#Zuko's sexism

[ash-and-starlight]

The world needs more Yue and Zuko friendship, I squeal just thinking abt the parallels. They deserve a life changing field trip together and if u have abt ideas I’m all ears 👀

Hiii anon this ask fermented in my inbox and in my brain for so long,, so take this??? Post canon yue lives/no war au arts?? Anyway aside from the Parallels and their political position & their duty before hoes grindset I think they could learn a lot from each other. With zuko learning the gift of patience & diplomacy from yue & Yue learning that allowing yourself to feel anger and speaking up can actually be Good.

anyway hypothetical life changing trip outcome: zuko takes an intro gender studies class and yue says fuck

(oh and also must not forget the crush on sokka)

[muffinlance]

Wait, what’s going on with Embers???? That fic has been on my read later list since 2021, what’s happened with it???

Brief overview, then I'm likely never touching this topic again, because this is not a Drama Blog:

Context: Embers is a super old AtLA fic that was written during the early fandom days, read widely at the time, and was the origin of the widely-used fanon name of "Wani" for Zuko's ship (kind of by default that it was one of the first popular fics to give his ship a name, I think?), even though most fic writers don't seem to realize it's from there anymore.

"What's Going On": I used to include a link in all my stories to it, because I believe in crediting other writers for borrowed elements, and I was using "Wani" in all my fics. But BOY did I not want to be sending readers that way anymore, so I've adopted a new name for Zuko's ship, and removed all Embers links.

None of the criticisms about Embers itself are new; I'm assuming they date back to when the fic was being written, because this isn't an "it aged badly" thing, this is an "actually yeah this gets worse the longer you think about it and I shouldn't have ignored my bad feelings just because some of the worldbuilding was interesting" thing.

An Incomplete List of Why I Made the Change:

I don't actually like the story that much anymore, and don't want to rec it

I tried to re-read it recently to see if some things were as bad as I remembered and it turns out they were So Much Worse Oh Yikes. More specifically, the treatment of Katara and Aang and their respective cultures has... rather a lot going on. One example: The Fire Nation and Air Nomads are both given multiple backstory elements in an attempt to make the average Fire Nation soldier's participation in the genocide/war in large part the fault of the Avatar and the Air Nomads themselves, and also fully justified from the Fire Nation perspective. And I do mean fully. One of its core tenants is "People from the Fire Nation (and only people from the Fire Nation) who don't follow orders Literally Die, therefore murdering pacifists and babies and continuing the war (and their regularly scheduled war crimes) is the only thing it is physically possible for them to do". I cannot emphasize enough how literal that is.

Also the name "Wani" means "Alligator" and is... objectively a pretty lame name for Zuko's ship? Where's the personality, where's the deeper meaning, where's the resonance with Zuko's themes? @tuktukpodfics initially thought I was calling the ship "Wanyi", and that's what I've switched to, because it is Objectively So Much Better. In their words: “Wànyī (萬一): Literally ‘one in ten thousand,’ ‘perchance.’ Used grammatically in Chinese to mean ‘what if’ or ‘just in case.’ I think a ship called ‘The Perchance’ is perfect for a boy clinging to false hope.”

TL:DR; I don't rec Embers anymore, because I don't actually like the story anymore, and there are things about it that get worse the more I think on them. I've removed links to it and renamed Zuko's ship to "Wanyi" ("The Perchance") because our boy deserves a ship name that reflects his character arc.

[agnisleftpec]

reblogs are off but i wanted this post on my blog

[vidduality]

It's disturbing how much rage bait ONE line said by a young teenage girl in an EW cover story with so much other content can generate. Dozens and dozens and dozens of click bait articles, rage video analyses, and SO many angry meta posts with people practically ready to tear Katara's actress apart with their bare hands. All for having the audacity to say that she found some of Sokka's more brazenly sexist lines "iffy" in the OG cartoon. She implied it wouldn't translate as well in a live action and that they had toned it down, and you'd think she announced the Avatar is going to be a warmonger the way the internet's turned on her.

This week's fandom discourse has been about as low key and rational as S1 Zuko being offered some calming Jasmine tea...

[gayautisticfr0gs]

sometimes I really hate the lack of utilisation of the lack of misogny in the fire nation for comedic purposes in fanfiction

I mean imagine how fucking funny it could be when Zuko flat out doesn't have a single clue what the fuck misogny is

the potential

pls god I need fanfics that have this I would consume them like they are my last supper

[theotterpenguin]

I really like the nuanced take about Zutara and why it makes some people uncomfortable and I can see both sides of it. I ship Zutara now but at first I didn’t and it made me really uncomfortable but I think it was just because of certain fan content I was coming across. Some people do portray Zutara in an extremely fetishized & creepy Stockholm syndrome way that makes Katara come off like some helpless damsel stereotype. It made me feel really gross thinking about as a young WOC but rewatching the show and seeing the true dynamic of these characters made me fall in love with them again. So I guess my feeling is that in canon i really love the dynamic but I hate the way *certain fans* twist it and refuse to acknowledge the racism & misogyny in what they’re doing

this is a complicated topic with many layers to it but first - i am sorry if you have ever felt unwelcome in the zutara fandom due to experiences with racism/misogyny.

it would be ignorant to claim that the zutara fandom is somehow uniquely unaffected by systemic racism or sexism, but it would also be disingenuous to claim that these issues only exist in certain parts of the atla fandom. racism, sexism, and general bigotry exist in every fandom due to institutionalized inequality in social structures. and to make it clear, i'm not directing this criticism towards you, anon, you are entitled to your own personal experiences, but i have seen a broader trend of people attempting to use fandom racism to moralize their position in ship wars, which is diminishing from the actual problem - the focus should be on acknowledging the existence of fandom racism/sexism, combatting implicit biases, and creating spaces that can uplift marginalized voices, rather than focusing only on optics in an attempt to gain moral high ground in a silly *fictional* ship war.

however, given all this, the reason that i am still in the zutara fandom is because i appreciate how many people in the fandom are dedicated to unpacking issues of racism and sexism and cultural insensitivity in atla's source material, which i personally haven't seen in many other sides of the fandom (that often sanitize what actually happened in the text to avoid acknowledging these issues in their favorite show). of course this is a broad generalization, but that's generally why i stick with the non-canon shipping side of the fandom because fans that are willing to stray away from canon are often less afraid to engage in critical analysis.

i also do think the zutara fandom has come a long way from the early 2000s when the show first aired. for example, when i first joined the fandom i had mixed feelings on fire lady katara, but i have since read some fanfics that have done an excellent job deconstructing some of the problematic ways that this trope could be interpreted and balancing respect for katara's cultural heritage and autonomy with the political and personal difficulties of being involved with an imperialist/colonialist nation. the fire lady katara trope, capture!fic, and other complicated topics/tropes are almost never inherently racist/sexist, but rather, their execution is what matters. and all this is not to say that issues of systemic racism/sexism do not still exist in this fandom, but it personally has not significantly negatively impacted my experience in the zutara fandom due to the wonderful content that so many other fantastic people produce, though everyone's mileage may differ with what they are comfortable with. anon, i hope that you are able to find a place in the zutara fandom for you! but i also know many people that have stepped back from other fandoms due to experiences with racism/misogyny, so i understand that decision as well.

on a final note, i think it's important to acknowledge that fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum and broader issues of racism and sexism are rooted in the media, the entertainment industry, and mainstream societal norms. while i do sometimes focus on fandom dynamics/discourse in my criticisms, i think it is equally as important to acknowledge how issues of prejudice and inequality are perpetuated through larger social structures, which is why it frustrates me when the atla fandom refuses to acknowledge the flaws of the original show, which has far more influence and social power over the general public than discourse over fandom tropes ever will. personally, i don't understand the phenomenon of holding fan-made material to a higher standard than mainstream media.

[atla-recluse]

You know it's actually kinda funny

in a super unsettling way, how Katara's relationship with Pakku is (unintentionally?) paralleled by Azula's relationship with Iroh.

Clearly both men think there are roles that girls/women shouldn't be allowed to have, based on the behavior they exhibit and their, respectively, explicit and implicit mindsets.

It's also likely that both of them believe it their job to keep girls/women "in their place" and boys/men above them at all times, and will happily teach it to those who will listen to them (in Iroh's case, Zuko).

[kataraslove]

zutara shippers: katara and mai deeply dislike each other. mai is literally seething with jealousy over the fact that zuko took lightening for katara, while he abandoned mai and left her to rot in prison until her uncle bailed her out.

katara and mai: *develops a canon friendship by the end of the series*

also zutara shippers: katara would adore on ji and consider her as a best friend!

katara and on ji: *do not share any scenes together. katara has only shown to harbour jealousy towards on ji dancing with aang*

it’s so funny to me how the self-proclaimed pro-katara and pro-feminist fandom will attempt to orchestrate a nonexistent rivalry between two girls who hold no animosity towards each other anymore in canon, while at the same time insisting that katara would become good friends with the minor character that she has only ever expressed jealousy towards.

[the-badger-mole]

This idea that Zuko is sexist is an annoying and ridiculous argument that seems to have popped up out of nowhere. Whenever someone accusing him of sexism can be bothered to even pretend to have evidence of his sexism (and they usually can't be bothered to pretend), they cite his fights with Katara. Let me be perfectly clear- just because Katara happens to be a girl, doesn't make Zuko sexist for fighting her. She is presenting herself as an opponent and Zuko is responding in kind. That is the opposite of sexist. What would be sexist is if he refused to fight Katara because she's a girl. Zuko has his faults. Sexism isn't one of them, and if the people accusing him of it based on their meager evidence would pull their heads out of their butts and got a breath of fresh air, maybe they would realize how sexist their arguments are.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

So you've mentioned before that Zuko doesn't show any sexist behaviors but I'd like to point out a few scene just to see how you feel about them.

"You have quite the appitite for a girl." A very tropey sexist statement (which, yes, is played for laughs and I don't think he meant it as an insult but it does show that he has an idea of how girls either should be or usually are)

"Nice try Avatar, but these little girls can't save you." I can't really recall him ever saying anything similar about male warriors? I know there aren't really a lot of examples of male warriors that Zuko fights, but it still feels very,,, pointed and focused on the girls part.

"I'll save you from the pirates." "Looks like somebody found herself a master." These are both very patronizing lines that he says toward Katara, but he never says anything similar to Sokka or Aang (Aang I can dismiss bc he's just a prize, not an 'enemy', plus, Zuko tends to go for racist comments instead) or like, any other male, ever?

"I thought girls liked these kinds of things." Once again, is played for laughs at social ineptitude but again, shows a 'all girls are the same' mindset

Him picking at Ty Lee also felt very misogynistic to me? Like he was looking down of feminine behavior.

"What is with you?" As he is frusterated that Katara hasn't automatically forgiven him, yet to Aang he is very humble and genuinely tries to prove himself as well as accepting the lack of forgiveness as just due and offering himself as prisoner. Again, he just doesn't show the same amount of respect to Katara as he does to Aang or Sokka.

Like, any of these on their own, I could dismiss for one reason or another, but when the examples pile up it shows itself as a pattern of viewing women as intrinsically different from men, expectant of 'womanly behavior', dismissive of feminimity, and dismissive of female threats.

I love Zuko, but I definitely see this as one of his flaws and something he's got to get over along with the rest of the bullshit he was indoctrinated with. (Which is one reason I love his and Katara's friendship because like, if there was anyone who's Not Gonna Stand For That Shit, it's Katara ksbdjdnd)

Let me split the difference here

Not sexist, just an asshole

Zuko picked on Ty Lee because, much like IROH, she was a cheery person that was trying to get Zuko to lighten up or at least stop with all the unnecessary rage, angst and aggressiveness. We also see him get pissed at ALL OF HIS FRIENDS and physically attacking Aang in the finale because they're goofing around instead worrying about the war like he is.

When Zuko thinks happiness is not acceptable, he lashes out at any living thing. Boy literally snapped at a frog for not indulging in his angst to confront his current/former enemies and apologize to them. It's really not fair to act like he was picking on Ty Lee in particular, and that the ONLY reason for it was "girly girl" - especially when "The Beach" literally has Zuko himself reach the conclusion that he is lashing out at everyone else to deal with the fact that he's angry at HIMSELF, HIS actions, HIS doubts, HIS conflicting feelings. This is not about Ty Lee at all.

The same can be said about his entitlement to Katara's forgiveness. He offered to be the prisoner of ALL OF THEM when he was trying to make amends, and when they all rejected him, Katara very much included, he accept it.

Then Toph, Aang and Sokka all came around, forgived and befriended him. Everyone was chill with him. Everyone, except Katara. She was the odd one out, the constant reminder that it was not gonna be that easy to let the past stay in the past.

Zuko was trying his best to be a better person, but old habits die hard, and there was a person not doing what was more convenient for him, so he threw a tantrum. There is nothing special about that person being Katara, or any girl.

"Looks like somebody found herself a master" was also not at all about gender. Zuko mocked Aang for being "just a child" and for not having a father. He also humiliated Sokka in the first episode. OF COURSE he'd try to taunt Katara during fights.

And she DID get a master. We saw it happen. Aang was already a master of air (the element he used the most in fights), Sokka only got one in book 3. Their power-level remained the same, Katara's changed, right after she reached the North Pole, specifically to look for a waterbending master - for Aang, sure, but it's her element too, and Zuko KNOWS that she stole a scroll and used to teach herself. Zuko connecting the dots is not him assuming that a woman can only improve if she has the help of a man, it's just him having a brain.

He isn't mocking her for being a girl that needed to be taught by a man, he is mocking her for thinking she could defeat him, even after a power up - typical battle taunt, that Zuko engages in ALL the time, with basically every foe he goes up against.

And that also ties into:

Not sexist, just "Villain Talk"

Taunts like calling the Kyoshi Warriors "little girls" that can't protect the Avatar, or mocking Katara for finding herself in a situation of "damsel in distress" with the pirates, COULD reveal that Zuko is sexist and, much like Sokka and Pakku, didn't believe women could be competent fighters... if we didn't know him.

Zuko literally grew up with AZULA, someone who, in his own words, is a prodigy that is good at everything, does stuff with ease, and can be compared to the freaking Avatar. He and Iroh literally agree that it's less dangerous to risk it all traveling through the Earth Kingdom than risking being captured by her.

He never has any issue or doubt regarding Azula, Mai and Ty Lee as fighters. He doesn't throw a tantrum over needing June's help with his new plan to capture Aang. He SAYS he doesn't respect Katara as a fighter, but he's constantly in battle mode whenever he's around the any member of the Gaang, yes, even Katara, by herself.

Zuko, as a villain, says shit he doesn't mean ALL THE TIME. We see him use Ozai's line of "I'll teach you respect" against a member of his own crew, and say that the safety of said crew doesn't matter - and then go and save the guy's life. He says he'll give Zhao a scar, and doesn't do it even after Zhao tells him to AND calls him a coward.

Zuko thinks he needs to be aggressive, piss people off, and even be downright cruel, because that's what he was taught - but deep down that's not what he wants to be, nor what he already is. The same applies to his lines that imply he doesn't think women can be competent fighters. He knows that's not true, but he thinks he needs to act like that, to "play that role" because he literally was disfigured for NOT being cruel, for NOT treating people as disposable, for NOT wanting to fight, for NOT posturing as "macho", for NOT acting like he was better than everyone.

Sexist VS Sixteen/Clueless

"You have quite the appitite for a girl" and "I thought girls liked these kinds of things" feel, to me, like more of a result of Zuko being VERY clueless about social interactions and kind of relying on "tried and tested" stuff that most people around him tend to say/expect.

If you want to count that as being sexist instead of just said something sexist without meaning to, fine - but then it's time to revoke Katara's crown of "feminist queen." She was super happy when Toph joined the Gaang because she wanted someone to agree with her that some of Sokka and Aang's jokes/behaviors were immature and/or gross. TOPH. The character that is very clearly not all that feminine when she has a say on the matter and is the time to literally spit during a fight to show her disdain for the oponent, something Katara was already supposed to have learned two episoddes before.

And while you didn't mention that line, in the finale, when Zuko asks Katara to help him "put Azula in her place", Katara doesn't snap at him for supposedly being sexist (and I personally don't think this was about gender, just about their bitter rivalry and that idea that he can only truly succeed if she fails, and vice-versa) but a lot of the "Zuko is sexist" uses that as evidence, yet they never seem to care that, according to that interpretation of the scene, Katara is being complicit in Zuko's sexism towards his sister.

Oh, and Sokka, who was supposed to have unlearned sexism after the Kyoshi episode, told Aang not to answer to "twikle toes" because it wasn't manly. He also told him that, to win a girl over, you can't be too nice. It's played off for jokes and meant to make him look clueless, just like Zuko's scene with Jin.

If we're gonna call Zuko sexist for passing comments that are nowhere near as relevant as the way he is shown to consistently not treat women differently than he treats men, we're gonna have to do the same to every character - and reach the conclusion that even Katara is sexist.

Now, onto the inevitable question of:

"Does that mean the show itself is sexist?"

As some of you might have noticed, I tend to place "said something that can be taken as sexist" in a different category to "legitimately has sexist beliefs/behaviors on a very constant basis." I know that's not how everyone looks at these things, but I genuinely think it's the most accurate way to describe the nuances of it all.

I'd say Avatar is a show that has MOMENTS that could be seen as a little sexist, but overall it very clearly, and proudly, took the stance of "women deserve as much respect as men", and fully expected the audience to see the characters as equals, with the things like their genders not mattering to how one thinks of them. For that, I'd say it's unfair to label it as sexist just because of the odd questionable scene. It's taking the exceptions and trying to pass them off as the rule.

And I think the same logic applies to Zuko as a character. He has moments in which he might demonstrate some light sexism (or even intentionally fake sexism to piss someone off), but if you look at the real context and pattern, it's clear that even as a villain he never actually seem to treat women differently from men - it just so happens that when he was a bad guy he, naturally, wasn't used to treat people well. He was a jerk, but he was a jerk to EVERYBODY, all the time, no distinction made.

[puppyeared]

Atla live action 😐

[ragnarssons]

why tf do we live with people in this fandom, pretending that sokka being sexist and "overcoming it" is sokka's SOLE ARC on the show???

[pyr0cue]

My thoughts on natla is that if they wanted to make a different show they should have made a different show.

[ultfreakme]

i'm genuinely fucking tired of all these bad faith 'criticisms' of NATLA. Just say you don't personally like it and go instead of blowing clickbait headlines out of proportion. You don't need to moralize your ability to not enjoy a peace of media like it is fine to say "i don't like it" instead of "removing sokka's 4 episode sexism 'arc' is an indicator that we're devolving into fascism"

There are actually things you can critique in the show, like how they're leaning into like early 2000s version of 'feminism' or how they removed Aang's joy and didn't give him space to regain his happiness or how gaang never bonded as a group properly, or the pacing and writing issues, or a million other things before we get to "NATLA is promoting imperialism" or whatever the fuck because if, for some reason you come out of NATLA thinking the fire nation are good, send me the link to whatever natla you're watching because what i watched left me hating Ozai and the FN.

[problematicsubmarine]

Ok so I'm most of the way through the live action ATLA and no it's not perfect, some of the acting is a little oof but overall it's pretty good? The costumes, the sets all the older actors for the most part. Some of the cg needed a little more time and all of these streaming shows could benefit from a few more episodes, but the way they've combined storyline and episodes to try and fit things in in a coherent way, some of the changes they've made I like quite a bit.

Yall trying to act like it's the same level of bad as the movie are actively delusional and need to take of the nostalgia goggles.

[lucianalight]

hmm not really happy with some of the artistic choices, especially in terms of characterization and character arcs of the four main characters.

Gorden and Dallas' acting is best among the four which make their characters more interesting.

I liked Aang and Gayatso's interactions though("you will always be my friend"😭).