#agot slavery

[horizon-verizon]

If this was a normal fandom, Daenerys using what little power she has to defy her owner and his men and explicitly go against their political economy in a way perhaps no one ever has, much less a woman (even a khaleesi), would be seen as an objectively brave and compassionate moment. But because the entire ethos of this fanbase, in every nook and cranny, every niche and subgroup, is Daenerys hatred, then something that would be seen as kind and good if done by anyone else, is twisted into something monstrous.

Any other fandom wouldn’t think Daenerys deserved to have her child ripped from her womb just for trying to help a woman and naively believing the woman would’ve wanted to help her. Hell, if it was any other character from ASOIAF in that situation, people would’ve hated Mirri. And we know this because no one says that Lysa was justified in trying to kill Sansa despite the Tullys forcing Lysa to marry a pedophile, or Theon was justified in conquering Winterfell despite Ned sacking his city, enabling mass rapes of women in it, and taking him away from his mother. Hell, Daenerys haters even claim the children of slave masters in Astapor don’t deserve to be punished for their fathers’ sins.

Yes, you make excellent points of comparison, anon. Lysa Tully and the constant refrain of slavers (the class itself) being immune to accountability and justice that they'd inflict on other, less exploitative and abusive parties (or arguably so) if they had been them.

Must go to work soon, so response will be short. In some ways, this is a normal fandom bc fandoms are usually, to my knowledge rife with misogyny and racism. But this fandom is unique (to my knowledge and experience) in that the misogyny has gone to the extent to overtake many people very ability to even read text properly as to miss the actual and apparent conveyance of character scene. Precisely bc Dany is a prominent character who provides a POV, didn't die when she was "supposed to", and is a woman who fills up the position of exiled hero that traditionally men filled in fantasy fiction. And people have lost their minds ever since she survived but Ned didn't, so to say.

[jackoshadows]

It's funny that the same folks who make up nonsense about 'blood supremacy' and 'eugenics' to hate on the Targaryens are obsessed, like really, really obsessed with Sansa calling herself 'the blood of Winterfell' and use that as the reason for their favorite Jonsa crackship and for why Sansa will rule the North.

Having a certain 'blood' is apparently very important for shipping reasons and for why one feudal queen should rule over the peasants and serfs. But it's also Aryan ideology and 'blood supremacy' if other characters uphold their house in the same way.

It's funny that they bring real world ethics into this fictional fantasy world to argue blood supremacy to hate on certain characters and houses while all the time justifying in world Westerosi child abuse, classism, sexism, bullying and ableism as being right because it's the done thing.

In a fantasy world where certain groups of people do have magical powers based on who they are and their bloodline - Targaryens having prophetic dreams and Starks having warging powers - it's funny they are trying to argue that a girl fighting against slavery is the real evil because of her house and her blood and she has to die in violent and painful ways since in her case eugenics and blood purity applies and ALL TARGARYENS MUST BE EXTERMINATED. Except for Jon Snow who weirdly escapes the evilness despite having Targaryen blood because he has the SUPER GOOD SPECIALEST STARK BLOOD that dilutes the evil Targaryen blood. also he's THE BLOOD OF WINTERFELL!.

Here's the deal:

Arya being the only Stark child to have the Stark look IS IMPORTANT TO HER STORY, plays a part in her narrative and foreshadows her future arc.

[I love how stans get triggered when this is brought up in terms of Arya's character and her importance but use it generously to prop up their shitty crackship. Oh, Sansa imagines one of her kids would look like Arya? This means she has children with Jon ❤️❤️❤️]

The Direwolves are important. They are gifts from the Old Gods. Nymeria being a leader of a huge wolf pack is important.

You know, I don’t like to give things away.“ says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. ”But you don’t hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it.“ - GRRM

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”   - Bran, AGoT

Magical powers linked to blood are important in the fictional fantasy world of The Song of Ice and Fire. Especially when they are facing an otherworldy magical existential, apocalyptic threat from beyond the Wall. They need dragons, direwolves, prophetic dreams and magical swords to save the entire realm!

Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon Snow being wargs who are having wolf dreams and communicating with each other through their direwolves is important.

Arya being her father's child in every way that matters IS IMPORTANT TO HER STORY. Her father literally talks to her through weirwoods and gives her strength and courage. She has learned from him on what it takes to administer Winterfell. These are necessary character building subplots for characters to ultimately end up in leading positions.

Arya being her mother's child and proactively taking charge, being a leader and getting things done in terms of surviving in a man's world is ALSO IMPORTANT TO HER STORY.

Arya has a connection to the North through her father - the North is literally rising up in ADwD to save Ned's precious, valiant little girl - and has a connection to the Riverlands and her mother - the brotherhood without banners.

Characters having certain features because they belong to a house is an important and running theme in the books. It's not just house Targaryen. The Lannisters have a certain look - hence why Ned figures out who Joffrey's father is. The Starks have a certain look - this plays into Catelyn's hatred for Jon because he looks more Stark than Robb which is important in terms of being the future heir considering ALL the Starks who have ruled the North thus far have the Stark look. Hell, the Baratheons having a certain look is what leads Ned Stark to crack the secret of Lannister incest - 'The seed is strong'. Applying real world genetics and biology to a fantasy world is idiotic.

Jon Snow looking like a Stark is important in terms of his secret mystery parentage and who his mother is. His special bond with Arya gains significance considering she looks like Lyanna and that is Jon's mother. Lyanna having the Stark look is important. Sansa looking like Catelyn is the major component of her relationship with Petyr Baelish spanning over 5 books.

GRRM is not randomly writing characters looking a certain way for shits and giggles. These are important, narrative and foreshadowing plot points.

[agentrouka-blog]

Don’t know why but I decided to become a Mirri Maz Durr defender on Twitter where the most vocal Dany Stans are and boy they really don’t like being reminded a slave has a right to rebel against their master (which Mirri didn’t even do) even when that master is Dany

The only "crime" Mirri was guilty of was not giving Dany a comprehensive speech about how this ritual - which Dany was explicitly demanding she do - wasn't going to bring back Drogo 100%. Every single other thing is on Drogo, Dany or Jorah, and that entirely includes what happened to Rhaego.

Oh, and she didn't pretend Dany was a victim in a scenario where an entire city was brutalized and she "magnanimously" took some personal slaves to nominally protect them from rape until the time comes for them to be sold for cash money to fund her reconquest of Westeros.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." (AGOT, Daenerys VII)

Dany never addresses this beyond the little band-aid of pointing at random rape victims and going "my property now". They are still walking in the slave column on the way to Meereen, including Mirri. Does she even know how they are treated there?

Her words were a knife through Dany's breast. What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel? She had finally found a safe place, had finally tasted love and hope. She was finally going home. And now to lose it all … "No," she pleaded. "Save him, and I will free you, I swear it. You must know a way … some magic, some …" (AGOT, Daenerys VIII)

Ask Mirri whether she would like to find a safe place, taste hope, go home.

They need to pretend Mirri is guilty of anything, because otherwise they can't deny that Dany murdered an enslaved woman, her own slave, for no other reason than to exchange her life for the dragons that will replace the army and ships she originally meant to buy with captured free people sold into slavery.

But hey!! She is so anti slavery!

I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters. (ADWD, Daenerys I)

Nah, she'll just burn them alive if it's useful.

(Dany is a tragic character, and one day I will be able to discuss her choices more calmly and in context with her age and her trauma, but that's impossible as long as people pretend that those choices aren't absolutely violently horrific at times.)

[marwyn]

"We know that Dany is conscious of the weight that unhealthy relationships could leave" but DO we know that? And I don't mean this negatively, I don't think anyone in this series is "conscious" of that in that way. How would Dany define what's an "unhealthy relationship"? Certainly not using those words. I don't think Dany's personal trauma made her conscious of every relationship dynamic there is. She hasn't even fully unpacked that trauma like that. And she has not as of yet had any relationship that's not "unhealthy" so what would her model of one be? Criticism of how he writes the dothraki is as always valid, perhaps the most valid criticism of GRRM, I'm really just commenting on this specific bit of that ask because it seems like a completely unfair expectation to put on Dany, especially if it's because she herself is a victim.

Dany’s attitude toward relational power dynamics is definitely realistically conflicted due to her past experiences! In ACOK she bristles at the reminder that Illyrio sold her to Drogo in light of the good she was able to derive from their relationship (again, unsurprising given where she was coming from with Viserys) but accepts that it’s true, with some reservations:

“My brother and I were guests in Illyrio’s manse for half a year. If he meant to sell us, he could have done it then.” “He did sell you,” Ser Jorah said. “To Khal Drogo.” Dany flushed. He had the truth of it, but she did not like the sharpness with which he put it. “Illyrio protected us from the Usurper’s knives, and he believed in my brother’s cause.” “Illyrio believes in no cause but Illyrio. Gluttons are greedy men as a rule, and magisters are devious. Illyrio Mopatis is both. What do you truly know of him?” (ACOK, Daenerys III)

Of note is the fact that she had little trouble seeing through Illyrio and distrusting his motives at the beginning of AGOT but now seems to cling to the idea that he was at least somewhat altruistic in accordance with the positive spin she has been able to put on her experiences since. It’s only in ASOS as her campaign against slavery begins to takes shape that her anger over these experiences clearly begins to emerge:

“Better to come a beggar than a slaver,” Arstan said. “There speaks one who has been neither.” Dany’s nostrils flared. “Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I … my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?” Whitebeard bowed his head. “Your Grace, I did not mean to give offense.” “Only lies offend me, never honest counsel.” Dany patted Arstan’s spotted hand to reassure him. “I have a dragon’s temper, that’s all. You must not let it frighten you.” (ASOS, Daenerys II)

Another signficant example, of course, is “a dragon is no slave” (ASOS, Daenerys III). She continues to express similar sentiments in ADWD but is discouraged by the “eloquent” arguments given by those in favor of slavery compared to her raw emotion (ADWD, Daenerys III), and the daunting tasks of governance in Meereen lead to her reluctant agreement to marry yet another slave owner in order to make a compromise that ultimately cedes too much power to her new husband and the slaving class at large. This false peace is disrupted when the metamorphosis of Drogo’s namesake into a frightening monster results in his feral appearance at the fighting pit and necessitates Dany’s reclaiming him, leading to their first flight together, which I believe represents a symbolic reclamation of her personal and sexual autonomy and politics of liberation. And yet she may continue to have fond feelings toward Drogo for the rest of her life; these books depict many purposefully complex situations that are well-nigh impossible for the characters to navigate 100% neatly

[gendrie]

i do feel like the hardhome women and children in braavos is a thread thats left dangling for a reason.

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here. (Arya, ADWD)

as far as we know these wildlings are stranded in braavos? they don't speak the language. they are separated from their people and homeland. just like arya. ive considered before the possibility that arya brings them back north with her. which i realized has parallels to dany in agot

When she was done, Drogo was frowning. "This is the way of war. These women are our slaves now, to do with as we please." "It pleases me to hold them safe," Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. (Dany, AGOT)

dany intervenes with the taking of these women as slaves and brings them under her protection - to the best of her ability. which was only the beginning of dany's movement in essos to challenge the institution of slavery. but just as important is that this was where dany really starts to take control of her own destiny. in agot she goes from child to (young) woman and a leader in her own right. she becomes who she is meant to be: the mother of dragons, breaker of chains, ect.

i think becoming who she is meant to be will be arya's arc in twow.

[jedimaesteryoda]

You often miss how similar Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish are in some respects.

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." -AGOT, Catelyn IV Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." -ACOK, Daenerys I

They pursued beautiful highborn women far above their station who, and both being southron women who married northern lords. Petyr pined for Catelyn Tully, and fought a duel for her hand against her betrothed, Brandon Stark. Jorah won a tourney with the favor of Lynesse Hightower, he crowned her queen of love and beauty and managed to marry her when he asked for her hand.

Their stories have a romantic element to them with Petyr dueling for Cat's hand and Jorah winning a tourney with Lynesse's favor, but they end up being subverted with neither getting a happy ending. Petyr loses the duel and is nearly killed, and then SAed by Lysa and sent from Riverrun. Jorah's marriage didn't work out, exhausting his family's coffers to provide her the luxuries she was used to and after selling poachers to slavers, which forced him into exile. Catelyn ended up marrying Ned Stark and Lynesse ended up leaving Jorah to be a merchant-prince's concubine.

After that, they found themselves in service to women with Lysa Arryn having Jon Arryn raisie up Petyr and him later serving Queen Cersei while Jorah ending up serving Daenerys in exile. They also end up betraying the people they serve with Littlefinger having a hand in the War of Five Kings and being behind Joffrey's murder, killing Lysa and Jorah spying on Daenerys.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." -AGOT, Daenerys VII "I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me." -ADWD, Theon

Another thing they have in common is their attitude towards children and sex slavery. Petyr took the orphaned Jeyne Poole, forced her into sexual slavery at one of his brothels as shown by the whippings she endured for refusing and mentioning "she was trained." He then sent her to Ramsay Bolton of all people, likely not being ignorant of the things he had heard about him. Jorah had no qualms selling kids into sex slavery en masse, and when Dany tells him to stop Eroeh from being raped, he initially pushes back saying the Dothraki are claiming "their reward."

"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." "Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age." -ASOS, Sansa VII "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?" Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." -ACOK, Daenerys I

It fits their creepy attitude towards the opposite gender with their fixation on young girls after the loss of their previous interests of affection. Petyr fixates on Cat's daughter Sansa Stark who does bear a noted resemblance to her mother while Jorah fixates on Daenerys who he admits looks like his ex-wife.

For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." . . . "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." -ASOS, Sansa VII It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. "You . . . you should not have . . ." "I should not have waited so long," he finished for her. "I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well." His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen." -ASOS, Daenerys I

Their treatment towards these girls can be described as possessive and abusive. While posing to their girls as their protectors, they basically use it to enforce control over them. They force kisses on the girls, and when the girls make it clear they don't want them, simply dismiss them and continue to push. Petyr keeps Sansa in his custody under a false identity, effectively making him her guardian and keeping her completely dependent on him. Jorah tries to isolate Dany from other men in her life from Xaro to Barristan and Daario.

The main difference in Petyr is very vindictive, and works on the downfall of houses Stark and Tully over Cat's rejection and marriage while Jorah stays loyal to Daenerys and tries to seek her favor again. Neither man really takes accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Their fixations will ultimately prove to be their downfalls. Petyr underestimates the danger Sansa potentially poses to him as she is learning from him. Jorah in a desperate act, kidnaps Tyrion, and tries to go to Meereen to regain favor with Daenerys. He likely won't like the Ironborn suitor Victarion, and his actions will likely get himself killed.

[catofoldstones]

its my personal opinion that it will be arya that ends up killing dany and jon killing the king of the white walkers. a lot of reasons towards this idea is that d&d fliped around the ending that grrm showed them and the fact that arya has more plot and relevance with slavery and jon has more relevance with white walkers. also i believe jon will uploaded neds beliefs of sparing dany leaving it up to arya to actually killing her to protect her family and the north

The theory definitely has merit! Arya training with the Faceless Men and then assassinating Dxny when she sits the Iron Throne a-la-Maegor style is very compelling. Dxny apparently being killed by a blade of the same Iron Throne she had been running after her whole life is such smooth storytelling. It is something that we have foreshadowing and compelling evidence for as well. Not to mention Robert thinks of sending one of the Faceless Men as assassins to slay her in the first book. A Faceless Man ending the act to its true satisfaction is a well written storyline if I know one. Moreover, it would be such a rich conclusion to the story arc that Dxny has slowly started on since the end of AGoT and is more apparent since ASoS & ADWD.

However, I have been recently thinking that Dxny dying in a fire would also be interesting. It would form a parallel with the first book wherein she emerged from a fire, literally rebirthed with her dragons. She might trigger the wildfire in KL and die in it as a crazy twist to the adage “fire cannot hurt a Targaryen” which we all know is untrue. It also aligns well with her tragic antagonist status. She is someone who tries her best to solve a situation only to find herself in a sticky situation of the same making, or worse. So I believe that if she (accidentally, unknowingly, not knowing better, thinks is for the good) sets off the KL wildfire, that would be very in-character for her. Not only will the wildfire take down the Iron Throne with it (which will 100% not exist by the end of the series), it will also burn down Kings Landing, which also is foreshadowed to not survive the ending by way of getting burned down.

I don’t believe that Jon will leave it to Arya to kill Dxny in any capacity simply because he doesn’t have that authority over her. More than that, I don’t think Jon & Dxny’s arcs will intertwine as much as they did in the show or even enough that Jon will think it a personal duty to eradicate Dxny. Although, I do think that the show very obviously exchanged Arya and Jon and Bran’s endgame. It definitely makes more sense for Bran and Jon to be ones to defeat the Others - the Ice Threat- finally (though there is no Night King in the books, which is sad because I miss my frosty man :,( sigh anyway) and Arya to defeat the Fire Threat given her training and motivations. Idk what d&d were thinking, seriously.

But what can I say, some of my opinions are still crystalizing and shaping as I reread the books and interact with other meta.

[atopvisenyashill]

thoughts on dany as amethyst empress with slavery abolished worldwide?

you opened a door you can’t unlock here buddy!!!!! okay several things. this one is getting imo into a lot of very murky territory prediction wise simply bc we don’t have the information. my feelings on a lot of the cyclical aspects of the story change frequently. i think all the weewoo stuff is here on purpose but i think trying to figure out what it means CONFIDENTLY is impossible. EYE think we are essentially putting together the silmarillion through clues from lord of the rings here, right, which means there’s a lot of room for error. it’s also hard to say what was planned when - one thing about george he loves to change a plan and tell you to catch up. so….walk with me here.

to start, i think dany is the bloodstone emperor. the basics of the story are that the bloodstone emperor commits a blood betrayal of the amethyst empress, and this pattern repeats throughout history with different people playing different roles - an emperor is corrupted by a black stone, and commits a blood betrayal that helps usher in an age of darkness. as i’m sure you know, there’s a lot of conflation of azor ahai & several other heroes. i think it wasn’t literally the same person in many aspects - more like the pattern just repeated again somewhere else. think about the similarities between like, the five forts and the wall, despite the five forts supposedly predating the long night.

azor ahai is, imo, another retelling of this story, with azor ahai as the bloodstone emperor and nissa nissa as the amethyst empress. am i saying the empress was a willing victim or nissa unwilling? like all things, i think it’s likely somewhere in between those two things. i don’t inherently believe that the bse/aa/the stallion/etc are anti christ figures; i think there’s room for redemption in all of these stories. but it remains - dany is not nissa nissa, dany is azor ahai, and therefore dany is the emperor who commits the blood betrayal for the black stone. let me paste in the passages from agot-

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. “… don’t want to wake the dragon …” She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin. “… want to wake the dragon …” Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. “… wake the dragon …” The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. “… the dragon …” And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

she commits the blood betrayal by sacrificing rhaego to wake dragons from stone, to become the last dragon, the bloodstone emperor. as azor ahai sacrifices nissa nissa to make lightbringer (drogon, who awakes from a black stone egg), as the bloodstone emperor usurps the amethyst princess for the powers of the black stone which ushers in the long night.

now she IS associated with amethysts as well, that can’t be denied. i think it’s likely euron wants to sacrifice her, as HIS nissa nissa, his amethyst princess, to wake his own dragons, in his godkilling quest. i don’t think he will be successful - she is the one who makes the sacrifices, she is not the sacrifice. is her association with amethysts purely a setup for EURON to think she’s the amethyst empress? can she play both roles? is the point that she DOES play both roles? i mean, whose to say at this current point in time.

next point. i don’t necessarily think that the amethyst empress must be an inherently benevolent figure that would shepherd in a slave uprising worldwide. i think it’s true that the blood betrayal caused the first long night, and that aegon ii as the bloodstone emperor committing his own blood betrayal against rhaenyra causes the dying of the dragons. but we don’t know anything about the amethyst empress, and rhaenyra is not a wholly positive figure nor is aegon driven by ambition alone. these blood betrayals are tied to loss of magic but i think it’s more complicated than “and loss of magic is inherently bad.” is it catastrophic for the environment, and the people? often, yes, but that’s to do with whatever the black stone does. but is the cycle inherently bad? i would say the jury is still out on that.

am i implying jon is the amethyst empress? i mean…again, i think it’s too early to say for sure, but my gut says yes. my thing with jon is very much that prophecy chasers tend to get shit kicked in the end, and rhaegar was a prophecy chaser. i think there’s something interesting, similar to the succession issue with casterly rock re: tywin's line shenanigans, that jon isn’t the subject of any prophecy, even after rhaegar went through all that trouble. but there is also the possibility of “he’s playing a completely different role than rhaegar thought” that could work. and you also can’t quite put away the singer/bard stuff with jon, the fact that the reeds swear by ice and fire, and the “his is the song of ice and fire.” and i feel in general the starks are very moon coded (cut rant here), as is…nissa nissa, and therefore the amethyst empress. and any sort of legitimacy given to jon puts him ahead of dany. but i am not married to any of this (i mean i am to ‘dany is the bse & starks are moons’). jon does have a very azor ahai/bloodstone emperor nightmare where he kills ygritte & rob for winterfell - but. well let me put it here-

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. “Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me. Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … �� and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

note that in contrast to dany’s dream - when dany gets to the end of her nightmare, all she has left is rhaegar and the red door. but jon is jolted out of his nightmare by a mysterious gnarled hand. delicious to me. is it bloodraven, or bran, attempting to steer jon away from a fate as the bloodstone emperor (because he needs to fill another role?)? or do they need him to hold off on becoming the bloodstone emperor, until after he dies, and he's not dead yet? he mentions he has been abanded at the wall, kind of similar to the last hero, and once again you have all these questions - are these figures the same? who is playing what role?

and the same as we don’t know a lot about the amethyst empress…i’m always comparing dany to darth vader, and the bloodstone emperor can also be a vader esque character who does great evil and then attempts to atone. if the bloodstone emperor is also azor ahai, he stops the long night - or A long night. does he do this within the same “cycle”? or was it a second iteration of the pattern, a further cataclysmic event that damaged the world & its magic, and THEN the long night was ended? is it JUST a long night? because imo, whatever the bloodstone emperor causes is what destroys asshai - and that reads more like a magical nuclear bomb than a long night. again, whose to say. the point is, dany could play both roles, or jon & dany could both take on their own role, or dany is the emperor and someone else entirely is the empress (it was rhaego the whole time??). has the long night happened more than once? have the cotf helped ward it off before, with a stopgap measure rather than a permanent solution? or was it a different sort of evil that hunted the people of the great empire of the dawn? are azor ahai and the last hero iterations of the same story?

because….well i’ve seen a lot of “the last hero is also azor ahai” stuff but….the last hero is BRAN. and bran’s role is not the bloodstone emperor but rather the god-on-earth, the child of the lion of night and the maid made of light. so did the last hero perhaps establish their own pattern, break off the mold too far or was the last hero always playing a god-on-earth role?

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

all of this fits much better imo with what we know of brandon the builder rather than either emperor or empress roles. that the builder, like the god on earth, roamed around and established a great dynasty. like bran, the god on earth was carried everywhere. and this also nets in well with bran & the fisher stories - a godlike ruler with wisdom beyond years, who moves about the land rather than being tied to one place. a ruler who IS the land.

so. yes i am basically slotting bran into god-on-earth, jon into amethyst empress, and dany into bloodstone emperor. i think it fits with what we know of what cycles they’re repeating and honestly it potentially even fits the idea that jon doesn’t fulfill any prophecy at all - if bran is the god-on-earth, the last hero, and dany is the bloodstone emperor, azor ahai, which leaves jon as the amethyst princess, nissa nissa….i mean what do those do in the end, really? they die. just like jon. if the amethyst empress is in the end, only there to die…is she actually particularly prophecy incolved? or does she have a greater role that’s still hidden from us? i do think we’re likely to find more out in further chapters that deal with euron because HE doesn’t believe jon is the amethyst empress, he believes dany is.

how do i end all the woo woo stuff. my opinion on this changes constantly check back with me next week and whenever i get into the woowoo stuff, no one is allowed to hold any weird reads against me bc it is so vague.

next point. will dany abolish slavery worldwide? i mean, hard to say, although i do think her image and name will continue to be associated with it no matter how her story goes. certainly her death & memory can be used as a rallying cry to overthrow skavery throughout essos - but that’s likely to happen, again, no matter how she dies. she’s already being used as a symbol in volantis; i think esp with her association with rhollor and azor ahai and the bloodstone emperor that i've detailed (and the potential schism in the faith between meli’s believers and the essosi ones), her reputation in essos will be much more positive than in westeros. even if the absolute worst happens in the ghiscari bay, i think her image has reached escape velocity here - to the essosi, she will be remembered as a brutal ruler but one that tried to make things better, at the very least.

but if she lives, what will she do? well…if we’re talking “she abolishes slavery worldwide as twow and ados goes on” no i don’t think that’s happening on page. she’s getting back to meereen and she's not sticking around long, and it will fall into slavery again when she leaves two seconds later for westeros, and when she gets to westeros she’s being completely rejected there, AND THEN…life goes on. history keeps moving, regardless of the outcome. her image will remain positive in essos, and negative in westeros.

if she pulls a true nettles, and disappears forever, basically all of the above can still happen, and i think that's a sort of bittersweet ending - a legacy of light and dark both. if she lives, and dips out of westeros unseen, and goes back to essos and then doesn’t pull a true nettles but gets reinvolved in the politics there? or perhaps even is Allowed To Leave (by who? well [cut 10 paragraphs about possible endgame scenarios for dany]) and just goes straight back there and dedicates herself to truly abolishing slavery? i mean, we’re at the end of ados now babeeee i think it’s going to be left up in the air in that case. i think it’ll be hopeful maybe, and i would imagine in arya’s adventures that im sure he has written pieces of for fun whenever he gets angry at whatever chapter of twow he’s working on, we’d continue to get some information about dany being queen in the bay but i don’t think it’s likely she’s going to keep conquering (i imagine that would be part of whatever deal gets her back to essos - you don’t move, and we won’t panic). although then you have to factor in volantis and really all the free cities and we’re getting into the weeds here, the point is i think she’s going to have to Pick a place and stay there. the whole “queen of literally all of terros” thing no, i don’t think so - again, she’s not the god-on-earth, she’s the bloodstone emperor. and in the end, both the emperor and empress fall (just as in the dance) while the god-on-earth lives a long life and joins his people peacefully in the heavens.

tldr i think dany is the bloodstone emperor, not the amethyst empress, but that doesn’t mean she won’t help abolish slavery only it will be AFTER the series ends, and not during.

[horizon-verizon]

Setting aside that economies aren’t like CD’s and you can’t just exchange them overnight, how would Daenerys have abolished slavery and immediately “replaced the economy” ?

It took the United States decades of abolitionism and an entire civil war to end slavery; it took another 100 years to take on post Reconstruction racism. The consequences of slavery, Jim Crow, and discriminatory policies didn’t vanish overnight because the laws that sustained segregation were repealed, they created generational wealth gaps, entrenched segregation, and systemic barriers. Redlining wasn’t officially outlawed until the late 1960s, yet its impact still defines housing, education, and economic inequality. Pretending these lasting effects don’t exist is either ignorant or willfully blind.

From 1789 to 1871, France have experienced a succession of short-lived regimes and witnessed a tumultuous eight decades that saw the initial constitutional monarchy replaced by a republic in 1792, only for the republic to succumb to terror to see off internal and external enemies and lose all legitimacy in a mere seven years to be toppled by its most popular general, Napoleon Bonaparte. To sum things up, in 82 years, France went through three monarchies, two empires, and two republics, the French people witnessing the fall of seven different political regimes, with a eighth, the Third Republic, being in place since the fall of Napoleon III.

History does not know just one direction, but many setbacks and cyclical motions. Leadership often works the same way. Major successes and breakthroughs rarely happen overnight. Instead, they emerge from countless small actions — strategic decisions, cultural shifts, and unglamorous (sometimes even boring) persistence — that compound over time. It makes Daenerys’ struggle to change things for the better feel a lot more realistic.

Honestly, I've wondered and I don't know. I don't want to think that it could turn out to be disappointing, how it's handled, but....

[sherlokiness]

I also saw your poljon posts. I just cannot for the life of me see Jon falling in love with Dany knowing her ending or maybe Im just wearing my jonsa colored glasses?

Hi,anon. Thanks for the ask.

Yes, a Jon genuinely falling for a villain ending Daenerys doesn't make sense. It's not just jonsa glasses. There is no way GRRM would let Dany have no signs of tyranny. (There are already some but stans would say they're not indicative of future behavior and are just drivel from slavery apologists) Sansa and Arya clocked Dany for what she was- in the show so they never liked her.

If we are getting heroic Dany in the books then I guess there will be no problem since what's there not to love about the Dragon Queen? Go for it Jonny!!! So for Jon to sincerely fall in love with a Dark Dany, GRRM would have to turn him into AGoT Sansa who was in love with Joffrey. Jon would have to ignore Dany's cruel lapses bc he had some "nice" moments with her and even saved him like how Sansa ignored Joffrey's red flags every time she was with him. He'd have to be blinded by love for Dany. Maybe this is where all the one eye Jon clues amount to? I am banking on PolJon with Jon to willingly "blind" himself bc that's the only way he could look at Dany and work with her.

He was so gallant, she thought. The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders.

Imagine Jon monologue like this about Dany. The way she had rescued him from the NightKing. 🤢🤢🤢The problem with the Sansa=Jon and Dany=Joffrey is that Sansa was only 11 and Jon? What the fuck will be his excuse post resurrection?

"Dany will help the North." You mean self proclaimed Protector of the Realms doing the job she signed herself up for? Let's be real, Dany will not help the North for free. The "sacrifices" she has made was always in line with her ambition for the throne and if she gets some cookie points for it the better! This was the case when she "freed" the Unsullied. It's bad PR for Westeros and she couldn't afford them anyways! Free them! Oh good Drogon is back to her. Staying in Mereen for the slaves? She's using it as training ground for when she reaches Westeros (yk where her real people are) and ofc after she's weighed the benefits of staying.

Dany really does have compassion for the poor but when weighed against the IT? She always chose power. Like how she was sad by the suffering of the slaves but justified it as "the price of the Iron Throne."Once she doesn't get what she thinks is her "due" for helping, we will see the farce break. I mean in the show, she's only helping bc of Jon's dick. She called it Jon's war as if it's totally unrelated to her.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

TG stans and stansas rejoice in and ridicule women who get brutalized by their intimate partners, suffer traumatic miscarriages, lose almost all their children, and are murdered by a family member then turn around and cry about Helaena and Sansa's treatments in the fandom.

TG stans call Rhaenyra a fat whore, call her lazy for not riding a dragon into battle after a traumatic miscarriage (btw it takes 1-2 months to recover from a miscarriage), mock Visenya's death, and view the rest of Rhaenyra's children as subhuman. But when TB points out how Helaena and Aegon were both overweight in the book, talk about how Helaena went insane after B&C, and how she doesn't do much plot wise in either the book or show, they start bitching.

They complain about how people shouldn't target Helaena's weight, we should be sympathetic to her after her son is murdered, and she's really a victim so we should pity her not critique how little she does. Yeah, I agree, Helaena deserves sympathy for everything that happened to her, but so does Rhaenyra. But that doesn't matter to greenies, they just hate Rhaenyra so much that they'll act just as if not more awful than the misogynistic lords of Westeros.

Stansas will blame thirteen year old Dany for the crimes of her father, blame a bridal slave for the acts of her husband who bought her, call her a psychopath for not "properly" mourning her abusive brother who threatened to carve out her unborn baby, mock Rhaego's death, say she's a selfish person for freeing slaves, say she's a tyrant/horrible ruler for not perfectly dismantling a system built on millenia of slavery, mock her death, and theorize she'll turn into an mad tyrant based on nothing.

But if anyone criticized Sansa's portrayal on GoT, say she was being willfully ignorant in AGOT, talk about how she's persisting in her fantasies, critique how she acted in seasons 7/8, or theorize literally any ending for her character other than being qitn, they're sexist and hate all "feminine" women. They come up with the most horrible theories and write such hateful metas about Dany but then turn around and act like they and Sansa are the ones being victimized.

The shear hypocrisy of TG and Sansa stans is astounding, it's no wonder those parts of the fandom overlap so much. As long as they have their victims that they can project onto (Alicent/Helaena and Sansa), they're happy. But if anyone dares to criticize the characters or point out actual facts from the story, they turn around and bitch about how much we "hate their poor babies". It's just so frustrating seeing how much they hate and hate Rhaenyra and Daenerys yet reject anything that doesn't align with their ideas.

[marwyn]

Oooookay? You said that Illyrio had “brokered” Dany’s marriage to Khal Drogo and implied that he “made a lot of money in doing so.” But this arrangement between Viserys and Khal Drogo, facilitated by Illyrio, was not conducted for short-term financial gain but as part of a long-term geopolitical strategy to destabilize Westeros and eventually install Young Griff on the throne. Illyrio is a central figure in the Blackfyre restoration conspiracy, working in tandem with Varys. He invested substantial resources into the Targaryen (or pseudo-Targaryen) cause, or more accurately, into manufacturing one. He is financing long-term regime change, not flipping Dany for quick cash. As for the marriages, those are not equivalent situations. Daenerys was married as part of a formal political alliance between two sovereign kingdoms. As the sister of a king and wife to the ruling Prince of Dorne, she held a defined political role: Princess of Dorne and a key figure in the peaceful unification of the realm. The marriage was mutually negotiated between two ruling powers, and is remembered in the historical record as a cornerstone of peaceful integration. Dany's marriage to Drogo, on the other hand, was purely transactional. Viserys was an exiled and powerless claimant with no kingdom, court, army, or formal authority. Dany had no agency in the arrangement and was presented to Drogo without consent or protection. Her function was not political but instrumental. She was a commodity in a transaction intended to secure military support, reduced to an object in a power exchange. She was a slavewife by Dothraki standards, with no initial support system in his khalasar. The transaction failed to secure its intended outcome, and Viserys died without achieving anything. Dany emerged with power because she survived and adapted, not because of the marriage itself. So, one was a political alliance between equals, and the other was a desperate attempt that treated Dany as a commodity. Daenerys was positioned as a diplomatic actor within a structured political system rather than leaving her isolated or powerless in a foreign court with no real influence. Also, we don’t actually know much about Daenerys. What we have are historical fragments: her legacy, yes (the Water Gardens and the children, peace with Dorne), but not a developed narrative presence. There is no textual evidence that she was miserable in her marriage or spent years weeping after Daemon. The tragic romance appears less grounded in her lived experience than in the political mythology that surrounded Daemon. Associating him with a lost love helped elevate him beyond the status of a failed usurper, reframing him as the rightful Targaryen king, wronged not only in blood and crown, but in love as well. Here, Daenerys functions more as a narrative device used to legitimize Daemon’s rebellion by emotionalizing it. And until F&B ii provides more, she remains a silent figure in Daemon’s political arc.

Why’s this message so heated, I feel like Bloodraven is accusing me of spreading Blackfyre propaganda through the weirwood net.

I mentioned Illyrio’s brokerage because it’s one of several ways in which the text establishes a link between Dany’s marriage and slavery, a reading with which you clearly agree! The relevant passage:

It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

(AGOT, Daenerys II)

I also never stated that her marriage to Drogo is an exact equivalent to Daenerys’s marriage to Maron, just that they bear certain similarities however superficial; for instance I highly doubt it’s an accident that both Daeneryses in question were sisters to the king (Viserys’s claim is disputed to say the least, of course, but Dany insists on his being styled posthumously as Viserys III) who married them off in service of an endeavor to reclaim his kingdom and add Dorne to his kingdom, respectively (and the former is clearly unsuccessful while the latter is not).

I do think you’re overestimating the amount of agency possessed by Daeron’s sister, though. Or perhaps I have a dimmer view of Westerosi arranged marriages than you do. On the other hand I never said that she was miserable either, just that she’s clearly positioned as an archetypal dutiful wife. “Archetypal” being the operative word because I never presumed to know her thoughts on the matter, only the ways in which her (few) actions are presented.

[esther-dot]

The problem with Daenerys is that she sees issues from a purely black-and-white perspective. She stops Mirri from being raped and acts as if that’s the complete solution to her problem. Daenerys acts as her savior and insinuates that the rape victim she “saved” much be grateful. However, upon having her people murdered and ravaged, Mirri tries to get back at Drogo. But she doesn’t even really contribute to his death, as we know that Drogo died of his own infection that he refused to treat (he also refused to follow Mirri‘s advice on how to treat it). Sure, she apparently kills Daenerys’s infant, but I doubt that’s even true. Mirri explicitly announces that no one must enter the tent while she’s performing her magic. Yet Jorah and Daenerys enter anyway.

And even if this isn’t true, Daenerys herself believes that Jorah killed her son since he didn’t listen to Mirri and took her into the tent, yet it is Mirri she burns alive.

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. “The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah,” she told him. The knight made no reply. (AGOT, Daenerys IX)

You know, you're right that there's a distinct pattern of misapplying or refusing to accept guilt when it suits her. While her feelings may be alleviated by "saving" people,

"She will do no harm." Dany felt she could trust this old, plain-faced woman with her flat nose; she had saved her from the hard hands of her rapers, after all. (AGOT, Daenerys VII)

Perhaps Dany needs to reconsider what put them in that position in the first place, and whether it might actually have been Drogo and her choices, her war, that ruined their life,

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved." "Your life." (AGOT, Daenerys IX)

And I think the reader should be alarmed that while Dany thinks she's saved a life here, she promptly turns around and takes it:

"You will not hear me scream," Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing. "I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life. (AGOT, Daenerys X)

I suppose this is similar to her freeing people but the situation being so bad they’re desperate enough to want to sell themselves back into slavery and instead of that being a wake up call about the results of her choices, telling Dany she hasn’t done what she thinks she’s done, Dany decides to take a cut, to profit off of their suffering.

[ludcake]

been talking to some people feel like i should post some initial thoughts on my cringe oc au for asoiaf...... i was thinking the other day about how like. so many of the characters we have are emblematic of the generational rot and how they're in a position to stop it and end the cycle and stop looking back and make a better world and this is something that almost never happens!! there's a real chance for a better world thanks to these characters. and i was also thinking about how like... well, a big part of why they're in these situations, why they can do all that, why these changes would even happen, are pretty bad on a personal level.

and i think it's fascinating to think about how many fics and aus are like, wish fulfilment for happy endings (which i think is great! being comforted is good sometimes, just not always my thing) and how some of the natural consequences of these things could straight up just be. the rot continues. the house doesn't fall under its own weight it just keeps rotting and new beams keep being erected to keep it up and nobody ever leaves and they're all trapped. and how interesting that is! to me.

so i started thinking, well, what if the characters did get happy endings expected of their initial positions at the start of AGOT? and the key to it all is Jon Arryn surviving. Jon doesn't die, Ned doesn't become Hand, Dany isn't sold off, and then... it just keeps going. the rot continues. robert rules as robert and the baratheons stay in power and the feudal power structures get even more entrenched and when Young Griff comes back there's no mummer's dragon for him to fight and then it's two hundred years later and Westeros is stuck. They're all stuck, slavery still prevails in Astapor, Meereen, Yunkai and New Ghis, the Iron Throne is jockeyed between dynasties and houses based on thin claims, magic is thinner and thinner and all this rot is getting exported and entangled further and further and further. I have a whole thing about Westeros and Essos going through a 17th century style chain of craziness later but the core is.

for want of these people, of these children, of these characters we love. for theon to be lord of the iron islands, and robb lord of winterfell, and jon live free with the wildlings and brienne be forever remembered as a great knight and Shireen live a long and happy life and they're all trapped in the same system they started out because the only way out is through. you need to break the walls to get out of this house. there's no door.

you can send me asks about this but it's just like. such a fascinating thing about it. how would these characters we love fare if the walls never broke down. if the house wasn't burning. if they stayed trapped and tried to find happiness in this ideal feudal configuration that has been repeated over and over and over again.

and then there's my cringe ocs afterwards because i love jacobean styles and i wanted to write something in westeros that ran more along the lines of three musketeers than henry vi

[diamondperfumes]

The assertions that Dany will "succumb" to her family's allegedly "evil legacy" or the "taint" in her blood require pathologizing her for being an abuse victim borne of rape and incest, buying into bioessentialist "genetics is destiny" argument, and decontextualizing most of the passages from her book arc. This post, with a song juxtaposed with out-of-context quotes from Dany's chapters, is an excellent example.

"Every child knows the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness." The only "mad" Targaryens were Rhaegel, Aerion, Aerys II, and Viserys III. If you want to stretch it, you can include Baelor, though he was more pious and fanatic than mad. Maegor was cruel but lucid. Rhaegar was not mad, despite being Aerys II's son. And the narrative has distanced Dany from Aerys II several times, because one of ASOIAF's central theses is not "you are your father's child," but "you can overcome your father."

"She could not look behind her, must not look behind her" is not Dany "refusing to look at her family's history." This is taken from her fever dreams in AGOT Dany IX, and what she can't look back at is an icy breath that would cause her a "death worse than death, howling forever alone in the darkness." It's the first time Dany sees the Others in her dreams, and she is the only other character in AGOT to dream of them, the other character being Bran.

"I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice." This is Dany feeling guilty for crucifying 163 slavers. How is that a sign of madness or refusal to confront her family legacy? It's actually a sign that Dany has empathy even for the worst of humanity, even for her enemies. Also, crucifying slavers isn't evil. It's odd that the same fandom that calls Dany a slaver, slave trader, slave profiteer, and slavery enabler, also calls her a tyrant or mad for crucifying slavers. What is she supposed to do with slavers? What is the "proper" way to handle them?

The mother of monsters passage is more proof that Dany is introspective and self-critical. In children's media, shounen anime, and Marvel movies, a villain may unironically call themselves a monster, but in more complicated, nuanced, adult literature, characters who call themselves monsters usually aren't bad people. They're the self-deprecating, humble, and thoughtful characters who are reflecting on their flaws and mistakes. Again, if Dany is someone who refuses to think about the dark side of her family, she would not agonize over the consequences of using her power. Monstrosity is associated with being stigmatized, ostracized, and alienated by hegemonic forces in society, and those characters who identify with monstrosity often have something to reveal about the violence of the status quo and the normalization of oppression.

George is deconstructing the coin quote, not reinforcing it. Madness/greatness, ice/fire, east/west, north/south, sun/moon, pain/pleasure, love/hate, are all dichotomies in the novel that George sets out to show can unite in some way. As I said, most Targaryens were not "mad," and I find it odd that for a fandom as progressive as it frames itself to be, the ableist stereotyping of "foreign otherized race from the East is genetically predisposed toward madness" isn't something fans problematize more.

Dany longing for the house with the red door and wanting to rest, laugh, plant trees and see them grow, are also seen as signs of madness because of her statelessness and homelessness. If a teenage girl has been raped and abused, and is herself a product of rape and abuse, and comes from an exotic Eastern family, then apparently her longing for home is actually a bomb waiting to detonate inside her, because she's unfit to belong anywhere. It's shocking that this mentality is seen as media literate or subversive.

"Dragons plant no trees" has already been disproven by Dany's arc itself. Dany reclaims fire and blood by the end of ADWD because she realizes the peace in Meereen is false (which it is). Jon Snow goes from wanting to hire glassblowing apprentices to plant crops in greenhouses to grow food, to abandoning his vows and declaring war to save his sister, and then dies. Why is that not seen as a sign of "succumbing to madness?" The acts are narratively paralleled. Perhaps––and this may be crazy, but stay with me––the thesis of FeastDance is that you cannot grow, build, and heal a nation in soil watered with blood. No such rebuilding or regrowing is possible unless and until real change occurs, and for real change to happen, the corrupt old guard cannot stay alive.

Certainly TWOW will be a darker book for every viewpoint character, but it's interesting to see how a combination of pathologizing Dany for her gender, ethnicity, genes/biology, trauma, and stateless/rootless/homeless status as an exile/diaspora, with decontextualizing her chapters, quotes, and passages, and an overall misunderstanding of the themes of ASOIAF, to single Dany out as a "dark" character who won't be able to "outrun" her "negative family history."

[istumpysk]

Do you consider Dany as a slave and not a slave owner like her stans say? They say she was sold but so what? Most marriages in the world was a transaction. Who would call them slaves? That's a disservice to actual slaves like Irri and Jhiqui. Cat and Lysa were "sold" in exchange for their families' armies for the rebellion. Arya was sold to the Freys and Sansa was a broodmare for the Lannisters. They were never called slaves.

She is unquestionably a slave owner; there is no argument to be made against that.

Regarding the label of 'slave', I think it's fair to acknowledge that within a khalasar, a khal's wife holds a notably lower social standing than most noble-born girls in Westeros.

In some khalasars, Jhiqui said, the bloodriders shared the khal's wine, his tent, and even his wives, though never his horses. A man's mount was his own. - Daenerys IV, AGOT

However, Daenerys maintains a certain degree of privilege within her khalasar that no actual slave would ever possess.

I don't believe George has ever thought of her as a literal slave, but depicting her in that manner assists in conveying a specific message.

Cleon the self-styled Great was no better, however. The Butcher King had restored slavery to Astapor, the only change being that the former slaves were now the masters and the former masters were now the slaves. - Daenerys I, ADWD