#a bards lament

[bigolbard]

Couple thoughts on LoVM eps 4-6:

1) They’re absolutely ending the season with Bard’s Lament and holy fuck it’s gonna fucking hurt

2) EXU Calamity fans eating absolutely deliciously today

3) They could not have adapted the Vorugal fight better. That shit was sick

4) I *adore* how much Gilmore, Allura, and Kima were getting this season. They all feel like bonafide members of the team, which is exactly what they should feel like.

[ohsnapbaskets]

The cast have all pretty much said way back when that a bard's lament and Scanlan’s outburst would not have happened the way it did if Pike/Ashley was there in person and around more. So with them writing her in to TLOVM I didn’t expect it to be the same.

[dreanner95]

I still maintain that the way Scanlan leaving played out makes sense for the show's canon. But with the new information that they wrote this season while not knowing if they would get another and wanted to end it on a more hopefull note, I am excited for what Sam talked about. He mentioned honoring Bard's Lament in a different way, which I am all for. As long as they either build it up properly or find an angle that fits the show, I am excited to see them finding the spirit in that moment and reinterpreted it.

Here is the link for the article: https://www.pastemagazine.com/tv/amazon-prime-video/the-legend-of-vox-machina-season-3-finale-interview-spoilers-ending-explained

[mayapapaya33]

I could write a 10 page essay on my thoughts and feelings about "A Bard's Lament" and about Scanlan. How I think a lot of people misinterpret what actually happened IMHO. It feels to me like a lot of people treat that scene like Scanlan is finally telling VM off for being bad friends and kind of cheer him on rather than realizing that he's having a mental health crisis having reached his breaking point and is lashing out.

Establishing some Game mechanics first and foremost, Sam consistently rolled 30+ deception checks anytime one of the others asked him how he was doing or tried to find out if he was having any problems. He is THE great deceiver. He lied to all of them, about everything. He never shared his worries or fears, or his drug problem. Nothing. Anytime they tried to connect with him, he shot them down, deflected masterfully. The other characters LITERALLY had no idea he was having any problems, if the players did anything about his problems after rolls like that it would have been metagaming. It's not that VM didn't care, they didn't know!

Which is frankly how he operated the whole campaign. From day one, anytime any of them asked him a personal question, he make a joke. Of course, Scanlan was a joke character in the beginning of the campaign, but from a character pov, the character treated everything as a joke. He cared about his friends, and they cared about him, they would die for him and vice versa, but he didn't have any heart to hearts with anyone. Slowly over the course of the campaign, everyone else opened up to each other, (or sometimes the narrative forced them to open up cough cough Percy cough cough) and he remained closed off, using humor to deflect any deeper connections. And the way the story went, he was never forced to share.

By the time "A Bards Lament" takes place, he's in a very bad place emotionally and is sad and scared and angry, and he says things to hurt people, not things that are true. (ok maybe some of it was true, but even the true bits were weaponized and honed to be the worst possible interpretations of events in order to hurt, not actually to BE truth. Vax and Keyleth definitely deserved a tuning up after their bs with the dragons. Personally, I'm very proud of Percy for not punching Scanlan for the comments about coming back to Whitestone just so he could be "proud of his name" or whatever, I've never heard such utter bullshit. Then some people are like, hey, why's Percy so mad at Scanlan, huh I fucking wonder? lmfao).

I relate to him in that I also use humor to deflect people and I sometimes wish that people would see what I feel and think; see through me, without me having to tell them. But that is unfair! I'm lying to them! That's on me! Which Is why I want to choke Scanlan out so often probably lmfao, because I understand where he's coming from and can see the mistakes he's making, and I just want to shake him.

I think a lot of people relate to Scanlan but perhaps... how shall I put this delicately... do not have the same level of self-awareness about the self-destructiveness of this particular approach to life and relationships and so feel a catharsis when he blows up at his friends because they also want to yell at their friends for not noticing their pain. Even though they are the ones who have hidden their pain with such skill that it really isn't their friend's fault they're clueless in the first place.

All that said, Vox Machina aren't perfect. They definitely could be better friends, they made mistakes. I just want to talk about the part of this that I don't often see discussed; Scanlan's depression and mental health struggles and their impact on his friendships and his responsibility.

Some people also act like VM bully "poor helpless Scanlan" (TLOVM sort of also acts like this sometimes which is annoying but oh well). When the reality is that Scanlan is a sharp tonged wit that verbally eviscerates his companions on a regular basis and so they treat him how he treats them. It's all banter... right up until it isn't and he's feeling sad and hurt and worthless and suddenly words hurt. But instead of opening his mouth and TELLING ANYONE how he feels, he just lets it build and build until he explodes.

I'm really worried about how TLOVM is going to handle it going forward, because so far they haven't really set up the group trying to connect with Scanlan and that's a mistake. They have a little, but they should do more. The scene with Pike was good, him instantly reverting to clownish behavior the second it got too sincere then him being frustrated with himself. But they really need to do some of that with the others as well and I'm worried they won't have time or won't think it's necessary.

It's HIS responsibility to reach out to others about his declining mental health. He is the one who set the rules of engagement as "Everything is a joke, especially serious things, I am allergic to sincerity" The others follow his lead. There's only so many times you can reach out to someone earnestly and receive a joke back for your troubles before you eventually respect the unspoken desire not to share and stop asking.

A lot of people cite the prank as some monstrous thing that VM did that proves that they don't love or respect Scanlan. Whereas actually, Sam Riegel admitted that at another moment in time, Scanlan would have found it funny. Pike knows that about him, which is why she did it. (Ashley of course, did it to send Scanlan over the edge because she's evil like that and they all adore drama lol). He was just in a terrible place mentally, so it felt like an insult instead of friendship. (idk where he said it, please don't ask, do you have any idea how many HUNDREDS of HOURS of CR I have watched?! It was probably talks machina).

Also, way back in the early episodes of C1 that lots of people skip, I forget which episode it is, but it was when they were under Kraghammer, Grog got his brain scooped out by the mind flayer or that brain creature or something (I'm a little fuzzy on the details). Anyway, they were all very frightened for Grog and they weren't sure they could save him. Once they figured out they could, Scanlan wanted to set up a prank for Grog to wake up to once they healed him (he was brain dead, in a coma or something). Point being Scanlan's a massive hypocrite lol. (which Sam fully admits).

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Now here's my VERY controversial opinion, don't hate me lol, I never actually liked the "what's my mother's name?" thing. It felt very meta gamey, like Sam looked up Percy's parent's names before the session as a gotcha! Not really like Scanlan actually knew their names. So it never hit me the way it was supposed to. But that's just personal taste. It also circles back to my previous points of YOU NEVER OPENED UP TO THEM SCANLAN, OF COURSE THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR MOTHER'S NAME! THAT'S YOUR FAULT!!!! MAYBE IF YOU DIDN'T TURN EVERYTHING INTO A JOKE, THEY'D KNOW HER NAME!!!!

[curapicas]

I'm aware this is part of the trend of snarky, snappy dialogue we see for banter on the american television. But I like that it's also Cassandra's little sister instinct shining through - every time we see her in season 3 she's being a leader, a lady, someone who deserves to be at the discussion table; and that's all well and good. Except whenever she's one on one with Percy she's smart mouthing him, being snarky and lovingly annoying him, lol. I think that goes to show how she leans on her big brother, and does so in a way that brings out a more comfortable and youthful side of her. As much as the De Rolos are not huggers, he was clearly all the family she had left :(((

[jimbodyson]

I went into these finale episodes thinking that I'd be so disappointed if they didn't do the Bard's Lament... but I'm not. Scanlan's story is so personal to me because I relate to him a lot. He feels very insecure, like his friends hate him and I feel that a lot, it's why he's my favourite.

I know we all love the Bard's Lament because it's amazing roleplay and a build up of finely hinted at small character details within the RP, but speaking as a person... If Scanlan feels the way he said, lashing out at his friends isn't how he deals with it. That's not a healthy thing to do, and isn't really fair on his friends either.

Scanlan feels similarly to how he does in the campaign. He says that now he finally feels like he matters (with Kaylie), and he says he likes himself better with her. This is what Campaign Scanlan felt as well, the difference is now he's not angry, humiliated in front of his daughter because he's covered in pudding, or only just came back from being dead. In other words, this is essentially just the Bard's Lament if he handled it healthily, and I love that. He's telling them how he feels without accusing them of hating him-- which is the better way of dealing with it.

On another note, I still feel like I can write this One-Shot about Scanlan, Kaylie and Marion. I'll just have to tweak a few things to line up, because ultimately, those feelings of insecurity aren't just going to go away now. Part of him feels like they hate him, but another part of him knows that they love him.

And, obviously, if you're disappointed then that's valid. But I don't think that this is objectively bad or anything. It's just different and that's okay.

And you know what the best part is? This might not even be the proper adaptation for it! Given that a season 4 has been greenlit, and in my opinion it's still clear that Scanlan has some insecurities regarding his friends, they could still pull it off at some point!

[natp20]

this is going to hurt later, isn't it

[dyke-of-the-living-dead]

full offense

[arthurn9]

Gonna say my peace before going to bed because I'm already seeing this on the Beacon discord:

TLoVM is a different show than Critical Role Campaign 1. One is an adaptation of the other. Adaptations change things to fit the medium they are adapting to.

A lack of Lament-ing isn't necessarily bad. It just doesn't fit within the altered narrative of TLoVM. Vox Machina didn't accidentally make Scanlan break the promise of never appearing weak, so there wasn't that same bitterness when he woke up. They also didn't fucking prank him meanly (a decision I kinda always questioned when it happened in C1, it was kinda mean-spirited). This version of Scanlan and Kaylie had a much better rapport and were in a much better place after everything was said and done. The other members leaving and doing their own thing also makes sense, given their motivations.

If you prefer the angsty original, go watch C1E83-85. They were fucking amazing episodes. If you like softer, more bittersweet endings, watch TLoVM S3E12, et al. It was very nice!

I'm not saying to not dislike something, just don't be a dick about it to people that like the change.

[radcaduceus]

raise your hand if you're not ready for a bard's lament

[bigolbard]

I haven't seen anyone else mention this (though I'm sure someone out there has), so I will be the one to do it:

Keyleth's dialogue with Vax in S3 E3 makes a pretty overt and explicit reference to Scanlan's original Bard's Lament monologue from C1. Like, so much so that not only did I clock it in the moment, but I went, "hm, that's interesting." Here's the breakdown:

Keyleth (LoVM S3, E3): "As a team we take risks all the time -- we're going to goddamn hell for a piece of armor -- but, you won't risk anything for me."

Scanlan (CR C1, E85): "We travelled into the fucking Nine Hells to get Pike a suit of armor... but you've never done anything for me. Ever! You've never risked anything..."

I find this to be very very interesting, because in my mind it means one of two things:

A) They're setting this up as a parallel to Bard's Lament, specifically as a gut punch to Vax -- who was very involved in Scanlan's original monologue -- as he'll hear essentially the same thing from two separate party members in two different contexts.

or B) They're changing Bard's Lament significantly enough that they want to ensure pieces of it still show up in the show, even if they're in different locations. I can kinda see this being the case to an extent, especially because in the show they don't go after the armor specifically for Pike, so it might not make as much sense for Scanlan to say as such.

But regardless of any potential storytelling implications, I just find it very very interesting that this is a parallel I've mostly seen go unnoticed by the wider Critter community (though granted 1) I stay out of a lot of fandom circles intentionally and 2) this happened at the exact same type that Percy and Vex were fucking nasty so we were all understandably a little distracted, I get it)

[bravoalmara-blog]

We may not have gotten bards lament, but we did get this and it might be better!

In Keyleths visions, we get a flash of Pike and Scanlan’s kids plus Scanlan’s ‘s mother‘s death. This shit is gonna get expanded in the next season. I’m gonna die.

[wandering-trader-joes]

So idk if this is a hot take or not, but I liked the end of TLOVM Season 3.

(More under the cut? Is that what they say?)

TL;DR: this version of Bard’s Lament fixed a problem I had with the original campaign, I think all the wrap up at the end was probably done as well as it could’ve been, and the way it ends with a tenuous semi-resolution is in-keeping with the way that it played out in game, albeit in a more condensed format.

———

The main thing I’ve seen people talking about is the lack of Bard’s Lament (kinda), and I was upset about that idea at first too. But honestly, I think this change does a lot of justice specifically to the relationship between Scanlan and Pike.

A lot of what happened in Bard’s Lament was due to the fact that nobody noticed that Scanlan was struggling, and that’s all well and good except for the fact that Pike absolutely would have.

The only reason she didn’t was because Ashley Johnson herself wasn’t able to be there. Idk about anyone else, but that narrative gap due to “meta interference” has always bothered me. I kind of love that they were able to rectify that in the show, and give us the way that Bard’s Lament likely would have gone if real life didn’t get in the way.

We finally get to see how it would have went down if Pike didn’t have such a Blind Spot, and I love that for her.

———

I’ve also seen people talking about how the ending felt lackluster, and I can see where they’re coming from, but I personally disagree.

I was a little anxious at the start of episode 10 when they started to split up to do a bunch of the previously group-based activities, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that, aside from not getting the group kill on Ripley, it didn’t bother me that much (and we still got the “one arrow in her heart and another in her mouth while she screams”, which makes me happy).

Especially because it gave time to see more of the twins on their own (which I will always take more of) and let Keyleth do her Earth Ashari stuff, which we didn’t even get in the original show as it happened pre-stream (but would’ve felt weird to leave out here given that they haven’t established that). And we finally got EarthElemental!Keyleth. It’s Key-teor time!

It also put her Aramente into more of a focus in her life, which needed to happen at some point anyway. And they still got to be together (kinda) for the final showdown against Raishan, so the conclusion was still there.

———

In the campaign, they had this weird kind of limbo period (the part with Tary) before the year-long gap where they were sort of just tying up loose ends. That felt fine as a game, but would’ve been super clunky on TV. So I’m glad that they found other ways to get the group to the point where it felt like going their own ways for a while was okay and also necessary (though I do wish we had gotten more of the twins struggling with the idea of being away from each other). I just really needed Vax to get his year in Zephrah!

All that being said, I am a little sad that we probably won’t get Tary in the show.

———

The vibe that I always got with the Vecna arc was that the group was pretty much ready to settle into their non-adventuring lives before they had to stop the end of the world again (aside from Scanlan stuff, but I already talked about that). In order for that to be the case, they need to have a period of time where it kind of feels like everything is wrapped up and happy. In my opinion, they were quite successful in this regard, which is impressive given how they were able to get there in only 3 episodes.

Idk I’ve just been wondering for a while about how the were going to navigate this part of the campaign, and I’m quite pleased with how they managed it. That’s not to say it’s perfect, but I feel as content with it as I do with all the other changes they’ve made whilst adapting to a different medium.

———

… also I’ve been wanting to gush over one tiny detail. I love the way that Vax’s interaction with Orthax went. Not only because of how it finally established him and Percy as brothers, but it’s also a cool way to loop in his multi-classing. Orthax specifically talks about Vax giving in to vengeance, and in the campaign he becomes a VENGEANCE Paladin! I thought it was a really fun way to kind of hint at that shift without needing to get into the dnd of it all :)

[mayapapaya33]

Things they better put in TLOVM in no particular order pt 5 of ?

More of the rest of VM interacting and saving Scanlan in battle or joking around with him and being friends. And his tongue was much sharper towards his friends in the campaign. I get what they're trying to do, what they're setting up, but I don't like how they've gone about it and they're going WAY too far with it. The whole point of 'you know what' is that Scanlan is in a bad place mentally and he's been lying to everyone until he exploded NOT that no one cares about him. (Sure, they aren't perfect, but guess what, neither is he). Start SHOWING people caring about him and him not noticing! They've really woobified him and I don't love it. He's a sharp-tongued dickhead who jabs his friends all the time and can dish it out but stopped being able to take it as the campaign progressed due to his faltering mental health, not a victim of bullying.

I hope they fix the balance somewhat in season 3 but I'm doubtful of that aspect. (Still love the show, just not this approach).

[shorthaltsjester]

vex fully saving percy’s life on three separate occasions in the first 3 episodes, being deeply bothered in the one occasion where she couldn’t be the one to save him. very tryst behaviour, very bad omen of her to be the person that keeps him from getting hurt both physically and who reminds him to forgive himself (while he is sitting at a desk tinkering in front of a model clock tower 🙃) and that giving himself over to — essentially — death in the name of his own guilt won’t get him anywhere. i would like to set syldor vessar on fire. vex has literally been at the forefront of things that have saved percy throughout the show, and in fact percy has been more of a bad omen for her than the other way around, between orthax trying to get percy to shoot her and the whole causing her death thing, and vex being so convinced that her potentially loving someone is a curse she gives them and not the blessing it has clearly been for percy. head in hands . i love their dynamic so far is s3 for silly it’s fun reasons like seeing the inversion of boring tropes by having percy be fully portrayed as a damsel in distress and vex taking on the protective knight role, down to her suave lines after saving him and percy being a blushing mess when she so much as flirts with him. that said i am gnawing on my cage about the fact that the show is clearly showing vex as percy’s protector in the actions she takes but also making it clear that to her she can’t be good.

i will forever mourn that the tlovm version of saundor didn’t include the emphasis on ‘unproven ally’ because i think that part actually carried the brunt of the weight for vex’s growth post-saundor in campaign — especially re: her morality and her role in vox machina — than unwanted daughter ever could, since she already knew she was unwanted by syldor, but having saundor call her an unproven ally was a confirmation of fears she’d had but, until that point, could be repressed and turned away from because up to that point they were just fears. but all that said, i’m really heartened by the fact that s3 does seem to be bringing up vex’s concerns re: her goodness and how that impacts the rest of the party, particularly those she’s closest to. do i think some of the weight is taken out of the sails of vex thinking she’s a bad omen by the lack of establishment earlier in the show that she was struggling with seeing herself as something that could be good? yes, but i’m also really excited to see how her view of herself might be addressed in (potentially) upcoming story beats like glintshore and bard’s lament.

[jimbodyson]

This a huge mega rant (/pos) about Bard's Lament, Scanlan's feelings, Pike's feelings and how the rest of Vox Machina respond to him. Putting it in the (more) thing because it's long and spoilery.

I love the whole set up and eventually pay off so much, because it's so real. Of course VM loves and cares about Scanlan, but the entire time they've been together he's always been a nonchalant, sex obsessed, drunk asshole. The character development he's been having has been happening either by himself or with one other member of the team (Pike or Vax). Of course they don't know he wants to change! To them, seeing Scanlan lying in a pool of his own vomit, ranting about a girl he fucked up with is normal because that's how he's always been. The difference now is, he's talking about his daughter and not a random girl. Pike is the only one that knows Scanlan's daughter's name, so she's the only one that knows what he's talking about. The rest (maybe bar Vax?) don't think twice about being a dick to him after because, again, that's how it's always been with Scanlan.

His feeling like they don't care about him is completely valid because- to him- he's been trying his best to change who he is and they still treat him like a nonchalant, sex obsessed drunk asshole.

Vox Machina being confused as to why and how he thinks that is also valid, because they have no idea he's changing. They don't know he cares more than anyone. They don't know he's stopped going to brothels. They don't know he drinks away his feelings.

The reason Pike knows something is up with him is because she's arguably the most perceptive when it comes to insight. She loves Scanlan in more ways than one and is arguably the only member of Vox Machina (bar Vax, again) that knows that Scanlan cares more than he lets on. She loves the side of him that is sincere, so she's always looking out for when he shows it. Which is why she above everyone else, she notices the little things when it comes to him: because she's ALWAYS been looking for the little things.

Scanlan has internalised literally everything. The few times he's tried not to (I.e. with Pike in the balcony in 3.3) he thinks he fucks up and distances himself more.