#Who is the 'true' villain of undertale

[thegirlsarethriving]

just finished undertale. ok i see the vision. i now understand yall's Sans-to-Benrey obsession pipeline. and the Papyrus-to-Tommy Coolatta pipeline

[howlsofbloodhounds]

Book anon here (the one who sent you that book link)

What the hell is up with fandoms always villainizing trafficking victims

Ex: Killer, Eveline (from resident evil), (there's probably more but I can't think of any...)

Like, I think people forget that people actually go through those things.

I don’t know anything about Resident Evil or Eveline, so I can’t say for certain on that character’s case or that games’ fandom.

I also could say what I think about some things about irl people about irl trafficking, such as the lack of knowledge or knowledge being based on certain media portrayals that make them forget that trafficking is a real thing with real people hurting and exploiting and killing real people. Ruining real lives.

But because it’s about fandom, I’ll focus on that. I wasn’t there when Killer was being developed and gaining popularity, I came after Rahaf quit and deleted a lot of things. So this is mostly speculation.

For Killer, I think it’d be important to remember two things: he’s a character associated with the UTMV/Undertale AU/Sans AU fandom, which is also associated with Undertale and the character Sans. Most of Undertale’s fandom were kids went it came out, and still were when fandoms for Undertale AUs were made.

Most kids don’t understand what trafficking is. Killer is named Killer, and he is an alternative timeline of a Sans who made a Deal with the human to kill everyone else, and he is associated with the big bad Nightmare Sans and the evil/bad Sanses gang and they hurt and kill people. And so he’s a villain.

And number two: there was a lot of misinformation spread about Killer in the fandom, possibly starting in the early days after Rahaf made and posted her first Something New comics.

Killer gained popularity within the fandom that Rahaf never expected or anticipated, and people wanted to see more content of Killer. And so Rahaf started making more Killer and Something New content.

Some were obviously thoughts and ideas she had/made herself with her character (possibly when working alongside or talking to other active Creators at the time like JokuBlog and Superyoumna, taking part in conversations, collab comics/series like Sans Hazard, and possibly roleplays), and some when fans gave her an idea or requested something.

For example, the comic where Nightmare hurts one of Killer’s cats was in response to an anonymous asker requesting something about “nightmare being angry at his team.”

This means there could’ve been gaps of time between old and new content, giving fans time to speculate, headcanon, and write or draw their own stuff involving Killer that would likely gain attention from those who wanted more content with that specific character.

This all could have led to the spread of misinformation, people confusing headcanons and personal interpretations that got popular as completely canon and true, and this is something Rahaf eventually started supporting.

Giving vague answers to questions about killers canon character and story, dismissing canon even as she kept stating some canon facts about killer and making official content.

Seemingly not realizing that this only frustrated and confused some people, and led to arguments involving conflicting information that each party believed was the truth.

It also can’t be overlooked the effect joku seemed to have had on the fandom perceptions of killer, with her interpretation of killer in Dreamtale.

Thats where we get things like “killer joined nightmare willingly,” “killer doesn’t want to feel,” “nightmare takes away killers emotions and that’s why his soul is like that,” “nightmare is killers savior and he’s helping him in his own way,” etc.

I suspect there’s a lot of ideas about killer that were accepted as fact that can somehow be tied back to joku and her interpretation, or potentially the times where joku and rahaf collaborated on things with their characters.

Like, up until about 3-4 years ago no one even seemed to know that Nightmare kidnapped Killer and that Killer did all of Nightmare’s dirty work because he thought that there would be absolutely no hope—he was hopeless. I didn’t even know this as I was gathering canon info until someone sent me a link to the comic.

No one even knew about Killer’s other 3 SOUL Stages. No one knew that his timeline wasn’t destroyed or gone, no one knew that Papyrus was still alive and looking for his brother—Sans.

No one knew about Color, Othertale, or his friendship with Killer. No one knew there was an official Good Ending where Killer turned on Nightmare and left the gang with Color.

No one knew that there was an official alternate ending where Killer turned on the human and gained control of the Reset, and the one person I spoke to who did know this a few years back told me that Killer was still an awful person because he proceeded to go on his own multiple mass Genocides after.

That he only stopped when he got bored and joined/left his timeline with Nightmare to go kill more people.

(Sometimes the other reasons given for why he left and joined Nightmare is that his timeline is completely barren after a Genocide and he’s the only one left and can’t Reset himself, that his timeline was destroyed somehow, that he agreed to join/do a deal because he wants something new. Logical and decent reasoning, but doesn’t seem to be what his creator depicted.)

They couldn’t provide any official proof or evidence by or from rahaf to support this claim, and I have yet to find any. What I did find was that, after gaining the Reset and turning on the human, it’s implied that he’s going to do/did awful things to the human specifically—that he was going to make them suffer. And possibly spammed the Reset button to keep doing it to them.

After that, Killer is in Stage 1 the next time we see him. He’s more like the Sans we know than he’s likely been since he woke up in that bed of golden flowers as a different person. He goes to tell Papyrus goodbye, that he’s leaving and Papyrus can’t come with him.

He pushes Papyrus away when Papyrus hugs him and shortcuts away, says something like Papyrus doesn’t need him, ignores his brother calling his name, and the next we see him he’s standing over Chara’s bloody dead body.

Talking about he’s going to fix what he and the human did, give Papyrus a happy ending, and we later learn he was going to somehow erase himself after the Reset. Then Nightmare shows up, ruins everything, takes Killer’s choice, hope, and—what he viewed at the time—“happiness” away.

The things we all know now about Killer and UT: SN was not widespread fandom knowledge even five years ago, during a time where most in the fanbase were children who didn’t know or understand what trafficking was or what it could look like or how it effects victims, was engaging in content for a fandom that is known for not having strict ‘canons’ and readily & easily accessible info to said canon, and was exposed to conflicting information and different interpretations.

Like Killer, they could not tell what was or wasn’t “real.”

On other matters not specific to Killer, I also just think people don’t know or understand what certain types of abuse—even outside of trafficking—can look like more than we think, or—a lot of people don’t realize that something is abuse, and what could “count” as abuse.

In Killer’s case, in regards to the moments leading up to the first proposal of the Deal to the moment Sans accepted it in one outcome, people did not even know or recognize this as abuse, physical emotional and psychological torture (killed and brutalized when said no (aka hurt or punished for saying no in general), constant resetting, gaslit, made to doubt and question self & intentions & reality & emotions & thoughts & wants, watch loved ones be hurt or killed, being isolated from loved ones, etc), coercion, even arguably “brainwashing” and conditioning.

Hell, Sans himself didn’t recognize what was happening to him. He thought that because he agreed to the Deal, that human wasn’t “forcing” him to do anything despite what Alphys thought.

Doesn’t matter that the human (Player) still held the Reset button, control over everything and everyone in the entire timeline (game), and didn’t matter that he never wanted it before, didn’t matter what happened anytime he said no or rejected them. He said yes eventually, right. Just needed some..convincing.

He came around, eventually, and started seeing things from our (Player) perspective.

And maybe kids reading all that at the time, especially before the comic revealing the Player’s influence, took that all uncritically at face value.

Could even go into topics like the idea of the “perfect victim” and how that could effect these types of characters who aren’t considered “perfect” victims, or are both bad people and victims at the same time, but it’s probably getting too long already.

Now as to why else people would be villainizing Killer now, with what most of us know, I’m not exactly sure. His treatment of Swap specifically is one reason I can think of, Papyrus too.

And his treatment of others’ souls + his potentially perceived disrespect towards the remains of the dead + potentially unethical experiments + plus him calling what he does to Swap ‘fun’ + his treatment of Dream. And him keeping blood and monster dust and souls in jars potentially viewed a serial killer keeping trophies of his kills + potential blood drinking.

[haveyouseenthisskeleton]

SO works at an animal shelter and our skeleton walks in once and is now ever animal in the shelters favorite person

SO is really jealous

Undertale Sans - Well sorry not sorry about that. What can he say? He's very popular. You told him you were concerned about what type of skeleton he is. Now it's pretty clear he must be some kind of gigantic sloth skeleton or something. Every animal wants to nap on him.

Undertale Papyrus - Papyrus is actually a little overwhelmed by all the dogs around him. He doesn't know who he hasn't pet yet and it's stressing him out knowing one dog might feel less loved than the other ones. He doesn't care about what you think right now, he's too focused on trying to understand why terrible people would abandon such sweet babies. By the end of the day, he's asking you to adopt one.

Underswap Sans - He swears he did nothing, stop looking at him like that! He didn't even know that guinea pigs, which are neither from guinea or pigs, were a thing! He's lying in the enclosure, entirely covered with guinea pigs and he's not regretting anything. They're all squishy!

Underswap Papyrus - If I were you, I wouldn't be jealous about that. You should worry about how the hell you're going to convince your giant golden retriever of a boyfriend to go home without his 150 new dog babies. Honey never wants to leave again. That's his people. What do you mean he can't take all of them home? You can't let them sleep in this horrible place in the dark! That's abuse! What is they cry and no one hears them? D: He's devastated when you drag him out of there, begging you to at least take one home or he could never forgive himself lol. He's going to guilt trip you for weeks to get his fourth dog and he's not going to change his mind so good luck with that.

Underfell Sans - He's a bit uncomfortable, a lot of parrots on his arms and on his head. He doesn't understand why you're mad, he's literally terrified to move right now. Please take them back? Red is not exactly an animal person, not with birds at least, and he's a little confused right now. He's not sure how to escape this situation.

Underfell Papyrus - What? You're jealous? Good! He's a volunteer in a rescue as well and he told you he had a nice touch with the cats. Now you can see how true this is because he is clearly the best in all he does. Cry like a loser while he pets all the cats like an epic villain. Don't you know cats prefer scary people because they are better at protecting them from predators? You swear he just invented that. You're so mad.

Horrortale Sans - Well, you saw how the animals are all attracted to him in the farm so it's not a bit surprise all the dogs and cats are dying to come to see him. Even the most fearful dogs are all crawling on his lap to get affection. He just sits in the dog playroom while you work and have fun with the little furbabies. You wish you could do the same.

Horrortale Papyrus - He acts smug and silly because he likes to tease you, but you can see he's actually really happy about that. He didn't have that much love in a long time and even if it's little rabbits and not humans or monsters, he's happy. He even sits on the floor to stay with them and it's quite a while now, to the point you're a bit concerned about his back. But he's too happy to disturb him for now. He can have that moment.

Swapfell Sans - You can't believe it honestly. Chinchillas only choose one special person and somehow it's Nox. You wanted to be their special person! That's so unfair, you're trying to socialize them for weeks! Nox acts like he doesn't care and all but you surprise him by searching the internet to see what he needs to buy to take care of chinchillas. He's not asking you by the way. He's taking them home.

Swapfell Papyrus - You stop watching him for two minutes and then he comes in the room holding a huge raccoon in his hands and asks you to adopt him. You're so confused. There's literally no raccoon in your shelter??? Where the hell did it come from??? Rus is very proud of himself though. And he's definitely getting home with that thing, either you say yes or no. He's ready to squeeze it in his ribcage.

Fellswap Gold Sans - Wine is not happy. He has cat hair everywhere on his handmade suit and he's slowly dying inside. He hates cats. He hates all animals really, why the hell are they clinging to him like that? He's distressed and keeps staring at his S/O intensely to have some help. Unfortunately, you're way too amused to come and save him. It's rare to see Wine lose his mind.

Fellswap Gold Papyrus - You let him have his fun. Coffee is crying right now, buried under a pile of big dogs. He's a bit overwhelmed and can't control his feelings anymore. All you can see are his two arms, trying to hug as many dogs as he can. He's never getting out of the pile. It's the best day of his life.

[gamequoteshowdown]

Quote 1: "Ah. Your prejudice made my bluff too effective, I see. … besides, even IF I threw him, he would just… Bounce. My son… is… A bouncy little pumpkin." - Spade King, Deltarune

Quote 2: ���To my people, I am a hero… to you? I’m the bad guy!” - Spade King, Deltarune

Propaganda under cut

Quote 1: i like this quote because in chapter 1 it felt like the game was distinguishing itself from undertale by featuring an antagonist who really was just evil, and the scene he's referring to here was a big part of that, but this comment totally recontextualizes it. it's still kind of a dick move, but at least he wasn't actually putting his son in any danger

Quote 2: Spade King is an awesome guy, and this quote is probably the coolest part of the chapter. It’s a direct callback to Lancer’s fight at the start of the game, but with a completely different tone. Spade King is the first person to be a true threat to you and this quote shows that well, and it just generally fucks hard. Spade King is a cooler villain than people give him credit for and i will die on this hill

@microwavingtoniii

[captainkawaii666]

So I saw a Deltarune theory video (I don't remember what it was called specifically but if I do I'll link it), and it wasn't actually about who the Knight would be specifically, but the Knight did come up and they said they thought it would be Knight Knight, which at first I was a bit skeptical of, but like

C'mon look at her

She's literally a knight

The symbol on her mace looks like a Titan eye

She has night/darkness theming (moon on helmet, chest area looks owl-esque)

You beat her by putting her to sleep, which brings to mind the Pacify spell

One of her battle flavor texts is "Knight Knight's armor emits a dark sheen", further associating her with darkness- specifically darkness that somehow still glows, like the fountains

Another one of her battle flavor texts is "Smells like stardust" which can be vaguely associated with the SAVE stars, which are tied to Determination (which is required to open fountains) in Undertale, and the Titans in Deltarune

The battle start flavor text is "Mercenaries emerge from the shadows", which provides her yet another association with darkness- although interestingly enough, this is only used when she's accompanied by Madjick

When encountered by herself, the battle start flavor text is "Knight Knight blocks the way!", flavor text which is shared between only her and bosses

She roars when you hit her, and the Knight's full title is the Roaring Knight (this one specifically is like the biggest reach ever but there's so much other stuff here that I might as well bring it up)

She's heavily connected with Shyren, who has several of her own ties to darkness and Dark Worlds

She summons the sun and moon- representations of light and darkness- for her attacks

Going back to her mace, it's called the Good Morningstar- Morningstar is another name for Lucifer, tying her to Gaster due to his satanic theming

She's referred to in the code as "Final Knight"

Her sprite is referred to in the code as a "dragon"- this further associates her with Gaster (Dragon- villain's second in command) and the Roaring (the dragon of the apocalypse)

She talks without a dialogue bubble, with her text just appearing on screen (this isn't much, but it is reminiscent of the dialogue during the Goner Maker sequence)

Speaking of her dialogue, she has no sound effect that plays alongside it- the only other spoken dialogue in either game this is true of (unless I'm forgetting something) is the last bit of the Goner Maker, where someone who is most likely not Gaster since it was almost definitely him for the rest of the sequence says "Will now be discarded. No one can choose who they are in this world. Your name is..."

She definitely seems like she could be strong enough to beat King in a fight, and with her preferred fighting style being "summon meteors and solar flares and smash the shit out of everything with her mace", it would certainly explain the state of his throne room

Queen refers to the Knight as "it", and while that may just be her using gender-neutral terms, Knight Knight is also referred to as "it" by some flavor text (she/it queen!!)

She's associated with sleep and dreams, and the Nightmare Knight leitmotif has appeared in a few Deltarune songs- mostly ones associated with entering a Dark World (it's also widely assumed that Nightmare Knight, or a song heavily reusing its leitmotifs and stuff the way Metal Crusher did for Noisemaster, will be the Knight's theme, but this is pure speculation so that's not really important)

And while this is most of the evidence I have of her potentially being the Knight, I'm fairly certain I could find even more if I really went digging (although most of it would probably be of the more tenuous variety)

[halogenwarrior]

I get why people might dislike it but I really like the juxtaposition of a character or organization whose ideal of heroism/duty/etc. is very flawed and often leads to them being somewhat of a villain being just the heroic figure needed in one particular situation/context. Not if it's done badly (in a way which is I think the reason a lot of people don't like that) where the one time their actions really were noble and heroic in context being used to justify the rest, like "oh these cops are bigoted and used as a tool of oppression but we all have to admire and accept them anyway because sometimes they really do go after dangerous criminals and thus save people". But when it's an honest exploration, without trying to justify anything, of the situational and contextual nature of heroism and how the same attitude and ideology that can be brilliant and beautiful in the exact right context can be horrific in other contexts, it often feels way more interesting and human than the typical standard where everyone possessing the traits of determination, duty and self-sacrifice traditionally associated with heroism either also conveniently has perfect moral instincts to never use those for the wrong cause or is only ever wrong and villainous and never comes into a situation where the problem their code/ideology demands them to oppose is something that actually should be opposed. (And this is all probably downstream of the trope where sympathetic prosecutors only prosecute guilty people and sympathetic defense attorneys only defend innocent people and vice versa for unsympathetic ones, that is everyone either having to have perfect or always wrong moral instincts). There's even something somewhat tragic and bittersweet and ironic about it, that these people are so flawed and misguided but now, at this particular moment, their way of seeing and acting is the world is what is needed to stop something horrible even if it costs them everything, (even if perhaps the reason things were broken in the first place was the very ethos they followed).

Which is all to say I think it's a feature not a bug that Undyne in Undertale gets called a "true hero" in her genocide theme and that's completely true, she is using all of her virtues of determination and self-sacrifice to give her all against an existential threat for the sake of everyone she loves, but it's ALSO true that she uses those same traits to justify equally going against a child who did nothing wrong in the pacifist route and rationalizing a narrative that makes them the villain she can play the hero role against. It's not a confused narrative morality or making a character "unintentionally unsympathetic", it's just using the ability of video games having multiple routes to explore the contextual nature of heroism and how "heroism" can be simultaneously an excuse for cruelty and completely worthy of that name in the same person depending on what exactly they are directing it towards.

[justali-anne]

Thought Week: Flowey

Flowey is apparently the most popular character right now! And while that is really intriguing, I'm not surprised! He's one of the most complex and most tragic characters in the entire game. So, here are my thoughts about him.

(BTW, if you want to share your thoughts on Flowey, please reblog and share them! I love it when people come together to talk about a certain character, it brings a sense of community and I REALLY want to be a part of that. So please, reblog!)

(Also, the subheadings are gonna be colour-coded based on the character. I love colour-coded characters with a passion.)

First Impressions

I first encountered Flowey during my MLP phase when I was 11. I was watching a Fluttershy Plays Undertale Let's Play, and to be honest, I didn't think much of Flowey at first. To me, he was just the meanie that tricked Fluttershy into running into his friendliness pellets. I was more focused on Fluttershy, to be honest.

However, that is my earliest memory of Undertale. My first exposure to Undertale, funnily, wasn't Sans. It was Flowey. Well, Fluttershy, but Flowey was the first Undertale character I ever saw. Toriel was the second.

And I only just saw Flowey as a cheeky flower with a thirst for blood. I didn't look into him as anything more than that. Not until I got into Undertale as a 16 year old, anyway.

When I actually did get into the Undertale fandom and learned about his backstory, I thought, "Oh. That's a cool character. A sad one, but cool nonetheless." He was interesting, but not my favourite. I liked his sassiness and his tragic side and his creativity, but other than that, there just wasn't a lot I could say about him.

My Thoughts Now

Frick, I love this guy! Not as much as the Skelebros, but he's by far one of the most interesting characters in the whole game! While there wasn't a lot I could say about him in the past, there's definitely a lot I can say about him now!

By the way, I'm going to talk about Asriel here too, since I consider them to be the same person. Well... They are, but I think people tend to forget that.

One of my favourite things about Flowey (and Asriel) is that he's actually a genuinely creative person! He's creative in such a childlike manner, and I find that so very charming. Some of his incredible creations include things like...

Photoshop Flowey!

And the God of Hyperdeath!

Just look at this kid go!!!!! He is clearly a creative genius!!!!

No, but seriously, he gives heavy edgy 12-year-old vibes, and that just works so well, Toby Fox is so good at writing complex characters, it's just... AJEJHFHSJSJG. ...!?:.

It really hammers home that Flowey is a CHILD. He is a child who never got to grow up, who went through something insanely traumatic, who misses his best friend, whose loneliness has driven him to commit terrible acts just to FEEL SOMETHING. I used to see Flowey as a sadistic villain! But now it's just... sad. Sad and nuanced.

Even Flowey isn't all evil. Heck, I have a hard time even seeing him as evil anymore. He's definitely a bad guy, but he's just so... tragic.

Honestly, I think people often forget about Flowey's ability to be GOOD despite his lack of compassion. He is capable of making good choices! Mostly during the True Mercy ending, but even without a SOUL, Flowey is still capable of being nice. And that is another thing I like about him, and something I feel like should be discussed more often.

This is only one example.

Flowey and Asriel

There's a lot more I can say about him, but these are the first things that pop into mind when I think of him. He's such a sad character, it's not even funny. Personally, when I write him, I like to write him as very nuanced. His psychology is what I'm most interested in. The same can be said for a lot of characters, though.

To me, Flowey and Asriel are two sides of the same coin. Simultaneously, I see them as the same person. They represent periods in his life. Asriel for the simpler, happier times, before everything went to shit (excuse my language), and Flowey as the traumatised result of that shit.

And no matter what he does...

He can never get those simpler times back. And that's why Asriel can't stay...

People always talk about Asriel as this sweet-hearted, innocent crybaby, but I think that Flowey gives hints as to what he was really like in life. He was someone who would do anything to make his best friend happy, who liked to engage in mischief, who was a sore loser. And yes, I still think he was a kind-hearted soul... When he had a soul. I still think Flowey has some shades of kindness in there. Some emotions too.

Flowey ISN'T emotionless. I think we know that already, though. Throughout the game, Flowey displayed emotions like frustration, fear, excitement, sadness and grief. He GRIEVED for the loss of his compassion. For the loss of his best friend. But eventually, he just became numb to it, especially after he got the RESET ability.

Oh...

The Narrative

Flowey is up there as one of the most important characters in the entirety of Undertale. That is just a fact.

Story-wise, his death, as well as Chara's, set in motion the series of events that led to what the Underground is like by the time Frisk falls down. It created a whole domino effect! If it weren't for Asriel's death, Asgore would have never made that policy, Toriel would have never retreated to the Ruins, Alphys wouldn't have done those experiments, Sans wouldn't have found an anomaly in the timeline, and so on.

In a meta sense, Flowey is also the most important character, especially when it comes to resets and time loops. Imagine having the power to do whatever you want and take away the consequences. It sounds exciting, but eventually, you just grow numb to it all. Perhaps you'd want to try something different. Something more... extreme. He reflects the player in such a terrifying way, although I can argue that he had more freedom than Frisk because Frisk is literally being controlled by us, and in terms of exploration, we don't really stray off the path that much. But Flowey could go anywhere, do anything, and that's what makes him more scary.

Also, I've just had a thought. In typical RPG games, you come across enemies and bosses that you have to defeat (usually by killing or dismantling), and if you fail to do that, you die. "Kill or be killed".

And that's why Flowey's so important. If it weren't for Flowey, we wouldn't have Undertale the way it is. He's more than just the main villain, he's a representation of a player who's been playing the same game for far, far too long.

Conclusion

I like Flowey! He's not my favourite, but I can see why he would be to a lot of people. His tragedy, his creativity, and his role in the narrative are the three things that stick out to me about him the most.

But most of all... I love that he's essentially a bratty, traumatised kid.

I haven't covered every single aspect about Flowey, but this is just thoughts about him, this isn't an analysis or anything.

If you want to add your thoughts about Flowey, please please please please PLEASE add them in the notes! I wanna see people come together to talk about a character, it would be so cool!

See you tomorrow with Papyrus!

[iukasylvie]

The Forgotten Cult: How Undertale's Monster Kingdom Turned Two Dead Children into Nationalist Propaganda and Nobody Noticed

Introduction: A Tale of Two Children

Undertale is beloved for its subversive storytelling, quirky charm, and heartbreaking themes—but in its deepest tragedy, many fans have overlooked one of its darkest threads: how the monster kingdom turned Chara and Asriel, two dead children, into symbols of cult-like nationalist propaganda to justify hatred, war, and genocide.

This post explores how Chara and Asriel's memories were co-opted by New Home to fuel Asgore's campaign against humanity—how these children were transformed from real, suffering individuals into sanitized myths. We'll compare this narrative blind spot to how fans more easily recognize systemic indoctrination in characters like:

N (Pokémon Black and White), who was raised to be a messianic figure by a cult (Team Plasma) under Ghetsis' manipulation,

Zeke Yeager (Attack on Titan), caught between two nationalist cults (Marley and the Eldian Restorationists),

and Akito Sohma (Fruits Basket), molded by her father Akira and the Sohma family's cult-like Zodiac mythology into a tyrant.

So why doesn't Chara and Asriel's tragedy get the same critical lens?

Part I: "You Are the Future of Humans and Monsters" — Asgore and the Creation of a Myth

"You have to stay determined! You can't give up... You are the future of humans and monsters..." —Asgore to Chara

Asgore's line in the True Pacifist Route is heartbreaking—not because it's loving, but because it's blind. He places the weight of a kingdom's future on the shoulders of a suicidal child, utterly unaware of Chara's deep despair and hatred toward humanity. It's an act of desperate hope built on ignorance. And it's the beginning of myth-making.

After Chara's death, Asgore declares war.

After Asriel's death, monsters treat him as a tragic martyr.

And after Flowey's resurrection, his existence is erased and unacknowledged.

This is not just grief. It's systematic mythologizing—an entire kingdom rallying around a story that dehumanizes the very children it supposedly honors.

Part II: Chara the Scapegoat, Asriel the Prince — The Inversion of Identity

Chara, a child who arrived for an "unhappy reason," orchestrated their own death out of hope for monster liberation—and hatred for humanity. But the monsters of New Home reduce Chara to "the first human who fell down" and erase all nuance of their identity, while raising Asriel to sainthood.

The cruelty of this narrative is doubled when we consider:

Chara was trying to give monsters hope and freedom, even if through a morally complicated plan.

Asriel refused to harm anyone, choosing mercy over vengeance.

The result? Both children die, and the monsters use their legacy to justify vengeance.

No one asks why the Dreemurr family, a ruling monarchy, got to define the meaning of Chara and Asriel's deaths—and use that meaning to manipulate future generations.

Part III: Echoes Across Media — N, Zeke, and Akito

N was raised to be "the Hero of Ideals/Truth," crowned in a ritual by Team Plasma, and used by Ghetsis to project moral authority. Fans immediately recognized the cult-like pageantry of Team Plasma.

Zeke Yeager was indoctrinated by the Eldian Restorationists and later by Marley, used as a tool to perpetuate their ideologies. The manga frames Zeke's tragedy within systemic brainwashing and generational trauma.

Akito Sohma was told she was the "God" of the Zodiac, the only one loved unconditionally, while Kyo (the Cat) was condemned from birth. The story critically explores how these myths turned Akito into an abuser.

Yet Chara and Asriel? They are often treated by fans as a "secret villain" and a "tragic prince," respectively, with little interrogation of how the monster kingdom turned them into symbols of hatred and nationalism.

Why the discrepancy?

Part IV: Why Nobody Noticed

Undertale wears a cute, quirky skin. Its pixel art and irreverent humor lull players into seeing it as less politically charged than it is.

Sans became the fandom's mascot. His story is easier to meme than Chara's despair or Flowey's trauma.

Asgore and Toriel are "nice." Fans often resist critiquing well-intentioned adult figures, even when their ignorance causes enormous harm.

The myth-making is off-screen. Most of the monsters never directly mention Chara or Flowey. The propaganda is in the silence, the gaps in what's said.

Moral ambiguity is uncomfortable. It's easier to paint Chara as evil or Flowey as broken than to face the complexity of children burdened by a world that projected salvation onto their backs.

Conclusion: A World That Forgot Its Children

In the end, Flowey is left to rot, abandoned by the kingdom that once mourned "the prince."

Chara is demonized, or erased entirely.

And Asgore still thinks he's a good king.

If anything, Undertale's greatest horror is not the Genocide Route—it's the silent, unchallenged system of myth and grief that turned two dead children into weapons, narratives, and excuses.

It's a tragedy that most players still haven't noticed.

[temfling]

DELTARUNE: MOTU PATLU THEORY

THATS RIGHT BABY!! IM BACK WITH THE THEORIES!! I couldn’t just stop at chapter… I dunno six! Yeah, I may have solved the Susies Inside chapter, but what about Chapter 3?? Well I got news for you guys…

Motu. And Patlu. Never heard of them? What are you, living under a rock or something… well… it’s a Hindi cartoon that’s really popular overseas… but wait. That’s the POINT! Your not SUPPOSED to know it… because it’s discarded…

So Every secret boss so far has a habit of being a darkner based on discarded/Forgotten/Unwanted items… well. How many people in the states know this cartoon? Not very many,,, even though it’s great… so could Motu and Patlu be what the next secret boss is based off of? Let’s see gamers…

EVIDENCE ONE: BIG GUY SKINNY GUY

Comedy duos, you know them, you love them. Woody, Buzz. Mario, Luigi. Bob, Larry. But what does this have to do with Motu and Patlu… erm guys… notice anything about most of them?! Mario, Buzz, Bob, and Motu: bulky big guys. Luigi, Larry, Woody, and Patlu: tall, thin guys… oh my goodness!! Motu and patlu ALSO fit that theme… “But how does this fit in with Deltarune chapter 3?!” Your asking… oh my gosh guys this is too easy!!

erm… Sans and Papyrus, the most iconic comedy duo next to none, is also bulky and thin. Guys?? Notice anything?? I think THIS proves that they’ll use blue soul… and that they’ll be cannon!! But need more proof?? SAY NO MORE:

On the left is Sans and Papyrus’s House, and on the right is Motu and Palau’s. Notice the similarity’s?? I do…

Maybe the Motu and Patlu secret boss could be a duo, and make fun of the whole trope of smart guy who does all the work and lazy dumb guy… hrm…

EVIDENCE TWO: CHARACTER SIMILARITIES!

Okay so we already talked about how Sans and Motu and Papyrus and Patlu are BASICALLY the same guy, but if your STILL not convinced, I got more…

Rook. Mike. Whatever there gonna be, the main boss of Chapter 3 seems to be a cheater, a criminal of sorts… well… hehee… you know who ELSE is a criminal?? JHON THE DON. That’s RIGHT. The TRUE and NEO villain of Motu and Patlu, who’s the son of motu and patlu’s town. He’s always causing trouble with his lackeys around… could this mean that chapter 3’s main boss is based on the Villian of Motu and Patlu, while the secret boss is the good guys…?! No… no… erm… YES! It’s kind of OBVIOUS??

My theory is the main boss is gonna be Mike, now dubbed “The Don.” He must’ve not only backstabbed Soamton, but the chapter three secret boss… and Tenna will be… I dunno… probably his own character.

Anyways, Gaster. “Gaster? This crazy guy who does bad things?” You may be asking what GASTER has to do with this theory… heh… well, gaster in undertale was the Royal Scientist, right? Well… erm… somebody pull up Motu Patlu Wiki!

He’s a SCIENTIST… who doesn’t treat his PATIENTS well… sounds familiar…

Dr. Jhakta also uses Motu and Patlu as Guinea Pigs for his work. Gaster uses darkners and does stuff that’s evil… or whatever. I think. I dunno BUT THE POINT IS GASTER MUST'VE LIKE EXPERIMENTED ON THE SECRET BOSS WHICH CAUSED THEM TO GO INSANE!! Erm…!!! Yes!!

FINAL PART: WHAT OBJECT ARE THEY

So at first I thought they could be like a bootleg DVD or whatever. But wait guys… remember where the chapters dark world is…

And then think about what Motu is known for. Dumb… lazy… but also, when he eats his favorite FOOD he gets super STRONG… wait. FOOD?! Guys what’s in houses? Kitchens… guys… what’s motus favorite food…??

SAMOSAS. THE DISCARDED OBJECT IS LIKE FROZEN SAMOSAS IN THE FRIDGE OR SOMETHING!!!

and if your STILL. Not. convinced… here’s some stuff

Yeah yeah yeah bye

[wonderfull-star]

Me before watching season 1 of Undervese fully: Wow, it's Ink! The well-known funny skeleton artist! Yes, he is also on the same side with the Classic, Fell and Swap! And he'll definitely be on their side until the very end of the season, right? Right…?

Me after watching the season 1 fully: What the hell is going on in this series??! Who is the hero and who is the villain??! And why did an incomprehensible, terrifying inky demonic creature straight from the deepest depths of hell stare straight into my soul??

Even Nightmare was a little scared! Although I didn’t expect this from him. Of course, I saw a lot of videos where Ink is depicted as soulless with an evil, scary face, but I still didn’t expect such a large-scale betrayal. Ink is a real scammer. When I watched the episodes, Error seemed MUCH more sane to me. At least he was doing his job all along. Error even concluded a truce with Ink and canceling of which Ink was to blame. What did Ink do throughout the series? Yes, anything but definitely NOT the protection of au’s. Oh yes, I remembered! For him it's just a game! And no, I’m not discussing the problem of the plot, but rather its merits. Like.. Yes, yes! This is what I expected! They showed us what Ink really is like without his paints. And that is, that person on which it is definitely better NOT to rely. Not only because of his memory problems and many oddities, but also because, having lost his paints, he will simply not care about anyone(well,even with emotions, sometimes Ink doesn’t care either). When I looked at the moments with Error I was like: what’s wrong? I've seen many people portray him as a crazy psychopath (well maybe a little) while Ink is portrayed as a "hero". However, I had mixed feelings while watching it. While at least Error was fulfilling his purpose, Ink sometimes did all sorts of nonsense, pretending to be a “good guy” and disappearing at the most inopportune moment. Error didn’t even intend to touch anyone at first. Until, of course, Ink and Fresh came to interfere and started acting like idiots. Now I don’t even remember why at one point Ink came to Error (when he was just watching Undernovela). Probably just to torment him (as he usually does in company with Fresh). Fresh is just added here for background. For the beauty and aesthetics of the series, so to speak. And Error basically like a punching bag. Now I don’t understand why Nightmare still hasn’t joined all this “fun” of Ink and Fresh. I'm sure that there are more negative emotions in Error himself than in all multiverses. Oh, yes, then there would be such an exciting plot where Nightmare carries poor XChara, exhausted and beaten by life, across all the damn multiverses for the sake of his sadistic pleasure (Nightmare, your true goal is in the anti-void,tho).

I just feel sorry for Classic, Fell and Swap. They were the most suffered by what was happening. In Undertale, everyone was waiting for Sans to finally come to a stupid picnic, while Cross deleted Fell’s whole damn Snowdin, and for Swap, his entire universe was destroyed while its inhabitants were in a stolen Underfell's Snowdin and stood motionless like mannequins in an abandoned clothing store 💀

What a funny Undertale cartoon 😊

[daydreaming-scheming-demon]

i know undertale is like, almost a decade old at this point, even older if you count the kickstarter’s age, but i still cant get over how flowey/asriel is literally such a cool fucking character. he’s like a player that plays a game too many times and stops being able to see the characters as people as their brain sees them acting the same and doing the same things on each replay and how he loses his sympathy bc of that. and this makes him come across as a typical pure evil antagonist at first, but then you learn his backstory, and it’s all just, aghhhhhhhh. and then you learn in the genocide route that he helped people at first, he used to be kind, but he got bored, and how that contrasts the player on the genocide route with flowey, the genocide route where the player is now in the role of the pure evil villain, just like flowey was.

and also i love how the guy is literally just an edgy kid. like, he comes across as an adult at first, but the guy’s just like one of those cynical little kids who only wants to see the worst in everything. and how that’s portrayed in the true pacifist route where he gives himself this edgy name and transformation sequence that feels like something a kid would come up with. tho the idea that he’s a kid does kinda come into question when you consider all the resets he’s been on, but even still he never got to grow up.

i wanna hug this lil dude so badly, even in flower form, he deserves a hug.

i fucking love this dude, he’s kinda like a pure evil antagonist, but actually has a backstory that makes you feel sorry for him and make his actions feel understandable, even if he can feel like some insane cartoon supervillain, his actions still feel reasonable with his backstory in mind. it’s like taking the idea of an unrealistically evil villain and asking yourself what couldve possibly made them that way

and his whole life as asriel with chara as a sibling. aghhhhhhhh, i love it.

and how in the beginning of the game he probably hasnt even realized his powers are missing yet, and that may just be a small thing but i find it a fun small recontextualization. that in this moment where you seem like you’re falling into his trap, he doesnt even realize that you have far more power over him than he thinks. and something i never even really thought about for a while is how he probably had a bit of a mental breakdown realizing his powers are missing sometime between your first and second time meeting him, and how he probably had to get himself all ready to talk with you again and come across as confident and threatening. like, there’s no way he just brushed off the fact that his powers are missing so easily, his plan to use you to retrieve the souls probably helped him feel better, but there’s no way this dude just brushed off losing the powers he’s been relying on for who knows how long so easily. he definitely got all angry and scared at his missing powers sometime between your first and second meeting, for at least a little while.

honestly, i feel like undertale didnt have enough of him. he deserved more screentime imo. which is why i was really happy to see his characterizationin done so well in undertale yellow, i fucking loved how that game built on his character. and his whole boss fight in that game somehow outdoing his boss fights in the original game. and how a lot of his attacks involve self harm in some way. and how he acts as the save points for the game so you get to hear a lot more from him throughout the game. i feel like undertale yellow gave me some characterization for him that i really fucking needed.

genuinely one of my favourite characters in all of fiction. would love to have a conversation with this lil guy.

[logan-but-not]

Okay, so I was replaying Deltarune with my brothers for the first time, and they came up with a really interesting theory. So you know how Kris rips out their soul at the end of each chapter, and they feel like a shallow husk? What if they literally are soulless? Like, what if our own soul, or at least our consciousness, replaced their's? That in of itself is not groundbreaking, but the implications of it is. Because we've always assumed that the hostile and violent personality that they show at the end of each chapter is the "real" kris. But what if that's not entirely true? Think back to Undertale, it states that the soul houses a person's love, hope, and compassion. And Flowey states that when he was living in his world he couldn't feel any love. So what if the Kris we see in those moments isn't a reflection of their true personality but a twisted and demented version of them with no love or hope. It would actually explain a lot of why Kris acts the way they do. From how they were talked about from the other hometown residents like Noelle and Rudy, they were never malicious, just kinda weird. And what if potentially at some point we help them to recover those emotions and discover who they really are? It would be such an interesting subversion of the narrative that Undertale told where the villain was the soulless monster. But this time, it's our own character.

Idk it was just something that caught my attention.

[sunder-the-gold]

Please name the best games that allowed you to become an anti-hero, the villain protagonist, or even just replace the antagonist as the true villain of the story

The communists in charge of Star Wars: Outlaws told themselves that they wanted you to play as a free-spirit rebel and pirate, but they were so terrified of actual misbehavior that they would only allow you to attack strong and wealthy targets. Because they cannot accept the idea that a criminal would EVER do the sensible thing and prey upon the weak, because that's the sort of thing that only The System does!

I know that in the first BioShock game, you could sacrifice the Little Sisters in the name of expediency, and this had some effect on the ending.

While you could argue that nothing you did could make you worse than the antagonist of BioShock, so that you would be an anti-hero at worst, you couldn't argue that the more heroic and moral path would be to spare the Little Sisters.

Mass Effect only went so far as to allow you to play the anti-hero with its "Renegade" path. You weren't allowed to do anything so bad that you became the biggest evil in the galaxy, but you were at least allowed to save the world while being an impulsive, rude, selfish asshole. If I have the right of it.

inFAMOUS and Prototype allowed you to play as either the most heroic your character could possibly be (given Alex's shitty circumstances and monstrous abilities) or as anti-hero like the Punisher or the worst interpretations of Batman. But I forget if you could ever just straight up replace the central villain as the world's biggest threat.

In Undertale, where the Pacifist Route and ending are unambiguously the most moral and heroic path you can take, and the Neutral route contains too many possibilities to generalize, but the Genocide Route has you become a villain antagonist without ANY 'greater scope villain' to serve as your antagonist. The monster Flowey doesn't even try to fight you, only the Biggest Damn Heroes among monsterkind.

Soul Nomad & The World Eaters also allows you to become the greatest scope villain, who ends the game by killing the universe. As well as lesser variations of villain-protagonist or anti-hero.

[random-autie-fangirl]

I make Chara posts

so here are a few of the longer/more notable ones

from the top:

about the buttercup plan 1. (5) My thoughts on the buttercup plan and the true lab tapes is like...yeah, Chara's being pushy and they are being manipulative.... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr,

2. (17) Because of Chara's wish to be "erased from existence", I cannot really consider their death (through buttercups) a sacrifice.... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

"that's the power you were trying to stop" (20) Determination - the power Chara was fighting to stop – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

oversealous judge child (30) I think with the message of Undertale basically being "everyone can be a good person if they just try". It makes sense that at... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

what path do they prefer? (50) "Chara wants you to fight and hates it when you spare" "Chara wants you to spare and hates it when you fight" Buddy, they most... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

and...when do they start helping? (55) Okay, the thing is that with the geno run, Chara only actually starts helping at the beginning of Snowdin, that's when they... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

do why know why Chara climbed the mountain? (65) There are enough lines that make it clear what Chara told Asriel their reason for climbing the mountain was that I am starting... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

Aaah, hubris...

(73) The most succinct way for me to describe my Chara is... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(86) Hubristic Asshole Fight – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr (this is a reblog)

A headcanon sheet!

(99+) Hey, Do you have any Chara headcanons? – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(99+) Hey, Do you have any Chara headcanons? – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(In two parts because I added stuff to the first post that doesn't show up on the reblog)

(99+) I think Chara never really believed in Asgore's idea of peace between humans and monsters while they were alive – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

What does Chara think of Flowey/Asriel post pacifist? (99+) In my opinion, Chara gets really close to forgiving Asriel for messing up their plan, really close to just admitting they made a... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

Black and white morality (99+) I think one thing many people would agree that Chara has is a rather black and white sense of who (or what's) good or bad. It's... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

Chara as embodiment of narration and statistics (99+) The holy quartet of video game narrators which are actually living beings (...and also kinda suck) – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

Deltarune stuff:

(99+) I have quite a few Chara related deltarune headcanons but what is possibly the funniest and (initially) easiest to explain thing... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(99+) Yes, I do genuinely believe Alvin to be the knight, and I believe Chara to be the angel/final villain (in the normal route, that... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(99+) With my personal view of Deltarune being after souless pacifist... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

(99+) My plan did not fail. Look around you, look at the monsters living up in the sunlight Hear about my brother, alive and well,... – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr (this is creative writing!)

Chara the scientist (99+) Chara the scientist – @random-autie-fangirl on Tumblr

[idksomethingclever99]

Here's my second post for Undertale today; Why doesn't Chara have a name? And furthermore, why does the player get to name them? Like, yeah, if you use the name Chara when starting a new game in Undertale, you get a bit of text calling it the True Name, but that's more or less a joke. In the True Pacificist route it has some weight with Asriel, as it shows him not really seeing Frisk as their own person and only seeing you, the player, metawise but also only seeing his dead sibling who means so much to him. But then, in the Genocide route, Chara shows up to kill you and end the world at the end using the name that you gave them, and like... What? I think that's a big part of why people got confused on who the villain of the Genocide route was. It was never the First Fallen Human, it was you, the player, who went out of their way to kill every monster you could find, and when this undead child shows up using the name we picked, taking about how they've returned to end the world, it does make a convenient scapegoat that took the fandom a few years to figure out. So, with all that being said, why was this done? Why do you decide what the Fallen Human's name is? Why do you name debatably the second most important character, and why is that same name used to refer to player, who is arguably the most important character in Undertale?

[its-a-me-mango]

So.. is mr puzzle is the new tumblr sexy man?

See here's the thing about tumblr sexymen, what REALLY defines one is how unexpected they are. While yes Mr Puzzles does fit the appearance and character for a Tumblr sexyman, it's kinda expected for him to be generally well liked by Tumblr (you know with the villain vibes, fancy suit, "i can fix him" backstory, etc.), so I will still consider him one based on fitting the criteria, but he's not a TRUE Tumblr sexyman to me.

Think of Undertale for example, that game has Mettaton, who feels like he'd be the perfect character to be a Tumblr sexyman, but who does everyone choose instead?

this fucking thing

It's all about the unexpected for genuine tumblr sexyman status, we've had Reigen, Tony the Clock, The Onceler, Cecil Palmer, Bill Cipher, Wheatley and more. None of those characters should be a Tumblr sexyman and yet they still are because enough people think they're hot in their own weird and fucked up way.

So yea, Mr Puzzles gets a half pass as a Tumblr sexyman, because it's expected for people on Tumblr to find him attractive but he would fit the criteria if he wasn't so obvious. A good Tumblr sexyman makes you go "WHO THE FUCK IS THINKING THIS GUY IS HOT????" lol