#a batman who can't comfort a child is punisher in a silly hat

[t4tails]

Goiing through your liveblog and I am horrendously late but I think everyone who writes Batman should have that one "If you can't imagine your Batman comforting a scared child, that's not Batman, that's just the Punisher in a silly hat" quote inscribed on their brains

ive never heard that quote before but that is exactly it. i feel like a lot of people (cough zack snyder) forget that at the core of him, beneath all his issues and trauma and masks, hes a good person. because hes BEEN that scared child. and he makes mistakes but his intentions are good and while his no-kill rule may be seen as naive its there for a reason - he knows its not his place to be the judge, jury, and executioner. because once again, hes seen the consequence of that, up close, with his parents death

[coolwali]

A Defence of Snyder's Batman

Hello Everyone. A while back, I saw this post describing why Pattinsons' Batman was the only Batman film that understood who Batman was as a character and why Snyder's Batman failed to:

There's also the common quote from OSP that says: "if you can't picture your batman comforting a small child then you've just written the punisher in a silly hat."

I will not comment on Pattinson's Batman here but I do feel the Tumblr OP missed the point of Snyder's Batman.

Here's Jay Oliva, director of many DC Animated movies and storyboarder on BvS explaining Snyder's Batman:

Basically, while a lot of people did point out "Hey, This Batman is messed up for using guns and killing people" they missed that the point was that Batman was in the wrong here and his arc for him to realize that.

Is it not reasonable for a Batman story to ask "What if Batman started to falter and how far would he then go before he realizes he's become the monster he's supposed to be stopping"? In BvS, Batman has been banging his head against the brick wall of crime for twenty years, had his closest allies either brutally murdered or turned against him, and seen no change whatsoever. That’s enough to make any man break, even Batman. It’s right there in the script when Alfred says “That's how it starts. The fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness that turns good men cruel”. After so many stories of Batman basically being perfect, it's nice to have one that shows his demons in full force.

In BVS, we see a Batman that has fallen from grace and essentially become the villain he's supposed to be stopping. Alfred points this out to Bruce with his "New rules, sir?" line.

Superman's role in the story is to be that wake-up call for Batman. Throughout BvS, While Batman has been killing people and using guns, he has been rationalizing excuses. Usually justifying it as "collateral" (technically it would be 2nd degree murder since it wasn't pre-planned but still somewhat intentional). With Superman, that would be Batman's first proper 1st degree murder. Batman intends to full on kill Supes and has planned it all out. There's no excuse or justification Bruce can give. So Bruce initially dehumanizes Supes. He sees him as an alien and monster rather than a person.

That's where the Martha scene comes in. When Supes says "Save Martha". Bruce is initially even angrier, shouting "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?" because he thinks it's another trick or hallucination like the ones he's been having. It's not until Lois, a human, comes in and tells Batman it's Supes' Human mother, does Bruce finally confront the truth. We even see a flashback to the murder of the Waynes where Bruce sees himself in Joe Chill's Shoes and Clark in his. This humanizes Clark in Bruce's eyes. Making Bruce realize he was about to 1st degree murder a person.

And Bruce's belief in Supes is strengthened when Supes sacrifices himself. Bruce now fully realizes the full extent of how wrong he was and begins his journey to become more like his animated self (The whole "I failed him in death. I won't fail him in life" thing).

I think that's a good arc for Batman and one we haven't really seen too often.

Oh, and for all the OSP fans out there:

As for Superman, I might make a pt 2 defending him in more detail but the short version is that everything people commonly complain about with him (e.g, the Kents, him killing, his personality), it's all accurate to the comics Birthright and Earth 1 which are the inspiration for this Superman.

[gement]

Seeking the good Batdad comics

So, preface, I come from early Batman: the Animated Series, movies no less than a decade old (which don’t count for nearly as much but are big background flavor), and a scattershot reading of comics that have thus far not included a huge concentration of Robins. I’ve read the original canon Jason and Tim introductions and Jason’s death.

I am trying, even striving, to get enough canon under my belt to understand the bedrock of the AO3 fandom’s profound adoration of Batfamily. It was news to me, and it was news to some other Batman nerds of my acquaintance when I asked them about it. I don’t have the underlying intuition or sympathy for it that would let me write it well, so I’ve swandived into reading a bunch of recommended pivotal stories focused on the various Batkids. I’ve been looking forward to meeting Batdad.

I, uh, haven’t found any canon examples of that going well yet. Any.

To be fair, there are a lot of bad Batman comics in the world. And I am a big fan of throwing out as much canon as you want in favor of the good bits. I have read mountains of Avengers Clubhouse fic. But I’m still searching for good bits to build from.

What I’m finding instead is, for example, that time that the 17 year old who’s never had an outside life decided not to bother wearing a mask because she didn’t care about having an outside life. And instead of saying “Maybe postpone that decision and try meeting some people,” he said (italics are exact quotes from Batgirl #14), “I’m glad you want to use your identity. It makes you a more effective weapon. Here is a cave to live in all alone starting right now. You’d compromise Oracle’s identity if you stayed with her.” And then she lived there all alone for over a year and Oracle had to fight to stay in her life and Batman actively growled at any non-bat male under 25 years old who tried to spend time with her, like a vengeful father who also encouraged her to live alone. In a cave.

That one was admittedly during the same era as all the Terrible Stephanie Brown Writing Decisions We Do Not Speak Of, but... everywhere I look seems like it’s like that. I’ve been spoken to firmly by fans who say Batman doesn’t raise soldiers or treat people as weapons and, uh. See above. I catch some lovely flashes of siblings+Alfred bonding over their common cause of Working Around Bruce’s Shit, and that’s about it.

Please recommend me some runs or even individual issues where canon Bruce Wayne is actually a supportive parent. TV versions also happily accepted. I care less than zero about main continuity vs AU/one-shots.

Or, failing that, just let me know some fun bits with multiple Batfam bouncing off of each other despite him, I can mine that. I currently have a DC Universe all-you-can-eat pass for this research dive.