#We love the s4 sunfire elf plot

[imminent-danger-came]

"TDP s4 was really good" truthers let us come together and join hands

[raayllum]

Been thinking about it partially as I come closer to it in fanon S6 / divergences where what I'm writing (in prose with zero constraints) vs what I think the show is actually more likely to do (such as in this case) with the Celestial elves because like

If we look at it just from a storytelling standpoint, there's a few things we want to take into consideration.

Why Skywing elves?

Despite being an aspiring and then full fledged Sky mage for most of the series (5 seasons) as his defining... career trait? with Ocean only added at the end, Callum's attachment to the Sky arcanum is incredibly important from a thematic standpoint. I talked about this in more detail in terms of how TDP writes from theme to begin with, but it would not surprise me if a lot of the series fell into place after decisions were made regarding "mage boy has Sky-Freedom powers" and "big endgame big bad is Stars and Destiny embodied," i.e. like what kind of dragon Zym would be in order for Callum to have a reason to sacrifice his primal stone, why have Callum learn Sky magic first, etc etc.

The Celestial Elves, presumably, could've been any group of elves. We know from Tales of Xadia that Sunfire elves had a chant about warding off dangerous Star dragons from the Great Orb, and that Karim-Pharos are poised to be future pawns, so there is a decent link there. It also could've been cool if the Celestial elves had had elves from all over, showing both intergroup workings and that the Stars were bringing them together in some manner.

If Sky and Skywing elves by thematic extension represent Freedom, then it makes sense for these to be Skywing elves who have perhaps forsaken notions of freedom for ideas of pre-determinism or destiny, i.e. our circumstances beset all of our choices, or that fate/destiny is real and unchangeable. To have the same arcanum and similar abilities as Callum, but to already be warped to Aaravos' will / thematic graces of destiny and fate - to amplify what he's scared of and to accentuate what he might become (at least in terms of what he's scared to become).

On that note, I think it makes sense for them

To be Antagonists

Partially this is because of precedent. Most elves, when in groups, have been more antagonistic with one or two rising to the forefront to be allies. We see this in arc 1 with Moonshadow and Sunfire elves, with the majority being antagonists especially at first (the assassins, the Sunfire soldiers) with Rayla, Lujanne, and eventually Janai being allies / exceptions - even if the Sunfire elves as a whole quickly switch to being allies as of 3x08/09. We see this again in S4 with the Drakewood Earthblood elves being mostly antagonists, Terry as more of a grey area, and only N'than (and possibly Mukho the Mushroom mage?) being downright allies. This would mean that Astrid and maybe another Startouch elf might be more sy

Plot / Misc Reasons

Of course, the biggest reason for the Celestial elves to exist is to, presumably, give exposition regarding Startouch elves to the main characters and to extradite subsequent views / philosophy about Star magic and the arcanum (arcana?). If they are loyal to Aaravos, they would likely provide a perspective on Startouch elves different than one Callum might be coming in with and give more credence / context to Claudia's assertions of Aaravos as well, given that she's the one character currently with a positive view of him. It also doesn't seem they can entirely be good guys given their 1) isolationist nature and 2) having not one but two super OP objects that the protagonists definitely need. While they may not end up being villains, I think we can somewhat safely assume they will initially be obstacles, if only in giving tests (of love) like another certain Startouch elf...

[queenjanai]

Behold my truth: S3 was a MESS, they didn't care for character potential, they probably thought that was their last season, so, they rushed everything. They could made us care about this elf/human and primal/dark magic conflict in a believable way but they continue to fumble it by making this black-and-white and not a grey topic. Because fact of the matter is? S3 could have built upon Lux Aurea and Khessa's leadership, Claudia's descent, and Janaya relationship while keeping Ray/**um! 🙄

listen i love s3 however i do feel like something happened there with the characters. locking viren up just to have him released? ezran could've (and should have) chosen opeli to be his regent. he was so against war, but he brought dragons to burn the humans alive?

the thing with khessa, i don't quite get yet why aaravos murdered her, it's possible he hates all of the elves now, but, why on earth would she allow viren into her court to hear him out? how can four armies enter into xadia with nobody caring? there's no way the sunfire elves didn't see them coming. they should have been right outside of lux aurea to protect the city

and rayllum, well.... i've spoken before how their "get together" arc was done in the blandest, most used up way ever. nyx was basically just a plot tool to get them together, and 2 episodes were wasted on that. i would have loved to see a glimpse of amaya instead

i think dark magic has been presented to us as a total bad thing from the start. viren is evil, and he's the only one who uses dark magic. dark magic killed sarai, dark magic nearly killed callum, so, i wouldn't say it was a grey area before

the thing that annoys me the most is tdp's habit to skip things and explain it "later", because apparently that human soldiers ransacked lux aurea and monsters are coming out of the sunforge. there was a fight, but we don't know when, before or after viren mutated the humans? and, surprise! we find about it 8 months later. it's irritating, it's skipping on something that is vital to the plot.

and how janaya act turns weird knowing what happened. janai watched her sister get murdered, the sunforge get corrupted, saw humans destroying her city (and possibly killing her citizens too), and she looks just fine when they arrive at the storm spire? amaya calls her cute, after they went through a battle together?

i really don't know if it was written in the script then cut, or if it's an after thought, but there was a battle, and it didn't seem to affect janai or amaya at all

all in all, i am hopeful for s4, especially now that rayla has a chance to be something other then the half of rayllum. they already took the lux aurea plot too far with the monsters and everything, but i hope they'll handle it in a way that's true to the characters. and i do hope to see the relationships between elves and humans growing, not only in lux aurea but spreading to the earthblood elves too

and god just give us a janaya kiss already

[raayllum]

How do you feel about the depth of the world building, and the target demographic and "realism" of the fantasy? The world and show is whimsical. It's targeted to a diverse audience, yet deal with some deep emotions. It's not aligned with human nature. Kings, queens, and generals don't charge in the front lines. Melodasies and fart flowers don't make a lot of sense, but they're entertaining concepts. I feel it's a sketch of the world that lets you focus on the core story and relationships.

I think there's a few things to keep in mind with TDP, specifically

The type of worldbuilding that typically gets included in fantasy

The type of worldbuilding that gets included in similar shows of its ilk (Steven Universe, She-Ra, The Owl House, and other contemporary kids' shows)

For fantasy, I'd say that TDP's worldbuilding is probably more 'shallow' due to the fact its a TV show, and the two season novelizations notwithstanding (which are already packed full of plot and written for a younger audience), it is much, much easier to do detailed worldbuilding in narrative fiction than visual media. Visual media can get away with communicating visual worldbuilding and splendid visuals, but in order for us to learn history or culture or anything along those lines, it almost exclusively has to come with dialogue, which is time consuming and you have to make sure the scene is still engaging; you don't even have the room to info dump a paragraph or two the way you could get away with in a book

So TV show worldbuilding, I'd say TDP is doing its best, considering its runtime and that worldbuilding is absolutely a priority. The expanded look at Xadia and Sunfire elf culture was one of my favourite things about S4

But in comparison to other kids' shows out there that are airing, or have recently aired? TDP is on a whole other level I don't think will be matched anytime soon. ATLA probably has a leg up on cultural worldbuilding (which also makes sense given the run time and nature of bending) but even then, there are plenty of things we know in TDP that we don't know in ATLA, such as history that goes hundreds and thousands of years back, local laws and judicial systems outside of one Earth Kingdom town, what more than one type of culture conducts as a funeral rite, etc.

Of the three other examples given, I think SU has the best worldbuilding, but we still don't really know what the Gem colonization of other planets was like. TOH develops some worldbuilding ideas, but never really wholly takes them to fruition, and even when I was more favourable to She-Ra while it was airing, worldbuilding was never a strong suit or seemed to be a focus of the series. Which is fine, as not every fantasy show wants to prioritize worldbuilding, but damn if I don't love it when they do, since it's one of my favourite parts of the genre as a fantasy reader and writer

And there are definitely kings, queens, and generals who have fought on the front lines in the past; it was expected for them to be involved in warfare. Melodaisies and fart flowers aren't grounded in a worldbuilding need, but neither are our silly real world equivalents of something like say, kazoos and whoopee cushions, that exist for no real reason other than that they're Fun and can be made by human hands. (And there are flowers, and even stink bugs, that do emit smells in nature.)

TDP definitely prioritizes a Top-Down approach in terms of writing from theme first and foremost and then weaving things in as they need, which they've acknowledged. The show, understandably as a story and something operating under story constraints, is more than willing to place plot and theme over logistics, but most stories are, tbh. So I think the sketch is detailed, but the focus is on how the characters interact with each other (and the theme accordingly) and the world is largely built around it - there's a reason it's not a world with a whole bunch of other continents, after all, simply because it didn't need to be. If you're interested in more thoughts in this vein / how TDP constructs itself, I'd recommend checking out this meta I wrote here <3

[imminent-danger-came]

Okay! Let’s do this.

I want to start off by saying thank you for being so chill! I know I said this in my tags a couple of days ago but I do really appreciate it :). I don’t want to argue with people online (or in general) but I am ALL for having a discussion.

I’m going to start by responding to each of your points and then see where I go from there! In advance, I want to let you know that I quote you in some places so I hope that doesn’t bother you too much—I just liked the way you phrased things better than I could rephrase them. If you don’t like/aren’t satisfied with my answers then I get it and respect it, but I hope I can convince you on at least some things! I’ve only watched season 4 once, however I think I can go decently in depth, so I’m going to give it a shot.

Buckle in, this is pretty long!

1. Rayla turning up out of the blue

I totally agree with you on some fronts, there really was a lot of build up for Rayla being gone for 2 years. Through the Moon (TTM), Rayla’s Letter “Dear Callum”, the number of promo’s and teasers relating to her disappearance—it was a lot of suspense, and in the end it culminated to her showing up...at the end of 4x02? Huh, I know I was a little surprised when I first watched it, especially after this scene:

Revenge? It’s an interesting word to use, especially in contrast to Rayla’s letter: “I’ve got one more gift for you, Callum. It’s not cake or kisses, but it’s something more important than that. I’M GOING TO KEEP YOU SAFE. I have to. I love you too much not to”. At the end of TTM she considers her leaving an act of love, not an act of revenge.

So, what changed?

We obviously don’t have the answer to that just yet, but we do get some hints that there was a significant event during Rayla’s time away that lead her to come back—that lead her to try and become less obsessive. She chose to return because at some point over the last 2 years, she learned that she needed to stop chasing after the next goal.

“ To me, one of the things about that scene actually has to do with [the fact that] Rayla has had to come back after two years of obsession and being mission-focused on finding Viren. Part of her growth is that she wants to be more normal and see if she can rebuild trust with Callum. Now, Claudia has basically handed her the next thing to be obsessed about. Some of the questions going into Season 5 for Rayla is how does she balance what she now has against the growth and progress she thinks she made in the last two years. Is this more important, or is Callum or whatever else that's going on in the world more important? She'll struggle with that.“

In fact, I think it’s super significant that Rayla decided to come back of her own accord at all. That alone shows that something is different.

((Now, the interview may not be the strongest evidence as it hasn’t been explicit in the show quite yet, but I think viewing Rayla’s actions through this lens adds a lot to the season.))

One thing that especially highlights Rayla’s differences is in 4x05:

“We can’t save everyone, Soren, There’s too much at stake. I’m leaving, and you better be right behind me.”

2. The Sunfire Elf Plot

Woah, holy shit. This is such a far cry from the Rayla who was going to sacrifice herself to save a downed dragon. Back in season 2 that was “where she was meant to be”, that was who she was. Here we see how her core character trait has been fundamentally changed, and that’s a serious thing! This scene alone so clearly illustrates that there’s SOMETHING we haven’t seen.

Rayla is a character that unless prodded (usually by Callum pre s4), won’t open up or admit to anything she feels underneath the surface. In season 4 Callum is cold and distant towards her, meaning our main mode of learning about Rayla’s inner world simply isn’t there. Now that we’ve had some form of a reconciliation between Callum and Rayla, I’m very excited to see her arc in season 5.

I think that’s what Karim believes. He believes that his people will be on his side, and that everyone views Janai’s acts as queen to be AGAINST their history. That’s what he tells us, the audience, anyways. But what we’re shown is quite different. The 6 Horns arrest Karim, and it seems that a large number of elves are willing to work with humans and vice versa.

“people will be upset about this/people are angry...”

That is something Karim talks a lot about, isn’t it?

Really, the moment Karim’s secret accomplice Miyana repeatedly voiced her doubts on the Horns taking his side, I knew Karim was misguided. Just look at her face as Karim preforms the blood ash ritual:

Or when Karim asks if Miyana has gathered the 6 horns:

This is not the face of someone who wants to dethrone the Queen, or is completely on board with everything Karim is up to. She has significant doubt.

Karim is a man of principal, tradition, and history. He was stating what he chose to see and what he believed rather than the reality. When Janai and Amaya go off to have their personal conversation, most people in the camp have neutral expressions: 

It’s only Karim who actually looks upset: 

Yet, he’s convinced that the people seeing Janai go off and have “lunch” with her fiance will upset them, enrage them. But, they’re clearly not.

This is in line with what Ezran says to Kasef in season 3: “the world wants peace.” Yes, there is conflict, yes there is tension, and of course there is hatred between Humans and Elves—however, they are trying. They’re attempting to navigate a peaceful future, and it’s not just our main protagonists doing that.

To hound that point home, in the end the 6 Horns won’t stand with Karim, not even Miyana.

Now this isn’t to say that they’re in full support of Janai either. If you notice, Miyana and 2 other Horns both make no move to arrest Karim:

So, in short: no one actively stands against Janai because no one actually wanted too, Karim just assumed they would. Or at the very least, no one has made a move yet—I think next season these three horns could potentially work with Karim to finally take action against Janai. Again this season was set up—meaning it wasn’t a full arc. But I’ll touch on that more later!

Next, you mentioned that like the Karim plot, it was the “same deal with katolis and the whole ppl don’t like the dragon queen thing”. Honestly, they did enough showing for me to be satisfied!

In particular, I think about this shot with 2 parents holding back (or in their perspective shielding) their child from Zubeia.

This family is terrified!

It’s also a perfect example of the “breaking the cycle” and “generational conflict” narratives the show has established since season 1. The parents, with no intervention, would have passed their fear and hatred down to their child. The cycle would have continued—instead however, Zubeia was invited to Katolis by Ezran to show the people who she is beyond “The Enemy Queen of the Dragons.

After Zubeia’s arrival, initial tensions are relieved with Soren and his stand-up routine (loved Zubeia being Soren’s hype man this season), and clearly the Dragon Queen is making an effort for peace and reconciliation on her end as well. No matter what mishaps happen, she’s always willing to respond with kindness and chivalry. Even after getting splattered in the face with persimmon jelly she simply tastes it, complements the flavor, and declares it the most “delicious jelly in all of Xadia”. And, well, Barius feels honored by this. We see other people congratulate him:

It’s meaningful that the Dragon Queen would complement a Human Baker, and I think this scene really shows that.

Next, we have the most obvious case of humans being angry at Xadia-

-the destruction of Zubeia’s portrait. I doubt a crowd of civilians, even Humans who hate Dragons and Elves more than anything, would attack or yell at Zubeia directly (no one stands up when Soren accuses the crowd). However, tearing a hole into a symbol of “hope and friendship” between Humans and Xadia? Now that’s something I could see someone actually doing, and something they actually did.

There’s only 1 episode in season 3 that involves the Dragon Queen and Katolian relations—and I think they did a stellar job!

3. Janaya

Same, lol.

4. The Difficulty With Pacing

So, I’m a believer in season 4 being a super in-depth and ridiculous (affectionate) parallel to season 1. Viren and Callum (both high mages) are introduced with the mirror, Callum and Rayla meet in episode 2 of each season (with Callum turning around to see Rayla I might add), there’s 3 episodes of set up before the seasons really take off, in each season there are even “guide” characters (Ellis and N’than) that lead to the discovery of a Nexus (Moon and Earth)...there are A LOT of interesting similarities. Season 4 is the season 1 of arc 2, and the writers want us to know it!

As you mentioned season 4 is a set up season, and it’s also a season that had the seriously difficult task of reintroducing the story for arc 2.

You said that nothing really advanced the story/plot in a meaningful way until the end of the season—however, I’d argue that that’s just kinda how TDP has always been. That’s what I like about it—arc 1 was all about returning the dragon egg to Xadia, which left a lot of room to explore character arcs. Really, what did they actually achieve in season 1? They found the egg, got a little  closer to the border, and then they hatched the egg. The real meat of the season came from learning about these new characters and seeing their  dynamics and it’s the core of the show. It’s what I like about the show.

Season 4 is very similar in that way. It establishes our characters post time-skip and fleshes out their new dynamics, all while doing further world building and answering some important questions like “How/why was Aaravos imprisoned” or “Who are the other arch dragons”. Yes, season 4 essentially boils down to “The team learns about Aaravos, they attempt to prevent one crucial step to his return, and they fail”. But, I don’t really think it needed to be anything more—that’s the exact same amount of plot “progression” season 1 had.

Another thing you mentioned is that this season didn’t have enough space “to balance 3 fully fleshed out arcs”. Well, that would be because they’re not full arcs—at least not yet. That’s what I mean when I say it’s a set up season.

In the same way that season 4 is a parallel to season 1, season 5 is going to be a parallel to season 2 (which I know has me excited!). Season 1, when I first watched it, felt very incomplete—and then I watched season 2. Narratively, they’re two halves of one “season”, or arc. Episodes 9 of season 1 and season 4 feel like mid-season finales, and that’s what they are, story-telling wise anyways. Honestly, I’d wait until the next season to see how everything plays out. This is just the nature of 9 episode seasons—and I don’t mind it. It makes everything feel really connected, and that’s something TDP will always excel at. If anyone hates that narrative structure that’s totally fine, but it’s not objectively bad.

One complaint I often see is that the new arc is called “The Mystery of Aaravos”, yet Aaravos only got 1 scene this season. I’m going to be blunt (this “””criticism””” drives me crazy, which you didn’t do I’m just complaining), I need people to understand what the word “mystery” actually means: “anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown” or “something not understood or beyond understanding“.

...Isn’t that what season 4 did with Aaravos?

The whole season was centered around Aaravos and how to stop him, which inherently means it lives up to the title. He’s a “mystery”, an enigma. He had his 2 minutes, and they were perfect for what they set out to do—be a threat, and show that Aaravos pulls the strings behind the scenes. His presence is felt through the entire season despite not being on screen, reflecting his role in history as well.

Last thing I wanted to touch on for this section is the claim that “tdp did [it’s setup] poorly because so much screen time was used for stuff that didn't matter rather than actual set up for the future”. I will say, this point confuses me a little bit. Neither you or I actually know the pay-off of this setup to know that season 4 did it poorly. It’s a little harsh and inaccurate to claim that what the writers chose to focus on “didn’t matter” because we simply don’t know how much it matters yet—that’s the nature of setup.

I have a few guesses—I think the Drake Riders are going to be important next season because they were introduced this season, I think the those 3 Horns will act against Janai, I think Callum may learn how to connect to another primal source—but it’s all conjecture.

To me, every scene in season 4 had some sort of meaning that could be gleaned from it—whether it was lore or character insight, it was important. Yes, I am even talking about the fart jokes in 4x02—I sound crazy I know. But, they (unfortunately (affectionate)) do a very good job of establishing Claudia and Terry’s relationship. It shows how they’re goofy and open with each other, and it provides some fucking CRAZY juxtaposition to the way the two kill Ibis next episode. It humanizes them both, furthering the nuance that I so love from TDP.

And, lets be honest, fart jokes with your loved one’s in real life are hilarious and silly and enjoyable. I’m all for showing kids that you can be gross with your significant other(s).

5. Same Cliff Hanger as Season 1

Like I mentioned before, season 4 is a parallel to season 1. The ending to season 4 is not meant to be as much of an “oh shit” moment as much as it’s meant to draw your attention to season 1 and it’s similarities (which is an “oh shit” moment for me asdfasd).

In fact, it also shows how Viren has sort of regained the confidence he had at the end of season 1—he finally reclaimed his staff and performed dark magic for the first time since his resurrection, effectively closing out the season. He’s back baby!

But he’ll never be the same.

So sure, maybe they’ve done it before, but that’s also what writing a parallel and then putting it into a show is! You repeat things and create patterns in your stories. I’m not really sure how you build themes or narrative motifs without that.

Though, in my opinion season 4′s ending is different in that the suspense comes from Viren finally being committed to freeing Aaravos. Up until now, Viren’s been following Claudia around like a lost puppy, and now he’s leading—things are going to get a lot worse for our protagonists next season, and I can’t wait to watch it!

Conclusion

I don’t really have a prophetic way to close this meta out, but if you made it this far thank you for reading! I’m very passionate about this show and I love the writing and it’s characters.

The nature of analysis is subjective, which means that all of this is just my opinion. If you disagree with me, that’s fine, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Thank you for indulging me :]

I am seeing some of the WORST takes about tdp season 4. Sweet, sweet tumblr users. This season was a lot of set up, not everything was supposed to be explained or resolved, or even "should" have been. Season 4 had to do the heavy leg work of re-establishing characters and arcs and the plot moving foreword. It just needs a little time to be able to act on everything it's now established. It did a good job building off of arc 1, and now we are fully indoctrinated into arc 2!