#There's no evidence that Azula knows Ursa loved her

[missaccuracy]

What I find interesting is how fandom cherry picks what Ursa's hallucination says.

In almost every Ursa discourse I see someone claim that the hallucination proves that Ursa loved Azula.

" See? Even Azula knows for sure her mother loved her, because her hallucination outright says so! "

And the same people who think that, more often than not, hold the opinion that:

" Ursa absolutely wouldn't be proud of Azula, because Azula became a bad person and that's why Azula herself doesn't believe this in the mirror scene. "

- What are you doing here?

- I didn't want to miss my own daughter's coronation.

- Don't pretend to act proud! I know what you really think of me! You think I'm a monster.

Yes, Azula doesn't buy Ursa being proud of her coronation, but this is clearly not what the hallucination implies here. The hallucination of Ursa literally says that she didn't want to miss her "own daughter's coronation", impling pride in Azula for her achievement.

Should we also take this hallucination line as a proof that deep down Azula knew Ursa would be proud of her coronation, but denies it? And this is where I think the fandom will disagree.

So why one thing is the truth and the other is not? According to the fandom, we must believe, that Ursa acting proud of Azula's coronation is a lie, but her telling Azula that she loves her is suddenly the truth that Azula denies. I think there's a clear inconsistency here, which is overlooked.

Overall, this is Azula's own belief about the real Ursa:

That Ursa liked Zuko more than her and that she thought of her as a monster and that's why she wouldn't be proud of her.

Meanwhile, the hallucination:

Azula is the center of Ursa's attention. Ursa acts proud of Azula's coronation, reassuring Azula that she's she's just confused and that she loves her.

So I don't know, maybe this is the Ursa that Azula had just imagined to herself, rather than what what she knows, in order to cope with the reality of what she actually believed about what her mother thought of her. It can be just logically concluded that it's very unlikely that these are the things that Azula herself knows.

[allgremlinart]

"Ursa never let Azula know that she loved her" well you see she did. though. I think hallucination-Ursa saying "No, I love you Azula" is pretty solid evidence that on some level, at least subconsciously, Azula knows that her mother loves her. has memories of her mother telling her that she loves her. it just wasn't enough. it couldn't ever be enough !!

[akiizayoi4869]

(tw emotional neglect, abuse)

(I say this as a person that actually thinks positively of Ursa)

"Ursa wasn't a bad mom, she was simply trying to stop Azula from doing bad stuff" You know that statement isn't incompatible with 'Ursa is an emotionally neglectful parent' right? Especially when there's very little evidence of Ursa doing anything other than stopping Azula from doing bad things?

Another argument that bothers me is 'Azula knew deep down her mother loves her, that's why she hallucinated her.' Sorry, but that's not how feeling unloved by your parents worked. I would know. There is actually evidence of Ursa loving Azula, but the hallucination is not it.

A third arguement: "You're just projecting your mom issues on her" Ursa's a lot nicer and a better parent than my mom. And Ursa's more like my dad.

"It actually was all Ozai" It's possible, but we don't really know. They never did actually show us enough of Ursa and Azula's relationship to tell (and no, we can't just assume based on what happened in the comics/show, especially since they only showed a few days). Did Ozai tell Azula that her mom thought she was a monster? Or did Ozai just say things that Azula interpreted as such? Did Ursa actually even say Azula was a monster? Was Ursa a really bad parent off screen? Did Azula get this impression from Ursa actually disciplining her (as the common belief goes)? Did Ursa do things that gave Azula the impression that she thought she was a monster (there is actually enough evidence for this, considering Spirit Temple and the common belief that Ursa saw Ozai in Azula. And. You know. Ursa does think Ozai is a monster.). We don't know either way.

"Azula was just spoiled" Also not incompatible with emotional neglect.

"Ursa was as bad as Ozai" 100% WRONG.

"Ursa abandoned her kids" Yes and no. She was forced to leave (not the same thing). The forgetting of her kids could be interpreted that way, though. Personally, I see the 'forgetting her kids' more as a moment of weakness-not necessarily an indication of her feelings on Azula and Zuko (whom she interacts with positively after she regains her memories). Like she was so overwhelmed by the pain, and she didn't know if she'd see Azula or Zuko again. So she took the chance to forget. If it had been a better moment, or she was in a better mental state/had more hope that she'd see Zuko or Azula again, or was given a chance to not forget Azula and Zuko while forgetting everything else, she probably wouldn't have chosen to forget.

Omg, the hallucination argument and the "it was all Ozai!" arguments annoy me the most. Why are we taking what a hallucination says at face value? This is all coming from Azula's mind, that's why it's called a "hallucination" what the hallucination of Ursa was saying were all things that Azula wanted her mother to say to her, but knew that she wouldn't. Why? Because Ursa never showed that she loved Azula. If she did, Azula wouldn't have hallucinated her mother, the one person who she wanted comfort from in that moment, and she wouldn't have cried when hallucination Ursa said "I love you, Azula. I do." and smashed the mirror with her hair brush. She did that because she knew that Ursa wasn't really there, and because she knew that her mother would never say those comforting words to her. Based on what we saw in the Zuko Alone episode, Ursa was always strict with Azula in ways that she wasn't with Zuko, even when he did something that was bad. Like it or not, that leaves an impression on your kid. That makes them think that you don't love them, only your sibling.

Yeah, we really don't know much about their relationship, and I wouldn't even take the comics interpretation (at least, the Yang comics) because they completely contradict what little bit we saw in the show. Saying it was all Ozai and that Ursa had nothing to do with Azula's problems is just deliberately denying canon. The Beach episode gave us this:

and nobody says anything to push back against that statement and say that Azula was wrong, and that of course her mother didn't see her as a monster or thought that about her. You know what that means? They knew that she was right, because they were all around each other during their childhood. So they all witnessed how Ursa treated both of her kids. Zuko most likely didn't care because his mom was on his side when his father wasn't, but Mai and Ty Lee were Azula's friends. You can't tell me that they didn't pick up on it after a while, even if Azula didn't openly talk about it. And then we have the mirror scene. Once again, the narrative doesn't do anything to show that Azula was wrong. The hallucination is there for one reason: to show us that yes, what Azula said during The Beach episode actually isn't a wrong assessment of the relationship between her and her mother at all, and that she really did not feel as if Ursa loved her, because Ursa never showed that she did. Now, I'm not saying that Ursa did not love Azula at all, because I'm sure that she did. She just never acted or spoke to Azula in a way that conveyed that she did indeed love her.

Personally, I don't think that Azula got this impression from Ursa disciplining her. That's expected of a parent. However, it's the way how Ursa went about doing it that counts. With Zuko, we see Ursa lightly admonish him for doing something wrong, and gently explaining to him why whatever it was that he did was wrong. I'm pretty sure that there was more moments like that, and Azula more than likely witnessed them. Compare that with how Ursa spoke to Azula whenever she did something wrong, and you get a completely different picture. Ursa just yells at Azula and doesn't explain why whatever it was that she did or said was wrong, as if she just expected Azula to know better. Which is just baffling to me since Azula is the youngest child. In my experience, the youngest child tends to need a bit more guidance than the oldest child does. Anyway, Azula quite obviously picked up on this difference and it resulted in her beginning to think that something was wrong with her since Ursa never treated Zuko like that.

Another thing is attention. Not receiving attention from your parents will also mess you up. It's even worse when it's the mother since, you know, you have that special connection with her since she carried you for nine months. Getting attention from your parents is important. And while I know that people say that Ozai gave attention to Azula, that's different. And I honestly wouldn't even call that good attention, because all he cared about was results and how useful his children were to him. Also, Ozai wasn't the loving parent in the family. Ursa was. Azula knew this because, as we can clearly see, she was a smart child for her age, and she wasn't naive like her brother. So to her, not being loved by Ursa, the loving parent in the family, must mean that she's the problem. Which is why she sees herself as a monster, and why she thinks Ursa saw her as a monster.

Miss me with the whole "Ursa was just as bad as Ozai or worse than him" bs. Like you said that is absolutely not true at all.

I mean yes, that was the whole point of Ursa choosing to forget her children. I just have two problems with it: originally she was just going to change her face so that she wouldn't be recognized, and find a way to go back to her children. The only reason why she changed her mind was because Ikem convinced her to. Secondly, once again it goes against what we saw in the show, because what does she tell Zuko right before she leaves? "Never forget who you are." And then she proceeds to do exactly that. It was just a stupid and lazy plot point to explain what happened to Ursa, because the writers didn't think that much about it.

[zuko-always-lies]

Incomplete list of metas (2022)

Mai is not afraid to show people affection in front of Azula

Zuko and Not Learning the Lesson

Zhao’s War Map of the World

“Katara’s Blind Hatred for Fire Nation People”

Does Zuko blame Azula for Ursa's "death"?

ATLA Characters By the Number of Times They Stole/Scammed Things from Civilians/Noncombatants

Who is Zuko Shipped With, Anyways?

Most Popular Zuko Ships on 01/01/2020 on AO3

ATLA trauma and suffering and its effects

Toph's Opinions on Nonbenders

Unpopular Opinion: People Frequently Completely Miss What’s Terrifying About Azula as An Antagonist

The Class Divide in ATLA

Suyin being awful to Lin

Zuko believes that suffering made him a better person, but it's not true

Azula Never Had Control of Mai

Zuko vs. Azula on the threat posed by the Water siblings

How Katara's grief over her mother was handled poorly

Mai would hate Ozai way more than she would hate Azula

Zuko throwing Fire at someone out of frustration in his introductory scene!

Does Azula not Get Enough Credit for Her Intuition?

Zuko’s Arc is Very Forced (in that the narrative pushed him strongly in certain directions at critical moments)

The Dangerous Ladies are Hated in Proportion to the Degree They Violate Gender Norms

Zuko’s Agency in His Fights with Azula

Ty Lee and Zuko are Not Friends

Zuko Doesn’t Get Why Katara Doesn’t Like Him

“Now my Dad Talks to Me”[Zuko Meta]

Does Zuko forgive anyone in ATLA for the wrongs, real or perceived, they inflicted upon him?

Zuko, Zuko’s perception of honor, and Agni Kai’s

Zuko and Classism

One thing that I almost never see addressed is how odd Zuko wanting to join the Gaang was as a decision

Azula doesn't fake vulnerability

Foreshadowing for Zuko siding against Aang at Ba Sing Se

Zuko would find being Firelord boring and frustrating

more on that

Toph was forced into joining Team Avatar more than she chose to do so[Toph meta]

Zuko's reaction to Aang and Iroh allying

The semi-canon Earth Kingdom Chronicles have interesting takes on Zuko and Katara in the Catacombs at Ba Sing Se

“Good” impulse in Zuko comes from empathy and (sometimes) personal loyalty, not really from duty or morality. 

How Well does Iroh Live Up to His Own Wisdom?

how many times do we see Katara comfort Sokka during the series?

Little Azula trying to impress Little Ty Lee

Ty Lee terrifies Katara

Do Zuko and Azula believe in auras?

Azula Maturing and Overcoming Her Jealously?

Mai defending Ty Lee from...Zuko?

Azula’s Objectives for the DoBS, in Order of Importance

When Can We See Azula Being Polite?

People realize that it’s Sokka who brings up the idea of Katara being the Team Mom, empathizes that she’s been mothering him for years, and says this is a good thing, not Aang, right?

How was 13 year old Zuko really like?

Iroh’s finest moment–at The Crossroads of Destiny

There’s Zero Evidence that Ozai Abused Show!Canon Ursa.

How Would Zuko’s Actions when He’s 13 Years Old Look within Fire Nation Elite Culture?

Azula doesn’t think love is weak and stupid, she thinks that no one will ever genuinely love her.

Ty Lee is Mean!

You know, I think Mai just doesn’t like beaches

Mai tried to kill Katara (and not because Azula made her)

Empathy drives Zuko's goodness

Almost every time someone abandoned or betrayed Azula, she was powerless to prevent it, regardless of her actions

Book 1 & 2 Zuko didn't care about the war

Traumatic experience that Zuko received (that no one remembers)

The Zuko-Katara Scene Under Ba Sing Se Didn’t Have Any Great Emotional Significance for Zuko

Mai, Azula, their relationship, and Mai's parents

I find the idea that Mai doesn’t understand “the real Zuko,” while Katara does, quite confusing and questionable. Like...

Zuko's status anxiety

Zuko’s ill-timed comment in the war room was not a matter of him opposing the war

Zuko Parallels

Azula's luck at love in fanfiction [not really mine but I had to include it]

Zuko's lack of reckoning with his personal imperialist violence

Zuko’s Book 3 Unhappiness

Zuko does little to no emotional labor for the females in his life,

 Sokka very much doesn’t like people from the Fire Nation

Aang's maturity and wisdom

Settler Colonialism, Sokka, Katara, and Jet

Azula fic character tags

Ty Lee and pride?

Zuko bringing up his Agni Kai with Ozai

I was just trying to describe Sokka to someone…

Zuko was crown prince in first half of book 3

Azula's charisma

Azula wanted to talk things out with Mai before taking action at Boiling Rock

"Zuko is the perfect brother postwar” fics impress me with how little respect they show for Zuko’s trauma.

some of the better evidence of Zuko’s dissatisfaction with the more militaristic aspects of Fire Nation culture.

Ursa’s departure, and another reason why Azula hates herself

People love acting like “realizing that Ozai also abused Azula” was part of Zuko’s arc...

Azula playing with Ty Lee

The big problem with “Zuko switched sides because of Ozai’s plan to burn down the Earth Kingdom”

Ty Lee the outsider of the Dangerous Ladies?

Every Refence to Azula’s Relationship with the Court and General Public in the Fire Nation

Zuko only comforted people four times?

Zuko’s Avatar Hunting Strategies

Bonus:

How does Iroh talk about Ozai vs How does Iroh talk about Azula

[phoenix-king-ozai]

ATLA Comic: The Search AU Fanfiction!

Fire Lord Azulon finds out about Ursa’s letters claiming Fire Prince Zuko’s illegitimate heritage as Ikem’s son!

Crown Fire Prince Iroh the famed Dragon of the West is trying to defend Zuko’s heritage as Ozai’s son and his nephew along with him truly being Fire Lord Azulon's grandson. Iroh then tries to get Ozai to back him up on Zuko’s defense as his child.

“Ozai anyone with eyes can tell that young Zuko is your child!” “He is basically your complete copy of you when you were younger!” “Please, brother and father…don't let rumors and falsehoods kill this innocent young boy’s life!”

Ozai glares at Ursa in chains and says “Well, apparently according to the boy’s mother…I’m not Zuko’s biological father!” “You know the saying, mother’s baby and father’s maybe…” “At least I have the complete confidence that Azula is my daughter… her impeccable skills and genius talent alone are proof of that!

Ursa is livid yet feels immensely guilty for her incredibly risky and stupid false letters. She made her coffin and now unfortunately she and her darling baby boy Zuko will have to lay in the burning inferno she made...

“OZAI, PLEASE! YOU KNOW THAT ZUKO IS OUR CHILD AND IN PARTICULAR YOUR SON!”

“HE HAS COMPLETELY INHERITED YOUR LOOKS AND LOVES YOU AS HIS FATHER!”

“HE’S OUR SON, OUR BABY BOY! PLEASE! I BEG YOU!”

Ozai scoffs and gives a cold aloof humorless laugh. The complete pathetic desperation is palpably evident by Ursa’s yelling screams, frantic panics, and streaming tears!

“If so, Ursa, then why did you write such disgusting, vicious, and heinous sacrilegious lies about our child being your son with Ikem!”

“Only a completely idiotic fool would write such knowing falsehoods despite the severe consequences of these lies!” You must logically be writing the truth in these love letters!”

Azula glares alongside her father at her mother and brother in chains. Zuko, the poor boy is absolutely terrified and confused about why people are saying that Ozai isn’t his dad. This can't be true… he REFUSES to believe that it is true. Ozai is his father, his daddy, and no one else. This is complete lies and slander! IT HAS TO BE!

Ursa gives a heated glare with tears streaming down her eyes. How dare Ozai use this desperate and dangerous moment where his wife and son lives are at risk against her! Did he have no love for his wife and first born son?

“BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT TO DREAM ABOUT HIM TURNING AND BECOMING A MONSTER LIKE YOU!!!!”

“YOU ARE A SICK MAN OZAI JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER AND I PITY THE BOTH OF YOU!

“VAATU AND HIS CLONED SPAWN SON!”

Ozai is extremely pissed and livid is a mild term to express his burning and boiling rage at his unloyal and unfaithful wife. The foolish wrench had put her and their son’s lives at complete risk of immolation by his and Fire Lord Azulon’s molting wrath!

Fire Lord Azulon leaned up on his Burning Throne seat and gave a burning, seething, volcanic glare at his daughter-in-law who had just insulted him, the Fire Lord, his son, and the entire Fire Nation Royal Family.

“YOU DARE INSULT MY SON IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER!”

“YOU THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF ROKU DARE INSULT THE GRANDSON OF SOZIN!”

“YOU WHO LIVED IN A BACKWATER VILLAGE KNOWN AS HIRA’A!”

“YOU WILL HOLD YOUR INSOLATE TONGUE BEFORE I MELT IT OFF!”

“…You are extremely lucky if I don't decide to immolate you publicly nude with four heated spikes through your hands and feet dangling you in the air under the light of Agni, the Sun Spirit…”

Fire Lord Azulon finished off in a low growl full of hatred and simmering fury at his soon-to-be former ex-daughter-in-law! Iroh and Ozai was completely shocked at Fire Lord Azulon coming directly at Ozai defense as a loyal father should have. Ursa, however, couldn’t help but cower in fear an natural reaction as the Fire Lord’s flames in his throne room turned from a bright crimson red to an brilliant azure cobalt blue!

Zuko and Azula are completely shocked by what their mother Ursa said to their father Ozai in front of the now-whispering Royal Court! Sure, both of their parents sometimes got into arguments. However, this full-blown yelling and loathing was completely foreign to both of them!

Iroh on the other hand knew that it would be extremely hard for Ursa to adapt to her new lifestyle and his brother's ruthless imperialistic personality. Yet, this fire and fury is not something that he expected from his young sister-in-law! He fears only immolation and ash for his sister-by-law now by the Fire Lord’s own personal burning desire for vengeance…

[atla-confessions]

The people saying Azula couldn't have known if her mom disliked or feared her or viewed her as a monster because she was 8 are... very odd.

People aren’t saying that. People are saying Azula might not be an unreliable narrator not because she was young but because of her father’s manipulations. Also if you are used to being treated as better than someone being treated equal to them feels like lesser treatment ergo “you can’t treat me like zuko”.

Again some part of Azula deeply believes her mother loves her and has her best interest at heart because when she hallucinates her she is only giving compliments and good advice. She even ends with “I love you Azula I do” which pushes Azula over the edge. Indicating there is a dissonance between what Azula believes to be true and what she wants to believe is true.

Ultimately we do not get enough of their relationship to judge an objective truth unlike with Ozai Zuko and Azula.

And also Ursa disappeared when Azula was 8 who t he fuck knows how Ozai might have twisted that. There just isn’t enough evidence to support that Ursa was abusive or neglectful of Azula. That doesn’t change how Azula feels tho. Sometimes how we feel and the facts of the matter aren’t always aligned that doesn’t mean one discounts the other.

X

[sokkastyles]

Ursa can’t control how Ozai treats Zuko and Azula, but she can control how she treats them. If she instills toxic, imperialist values in them, that’s on her. If she neglects Azula and never shows her love in a way she can understand, that’s on Ursa. If her behavior convinces Azula that she hates Azula and thinks she is a monster, that’s on Ursa.

Just because Ozai is an awful parent doesn’t mean Ursa gets off the hook for the damage her parenting caused her children.

But Ursa didn't do any of those things. Ozai did.

Literally the only evidence you have to link to is one scene of the family passively laughing about an imperialist joke. That scene is meant to show how people can become desensitized, how easy it is for dehumanization of others to become normalized, which is why it's Iroh making the joke, who we know became a better person once he actually analyzed and confronted what he believed - and you decide that all of Azula and Ozai's abusiveness and cruelty should be laid at Ursa's feet? Way to completely miss the point, as usual.

[ask-ozai]

Wait! What do you know about Mai and Ty Lemon's teenage drama? Tell me all your gossip, evil dilf xx

About Michi's daughter and Ty Lemon, Azula's traitor friends, I only know what she told me while the servants did our nails and washed our hair. Some unimportant anecdotes from their days at the Academy and war reports. There's not much to say about them, they're pretty normal. Azula always had an innate facility for analyzing people, and knowing how and where each person would be most useful. Also to classify paperwork according to its urgency. She started when she was two years old, and couldn't even use the royal seal yet so the only way for her to sign her official documents was to dip her little hand in ink and press it onto the paper. Brilliant from her earliest age, as princes are supposed to be. (Zuko couldn't spell 'Conquest' until he was thirteen).

Azula said many things. It was evident that she had a certain affection for them, even though I had always taught her that it was not advisable to trust anyone (And I was right, given that both of them and my own son betrayed us). But anyway, that is of public knowledge. You asked me for little-known anecdotes about Michi's daughter and Ty Lemon. Here are some of the things Azula mentioned:

Ty Lemon also had some interest in Zuko when they were children, but she never did anything because everyone knew that Zuko had a preference for Michi's daughter.

Once Azula and Michi's daughter mistook Ty Lemon for one of her sisters, and she didn't speak to them for a week. I really wish I didn't know this.

Azula once put laxatives in their food just to time how long it would take them to go to the bathroom, in case they were attacked by surprise.

Michi's daughter and Ty Lemon had a big fight over a fictional drama that was popular ten years ago called Moonlight, about a love triangle between a boring, normal girl, a bloodsucking spirit named Ed Wan, and a wolf spirit named Yei Co. Michi's daughter was Team Ed Wan and Ty Lemon was Team Yei Co. Again, I really wish I didn't know this, but I'm absolutely sure it was Ursa who wrote the story.

Azula was convinced that Ty Lemon stole our silver cutlery when she came to play, so we had to eat with plastic cutlery when she was around.

Michi's daughter went through a phase where she dressed exclusively in black and wore an eyebrow piercing when they were at the Academy. I don't know why Azula thought it was information I should know.

And I suppose many other things must have happened, since Azula talked about them very often. But my patience had a limit. I didn't need confirmation from her to come to the conclusion that Ty Lemon has some issues and Michi's daughter was a victim of Zuko's manipulation.

[ihopeitruinsrocknroll]

azula’s character is just so fascinating to me— her and katara are essentially two sides of the same coin. both of them are the younger prodigy sister, with two brothers that are considerably less prodigious. they have elements that directly oppose each other, especially since they both learned a dangerous subset of bending from a manipulative authority/familial figure in their life who wanted to benefit from it.

the differences between their characters (other than the obvious) are their upbringings and their personalities that were shaped from them. azula had a very very abusive and dangerous childhood, meaning mainly emotional and mental manipulation (and depending on how u view it, physical too).

she grew up being “perfect”, to the point where she would have rather stabbed someone than be seen as weak to her father. this, and how other people reacted to this (her father encouraged it and her mother was scared of it) shaped her character into the blade it was in the show. her father encouraging her cruelty, the one type of kindness she recieved was definitely not helped when her mother called her a “monster” and chose zuko over her everytime. (seriously, while i understand that she saw ozai in her, she really didn’t have to make it that obvious that she was scared/hated her. it’s not her fault that azula didn’t wake up in the night and thought that her mother only visited zuko before leaving though, that’s just the miscommunication trope) we see her have a mental breakdown, seeing her mother in the mirror when there was no one, sending away loyal staff after being so paranoid it hurt her. ultimately, this leads to her downfall, where she meets her counterpart and her brother.

on the other hand, katara was raised as an equal to sokka, knowing that she was special but never better she didn’t suppress her powers or boast about them, but just saw them as a part of herself and not a weapon. her waterbending at the very start was introduced by sokka saying “weird water stuff” or something similar, and her arguing that it was “waterbending”, something that she was proud of as a part of her culture.

her tribe appreciates her, she’s needed a lot in ways that azula wasn’t. she acts as a mother to a lot of people, and is essentially the “last hope” for the water tribe where azula is the “new hope” for the fire nation’s expansionist beliefs. they both represented completely different things to their people, and this is especially evident in their parents

ozai and ursa either praise or scorn azula for being cruel, liking either her or zuko more, which made azula choose a side early on, whereas hakoda and kya seemed to have loved both sokka and katara equally.

katara grows at such a rate that she rivals the avatar—she beats a master with barely any training, she manages to win against soldiers with far more experience on their belt. this level of growth isn’t just because she was gifted or had a motivation to learn, it was also because she was pushed to be aang’s waterbending master. (pirate scroll episode especially showed her desperation to be better than aang, to not be outstripped by her own student)

even though she was talented and very motivated to win against the fire nation, she shouldn’t have won against a girl who was trained from birth to be the best of the best, a ruthless weapon who took down a city by herself. so basically, the question of the day is why did katara win?

one, her friends. this isn’t to say some friendship is magic bs, because she had friends who taught her. she had an open mind and learned from different cultures, she wasn’t rigid and didn’t stick to just one nation’s discipline. without any formal training other than those weeks with pakku, she had to adapt and make her own style, which allowed for more fast thinking and adaptability.

two, she had a reason to win. while you can certainly argue that azula had a reason to win too, meaning becoming fire lord, azula also thought that her father would definitely win, meaning that it wouldn’t have technically been the end of the world for her to fight against two people that she thought she could win against. (this is kinda handwavey, since azula wasn’t really in her right mind to think that up but humor me) either way, katara had a LOT on her plate that day. her job was to get azula to give zuko the throne, or else the invasion would fail. and when zuko went down? well, any illusion that azula didn’t want to kill her own brother went up in a poof. she basically thought: hmm, well, zuko’s my friend, and azula just nearly killed him. so no holding back or honor agni kai things THAT I SAID NO TO IN THE FIRST PLACE, i need to get back and heal him, so i need to get azula down fast. and she did, whereas azula didn’t have as much of the drive that katara had that day.

three, katara had a stable emotional base. her friends didn’t abandon her or anything, she had a loving family (albeit with an absent dad and dead mom) and while she was under constant stress from the war, she still had friends and people she could talk to. her qi wasn’t as unstable as azula’s, who was basically having a qi deviation (probably didn’t help that ty lee blocked them too) her clear mind helped her think of a way to subdue her, but azula didn’t really think at all. i think honestly azula’s schizophrenia was either realllyyy prominent in the last agni kai, or she had a deviation in her energy (if those exist in the show).

basically, katara is a nicer azula who didn’t grow up traumatised asf and that’s very interesting to me :)

[pocketramblr]

AU where Ozai didn’t change his will and Iroh was crowned Lord of Fire.

1- Azulon is adamant about Iroh remaining heir, even if he doesn't love the idea. Iroh tries to play it off, he's grieving his VERY recently dead son. Ozai gets annoying about it, so Azulon ships Ozai off to Ba Sing Se and tells him to capture the city himself if he thinks he's so much a better option than his brother.

2- Azulon dies. Iroh is made Fire Lord before Ozai even makes it to the walls of the city. Then Ursa goes to him, and gives him evidence of Ozai plotting to get Lu Ten killed, then his father. Of course, she have to be at least banished for her part in hiding it, but then Ozai could be tried and executed. All she asks is that Iroh not punish her children for it.

3- Iroh is like "no I really don't have to banish you" but well. His grief is still raw and new. So he waits for Ozai to die in his attempt at a siege, then use that to pull back, the first step in his plan to change the war.

4- Azula goes to Iroh one day as well, and tells him that Azulon threatened to allow Iroh the chance to kill Zuko when he returned, to punish Ozai for disrespecting his pain. Azulon didn't ever tell Iroh that, knowing it wouldn't help him, but he didn't have any problem lying to Ozai to try and shut him up. Azula tells him in hopes Zuko will be punished some part of the measure for Lu Ten, and she'll become Iroh's heir instead. Iroh simply thanks her for telling him, but says the royal family has lost too many members recently, and Iroh can't bear to lose the children: neither will bear either of their parent's weights.

5- still, it takes quite some time for Iroh to turn from the war he tried to win. In the end what convinces him is realizing he doesn't want Zuko to inherit the war... And he doesn't really want him to inherit an empire either. It's all a bit confusing for Zuko, who isn't sure how to feel. Then one day the receive word of the Avatar's return, and Iroh wonders if perhaps the Avatar's role is to protect existing peace and unity, but not bring it about. Did Sozin's war rob the world of the right to an Avatar, in the eyes of the spirits? Zuko doesn't think that's quite right either, but he's hopeful that the Avatar will be able to give him advice on how to feel about it, now that he's sixteen and his uncle keeps talking about him getting the throne more.

[balanceoflightanddark]

Well... I don't think that Azula hallucinating Ursa is her first hallucination.

Her reaction is slight initial surprise but then she's immeadiatley just ... annoyed. She isn't shocked or freaked out at all. It's like she's used to it. She talks to the hallucination as if it was just another day. Then she smashes the mirror, like she is fully accquainted with the fact that this isn't real.

That's not the reaction of someone who sees and hears their lost mother for the first time. No way.

(Ofc some people don't like to headcannon in this direction of her having long-lasting mental illness and prefer to think it was just a single breakdown. Which I get and is super fine).

Just thought, objectively looking at the scene, there's no freaking way this was her first hallucination.

It looks like she's been dealing with this for quite some time. And surely alone. She couldn't show weakness to Ozai. And I don't think the royal palace is big on mental health.

;

Headcanon that fits this:

Despite Azula's betrayal of Ozai (lying to him, failing him etc.), he still planned to keep using her because... that's what narcissists do. They use you as long as you can be used. And Azula is super useful! Why would he throw her away after all she did for him? When she is still so desperate for his "love"? When she could still be so very useful to him?

He wanted to keep using her, but when he saw Azula starting to "lose her mind", he decided to ditch her.

Iroh: "She's crazy and she needs to go down"

Ozai: "She's crazy... gotta ditch her. (...) Better give her the throne she never wanted so she doesn't kill me. Lmao if she turns on me im dead this bitch has blue fire, killed the avatar and conquered Ba Sing Se. She different. I still can't read maps and fire only comes out when angry"

...okay. Let me just preface this with saying that Ozai's last sentence is hilarious, is completely in-character, and should be framed.

I should also say that...since we're gonna be going into territory which is a bit of a sore subject for myself, whatever I say is not an attempt to tear you down. I do not believe in that and will try to keep this as levelheaded as possible.

With that said, while I certainly respect your opinion on Azula...I still don't believe that she has a mental illness that results in recurring hallucinations. We only have the one scene and there's only so much we can get from that. And I certainly don't think we should base everything we know of a character over their worst and lowest moment. I know because...I was guilty of that with Zuko.

But I digress.

This masterpost belongs to my dear friend @prying-pandora666 who goes into quite a bit of detail concerning Azula and mental health if you're interested. But the crux of it is, when looking at it from the lens of a professional, we don't have any evidence that Azula was mentally ill. Does that mean she wasn't? No. Of course not. It's just we don't have too much onscreen evidence to make a definitive conclusion.

And even if Azula was mentally ill (I don't think she was and was probably suffering from a mental breakdown), one should be careful to make sure it's not overemphasized to the detriment of her upbringing and Ozai's bullshit. After all, even the best kid wouldn't last too long under his parentage without getting SOME kind of trauma.

As for your headcanon, I don't necessarily believe Ozai was aware of Azula's deteriorating mental state. She didn't show any signs of it initially and he left before things got really bad. In this case though, I'd pin the blame more on Ozai's lack of focus on Book 3. Is it possible he saw the signs? Yeah, and I can believe that. Doesn't make him any less of a scumbag for abandoning her. I'd argue it makes him even worse since he left her when she needed him most after years of presenting himself as the only stable adult figure in her life.

And as a quick aside, can please stop using the "crazy and needs to go down" quote as evidence? Eshasz and Greg Baldwin both said that Iroh was in the wrong there for saying that.

...sorry. I have autism which can be constituted as a mental illness, so I get a little bit tender when discussing this. There's nothing inherently wrong with Azula being mentally ill like so many would say and you're completely within your right to believe she is. My personal advice would be to just...be careful is all. Treat Azula as a person instead of a mental illness, never try to give people the wrong idea about mental illnesses or misdiagnosing characters (especially minors) and you'll be fine.

[battleangelaelita]

Because I’m back on my bullshit and apparently one major Azula-centric fic is not enough, I’ve drafted treatments for two more in between picking away at the next chapter of Cinder.

Shattered God

The first, more fleshed out of the two, I’ve given the working title Shattered God, and in vibes I’d say it’s got a healthy dose of John Le Carre spy fiction. It begins ten years after ATLA’s finale, with Azula living under an assumed name in the nascent Republic City. This is not a redemption arc fic; in the time since she escaped the asylum she was incarcerated, she’s tried very hard to just leave it all behind her.

Some days, she’s almost succeeded in forgetting about her old life. Here, as “Lazuli”, she’s made a life of her own, by her own sweat and blood. It’s something she can be proud of, an achievement that can never be taken away. She fell into the brickmaker’s trade when she arrived here, and now she’s a master of the craft. Every day she goes down to the docks with her earthbending apprentice and they buy clay, ash and chalk. They mix them in the right proportions with waterbenders working hand in hand, and they mold them into bricks. When they’ve dried, they kiln them, leaving behind something that will outlive any of them; bricks are used and re-used as structures rise and fall.

This daydream where she can forget she’s Azula ends one day when Toph arrives to arrest her. Azula decides to go quietly. This turns out to be Zuko’s rather heavy handed way of recruiting her for a special job; he’s known her whereabouts for several years and decided to let sleeping dragons lie.

There was an attempted assassination against Zuko and his wife, Fire Lady Katara. Though it failed, it was clear immediately that this plot had men on the inside. There’s a fifth column forming against the Fire Lord, and without knowing who to trust, in desperation Zuko has turned to the one person 1) canny enough to unravel the conspiracy 2) who could not possibly have been involved: Azula.

After a very tense meeting, Azula agrees with great reluctance. It’s only the knowledge that the plot also targeted the Fire Lord’s infant child that sways her, even with Zuko’s strongarming. There is no love lost, but Azula will sus out the traitors.

Act II will be Azula working clandestinely through the threads of evidence, and the many power players in the court. Faced with an overabundance of people with means and motive to be involved in a potential coup, she has to tread carefully. Azula’s not the prodigy she once was; she’s tried to leave that martial part of her life behind her, and her minimally treated PTSD poses a serious threat if she does get into a fight.

Cast-wise, Azula’s interactions, besides the unresolved conflict with Zuko and Ursa, will revolve around Aang and Mai--two people at the top of Zuko’s suspect list, but who nonetheless still are willing to help regardless of how they’ve been personally hurt by the Fire Lord and Fire Lady.

Untitled Irredeemable Azula fic

The second one is less fully fleshed out. It is at this point mostly a concept, and I am still working out how to make the plot and structure less obviously derivative. But the basic idea that has been haunting me is a burning need to create an ATLA story where Azula can play the role of the monster that some people think she is, and do so in a way that can really just pull the rug out from under the reader.

The concept has been heavily inspired by one of my favorite novels, Use of Weapons by Iain M. Banks. It’s one of the few works of fiction that deploys a devastating third act twist that totally turns the reader on their head about the entire story thus far, yet has already given you ever clue you need to know the twist.

The spoiler free version is that it’s a story about a man named Zakalwe whose been spending decades playing mercenary for the good guys, fighting their fights against impossible odds because he’s got a knack for that, while trying to live with and redeem a past that’s haunted him. It’s slowly fed to the reader that many years ago on his home planet, Zakalwe and his foster brother Elithiomel had a very fraught relationship being raised in an aristocratic military family, fighting for recognition for their achievements, the affection of their family, and their place in this rigidly militarist society (does this remind you of anybody).

This conflict culminates in the two of them being major leaders on opposing sides of their country’s civil war, and the man called Zakalwe has been living in the shadow of their final confrontation and how it tore their family apart.

The challenge, of course, is keeping the twist and it’s revelation without being too derivative. It may ultimately not be worth the trouble. I’m mostly throwing this into the void with the hopes of finding at least one other ATLA fan who has also read Use of Weapons and can maybe talk sense into me.

[julietwiskey1]

a while back there was a Sugarbaby!Azula AU going around with Azula and Michi (Mai's mother). so for your SFW asks, 9, how friends/family of the couple react?

Well now, this is an interesting one to be asked.

Part of the set up for sugar baby Azula to work is that she is already isolated from the royal family and her childhood friends to a significant amount. She is at the palace because she has no where else to go. Her old friends don’t care for her, including Mai, and has made no more. If Ursa is around they don’t talk and probably have a hostile relationship.

Ty Lee when she finds out about it is both worried for Azula and disgusted. She knows Michi. Michi might even feel like a parent to her. For her to date Azula feels wrong. Azula is younger than her own daughter. But there might also be mistrust towards Azula. Azula knew that it would hurt Mai. She knows that Azula is a manipulator and is probably in this for her own ends (sometimes it comes into her head that it may be the other way around).

Ty Lee will focus on comforting Mai. Mai is her friend and is deeply hurt by this. She will also brave to talk to Azula and get her to stop the relationship telling her how it hurts Mai and how evil she is for doing it. But sees that Azula actually loves, or believes she does, Michi. And that for Azula it’s no attempt at causing pain. It makes her feel guilty for not being there for Azula but she sees this as to far gone and she has a new life that doesn’t include Azula.

Mai is furious at both her mom and Azula. She doesn’t get along with her mom and never thought anyone would. Now that Azula is with her it feels like a betrayal of whatever friendship they may still have or could have in the future. It elevates her avoidance of her family, because it feels like her mom may have another motive to do this.

Mai would yell at both of them, most of her anger would be centered on Azula. Later she disowns Michi as her mother and doesn’t talk to her or Azula.

Iroh, and Zuko by extension, feel as if it is some sort of political move. Reasons for love or companionship seem unimaginable. Michi husband lead the new Ozai society, perhaps Michi was in on it to. So hooking up with Azula could be a way to gain a legitimate contender to the throne. For Iroh it’s a direct threat against Zuko that needs to be dealt with.

Iroh investigates it as a treasonous plot pulling in White Lotus assets. There is never enough evidence for him to feel comfortable killing either of them. So instead he puts out stories and rumors that destroy both of their reputations, mostly Azula’s. This way Azula will not be seen as a suitable contender for the throne.

Zuko also thinks that this is a way to ruin his life. Azula is going to marry his to be mother in law. A person who has sway over his fiancé. Even if it doesn’t materially change anything it still makes the wedding awkward. And he fears that Mai may call it off accordingly.

Zuko will demand that Azula give up her relationship with Michi or be kicked out of the palace and cut off from her funds. He kicks her out and cuts off her funds. He is also close to striking her from the royal family but Ursa would not allow it. In fact his actions causes a rift between him and Ursa, which he blames on Azula.

Ursa probably sees things the most clear. Even with he abysmal and nearly irrecoverable relationship with Azula she sees that it is because Azula is desperate. Azula is still a child that needs to be protected from the abuse of an adult taking advantage of her. Her strong stance to distance the two and protect Azula will further strain their relationship and actually push Azula further towards Michi.

Ursa will try to get Azula to move to Ember Island now that Zuko won’t let her live in the palace (I headcanon that the ember island home is Ursa’s not the royal family’s). And she will give money to Azula so that she has options all of which Azula refuses. Ursa will also try to reconnect with Azula but fails. She also seriously considers poisoning Michi to save Azula, but eventually believes that will hurt Azula more than help her.

The gaang, not friends with Azula but should be included, are mostly grossed out by the affair. But for them it’s only above a tabloid affair because it directly affects their friend Zuko and worries Iroh. They do see through the idea that it is done for political power, at least on Azula’s part.

The gaang tries to calms everyone down. The see how the actions are pushing Azula towards Michi. Some will try to become friends with Azula and give her an out, which Michi would try to put a stop to. But I think with persistence either Sokka or Katara would succeed in becoming her friend. And when Azula finally realizes how she is being abused and controlled by Michi they will offer her a refuge in the Southern Water Tribe.

[akiizayoi4869]

Isn't the evidence that Ursa didn't think Azula was a monster, that she made Zuko play with her (apple incident)? If Zuko was her precious baby and Azula was a monster child why would she force Zuko to play with her? In that scene Azula clearly knew her mother would make Zuko play with her if she asked as she did (indicating that she had done stuff like this before). So it is reasonable for people to assume it is, at least partially, Ozai's influence that made her believe Ursa thought she was a monster.

We get 'What is wrong with that child?' And Ursa making Zuko play with Azula.

We get 'My mother thought I was a monster,' and 'I love you, Azula' both years later.

We also do get moments of her comforting Zuko (and not Azula) but those are all Zuko flashbacks. We know very little about their relationship but I think both interpretations are valid.

You're right, from what little we saw, Ursa didn't view Azula as a monster. But it's not so much of "did Ursa see Azula as a monster?" as it is "did Ursa make Azula feel as if she saw her as a monster?" because that's pretty much what the line "My own mother thought I was a monster" means. We have no way of knowing if Ursa actually called Azula a monster to her face at some point before she was banished. What we do know is that how Ursa treated/acted towards Azula versus how Ursa treated/acted towards Zuko is what ultimately solidified this belief in Azula's mind. We're shown Ursa being stern with Azula whenever she acts up or says something that she shouldn't have. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong with reprimanding your kid when they act up. What isn't fine, however, is just being stern with them and not explaining why whatever it was that they said or did was wrong, like what we saw her do with Zuko. When he threw the loaf of bread at the turtle ducks, Ursa scolds him. But it's the way that she does it. She spoke gently to him, explaining why what he did was wrong when the mother turtle duck bit him. And she hugs him at the end. With Azula, all we see is her telling Azula that she shouldn't say certain things, never explaining why and just expecting Azula to know better (which is incredibly stupid since Azula is the younger child, but I digress) and just dismissing her. No gentle tone, no hugging, nothing. During the scene where Zuko and Azula were performing for Azulon, Ursa didn't say anything when Azula performed her firebending with no errors at all. Zero acknowledgement. When Zuko messed up and was visibly upset about it, Ursa quickly ran over to him and comforted him, saying that she "loved watching him". So yeah, if that were me? I too would think that there is something wrong with me, that I'm a monster, because why else would my own mother treat me so differently in comparison to my sibling?

[zuko-always-lies]

Do you think Ozai somehow meddled with Azula and Ursa's relationship leading the former to trust Ursa less and warping her view on how Ursa interacts with her vs how she interacts with Zuko? There's not a single evidence in canon though, but the idea does sound interesting to me.

It's possible, although it's not my favored interpretation. Definetely I've seen this theory thrown around a lot to excuse Ursa's parenting, by people who argue she treated Azula fine but Ozai just gaslit Azula into thinking Ursa didn't love her. I don't like that argument, particularly since we have three different sources(Ursa's show bio, Zuko's memories, and Azula's account), all which suggest that Ursa showed clear and obvious favoritism toward Zuko, and none which suggest she ever showed Azula much love.

In any case, I personally don't favor the idea that Ozai manipulated Azula into thinking Ursa didn't love her. For one, it seems too machiavellian for my concept of Ozai. I think Ozai can be very mannipulative, particularly toward his children, but I also think it wasn't necessarily his natural reaction and at times he seems almost painfully straightfoward. Spending years screwing with his daughter's perception of her mother(when Azula is already loyal to him and adores him, in any case, and Ozai and Ursa aren't in clear conflict yet anyways) just doesn't feel like something he would do to me. I think Ursa and Azula are the real schemers in the family.

I also think that, from what see with Zuko, Ozai probably made mentioning Ursa at all taboo in the palace after her exile. It was too personally painfully and too closely tied to the sordid rise of power he would like to bury. I doubt he was talking about Ursa with either Zuko or Azula, at that point.

Again, I know other people have other opinions, but I have never favored this idea myself.

[juniperhillpatient]

The Earth King Re-Watch

This was a fun episode. I wouldn't call it one of my favorites, but I enjoyed it. Seeing Aang & Appa finally reunited is pretty heartwarming. I was a little annoyed & confused by Sokka's random new "positive attitude" even though he had some really endearing moments in this episode. I just don't get it. Yeah, Appa is back but you just discovered an underground creepy brainwashing cult & your old frienemy was killed? You have no reason to believe you're any closer to convincing King Kuei to hear you out? I can see the whole "brand new positive attitude" thing happening once the other good news hits later, but right at the start? It just felt jarring & weird.

Katara saying she wants to leave this horrible place....I will take my "Jet's death mattered" crumbs where I can get them. I think Katara & Toph's idea to leave makes a lot of sense, but so does Sokka & Aang's desire to force Kui to hear them out...I mean, they are trying to plan this attack on the eclipse...So, that was a well-set-up conflict, because both sides make sense. I also absolutely loved the fight scene with the Gaang breaking into the palace! Everything about it was iconic. It was neat to see Aang use earth-bending in a fight against earth-benders too because he usually relies heavily on air-bending. I loved Katara & Sokka apologizing lmao - & Toph saying Kue's distrust after they broke in made sense.

Kue is a bit pathetic & easily pushed around so I'm not a huge fan of him. Bumi has a chaotic morality & he's not always the most LIKABLE person but at least he's fun so I always enjoy him. Kue is just pathetic, & not even in the hot way lol

Possibly the best part of the episode was Katara telling Sokka that he gets to see their dad & Sokka bouncing around in excitement & hugging her & kissing her while she's just like "yeah yeah, I know, I'm great."

[ID: Sokka saying "Nicest....sister...ever!" to Katara while Aang & Toph watch.]

Also, the Gaang talking about how they will miss each other while they're split up was really cute. I loved the group hug & Sokka like "alright alright, we love each other" trying to end the hug was such a mood - me when friends or family try to get all touchy-feely lol! Sokka gets 10 iconic behavior points for interrupting Aang before he could confess his crush on Katara. I wish I was giving out jerk points so I could give them to Aang for the line "yeah, girls are waiting for us." Ugh, pushing the Katara/Aang agenda before Jet's body is even cold? The writers deserve jerk points for that tbh! Not even Aang really, 'cause he's just a kid with a crush, but I'm still allowed to be annoyed.

Anyway. Zuko gets 500 iconic behavior points for doing one nice thing in his entire life & immediately collapsing like a Victorian maiden. Zuko you drama queen, ily. However, while I've said this re-watch has made me appreciate Zukaang I MEANT the romantic ship Zuko & Aang NOT this monstrosity that lives in my nightmares.

[id: a horrifying image of Zuko & Aang's faces combined.]

What the fuck lmao

As for the rest of Zuko's dreams.....Very interesting lines from Azula & a very interesting performance from our lord & savior Grey Delisle. I will say nothing more about that :)

[id: Dennis from It's Always Sunny saying "because of the implication..."]

Anyway *ahem* right, I think Zuko clearly sees his father & sister as sort of devils & Iroh as an angel on his shoulder. This is what the writers were going for, & an unpopular opinion maybe but I think it works to an extent. The biggest issue here is that Zuko continues until the end of the series to treat Iroh like a messiah of good & he never learns to view Azula with any more nuance despite evidence that Iroh is not perfect & Azula is not irredeemable. Another issue I take is that while I love Azula as the embodiment of the Fire Nation & that darker path here, especially right before Crossroads of Destiny, & I actually find the shifting of the blame about Ursa's disappearance & by extension Zuko's bad childhood from Ozai to Azula super interesting - it's again, just something that's never addressed as wrong by the narrative & therefore becomes frustrating.

[id: Azula as a blue dragon next to a scarless Zuko]

I would have liked to see Zuko's black & white way of thinking about his uncle & sister (which is just really obvious here with the angel & devil motifs) addressed by the narrative. However, I don't think the whole "two sides arguing for different paths through dream visions" in itself is bad. It's certainly fun to watch & makes for a nice visualization of Zuko's internal struggle. Oh, Zuko & Azula get +500 iconic behavior points for foreshadowing the Crossroads of Destiny betrayal. I know it's just a fever dream version of Azula, but she still gets the points.

Oh, & Azula, Mai & Ty Lee get 1000 points each for their Kyoshi Warrior surprise reveal at the end. I love them so fucking much.

Anyway, that's all I have for this episode! Tune in next time for more rambling thoughts on the kid's cartoon!