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queer-ragnelle · 1 year ago

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i’m new to arthuriana but love your posts nonetheless

i am just curious about the many references to gawain sleeping with so many people when, to my understanding, in sir gawain and the green knight he specifically breaks this promiscuous behaviour and makes sure he doesn’t sleep with the wife of the duke

(i apologize if this is a stupid question!)

hello anon!

welcome to arthuriana and thank you so much for the kind words. this is not a stupid question at all! the truth is gawain is nothing if not inconsistent between texts haha. he's different from other knights such as lancelot who pines solely for guinevere across text after text, in that it seems every author wanted to create their own special gal for gawain. he therefore has numerous women attached to him, and when readers try to reconcile those many texts into a single story thread, it gives the impression our mans gawain gets around! (and he does!) i have several examples here to illustrate this so i'll put it below a cut.

for all the textual variance, sir gawain and the green knight is the exception that proves the rule—meaning that it's perhaps the only text in which gawain is abstinent. we know this because one of the five virtues attributed to the five points of his pentacle crest on his shield is chastity.

furthermore, on the wife's second seduction attempt, gawain pleas his own inexperience with "love" (ie: women).

whether or not that's true is up for debate, but it's worth mentioning, as it's a departure from other texts where his virile prowess is well-known, and in the knight of the two swords, he openly boasts about his own attractiveness and popularity. (humble guy, that gawain!)

there are several examples of gawain's reputation with the ladies preceding him and actually benefitting his odds of getting laid. one of my favorites is from lancelot part II in the vulgate. gawain had just cured his brother agravaine of an illness and agravaine's amie basically wingwoman's her sister.

goated of her. so gawain pencils it in on his calendar. later, he locates the castle, sneaks in, and succeeds in bedding the maiden. she's not named here, although malory later refers to her as "the lady of lys," and accredits her as the mother of gawain's three sons, (although the couple never formally wed).

among the strangest of examples is the middle english text the carle of carlisle, in which the carle brings gawain to the bedchamber and orders him to make out with his wife. but things quickly heat up...

so the carle stops gawain from outright cuckholding him, then leads gawain to his daughter's chambers, gives them his blessing, and locks them inside. at the end of the text, gawain marries her.

now i would be remiss not to mention my beloved the wedding of sir gawain and dame ragnelle. i think it's notable that ragnelle specifically asks for gawain by name, much like the lady of lys did (according to her sister and her warm reception of him).

now the conclusion of this poem brings us to another theme of gawain's which ties into his many partners, and that is his consistent subservience to ladies. he breaks the curse on ragnelle by granting her "sovereignty" in the relationship. this seems to be another aspect of character which sets gawain apart from other knights, as this is not a chaste expression of courtly love, but a precursor to fornication, and draws the attention of strong-willed ladies, such as ragnelle, with whom he is "a coward," or according to the translation notes, "submissive."

then again in roman van walewein, he's already famous by the time he meets his ladylove, ysabele, and whilst tied up in her father's prison, he leaves the decision of his own life in her hands.

which then results in their coming together because this is a gawain story and he always gets the girl.

even in the post vulgate, which we can all agree portrays every single character at their absolute worst (and is therefore invalid<3), gawain's choice of words consistently upholds the lady's desires above his own. at first, gawain intended wingman for pelleas by pretending he, pelleas, was dead to begrieve arcade. he discovers instead that she's elated by pelleas's supposed passing, so she and gawain fall in love. but even after admitting his feelings, he still takes great pains to frame the final crossing of that line as her choice, and only relents when she makes her intentions plain.

he might also just like it when women boss him around if his treatment from orgeluse in parzival by wolfram von eschenbach is any indication.

similarly to the knight of two swords, in parzival, gawain is aware of his fame, fosters it, and then employs his orgeluse brain worms as a motivation for sparing lives instead of like...morality.

i think what's particularly interesting about gawain's relationship history is that many of his partners are named, whereas it's pretty common for damsels and maidens in medieval texts to exist without identities of their own. there are so, so many named, interesting, fully developed women linked to gawain, it's actually pretty awesome! here are a few more:

lunette in yvain: knight of the lion by chrétien de troyes...

amurfina in the crown by heinrich von dem türlin...

bloiesine in the 4th perceval continuation by gerbert de montreuil...

marjorie in gawain and marjorie by oscar fay adams (if we extend our search through the 20th century!)...

and on and on forever! so in conclusion, gawain has been pulling bitches for many hundreds of slutty, slutty years, and from what modern retellings i've read, authors have no intention of interrupting this trend. i hope that helps clear things up somewhat. thanks for the ask!

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ladyandthewalrus · 2 years ago

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IDV Characters and Their Birthplaces

A reasonable number of people seem to have liked my previous chart of IDV characters and their social classes/income levels, so I thought I’d whip up another charting where the characters were born.

This chart operates on a combination of canon information and reasonable speculation including historical precedent and additional info from characters’ birthday art and the real people they are based on. It is not meant to crap on headcanons in any way, just chart the likely makeup of the cast as written (also! The United Kingdom and especially England and Scotland have lots of immigrant populations from across the world, but especially other parts of Europe, Asia and Africa).

Feel free to consult the list of everyone’s class backgrounds here, keeping in mind that we are taking for granted travel across the Atlantic was out of reach for members of the lower class and we are assuming that while IDV does have fantastical elements, given the heavy focus on class differences, money (and the need/desire for it) and the desperation created by poverty in many characters’ backstories, it is taking into consideration how expensive it would be for characters to get around. So we see more characters from North America and continental Europe who are from middle and upper classes make it to the manor, with a few exceptions like, Helena.

Also important is that on a grand scale, a lot of the events in IDV intertwine extremely closely. It is a small world full of fuckery, bad science, and occultism that seems to mostly be happening centered in one area, with Oletus Manor, Lakeside, White Sand Street Asylum, the Arms Factory, and Scared Heart Hospital all located within the bounds of one unnamed county/shire in England. Baron DeRoss definitely has an extensive information network that spans continents, but plenty of the characters in the story are locally sourced, as it were.

Let’s get going!

Born in England:

♡Margaretha/Natalie/Natasha: Likely born in England. She was raised in Lakeside Village, which is a stone’s throw from Oletus Manor based on this map from one of the art books. Although here referred to as LakeView, I think it is very fair to assume the name was changed in translation or slightly altered, but is meant to be understood as the same place, as many important in-game locations are in close proximity to each other and the water from Lakeside has unusual properties used in experiments by various parties at other lore-significant locations. Her uncle’s family is poor, so she was probably not born far from Lakeside. In terms of her ethnic background, her deductions mention her family eating borscht, so they probably hail from Eastern Europe originally. Her uncle’s surname, Hayward is English, and her adopted surname Zelle is Dutch and German.

♡Freddy: Freddy was present at Emma/Lisa’s first birthday party, suggesting a long friendship with Leo and having lived in the unnamed shire/town a long time too. He also makes several classist and xenophobic comments throughout the diaries of his manor group and is noted by the experimenters in his recent birthday letter to buy into Victorian England’s stratified class system and contempt for the poor. The Riley surname originates specifically from Yorkshire and Lancashire in England.

♡Memory/ Alice: Born in England to a noble father. Although the accents of the characters as portrayed by voice actors in English are really inconsistent, with the English Emma having an American accent, it is worth noting that both Memory’s narration in the Season 19, Essence 1 trailer, Alice’s words to Orpheus in Time of Reunion, and the off-screen voice of her mother in-game during Time of Reunion all make use of upper-class English accents. The surname DeRoss is an anglicized version of a Dutch surname.

♡Emily/Lydia: Emily is partially based on the English serial killer of infants, Amelia Dyer. She also worked early in her career at several locations on the map attached above, making it likely she was born somewhere not too far away. Her family is middle class, meaning she could reasonably be from anywhere in the United Kingdom as members of the middle class could move around within adjoining countries with relative ease. The surnames Jones and Dyer are both English.

♡Robbie: As an orphan taken to what became White Sand Asylum, he would have been from the surrounding area. His surname White is either English, Scottish, or Irish in origin.

♡Emma/Lisa+Leo: Leo’s ill-fated factory was located in the town directly by Oletus Manor. Given the timeline of events, with him burning the factory down when Emma was 10-11, Emma at least was probably born in this English town. The Beck surname is common in English and Slavic-speaking countries, and Woods is an English surname.

♡William: he is based off the real life Englishman William Ellis who is credited, perhaps erroneously, with creating Rugby, which did at least originate in England in 1845. The surname Ellis is Welsh and English.

♡Kreacher: as an impoverished orphan, Kreacher would not have traveled much, and there is almost no way he was born somewhere other than the contagious United Kingdom in terms of logistics. His surname Pierson is also English.

♡Tracy: If her father Mark’s clock shop being included/ referenced in the Chinatown map is anything to go off of, Tracy was probably born in England, as many major cities in the United Kingdom have Chinatowns but most are in England. Her surname, Reznik is Czech.

♡Grace: She's a foundling that washed into Lakeside, so must have originated in the surrounding area to an extent. Her surname is unknown, both in terms of her birth and adoptive parents.

♡Kurt: Explicitly stated to have been born in Yorkshire, England. Frank is a German surname.

Born in Scotland:

♡Norton: Campbell is one of the most common surnames in Scotland, originating in the borderlands between England and Scotland. Two interesting things of note about the name 1) it means crooked-mouth, and Norton’s official art features him with a half-smile, half-frown, and 2) Clan Campbell is, to this day, not well thought of and considered to be full of violent backstabbers, which is also apt seeing as he is willing to resort to violence and trickery to get ahead in life. Norton’s skin Stray Poet/Troubadour also has him sporting the Clan Campbell Tartan (thank you @tallemy in the IDV lore discord for pointing that out). His birthday art from 2022 also features a map of the Scottish Highlands, and Scotland is known to be rich in mineral wealth, and thus, mining operations.

♡Percy: based on the character of Victor Frankenstein, who while Swiss in the novel, was based on the real-life Scottish scientists Andrew Ure and James Lind. For Percy to be getting corpses from Andrew, who is snatching them from an United Kingdom cemetery, it’s reasonable to think he is in the United Kingdom too, and he is a colleague of Burke, who is has been woking in England for decades..

Born in Wales:

♡Eli: His deductions and letters mention the character of Brooke Rose, a mistranslation of the name Blodeuwedd, a famous character from Welsh mythology, which tends to be fairly obscure. His surname, Clark, is generic and found throughout the United Kingdom.

Born in Ireland:

♡Keigan: The Clerk is partially based on the unpopular Irish judge and politician William Keogh. Again, although the accents employed in video materials are inconsistent, she clearly has an Irish accent in her English character trailer. Her surname Keogh is Irish through and through.

Born somewhere in the United Kingdom or British Isles:

♡Martha: Or at least “Martha” is passing herself off as the British Martha. The ideal of the “angel in the house” and Victorian womanhood Martha Behamfil fought against is inexorably tied to British class and gender values. Behamfil is likely a bastardization of Beham, which is an English surname by way of the Normans.

♡Fiona: Very little is known about Fiona’s background, but her given name is Celtic. The surname Gilman is also English with Norman origins.

♡Melly: She stared as a domestic servant at a manor, likely somewhere in the United Kingdom. As such, she was probably born in the United Kingdom, as the pitifully low wages of housemaids would make international travel legitimately impossible. Her surname before marriage, Ndlovu, suggests her father’s family hails from South Africa or Zimbabwe.

♡ Ann: she comes from a wealthy family that falls within the geographical range of influence of the cat cult. Her family own pastoral land where sheep graze, and sheep are in many ways the stereotypical livestock of the United Kingdom. Her surname is not known.

♡Bane: if he's working as a gamekeeper, he’s likely from the area around Oletus and knows the land well. Perez is a Spanish surname extremely common in the United States and Mexico, but also sometimes in Peru and even France.

♡Mike: A circus foundling and adoptee, he was probably locally sourced by Bernard. Morton is an English and Scottish surname.

♡Emil: Another character who would not have ranged far due to his extreme poverty, who was found near White Sand Asylum in a delirious state. His family surname is unknown, and the name Emil itself is popular broadly across continental Europe, and offers no clues.

♡Violetta: a circus foundling, based on a German performer, Violetta Wagner but probably abandoned somewhere in the United Kingdom unless the Hullabaloo and her prior employer/foster father/owner Max had international reach. The actual historical Violetta had living relatives and traveled with them.

♡Aesop: His given name is Greek (and honestly a very unique choice on the part of his mum). His Once skin previously including the Italian word for shame/disgrace, vergogna, is probably a reference to him going to an elite academy in that timeline, as many upper-class British boy’s schools included Latin, Italian, Greek etc in their curriculums. His letters to his teammates during his manor game are impeccably written, suggesting English is his first language. The surname of his foster father, Carl, is German, but the surnames of his birth parents are unknown.

♡Andrew: Scottish Andrew theory here, and more broadly, Laz/Luz/Lutz Cemetery is within train ride distance from Oletus Manor, making it in England, Scotland or Wales. Given his childhood landlord is buried in that cemetery, he has to have been born in one of these countries too. His German surname, Kreiss, makes plenty of sense, as Germans are one of the largest ethnic groups in the United Kingdom.

♡Orpheus: His parents were park rangers/ groundskeepers employed by the English DeRoss family. We do no know his given name and surname, as Orpheus is a nickname/alias.

♡Ada: Ada and her father are based on the German doctor and scientist Franz Mesmer. It is highly likely Ada was born in England, given her father practiced there, and she came across Emil begging on the street when they were both children in the vicinity of the unarmed town so discussed in this post. The surname Mesmer is German.

♡Murro: A circus foundling and adoptee, he was probably locally sourced by Bernard. Morton is an English and Scottish surname.

♡Luca: 100% ethnically Serbian, based on his being heavily based on Nikola Tesla, and his favorite dish, ajvar, coming from the Balkans. Active in the United Kingdom during his time working with Alva, who in turn knew his father as a young man, since the cat cult is linked to the events around the manor, Lakeside, and Golden Cave, all of which are in England. His surname, which is translated as Balsa but probably meant to be Balzer or Balzac, is Austrian.

♡Weepy/Joker: another circus foundling. He has no known surname and no proper first name either.

♡Alva: based on Thomas Alva Edison, an American with Dutch heritage. Alva and Herman, and then Luca, were working on their invention somewhere in the United Kingdom given that the cat cult got their hands so easily on Alva’s corpse. Lorenz is a German, Dutch and Spanish surname.

♡Will Brothers: orphans and circus foundlings. Their surname is German, and they don't possess given first names.

♡Luchino: fluent enough in English to conduct lectures at a college in England, and able to get to the manor by train. The surname Diruse is a nonsense name like Behamfil, but is probably a corruption of DeRossi, which, like his given name, is Italian. It is a given thing in IDV that to be Italian is to be cursed by a supernatural entity.

♡Burke: I think I’ve heard speculation that Burke is based on the Canadian architect Edmund Burke, but there aren’t many definitive pieces of evidence pointing to this besides the name Burke and a connection with architecture; the connection is a lot weaker than with other characters inspires by real people. Lapadura is allegedly (?) Sicilian, but a very rare surname.

♡Victor: His family seems to have been poor based on his dialogue in the Autumn Letter event. His favorite dish (and Luchino’s too) is Steak Diane, which was invented in London anachronistically in the 1930s. Grantz is a German surname

♡Edgar: One of the few characters I can only tentatively guess about, falling into this category simply because so many of the characters are British. One of the artists Edgar is based on, Edouard Manet, was French. The surname Valden is apparently Russian, though very rare. Perhaps, perhaps, he is indeed French, and as none of the other participants of his game (José, Vera, Kevin, and Patricia) are British, they’d all be outsiders, in a sense.

♡Lucky: he is just some poor guy dressed like a 90′s kids sitcom character. I don't know. Also probably from Britain because almost everyone is.

♡BonBon: honorary inclusion. He is whatever his dad Burke is. A little Sicilian-British robot?

♡Galatea: Galatea is partially based on Camille Claudel, who was French, but she was likely born in Britain. She and her family are in the same social circles as the British Baron DeRoss, and she is mentioned to be considering traveling to Florence and Paris, which would be viable given her family’s wealth and not worthy of note if she did live in France already.

Born in Belgium:

♡Servais: Based on the real magician Servais LeRoy, who did spend a good part of his career in Britain. LeRoy is a surname specifically from northern France.

Born in Spain:

♡José Baden: He has a surpassingly common Spanish name and his favorite food is Paella. His family’s shipping activities saw them sailing frequently through the Mediterranean Sea. The surname Baden has Danish origins.

Born in Germany:

♡Jack: IDV’s version of Jack is heavily based on one of the candidates for Jack the Ripper’s identity, the artist Walter Sickert, who was born in Germany but grew up in England from the age of 8 onwards. Sickert is a fairly uncommon German surname.

Born in Austria:

♡Frederick: A HUGE number of composers and musicians were active in Austria, and specifically Vienna, in the 19th century. Frederick is mentioned in his deceptions as departing from Vienna for Paris, making it likely he and his family lived there, given his father was a famous musician. Many of them were from Polish or Hungarian families. Kreiberg appears to be German, as there’s a very similar German surname Kreisberg.

♡Marie Antoinette/Maria Antonia/Mary: This applies more to the historical Marie, as canon material suggests Hunter Mary is a woman experiencing delusions of being Marie Antoinette. Although Queen of France, she was born in Austria and lived there for the first 14 years of her life.

Born in France:

♡Joseph: fled France with his family. Joseph is confirmed to be largely based on the French inventor Joseph Nicéphore Niépce, who even had a brother named Claude. Desauliners is a French surname that is much more common in Canada than France.

♡Vera/Chloe: Vera hails from the French town of Grasse, a hotspot in the perfume industry. Nair is apparently (?) a Scottish surname, of all things.

♡Philippe: he is based on Philippe Curtis, a surgeon and wax artist. In his debut trailer, the map projected behind his sister shows his voyage beginning in what is either Eastern France or the Western edge of Switzerland. Surname unknown.

Born in Italy:

♡Antonio: he is based on the Italian violinist Niccolò Paganini. A celebrity musician would be internationally mobile and welcome at courts across Europe. His 2022 letter speaks of his lover, Andrea, who also has an Italian given name. His actual surname is unknown, as he is never referred to as Paganini in canon materials.

Born in Czechoslovakia/ The Czech Republic:

♡Annie: her mother was a British socialite, and her father a Czech painter. Her favoring of unconventional traditional dress despite being part of the upper class indicates she feels closer to her Czech, rather than British heritage, and as such likely grew up in proximity to other ethnically Czech people, as I doubt she would have access to that side of her culture as much had she grown up in the United Kingdom. Her 2022 birthday letter also lists her inheritance from her mother in British pounds, which would be odd to do when writing to someone who was also in Britain, as it could be assumed that was the currency in question. Her favorite food is Czech sausage. Lester is an English, not Czech surname, and it’s possible Annie identifies by her mother’s maiden name as a fuck you to her dreadful father.

Born in the United States:

♡Helena Adams: Based on the American activist and scholar Helen Keller. Her international travel was likely facilitated by Sullivan, as her family is not wealthy. The Adams surname is Scottish and English.

♡Patricia: abandoned as a baby in New Orleans, Patricia was technically born at sea and could count as being from Haiti as much as the United States. She is very loosely inspired by Voodoo practitioner and herbalist Marie Laveau, who was of French, Black and Native American heritage. The surname she shares with her adoptive mother, Dorval, is French.

♡Kevin: his friend childhood Angelica was a member of the Great Sioux Nation, who since the 19th century have lived for the most part in the Midwestern states of North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana and Nebraska. His Spanish surname indicates Spanish and possibly Mexican heritage as well, given many cowboys and farmers were mestizo.

♡Demi: Demi’s birthday materials include a ferry ticket for a vessel traveling from New York, suggesting she lives in the United States. In terms of gameplay, she doesn't give drinks to underage characters due to strict censorship, but as a lore explanation, it would make sense that (although anachronistic by a good few decades) a European would not have any problem with giving someone under the age of 21 alcohol, but an American character may be stricter about drinking age. The surname Bourbon is French.

Born in India:

♡Ganji: explicitly confirmed to have been born in India. The Gupta surname comes from Northern India.

Born in Nepal:

♡Naib: again, explicitly confirmed. The great question is how a mercenary from the Himalayas wound up in England carrying out assassinations. We only know him by his alias, and have no idea what his given and family names might be.

Born in China:

♡ Shiyi/Yao: the daughter of a Chinese noble. Given that Shiyi came to Oletus to find her partner, Si, I also wonder how Si wound up involved in the dealings of an English manor in the first place and how the pair came to Baron DeRoss’ attention given the vast distance. The Xiao surname is ancient, originating between 770 to 476 BC, and is very common today in China.

♡ Bi’an + Wujiu: based on Heibai Wuchang, Chinese folk deities. Their in-game lore has them as two former government officers. Fan is a very common surname in China and Vietnam, and Xie ie even more common.

Born in Japan:

♡Michiko: Born in Japan, and moved to England with Miles Donnelly. His surname is Irish, but given that Michiko’s corpse was disposed of by the Female Dancer’s uncle Eugene Hayward at Lakeside, she must have lived nearby with Miles.

🌙🌙They Came from Space 🌙🌙

♡Yidhra: an Outer God, a being in the Lovecraftian mythos defined as originating from outside our solar system. She has been on earth a long, long time, however.

♡Hastur: a Great Old One, a deity that is based on Earth but, according to his original lore, has been active on other plantets, as the work he is most closely associated with, the King in Yellow, features mentions of the city Carcosa, an extraterrestrial location associated with Hastur.

TLDR: almost everything is happening in one little area! Almost all of these people got rained on a lot and are serious about tea time. I regret using the heart symbol as a bullet point because truly there are some characters on this list I would not piss on if they were on fire, but I value aesthetic consistency and there are a few individuals on this list I would cook a four-course meal for (It’s Andrew. I want to feed him. I want him to eat a lot and then take a really quality nap). I hope all my links work. Thank you for taking the time to read this far. ♡♡♡

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