as to what you meant when you commented on yang’s beefiness. I should like to think that these images make it pretty clear, even to someone as stubborn and as opinionated as you kob. Yang has no muscle. Never did. That sound you just heard was everyone in the rwde tag simultaneously whispering the words “oh snap”.

More outright contradictions and Ad Homenin. (yang’s official art shows the same arm type as Nora and jaune as oppose to Ren or Weiss)

Next up is the FNDMs favourite faunus of the hour, Blake Belladona. You will, once again, note the absence of muscles in her extremities. Gee it’s almost as if these characters all have the same body types, what a surprise. But by all means, keep insisting that Weiss is the slender one.

Not understanding what Atheletic means (Looks at Olympic swimmers: Ain’t no muscles there.)

What you don’t seem to understand kob is that not everyone sees the world under your fucked up, weird, distorted lens. Honestly what to begin with here? The unrelated comparisons? The blatant way you contradict yourself with the opening sentence? “Oh look at me I’m the infamous kob and I spend my days hating on people for making valid, critical points on shows I watch. RWBY doesn’t have a body problem because I say so, these characters are totally muscly and RT doesn’t want muscly women in their shows anyway so that’s why there are none after all, this doesn’t matter and no one cares”. Really now kob, if you’re going to try and delegitimize the issues I cite, you could at least do a better job at it.

In any case, I don’t especially remember CRWBY making public statements explaining in lengthy details why body diversity is their personal kryptonite and that’s why there’s none of it in the show. But then again I’m not as dedicated a fan as you have proven yourself to be, so maybe I missed that enlightening interview with the crew. I also don’t understand what made you bring Kill La Kill into this -as I would charitably call it- discussion, when that show is a clear deconstruction of rampant objectification in anime. It’s satire kob. It’s making fun of the dumb sexist tropes people see in shows so very often.

To be perfectly fucking candid kob, your determination to undermine my arguments by claiming that representation is “not a serious concern at all” is actually rather cute. Like a bigoted puppy furiously chewing on a couch. Indeed this vehement passion of yours is so strong that I’m beginning to suspect you get an intense hateboner whenever the rwde tag updates and this is your only method of release. 

Not addressing the point. Also: unrelated comparisons. Monty Oum stated that Gurren Lagann was an inspiration on RWBY and watched Kill La Kill. So in fact, I am comparing anime that have influenced RWBY.

As well: Not saying WHY body diversity would be an improvement.

Third; Misrepresntinga show (Kill La Kill outright says you shouldn’t care about what other people think. Remmeber Satsuki’s speech in Episode 3? Yeah, apparently you forgot to watch the other 23 episodes of the show.)

Fourth: Misrepresenting my argument (they don’t want to do it because they haven’t already done it, not through an interview.)

Fifith: projection.

Gosh what an interesting peephole we have here of kob’s mental inner workings. I never would have associated plus-sized people with Santa Claus, but I suppose that’s what happens if the content you consume is constantly deprived of diversity. Don’t worry kob, it’s not your fault that most media is monochromatic in more ways than one (but feverishly defending those that are kind of is). If you want to know why it’s important to have representation of all sorts in shows and other media, then I suggest you google that and find out for yourself.

Inserting words into my mouth.

Oh yes, beware the SJWs. They creep in your homes and hide in your cupboards. They’ll wait until you’re not paying attention and then pounce on you with anger and fury and a slight hint of sexual arousal. And as they suck your warm, viscous blood, they’ll start babbling about wanting fair representation in the media for marginalized groups of people and how the way to achieve that is to hold popular shows to a higher standard of diversity. I haven’t even gotten to the bit where they talk about queerness in media, THAT’S when shit get’s blood-curdlingly scary.

More projection.

See, this final “damming” ending statement brings me some discomfort; because I have to, for once, agree with kob. Having more diversity of body types (or any types for that matter) be present in a successful show will encourage other shows to follow suit. It’s like this thing, oh what’s it called, oh yeah progress. So you’re right on that at least. Now if you think diversity will add “nothing to the show” I would suggest that you a) educate yourself on the benefits of diversity and representation in media because that’s clearly an area you are sorely lacking in and b) go fuck yourself.

More Aad Hominin and misrepresenting what I said (I was referring to the fact that you would shoehorn in fat characters for the sake of brownie points instead of, you know, having well written fat people) and projection (thinking I’m skinny.)

I honestly don’t know how to explain to you that not everyone is like you and not everyone can binge the TV channels and see someone exactly like them represented in a randomly-selected show.

Assumptions (i didn’t know there was fat, balding, autistic 19 year olds with no dads. yeah, I’m fat too so most of your argument in that part is invalid, blading people are treated as a joke and the number of intentional written Autistic characters can be counted with only hands. And the number of WELL WRITTEN Autistic characters can be count on my hand if I chopped off seven fingers.)

Someone who isn’t constantly treated as a joke, or insulted within the show, or is nothing but a stereotype, or is pushed aside so that other characters can take the stage. If you can’t fit that concept into that head of yours because the slimy, fanged eel of hate inside is taking too much space, then the only thing for me left to do is to sincerely, wholeheartedly tell you to go fuck yourself with as much virility as you can muster.

you mean like how fat people are portrayed as lazy, balding men are treated as aging ad desperate and ugly, how writers cannot diffiate between “Autism” and “brain damage”, how men are always seen in the wrong in arguments and seen as being dumb, animalistic, lazy and wimpy whereas the women are treated as can do no wrong, wise, perfect people? because I do: But that;s the artist’s descision and they deserve to do what they want with their works: there is nothing wrong with that.

And now you can see why I didn’t go through and go in depth as to why this person is wrong: It’s blatant and obvious. But don’t take my word for it: see the train wreck for yourself.

[keikaku-sama]

Book of the Atlantic: Chapter 6

Rating: Some early chapters are rated T. Some later chapters are rated M. Reader discretion is advised. Side note: Sentences in Italics without quotation marks are thoughts. Sentences in “Italics” with quotation marks are characters on the other end of a phone call speaking. Sentences in “Bold and Italics” with quotation marks are characters saying things angrily, venomously, for emphasis, or the like.

And, sentences in “Italics and are in headline font” with quotation marks, are two characters speaking in unison. Sentences in “Bold, Italics, and are in headline font”, are three or more characters speaking in unison. Sentences in Bold and Italics without quotation marks is a character telepathically speaking to another character.

“The eternal flame in this breast, cannot be quenched by anyone.  

“We are-“

The two teenagers, and the two adults, then got into ridiculous poses, which made Yuki and Adrian burst into laughter internally, while Sebastian seemed to be completely ignoring the pain that came with putting all his weight on his bad leg.

“Phoenix!!”

Ciel blushed in embarrassment, as he glanced at the ghoul and the mortician, before glancing at Sebastian with concern.

All three of them held straight faces.

What kind of pose is this?! No one would believe them sane!!  

If we’ve got it wrong, all will be lost, Sebastian!

This must be the right pose, though. If it wasn’t he wouldn’t even bother with doing this.

The man in front of them widened his eyes, before striking the same pose.

“Phoenix!! Welcome to the Aurora Society.” The man then gave them fire bird pins, similar to his. “Here are your membership badges.”

After the man left, Sebastian walked over to Ciel to fasten the slate haired boy’s pin onto his lapel, without his cane.

The Earl blinked in confusion, while Adrian and Yuki raised an eyebrow. “You taking oxycodone?”

“Hm? Oh, yes, I am. Surprisingly, it helps.”

“Guh! Hee! Hee! Hee…”

At the laughter, the demon, ghoul, and Earl, looked to Adrian.

Who was glaring at someone behind them, as he pulled both Yuki and Ciel close to him.

“EEEE! HEE! HEE! HEE! I NEVER IMAGINED YOU’D DO SUCH A THING!”

—————————————————————————————————————-

The Earl and his butler’s eyes widened, while Yuki seemed to realize something.

So he was the one I saw hiding behind the pillar this morning.

The ghoul then paled, as she also realized what that meant.

Oh no.

The white haired girl hid behind Adrian, and hid her face in his leather jacket, as she whined silently.

Shh…..Don’t fret, dearest. I gave you my word that I’d protect you kids, and I intend to keep it.  

“And that one looked so funny while doing it! Hee! Hee! Hee!” The other reaper was referring to his twin, who was still glaring at him.

”W-Why are there two of you?!”

“Hee Hee…! I’m from another universe, you seeee~! I was dropped off in this universe after mine was destroyed~!”

Adrian moved a confused Ciel behind him, before speaking. “I figured as much. But why are you here on this ship?”

The other silver haired man grinned. “Hee Hee~! For work, you see! Hospitals are valued clients of mine!”

Yuki then chose that moment to peek out from behind her step-father. “May I ask how long you’ve been in this world?”

“Of course, dearieee~! I’ve been here for thirteen years!”

The ghoul raised an eyebrow. “And you’ve set up shop in that time?”

“I have~!”

“But Adrian is well known around London, not to mention that he’s well known around the world. How did you set up shop without us knowing?”

The renegade reaper in front of them chuckled, before speaking. “I did so without you knowing, because I told the city that I’m his long lost twin brother that he didn’t know about~! And my shop’s in Edinburgh, East Lothian, Scotland~! Hee Hee Hee~!”

Adrian had to grab hold of the white haired girl’s arm, to keep her from walking over to the other one, as her eyes sparkled in excitement. “Wow~! I bet Scotland’s even more beautiful in person, than in photos and movies! I can’t say that I’ve been there myself, though…”

Sebastian glared at Yuki, as she made idle chit chat with the other reaper, before looking to Ciel, to speak.

The Earl blinked, before nodding slightly, and peeking out, or trying to peek out from behind the reaper in leather.

The man just kept moving his arm in front of the boy’s face, so Ciel just popped his head out from between Adrian’s arm and torso.

The reaper’s eye twitched at that.

“We’re investigating illegal human experiments that are said to be conducted by this hospital. Would either of you two happen to know anything about the dead being resurrected?”

The question was directed at both reapers.

Adrian sighed exasperatedly, before responding. “I know of a few ways to resurrect the dead, but out of all of them, only one works. But, that way would not work here, and I would not recommend that you try it, unless you want to become a walking contradiction.”

“Walking……contradiction? What the bloody hell does that mean?”

“I’ll tell you later.”

The leather clad reaper’s twin seemed to be quite interested in the R-System to Yuki and Adrian, but Ciel and Sebastian didn’t care to notice, as the other began to speak. “Hee Hee…! I’m not as lenient as he, so if it’s information you want, I must have compensation for it!

“Yes, let me think…How ‘bout Lord Earl and the girl do that pose for me one more time, hmm?”

At that, Adrian growled lowly, and had to be stopped from punching the other by Yuki.

Ciel, however, only yelled at him angrily. “What do you take us fo-“

“Phoenix!!!”

The Earl was interrupted by a certain perverted moron, who greeted Sebastian and the reaper in a bad mood with that ridiculous pose.

“Do excuse me for adapting the pose to suit my style.”

Ciel and Yuki were hidden from the perverted moron’s view by Adrian, who turned around to greet the man with Michaelis.

“Isn’t that the Viscount of Druitt?!”

The disguised Earl whisper yelled this to the ghoul next to him, who was trying to make herself smaller than she already was to avoid the Viscount’s attention.

“He did have a physician’s liscense. Michaelis must’ve forgotten.”

The perverted moron clinked glasses with Adrian and Sebastian in greeting. “Oh, I say! Are you two newcomers here?”

The two teenagers behind the leather clad reaper internally sighed in relief, as the perverted moron hadn’t seemed to notice them.

Adrian smiled politely at the Viscount, while Sebastian’s eyebrow twitched. “We are indeed. We happened upon the newspaper article, you see…”

At that, the perverted moron elegantly placed a few fingers to his forehead, as if he had a headache. “Oh…Madam Samuel’s loose lips will cause us no end of grief. To think that she would reveal our secrets so readily!

“Though, it is a miracle that it hasn’t ended up on the internet…”

That was when Yuki’s phone went off, alerting the Viscount to her presence, as she fumbled with her phone before managing to turn it off.

However, the damage had already been done.

Viscount Druitt peeked around Adrian, to the silver haired man’s dismay, to see Yuki burying her face in her step-father’s back.

“Oh? And who have we here?”

The ghoul buried her face even further into Adrian’s back.

“She’s terribly shy around strangers.”

“I see. My dear flower, please let me see your face. I won’t hurt you, I swear.”

At being called ‘flower,’ the girl tensed, before doing as asked.

The Viscount was breathless when he saw her face.

Her face was framed by white hair, and she had a bit of baby fat on her cheeks, her lips plump, and light pink with gloss, while her eyes were big, and a cobalt blue with speckles of amber scattered throughout the iris.  

However, she was glaring at him.

He pouted at that, before his lips pulled into a grimace, as he saw her tattoos. “Dear flower, why did you mar your skin so-“

“Call me flower again, or say one more word about my tattoos and how ‘unladylike’ they are, and I will castrate you with a rusty, dull knife, then feed you to the sharks.”

The Viscount of Druitt yelped, and jumped away in fear at that, making Adrian chuckle.

“V-V-Very sorry, m-m-madame.”

The ghoul glared at him, before turning, and walking over to an empty table, and sitting down.

The renegade reaper sighed at her, before waving goodbye at the Viscount, then having Ciel and Sebastian follow him over to Yuki.

■————————————————————————————■

A black eyebrow raised, as a pale man growled in anger at his phone. “Shit…Why didn’t she pick up? Has something already happened?”  

The black haired man went silent, before scoffing. “Fuck it. I’m going to go check on her myself.”

The man was then engulfed in black and red, fire like shadows, before they vanished, showing that he had disappeared, with only a note lying where he had been sitting.

■————————————————————————————■

After they had sat down, with Adrian insisting that Ciel sit in the chair at the back of the table, and Sebastian sit in a chair sat in front of the Earl, the door closest to them opened.

Four men carrying a coffin walked in, followed by a brown haired man in a doctor’s uniform.  

Ciel raised an eyebrow. “Who’s that?”

Adrian hummed, gently rubbing circles in the back of Yuki’s hand, before answering. “That would be Rian Stoker, the founder of the Aurora Society.”

“So that’s…”

■————————————————————————————■

Black and red, fire like shadows roared to life outside, on the second class deck, near the barroom, before disappearing.

A pale, black haired man, with red eyes, snarled, as he followed the scent of his nephew to the barroom.

Meanwhile, a silver haired man watched silently, curious as to what the other would do.

Larten laughed at a joke Ronald cracked, before glancing to the door.  

He saw a tall man in red looking at him.

At that, the orange haired vampire stood up, and grabbed his coat.

“Hey, Larten. Where you going?”

“I have to go meet up with my sister. I promised I’d take her to the arcade again tonight.”

The women at the table, and the men, seemed sad to see the man go, while the blonde reaper nodded in understanding. “Ah. Right. Well, you go on then. Wouldn’t want to keep her waiting.”

Larten smiled at his friend, before leaving a few pounds for the bartender, then walked out of the barroom, only to be grabbed by the collar of his shirt.

■————————————————————————————■

Everyone in the room became quiet, as the founder was starting to speak.

“The eternal flame in this breast, cannot be quenched by anyone.

“We are-“

The brunette man then struck that ridiculous pose, making Yuki gain a small smile, as she was put in a good mood.

“Phoenix!!!”

■————————————————————————————■

“What the hell are you doing here?”

The orange haired vampire sighed at his uncle, who seemed to be paranoid, and jumping to conclusions.

Again.

“Adrian told me that I should have a bit of fun before everything goes to hell. He also said to leave and go find Egin and Lady Elizabeth, then take them with me to where he and Yuki are, once I see you.”

“You shouldn’t have listened to him. You should have stayed with your sister!”

“And what? Have him become anxious, and start being as paranoid as you?”

Alucard growled lowly at the new voice.

■————————————————————————————■

“Esteemed friends and colleagues!” Stoker bowed to the audience, before continuing.

“I thank you for attending the Aurora Society’s research presentation, ‘Absolute Salvation of Mankind through Medical Science,’ on this fine day.

“What is Absolute Salvation, you might ask? Well, it’s…

“Perfect health!!”

Rian then began to strike all sorts of ridiculous poses, making Yuki, Adrian, Ciel, and Sebastian, groan internally.

This is so stupid.

“A healthy body.

“Healthy teeth.

“A healthy mind residing in a healthy body.

“And healthy weather.

“Good health is a many-splendoured thing!”

A somber look then took over the man’s face. “However, there continues to exist a state of greatest, most profound unhealthiness that we are unable to conquer, try as we might.

“And what is that state?”

■————————————————————————————■

“Stay out of this, Ferid. It’s none of your business.”

The silver haired man-Ferid, glared at the vampire king. “None of my business? None of my business?! He may not be related to me by blood, but he is still my son! So, yes, I do think that it is indeed my business, Vlad!”

The No-Life King snarled at his brother-in-law. “He needs to be with his sister. Or do you not care about her anxiety, fear of ships, and large bodies of water either?!”

At that, the silver haired vampire flipped.

“You’re seriously asking me if I don’t care about my daughter and her phobias?! What the fuck, Vlad?! Of course I care about her! I’m just not flipping out like you are, because I know that Adrian will keep her safe!

“He gave you his word that he’d make sure she would make it out of this alive! He never goes back on his word! You know that! When you first met him, you asked him to protect Crowley for eternity, and he gave you his word that he would!

“He has continued to protect Crowley to this day, and the same can be said for Crowley’s children. Adrian told me what you said over the phone. I understand why you’re worried, but Adrian will be able to protect her just fine, if Larten doesn’t make it in time.”

Alucard’s eyes glowed red with anger, as he growled, before dropping Larten onto the deck. “I’m going to go find Yukino.”

Ferid blinked confusedly, as the vampire king let the venom slip out of his voice, seemingly not angry anymore. “……..Alright. You go on ahead. We’ll catch up with you later.”

The man in red grunted, before turning to leave. “Larten.”

“Yes, uncle?”

The black haired man stayed silent for a bit, making Ferid worry.

Before the vampire king turned his head to the side, to glare at his nephew with eyes still glowing red in anger.

“I regret turning you into one of us every damn day of my life.”

The silver haired man snarled at Alucard, as the taller man lowered himself into his own shadow, before it traveled up the side of the ship.

Ferid scoffed, before turning to his step-son.

Who was trembling, and staring wide eyed at the spot Alucard had been, looking to be on the brink of tears.

The silver haired vampire looked at Larten with concern, as he crouched down in front of him.

“Larten?”

He didn’t answer.

“I know that you’re not okay, but….Do you want to cry?”

“I don’t know.”

The ruby red eyed man gazed as the other sadly, as the orange haired man’s voice was cracking.

“Do you need to cry?”

“I dunno.”

A hiccup.

“You’re gonna cry.”

“Y-Yeah.”

The blood works started as Ferid pulled his step-son into a hug, the younger vampire’s sobs muffled, as he had buried his face in his step-father‘s shoulder.

The silver haired vampire rubbed Larten’s back soothingly, before running his hand through his hair.

“Shh…..”

“Papa….What did I do to make him angry at me?”

“You did nothing. He’s just a paranoid, mean, old coot who doesn’t know how to care for his nephews properly.”

The two stayed like that for bit, before Larten pulled his face out of the older vampire’s shoulder, with a determined look on his face, that surprised Ferid.

“Are you going to be okay now?”

“I’ll be fine. I’m going.”

The orange haired vampire stood up, and went to leave.

“Going where?”

Larten paused, then looked back with a smile. “I’m going to do as Adrian told me, and I’m going to prove uncle wrong.”

Ferid blinked at that, before quickly getting up, and running to follow his step-son.  

“Wait for me!”

■————————————————————————————■

Stoker placed his hand on the coffin, before continuing.

“It is death!

“And the wonderful, singular power that will save us from this calamity? That is…

“The medical science of the Aurora Society!”

The doctor then took his hand off the coffin, letting the men who brought it in open it.

Yuki immediately covered her nose, as the smell of the corpse was too much for her, making Ciel raise an eyebrow.

“Now I shall demonstrate to you the fruits of our research, the ‘Absolute Salvation of Mankind through Medical Science.’

“Here lies Margaret Connor, age seventeen. She lost her young life in an unfortunate accident.  

“Her death was truly tragic, the result of a catastrophe that never that never should have occurred.”

There was a couple in black standing next to the coffin, the woman crying, with the man comforting her.

“Her untimely end brought ill health not only upon her own heart, but also upon the hearts of her loved ones.

“I wish to absolutely save this young lady and her family!”

Despite seeing Yuki cover her nose, Ciel leaned over to her. “Is the corpse real?”

“Yeah. Been dead for at least two weeks.”

The men next to the coffin placed electrodes on the corpse’s chest, and forehead, before Rian raised his hand, to show off some sort of generator.

“Allow me to show you, everyone! The power of medicine!”

The brunette then pulled the lever on the generator, making electricity travel through the electrodes, to the corpse.

“Absolute Salvation!!”

■————————————————————————————■

“Oh!

“It’s nearly time.”

The women Ronald was with looked disappointed. “Hm? Where’re you goin’?”

The blonde reaper slid his coat on, before waving goodbye to the women. “I’ve got a little work to do.”

“Awww! Leavin’ so soon?” The brunette woman pouted, before smiling. “Then ‘ow ‘bout we meet again ‘ere t’morrow?”

Ronald smiled back at her. “Okay! If we’re both alive, that is.”

■————————————————————————————■

“Now rise from the ashes, my dear!

“Like a phoenix!!”

Adrian placed a hand on the gun holster on the back of his belt, glaring at the corpse, as it rose.

“Please, take a good look!

“Our medical science can overcome even death!”

The mourning woman-The corpse’s mother, then hugged the corpse. “Maggie! Oh, Maggie, my sweet child!! Thank you so much, doctor!!”

“This is ‘Absolute Salvation’!”

Ciel suddenly stood in shock, as he gaped. “What exactly is going on here?! Did a corpse really just come back to life?!”

The corpse’s maw then opened wider than any human could.

“As long as you are alive, your mothe-“ The woman then screamed, as the corpse bit into her neck.

“M-Maggie-?! What is the-Ow-“ The woman was then killed.

The audience screamed, and ran for their lives.

The corpse then got up out of the coffin, and headed for the nearest person.

Which, apparently, was Yuki.

The ghoul summoned her weapons, and was about to draw her shotgun, when-

[mrsamazingdreamer]

Just Roommates: Part 5

Plot- Jungkook as your roommate+College Adventures lol.

Characters- Y/N, Jungkook.

Word Count- 1.8k+

Warning- None, but like accidentally touching and stuff. lol.

Part 1, Part 2, Part 3  Part 4  

casual texting shit- part 1, part 2  

Are you all even ready?

(A/N- should i give them a leap and put them in 3rd year so i can spice up things a bit more, like add smut and stuff *wink wink*? please do suggest)

<3 much love who are still following this <3

-

Y/N’s POV

Man, this is so much fun. I am so happy that my ‘hot’ roommate actually took me here, and he was trying to spend time with me. I would seriously be ready to do this with someone like him on any given day. I couldn’t keep his face from coming into my mind.

Pretty odd as it seems, but he was acting strange suddenly. He didn’t make any eye contact with me, and just left… he was inside the tent, basically abandoning me, all alone, into the wilderness.

Strange, indeed.

What was even strange was that, what had gotten into me to suddenly agreeing to this plan.

‘About time, Y/N’, I whispered to myself. ‘I should probably go and sleep too. Long day ahead.’

I waked towards my own tent, to only discover that, we have only had bought, one sleeping bag. And that was with Jungkook.

Well, fuck.

I got inside my tent and zipped it. I removed my jacket and laid over it. I started wondering as to what shall happen next. I was tired and I haven’t spoken to anyone who was close to me, in the past two days.

‘I should probably text my mother,’ I thought.

I got my phone out and I discovered that it was dead. My phone’s battery was over and so was my life. Being an internet addict I was, couldn’t even fathom survival without my phone. HOLY FUCK IM SCREWED. I WAS IN A DESPERATE NEED OF INFORMING MY PARENTS THAT EVERYTHING WAS FINE! JEEZ, WHY ME?! OUT OF ALL DAYS, WHY TODAY?!?!?! FML.

Then it hit me.

I quickly got up and hesitantly walked over to Jungkook’s tent.

“Hey, Jungkook. Are you awake?” I asked from outside. I could tell, he got startled as he immediately opened up and peaked at me.

“Hey, yeah. What’s up?” he told with a little smile.

“Do you, by any chance, have a powerbank or something? My phone died.” I explained, tossing my phone.

“Oh- I don’t think so.” He said.

“Alright.” I awkwardly told and walked away like a meme.

“Hey! You can use mine if you want?” he exclaimed, which made me turn my head back at this handsome fucking hot piece of man.

“You sure? I mean, it’s not that of a big- “he cut me off.

“Y/N, I insist. Please, you should inform someone about this.” He genuinely told.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MY HEARTU JUST MELTED. FUCKKKK YOU ROOMMATE YOU’RE CUTE, HOT, SEXY AND NOW THIS?! WHAAAAT ARE YOU?!

I was trying my best to hold back the stupid smile that he caused every time he looked at me. but I just, couldn’t.

“Here.” He offered. I took the phone and stood there.

“What aren’t you coming in?” he asked me surprizing. I got shook.

Did he just ask me to get inside his tent? What?

“No, no, I’m fine.” I told.

“STFU Woman, its cold outside, come in.” he snapped as he pointed me to get in.

“Thanks.” I chuckled, uncomfortably.

I dialled my mom’s phone. “Hey mom, it’s me, Y/N.”

“Hi Y/N, how are you, child?” she was really happy to hear from me.

“Okay, so I’m outside and my phone is dead so I want you to not worry about me.” I quickly said.

“Oh, where are- “before she could finish, I told her bye and hung up. I looked over to Jungkook who had raised his eyebrows at me and gave me a smug look.

“Wow, you could talk to her actually. I still have my battery.” He said in a mocking tone.

“Yeah, but you know…” I said and hand over his phone.

“Aren’t you too formal with me?” he abruptly asked making me widen my eyes.

“Um, it’s like been 2 days since we met and I mean, I don’t know!” I hid my face in my palms which made him suppress a laugh.

“Gosh, you’re really weird you know.” I fist bumped my shoulder.

FUCKKKKK YOU HOTTIE JUST TOUCHED ME. AHHHHHH. AHHHHHHHHHHHHH. AH. GOSH HIS TOUCH IS ELECTRIC. AH. HELP. AHHHHHHHHHH.

“Haw! How can you just say that!? You’ve just met me.” I stick out my tongue teasing him.

“Well, I did spend the past couple of hours with you and you definitely don’t seem normal to me.” he mocked me back with a sarcastic tone.

“Well, you’re not too normal either.” I pouted playfully at him.

He just gave me his gorgeous smile and that eye smile of his which could actually melt anyone’s heart.

“Dude, seriously.” He said.

‘DUDE’ REALLY? DID YOU JUST, DUDE-ZONE ME ALREADY?

I wanted to say something but mouth seemed to have lost words. So I just shrugged it off.

There was a comfortable silence between us. It was rather numbing and calming in a way, unlike before. Sound of the crickets, the movements in the lake were audible, occasionally disturbed by the burning wood that was outside. This was getting strangely stable for me.

I heard him thump down on the sleeping bag and to my surprise, he grabbed my wrist and made me fall besides him.

DUDE YOU FUCKING MADE ME LAY DOWN?

“What even- “before I could finish he shushed me. “So, you’re my roommate and I don’t want things weird between us ever- “

What the hell do you even mean there hottie

“-Like, let’s start being casual around each other, like roommates… or more like, friends?” He turned around to meet my eyes which were already staring at him.

I nodded because that’s all I could process in that moment. It was the most beautiful moment in my life and in that moment nothing seemed more perfect. Not only was it initiation of a new friendship, but also a start of my own new life as an adult. I was free now. I wasn’t worried and that’s what mattered.

The thing I realised about jungkook was that he didn’t seem to be unnatural. He didn’t feel creepy to even have laid down with. He didn’t seem dangerous. It was rather, a safe feeling, a feeling of being home. I know it had only been a short while, but things were right. So right. I never thought I could get this right, but I did. I was happy.

“Aigo, I’m sleepy. “he stretched his arms making sure not to even have brushed with my body, even accidently.

“Yes you better.” I smiled and got up from there and as I was crawling towards the door, he called me out.

“Yah! Where are you going?” he asked me.

“Um, to my tent?” I said with a confused look.

“Oh please, do you even know, how bloody cold it is? And we don’t even have an extra sleeping bag.” He explained.

JEON JUNGKOOK, ARE YOU INVITING ME IN YOUR SLEEPING BAG? TO SLEEP? WITH YOU? LIKE, NEXT TO YOUR HOT SELF? LIKE, NEXT TO YOU- THE KOREAN GREEK GOD HIMSELF?!

PLEASE DON’T INVITE ME PLEASE NO NO NO.

I couldn’t process what he had said and in answer I could only tilt my head and hang my jaw low because I just couldn’t think of what to say.

He frowned at me majorly. “What are you waiting for? A snake to come, and eat you alive?”

I just blinked a few times and realised that he had indirectly asked me to get in the bag with him.

“So, like, I should sleep here then?” I asked, obviously.

“Duh?” he gave me the most disgusted look ever which seemed to scream ‘how dumb are you? who even got you graduated’ look.

Without saying a word, I crawled over to him and he made room for me to fit in. To my luck, this one was spacious enough to fit us both, like a burrito. Oh well.

“Wow okay.” I managed to breath out.

“You fine there.” He asked.

HOW COULD I POSSIBLEY BE FINE WITH FEELIGN YOURSELF SO CLOSE NEXT TO ME. I WAS WET AF. (FROM ALL THE SWEAT OBS or maybe not)

“Yeah I guess.” I giggled.

“Good.”

We just laid there staring at the wall of the tent for 12.5 minutes without exchanging any words or movements to avoid any further touching. and the there it was, my bad habit.

I was getting drowsy despite all the activities that had been going on in my heart and mind. I was knocked out.

Tired and asleep, literally next to the guy I met 2 days ago accidently who happened to live with you now.

JUNGKOOK’s POV

JIN HYUNG WHAT KIND OF IDEA WAS THIS? SHARE THE FUCKING SLEEPING BAG WITH HER? DO NOT LET HER ALONE? DO YOU REALIZE HOW MUCH I’M SUFFERING RIGHT NOW? NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF A MAN I SHOW HER, I AM… I AM NOT! WELL, I WAS REALLY ANXIOUS WITH HER BEING SO CLOSE TO ME. 

But despite all that, I was happy that I made this decision. I was happy that I got to talk with her, but I wasn’t happy for the fact that she was so close to me and breathing and having her chest go up and down and I just couldn’t help but notice her face. Even though things were barely visible, I could see her silhouette. The texture of her hair, the way it fell on her face, how she had her lips so moist, how her eye lashed curled like magic and how her little nose scrunched when she senses any sharp air. Gosh, she looked exclusive. Probably the first time ever that I had seen a girl up so close. I don’t want to lie, but damn, she looked so pretty.

I felt an unconscious smile form on my lips and I could feel a bit of adrenaline rush up my stomach. There was something about her, which didn’t make me uncomfortable anymore, enough to give me panic attacks as usual. She was different. I was sure. She had a very positive vibe to her. She was cool and certainly would make my perfect roommate.  

It was about 30 minutes that I had been awake after her. Just as I was about to close my eyes, I felt something. Heavy indeed. Near my thigh. The weight exponentially increased as another second passed. Now, it was on my torso ascending towards my clavicles.

NO NO NO NO NO NOOOO. HOLY SHIET. Y/N! I THOUGHT YOU WERE NICE WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO. SHE HAD THROWN HER THIGH OVER MINE DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO MY CROTCH. NO NO NO NO. AND HER HANDS ALMOST NEAR MY SENSITIVE NECK. FUCK MAN. FUCK FUCK FUCK. IM FUCKED. WE’RE FUCKED. I’M DOOMED.

Just as I was processing the situation, I felt her face bury inside the crook of my neck. I could feel her breathing next to my neck and it was bothering me more than anything in the world right now.

‘Jungkook, be strong.’ I reassured myself.  

-

Thanks if you made it til the end. i really hope you liked it <3 

feedback appreciated neg or pos <3