#against transmisogyny

[kotoneshiomiofficial]

when transfems talk about how we live in a society, we mean that US culture only recognizes two sexes and two genders, and then equates them. male = man and female = woman, and its despises anyone who steps outside of those bounds (intersexism and transphobia). so when we talk about how you cant be perisex afab and then call yourself a transfem, what we mean is that society has (whether you like it or not) treated you as a girl/woman because thats what it said on your birth certificate. you cannot transition to be a gender you already a part of. and there are already plenty of nonbinary labels for people who have a feminine gender but dont feel 100% like a woman. and to imply that you can suggests trans women are not the same gender as women. so at best third-gendering us or at worst saying we're not real women. and when it comes to intersexism, listen to tma intersex people about it and not tme perisex people. and i mean actually listen, dont just use them as hypothetical talking points.

[gremlingirlsmell]

imagine concluding from this that transfems have disproportionately bad opinions, instead of tme people being disproportionately blind to transmisogyny

[die-tenebris]

don't wanna derail the post I saw this discussion on- it was all in the notes anyway, so it certainly isn't op's problem. I'm gonna say this with so much love:

Calling somebody a 'theyfab' is not punching up. If someone's being transmisogynistic, say that, or call them a bigot. Naming the tangible harm done to you will always be the most effective thing to do.

The cis people who created that term made it with the explicit intent to mock and insult people's identities. No matter what you mean when you say it, this is its origin and to most people, its only meaning. It describes nothing about the discrimination you face.

People afab are marginalized, especially if they're queer. You cannot "punch up" on a fellow oppressed group. I understand the specific vitriol that they inflict on you hurts.

You don't need a word to call somebody, you need and deserve adequate justice for the tangible harm done to you; and my heart aches that nobody queer- especially trans women- ever seems to receive that.

I'm aware I can't make anybody do anything, so I'm not gonna try to tell you not to use that word. I just want to say it can't ever address, undo, or heal any harm done to you. It can only redirect it.

[jingerpi]

[do not use this as justification for sexist bigotry, this is a personal thought relating to the investigation of ideas and not a statement meant to be derisive towards feminist theories.]

disclaimer out of the way, I've been thinking about transmisogyny a lot lately and it's really interesting to consider the nuances of. I think a lot of the objections to transfeminist theory simply come from sexism, but there is one point of potential critique that I think warrants further inquiry. to get at this we have to first clarify something else though.

the distinction of tme/tma might sound like an issue to a lot of transmisogynists, but most of their objections die away as soon as you clarify it's not "never ever experiences transmisogyny" and is perhaps more accurately "trans misogyny exemptable" as this gets at the reality of trans women facing transmisogyny regardless of what we do, there is no way out, we are the intended targets. other people face transmisogyny as a sort of warning, a clarifying statement that "if you are transfeminine we will Other you" and they're able to exempt themselves from this in most situations by clarifying "I am not a trans woman" regardless of the particular form that takes.

not everyone is able to exempt themselves from all gender related bigotry though. you cannot, for example, make this distinction (of not being transfem) to escape intersexism, which is why many intersex repeatedly experience gender based oppression and cannot opt out of it. this is oppression is fundamentally not an result of transmisogyny, it is a result of intersexism.

with that clarification out of the way, I think there is an understandable critique regards the simplification that

"men have power over women" <- correct, easily verifiable, almost everybody agrees. "Black men have power of Black women" <- still correct and non controversial (at least in feminist spaces). then you go to "trans men have power over trans women" and everybody freaks out, yeah? like people start to object to this understanding suddenly, even though we've only changed 1 thing, which we've changed before and nobody found issue with it in those other areas. many of these objections come transmisogyny, but I don't think it actually tells the whole story to write all of this off as transmisogyny.

I think why we run into an issue with this understanding (again, critique, not refutation) is that trans people's gender is often, perhaps even usually in flux. the statement "men have power over women" is trivially true, and is a statement on gender and misogyny. this comparison can be brought to trans men and trans women, but it's not without nuance, as the most basic information we can get from this is applied to gender, something which is often actively shifting for trans people.

the reason is don't see this as some kind of disproof of transmisogyny or something should be clear though, for two reasons (aside from the obvious statement towards trends rather than specific instances)

1. transmisogyny is fundamentally not the same thing as misogyny at large, and

2. though trans-gender is often shifting, we can use the prior distinction of exemptable and intended targets to largely do away with this problem.

despite the framework of misogyny not applying 1-1 onto trans people (many who identify as trans men have 'correctly' experienced misogyny), we can still see how it is useful to look at the intersection of misogyny and transphobia. While yes, trans men often experience both of these things, it is often not simultaneously like it is for trans women. As trans women transition our closeness to womanhood tends to increase so as our experiences of transphobia increase, so too do our experiences of misogyny- where as the opposite goes for trans men. it's not that one can't be sexist and transphobic to a trans man, they're not transmisogyny exempt in some metaphysical sense, but rather that for trans women our transness and our womanhood have a positive correlation, our transness and our womanhood are inseparable, we cannot denounce one by leaning on the other.

on the contrary, while trans men will still face transphobia and sexism which denies the validity of their transness and treats them with misogyny, as they transition their relationship begins to more closely match that of men, because of course they are men, this leads to them being able to escape transmisogyny not by being part of some magically 100% transmisogyny excluded class, but because they have the ability to meaningfully denounce trans feminity, to put down womanhood and to become "one of the guys", it's conditional, yes, but often the conditions are not to "pass" in the traditional sense but rather to express views aligning with the patriarchy and derision of feminity, i.e, misogyny.

I think we can see this in the popular responses to tme/tma discourse within the trans community: many trans men correctly recognize what is happening and stand in solidarity, transmisogyny is a genuine problem and it makes sense to talk about the intersection between misogyny and transphobia, trans men even experience both at times, so it is a good idea to stand against. Then, some men begin to talk about their experiences with denial of who they are and the misogyny that can come with that. This too is rather sensible, though it doesn't somehow counteract or disprove transmisogyny generally, it can be studied and acknowledge much in the same way we understand cis men are tested with transmisogyny to enforce what others call "toxic masculinity", despite them not being transfeminine. Then we have a third and wildly popular group, who appropriate the struggles of the second group, where co-option occurs by men who buy into or express sexist ideas for the sake of more fully exempting themselves from transmisogyny. Along with this, instead of recognizing the basis for transmisogyny as intersecting gender based oppression, because doing so would show their fleeting relationship to it, they redefine it as being intersection of two metaphysical identities generally, and thus "transandrophobia" is born, posed as being on an equal to transmisogyny, after all, they're both born from intersecting identities are they not?

of course, we know Androphobia is not something which actually exists, nor is Misandry - these arent axis' of oppression, and they largely know this too, but their goal is to obfuscate the ways in which marginalized men still benefit from their manhood. it takes what I think can be a rather genuine expression that trans men experience both transphobia and misogyny, and instead of grappling with the ways they can societally put down others to gain exemption from transmisogyny, the way their relationship to it is transient, they instead cling to it and invent new terms or fall on old bigoted talking points to justify doing so. "transandrophobia" yes, but also "sex based oppression" and "male/female socialization" these terms and rhetoric are regularly used against transfeminists by these trans men who have exempted themselves from transmisogyny, who have sided with patriarchy over their trans sisters, instead allying with the general terf movement at large and often implicitly misgendering themselves in the process.

and just to be clear, not exempting yourself doesn't mean you will experience the brunt of transmisogyny or to the same degree trans women do - you may be called slurs by bigots, may be harassed in given instances, or sometimes worse, but the systemic forces of transmisogyny go far deeper than negative interactions with individuals, and these transmisogynistic forces are again, aimed specifically at trans women. While I want to recognize the ways in which transmisogyny permeates all of society, do not see this and mistake it for support for the idea that everyone experiences it equally and their relationship is only changed by putting down transfemininity, it is and always has been about targeting transfemininity, the reason I clarify exemptable is due to society's constant enforcing of transmisogynistic ideas on everyone, even if the worst persecution is specifically and intentionally reserved for trans women

Lastly I want to say that these ideas are still developing and my understanding of them will likely change with time and discussion. I dont think these ideas are particularly new, they seem to underpin a lot of discussion on these topics, but this is my attempt to bring them from an implicit unspoken agreement into a more firmly expressed position. Doing so is necessarily going to expose flaws and I see that as a good thing, as doing so is required to elevate understanding of these theories to a higher level. Some of these flaws will be with my expression and understanding, and I will work to correct those, but some will likely be with the ideass themselves and it will take time for them to develop. Please read in good faith, thank you.

[trans-androgyne]

Being transfem does not exempt you from being transmisogynistic any more than being transmasc exempts you from being transandrophobic. If you believe in male socialization you are transmisogynistic for it, no matter what your identity is. I've said it before and I'll say it a million times more: there is no one male/female socialization and if you think you can cleanly assume someone's life experiences from their assigned sex, you are a transphobe and a bioessentialist (parts -> specific personality traits? really?).

[joan-deactivated20230204]

so much of what is frustrating about the way tme people on here will talk about trans women is that you can tell they only think of trans women as this aesthetic category, an abstract identity collected through memes and porn posts and the vague knowledge that when you say "fuck terfs" it involves trans women somehow. its a culture which will pat itself on the back for how trans-inclusive it is while at the same time parroting transmisogynistic lines that drive tgirl circles to become increasingly isolated.

[zabreus]

threatening FBI intervention over a tom and jerry-esque “we would have beat ET with hammers” type joke post is the kind of thing a grown adult only does either if they’re being deliberately hyperbolic to save a bruised ego or if they’re so genuinely terrified of a minority that their frontal lobe shuts down completely

[gremlingirlsmell]

if you have ever called a transfem a baeddel and/or believe in transandrophobia, you are part of a reactionary transmisogynistic hate group

[pokemon-radical-red]

“Guys, come on, it’s not blatant radfem rhetoric. See! They didn’t say that they hate trans women. They said they hate trans men! So like it’s basically awesome now, because so many people don’t see you as actually transphobic if you take it out on any trans people who aren’t trans women!”

[ayoitslilith]

just saw another post about TMA/TME. if i have to spend five more seconds hearing people try to ignore intersectionality (except for in certain circumstances where it's okay i fucking guess) i'm going to explode. like i get it, a very online transmasc teenager was mean to you once. why don't you go to a community center or a park or something

[trans-androgyne]

Trans people are not each other’s oppressors. That falls squarely on the shoulders of cis* people. We are all capable of harming each other; we can all weaponize or perpetuate exorsexism, transmisogyny, and transandrophobia. All of us. And we should talk about it together. We should talk about the different ways we are hurt both inside and outside the queer & trans community.

The community accepts us all only conditionally. Transfems cannot be masc or have kinks without being harassed and painted as a threat. Transmascs are ostracized for being too masc and misgendered, called fake for being too fem. Non-binary people are accepted so long as they can perceive you as and treat you like woman-lite. Any genders/experiences that fall outside or between these categories are mocked. And more. We all have stereotypes of us based on thin, White, perisex, gender conforming or neutrally androgynous, relatively privileged trans people. We all need to recognize and address these stereotypes. They are not representative of the diverse trans experience.

None of us are accepted on a wide scale by broader society. We are all in the fight against transphobia together. And it is a fight. Tensions are high and only mutual respect and support can relieve them. We can address intracommunity issues without power-jacketing each other or eating our own. No group of us has cis privilege. No group of us has male privilege. Nothing like cis men do. We need to listen to each other and overcome our assumptions to better understand trans experiences. I invite you to tell me how you perceive your oppression and I hope you’ll listen when I do the same.

[theblockedtomb]

if you make posts about, e.g., trans men being seen as the worst of both men and women, denied the right to speak on either experience, and tag it as transandrophobia or something similar, you are making it very clear that when trans women talk about their experiences you either do not listen or do not care. Trans women also experience these things. It's not because you're a trans man. It's because you're trans. I know you're trans because you're a man but that's not the point, the point is all trans people are treated like this. Unless they either go stealth or gain high levels of social acceptance. Guess which subgroup of trans people that's easier for.

[worstgirleva]

i'm sorry, but if you (not trans woman) was read as a trans woman and suffered transmisogyny and your biggest problem with that is that trans women are not willing to accept you as transmisogyny affect then you kinda are part of the problem here

[pathologictwo]

i fully believe that some gay men view their gayness through their hatred of and dehumanization of women rather than their attraction to other men. you put your hands on your female friends without consent, you dance up on them and grope them when you go out, you make disgusting sexual comments about them, and then you degrade them to their faces and talk about how disgusting vaginas and breasts and periods are. why is a core facet of your sexuality how much you don’t like women instead of how much you like men

[eileennatural]

is the unpopularity of transfem headcanons compared to transmac headcanons due to transmisogyny or is everyone just unenlighted

[rotting-pond]

It is crazy how much time some TME trans people spend trying to prove that TERFs hate us too. Like yeah okay whatever, they hate us too, we know. But do you think the fact that TME trans TERFs exist maybe tells you something about the primary target of TERFs. Which is to say. Not us! Like do you think perhaps the amount of time TERFs spend harassing and talking about and thinking about trans women maybe says something important!!