#agot slavery

[horizon-verizon]

Why a lot of sansa fans are simping for Aemond and claiming him a tragic character? Isn't hypocrisy when they pretend that Daenerys is not a tragic character and never has been a victim in her life ? while saying Aemond is a poor sad boi and the victim of luke when he literally attacked rhaenyra's children? Isn't sheer hypocrisy that they will claim everything Daenerys does in the book is a sign of madness and darkness while excusing Aemond's crimes and making a joke of them , laughing at Luke death , house strong and the riverlands genocide. Aemond is a tragic character when goes in his way burning everything, Daenerys is mad tyrant and a slaver when she goes on her way freeing slaves

I answer the question HERE. But I don’t mention Dany, so I will say here that yes it is hypocrisy. 

And the hypocrisy points out/reveals the working misogyny against Dany, Rhaenyra, and Arya.

Because Aemond goes out and burns entire fields just to prove a point and rage, rapes a woman, kills an unarmed, fleeing child on dragonback, calls Rhaneyra misogynist terms several times....and Dany, who kills disgusting slavers who already nailed several children just to intimidate her, is the evil one?! Please.

[horizon-verizon]

It’s true that the ironborn live under a massive cognitive dissonance built from marking one sort of labor as essentially different and lesser than another, which allows them to continue the practices of reaving and sexual slavery. However...

“Ironborn” were people who were not thralls.

Thralls were people captured from reaving: plundering coastal and even inland locations of precious materials and people made into thralls and saltwives. And the thralls are the ones who did the all the mining, all the farming, most of the crafting.

Reaving was the most prestigious, respected, and sought after labor/role. Fishing is next. 

And thralls weren’t really considered to be ironborn (especially considering how “ironborn” could not be reaved themselves or lose their status/identity).

Two important quotes:

The endless stoop labor of farm and field was suitable only for thralls. The same was true for mining.

and about fishing being important:

The soil of the Iron Islands is thin and stony, more suitable for the grazing of goats than the raising of crops. The ironborn would surely suffer famine every winter but for the endless bounty of the sea and the fisherfolk who reap it.

In AWoIaF, pgs 176-178

Pics:

There is no “working class” in ASoIaF or in any real-life medieval period. Peasants were not working class, but proto-working class.

Marx, Marxists and socialists define the working class as those who have nothing to sell but their labor-power and skills.

Thralls did and could not sell their labor or use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations. There was no systematic room for negotiations. 

They are quite literally only a step above slaves since the ironborn had complete and utter authority over whether they lived or died, and maintained that system through force and religious perpetuation. Their status is similar to female war prizes like Alys Rivers, and in truth, all thralls were war prizes. It defines them.

While unlike “chattel” slaves in that they could own property, could have kids, their kids were not thralls, and married however they wanted (as long as it wasn’t a noble women or some freedman’s wife, etc), they still belonged to ironborn masters and their lives were in their hands directly.

While Yandel says “rights”, a right is a thing that is either granted by the government’s laws OR, like human rights, is an unchanging human guarantee of security and dignity. Thralls had no dignities except what their masters gave them. The real-life industrial working class, though at first unprotected by legal rights, still had protections because they were not seen as possessions brought from force. So it would be far accurate more accurate to say that those described by OP are enslaved laborers with more privileges. 

While the thralls are similar to the industrial working class and it’s safe to say that they are symbolically so, in reality the two are different.

I'm afraid the Ironborn economy confuses me. They spit on those who buy things, but they don't buy, how do they get anything? They can't raid that much to support (I think) a million and a half people, they don't produce much food (Theon says the farmers have the hardest life). What, exactly, keeps these islands going?

The way to understand the Ironborn economy is to understand that it functions under massive cognitive dissonance: the vast majority of the population actually works for a living, they're fishermen and farmers and miners and merchants and craftsmen, etc. The Iron Islands aren't the richest of the Seven Kingdoms - as I've said before, they're likely the poorest - but they have industry and trade and fishing and some farming.

The issue is that they have this lunatic ruling class that insists that Ironborn absolutely should not be doing any of the productive activity that actually makes the Iron Islands' economy function, and that ruling class has this whole ideology (the Old Way) that gets into the heads of even a bunch of the people who aren't part of the ruling class, such that you have a whole bunch of fishermen who show up to the Kingsmoot and chant along with the rest, because owning a fishing boat means you're a reaver at heart and certainly not some New Way member of the working class.

[jackoshadows]

It's funny that the same folks who make up nonsense about 'blood supremacy' and 'eugenics' to hate on the Targaryens are obsessed, like really, really obsessed with Sansa calling herself 'the blood of Winterfell' and use that as the reason for their favorite Jonsa crackship and for why Sansa will rule the North.

Having a certain 'blood' is apparently very important for shipping reasons and for why one feudal queen should rule over the peasants and serfs. But it's also Aryan ideology and 'blood supremacy' if other characters uphold their house in the same way.

It's funny that they bring real world ethics into this fictional fantasy world to argue blood supremacy to hate on certain characters and houses while all the time justifying in world Westerosi child abuse, classism, sexism, bullying and ableism as being right because it's the done thing.

In a fantasy world where certain groups of people do have magical powers based on who they are and their bloodline - Targaryens having prophetic dreams and Starks having warging powers - it's funny they are trying to argue that a girl fighting against slavery is the real evil because of her house and her blood and she has to die in violent and painful ways since in her case eugenics and blood purity applies and ALL TARGARYENS MUST BE EXTERMINATED. Except for Jon Snow who weirdly escapes the evilness despite having Targaryen blood because he has the SUPER GOOD SPECIALEST STARK BLOOD that dilutes the evil Targaryen blood. also he's THE BLOOD OF WINTERFELL!.

Here's the deal:

Arya being the only Stark child to have the Stark look IS IMPORTANT TO HER STORY, plays a part in her narrative and foreshadows her future arc.

[I love how stans get triggered when this is brought up in terms of Arya's character and her importance but use it generously to prop up their shitty crackship. Oh, Sansa imagines one of her kids would look like Arya? This means she has children with Jon ❤️❤️❤️]

The Direwolves are important. They are gifts from the Old Gods. Nymeria being a leader of a huge wolf pack is important.

You know, I don’t like to give things away.“ says Martin, a grin spreading across his face. ”But you don’t hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it.“ - GRRM

“You have five trueborn children,” Jon said. “Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.”   - Bran, AGoT

Magical powers linked to blood are important in the fictional fantasy world of The Song of Ice and Fire. Especially when they are facing an otherworldy magical existential, apocalyptic threat from beyond the Wall. They need dragons, direwolves, prophetic dreams and magical swords to save the entire realm!

Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon Snow being wargs who are having wolf dreams and communicating with each other through their direwolves is important.

Arya being her father's child in every way that matters IS IMPORTANT TO HER STORY. Her father literally talks to her through weirwoods and gives her strength and courage. She has learned from him on what it takes to administer Winterfell. These are necessary character building subplots for characters to ultimately end up in leading positions.

Arya being her mother's child and proactively taking charge, being a leader and getting things done in terms of surviving in a man's world is ALSO IMPORTANT TO HER STORY.

Arya has a connection to the North through her father - the North is literally rising up in ADwD to save Ned's precious, valiant little girl - and has a connection to the Riverlands and her mother - the brotherhood without banners.

Characters having certain features because they belong to a house is an important and running theme in the books. It's not just house Targaryen. The Lannisters have a certain look - hence why Ned figures out who Joffrey's father is. The Starks have a certain look - this plays into Catelyn's hatred for Jon because he looks more Stark than Robb which is important in terms of being the future heir considering ALL the Starks who have ruled the North thus far have the Stark look. Hell, the Baratheons having a certain look is what leads Ned Stark to crack the secret of Lannister incest - 'The seed is strong'. Applying real world genetics and biology to a fantasy world is idiotic.

Jon Snow looking like a Stark is important in terms of his secret mystery parentage and who his mother is. His special bond with Arya gains significance considering she looks like Lyanna and that is Jon's mother. Lyanna having the Stark look is important. Sansa looking like Catelyn is the major component of her relationship with Petyr Baelish spanning over 5 books.

GRRM is not randomly writing characters looking a certain way for shits and giggles. These are important, narrative and foreshadowing plot points.

[jedimaesteryoda]

You often miss how similar Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish are in some respects.

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." -AGOT, Catelyn IV Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." -ACOK, Daenerys I

They pursued beautiful highborn women far above their station who, and both being southron women who married northern lords. Petyr pined for Catelyn Tully, and fought a duel for her hand against her betrothed, Brandon Stark. Jorah won a tourney with the favor of Lynesse Hightower, he crowned her queen of love and beauty and managed to marry her when he asked for her hand.

Their stories have a romantic element to them with Petyr dueling for Cat's hand and Jorah winning a tourney with Lynesse's favor, but they end up being subverted with neither getting a happy ending. Petyr loses the duel and is nearly killed, and then SAed by Lysa and sent from Riverrun. Jorah's marriage didn't work out, exhausting his family's coffers to provide her the luxuries she was used to and after selling poachers to slavers, which forced him into exile. Catelyn ended up marrying Ned Stark and Lynesse ended up leaving Jorah to be a merchant-prince's concubine.

After that, they found themselves in service to women with Lysa Arryn having Jon Arryn raisie up Petyr and him later serving Queen Cersei while Jorah ending up serving Daenerys in exile. They also end up betraying the people they serve with Littlefinger having a hand in the War of Five Kings and being behind Joffrey's murder, killing Lysa and Jorah spying on Daenerys.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." -AGOT, Daenerys VII "I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me." -ADWD, Theon

Another thing they have in common is their attitude towards children and sex slavery. Petyr took the orphaned Jeyne Poole, forced her into sexual slavery at one of his brothels as shown by the whippings she endured for refusing and mentioning "she was trained." He then sent her to Ramsay Bolton of all people, likely not being ignorant of the things he had heard about him. Jorah had no qualms selling kids into sex slavery en masse, and when Dany tells him to stop Eroeh from being raped, he initially pushes back saying the Dothraki are claiming "their reward."

"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." "Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age." -ASOS, Sansa VII "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?" Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." -ACOK, Daenerys I

It fits their creepy attitude towards the opposite gender with their fixation on young girls after the loss of their previous interests of affection. Petyr fixates on Cat's daughter Sansa Stark who does bear a noted resemblance to her mother while Jorah fixates on Daenerys who he admits looks like his ex-wife.

For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." . . . "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." -ASOS, Sansa VII It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. "You . . . you should not have . . ." "I should not have waited so long," he finished for her. "I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well." His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen." -ASOS, Daenerys I

Their treatment towards these girls can be described as possessive and abusive. While posing to their girls as their protectors, they basically use it to enforce control over them. They force kisses on the girls, and when the girls make it clear they don't want them, simply dismiss them and continue to push. Petyr keeps Sansa in his custody under a false identity, effectively making him her guardian and keeping her completely dependent on him. Jorah tries to isolate Dany from other men in her life from Xaro to Barristan and Daario.

The main difference in Petyr is very vindictive, and works on the downfall of houses Stark and Tully over Cat's rejection and marriage while Jorah stays loyal to Daenerys and tries to seek her favor again. Neither man really takes accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Their fixations will ultimately prove to be their downfalls. Petyr underestimates the danger Sansa potentially poses to him as she is learning from him. Jorah in a desperate act, kidnaps Tyrion, and tries to go to Meereen to regain favor with Daenerys. He likely won't like the Ironborn suitor Victarion, and his actions will likely get himself killed.

[diamondperfumes]

Culture is a central aspect of Dany's arc. As such, it is a central feature of interpretations of her character, whether such interpretations are positive or negative.

The majority of ASOIAF fans dislike Dany's relationship with culture. What I find interesting, however, is that ASOIAF fans end up rejecting Dany's place in every culture she's part of.

Dany was born on Dragonstone, and immediately fled to Braavos when Rhaella died. When Viserys and Daenerys were forced to leave the Sealord's Manse, they traveled through the Free Cities: Lys, Myr, Tyrosh. Dany speaks Valyrian with a Tyroshi accent/dialect. Six months before the events of AGOT, Viserys and Daenerys land up in Illyrio's manse in Pentos.

Dany unequivocally adopts Dothraki culture as her own. She worships the Dothraki Horse God, speaks Dothraki fluently, wears the hrakkar when she wants to be comfortable, prefers her Dothraki riding leathers, painted vest, and medallion belt to the Meereenese tokar (and wears such an outfit when she wants to project strength), wears bells in her hair, considers Dothraki funeral rites for her own eventual death, loves horse riding, and sees herself as part of the Dothraki land. She is a Khaleesi of her own Khalasar, and also foreshadowed to be the Stallion who Mounts the World.

Dany spends time in Qarth, recovering from the perils of the Red Waste, figuring her leadership style out as a beggar queen, before she is kicked out of the city. There she meets Quaithe, who recurs as an ambiguous guide and mentor in her arc. She also receives various prophecies from the Undying, before they try to devour her. Xaro becomes an ally, and then enemy, and she learns important lessons from him. She gets her three-headed dragon crown, wrought in jade, ivory, and onyx, from the Pureborn of Qarth.

Dany conquers Slaver's Bay, moving from Astapor, to Yunkai, to Meereen, before ruling Meereen as Queen. She tries to free slaves and abolish slavery in each city. She wears the Meereenese tokar, speaks Ghiscari in court, marries Hizdahr zo Loraq in the Meereenese fashion, re-opens the fighting pits, trains her child hostages as cupbearers, and tries to be the "queen of rabbits." The bulk of the exploration of her leadership style and ideology is in Slaver's Bay.

Dany wants to reconquer Westeros on behalf of the Targaryen dynasty, and idealizes Westeros as a beautiful land. She names the habitat Drogon carves out for himself as Dragonstone.

Dany longs for the house with the red door and lemon tree. The two places she admits to being happiest in are Braavos (the house with the red door) and the Dothraki Sea. She once wanted to be a sailor. She has dreams of living a simple life with Daario. She also wants to be queen.

Dany speaks Ghiscari, High Valyrian, Tyroshi Valyrian (and likely other Valyrian dialects, like Pentoshi Valyrian), the Common Tongue, and Dothraki. She worships both the Faith of the Seven and the Dothraki Horse God. She has a connection to R'hllorism. She's lived in various Free Cities, the Dothraki Sea, Qarth, and Meereen. She's been through the Red Waste, Vaes Dothrak, Astapor, and Yunkai.

ASOIAF fans reject every one of Dany's relationships to these locations and cultures.

She is considered entitled, and imperialistic, for wanting to reconquer Westeros. Most theories of her dying center around the futility of conquest, the violence of House Targaryen, the selfishness of holding on to its name, the fact of her exile, and even that she is "foreign" to the land and culture. Many point out that she doesn't know "anything" about Westeros, that her father was Aerys II, that her family are "oppressive conquerors," and that her family lost the throne. Some will come up with convoluted reasons to claim that Jon Snow or Young Griff are ahead of her in the line of succession (so the throne belongs to a Targaryen, just not her). She won't "respect" Northern independence, Dornish independence, Ironborn independence, etc.

She is considered violent, tyrannical, and a threat to Westeros because of her connection to the Dothraki. She is accused of being an enabler of slavery and rape for being Drogo's wife, and then a she-Khal. The stallion who mounts the world prophecy is used as "proof" that she will go mad, or that she will burn Westeros to the ground in her conquest. She is accused of romanticizing Dothraki culture. She's blamed for what happens to the women of the Lhazarene village, particularly Mirri. Phrases such as "she is a white woman whose arc is propped up by the suffering of women of color/characters of color" are usually located here.

Dany is accused of not really caring about slavery because "she didn't do anything about it in Qarth," and stayed in Xaro's manse as a guest.

At the same time, Dany is seen as a white/Westerosi character "imposing her foreign/Western values" upon Essos. She is accused of "trying to civilize" Dothraki culture and "appropriating/mimicking" it. The phrase "white man's burden" is usually thrown around here. She's accused of raping Irri, her arc being built on Irri and Jhiqui's suffering, and the Dothraki being painted as "savage" for her own trauma. She is mocked as naive and ignorant for not appreciating the beauty of Qarth and wanting to return to Westeros in spite of being there, accused of being unfair toward Xaro in expecting an alliance from him, accused of being a cultural imperialist for burning down the House of the Undying.

Her time in Slaver's Bay receives the lion's share of the critique. She ruins its political economy. She destroys the region. She profits from slavery while claiming to be antislavery. She causes the freedmen to face poverty, violence, murder, rape, and suffering. She doesn't do enough against rapists and looters. She chooses fire and blood over the Meereenese peace, which is seen as a negative. She colonizes Slaver's Bay. She is like the US in Afghanistan or Iraq––invading for selfish reasons and then leaving, causing a rightwing insurgency to grow. She commits war crimes by torturing the wineseller's daughters and crucifying 163 Great Masters of Meereen, leaders of the city.

Yet the irony of this is captured in how people criticize her presence in Meereen: she is accused of ruining the city as an imperialist and is then criticized for wanting to sail away to conquer Westeros. So essentially, she has no place in Meereen, but she is also a bad person for wanting to leave it for Westeros.

As a Targaryen, and a Valyrian in general, her presence is seen as oppressive to both Westeros and Essos. Westeros because of the Targaryen conquest, Essos because of the legacy of the Valyrian Freehold. She's criticized for being "allies" with Illyrio Mopatis, a slaveowner, and people theorize that Braavos will hate her for being a Valyrian with dragons. Yet she is also criticized for not resettling in the house with the red door (presumably in Braavos, no?) and instead wanting to conquer Westeros. She is "too stupid" to appreciate how "beautiful and advanced" Essos is, and too focused on idealizing Westeros, but she is also too Westerosi/white/foreign to Essos.

In other words, for ASOIAF fans, Dany does not deserve to belong to any culture. Seeking a place in Westeros means that she is entitled, selfish, privileged, and oppressive. Being a Dothraki Khaleesi means that she simultaneously romanticizes slavery and is trying to civilize brown people. Conquering Slaver's Bay is an act of imperialism from a Western tyrant seeking resources, but leaving Slaver's Bay is an act of imperialism from a Western tyrant fleeing a war they started. Staying in Qarth means that she romanticizes slavery, but not fitting in there and idealizing Westeros means she is like an American tourist in the Global South, who cannot appreciate the real value of where she is in favor of a backwater Global North (Westeros). Being Valyrian means she is inherently responsible for slavery, and thus does not belong in Braavos or Westeros, but if she lives in Qarth, the Free Cities, or conquers Slaver's Bay to abolish slavery, she is trying to make Old Valyria rise again. She ruined Meereen and will burn Volantis, but she will also burn King's Landing and maybe even Sunspear.

If I ask ASOIAF fans what culture she belongs to, or which continent she should be part of, doubtless I will get multiple answers. But those answers will end up contradicting themselves. The reality is that these are not scattered rejections––the people rejecting Dany's place in each culture will, at different times, reject all the places Dany occupies in said cultures. Someone who on one day says Dany is a backwater white person who can't appreciate the beauty of Qarth will on the next day claim that she is reviving the violence of the Targaryen dynasty upon Dorne and the North by planning to invade Westeros. Someone who will wax lyrical about how she is a white woman whose arc is built on the suffering of women of color, and thus that she is a Nazi, or white supremacist, will on another day call her a rape enabling slave profiteer for being Drogo's wife and a Khaleesi.

Perhaps this is the natural conclusion of a character who is intentionally written as stateless and homeless. A nomad, an exile, a diasporic teenage girl, who longs for various "homes" and has different ideas of "home" in her head. But what does it say about ASOIAF fans that they reject her relationship with every culture? They don't want her in Essos or Westeros. We don't know what's west of Westeros, as we never hear the outcome of Elissa Farman's voyage. Doubtless the same fears people have of Dany living and thriving in Essos or Westeros would apply to any lands west of Westeros too. So where do they want her? There is an answer to this, which only a few ASOIAF fans are honest enough to admit: that Dany should have died in childbirth, or on the journey to Braavos, or on the Dothraki Sea, as Illyrio intended. Sadly, most ASOIAF fans are not brave enough to admit that their rejection of Dany's various cultural "places" is actually just a disguise for their dissatisfaction at her existence in the narrative.

(Whether or not that dissatisfaction is merited, whether or not it is motivated by genuine, "progressive" literary reasons, is another conversation. ASOIAF fans are indeed free to be upset about her presence as a character, or to theorize that she will be a villain because of her cultural statelessness. Right now, though, this post focuses on the question of "what culture could Dany be a part of without being a threat." The answer, for most ASOIAF fans, seems to be that Dany, child of storm, was born a threat to the entire world of ice and fire).

[thaliajoy-blog]

Rereading the Dany part of AGOT exclusively has led me to yet unforeseen places of discomfort like the whole Dany & Mirri Maz Duur story even surface level is very tragic & I'm obsessed by what is there what is underneath the surface and what could be in that dynamic (maybe I'll get into it another day) but the tenth Dany pov chapter in the novel is harrowing before the pyre starts because you see the contrast between how Mirri and Drogo are treated and it's distressing. Mirri is tied to a the pyre and whiped so she stops talking. Drogo is washed and clothed lovingly by Daenerys, she even speaks to him, apologizes to him, feels fondly about him, tries to give him a real king's funeral. But it makes sense, tragic sense. Mirri put Dany in an incredibly miserable & and vulnerable place. She murders Drogo & Rhaego. She is more than Dany's ennemy but Dany is not in a position that would make her want to forgive those actions, even based Mirri's trauma that Dany knows all too well about. So it's this fucked up thing where the birth of the dragon is preceded by an hommage by Dany to a man who is very obviously monstrous in GRRM's writing - Mirri murdered a child out of vengeance, but Drogo lead the killing, traumatizing & enslavement of many more children simply because it was in his power. And Dany loves him (and even names a dragon after her - I'm sorry Drogon there's that aside from the fact that your name is pretty stupid my sweet baby), a frightened love born out of the need to not just die from her awful situation as the teenage bride of a warlord. I'm thinking about how like Irri & Jhiqui still see themselves as slaves despite everything Dany does to delegitimize slavery ; in her continued fondness towards Drogo Dany kind of refuses to see her chains and her past victimization.

And it all comes back to Mirri, this monstrous victim, this wise demon, the maegi, the magic teacher, the one who cannot be forgiven. Tied to the pyre. Unwilling witness to Dany's marriage with the fire. This benefits us all to wonder & mourn and ponder about how complex & mindfucked GRRM made this situation (and I kind of love it as it is) rather than to designate one victim & one abuser and rant about how the fandom at large doesn't realize how really innocent one is and how really evil the other is.

Surge of thought on mirri lately brought to you by my obsession with Epic the Musical and how the Horse & the Infant, Just a Man and Ruthlessness kinda fit her I think.

[catofoldstones]

its my personal opinion that it will be arya that ends up killing dany and jon killing the king of the white walkers. a lot of reasons towards this idea is that d&d fliped around the ending that grrm showed them and the fact that arya has more plot and relevance with slavery and jon has more relevance with white walkers. also i believe jon will uploaded neds beliefs of sparing dany leaving it up to arya to actually killing her to protect her family and the north

The theory definitely has merit! Arya training with the Faceless Men and then assassinating Dxny when she sits the Iron Throne a-la-Maegor style is very compelling. Dxny apparently being killed by a blade of the same Iron Throne she had been running after her whole life is such smooth storytelling. It is something that we have foreshadowing and compelling evidence for as well. Not to mention Robert thinks of sending one of the Faceless Men as assassins to slay her in the first book. A Faceless Man ending the act to its true satisfaction is a well written storyline if I know one. Moreover, it would be such a rich conclusion to the story arc that Dxny has slowly started on since the end of AGoT and is more apparent since ASoS & ADWD.

However, I have been recently thinking that Dxny dying in a fire would also be interesting. It would form a parallel with the first book wherein she emerged from a fire, literally rebirthed with her dragons. She might trigger the wildfire in KL and die in it as a crazy twist to the adage “fire cannot hurt a Targaryen” which we all know is untrue. It also aligns well with her tragic antagonist status. She is someone who tries her best to solve a situation only to find herself in a sticky situation of the same making, or worse. So I believe that if she (accidentally, unknowingly, not knowing better, thinks is for the good) sets off the KL wildfire, that would be very in-character for her. Not only will the wildfire take down the Iron Throne with it (which will 100% not exist by the end of the series), it will also burn down Kings Landing, which also is foreshadowed to not survive the ending by way of getting burned down.

I don’t believe that Jon will leave it to Arya to kill Dxny in any capacity simply because he doesn��t have that authority over her. More than that, I don’t think Jon & Dxny’s arcs will intertwine as much as they did in the show or even enough that Jon will think it a personal duty to eradicate Dxny. Although, I do think that the show very obviously exchanged Arya and Jon and Bran’s endgame. It definitely makes more sense for Bran and Jon to be ones to defeat the Others - the Ice Threat- finally (though there is no Night King in the books, which is sad because I miss my frosty man :,( sigh anyway) and Arya to defeat the Fire Threat given her training and motivations. Idk what d&d were thinking, seriously.

But what can I say, some of my opinions are still crystalizing and shaping as I reread the books and interact with other meta.

[rainhadaenerys]

Madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin

I wrote about this before, and I made an edit about this as well, but I wanted to write a separate post just for this topic because I think people really don't understand what "madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin" means. I see many people taking at face value that half of the Targaryens are mad and that Targaryens are ticking time bombs, and I also see other people criticizing GRRM for including the madness theme for the Targaryens, criticizing him for supposedly adding genetic determinism and stigmatizing mental illness. But I think both are missing the point.

The madness vs greatness theme is not about half of the Targaryens being mad or great (this isn't even accurate with what we're shown in the books, as very few Targaryens were mad). The madness and greatness theme wasn't introduced just to add some cool mythos to House Targaryen. The madness vs greatness theme is a commentary on what it takes to be great: madness. And it's a theme pertaining to Dany specifically.

The theme was introduced explicitly for the first time in a Dany's chapter, as something that is said TO Dany, right after she liberated three slave cities:

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." - Daenerys VI ASOS

In fact, this is the ONLY time in all the books in which the Targaryens are stated to be mad or great (sure, there are times where the books talk about the Mad King, or say that this or that Targaryen was mad, but this is the only moment in the books where the coin toss and the theme of madness vs greatness are explicitly mentioned). It's not something that is brought up several times or given much emphasis, it's something that appears only this time, and is only said to Dany.

And why is this concept introduced only to Dany, and at this moment? Because it's meant to be a thematic reflection on what she just did. Because what she did was MAD. To think that you have the power to defy an institution as ingrained as slavery, to think you have the power to make such a huge change in the world, and to actually attempt it, it's something that most people would consider madness. Because it's seen as an impossible thing, it's seen as crazy, it's seen as suicide. But that's exactly what greatness is: to do things that most people would consider madness.

And this theme doesn't even start in ASOS, it starts back in AGOT. The only reason Dany is even in a position to attempt to end slavery, is because she did a mad thing in the first place: walk into a pyre to hatch her dragons. And the narrative points this out several times:

"No. He cannot have my son." She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon's eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.

Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, "Ser Jorah, light the brazier."

[...]

When the coals were afire, Dany sent Ser Jorah from her. She had to be alone to do what she must do. This is madness, she told herself as she lifted the black-and-scarlet egg from the velvet. It will only crack and burn, and it's so beautiful, Ser Jorah will call me a fool if I ruin it, and yet, and yet …

Cradling the egg with both hands, she carried it to the fire and pushed it down amongst the burning coals. The black scales seemed to glow as they drank the heat. Flames licked against the stone with small red tongues. Dany placed the other two eggs beside the black one in the fire. As she stepped back from the brazier, the breath trembled in her throat. - Daenerys VI AGOT

~

She could feel the eyes of the khalasar on her as she entered her tent. The Dothraki were muttering and giving her strange sideways looks from the corners of their dark almond eyes. They thought her mad, Dany realized. Perhaps she was. She would know soon enough. If I look back I am lost. - Daenerys X AGOT

~

As she climbed down off the pyre, she noticed Mirri Maz Duur watching her. "You are mad," the godswife said hoarsely.

"Is it so far from madness to wisdom?" Dany asked. - Daenerys V AGOT

When Dany says she is determined to conquer Westeros, even though it seems impossible for someone who has nothing, she is called mad:

"I mean to sail to Westeros, and drink the wine of vengeance from the skull of the Usurper." She scratched Rhaegal under one eye, and his jade-green wings unfolded for a moment, stirring the still air in the palanquin.

A single perfect tear ran down the cheek of Xaro Xhoan Daxos. "Will nothing turn you from this madness?"

"Nothing," she said, wishing she was as certain as she sounded. - Daenerys III ACOK

Later, when Dany ends slavery, people call her mad for it, for daring to challenge an institution that is seen as the right order or things:

"I have a gift for you as well." She slammed the chest shut. "Three days. On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. All of them. Every man, woman, and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters' possessions, as payment for their years of servitude. When all the slaves have departed, you will open your gates and allow my Unsullied to enter and search your city, to make certain none remain in bondage. If you do this, Yunkai will not be burned or plundered, and none of your people shall be molested. The Wise Masters will have the peace they desire, and will have proved themselves wise indeed. What say you?"

"I say, you are mad." - Daenerys IV ASOS

~

Xaro caught it in the air and took a bite. "Whence came this madness? Should I count myself fortunate that you did not free my own slaves when you were my guest in Qarth?" - Daenerys III ADWD

And we also see people looking at Dany as if she is mad when she approaches the sick Astapori, because this is something people consider to be very dangerous:

By the time Aggo returned with Grey Worm and fifty of the Unsullied loping behind his horse, Dany had shamed all of them into helping her. Symon Stripeback and his men were pulling the living from the dead and stacking up the corpses, while Jhogo and Rakharo and their Dothraki helped those who could still walk toward the shore to bathe and wash their clothes. Aggo stared at them as if they had all gone mad, but Grey Worm knelt beside the queen and said, "This one would be of help." - Daenerys VI ADWD

That's what the madness vs greatness theme is about. It's not about how half of the Targaryens are great and half are crazy. It's about how to be great you have to be mad (not in the clinical sense, like the ASOIAF fandom thinks, but in the sense that you have to do things most people would consider mad). That's the whole point of the theme and it's why it’s been applied only to Dany's character so far: she is an extraordinary person, someone who would DARE to do something that most people would consider impossible and mad. And even GRRM points this out in his interview:

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. (source)

Finally, I just want to mention that Aegon the Conqueror, who is considered to be the greatest Targaryen for conquering Westeros, was also called mad for this:

“A bold plan,” Grand Maester Orwyle said cautiously, when he heard it. Mushroom prefers “madness,” but adds, “they called Aegon the Dragon mad when he spoke of conquering all Westeros.” - Fire and Blood

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

TG stans and stansas rejoice in and ridicule women who get brutalized by their intimate partners, suffer traumatic miscarriages, lose almost all their children, and are murdered by a family member then turn around and cry about Helaena and Sansa's treatments in the fandom.

TG stans call Rhaenyra a fat whore, call her lazy for not riding a dragon into battle after a traumatic miscarriage (btw it takes 1-2 months to recover from a miscarriage), mock Visenya's death, and view the rest of Rhaenyra's children as subhuman. But when TB points out how Helaena and Aegon were both overweight in the book, talk about how Helaena went insane after B&C, and how she doesn't do much plot wise in either the book or show, they start bitching.

They complain about how people shouldn't target Helaena's weight, we should be sympathetic to her after her son is murdered, and she's really a victim so we should pity her not critique how little she does. Yeah, I agree, Helaena deserves sympathy for everything that happened to her, but so does Rhaenyra. But that doesn't matter to greenies, they just hate Rhaenyra so much that they'll act just as if not more awful than the misogynistic lords of Westeros.

Stansas will blame thirteen year old Dany for the crimes of her father, blame a bridal slave for the acts of her husband who bought her, call her a psychopath for not "properly" mourning her abusive brother who threatened to carve out her unborn baby, mock Rhaego's death, say she's a selfish person for freeing slaves, say she's a tyrant/horrible ruler for not perfectly dismantling a system built on millenia of slavery, mock her death, and theorize she'll turn into an mad tyrant based on nothing.

But if anyone criticized Sansa's portrayal on GoT, say she was being willfully ignorant in AGOT, talk about how she's persisting in her fantasies, critique how she acted in seasons 7/8, or theorize literally any ending for her character other than being qitn, they're sexist and hate all "feminine" women. They come up with the most horrible theories and write such hateful metas about Dany but then turn around and act like they and Sansa are the ones being victimized.

The shear hypocrisy of TG and Sansa stans is astounding, it's no wonder those parts of the fandom overlap so much. As long as they have their victims that they can project onto (Alicent/Helaena and Sansa), they're happy. But if anyone dares to criticize the characters or point out actual facts from the story, they turn around and bitch about how much we "hate their poor babies". It's just so frustrating seeing how much they hate and hate Rhaenyra and Daenerys yet reject anything that doesn't align with their ideas.

[horizon-verizon]

Calling Daenerys a “colonizer” or an “imperialist” is actually genuinely insane because both her ancestors and her personally are culturally Essosi, and Valyria was itself a big factor in why slavery exists in Essos at the scale it does at all. While Slavers Bay was part of Old Ghis thousands of years ago, it spent an equally sizable and influencial part of its history being part of Valyria, to the point where several of the masters we encountered spoke Valyrian as their first language. She’s not an outsider, and there is no cultural misunderstanding. Outside of the abhorrent practice of slavery, she is attempting to fit in culturally, right down to wearing a tokar.

Some people already explained how it’s not allegorically operation Iraqi freedom from an authorial standpoint, but also, just from a purely political standpoint, Slaver’s Bay is a massive imperialist force itself. It’s not an unstable developing region, and Daenerys is not an agent of a powerful foreign empire attempting to destabilize it for the enrichment and strengthening of that empire. She is a singular individual and former bridal slave being followed by a truly stateless group of former enslaved people from hundreds of different places who herself has literally nothing to gain by staying there. Any allegory to US intervention in the Global South fundamentally falls apart when you think about it for three seconds, because the Slaver’s Bay itself is more akin to the US than it is to any nation in the Global South. (Which is also why it has so many powerful allies in other slavery-practicing parts of Essos trying to get her gone.) It’s a powerful imperialist machine. It also falls apart because it requires to deliberately misunderstand why the US has the intervention policies it does (hint, it’s not actually to spread freedom and democracy. It’s to steal resources.) There are no resources Daenerys needs in Meereen, and she actually is interested in and working towards the longterm stability and improvement of the lives of the people there, which is why she didn’t just fuck off to Westeros (or at least Pentos until her dragons grew) after Astapor.

And her haters keep regurgitating the “she just killed 163 random slavers and didn’t find out who ackshulllyyyy was responsible” talking point, but contrary to the show, there was no poor sad little Hizdar’s daddy who was really really so sad about the 163 murdered enslaved children. Because that’s not how anything works. Killing 163 children to intimidate Daenerys was not something that a few bad eggs got together and did by themselves, it was an official act of the state. The state in Meereen is collectively run by the masters, and organizing that kind of deliberate, calculated horrific action, from planning to execution, is the collective responsibility of all of the officials in the state. Every single one of them was as guilty as the next and the only problem there was symbolically only killing 163 of them instead of the all of them.

just from a purely political standpoint, Slaver’s Bay is a massive imperialist force itself. It’s not an unstable developing region, and Daenerys is not an agent of a powerful foreign empire attempting to destabilize it for the enrichment and strengthening of that empire...Any allegory to US intervention in the Global South fundamentally falls apart when you think about it for three seconds, because the Slaver’s Bay itself is more akin to the US than it is to any nation in the Global South. (Which is also why it has so many powerful allies in other slavery-practicing parts of Essos trying to get her gone.) It’s a powerful imperialist machine. It also falls apart because it requires to deliberately misunderstand why the US has the intervention policies it does (hint, it’s not actually to spread freedom and democracy. It’s to steal resources.)

Absolutely, but they'll almost never admit to that (unless it's like that blonde whitey on TikTok who blase said she'd be fine with Southern states integrating slavery) part of U.S. liberalism is disguised conservatism bc white supremacy.

[esther-dot]

The problem with Daenerys is that she sees issues from a purely black-and-white perspective. She stops Mirri from being raped and acts as if that’s the complete solution to her problem. Daenerys acts as her savior and insinuates that the rape victim she “saved” much be grateful. However, upon having her people murdered and ravaged, Mirri tries to get back at Drogo. But she doesn’t even really contribute to his death, as we know that Drogo died of his own infection that he refused to treat (he also refused to follow Mirri‘s advice on how to treat it). Sure, she apparently kills Daenerys’s infant, but I doubt that’s even true. Mirri explicitly announces that no one must enter the tent while she’s performing her magic. Yet Jorah and Daenerys enter anyway.

And even if this isn’t true, Daenerys herself believes that Jorah killed her son since he didn’t listen to Mirri and took her into the tent, yet it is Mirri she burns alive.

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. “The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah,” she told him. The knight made no reply. (AGOT, Daenerys IX)

You know, you're right that there's a distinct pattern of misapplying or refusing to accept guilt when it suits her. While her feelings may be alleviated by "saving" people,

"She will do no harm." Dany felt she could trust this old, plain-faced woman with her flat nose; she had saved her from the hard hands of her rapers, after all. (AGOT, Daenerys VII)

Perhaps Dany needs to reconsider what put them in that position in the first place, and whether it might actually have been Drogo and her choices, her war, that ruined their life,

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved." "Your life." (AGOT, Daenerys IX)

And I think the reader should be alarmed that while Dany thinks she's saved a life here, she promptly turns around and takes it:

"You will not hear me scream," Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing. "I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life. (AGOT, Daenerys X)

I suppose this is similar to her freeing people but the situation being so bad they’re desperate enough to want to sell themselves back into slavery and instead of that being a wake up call about the results of her choices, telling Dany she hasn’t done what she thinks she’s done, Dany decides to take a cut, to profit off of their suffering.

[sherlokiness]

so if Dany doesn't become Mad Queen you will ship jonerys instead?

Hi, anon.

Will I ship aegony? Never. That ship's basic. It's flavorless. Fire dragon princess ends up with the wolf ice guy. That's just in the surface. The wolf ice guy is the "fire" that fights against the cold. He's not just a secret dragon, he's the dragon- the heir.

I will concede to Jon sincerely falling in love with Dany if she doesn't end up as a villain. What's not to love about a heroic, sacrificial, and beautiful Dragon Queen? Jon doesn't stand a chance.

But I feel like people who think Dany won't be a villain purposely(just accidentally) are just putting their heads in the sand. The antis could say all they want that it was just D&D's invention but people have theorized before that Dany's actions are just going to be worse but they were labeled pro slavery so the antis really can never say Dark Dany came out of nowhere.

Since I'm Dark Dany believer, I find it really hard how Jon could honestly fall for someone like Dany. How could he be as stupid and blind as to fall for a beautiful Queen and ignore her cruel lapses? He would be regressed to AGoT Sansa who fell in love with Joffrey. Sansa was only 11 while Jon has experienced resurrection like... come on! There is no way Dark Dany will not have red flags like Joffrey did so Jon would really have to ignore them while his family could see it more clearly. Unless GRRM is making Jon the meta mouthpiece as to why we shouldn't blame Sansa when it came to Joffrey bc like Jon/the audience, we will become blind when it comes to love????🥴🥴 People blamed Sansa for not seeing Joffrey's true colors yet that's the same case with Jon/audience when it comes to Dany?

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Jon III (AGOT) is such an interesting chapter because it has singularly influenced how people interpret his AGOT arc: that he was a spoiled, classist bully who needed to be brought down a peg.

I wouldn’t disagree that Jon is quite immature, but I do think that using this one chapter to solely represent Jon’s book-long psyche is a bit misguided. Especially when people completely write off and ignore a very important aspect of Jon’s feelings throughout the chapter: he was devastatingly lonely and felt completely abandoned.

Jon followed the rest back to the armory, walking alone. He often walked alone here. There were almost twenty in the group he trained with, yet not one he could call a friend.

It’s interesting that the lack of internal warmth (gained through positive relations with those around him) is mirrored by a very physical chill. Jon is constantly cold.

Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

Not just that, but there is a great contrast with Winterfell which felt warm to Jon - and that’s because there were people he loved in Winterfell.

He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak. So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man’s body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

Up to now, Winterfell has been him home. But he’s finding it difficult to call Castle Black home.

You see the thing is, Jon isn’t angry about how he’s surrounded by lower class boys in the training yard. That’s not the problem in this chapter at all. The issue is that the Wall and the Night’s Watch are not at all what he was promised.

No one had told him the Night’s Watch would be like this; no one except Tyrion Lannister. The dwarf had given him the truth on the road north, but by then it had been too late. Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse.

Not only was important information withheld from him, but his uncle also abandoned him almost immediately.

Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world. Up here, the genial Benjen Stark he had known became a different person.

He has no family and no friends. If the Watch had lived up to his expectations, then it would not have been much of an issue. But that’s not the case. Jon finds out very quickly just how badly off the Night’s Watch is.

He joined the Watch so he could find a place for himself in the world, so he could make a name for himself despite his bastardy, and be accepted. But the great irony is that the exact opposite happened. While skilled, he is constantly downplayed by his instructor. His bastardy is still a defining characteristic - as evidenced by the rather unsavory nickname given to him by Ser Alliser, and the other boys also calling him “bastard” with hostility. And he has no friends. Jon made the decision to join the Watch when he was seated away from his family but then he went there….and still had to sit by himself.

It’s true that much of this is brought on by his own actions, as it’s mentioned in the text that he’s ignoring those around him. But we must appreciate and acknowledge the fact that he’s so lonely and disappointed and hurt. He has just sworn his life away to a penal colony that’s only three steps away from slavery. And for what? The very reason why he joined the Watch in the first place doesn’t even matter in the end.

And yes, Jon is immature. But he’s immature because he’s a boy! Remember, he’s only 14. But there’s an added layer of tragedy because he joined the Watch so he can be a man (as he told his Uncle Ben that he’s almost a man grown). He’s also been told that as a bastard, he has to grow up faster than others. But then what happens?

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. “This is not Winterfell,” he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. “On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You’re no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you.”

Stupidly, Jon argued. “I’ll be fifteen on my name day,” he said. “Almost a man grown.”

Benjen Stark frowned. “A boy you are, and a boy you’ll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night’s Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now.” He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

So he has to man up and fend for himself…but then no, wait! Just kidding. He’s a boy, he couldn’t possibly take on the responsibility of men!

Once again, Jon gets conflicting statements that fail to address the issue at hand. Jon isn’t just a rash youth blindly trying to puff up his feathers and sit at the grown up table. He has no where to go and nothing to be. His only option is to be a man and grow up faster as Masester Luwin says, but then to be told “no actually you can’t” is devastating.

He’s just trying to belong somewhere but it’s not working. And the more lonely he gets, the more resentful he becomes, and as the resentment builds the more he isolates himself. It’s a very tragic cycle.

[…] Afterward he sought out Ghost in the loneliness of his cell, and buried his face in his thick white fur.

If he must be alone, he would make solitude his armor.

And let me challenge the notion that Jon was a “violent classist bully” for a bit. It’s literally stated in the text that he has been keeping to himself all the time, except for when he’s in the training yard. And even in the training yard, there’s absolutely no indication that Jon is purposefully bullying the other boys. He could just be fighting exactly how he’d fight with Robb back in Winterfell, but the difference is that these boys are not castle-bred and thus cannot give as good as they get.

See Jon’s grievances with his fellow recruits are mostly about their ineptitude in the training yard, not about their class.

Most were two or three years his senior, yet not one was half the fighter Robb had been at fourteen. Dareon was quick but afraid of being hit. Pyp used his sword like a dagger, Jeren was weak as a girl, Grenn slow and clumsy. Halder’s blows were brutally hard but he ran right into your attacks. The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.

And even when they have the big confrontation in the armory, it is not initiated by Jon himself. He is actually the victim there.

Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

“You broke my wrist, bastard boy.”

Jon lifted his eyes at the sullen voice. Grenn loomed over him, thick of neck and red of face, with three of his friends behind him. He knew Todder, a short ugly boy with an unpleasant voice. The recruits all called him Toad. The other two were the ones Yoren had brought north with them, Jon remembered, rapers taken down in the Fingers. He’d forgotten their names. He hardly ever spoke to them, if he could help it. They were brutes and bullies, without a thimble of honor between them.

Standing up for himself in this confrontation does NOT make him a classist bully.

And once again, Jon does not mention their class as a matter of grievance. He mentions that they are lawless boys without honor.

Now, is he being insensitive by not acknowledging the class gap? Absolutely. He is failing to realize that the reason for his fellow recruits’ lack of skill is due to the fact that they did not have the economic capital to hire a master at arms. But that does not really make him a classist bully. At most, he’s an insensitive boy who’s focusing wholly on his own problems that he fails to look around him and notice what’s going on outside his bubble. Ignorance can exist without malice.

But we see later in this chapter that Jon does make an effort to make friends (after receiving a talking to from Donal Noye).

Inside, the hall was immense and drafty, even with a fire roaring in its great hearth. Crows nested in the timbers of its lofty ceiling. Jon heard their cries overhead as he accepted a bowl of stew and a heel of black bread from the day’s cooks. Grenn and Toad and some of the others were seated at the bench nearest the warmth, laughing and cursing each other in rough voices. Jon eyed them thoughtfully for a moment. Then he chose a spot at the far end of the hall, well away from the other diners.

He was actually going to take the initiative and make friends with Grenn and the rest of them, before he thought better of it. But when the chance came, he did make the decision to bridge the gap between them and even made an enemy of Ser Alliser Thorne for Grenn’s sake.

Others were gathering around and looking at him curiously. Jon noticed Grenn a few feet away. A thick woolen bandage was wrapped around one hand. He looked anxious and uncomfortable, not menacing at all. Jon went to him. Grenn edged backward and put up his hands. “Stay away from me now, you bastard.”

Jon smiled at him. “I’m sorry about your wrist. Robb used the same move on me once, only with a wooden blade. It hurt like seven hells, but yours must be worse. Look, if you want, I can show you how to defend that.”

Alliser Thorne overheard him. “Lord Snow wants to take my place now.” He sneered. “I’d have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than you will training this aurochs.”

“I’ll take that wager, Ser Alliser,” Jon said. “I’d love to see Ghost juggle.”

Jon heard Grenn suck in his breath, shocked. Silence fell.

Then Tyrion Lannister guffawed. Three of the black brothers joined in from a nearby table. The laughter spread up and down the benches, until even the cooks joined in. The birds stirred in the rafters, and finally even Grenn began to chuckle.

It’s amazing to see that the notion of Jon being a classist brat really only comes from this one chapter and even then, Jon is not hostile for the entirety of it and even goes out of his way to make amends. Not only that, but there’s absolutely no indication that he made any considerable effort to violently bully the rest of the recruits. He stayed away from everyone most of the time. Donal Noye calling him a bully doesn’t truly cover what’s going on in Jon’s head this chapter and we as a fandom should do a better job of challenging some of these statements - because we have the benefit of the omniscient reader’s view so we actually know what’s been happening.

All in all, I wish readers were more empathetic with how they read Jon III. We shouldn’t just focus on his insensitivity towards the rest of the recruits, but we should also be looking at his loneliness and great desperation to fit in because goddamnit he never has belonged anywhere, no matter how hard he tried. This chapter is not about a violent bully getting a good face slapping. It’s about a lonely boy trying and failing to make a home for himself, after leaving the only one he ever knew.

[ludcake]

been talking to some people feel like i should post some initial thoughts on my cringe oc au for asoiaf...... i was thinking the other day about how like. so many of the characters we have are emblematic of the generational rot and how they're in a position to stop it and end the cycle and stop looking back and make a better world and this is something that almost never happens!! there's a real chance for a better world thanks to these characters. and i was also thinking about how like... well, a big part of why they're in these situations, why they can do all that, why these changes would even happen, are pretty bad on a personal level.

and i think it's fascinating to think about how many fics and aus are like, wish fulfilment for happy endings (which i think is great! being comforted is good sometimes, just not always my thing) and how some of the natural consequences of these things could straight up just be. the rot continues. the house doesn't fall under its own weight it just keeps rotting and new beams keep being erected to keep it up and nobody ever leaves and they're all trapped. and how interesting that is! to me.

so i started thinking, well, what if the characters did get happy endings expected of their initial positions at the start of AGOT? and the key to it all is Jon Arryn surviving. Jon doesn't die, Ned doesn't become Hand, Dany isn't sold off, and then... it just keeps going. the rot continues. robert rules as robert and the baratheons stay in power and the feudal power structures get even more entrenched and when Young Griff comes back there's no mummer's dragon for him to fight and then it's two hundred years later and Westeros is stuck. They're all stuck, slavery still prevails in Astapor, Meereen, Yunkai and New Ghis, the Iron Throne is jockeyed between dynasties and houses based on thin claims, magic is thinner and thinner and all this rot is getting exported and entangled further and further and further. I have a whole thing about Westeros and Essos going through a 17th century style chain of craziness later but the core is.

for want of these people, of these children, of these characters we love. for theon to be lord of the iron islands, and robb lord of winterfell, and jon live free with the wildlings and brienne be forever remembered as a great knight and Shireen live a long and happy life and they're all trapped in the same system they started out because the only way out is through. you need to break the walls to get out of this house. there's no door.

you can send me asks about this but it's just like. such a fascinating thing about it. how would these characters we love fare if the walls never broke down. if the house wasn't burning. if they stayed trapped and tried to find happiness in this ideal feudal configuration that has been repeated over and over and over again.

and then there's my cringe ocs afterwards because i love jacobean styles and i wanted to write something in westeros that ran more along the lines of three musketeers than henry vi

[diamondperfumes]

The assertions that Dany will "succumb" to her family's allegedly "evil legacy" or the "taint" in her blood require pathologizing her for being an abuse victim borne of rape and incest, buying into bioessentialist "genetics is destiny" argument, and decontextualizing most of the passages from her book arc. This post, with a song juxtaposed with out-of-context quotes from Dany's chapters, is an excellent example.

"Every child knows the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness." The only "mad" Targaryens were Rhaegel, Aerion, Aerys II, and Viserys III. If you want to stretch it, you can include Baelor, though he was more pious and fanatic than mad. Maegor was cruel but lucid. Rhaegar was not mad, despite being Aerys II's son. And the narrative has distanced Dany from Aerys II several times, because one of ASOIAF's central theses is not "you are your father's child," but "you can overcome your father."

"She could not look behind her, must not look behind her" is not Dany "refusing to look at her family's history." This is taken from her fever dreams in AGOT Dany IX, and what she can't look back at is an icy breath that would cause her a "death worse than death, howling forever alone in the darkness." It's the first time Dany sees the Others in her dreams, and she is the only other character in AGOT to dream of them, the other character being Bran.

"I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice." This is Dany feeling guilty for crucifying 163 slavers. How is that a sign of madness or refusal to confront her family legacy? It's actually a sign that Dany has empathy even for the worst of humanity, even for her enemies. Also, crucifying slavers isn't evil. It's odd that the same fandom that calls Dany a slaver, slave trader, slave profiteer, and slavery enabler, also calls her a tyrant or mad for crucifying slavers. What is she supposed to do with slavers? What is the "proper" way to handle them?

The mother of monsters passage is more proof that Dany is introspective and self-critical. In children's media, shounen anime, and Marvel movies, a villain may unironically call themselves a monster, but in more complicated, nuanced, adult literature, characters who call themselves monsters usually aren't bad people. They're the self-deprecating, humble, and thoughtful characters who are reflecting on their flaws and mistakes. Again, if Dany is someone who refuses to think about the dark side of her family, she would not agonize over the consequences of using her power. Monstrosity is associated with being stigmatized, ostracized, and alienated by hegemonic forces in society, and those characters who identify with monstrosity often have something to reveal about the violence of the status quo and the normalization of oppression.

George is deconstructing the coin quote, not reinforcing it. Madness/greatness, ice/fire, east/west, north/south, sun/moon, pain/pleasure, love/hate, are all dichotomies in the novel that George sets out to show can unite in some way. As I said, most Targaryens were not "mad," and I find it odd that for a fandom as progressive as it frames itself to be, the ableist stereotyping of "foreign otherized race from the East is genetically predisposed toward madness" isn't something fans problematize more.

Dany longing for the house with the red door and wanting to rest, laugh, plant trees and see them grow, are also seen as signs of madness because of her statelessness and homelessness. If a teenage girl has been raped and abused, and is herself a product of rape and abuse, and comes from an exotic Eastern family, then apparently her longing for home is actually a bomb waiting to detonate inside her, because she's unfit to belong anywhere. It's shocking that this mentality is seen as media literate or subversive.

"Dragons plant no trees" has already been disproven by Dany's arc itself. Dany reclaims fire and blood by the end of ADWD because she realizes the peace in Meereen is false (which it is). Jon Snow goes from wanting to hire glassblowing apprentices to plant crops in greenhouses to grow food, to abandoning his vows and declaring war to save his sister, and then dies. Why is that not seen as a sign of "succumbing to madness?" The acts are narratively paralleled. Perhaps––and this may be crazy, but stay with me––the thesis of FeastDance is that you cannot grow, build, and heal a nation in soil watered with blood. No such rebuilding or regrowing is possible unless and until real change occurs, and for real change to happen, the corrupt old guard cannot stay alive.

Certainly TWOW will be a darker book for every viewpoint character, but it's interesting to see how a combination of pathologizing Dany for her gender, ethnicity, genes/biology, trauma, and stateless/rootless/homeless status as an exile/diaspora, with decontextualizing her chapters, quotes, and passages, and an overall misunderstanding of the themes of ASOIAF, to single Dany out as a "dark" character who won't be able to "outrun" her "negative family history."

[hamliet]

Hi! I just want to say I love your alchemy meta posts related to asoiaf! So many things clicked after reading them. Wanted to ask, you mentioned that Dany/Jon have an active/passive motif in their respective arcs, can you elaborate on that? Does it refer to their future arc in TWOW? (Dany going all out on slavery/conquest, Jon adopting a more apathetic attitude to the impeding doom of the Long Night...)

Hi!! So, you're here to nag me about the meta I said I would write and never did despite outlining it, yes, fair enough. (I'm kidding with you! Thanks actually for this kick in the pants.)

It's actually a motif for both Jon and Dany's arcs throughout the entire story. So let's start by redefining again what the point of passive/active is. In alchemy, the main goal is the "union of opposites," usually embodied in two characters in literature. The classic opposites tend to have the following motifs/symbols associated with them:

Male: Sun, sulphur, fire and air, hot and dry, red, gold, heart, active.

Female: Moon, mercury (or quicksilver), earth and water, cool and moist, white, silver, mind, passive.

ASOIAF switches the genders, which is very interesting. Jon is marked as white, water (snow), has qualities of mercury (mercury can shift states very easily; Jon goes undercover), is cunning, is of course associated with the cold north. Dany...

Well, Dany actually starts A Game of Thrones as passive (not wanting to marry Drogo and begging Viserys not to make her), but by the end of the first book she is fully active. This actually fits her other "alchemical" motifs because she starts off as white, the "moon of [Drogo's] life,", silver, etc. but by the end of the first book is reborn out of fire, and is therefore marked as sun, sulfur, gold, fire and air (flying on fire-breathing dragons), hot and dry (the territory of Essos), etc.

And of course, Dany is active, while Jon is passive. Let's go through the books, shall we? The active/passive motif exists in relationships as well as their internal motivations/personal goals.

Let's compare their (romantic/sexual) relationships first. Jon is reluctant to get involved with Ygritte and only does when there is little choice; he is attracted to her, so I wouldn't say it's nonconsensual, but there's also certainly an element of "do it or die." Dany also had little choice with Drogo, but by the middle of AGOT she's the one initiating public sex with him without any shame.

Jon's other quasi-romantic relationship so far is with Val, which thus far is (and likely will forever remain) unconsummated, with Jon fully committing to never violating his vows again. He also refuses to marry Val even though doing so would be politically expedient for Stannis. In contrast, Daenerys initiates with Daario, and she is the one who decides to marry Hizdahr even though she doesn't want to, for reasons of political expedience. She's actively making these choices.

It's even present in how they treat subordinates in regards to sex. Dany has sex with Irri and feels guilty for it, because even if Irri is happy to do so, she's still Dany's servant, and Dany knows there's an uncomfortable power dynamic there and expressly feels guilt over it. Jon is instead defined by what he doesn't do: his brothers of the Night's Watch spread rumors about him and Satin, but the reality is that nothing is going on and there probably isn't any attraction there either. Dany takes action; Jon does nothing and thinks that it'll all blow over and people will come to accept Satin, when that is very naive. (I'm not saying Jon is doing anything wrong; he's not. It's just an interesting parallel I noticed.)

Then let's talk their purposes and internal motivations. Jon defines himself as illegitimate, as Ned Stark's bastard. Daenerys defines herself as the rightful heir to the Targaryen dynasty. How does this translate into active vs passive?

Daenerys is active in regards to protecting slaves and freeing them. She just doesn't always do it wisely. But she intervenes and stops several assaults and frees people, crowning herself queen in Meereen to stay queen.

Jon, on the other hand, is a lot more passive. He refuses to help Gilly when she asks for help at the visit to Craster's because it's just not done and would violate his vows. Jon is forced by Qhorin Halfhand to go undercover with the Wildings; literally, he's pushed into it. Even when he is elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he did not campaign for himself nor seek it out. It's passivity, and a sharp contrast to Daenerys's deliberate seeking of power.

However, what they both do with power is very similar. Daenerys wants to free people and save them. Jon, too, wants to save the Wildlings. They can't help but empathize with people mistreated around them. Daenerys definitely sees herself in slaves (sold to Drogo), in sexual assault victims (again, Drogo), and in people forcibly taken to strange lands (being raised in Essos, always on the run). Jon sees himself in the Wildlings, always defined as an "other" despite being very human (Wildlings and bastards are treated differently for no legitimate reason). Both struggle with duty vs passion, with Dany choosing duty (Hizdahr) over passion (Daario), and Jon of course as well (choosing the Night's Watch over Ygritte and over Val).

As for the future, well. Every character tends to become "the monster you think I am," to quote Tyrion. What is the monster everyone thinks Daenerys is? What is the monster everyone thinks Jon is?

The Mad King's Daughter.

Bastards are craven.

Both quotes occur multiple times in every single book. Both Jon and Dany try to define themselves as different from this. Jon refuses to be craven. Dany is in denial about who her father was, but there's also a level wherein she worries about her own sanity, so she suspects something.

Both Jon and Dany also make an opposite decision in A Dance With Dragons. Jon finally chooses to be active and march south; the problem is that this completely destroys duty and is foolish. Dany chooses to be passive and robes herself in white and pearls again in her marriage to Hizdahr. It just... doesn't work out for either of them.

Both have tried so hard, and gotten nothing. They're going to sink into their flaws, their tendencies towards activity and passivity, and also become the monsters people think they are. HOWEVER. Their arcs are not going to end with them as monsters. They need to see what they are capable of becoming to truly face their demons and overcome them.

Daenerys is going to go on the warpath in The Winds of Winter. I think that's very clear from her final chapter in A Dance With Dragons. She tried to temper herself. She chained her dragons. She married a Meereenese man. She let the fighting pits reopen. It hasn't brought the peace she's been seeking. I think she'll use fire and blood to subdue her enemies and take Westeros.

Jon, on the other hand, has just been killed. Melisandre is clearly going to resurrect him. He wanted to march south and ditch duty before he died, and I don't doubt he'll ditch duty. Why hang around the Night's Watch when they just killed you? He's probably going to sink into apathy, especially once he finds out that Arya is not the girl in need of rescue. His family is nowhere around him. He was just killed by his new "brothers." Why bother? Why keep caring? Why keep trying? I definitely see him ditching the Watch but not coming to Stannis's aid either.

Also, both will get a reveal about their parents. Dany will learn that the Mad King was truly evil when King's Landing blows up in her face in a green blur of her dad's wildfyre. Jon will learn he's actually not Ned Stark's bastard... not even his son, in fact. Dany's reveal will be a result of her action, Jon's will almost certainly be a reveal from someone else to him, not his own searching. Dany will be horrified because of what her father wanted to do and what she committed (even if she didn't mean to go so far), while Jon will be horrified by what was omitted by the man he thought was his father.

But the answers to their problems can be found through each other. Jon will find his family again--his siblings Arya, Bran, maybe Rickon, and Sansa--and meet Sam again, too. He'll find love with Daenerys, someone who has messed up atrociously and still wants to do good. And he'll find out that being a Targaryen is not a taint through her; even when you'e messed up, you can still be a hero. Daenerys will be wondering why on earth she even has her dragons and how she can possibly rule after leaving the city in ashes, and along come the Others. She's the only one who can defeat them. She'll just have killed f!Aegon (likely unintentionally) and knew he was a fraud, but here's an actual family member. She's not the last Targaryen; instead of seeing that as a threat, I think she'll see it as a comfort eventually. Dany will help Jon remember his duty again, and Jon will help Dany love and be loved again, and together they'll save the world.