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craftlands · 3 months

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oop sorry! i did come across one of your mor pankh posts regarding the designs and such about the characters and i do have some points to lay out on their accuracies and inaccuracies, as an indian myself, though i cannot say my word for it will be wholly accurate since again, india as a subcontinent is VERY chaotic and the cultures within different states and a lot of times, certain villages and territories vary drastically. a lot of my points could be disagreed with by another indian and if some of my points ARE incorrect, i'm open to being corrected.

i know it's also pretty late, considering this was one of your older posts but i did give it some chew time. sorry if i'm bothering you.

1) first up is kaalaa baunaa. she IS wearing a saree but the draping and style is pretty reminiscent of modernized styles of saree draping. we do have the traditional drape but the generations right now have gotten to mixing and matching western clothing and experimenting with saree drapes. her outfit, while not culturally inaccurate ( because we HAVE the short/pant combo with the saree ) is grossly inaccurate to the time and setting.

there's also the fact that her outfit screams 'bollywood' in a sense. the blouse in particular is something you'd see on actresses during burner movie shoots ( and even those were a little less provocative...but again the blouse does hold a lot of callbacks to colonial oppression and wearing sleeveless blouses back then was considered 'rebellious' ). in my opinion, if i were to change up her design, i would just omit the saree and put her in a salwaar, since that is the usual go to in northern indian states ( unless in formal events ).

but for the stuff i loved about the design? is the design itself XD. it's just grossly inaccurate to the timeline, but in a modern context, it does have a very stylish flair to it. i just wish she reserved those for festivals rather than everyday living ( because from experience, sarees are HARD to walk in depending on how you drape it which is why my college uniform is a salwaar ). unless they were trying to hammer home how alien she is perceived to be, as an arcanist, which in this case? it works thematically. just tone down the sexualization.

her second outfit is a little more accurate though and i have a preference to that. mostly because of the jewellery she uses. mh. the bollywood style outfit? the embroided saree? the baithale bottu? MH. y e s.

tldr ; the design is pretty good but contextually, for the timeline and for her occupation? it's not the most accurate. but i wouldn't call it a travesty and completely inaccurate either. in a modern setting, her outfit would have passed well in a get together or a friend's party.

2) shamane. okay so the imagery and his outfit WAS something i needed to do my research on. but the 'connection to nature' thing is pretty common here too in tribal societies. my own community, while centuries far removed from it's initial tribal roots, still worships familial sprits and natural objects alonsgside the usual practice of hinduism. i kind of liked that aspect about him tbh because it did reflect of the few vestiges that were left over in my community XD. hell a good chunk of his design was very steeped in tribal influence, though differentiating it is a little difficult ( which again is my critique, but that could also be me not being as well versed in indian tribal culture. it's probably in part because of ignorance. ).

the closes i can get to the influence of his outfit would be naga tribes in nagaland with a mix in of a few others. i'll try to do more research and get back to you on that. i'm just wondering how he got all the way to nagaland???? that's like in the far east...though if were to narrow down the locations, it would be in the few locations where it snows...HMMMM. but yeah the feather motif? tribes here seem to tout it too, depending on what tribe it is.

he does wear your typical sherwani with a large coat on top, something that is, in fact accurate to men's fashion at the time. most middle class or well to do families ( the ones who were not a part of the 60% - 70% below the poverty line ) did hold that similar style of traditional wear with western influence, or straight up turn to western clothing as a whole. its a very small nod to the fact that he was from a well to do family at least. then the eye imagery on the prosthetic arm could be a reference to the nazar, though it's not blue.

tldr; his outfit holds heavy tribal influence but i really need to do my research on which ones in particular.

3) kanjira.

okay. i'm a little upset with her. the fortune teller aspect is rooted in how astrology played a huge part in indian culture. the coffee readings could have been an aspect carried over by cultural mixing through islamic trade and invasions as well. kanjira is another aspect that is a little more of unsure territory. there are parts of her outfit that i can recognize. but together it does feel a little disjointed. and confusing. her jewelry is recognizable. her kamarbandh for one and her skirt.

the blouse though? that confuses me. for one it's more in line with 1910s fashion. the blouse was initially not a part of a lot of traditional indian dresses and were introduced by the british due to extreme discomfort ( aka they didn't like that indian women didn't cover up their chest ). the earlier blouses strongly resembles victorian blouses, with puffed sleeves and ruffles. but then there is that older the shoulder thingie and i'm like ??? HOW DOES THAT WORK-

the snake motif could be a reference to the irula tribe from south india. even her name is a reference to an instrument in south india ( which resembles a tambourine ). i don't think her base outfit is based on accuracy due to the mismatched nature of it. it seems like she just took what clothes she could and made do with that, which given her economic status, makes sense. her alt outfit does glean into what influences she took after, perhaps the banjara tribe. i will need to look into it some more. but it is admittedly, facing a similar problem to kaalaa in how it's so heavy stylized. it's not accurate save for the motifs and yes, it could do with some better work in both versions.

now for the stereotype. i'm very on the fence in this sense with how i could understand that the 'thief' stereotype is referenced. but kanjira is however, a product of some very real stuff that happened ( and still goes on even now ). the unfortunate reality is that people who are considered beneath the lower caste and obc umbrella face their share of discrimination as hooligans and thieves amongst the indian majority as well, even today. it's harmful, but she's the reflection of the struggles of a lot of communities who lived in poverty post colonial india. the british left a lot of scars and the governments after did very little to help and kanjira, as a child with no parents did what a lot of kids back then turned to. it's circumstances deeply rooted in systemic oppression, casteism and so many other issues. i've had family members in similar situations ( my mother's side in particular ).

so i do wince at the fact that she's labelled as a 'stereotype' even though i do see WHY she's a stereotype when the context is removed. her spoken english is also another wince. i know you didn't mean to be offensive and i'm sure to a lot of indians you might not be but kanjira's english is the way it is simply because she was never formally educated in it. she does refer to asking for help to read english words and it's fairly obvious she picked up on the language by listening to others speak it. matilda however, did have to learn it from a pretty young age in the foundation. she was educated in it, whether she likes it or not ( a lot like my case ).

a bit of a breakdown here. english is mostly learned in india for the sake of convenience. it's used in our parliament because it's culturally neutral and doesn't show favor to certain state languages ( and native language in itself is a very culturally sensitive topic in india ). you learn it in case you need to study in foreign firms or if you travel abroad. it also means that if you and a good chunk of other indians speak in english, it allows some leeway to communicate in other states. because again, different languages and dialects are spoken in different parts of india. i myself have a better chance of communicating with a different people from different states in english, no matter how broken it is than having to learn a separate language every time.

i know a lot of people in my college who didn't start learning english till grade 11 and speak pretty similarly to kanjira. so alluding to her imperfect english as a 'not great thing' kind of rubs me the wrong way due to personal gripes of mine, mostly in part due to how eletist it tends to be at times. the mindset of janjira not being good at english being considered 'really not great' kind of fuels into a still ongoing problem of insecurity and a lot of other issues i'd rather not clog the post with.

she's fluent in hindi and it's obviously her preferred language and she can certainly write and read hindi as well. it's kind of similar to making fun of an american for not knowing fluent french they picked up from a few classes, while they're still in america. again, i doubt you meant any harm saying that but my gripe with how learning english is so desperately seeded in some families just to appease how the west views us ( that stereotype you mentioned? yeah ) and the constant perpetuation of the stereotype, has a lot of ramifications.

i don't know how to explain it but it's kind of like this : you call broken english a stereotype, we're afraid of being stereotyped, we try to avoid being stereotyped. but there are people here who can't. maybe their medium of education wasn't english for a good few years, even if their family is well off. that leads to further discrimination from us to them and from you to them.

yes english is a neutral language, but it's also horrifically overrated due to the imbued belief that it also alludes to being educated. i lost chunks of my own mother tongue trying to learn english, simply because it was given more priorities at my home and at my school because of us moving and the imbued fear of seeming uneducated.

i know you meant no harm to that.

but on a cooler note, punji literally means 'money'. kanjira named her snake 'money' and with the drip it has? it's strangely cute XD. it's like that one meme.

also kanjira's accent, kind of reminds me of a few annoying girls in my school ( it's a very common accent in north india and my hindi speakers tbh ). she's literally the valley girl's take in india. the drawl, the lilting tones every time i listen to her, i hear that one girl from fourthe grade and i'm like "n o." because it has that condescending edge to it. i love it XD.

tldr ; kanjira is both 'it kind of makes sense' and 'fuck it we ball'. she could do with reworking. i like the thought that her outdated blouse and her clothing was a mix and match, possibly picked up from charities as well but...yeah XD.

these are mostly my takes. overall, i thing r1999 actually has some of the better depictions of indian culture compared to a lot of other stuff out there ( and there is a LOT of bad stuff ). the fact that there was variation in their accents, the casual switch between english and hindi, the story of mor pankh itself and shamane's incessant need to feed us ( which is a thing in our families btw )...i'm pretty happy with it. and yes, even we fuck up aspects of our own culture. aka, adipurush exists and i will shit on that way more.

sorry for bothering you and thanks for reading through it all ( and i hope i didn't come across as rude in that segment about language )!

hiya! sorry for taking so long to get to this ask -- i was out of town for like a week and had absolutely Zero energy on coming back for like another week afterwards. i want to head this off by saying you're not bothering me in the slightest, i'm genuinely delighted to get to be able to talk about things like this in more depth and i really appreciate you taking the time to write this out! (peek behind the curtain: i have gotten up several times and paced around excitedly in the course of writing this. i REALLY love discussion and critique and Learning Context in general.)

i think time's been pretty kind to the Mor Pankh update, all things considered -- having several months to sit on it (and also no longer playing CROB -- good god Centipede and Black Pepper are an absolute mess of racist/Orientalist tropes, and that was pretty recent at the time of Mor Pankh), it's definitely better than i initially gave it credit for. a lot of things you've mentioned here -- especially a good deal of the further context on Kaalaa Baunaa and Shamane's clothing, as well as further context on Kanjira -- is something i truly don't have much to add to other than "i didn't know that, and this makes me a lot more favorable towards them than before".

definitely Kanjira is still someone i find myself heavily split on. i think a lot of what you mentioned about the way i treated her speaking broken English very callously is probably right on the money and thank you for the correction on that end -- given the context of the story that seems to be one of the more thoughtful aspects of her overall characterization and design. the thief/fortuneteller stereotype is something i'm a little more hesitant to dismiss at face value, though; while it may be a coincidence, there's definitely a history of stereotyping Rromani people in particular as like... scantily clad fortunetellers who steal from people, and it's something that feels really prevalent in Kanjira's design for me. from an in-story perspective i think rev19 does a great job of contextualizing and fleshing her out as a character, but from an overview of the character it rings eerily similar to Orientalist tropes about both Indian and Rromani people in a way that i will probably never be fully comfortable with.

i do think it's hilarious that her snake is named Money though. that's beautiful and i can't complain in the slightest.

Kaalaa Baunaa is a delight to read about in terms of where her outfit might be drawn from. i genuinely don't know a good 90% of the fashion/clothing context when it comes to basically anything in rev19, so for a lot of it i'm definitely deferring to you in terms of whether or not her outfit is accurate. i do definitely like her second outfit better as well (it also looks a lot more comfortable. we're under a heat advisory where i am right now and i WISH i had something like that to wear when i eventually have to go out and walk the dog). i don't really have much else to say here, though

finally for Shamane i will fully admit to being woefully out of my depth and being very attuned to looking for First Nations stereotypes owing to that be a particular trope i'm very used to seeing (gods the feather thing happens SO MUCH). that said, i am absolutely kicking myself for not researching things first, i think learning more about the context of his specific design and beliefs makes me come around a lot more positively to some of the aspects of his design -- especially what you mentioned about it being historically accurate, as that's something i did not consider initially and is really cool to hear about wrt what the design process may have been! (also i love his arm design, like, a lot. no idea if connecting it to nazar designs makes sense or not, it does appear that those are almost exclusively blue though maybe in the context of rev19's worldbuilding red eyes would have developed as the "evil eye" instead? idk, but i can probably count on one hand the amount of prosthetic users in gacha games whose missing limbs are actually given thought and treated as aspects of the story rather than just visual flavor.)

in conclusion: yeah, i think after learning more about the context behind these character designs i was definitely a bit harder on Mor Pankh than i needed to be -- relative to other games that take a swing at depicting SWANA and/or Indian cultures i think rev19 is doing way better in that category than most of them. i will say part of why i am so frequently critical of rev19 is that i also love the game a lot -- i don't put much time or effort into critiquing things that are just straight up bad, and if i'm hard on something that's usually because i really want to sink my teeth into it and talk about what works and doesn't work within its story and broader cultural contexts.

(and also -- thank you again for taking the time and thought to send me this! i can't express enough how much i appreciate being able to learn more about the context of a lot of these characters and the story and just, like, talk about it openly. it rocks! thank you!!)

#Anonymous #long post #reverse 1999 #AAAAA I'M SO SORRY I'M LATE. BY LIKE A WEEK. CHEESE LOUISE IT'S BEEN A TIME #seriously though again again thank you. i was way too mean about kanjira in retrospect yikes #like admittedly a lot of this comes from a usamerican reading of these designs and noticing some iffy similarities #so i was definitely not going to get it fully right -- but i would always rather be corrected than let something that looks bad go unnotice #(if that makes like. any sense at all)

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