#acosf made me hate nesta even more

[batboys-cumdumpster]

People who say Elain is "as bad" as Nesta (usually Nesta stans) are ridiculous and will always be the type to downplay abusers actions.

Elain was quiet and complacent but she never once said or did anything as nasty as Nesta said and did to Feyre (or their peers). Elain even had the guts to stand up to Nesta and when that happened Nesta lashed out at her. Why? Because Nesta only likes people she can manipulate and keep as followers who worship her and follow her lead.

[yazthebookish]

Maybe I'll spoil you guys and talk about Gwynriel and ACOTAR5 and anything related to it overall. I recently finished my HOFAS reread and have some fresh thoughts. I'll let my thoughts guide me and some of these points I've already addressed in my insta stories yesterday. I just rather share a lengthy post here since I'll only tag under #gwynriel.

I often see arguments about how Gwyn and Azriel can't move the plot forward because the series is centered on the Archeron sisters.

First, that's not true because Sarah is following what she called "a traditional romance route". She's following the same patterns of Nalini Singh, Kresley Cole, and Lisa Kleypas where they publish multiple books in the same series following different couples.

This is fitting for a series like ACOTAR because it's romance-centered. And Sarah have already said that each couple is getting one book and there will likely be more books beyond ACOTAR6.

Saying that doesn't dismiss the importance of the sisters to the story, Feyre already has a trilogy centered on her. The spin-off just follows different characters including the sisters.

I won't try hard to convince people on this because I've already posted almost everything Sarah said about the spin-off series and what's it's about. So if the next book is not centered on an Archeron sister, that's for Sarah to bamboozle the fandom with.

One thing that stuck out to me is when I compared the ending of ACOSF with the scene of Bryce giving Nesta Gwydion and seeming like she left Nesta with a new quest.

First, this is what the text says, and this is Chapter 80, the very last chapter in ACOSF:

Succeeding in the Blood Rite didn't mean the training stopped. No, after she and her friends told Cassian and Azriel most of the details of their ordeal, the two commanders had compiled a long list of mistakes that the three of them had made that needed to be corrected, and the others wanted to learn from them, too. So they would keep training, until they were all well and truly Valkyries. Gwyn, despite the Rite, had returned to living in the library.

1. The Valkyries are not yet a unit.

2. SJM only and specifically highlighted that Gwyn, despite the Rite, returned to living in the library. It was like "hey, remember all the talk Gwyn did about wanting to leave the library after two years? Yeah that's on hold a bit but keep that in mind". She didnt even add Emerie or the other priestesses to that sentence.

With Nesta being left with Gwydion to find out why the 8-pointed star was tattooed on her, I don't think the next book will start with "hey Elain take this sword and deal with it". Who are Nesta's main companions now? Gwyn and Emerie.

I'll be back to the Valkyries but let's just talk about Azriel for a bit.

It is so painfully obvious to me that Azriel is being handed the Illyrian plot on a golden platter. How big or small of a plot it is depends on SJM, but it's important based on the fact that she fleshed out the Illyrian's origins and tied them to the crossover AND making Truth-teller the knife of Enalius.

That is a big deal for an Illyrian like Azriel.

And I quote my friend Lacie on this, it is very poetic for Azriel to be the owner of the knife that originally belonged to the person who freed his own people from the Daglan's clutches, perhaps because he saw his people are more than just slaves to the Daglan—how powerful would it be for Azriel, who loathes his own people, to parallel Enalius.

And for years some people were against Azriel dealing with this plot because he shouldn't make peace with his "abusers", its true his own family and some Illyrians failed him but he is condemning an entire population. Good people like Emerie and Balthazar. Even Rhys's mother, who had valid reasons to hate her people especially as a female, still made sure to make Rhysand connect with his Illyrian heritage and he even goes on to say that his mother didn't forget what they did to her but still loved her people.

If both Cassian and Rhysand (and by extension the author) continue to flag Azriel's hatred of the Illyrians as an issue—then it is a damn big issue for it to be addressed repeatedly.

Okay so to address my final point about Gwyn and Azriel and how they can move the plot forward.

Now I didn't detail out much about what the next book will deal with because that's another post (and I already have a post on that).

All of our theories and predictions are based on information that is available to us. Saying Azriel and Gwyn cannot move the plot forward does not make any sense because the central plot is tied to multiple characters, Archeron or not.

If SJM wants to make a character move the next book's plot forward, she can do it because she's in control of the story. She's in control of the narrative. She's in control of the characters.

The characters are puppets and this is an unfinished story. If some characters would add more value and make for a more interesting story before the others, she can decide on that. If she wants to make Eris the protagonist of the next book, she can easily do that whether the fandom wants it or not.

Let me give you an example of minor characters that pushed the plot forward and became main characters: Yrene Towers and the Hind. These kind of arguments could've been used for them in HOEAB or HOSAB and Pre-TOD. Before HOSAB/HOFAS and TOD, could we have predicted that they would have played a crucial role before those books? Not likely because they had minimal appearances and were not part of the main cast. This is what I'm talking about.

You can't know how a character will contribute to a story until you see how it all unfolds. We can make guesses on the information we have which is why I believe three characters are likely to join the main cast: Gwyn, Emerie, and Eris.

Why is it so easy to accept that Emerie might be sharing a book with an original character like Mor but it's hard to comprehend the fact that Gwyn could also share a book with Azriel? Because Emerie showed up in ACOFAS? To me that's not really a strong argument based on Sarah's writing and what we have in the books, she doesn't really pick based on who showed up the earliest. Here's a good example: Hypaxia, who showed up earlier, didn't even get her own chapters but the Hind did.

And there's one argument I recall about how I need to rely on Nesta to have a plot focused on Gwyn or the Valkyries in the next book. Nesta's arc is clearly not over based on HOFAS, but does that mean she's getting a POV? Not necessarily. I don't think she is. Gwyn is the perfect candidate for us to see what's going on with Nesta post-HOFAS and how they all deal with the Valkyries and whatever Sarah will set up with them.

There is this whole Valkyrie/Illyrian conflict that could be triggered as a result of the Blood Rite, with Ramiel definitely being an important location to explore in the next book, we also have the Pegasi and the Prison and the implications of the crossover. It makes sense to have an Illyrian and a Valkyrie POV to deal with some plots in the next book.

"Gwyn contributes to nothing" we can't know until the book is out. How sure are we that maybe SJM won't connect her to the crossover by making her mysterious father a Worldwalker? Or Prince of Hel? Or an Asteri? Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong.

"But Koschei! And the Human Queens!" Koschei will always be a background player pulling on the strings until the final book as it's obvious he is the big bad in the series, unless someone even worse is revealed. But no one is dismissing Koschei or the Human Queens messing around.

Literally what's the point of the story or the fun elements of surprises or plot twists if you need Sarah to list down everything that the next books will deal with. That's not how a story develops to me. I don't need to know everything in advance to just know how it will go. That's like knowing spoilers early on and checking off with each book what happened and what didn't happen. I feel like it's close to how a lot of readers were disappointed with not having enough ACOTAR in HOFAS, because Sarah implied half of the book would be set in Prythian. So by the time the book came out and it wasn't that, people were vocal about it.

In my opinion, SJM set a good foundation for Gwyn's arc to build up on in ACOSF and her arc is not over. We won't get mentions of her still carrying the guilt of her sister's death or not leaving the library after she said she's sick of being there for two years without us seeing resolution for that. She wouldn't be in Azriel's bonus chapter if she is not involved with him.

To conclude, my reread still affirms to me that the next book with an Azriel/Gwyn book. Azriel is clearly being set in the forefront.

[thinkinthoughtsalot]

I'm so incredibly exhausted with the narrative that if you question Gwyn as a character it's because you have an agenda against her. That if you think she's suspicious it's because she threatens your ship.

Listen. I enjoyed Gwyn and Emerie in Silver Flames. I liked them both as friends for Nesta. Emerie resonated with me a little more than Gwyn, but I still found Gwyn to be an adorable and fun character. Her refusing to leave Nesta in the Blood Rite was one of the most heart wrenching moments of the entire book and had me in tears.

Gwyn is, however, sus af. From her singing triggering Nesta to talk about and have visions of the Dread Trove (she definitely doesn't have singing related powers), to her excelling at training being explained away as pliant bones (because she's never physically trained before, right?), to faintly glowing when she sings (light and singing, nothing odd there), to her bringing up Truth Teller and somehow knowing it was used to kill Hybern (how does she know this? Why do she and Emerie use almost identical wording when mentioning Hybern's death, but only Gwyn mentions the Shadowsinger's knife?), to feeling unworthy of wearing the invoking stone (why? Because she failed to save her sister while outnumbered and brutalized, even though she successfully saved a bunch of children? I don't want to imply that her feelings about her own grief and trauma are wrong in any way, but is it just guilt over her twin or something more?), to her saying that if Nesta and Emerie knew everything they'd think differently of her (what are you hiding Gwyn? What could make your deeply traumatized closest friends think less of you?), to Nesta noting she has a secret beneath her pretty face (what secret? Her nymph heritage? That's not a secret, she's open about it), to the surprising authority in her voice and the way she made Nesta's powers grumble.

And this is all in the main text of ACOSF, completely excluding the Azriel bonus chapter. These are all things that I noted on my first read. There was nothing in the book that made me think "romance" or "mates" or "threat to my ship" in the book, but there was a whole lot of weirdness around Gwyn. In the same book where we're introduced to lightsingers. These are things that all set off alarm bells for me before I even knew GA was a ship.

It's not an agenda against Gwyn or a petty reaction to a crackship. It's all right there in canon, no twisting of the text required. Az's bonus chapter is just confirmation of what we already knew from the book - Az and Elain have feelings for each other that are not platonic, and Gwyn has something going on with her singing and luring.

That's it. No hate, no agenda, no threat to Elriel.

[wingsdippedingold]

The thing that always gets me about SJM is that she says she loves Nesta so much, but at every point Nesta is degraded or self-hating.

The way Nesta is written and people react to her, it’s pretty clear that she’s not actually a bitch but just guarded and cautious of an unfamiliar/ hostile environment.

SJM often writes scenes like this (screenshot stolen from @theladyofbloodshed )

In this Nesta’s in an odd position, where she’s portrayed as the victim of Mor’s ire. However, the characters that regularly antognize Nesta (Amren, Rhysand, Mor, etc.) are never acknowledged to be antagonistic towards her, only that Nesta herself is antagonized. Nesta’s character exists in a weird limbo where she’s meant to be a a wrongfully hated character to the reader, but the people who do wrong her are also supposed to be in the right.

SJM wants to write Nesta to be the underdog mc who defies her haters and becomes someone beloved, but the issue is she’s hated by characters the narrative wants you to also love, and whom Sarah can not bring herself to let ever be in the wrong, because then it would break the idea that they’re infallible and make the rest of their faults also up for criticism.

At every point where she’s put in a bad position, it’s acknowledged that the blame is not hers, but the narrative doesn’t place the blame anywhere else, essentially making what happened entirely a product of Nesta and no other character’s actions. We see how dreadful Nesta feels in ACOSF, much of it at the hands of the ic, and the narrative wants us to sympathize and understand her situation, but with no outlet to fault her situation towards the ic and no attempt to make it known that these feelings that are a product of the ic’s actions are directly a product of the ic.

SJM also writes Nesta to be one of the only characters who self-reflect on their actions and find fault within themselves. None of the ic ever introspect on their actions and effect on other courts and people, contributing to Nesta being the wrong ones and them being correct, simply because the narrative has not made the effort to explore wether or not they’re wrong, whereas it has with Nesta. Nesta’s actions were explored and allowed to be negative because it is what allows her to change her mind, but because she’s the only one changing her mind, she only becomes more and more fitting of the ic’s standards and the series’s idea of moral correctness.

The inverse is also an issue because Sarah writes the ic to be “morally gray”, which grants them the excuse of “you can’t expect them to always be perfect/good, they’re supposed to be morally gray” but the issue with that notion and archetype in this case is that the never face any repercussions or criticism by the narrative, but rather the people opposing them, effectively establishing them as the moral high ground. You cannot defend them as “morally gray” when the narrative has done nothing more than to portray them as always in the correct even in their “morally gray actions.” Discussing their character in that way while not acknowledging how the narrative treats them absolves them of their own faults and is a slippery slope when analyzing the characters in the story.

This is one of the reasons I think so many people find it hard to like Nesta or actually sympathize with her like SJM wants; because their favorite character hates Nesta, though acknowledged to be unjustly, the character themself is not acknowledged to be unjust, therefore portraying their actions to be correct.

This was written really quickly and I just woke up from a nap, but if anyone else wants to discuss this topic, I’d love to see it!

[gwandas]

Nesta saying Cassian is good and that’s why she doesn’t deserve him… What is she even talking about? Literally what has he done throughout this series for her to think so highly of him?

Him wiping away her tears and promising to protect her and her people in ACOMAF? Empty words seeing as how he and the rest of the IC abandon her and Elain to get kidnapped and tossed in the Cauldron. Like one of y’all couldn’t guard them? And then they all have the audacity to hate her for being angry about it.

Threatening to kill Tomas? More empty words, why does he deserve points for merely offering to off some guy? Especially when she didn’t even want him to do that…?

Fight in a war? That’s just him doing his job baby! I didn’t know everyone that’s ever fought in a war was automatically a good person!

The little speech everyone sucks his dick over in ACOWAR? That was HER fucking moment and it pisses me off every day that he is the focus of it. He wouldn’t even have been in a position to say those words to her if SHE hadn’t offered sacrifice herself in the first place.

He saved her in the library in ACOWAR I guess? He stabbed himself instead of her while under Briallyn’s control but I’m still not moved considering he knew he’d be FINE because of his armor. He defends her a few times to his family, sure, but none of those times were as powerful as when she defended him during the High Lord meeting in ACOWAR or against Eris in ACOSF.

So… all this to say he has not done enough for her to deserve the way she sees him. What’s worse is that when she tells him that:

“You are good, Cassian. And you are brave, and brilliant, and kind. I could kill anyone who has ever made you feel less than that—less than what you are. And I know I’m a part of that group, and I hate it… You are everything I have never been, and will never be good enough for. Your friends know it, and I have carried it around with me all this time—that I do not deserve you.”

The fury slid from his face.

He says NOTHING to contradict the idea that SHE is the one who doesn’t deserve HIM. He would LITERALLY be DEAD if not for her while she’s lucky that she ISN’T dead despite everything that’s happened. Instead, he’s no longer angry because he’s finally getting what he wants—all that matters is that he can use that self-hatred to get her to work as hard as she can to finally “deserve” his love.

[washmchineheart]

things about the intervention talk in acosf that pissed me off (no particular order):

amren lying about the laws so nesta feels that she has no choice but to leave to HoW

feyre getting offended that nesta doesn’t want to live with them when 1) her mate hates nesta 2) she doesn’t even have paintings of her but does of their negligent father

feyre telling nesta she will tie her up and drag her to HoW and not even thinking about how that is exactly what happened to her the night nesta was made

rhysand just fucking destroying her building like she’s the only one that lives there (she’s not) and feyre acting like it was such a good act because it was for the “refugees from the war” (they wouldn’t care that much otherwise)

and just that the whole thing was more about feyre and saving her feelings so she doesn’t feel like she failed her sister than…nesta. the girl that actually needed help

[gabilina]

People say that Chaol was the one who loved the idea of Celaena/Aelin and that he hated her for who she truly was, but what they fail to realise is that:

Chaol didn't knew that Celaena Sardothien was Aelin Ashryver Galathynius.

He loved the parts she SHOWED HIM and ALLOWED HIM to know

It's not his fault that she had her own secrets

Chaol tecnically didn't get a chance to love all of her, considering that when she was away, she met Rowan, her mate (I know that Rowan waited and gave Aelin time to talk with Chaol, but still…it was shitty move considering she made him promise that she would always pick him)

He still wanted to be with her after finding out that she was fae (CoM), she was the one that said no

On the other hand, SJM fandom adore Cassian even though, he was the one who (I believe) loved the idea of Nesta and never the real her. Cassian in ACOSF, was never positive towards Nesta. He was much more positive about the others than her. When she spoke against Rhysand he didn't do anything, which leads me to thinking that if maybe Nesta was worshipping Rhys like the members of the IC and was more of a fusion of Mor + Cassian's illyrian lover, he wouldn't have problem with her.

What do you think?

[mycadences]

Elain: I am not a child to be fought over. (Chapter 21 of ACOSF, Azriel was present when she said that and HE HEARD IT)

Azriel: (In an arrogant tone) I'll defeat him [Lucien] with little effort. (Azriel's ACOSF bonus chapter, after Elain said what she said, and referring to the Blood Duel)

(Here Elriels might bring up "but Lucien asked if Elain was worth fighting for!" but the difference is 1. Lucien had only met Elain once at that time (it was during ACOWAR) 2. he didn't know anything about her 3. she hadn't said the line I'm referring to 4. he didn't overhear the line I'm referring to 5. "fighting for" has a slightly different connotation from "fighting over".)

So it IS canon that Elain would hate the Blood Duel and would have a problem with Azriel killing Lucien... while Azriel doesn't. In ACOWAR, Nesta and Feyre were worried about Lucien going off to find Vassa in case harm befell him.

This was what Feyre thought: Even Nesta seemed relatively concerned. Not for him, no doubt, but the fact that if he were hurt, or killed … What would it do to Elain? The severing of the mating bond … I shut out the thought of what it’d do to me.

But Azriel didn't think of how devastating it would be for Elain if her mate were to die. No, in fact, he didn't think much of her "beyond the fantasies he pleasured himself to".

Wow. How romantic. If this is the "canon" that Elriels are so proud of, then I'm honestly glad that it wasn't written about my ship.

Also look at this scene:

Elain: You do not decide what I can and cannot do, Nesta. // Then I will find it [the Dread Trove]. // You cannot resent my decision to lead a small, quiet life while also refusing to let me do anything greater. (This is also from Chapter 21 of ACOSF, and yes Azriel was present to hear it. Notice how the wording focused on Elain's agency, on her choice, on people making decisions for her.)

Azriel: (In response to Amren's suggestion that they let Elain track the Trove) There is an innate darkness to the Dread Trove that Elain should not be exposed to. (Chapter 29 of ACOSF)

Once again, he was doing something that Elain had explicitly mentioned she disliked, something that he KNEW because he HEARD IT. Despite hearing that Elain didn't like Nesta making the choice for her (not to scry for the Trove), Azriel STILL chose to throw in his unsolicited two cents and was essentially robbing her of her free will.

Compare this to when Gwyn got taken to the Blood Rite along with Emerie and Nesta.

Cassian: If I interfere, we’re both dead. And even if I did, Nesta would kill me if I jumped in to save her. She’d never forgive me for it. \\ And even if the laws had allowed it, he would never take that away from her: the chance to save herself.

Azriel: You—we—trained them well, Cassian. Trust in that. It’s all we can do.

Both Cassian and Azriel recognized the skills and abilities of the Valkyries. They trusted them to survive. And Cassian himself said that he wouldn't step in, NOT because he didn't care about Nesta, but he knew she would hate it (that he made the call for her) and that he was confident in her strength to overcome the Blood Rite. And they're mates.

(^ Those who say "Azriel and Gwyn cannot be mates because he didn't save her from the Blood Rite" must not have read SF at all lol. But anyway I digress.)

Azriel's line of thinking was similar to Cassian in that he believed in the Valkyries, and that's more than I can ever say about his faith in Elain. Or lack thereof.

Speaking of faith in Elain, you know who has it, though?

Lucien.

(I swear he's the solution to every Elain puzzle. He's linked to Papa Archeron whose death Elain was implied to feel guilty about, he's linked to the Courts that Elain would thrive in (Spring and Day) and he's linked to the central conflict in Elain's personal arc (their mating bond).)

He literally went to the Mortal Lands to find Vassa because Elain had a vision about it. THAT, is an example of trust. The only other person to argue for Elain's visions was Mor, and Cassian was busy rebuffing her while Azriel "looked inclined to agree [with Cassian, not Elain]". Lucien went on a possibly dangerous wild goose chase all because of his trust in Elain's visions -- in his mate's visions.

Finally, this is not a hate post against Azriel (in case it reads like one). I love him, but somehow when he's around Elain they give me Tamlin/Feyre vibes, which is why I believe SJM is actually intentionally dropping hints that their relationship won't work out. Already we see how toxic it is. I adore his interactions with Nesta, Feyre and of course our lovely Valkyrie-priestess, Gwyn ;)

[stargirlfeyre]

I don’t care how much their fans try to say otherwise. The Valkyries winning the rite was unrealistic.

• “Y’all say they only won with the power of friendship but the BatBoys did too”…the Batboys were also trained warriors from childhood that had been preparing for the rite since they walked into those camps. Their situation can’t be compared to the Valkyries because like most Illyrians they had years of preparation built up for this on top of them “having the power of friendship”. They did not win simply because they relied on one another but because they were also trained specifically for this.

• “But Feyre won against the Wyrm and y’all didn’t say that was unrealistic” Feyre like the Batboys used her years of preparation as a huntress to kill the Wyrm. She like them used her prior knowledge to win. That trial was specifically chosen for her because Amarantha knew that she was a huntress and wanted her to hunt the Wyrm. Which she did. She did not fight it head on but rather outsmarted it. The Valkyries fought Illyrian warriors with years of training. “But the Valkyries were trained by the most powerful warriors in Prythian” correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Cassian also spend time training Illyrians at the camps? So those warriors were also trained by the most powerful of them😭.

• “Y’all are just misogynists who hate seeing women overpower men” Nah. Valkyrie fans *cough Nesta fans cough* just like to come for every other woman and their achievements in these books. You can’t be trying to devalue these women and everything that they’ve overcome when you stan people who have the biggest plot armor. You’re just getting a taste of your own medicine.

• “The Valkyries won because the Illyrians were too busy hunting one another instead of focused on winning” Sorry but you’re never going to make me believe that every Illyrian in the rite was just focused on these women. You think every single one was focused on killing them over having eternal glory and status? The rite is one of the most (if not the most) sacred Illyrian traditions. I can guarantee you that a lot of them went into it wanting to win and not worrying about 3 random women. The Illyrian they met in the cave proved that there were people not worried about killing them.

Lastly if Sjm wanted to make them winning look more realistic then she should have lowered the stakes. She shouldn’t have made it this hard competition that only 12 (?) people have won in the entire history of Illyria if she was going to have 3 people with little to no knowledge about it win. This just proves that she was winging Acosf and not much of it was planned out the way a book as long as that requires. It’s not even just the fighting. They had no wilderness training. Not only were they fighting people with years (maybe even centuries) of training on them. They survived a week in the woods when none of them were prepared for that.

I’m sorry but I’m just not going to believe this. Get mad at me for saying it all you want but it was not realistic. “But this is fantasy it’s not supposed to be realistic” — same group of people that calls Rhys a p*do for his age difference with Feyre and comes for Feyre’s role as High Lady. You only want realism when it benefits you.

[acotar-taylorsversion]

Thoughts and Takes As I Re-Read the ACOTAR Series

This is extremely long and I have been typing it for weeks now. These are just my thoughts and I am typing them as I go. If you read it, I hope you enjoy it and maybe we can agree on most things. I would really love to hear everyone else's thoughts, too! 🙂

I don't feel like people blame papa archeron nearly as much as they should. It should not have been any of the sisters' responsibility to do what Feyre did. And after reading Nesta's POV, I don't blame Nesta for being so cold and hateful towards her father.

Lucien annoyed me so much in ACOTAR so much so that it was hard to like him in ACOMAF but I really tried to like him and give him a chance when Sarah made him Elain's mate and I realized that he could have a big role in ACOWAR.

I believe Tamlin had his redemption arc in ACOWAR when he saved Feyre and Az when they were rescuing Elain and then again when he saved Rhys. But I don't think Sarah will explore his story and she might be keeping him alive right now so that he can die at the right time.

After what Tamlin did to her and then allying with Hybern, I don't blame Feyre for ruining his court. He deserved it.

I don't think Ianthe suffered enough and I think that Nesta or Elain should have been the ones to have killed her.

Elain and Az were obvious to me in ACOMAF, just like Nesta and Cassian were and I was truly truly shocked when sarah made Lucien Elain's mate. I believe that there is so much more to that night than we know about and we'll learn about it when we get to Elain & Az's POVs. I believe that the bloodbane in Az's blood was killing him and nullified any bond that could have been there even before Elain was turned. Az was shot with the arrow before they went up to the throne room and that is why Lucien showed signs of mate behavior once Elain showed up. I believe the cauldron was wrong.

That being said, I tried to give Lucien a chance in ACOWAR and he just gave me the ick when talking about Elain. It didn't feel right to hear him say that he wanted to "see if she was worth it." Like she should already be worth it. Don't hesitate. I just did not see it at all.

I think that LoA will be the one to kill Beron. Don't know why, but I just feel that she will lose it and run to Helion.

Sarah had every opportunity to set Elucien up and she didn't. I believe she set them up for failure from the get-go. She instead focused on Elain and Az. I could do an entirely separate post about Elain, Lucien, and Az.

I believe Mor and Eris are mates, especially after what was said in ACOSF. I believe that he knows that she prefers females and wanted to save her from a loveless, unsatisfying marriage. I do think that he handled it wrong. Like that whole situation could have been handled so much better.

I think the whole Mor, Az, and Cassian situation was extremely weird. And now that Cassian is with Nesta and Az could possibly be with Elain, maybe Mor can finally move on and be free and not hide anything anymore. I wish that Mor would have talked to Nesta in ACOSF and explained and apologized for everything. Maybe she'll sit both the sisters down and talk about it one day.

I think Amren and Varian are cute together, but I think Amren should have stayed dead. Sarah is notorious for killing and then unkilling her characters and I think that gets old. I believe that sarah brought her back as a way to keep the summer court involved with the night court and to have a "know it all" character.

I think that Feyre and Rhys have a true, soul mate, true love, fairytale mating bond and I think Nesta and Cassian have a more realistic one. Feyre and Rhys fell in love before the bond was accepted and Nesta and Cassian were just beginning to fall in love before the bond was accepted. Lust and attraction and the pull of the bond is what truly brought them together but they quickly fell in love with each other.

I hate all the hate that Nessian is getting. People who say that Nesta should get with Eris literally make me sick and I want to throw ACOSF at them. They obviously need a to read it again. People need to realize that Nesta was in the wrong in HOFAS and Rhys had every right to freak out like he did and Nesta needed to be yelled at for that. I don't blame Cassian for not stepping in. And people forget how sarcastic Nesta is and they actually take her seriously when she said that Rhys debated executing her. Like do yall really think Cassian and Feyre would allow that or that Rhys would do that to his brother and his mate?? Like come on now.

Speaking of Rhys, I don't think he was wrong for keeping the danger of feyre's pregnancy from her. As a mother of 3 myself, I would be terrified every single day if I knew that my pregnancy could end with the death of myself and/or my baby. Like I would not want to know. Pregnancy is stressful enough as it is, even with healthy ones. And this is why I don't think he was wrong for freaking out on Nesta. I mean, he almost lost his mate, his son, and his life like what, 6 months before that? Like I can't imagine how scared Rhys is every day knowing that he almost lost everything and then Nesta gave a STRANGER a MADE OBJECT from the trove and could have LOST IT to the ASTERI who could have come to their world and DESTROYED them all. GIVE RHYS A BREAK YOU GUYS!!!!! I love Nesta, love her to death, but she was wrong for that.

I have my thoughts on Gwyn. I think she's a lightsinger. I think that is what Az's shadows react to, just like Nesta reacts to her. I don't think her and Az are mates. I don't think she's attracted to Az at all. I think she wants to prove herself to him because he did see her on the most traumatic night of her life. I think she wants to prove to him and everyone around her that she is and can be strong. That's it. There is nothing more to her and Az other than trainer and trainee. I also think that Merrill is the one manipulating everything and everyone, including Gwyn who might not know that she's a lightsinger. I think Merrill is working with Koschei.

Even after all the books, I still believe that Elriel will happen. There's just too many canon moments for me to ignore to see the possibility of Elucien. I only say elucien because gwynriel isn't a canon couple. They are not canon at all. The only thing that elucien has going for them is their bond.

I think Lucien will reject the bond for Elain. Lucien isn't a bad guy. I don't think he'll fight for Elain when he knows that she does not want him or their bond. He won't let Elain become his mother. I think he will find happiness with Vassa and they will be like Elide and Lorcan.

I believe people who support elucien only care about Lucien. I mean, how could you think that Elain wants to be with him after reading the books?

Based on the story of Koschei, it's not crazy to assume it will be 3 sisters and 3 brothers. Sarah is a very predictable writer and this is what most of the fandom has expected since ACOMAF and Koschei being the last big bad confirms that. Especially when you add in Vassa and Lucien into the mix. Just read the story of Koschei and tell me I'm wrong.

I believe that Az is experiencing the effects of a mating bond with Elain. He acts more like her mate than Lucien does and there's canon proof of this.

I believe the only reason Rhys stopped Az and Elain that night was because 1. he was convinced he would die with Feyre when she gave birth and didn't want his court to be in this war with the autumn court and 2. he is a political figure and he is using elain's bond as leverage with lucien. I believe that if Elain expresses to him how she wants to reject the bond, he would support it and accept Elain and Az.

I hate how everyone focuses on Gwyn and forgets about Emerie. I don't understand why people think Gwyn would be involved with the Illyrians. She is not Ilyrian and even though she finished the blood rite, she has said she does not want that illyrian warrior title. After what she went through during the rite, I don't see her being involved with them in any way. I do believe we will hear about Emerie doing something more like that. She could be an inspiration to Ilyrian females. Speaking of the Valkyries, I don't think they should have won the blood rite. It was very unbelievable. It would have been more believable if they had hid the entire time and waited for Cassian to come find them when the week was over.

Speaking Gwyn again, I think most of her fans overhype her too much. I like Gwyn and I'm glad that Nesta has her as a friend because she needed that. But I don't think we'll ever get her POV. I mean, we heard her story. We know what happened to her and we know pretty much everything about her. We know that she doesn't want that warrior title and she went back to the library not even sure about going to Nesta's mating ceremony. I think her fans forget this. I think they see her as a self insert character. I think they over sexualize her way too much. I'm not saying that SA survivors can't have a sex life so don't come at me. I just don't think she's going to want to be tied up with ribbons while Az holds her down and "ravages" her. The same male who seen what she went through that night. That just makes me uncomfortable. I think Gwyn would be embarrassed by the majority of her fans.

I will another post about that bonus chapter because there is so much to discuss.

I hate the amount of hate Elain gets and the side of the fandom that hates her does not deserve her. There is so much to learn about her and her powers and what goes on in her mind and I can't wait for her book.

I also think that papa archeron unknowingly traded Elain and/or Feyre and Nesta in his deal with Koschei for Vassa's temporary release.

I don't understand how people could hate feysand or any other members of the inner circle. In my opinion, if you hate them then why are you reading the series?? Why are you still here?

I don't think that sarah will make Nesta or Elain an actual queen or high lady. I think that Rhys and Feyre will always be more powerful than them and I think they will be High King and High Queen when the series is over. I can't see sarah making the sisters having the same amount of power or say as much as Feyre. She has always been above them. That has been obvious since the beginning because she's always protected them and taken care of them.

If you guys remember my other posts, then you will know my thoughts on how I think the rest of the series will go. Like elriel, vassien, koschei, the queens, the prison, the dusk court, the trove, all that. Elain and Nesta are the keys and Vassa should be the one to destroy Koschei. Rhys and Feyre will be High King and High Queen with nessian and elriel at their sides and everyone lives happily ever after.

What do you guys think?

[wishcamper]

I really hate the idea of Nesta having to play the courtier’s game. The dancing scene in ACOSF felt so yucky to me bc like - here’s a woman who was groomed to be a child bride now being asked to use her body and the promise of fucking her to achieve someone else’s ends. Again. It didn’t feel empowering to me, it felt belittling and objectifying.

Nesta is smart! Let her talk to Eris if you must make him want her. Don’t take one of the only things that gives her joy and debase it to sleazy political maneuvering. She shows over and over that she’s so much more capable if you just give her the opportunity.

Idk I just hate the way people continue to use her even when she’s “well”. Her powers, her sexuality, her physicality - let my girl enjoy things without spoiling them! It feels like Sarah had all these grand visuals in mind when it came to ACOSF (the ball, the hike, those godforsaken fucking stairs) and didn’t stop to think if any of it actually made sense character development-wise.

[nestastits]

If you hate Gwyn, give me a legitimate reason why other than her being with Azriel.

I’ve seen people claim she’s evil because she doesn’t wear her invoking stone. Even though there was literally an entire paragraph dedicated to why she feels unworthy of wearing it, but you know reading comprehension is dead for the antis. Plus, Ianthe literally wore one and she’s a rapist, murder, and traitor but Gwyn is more evil than her apparently?

I’ve seen people claim she’s a Lightsinger, something we know very little about and what we do know does not make sense with Gwyn’s history and appearance. Plus Nesta can fight off fae magic, so she would know if she was being lured. And if sjm decided to make Gwyn a Lightsinger, it would only make her better. But she’s not with the information we currently know of Gwyn.

I’ve seen people say she lied about her SA even though we have been told from precious Az and Mor how she was assaulted and by whom. And I can’t even begin to describe how fucked up and horrible you are in the head for even insinuating this.

I’ve seen people say it’s because she’s a child compared to others. But literally all the Archeron sisters are younger than her? Feyre was 19 when she was turned Fae. In acosf Feyre-21/22, Elain-23/24, and Nesta-24/25. Gwyn is 28.

I’ve seen people say she is too happy or excited about things, is that not how yall want Elain to be?

I’ve seen people say she’s a copy of Elain. Which is just pure idiocy. Elain and Gwyn have very different life styles. Elain and Gwyn like very different things. The only thing that makes them similar is their compassion for others.

I’ve seen people say they don’t trust her because Az’s shadows darted out at her breath. Azriel’s shadows were born from his loneliness and seek to protect him. They’ve been shown to love him too. His shadows darted out and danced with Gwyn’s breath, a considerable upgrade and show of affection compared to how they scatter away from other characters. They’ve been seen to hover around both cassian and Rhys, the people az calls his brothers, and Nesta-a friend of Az as seen in hofas. It does not mean anything bad for his shadows to fly around another character, I’d be more worried about them hiding from others.

The largest argument I’ve seen antis say is that they don’t like her because she made a man have a spark in his chest😑. If your ship is endgame, why do you care so much about the man having a spark in his chest for another woman? Unless of course this comes off as a red flag, which you should be hating az for not gwyn. Why do you hate her and make up shit for her to look bad just to bring another character up? If your ship is endgame, you should not be worried about the ONLY ACOTAR CHARACTER that has not done a single questionable thing (emerie too) to be hated for.

The only actual reason I’ve seen people hate her for always has to do with the shipwar, which is dumb as hell. But this also proves Gwyn/Azriel have done something to make you question the safety of your “endgame” ship🤔. Right?

[highladyjane]

The assault at Sangravah happened in early ACOMAF (before Elain's existence even came into picture for Azriel - 3 days before he even got to meet Feyre)... So I don't get how G and Az are supposed to be mates when he's had all that time to feel something?

There's the parallel of Rhys' father feeling his mating bond snap into place the moment he met his mother being assaulted.

"One look at her, and he knew what she was..." (ACOMAF, ch. 16)

Or Rhys himself feeling the bond when Feyre was being tortured by Amarantha...

"And I knew as I picked up that knife to kill her... I knew right then what you were. I knew right then that you were my mate." (ACOMAF, ch. 54)

Or Cassian simply meeting Nesta. "Say what I've guessed from the moment we met" he breathed. What I knew from the first time I kissed you. What became unbreakable between us on Solstice night." (ACOSF, ch. 62)

Bonus from Nesta: “‘From the moment I met you, I wanted you more than reason. From the moment I saw you in my house, you were all I could think about. And it terrified me. No one had ever held such power over me."

Or even Lucien after Elain was Made and maybe even while being thrown into the Cauldron... I don't even need a quote for them, but even Lucien knew and has tried seeking Elain out after the incident.

It's stated in the books and shown again and again that it's the males who are deeply affected by the mating bond. That they can know from the moment they meet. They all in one way or another sought after the females. Even Nesta and Feyre felt something before they knew or opened themselves up to it. And since they all met - They. Couldn't. Stay. Away.

But there's like... no hint of it from Az after stumbling upon G? Like he just literally stumbles upon her - never actually even actively seeking her out through all those years? He hasn't even actively tried to stay away? He's just... *crickets*

It's been Gwyn making noises and attracting his attention through all their scenes together. It was Gwyn asking for dagger lessons. It was 'Gwyn' making Az the new ribbon (whatever that means). And it's Az's shadows reacting to Gwyn, not Az himself. But there's no real hint that Gwyn feels anything romantic for him. There's barely any interactions between them without linking it to her assault in Sangravah and her growth from it.

Besides Az's shadows reacting to G, and that ribbon moment that everyone deems so pivotal when Az realises what it means for the Valkyries (that he's had a hand in training) and maybe even reflects upon Gwyn's character development and therefore what the ribbon means for Gwyn - which made me feel proud too, and that's how I interpreted it - but I can't see an undeniable sign of it being a mating bond anywhere.

I thought at first that mayhaps he was giving her space because of the assault, but then the BC came and he went "It was too late to bank without appearing like he was running," and then "He wouldn't go so far as to call Gwyn a friend,". (ACOSF, Azriel's Bonus Chapter)

Let's not even mention the part where Gwyn was actually in danger (no matter how capable she was at that point), while Cassian was going ballistic at Nesta being in danger, but Az is all like "Let's go save Eris". Eris who both he and Cassian hates. Eris who Az himself nearly killed during the HLs' pre-war meeting (before he exhibited actual mate behaviour and sought and risked his life to save Elain who's not even his mate). But no, he gave just as much or even less action and reaction about Gwyn as Tamlin gave when Feyre was UTM.

And I was like...

How are they mates? Where's the mate behaviour every male - mated or not - in Prythian has exhibited throughout the books? Why did I keep seeing things about them being mates and endgame?

The only hint between them that I could even begin to consider it from is the second to last sentence in Az's BC.

"But Azriel tucked away the thought, consciously erasing the slight smile it brought to his face. Buried the image down deep, where it glowed quietly."

But I basically have the same interpretation about that as this post from @merymoonbeam. (Although I'm still neutral about the lightsinger theory, it's the most interesting take.)

Because again.

Why hasn't Azriel felt/shown anything or actively sought her out or even actively stayed away if he's known Gwyn since Sangravah?

If they're mates, shouldn't he have felt and shown something - like that glow - and Gwyn be the one to snap him out of his 'love' for Mor before he even had the chance to meet Elain? If he's just lonely and jealous of his brothers having mates then... Why has he barely noticed or sought out Gwyn who's supposed to be his mate?

What, he had to wait until his shadows reacted to her to even think about her?

I'm not an expert at analysing things - I wouldn't even say I'm good at interpreting things especially when I've got my rose-tinted glasses on, so/but I'm always open to being wrong and changing my mind accordingly.

But/so convince me with actual canon and not just your biased opinions, delusions, self-insertions, or ships.

[decadentpostnachos-evil-twin]

See a more or less short rendition of my experiences when I first read the acotar series (Three years ago?) beneath the cut. I purposefully misspelled some names, I don't feel like getting death threats from obsessive stans tonight. Bisou x

The funniest thing for me is that I started reading acotar spoiled and biased. I got the recommendation from TikTok, and everyone there was raving about Fey/sand and hating on Tamlin. So naturally, I started acotar being prepared to hate Tamlin and yearningly wait for Rice sand to make an appearance.

How the tables turned with that.

First of all, I was whipped for Lucien the moment he first appeared. (I have also been in the Eris corner ever since...2021? Or so, when there was literally one piece of writing for him and that was some headcanons. Anyway.)

Secondly, I folded for Tamlin too, against my expectations when hearing people say he was a nasty abuser and Rice sand is the feminist king. Like, I was prepared for Tamlin to be the biggest prick, and then he came along with lines like "I play a mean fiddle" or "I love you, thorns and all" and writing Limericks to help Feyrug learn to read, and he was fumbling so bad, it was just absolutely cute.

And when Rice sand made his first appearance, I was underwhelmed. At that point, I had only heard people sing praise about him and how perfect he is, and he was just the prick I expected Tamlin to be.

Utm was disgusting, and fundamented my dislike for Rice sand because he was giving Sex offender in the worst way possible.

Acomaf came along and I was kinda happy to have things "back to normal". And then everything went to shit, Tamlin was completely disregarded and vilified, as was Lucien. And Feyrug began sucking Rice sands dick. I was so disappointed, and I clung to any crumb of Lucien and Tamlin I could get, especially after the Summer Court debacle and the CoN whore thing, because that was just disgusting.

Acowar sold my soul to Eris, to the point of no return. I was an Eris girl before that, but after? Altered my brain chemistry. There's hardly anything he can do at this point to make me not like him. It also festered my hate for the Ic even more, and I began to really despise Feyrug too. I wanted to burn the book when Rice sand was resurrected, because I had hoped that he'd just stay dead atp.

Acofas was a train wreck and the only good things about it were the one appearance Eris and Lucien had each. The rest was either cringey or anger inducing, or both combined. My villain origin story.

Acosf... I hate how she treated Nesta. My girl deserves better fr. I despised Cassian's povs, except for the ones where Eris was present. (Duh) Once again, only a few good things about this book. Those being Eris, Lucien and the Valkyries. The pregnancy plotline sucks ass, and if I see one more Rice sand lover saying Eris is misogynistic for saying Morningan dresses like a slut while defending Rice sand for the shit he pulled with the pregnancy because "he just wanted to protect Feyrug" and still calling him feminist, I'm going to have an aneurism.

I went into this series biased. I literally hadn't even opened the first book and already thought Tamlin sucks and Rice sand is the greatest salvation. It was deeply ingrained in my mind before I even read the series. And even then, I came out hating Rice sand and his AA circle of life and loving everyone the popular narrative told me to hate. So no, I'm not delusional for liking the characters I do. People who blindly stan the Ic just lack reading comprehension or the will to think about what they are reading for more than five seconds because there's nothing more they want to know than the length of bad imitation Batman's cock.

[bookishly-ariel]

As someone who read the Acotar series once, I dove into the sailboat my brain branded Elriel and by the end of Acomaf I realized it wasn't a small sail boat anymore.

By the time Azriel flew her to the house of wind the boat was decorated with Cobalt sails, flowers, and shadows. At end of Acomaf it was built for the deep seas of a shipping war I knew I'd eventually have to sail through if I wanted to enjoy online content of them.

By the end of Acosf I was looking out across that ocean from a Destroyer.

And through it all my love for the story and the characters was not overshadowed by the ship I had built from the small moments given between two characters who were briefly shown through the eyes of Feyre, Rhysand, Nesta, and Cassian but mostly through Sjm's words.

I loved Feyre's story, but I did not hate her sisters, I did hate her father, tamlin, and more of a dislike for his decision to let Tamlin bring Feyre beyond her breaking point and still support him, Lucien.

(Yes, I loved that papa archeron showed up and saved the day, still mad it took Fae intervention and healing to get him there but Feyre still loved him anyways. Tamlin's help at Hyberns camp was the only thing I let slide cause he owed it to them. Lucien . . . Well, I don't forgive him turning his eye on all the bullshit, but I do hope we get to see him grow and I do have a small ship in my head for him and vassa and a small enjoyment on how him and Gwyn would be as friends if not partners.)

I loved Nesta's story, but I supported them having an intervention because she was killing herself and through her healing, the friends she made and she found herself along the way. Actions taken by Nesta did upset me but so to did the actions and choices of others in the book.

(This book was therapeutic to the eldest daughter in me who was a shit sister to her own baby sister till something happened and we patched our relationship.)

I know I will love Elain's story, but I am content in my knowledge that Feyre shipped Azriel and Elain, humored it aloud to Rhys even.

Nesta wasn't blind either, she too realized her friend was distant and when finding out why she did not chase him off or shut down his feelings and neither did she blast him to the whole Inner circle. She understood and offered a small comfort.

I don't know how anyone who has read the books over and over cannot see beyond the sails of their sail boats.

These characters are more than their ships, and to claim your thoughts and opinions as those of the characters is baffling.

All this to say, You don't decide that someone can't be a Nesta Stan and support Elriel because "Nesta would never"

It's right there in A Court of Silver Flames, did you not read the book? I'm just saying, Nesta is many things but she isn't the type of woman to bite her tongue when she disapproves of something.

It's right there in the books, just saying.

[loonylooly]

at this point i'm wondering what sarah is thinking when writing her love interests, like ok it's clear she finds them hot but like....are they good people

Rhys:

UTM lap dance shenanigans

throwing Feyre into danger constantly (Weaver, destroying cauldron, getting the book from Adriata, etc etc)

Still not doing jack shit about wing clippings in Illyria?? Emerie is right there, Rhysand, go enforce your damn laws

Insulting his wife's sister constantly

Almost killed his wife's sister cause she dared give her important medical information

Locked Lucien (MY BOY!!) in the house of wind

Locked Nesta in the house of wind

Didn't give Mor any warning that time he made her face her abusers and she cried i think (ngl i forgot most of it)

Ignoring Hewn City even tho...Kier is like the only bad guy we've seen from there?? Surely there's decent people in Hewn City, don't gotta make everyone suffer

Nesta windhaven kidnapping intervention so she stops spending Rhys' money (if it was really about her own sake, they would've put a stop to it much earlier)

Seemingly alienates everyone in Feyre's life that could and would stand up to Rhys for Feyre's sake. Lucien? Nah, shoo. Nesta? Nah, shoo. Weird thought but Tarquin? Yeah, makes her steal his book.

And last but DEFINITELY not least; demon baby wife death

HE COULD'VE TOLD FEYRE... OR ATLEAST NOT THREATENED TO KILL HER SISTER FOR TELLING HER WHEN HE HOULD'VE TOLD HER IN THE FIRST PLACE??

THERE'S PROBABLY MORE BUT MOVING ON

Cassian:

Barely ever stands up for Nesta in the IC

Aids in kidnapping Nesta to Windhaven so she stops spending whysand's money

Laughs at Nesta when she falls down the stairs

Aids in punishing Nesta for daring to tell Feyre important medical info

Constantly going agaisnt Nesta's wishes and trying to "save her" when she doesn't want him to

That one time Azriel asked Nesta if Cass had pushed her down the stairs...Like are we gonna ignore that?? Personally I'd have a quarter life crisis if my closest friend, who is like my sibling and has known me most of our lives, seriously entertained the idea that i would physically assault the girl I like

general aggressiveness all of ACOSF

aids in bulldozing Nesta's apartment

Rowan goddamn Whitehorn (Who I've yet to see people bashing him somehow,,, HoF rowan was like if ACOSF cassian had a horrific murder baby

Left his pregnant mate alone during a war cause he wanted to prove himself....like..idk man if i had the choice between war and taking care of my pregnant wife i'd pick the wife (did he know she was pregnant? i've kind of forgotten by now)

Rowan's kid would've been hundreds of years older than Aelin.....just think abt that

Literally everything he did to Aelin during training in HoF

Their argument where he PUNCHED HER IN THE FACE

Threatened to whip Aelin...I repeat....Threatened to whip Aelin, an ex-slave....

Told Aelin it'd be better if she died 10 years ago (unprovoked?? bitch you met her like 2 weeks ago just cause she's getting on your nerves doesn't mean you gotta wish DEATH upon her)

Literally was relieved to find out she was only 19 because if she was a few years older she could've been THE CHILD OF HIS BEST FRIEND.

No issue with marrying the cousin of his best friend's child....Imagine if he hadn't met Aelin first.. If he'd met Aedion first, Aelin would've always been the relative of his friend's son to him

FOR THE RECORD i hate all of the SJM age gaps but rowan and aelin's specifically irks me because Aelin LITERALLY CALLS HIM OLD throughout the WHOLE SERIES

Literally tells Aelin he doesn't care about what she's been through and that she is nothing to him after she confronts him for leaving her

Puts Luca in danger by sticking him on to a frozen lake with a monster inside where he'll DIE if Aelin can't save him

Funnily enough, some of the only seemingly decent person guys in SJM 1. Are completely forgotten about in the books or 2. SJM had to make them violently unlikeable

Like we've got:

Tarquin, seemed like a pretty good guy, rightfully pissed that the IC stole his family heirloom, shows up like twice in the books (LET HIM COME BACK SARAH I LOVE HIM)

Tamlin, was pretty decent in book 1, was made violently unlikeable in book 2 onwards

Chaol, very strong morals, generally a good person, loves his wife, made violently unlikeable and boring in late CoM, HoF, and QoS (ToD is one of my favorite books in the series, will praise ToD till the day I die, my boy EARNED his own book)

Aedion, seemed like a good person, strong morals, spent years trading his dignity for the sake of Terrasen, loved his cousin above all else, made violently unlikable in KoA (even tho I think he was justified in being angry about it, i'd be SO pissed)

Sartaq, good guy, strong morals, Nesryn's chapters were some of my favorites in ToD, Sartaq is one of my favorite SJM love interests, i'll never forgive author lady for forgetting about him in KoA (tho i guess she forgot about everyone from ToD? Yrene and Chaol are the only important ones, she barely even mentions Nesryn even though Nesryn's BEEN an integral part of the gang since QoS, giving her the Suki from ATLA treatment)