#The hypocrisy of some fans though...

[astralleywright]

thinking about laudna saying to elder abbadina "there's a thin line between savior and oppresser." bc like. laudna bestie. i love you. i get that you're going through a Lot at the moment and hardcore projecting your own trauma onto this situation. but dear god what an obnoxious thing to say to someone who just freed their town from the control of a much more powerful, wealthy, and connected group of colonizers

[the-irreverend]

The Inferno Theory: The Chara Theory to End All Chara Theories

Here we are! Nine years of Undertale. And seeing how Chara is heavily associated with the number 9 (AND THAT TOBY FOX FINALLY TALKED ABOUT THEM), I can't think of a better way to celebrate the occasion than by dedicating this 5000-word-long theory about them? Y'all remember when people used to make long-ass theories about Chara? Yeah, they're coming back with a vengeance! To say I have a colossal hyperfixation is a massive understatement. No character in all of fiction has had a bigger impact on my life than this little rose-cheeked, cocoa-addicted freak. I’ve been a Chara fan for as long as I’ve been an Undertale fan, and you can bet that my understanding of them has changed a lot since. And now I have the pleasure of sharing said understandings with y’all!

Once upon a time, there was an aroace autistic who, like most of y’all, had a very unhealthy obsession with Undertale. And unlike most of you, he thought the Genocide Route was really fun. Most fans talk about how unhappy they felt killing everyone, but for me, I felt like a polar bear at a baby harp seal convention. I got a disturbing level of happiness out of turning everyone to dust. Hell, the only unhappiness I felt was when I couldn’t turn Monster Kid to dust.

Oh well, at least I got a good consolation prize!

I was one sadistic son of a gun, and so I was even more delighted to find out I had a secret admirer/partner-in-crime and that they joined in on the fun because I was such a goshdarn inspiration to them. Not wishing to disappoint my self-appointed partner, I erased the world without a second thought, eagerly awaiting what we might get to do together.

So you can guess I was pretty taken aback when, instead of a warm welcome, they started lecturing me about how I couldn’t accept the world’s destruction and that I was the one fully responsible for it (even though they were eager to take credit for it earlier). I didn’t think much of it at first. Initially, I just thought that they were just irritated that I was undoing what we had worked so hard to accomplish.

But as this game taught me time after time, you should never trust your first impressions. Those first impressions would crumble to dust when they said this.

To say I was completely baffled is an understatement. Why the hell would this prepubescent genocidal maniac be so obsessed over whether or not I think I’m above consequences? So obsessed to the point they would tell me to go to hell if I told them no? It was at that moment I realized there was something more to this character than meets the eye. But for a long time, I couldn’t seem to figure out what that something was. And it didn’t seem like anyone could figure that out either.

I’m very much a veteran of the fan wars that have emerged surrounding Chara. In fact, one might even say I am a deserter of sorts, as I am a former member of the Chara Defence Squad, Offense Squad, and Neutralist Squad. But I’m not gonna be a stuck-up and say everyone’s a canon-ignoring idiot except for me and that I’m the only one who knows what Toby Fox intended Chara to be. Even though I ended up with a very different take than yours (and will certainly argue why it’s the best), I owe you all your discussions a huge debt, and I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t gotten invested in your interpretations, to begin with. Not to mention that, contrary to what some may argue, you’ve made some valid points to complement them.

And while the debate that resulted from Chara’s ambiguous morality has led to a lot of controversy and even toxicity, it has also been a source of some FANTASTIC CONTENT. Like seriously, would we have gotten those badass renditions of Stronger Than You if no one thought Chara was an awful person? Would we have gotten Man on the Internet’s beautiful rendition of Star if no one thought Chara was a good person (turned awful)?

It would be utter hypocrisy for me to ask of you to approach me and my arguments (or anyone who accepts them) with understanding and good faith only to then not do the same to anyone who doesn’t agree with me. In this theory, I will definitely argue why some points made about Chara are flawed; points that you might hold yourself. But that doesn’t automatically mean that you (or your takes) are intellectually or morally inferior to mine. And besides, I’m not Toby Fox.

So with that said, why did I eventually came to disagree with pretty much everyone about Chara? Because, one way or another, I couldn’t find a take that clicked with me personally as I felt there were various inconsistencies and issues holding them back. I looked at YouTube videos, subreddits, Tumblr essays, Twitter threads, and even forums on the Steam Community. But I couldn’t really find what I thought were satisfactory answers to the questions I had about Chara’s motivations, role in the game, and relationship with the player.

And then, one day, I found those answers. It all happened when I asked myself: “What if Chara didn’t turn against me… because they were always against me from the start?!”

I don’t mean that Chara only saw you as a means to an end. I mean that YOU were the end. What if Chara didn’t use you so they could screw over the monsters but they used the monsters so they could screw over YOU.

You probably think I’m insane, don’t you? And you’re right! I AM INSANE! AND SO IS THIS WHOLE DAMN THEORY!!! But somehow, someway, it just works!! And I’ll show you why and how!!!

What you are about to read is the culmination of six years of reading and critiquing Chara takes and theories of every kind and quality, whether it be Judgement Boy’s Who is the Real Villain of Undertale to Wandydoodles’ Oblivion Theory. Six years of examining the arguments and counterarguments of Chara defenders, offenders, and neutralists alike. Six years of looking in every corner of the UTDR fandom. From the tranquil lands of Quora. To the dark recesses of Reddit. To the intellectual wastelands of Twitter. To the fiery hellsite of Tumblr. So, without further ado, get ready for some of the most pure, unadulterated, high-octane, universe-collapsing neurodivergence you’ve ever seen in your life!!!!!

Part 1: The demonic heritage of the "demon who comes when people call its name".

Have you ever had one of those moments where you’ve asked yourself, “What the actual hell is this guy talking about?” I bet you’re having that moment right now. Everything about their character post-death, including their motives, their methods, and their relationship with you, is perfectly reflected in one of their most famous (or rather infamous) lines:

When most people hear the word demon, the first thing that comes to mind is a being made of pure evil whose only purpose in life is to destroy all things good in the world. Right?

Well, yes, but actually, no. It’s a little more complicated than that. To argue that Chara is a demon because they’re simply “an evil little twerp that enjoys being evil” doesn’t do them or their role in Undertale justice (although that hasn’t stopped people from trying to argue that). To understand why calling themselves a demon is EXTREMELY important, we need to dive into the wonderful (and totally not controversial) world of religious beliefs!

In ancient and modern religions, demons are a little more complex than just ethereal jackasses with a vendetta against virtue and righteousness. Though they vary from faith to faith, most demons have a specific set of qualities and tropes that make them integral to whatever faith they’re in. You also see these demonic qualities in fiction that’s derived or inspired by religions, and since Undertale’s lore and worldbuilding have a heavy emphasis on the spiritual and divine, you can see them in Chara. Since Undertale is a game of “Western” origin, you can definitely see they share qualities that are all too familiar with devils of “Western” religions. In classic devil fashion, they target those with weak integrities or suspect morals; they tempt you with the promise of fulfilling your desires at your and everyone else’s expense; they’re able to control your body as you grow their power through your sins, and hell, they even do the thing where they make a deal for your soul. Also...

But though it's evident that Chara encourages you to do “evil,” THEY THEMSELVES are not responsible for it. Yes, Chara encouraged you to kill, but YOU are the one who acted on those encouragements. In fact, YOU are the one who encouraged THEM to help you out! They walked down the dark path with you, but you didn’t really give them anywhere else they could walk. You had all the power and every chance to turn back and no reason to keep walking. And yet you persisted.

But that does beg the question, why did you walk it at all? What could possibly inspire you to give all of these characters happiness, satisfaction, and peace and then rip it all away? Because you decided that giving everyone the most satisfying ending was not satisfying enough for you. Because there was more that you could experience for yourself, even if it meant making everyone else experience something absolutely horrific. It wasn’t enough for you to fill the glass only halfway. You needed to fill it to the brim. You wanted to reach the absolute. Even if doing the Genocide Run was a bad experience for you, you CANNOT deny it was a fulfilling one. And Chara knows it, too. It ain’t exactly a coincidence that fulfillment and fullness are recurring motifs in Chara’s character.

Like all demons, Chara is able to tempt the wicked and sinful by targeting our greatest weaknesses and deficiencies. It’s no different from how Succubi and Incubi target those who succumb to the sin of lust. That’s why you won’t go after my aroace ass anytime soon. But I digress.

But Chara doesn't just tempt us by exploiting our need to fill the glass to the brim but also because of how they exploit the satisfaction we get from watching it fill up, that is to say, the satisfaction that comes from trying to achieve fulfillment.

We humans are addicted to progression as much as we are to completion, and in an RPG like Undertale, the satisfaction of progression comes in the form of NUMBERS. Not just the numbers that flash on the screen when you battle enemies but also the ones that go up when you finish said enemies off, whether it be your hit points, experience points, and so on. And Undertale isn’t any ordinary RPG; it’s one where its RPG elements are interwoven into the fabric of the game’s universe. Because of that, Chara is able to use these elements in their world to influence those outside of it.

But Chara does not just influence us through the numbers that increase but also the ones that decrease. That’s why the first thing they do when we reach Snowdin is give us a tally. 

It’s not just there to measure progress. It’s also there to incentivize us to keep progressing. It gives us a small dose of satisfaction that’s enough to distract us from the mundanity and misery of the murder run, like a loading bar on a loading screen. And just like with loading screens, the farther it progresses, the harder it gets to turn away. Why would you want all the lives you’ve taken and the stats you’ve gained to amount to nothing? Why would you want to hit reset and go through those brutal fights with Sans and Undyne again? You can’t empty out the glass, not when you’re that much closer to filling it to the brim. Speaking of Sans and Undyne, it’s quite interesting that even though they barely know you, they know exactly why you won’t take your foot off the pedal, so to speak.

But that’s not the only thing driving you, isn’t it? Chara knows that there was something else that was spurning you along. Something more powerful and more dangerous than your addiction to progression and completion: PRIDE. 

Perhaps the real reason you kept giving in to sin until it was far too late was because you didn’t think it would be too late. You didn’t hold back because you thought you would be able to go back. You thought you could just absolve your sins with the press of a button like you did in countless worlds before. You thought you could dive in, touch the bottom, and come back out of the water. But what were you getting into? How deep would you have gone? And would you have gone in if you knew you couldn’t possibly return? You know you wouldn’t. And Chara knows it, too. That brings us back to the dialogue I showed you at the beginning of this theory. The one said changed everything I knew about this character, and I firmly believe that this is the MOST important line of dialogue in the entire franchise.

PART 2: THE PART WHERE I (PRETEND TO) DESTROY 9 YEARS OF ESTABLISHED FANON!

When I say that that little blurb about being above consequences is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, I do not say that lightly. It isn’t just important to Chara's character, but the game of Undertale as a whole! Anyone who’s serious about Chara’s character should never take this for granted because Chara sure as hell does not.

It’s not just our refusal to accept the world’s destruction that’s a huge-ass deal to Chara; it’s the arrogance and complacency that accompanies it, rooted in the position and privileges we have as the player. It matters to them so much that they’re willing to completely forgo bartering for our soul (which they say they want) if we don’t admit that we have that belief!

And yet, despite Chara taking this subject so seriously, the people who are analyzing their character ironically don’t. Generally speaking, most people simply brush this line off as nothing more than something they do to help them on their quest to achieve their goals. So, with that said, let’s talk about what those supposed goals actually are.

In all my years of reading and assessing countless Chara theories and interpretations, I’ve discovered that everyone actually agrees on what Chara's goals are. They just can’t agree on why they want them. Said goals are A) reach the absolute, B) max out their numbers/power, C) erase the world, and/or D) eradicate all monsters. But what if it’s actually the other way around? What if those things were the means to an end rather than the ends themselves?

What if the true goal of the “demon who comes when people call its name” was just like that of the demons of old: not to be your partner in crime, but to torment and punish you for your crimes? To make you face CONSEQUENCES!

I’m not making this argument simply because it makes Chara look more badass (though I think it totally does, lol). I firmly believe that Undertale’s post-Genocide content is written so that Chara’s character can only make sense if that was Chara’s goal from start to finish. Because if Chara’s endgame was any of those four I mentioned earlier, their character kinda falls apart because they're awfully inconsistent about fulfilling them. And those inconsistencies are evident in the Second Geno Ending.

Discrepancy 1) They say they will “appear time and time again” to help us “eradicate the enemy and become strong,” and yet they call us perverted for eradicating everyone time and time again.

You can argue that they didn’t want us to recreate the world in the first place and just move on to another world, but if so, why let us come back at all? And if it’s to get our soul, why do they keep around this world after we have it? This leads us to...

Discrepancy 2) They tell us to ERASE the world and move on to the next, and yet they allow us to restore it without a hitch after we give them our SOUL, seeing how there’s no black void when we start the game again.

If Chara was powerless to stop us from coming back, this wouldn’t be such a big deal. But they CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE that they’re able to stop the player from restoring the world, as seen in the first post-genocide ending. And yet they don’t use this power after the first time the world is erased (WHICH YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD WANT TO USE SINCE THEY WANT TO ERASE THE WORLD AND MOVE ON TO ANOTHER)! Seeing how the world is back again without us doing anything makes the restoration of the world like something that Chara CHOSE ON THEIR OWN VOLITION. And what makes this all the more damning is...

Discrepancy 3) They tell us they’re down bad for increasing our ATK, DEF, EXP, and LV to the max and erasing the world and everyone in it, and yet they TELL US TO DEVIATE FROM THE ONLY ROUTE THAT ACCOMPLISHES THAT (which, as stated before, they call us perverse for doing it again).

So, let me get something straight. You tell us you want to ”eradicate the enemy” and “ erase this pointless world,” and yet not only are you allowing us to undo all of that, you want us to do something INSTEAD OF THAT??? It’s funny how you lecture us about how we cannot accept the world’s destruction BECAUSE, APPARENTLY, YOU WON’T EITHER!!!!! Also, before I forget...

Discrepancy 4)

WHAT KIND OF MISANTHROPE DEDICATES THEIR WHOLE LIFE TO WIPING OUT HUMANITY, GETS GIFT-WRAPPED A CHANCE TO DO THAT, AND THEN JUST PASSES IT UP?!?!?!

On behalf of misanthropes everywhere, I am DEEPLY disappointed in you!

So it doesn’t matter if you believe Chara is always evil, good, or detached from morality entirely. Because Chara has the same goal across all versions, they all succumb to the same inconsistencies!

Funny how most people see them as this embodiment of the addictive nature of levelling up and consuming everything in a piece of media and all that jazz WHEN THEY SEEM TO CASUALLY GIVE UP ON IT!!!!!!

And if you argue they want a Soulless Pacifist Run when they suggest “another path,” then ask yourself, what does that give them that a Genocide Run doesn’t? Keep in mind, aside from a scribbled-out photograph, we don’t see how many monsters or humans they killed besides the main characters or how much power and stats they gained from it. And it’s not like we see them erase the world afterward since only the genocide run has that infamous wall of red 9s. Not to mention, the genocide run is the most secure way of accomplishing their goals since they have the backing of the player. Not only that, but it’s also the safest and most efficient way to erase everyone and increase stats to the fullest, and we all know how Chara feels about efficiency.

So Chara has no reason to pick the Soulless pacifist ending over the Genocide Run if they want to achieve their end of increasing numbers and consuming the world… unless those things were a means to an end rather than ends themselves.

Indeed it is coming together! That’s the other reason their statement, “You think you’re above consequences,” is so damn important! They’re not telling us why we sinned, but it reveals they intend to make us suffer for those sins, and how.

That’s why Chara is seemingly so inconsistent about erasing the world. Because it was never about the world. It was all about YOU.

[SIDE NOTE: I’m sure many of you will point out that if Chara wanted us to get a Soulless ending in this world, then why would they encourage us to “move on to the next?” I don’t think this is too big an issue for two reasons. First, this line is meant to emphasize that, like all demons, Chara is inescapable and that no matter what world you go to (within their own universe), Chara will always follow you now that you’ve unleashed them. Second, because their goal concerns us and not the world they’re a part of, their character avoids the aforementioned inconsistencies that hamper the other Chara theories much more severely, in my opinion.]

Part 3: Contrapasso

Now I’m sure some of y’all might think that Chara doesn’t need to yearn for our torment to achieve the impact of the Soulless ending and that just because Chara is a demon doesn’t automatically mean they need to screw us over. You are right in that not everyone who makes a Faustian Bargain needs to have malicious intentions toward the people they’re taking advantage of (Kuybey from Madoka Magica is a great example of that). But Chara does need it! Not only does it make their character more narratively cohesive, but also makes their character more thematically impactful. And it’s more in tune with their demonic nature for them to want to torment us.

Because demons represent something more terrifying than evil itself. They represent the terrible price of embracing it, a price that all evildoers fear more than anything, and that all demons want seek to inflict upon us. Like most demons, Chara isn’t encouraging us to sin to fill the emptiness in our soul (or even their own). They did it to perpetuate that torturously empty and unfulfilled state for all eternity, a state which even themselves now endure.

Now, you’ve probably noticed that I’ve talked a lot about the themes of fulfillment and emptiness, and it’s for a good reason since those themes are heavily featured in Undertale. I mean, how could it not? Because concepts of demons, hell, and sins (which are explicitly mentioned in the game) are deeply intertwined with the concept of emptiness. The theologian Thomas Aquinas once defined evil as not a presence but as an absence (of that which is good). Darkness is the absence of light; war is the absence of peace; bigotry is the absence of tolerance; pride is the absence of humility, etc. You see this reflected in not just Christian theology but also fiction as a whole, as a lot of villains are motivated by a desire to obtain something that they believe can’t be without. Whether it be wealth, status, recognition, power, the death of an individual, or even just sadistic pleasure.

Since demons are beings that are inseparable from evil itself, the life of a demon is forever cursed by unceasing and unbearable emptiness. Hell, the word damnation originated from the Latin word damnum, which literally means loss! They’re not exactly partying in hell while your immortal soul is being slow-roasted for eternity. They’re burning in that lake of fire and brimstone along with you! They can’t end their damnation, not because they don’t want to but because they simply can’t. They’re fated to be bereft of the satisfaction or fulfillment found in Heaven or Earth, a fate that is worse than death in every sense of the word, especially since they can’t experience death anymore. Because of that, a demon embodies what is perhaps the most terrifying form of evil of all: not one rooted in a desire to rid the emptiness and unfulfillment within themselves, but a desire to inflict them upon others. Because as a wise philosopher once said:

We see this horrific state of mutually assured suffering everywhere across fiction. From goofy, lighthearted tokusatsu's...

...to nightmarish sci-fi dystopias...

...to a little indie game made 9 years ago.

Oh yeah. Don’t think I was gonna talk about emptiness without mentioning everyone’s favourite homicidal fauna-turned-flora, especially not with lines like this.

Take one to know one! And it can’t be a coincidence that the game emphasizes the theme of emptiness when giving the spotlight to the three characters that have committed the most “evil”: Flowey/Asriel, Chara, and YOU.

Quite the unholy trinity going on here, eh? It truly is fascinating how the emptiness led us to work with each other to exterminate all monsters. And it’s also interesting how the unique kind of emptiness we have eventually led us to work against each other. Whether it be Flowey wishing to preserve his sentimentality for his long-gone sibling, us players wanting to maintain our (perverted) sentimentality for the world of Undertale, or Chara weaponizing these sentimentalities to exact their misanthropic hatred.

Remember how I said that Chara was a lousy misanthrope because they keep letting us bring back the humans they wanted annihilated when they were alive? That does make them a lousy misanthrope… unless their misanthropy found a higher priority target: YOU!!!!! Chara’s desire to torment us didn’t come out of thin air. The same hatred that drove them to wipe out the humans of their world years ago is the same hatred that’s driving them to get at the humans of our world, even if it means destroying those who once embraced them. And now, that hatred is more potent and destructive than ever before, so much so that it’s no wonder Toriel was able to feel it when she endured that fatal blow after the Geno Run began.

Do you think witnessing what soullessness did to sweet little Asriel wasn’t already terrifying and tragic enough? Just try to imagine what it could‘ve done to a vengeful, traumatized, chocolate-addicted problem child so consumed by hatred that they poisoned themselves just for a chance to wipe out their own kind. All of that hatred of humanity is still alive and well, and now it has no humanity to hold it back. 

And what could be a more fitting target for a MISANTHROPE that calls themselves a DEMON… than a HUMAN that wants to play GOD?

After all, the only thing demons love more than tormenting mortals is warring with Gods.

Why else do you think that Chara winks right at you if we make Frisk stay with Toriel? Because that’s who the Soulless Ending was meant for. It’s when they’re finally able to unleash all that animosity and hatred that’s been lurking behind that smile ever since we killed everyone in the Ruins. It’s the moment that they’ve been patiently waiting for because they knew that’s when it would hit you the hardest.

And what makes the Soulless Pacifist Ending very special compared to other “bad endings” isn’t simply because they destroy those we pretend to care about (may I remind you that you did do the genocide run, after all). But they destroy something much more valuable to us as the players: OUR OMNIPOTENCE. Chara doesn’t destroy people for the sake of destroying them. But because in doing so they destroy our arrogant belief that nothing could possibly challenge the invisibility and invulnerability we players take for granted.

It's all too human that those with the most power are the least willing to lose it (or even take responsibility for it). And in a world where we should have absolute power, we thought there would be no consequences for abusing it. So what could be a more fitting and frightful punishment than having to actually face them? Missing out on the best ending in a video game is one thing. But to forever lose the power to achieve it ever again?! Now that’s terrifying!

Throughout myth, legend, and religion, sinners are often punished in a way befitting of the sin they’ve committed. In Greek Mythology, Tantalus was damned for trying to feed the Gods the flesh of his murdered son with eternal hunger and thirst despite being within arm’s reach of water and food. In Dante’s Inferno, those who succumb to wrath are forever doomed to fight each other in a river of mud. And since Undertale is no stranger to concepts such as hell, sins, and demons, you can damn well be sure that there’s going to be damnation fitting for the sins that drove you to complete the genocide run.

You completed the Genocide Run because you believed ending their lives would be fulfilling. Now, you can no longer get any fulfillment out of saving their lives.

I mean, where else can you get your precious fulfillment? Those paltry neutral endings? They only offer a fraction of what the pacifist ending offered. And the genocide ending has been drained of its satisfaction like the pacifist! Would you do all that tedious grinding and brutal boss fights just to hear your so-called “partner” lecture you again on perverted sentimentality and say you should choose another path, even though there’s nothing that they could offer? Of course not. In the end, you’re just like poor Tantalus agonizing in the pits of Tartarus, feeling the water vanish from his hands just before it touches his lips.

The ultimate triumph of Chara isn’t making you suffer a total defeat, but perhaps something much worse to you as a gamer: a pyrrhic victory. It’s like having a Twinkie that's been drained of the creamy center. Everything is still there except the thing you treasure most. You’re damned to play a challenge forever deprived of any and all fulfillment you once got from it, a satisfying journey that will always be doomed to reach a dissatisfying destination.

In the end, Chara leaves you with the world exactly as they described it the first time they met you face-to-face: POINTLESS.

You can have the world exactly as it was before (and the people within it). But in the end, Chara will always have the last laugh.

Figuratively and literally.

Welcome to hell!

Part 4: Why Consequences Matter

Woooooo!!! Man, that was quite the read, wasn’t it? And yeah, I wasn't kidding when I said this is going to be autistic as all hell! I don’t doubt you have a lot of thoughts in your mind, and then you’re gonna share them by the time you’re finished reading this post. Some of you might think this is the Chara theory to end Chara theories. Some of you believe that this is the worst thing that has happened to this fandom since Sebastian Wolff. Some of y’all, I’m whitewashing them because I argue they’re driven by a desire to punish the wicked by any means necessary. Some will think I’m demonizing them because I say that they’re, well, a demon. 

[SIDE NOTE: Just so I don’t miscommunicate what I believe about Chara’s morality, here are some key points to take away from this theory. A) Chara sought to make you pay for the evil you committed. In fact, the idea that the Soulless Ending is Chara punishing our sins has been around for a while, especially by those who think Chara was “corrupted. B) However, in this theory, Chara's actions are all done with the intent of accomplishing that goal. This means that Chara was aware of what they were doing, they wanted to do it, and that THEY KNEW IT WAS EVIL. C) But you still have to remember that Chara is also A LITERAL CHILD. And D) They’re a child who endured a great deal of hardship (and possibly trauma), which made them so embittered and vengeful. Also, E) Remember that they’re also soulless, just like Asriel when he was Flowey.]

But I think most of you were gonna look at this interpretation of Chara and feel the same thing that I have about most of yours: a take that’s not without issues, but not without a fair bit of interesting points.

But regardless of what you think of this theory overall, there’s one thing I won’t leave up for debate: I deeply treasure Chara’s character. Not just because I think they’re fun, cool, or interesting but also because I firmly believe they’re invaluable Undertale. And yet, at the same time, I think they’re severely undervalued by the fandom. And who can blame them?

The characters of Undertale speak very little of Chara, and Chara speaks for themselves even less. But just like Johan Liebert from the anime Monster, even though they’re not seen too often, they still manage to exert a massive presence and impact within Undertale’s narrative. And that presence is made all the more impactful because they perfectly represent the themes of the narrative: and that theme is CONSEQUENCES, or more accurately, the CONSEQUENCES OF VIOLENCE.

From the violence that drove Chara to climb Mt Ebott to the violence their brother Asriel inflicted in hopes of being with them forever. From something as grand as a war between two civilizations to something as small as dismembering a snowman. Everywhere you look, you will see that violence (and its repercussions) haunts the story and characters of Undertale. But what makes Undertale stand out from other media that tackles this subject is that it’s not just an integral part of its narrative but also its metanarrative. The most ingenious way it does this is by giving meaning to the actions/mechanics that we take for granted, specifically monster encounters.

Our Lord and Saviour Toby Fox said it best:

Because the monsters of Undetale are treated as something more than just enemies to be killed, there are going to be consequences for choosing to kill them away. Some argue that it goes too far in how it admonishes you for killing even a single monster, even to the point of being preachy (I’m looking at you, ScottFalco, but that’s a response for another day).

That argument is deeply flawed because it fails to account for the fact that without these ramifications, the game’s themes would be rendered null and void. The last thing that a game with a narrative centred around the consequences of violence can afford to do is afford you the luxury of avoiding them. And that principle especially applies if you dare to choose nothing BUT violence. //////If you were to bring them all back as if nothing happened, then your decision to commit genocide would be completely meaningless, which would totally disservice Undertale themes regarding violence. There needs to be consequences. LASTING CONSEQUENCES. Undertale can’t drive home its messages and them without lasting consequences. Undertale can’t deliver those consequences without Chara in the driver’s seat. And Chara’s character can only be at their most narratively cohesive and thematically impactful if seeking to make us suffer consequences was their intended destination.

Regardless of whatever detail about Chara you’re discussing or what side of the discussion you’re on, one thing is very clear: they’re absolutely essential to Undertale in the same way that Mephistopheles is essential to Faust, the Cenobites are essential to Hellraiser, and Kuybey is essential to Madoka Magica. And they’re the only ones with the means, motives, and deep-seated misanthropy to hold this whole damn game together.

Sans is right. We deserve to be burning in hell for what we did to those poor monsters. And I can't think of anyone more qualified to have us humans “burning in hell” than a self-proclaimed demon with a seething hatred of humanity.

And how fitting is it that the skeleton who judges our sins is followed by a human child who punishes us for them?

BUT HEY, THAT'S JUST A THEORY!

A CHARA THEORY!

THANKS FOR READING!

[writingforatwistedworld]

Requests are open?? May I request Lilia and Malleus from the self aware au with a player who is an artist and draws them a lot?

Self-aware au

I do not take any responsibility for you reading this no matter which age group you are from!

WARNINGS: Yandere themes, obsession, death, murder, hypocrisy, fire, coma, unhealthy relationship, possessive behavior

Malleus Draconia/Lilia Vanrouge-Player is an artist who draws them a lot

Doesn't matter what kind of style and form of art you practice, you have a fan

Classical? Great! Realism? Wonderful! Stick-man-style? He put the picture in a golden frame (All hail the stick-man style!)

But if Malleus were to ever find out that said stick man is supposed to be him, well he would be over the moon

It was a totally normal day, a cat was choking up a hairball and some poor student fell off of his broom in flying class and was now stuck in a tree

But that is of no importance to us

What is of importance though is Malleus strolling down the path down to Ramshackle and seeing you sit on the stairs with paper and other drawing utensils

Completely normal. Peaceful even. Maybe a bit too peaceful

You see, if you hadn't been too absorbed into rubbing colored pigments into dead wood then you would have seen the tall black wall approaching you

A shadow falls over your shoulder and you scream

Is that... him? Why is the Overseer draw-oh

Malleus is metaphorically (more or less. Meh, he is probably this close to doing it also literally) frothing from his mouth after seeing himself in more than just one paper after the small stack stabilizing the paper you drew on slipped from your hands

Forgetting his manners he rips the paper from the ground, staring with eyes wide as plates onto the thinly pressed wood (granny is somewhere shaking her head)

Why would the Overseer, watcher over worlds, almighty ruler of everything, a god, draw him?

Coughing nervously you explained that you just are interested in are and liked to draw him

Later when he is back in Diasomnia Lilia is greeted with the sight of a tail-wagging Malleus (yes Malleus has a tail and I have no idea how he hides it)

“Lilia, the Overseer likes to draw me.”-moments before calamity struck and Malleus accidentally lit the dorm aflame from sheer joy

But... perhaps you shouldn't draw anyone else

Who knows? Maybe that person disappears for a while and just to be found in a deep coma (don't do it)

Whoa whoa whoa darling, let us not jump at him from nowhere with the fact that you like to draw him

After all, he is quite old and we don't know what his poor heart can still take

Now how about you tell him about your interest in art fir- ah... From your expression I take that it is too late for that

Indeed it is

One day you were just sitting there in Ramshackle, T-posing or whatever you do when you are not drawing

Remember that scene when Lilia was introduced to us? Well “How do you do fellow kids” over here just popped out of thin air

Now, that would have been nothing special if it wasn't for the stack of paper with his face on it on the table...

Lilia is staring, you are staring and the gargoyles are facepalming

Poor man has to take a seat all whilst you watch him with cold sweat running down your back

Suddenly Lilia isn't that “always energetic” guy but looks a lot more vulnerable

In Lilias mind however he is planning how to burn that one portrait of himself in the Draconia castle and replace it with your art

Or so he thought until he looked what else you drew

For goodness sake, someone call an ambulance! I think he is about to pass out!

If the situation wasn't already awkward enough for you (and euphoric for him) Lilia suddenly kneels down, saying something about being honored and him swearing to be forever loyal to you

Oh sweet summer child, how easily you told him “Oh thanks...” If only you knew what would follow...

You see, Lilia might have had seen a few too many heads being severed from their bodies but, oh well, all those students were a teeny tiny bit too close to you for his comfort

Suddenly there is an increase in missing students who get found in... uh... “not compatible with life” conditions

See? It's dangerous outside! Let him watch over you!

Says the person responsible for everything

You had shown your appreciation through your art, now it's his turn to show his

And what if a few students need to get hurt? (Yeah, “hurt”)

[everythingannoyingpjo]

i really don't like how Riordan wrote Octavian in HOO. during SON, it really seemed like he had something planned for him, some backstory or reasoning for his actions, but when he saw the way fans hated on him he decided to just make him a laughingstock. he's supposed to be this powerful guy, Hazel even says so, and he's supposed to be able to talk the senate into almost anything, and yet we don't see any of this past SON. and the hypocrisy for him! with Luke, people forgave him even though he tried to literally destroy Camp Halfblood, gr00med children, and obviously did not care if his own allies got killed. his main reasoning was "I don't think my dad cares about me so I'm just gonna injure and/or off dozens of children!". Octavian does try to destroy Camp Halfblood (which I'm not gonna say is okay, bc it isn't) but he has an actual reasoning! his home had been attacked and the people who did it just ran away with no explanation. yes, Leo had been possessed, but nobody even told Octavian that! so his rage was absolutely reasonable. and he actually cares about his allies. he waits to attack several days to a week just so the onagers would arrive, that way there would be no casualties on his side. plus, it seems like people just ignore the fact that he was manipulated by Gaea and was obviously having a mental breakdown near the end. it's constantly brought up in arguments for Luke like "he was manipulated by Kronos!!" but when a similar thing happens to Octavian, nobody mentions it or seemingly cares.

Note: OP has a negative opinion of Luke and of some fans differing reactions to Luke and Octavian as antagonists. However this is not a fandom complaint or character complaint blog. It is a book complaint blog. This ask was sent before that point was clarified. Please try to limit complaints and discussions to what occurs in the source material only.

Yes, I agree. I tried to make a list of your points below for clarity.

during SON, it really seemed like he had something planned for him, some backstory or reasoning for his actions

It did seem that way. There are a lot of implications behind Octavian and not much fact.

It is implied he was raised in New Rome. This means he was raised in a culture that promoted suspicion of/aversion towards greek demigod culture. (You can see this aversion in the way people/the laeres react to Percy when he arrives at CJ.)

It is implied he has prophetic powers.

It is implied that he is unwell/unstable. It's implied he is being manipulated by Gaea.

It is implied that public opinion of him is favorable.

It is implied he wants to go to war, specifically against greek demigods should they exist, though he should have no proof of their existence.

It is implied that he killed Gwen.

It is implied (in TOA) that he has a connection to the triumverate.

None of this is ever explained/explored/given more detail. Why does he believe Apollo supports him? What is the extent of Gaea's influence on him? Why does he angle for war before the attack on Rome even happens? What does he know and how?

he's supposed to be this powerful guy, Hazel even says so, and he's supposed to be able to talk the senate into almost anything, and yet we don't see any of this past SON.

Given every implication above, he should be powerful, or competent, or at least have the backing of competent people. We never see that. We never know why he makes the decisions he does and how he accomplishes his goals is almost never shown or explored.

Octavian does try to destroy Camp Halfblood (which I'm not gonna say is okay, bc it isn't) but he has an actual reasoning! his home had been attacked and the people who did it just ran away with no explanation.

Octavian was pretty clearly angling for war even before the attack, but certainly that cemented the legitimacy of such an action in his mind. Yet from SoN onwards Rick treats Octavian as a complete joke. Which honestly, I do think Octavian is funny, but I also think the story would have been better if I believed Octavian was a legitimate threat. And I don't because he basically disappears from the narrative at this point except to exist as some sort of omnipresent boogieman. None of his actions, motivations, or reasoning is ever explored. Any shadow of substance he had in the previous books is flattened. He becomes completely two dimensional.

It's hard to even be mad at people for not seeing the legitimacy in his attack when it's the result of Rick completely ignoring his character. After SoN he basically only exists to create a sense of urgency in completing the quest.

and he actually cares about his allies. he waits to attack several days to a week just so the onagers would arrive, that way there would be no casualties on his side.

I mean, this is largely supposition. The narrative heavily implies the wait for the onagers is because he wants to win with overwhelming force. But you are right that his compatriots safety could be the reason he wants to win with overwhelming force! But we don't know, because again, he was never fleshed out!

plus, it seems like people just ignore the fact that he was manipulated by Gaea and was obviously having a mental breakdown near the end.

It's pretty clear he was being manipulated. I think one thing it's easy to forget is that all these characters are teenagers. Octavian is a child. He has been put in a position of responsibility that should be reserved for an adult. It's hard to think Octavian is 100% evil or that he 100% deserves to die. EXCEPT that Rick has prevented us from being allowed to see him as a real person. He has made him feel like a complete caricature of a human being. And even then, it still disgusts me that Rick made his death a complete joke, something to laugh at.

If Rick was trying to say that "people who think this way are a joke" he should have shown us more of Octavian's thoughts. He should have given us the oppurtunity to see the point he was making by laughing at him.

Instead we have the implication that there was more, and no answers. He never even gave Octavian a last name. I do not like Octavian as a character, but everything about how he was written is sort of fucked up.

[annabel-lee-nevermore]

Hey. I'm sure all of you have seen Red's post, which they chose to call an apology (though I beg to differ in some parts), where I was called out amongst many others. This whole situation is a mess and though there have been many posts already, I just want to add my two cents, as someone who was directly named. Apologies for how late this is compared to the rest of the situation, not trying to stir it all up again, I’ve just been busy. (Please note that everything I say here is my own take/opinions and I am not directly speaking for anyone else, any issues you have with anything said here are with me alone.) 

First of all, Red promised this post would be about the Crimson situation, the long prologue with the explanations of the "cliques" is completely unrelated and just an attempt to shift blame onto other groups for the situation blowing up as it did. This is especially horrible because of the fact that many of the people named are MINORS, who Red has constantly claimed to prioritize protecting, especially in the situation with Crimson exposing minors to NSFW. I'm not going to harp too much on the Crimson situation as I wasn't involved (or capable of being involved after my ban), though everything I have seen from Red has been a shitshow of mishandling, which they addressed, and I will give them credit for admitting they fucked up with it, and am VERY glad to see them step back from moderating, as I feel they were under far too much stress by both being highly active in the server as a mod and also trying to write a good story, and hope a larger variety of mods does the server good. I was there when the server hit 1k members, and knowing that the mod team didn’t grow until now (when last I heard it was around 6k?) feels like it would have driven anyone trying to moderate it insane. 

However, I am here to give my side of the story, which goes back to the drama with the confession blog "@/esoterichistoria", in which they were sent an anon ask which [paraphrased] asked why the account existed and what they got out of it, in a sense that implied they didn't believe the account should exist. This ask was not answered publicly and was screenshotted and posted in the hideout, one of the NON PATREON channels in the discord. Red then went on to reveal themselves as the person behind this anon ask which led to other people sending harassment to the account. I was firmly on the side of supporting EH, and wound up creating a post of my own  calling out the hypocrisy and "word of god" reliance on lore snippets sent by Red and Flynn in the discord, which when sent in the free channels would eventually disperse into the tumblr fandom. Unless I mistakenly shared a minor fact that was patreon exclusive (which would have only been shared to me by someone who was affected asking if they were right to be concerned about it) I did not intentionally state any patreon only information in any of my comments within and under that post. 

That post for me, was what happened when the straw broke the camel's back. I had seen several instances of fan to fan hostility (such as telling people off for using the tumblr "#nevermore webtoon" tag for confession blog related posts, but only for the original blog and not the second one that popped up during this drama). I was fed up with watching a fandom I truly loved fall apart, and felt that speaking up about it would be the only way to see any change within this issue. However, I will admit the post was written in a stress induced craze as I was at the end of finals and preparing to move at the same time, which definitely greatly impacted my capacity to truly think through why I should make that post in the first place, but I felt the only way to get the drama out of my head was to send it out into the void of tumblr, and then, through the next day when I had a few spare moments I responded to a few people asking clarifying questions with less than stellar tact. 

It was quite shocking for me to find out, just a day or so later (forgive me I am not the greatest with dates or timelines) that the Nevermore discord was gone from my server list, which I mainly noticed because I often use the emotes from that server in casual conversations with friends, and found my favorited emotes completely lacking of them. I had no message of why I had been banned, and shrugged it off as I hadn't been active in the discord community in ages, as I was busy with other things. 

A few hours later, Percy, who Red had reached out to directly (but none of the other members of our "clique" as Red puts it heard a peep) shared a truly baffling DM that consisted of refusing to explain and extrapolating reasons behind actions that did not exist to justify the ban. We laughed it off and moved on, as though we enjoyed the fandom and comic itself, losing access to the discord was no loss as of our lack of usage of it in the first place. 

I was in no way Stalking, nor were any of my friends. We had been members of a fandom who loved the comic and fandom, and had come to a point where our unpopular fandom opinions led us to feel a bit on the outside of the main popular opinion, and we were also just naturally shifting to different interests. 

This, alongside the fallout of having expressed opinions on Montresor and the specific ways that his relationship with Ada progressed. I DON'T see people who ship Montrada as supporting a "SA Fetish Ship", I just personally wasn't a fan of it and alongside my friends who shared the same opinion, was sick of being told that we were blatantly WRONG for having a differing opinion, and chose to distance ourselves because of the level of vitriol we had experienced, and some made a statement saying we didn't wish to associate with people who enjoyed the ship, which is a perfectly normal way to interact with fandom. There are definitely perfectly valid ways to interact with the ship, and even explore it in interesting ways, it is just ways that I personally am not interested in engaging with. 

(And just to point out the elephant in the room, yes I have a fic that focuses on Montrada, both because I saw a part of my former self in Ada and someone who hurt me in Montresor, and this fic was planned out long before Montrada was hinting at becoming canon in the comic. Though this fic is written in an explicit manner, it was on a site that allows that and was tagged correctly for those who wish to avoid it.) 

I know I'm trying to prove myself to people who have made up their minds on if they believe Red's statement, and I know for those who have their minds made up, nothing I can say will change that unless they are willing to, and I can't force that. I personally do not agree with many opinions Red holds, and find the act of plastering the usernames of people, including minors, that they dislike on a public tumblr post knowing they have a loyal fanbase who may choose to take it upon themselves to harass people out of a sense of vigilante justice, frankly abhorrent and irresponsible. Though I would like to believe that the Nevermore fandom is better than stooping to harassment, I know it is naive to believe in any fandom that this is the case, every fandom will have a few bad apples, even if the fandom at large is kind and passionate and supportive of fellow fans. (note: as of writing at least one person I've been in contact with have received direct harassment) 

As someone who has a tendency to come across as rude and bitchy when in a passionate argument/debate with someone, especially when an emotional connection to the subject is involved on my end, I know I may have been combative to an excessive degree and given myself a bad name. For anyone who has felt hurt in an argument with me, I do apologize, as sometimes I don't know the harshness of my words. I do quite enjoy a good argument, and when things get heated I do find myself being quite harsh, something many people do, especially when they have had a history of being the only one on their side of an opinion.  

Despite the drama, I do still love the comic, through a more analytical lens and with caveats of my own personal opinions perhaps, but I do truly love the characters, the world, and am curious to know what comes next in the story when it returns from hiatus. Though I don't believe I will ever have a positive view of Red interpersonally, I want them and Flynn to be able to continue the comic for as long as they feel they need to tell a complete story. I probably will continue to write fic and engage with the fandom, as in my opinion, Fandom is for the Fans, not the Creators, and I truly do love sharing my writing with the Fandom, and I have many fic ideas that I want to have a chance to bring to fruition. 

For those who don't wish to dig in deep on the older drama with the Montrada situation or my general drama hot takes, you can hop off here, and even if this didn't change anything for you I appreciate you taking the chance on hearing me out, as I am quite wordy and I know this post is already rather long. However, since Red’s post brought up these issues, I feel I should at least address them.

First off, on the accusation of stalking, I do feel Red may be pointing a finger and forgetting that three point back at them, as though I do understand wanting to have a grasp on who someone is when you feel wronged by them, going out of your way to construct a narrative of who's friends with who, and what they do in their free time, alongside congregating information about them to share publicly when even in the best case of you being correct their crimes were at MOST having an insular group chat and occasionally getting in arguments about unpopular fandom opinions or standing opposite your side in drama. 

By every metric, while sharing screenshots can be seen as in bad taste, doing so with a small group of friends in a private group chat is not the end of the world. The phrase "keep it in the group chat" exists for a reason, people often share with their friends things they may not say publicly, and that is perfectly okay provided it's not planning some sort of direct attack on someone. People going "ugh I don't agree with xyz and wish they'd see reason" to friends is not stalking, it's a bit of gossip between friends, and when it comes from something that began as a shared interest that brought the group together, there's no harm in it. However, congregating identifying information and sharing it publicly DOES have harm in it, because no matter how many times you tell your audience not to harass people, opening the doors for it makes it more likely to happen regardless.

Secondly, calling the post an apology was a half truth. Yes, the final paragraphs WERE an apology, but based on the situation and what was truly going on, the explanations of the Cliques was unnecessary and distracted greatly from the actual apology present. Especially as the context of “Clique 2” does NOTHING to add to the story of the situation with Crimson and why an apology is necessary. The situation was blown greatly out of proportion by adding on more context than the situation required, and is definitely the reason the controversy has grown so large. Not only was diverting to the explanations of the Cliques cluttering the otherwise potentially strong apology, it both works to paint Red as the victim to garner sympathy from loyal fans, and gives a target to go after for why the situation has grown so horrible, when a concise apology that left that all out would have cleared the air on the Crimson situation and not led to a large group of people who were unjustly called out and have their information blasted for anyone to see and opening them to excessive harassment. 

Finally, Speaking to Red directly, If you'll allow me to speak at you a bit personally for a moment, the way you framed things in your post regarding "Clique 2" to me in some regards comes across as a misinterpretation of criticism of the comic and its characters as a criticism of you. As a writer I understand how your work often feels like an extension of you, and criticism often feels personal, but to take a small group of people who share a similar criticism and extrapolate it to mean they're spreading vitriol about you is a bit extreme. 

(And in screenshots regarding the Prospero aromanticism issue that have been posted to tumblr, this seems to be a recurring pattern of seeing anyone who has concerns about how a certain aspect is being normalized within the fandom with encouragement from the creators, which regardless of intent comes across as endorsement, as an attack and trying to make an issue out of something that isn’t really that deep.) 

Anyways, the main situation regarding the Montresor and Ada ship happened over a year ago and I have no way to access or look back on what was said having been banned from the discord, there may be discrepancies in intent and execution so take all of this with a grain of salt if you'd like, but I never meant to say that you as the author were glorifying SA by having Montresor and Ada to exist as a ship. It was a mixture frustration with how Ada's characterization (as interpreted by what existed in the comic) did a 180 and how the relationship between her and Monty was framed and the fandom's manner of acting as if saying that it personally made someone uncomfortable they were just a hater trying to stir drama. The fandom's usage of the phrase “fun toxic” and overromanticizing when Monty had been consistently characterized as misogynistic (not a bad thing) and Ada's prior characterization didn't line up with the “mutually toxic” idea that was being spread. I'd be a hypocrite if I was saying that every ship had to be morally pure, I've written some pretty morally bankrupt relationships in my own original works. I just found that the way the fandom acted around Montrada at the time was really uncomfortable to be around as an SA survivor simply because of the way people were changing their opinions of the barking scene, which to me with just the context of the scene itself was not at all something Ada did consensually (or only did under coercion) and is a form of humiliation which is sexual harassment. 

It was never a moral righteousness witch hunt or anything, more just some fans pointing out how the portrayal of it could come off to people who was a survivor of someone who acted like Monty and that the energy in the fandom around it was uncomfortable and didn't actually leave room for nuance on the opinions of Montrada. I have always been a proponent of letting people ship what they want to, even if it’s personally not what I enjoy in the fandom. Perhaps the way it was portrayed on my end at the time didn’t come off the way it was intended, but there is a massive difference in my opinion between thinking anyone who enjoys a particular ship is evil and being personally uncomfortable with a ship and not wanting to engage with it within fandom, even with it being canon. And the preference for Morella and Ada was never upholding a "morally pure" ship as "better" than Montrada, it was simply preference from people who had already been shipping Morellada for a long time and didn't choose to abandon ship over Montrada becoming canon, only finding new reasons to continue holding that opinion. 

All in all. I’ll miss when the good times of the fandom were around, and definitely will stick around for season 2. I wish it hadn’t all turned out this way, as I’ve made great memories and friends because of this comic and community. To anyone who still has questions or something to say to me, my ask box and dms here have always been open. And hey, if Red or Flynn have anything to say to me, feel free to reach out. I’m open to a civil conversation if that's what’s desired. 

~~ Rose, of the “dark stalker Clique”

[utilitycaster]

like actually it's wild to me as someone who mostly exists on the fringes of the D20 fandom, since CR is by far my main one, that a lot of the really popular voices there are popular fanartists who low-key hate like 99% of what D20 is and tend to fixate on like, ships between barely-seen side characters. Like okay, so you don't like D&D as a system and think it's inherently imperialist and violent; you don't like that they no longer do hour-long Adventuring Parties (which started when they were in full lockdown and quickly ended once the industry was back on fairly regular footing); you don't like that they joke around in the talkback show even though that's true of every AP talkback show and I listen to at least four of them; you don't like the D20 formula of ending with a big combat at the end; and you don't like that characters weren't redeemed because you feel as though the narrative didn't give them time to be redeemed and this season should have been longer despite it being standard length for an Intrepid Heroes season and "the narrative" is shaped by Brennan Lee Mulligan, DM, as well as the cast's choices.

Like, real talk, I watch/listen to a lot of actual play and at least four talkback shows (for CR, NADDPod, WBN, and sometimes D20) and when fans get mad that the talkback has too much joking around it's an almost flawless litmus test that person hates the show but their blorbo is on it or their fandom identity rests on it or some other sunk cost fallacy. And if they start talking about the story as if it is not driven by the DM and the cast, you know they're really mad about the DM-ing and the cast choices but are too cowardly to say "Hey, I disliked what Brennan did here." And if you add it to the fact that D20's fandom in particular has a real problem with "liking the right stories is activism :)" and this story doesn't spell out Capitalism is the BBEG (thought it does, hilariously, take some very good shots at Evangelical Christianity and the hypocrisy of the religious right) you get this. I really think a lot of these people don't like D20 much; they like some platonic ideal of D20 mixed in with no small dose of their own personal desires and it's like, if you want a more than 20 episode series that's low combat...why are you going to D20.

[twopoppies]

I don't want to offend you, I say this respectfully—but it baffles me how you so strongly justify Harry's every move but criticize or mock Louis'. That's also fandom hypocrisy. It is one thing to have a favorite, and another to not have any type of objectivity.

I don't think I've ever mocked Louis. I rarely criticize him, but I have said I have had a very hard time with his more recently adopted persona and his doubling down on babygate over the last couple of years. I'd like to know where you find me mocking him or even criticizing Louis' every move. And I mean that genuinely.

I'm very aware that I have difficulty being objective about Harry, but I disagree that I have none. And I think the reason I have a hard time is that I feel like so few people (outside of his nasty fans who just say he's better than everyone else) ever speak up in defense of him while masses of people pick apart everything he does. Whereas, from my perspective, it's Louis whose fans think he does no wrong. He's forgiven for everything, which is fine if that's how you feel. But then don't act as though Harry doesn't also deserve some leeway.

I love Louis, and I think he's worked super hard to achieve everything he has. However, I have issues with some of the things he's done. I'm very upfront about it. I don't have as many problems with Harry because I see him differently than you do. I'm sorry you're so baffled. But I have a feeling you don't actually spend a lot of time on my blog, nor have you ever talked to me personally about any of this. But for some reason, some of you equate not fawning over someone constantly with hating them. Black and white isn't the best way to approach anything.

[gentlebeardsbarngrill]

06/06-07/2024 Daily OFMD Recap

TLDR; Rhys Darby; Taika Waititi; Samba Schutte; Guz Khan; Vico Ortiz; Gerard Butler; SaveOFMDCrew #NeverLeft; AdoptOurCrew #SpeakUpMax; Voting: Tell Tale Awards; Voting; British Podcast Awards; Articles; FYC Emmy Nominations; In Person Meeting: Midwest Retreat for Wayward Pirates; Vianton Week; Jeopardy; Fan Spotlight; LoveNotes; Daily Darby/Tonight's Taika;

== Rhys Darby ==

Rhys is out at To 29 and Beyond!

Source: Outpost 29 Palms Instagram

== Taika Waititi ==

Just a Taika, wearing a Taika (the drink company) Hat. Not gonna lie, I kinda want one now that we are all Taika.

Source: Taika (the company) Instagram

And then there was the BTS for Rita's new music video. You can see the video here:

Some screen grabs from it:

== Guz Khan ==

Guz was out doing a live podcast with Adan Buxton tonight!

Source: Guz Khan's Instagram

== Vico Ortiz ==

Vico got a hair cut and wanted to share with us the before and afters <3

Source: Vico's Instagram

== Samba Schutte ==

So Samba did some hand modeling! But was a bit surprised it was for a leprosy commercial. Very good cause though <3 Thanks Samba

Source: Samba Schutte's Instagram

And Samba sending some love to Soprano's Deli out in LA!

Source: Samba's Instagram

== Damien Gerard ==

Our Father Teach sending more baby cat pics.

Source: Damien Gerard's Instagram

== SOFMD Crew #NeverLeft Video ==

Our crewmates over at @saveofmdcrewmates put together an informational video about the #NeverLeft campaign going on! It highlights the hypocrisy of Max and corporate pride. Please give it a watch! To learn more, visit their tumblr.

Source: SaveOFMD Crew Youtube

== AdoptOurCrew - Speak Up Max ==

Our crewmates over at @adoptourcrew are sticking it to Max! Their new hashtag is #SpeakUpMax-- Please visit their Tumblr to learn more and learn facts about how Max has been reducing "the amount of diverse and inclusive media and entertainment content available it [their] customers." SpeakUpMax /SpeakUpMax Facts

Source: AdoptOurCrew's Tumblr

== Voting Reminders ==

= Tell Tale TV Awards =

Reminder! The second round of voting for the Tell-Tale TV Awards is open until June 9, 9pm EST! Please be sure to get your votes in every day! Vote here.

Source: @saveofmdcrewmates Tumblr

= British Podcast Awards =

Hey! More voting opportunities for our dear captain Rhys Darby! If you feel inclined, we'd love it if you'd vote for The Cryptid Factor on the British Podcast Awards to help out Rhys, Dan, and Buttons!

Source: @ ShellOFMD on Twitter

= More Under the Cut: Long Post is Long =

== Articles ==

The first article tonight has an amazing quote, I highly recommend reading it "Either way, it won't make up for David Zaslav not being hugged enough as a child".

== FYC Emmy Considerations ==

Wondering if your efforts are being noticed? Well so far I've seen Samba, and Con both sharing the Emmy4 graphics everyone's been sharing! Great job everyone! Our friends over at Our Flag Means Fanfiction have this handy calendar on how to keep pushing! Thank you so much crew for continuing to support our cast!

Source: Our Flag Means Death Instagram

== In Person Meet Ups ==

= Midwest Retreat for Wayward Pirates! =

Are you in the Midwest area of the US? Are you a fan of OFMD? Well good news! August 8th-11th at Camp Dewan in Burlington, WI will be hosting a Gay Pirate Summer Camp! Wanna learn more? Visit their website!

Source: @ lyndzi's Twitter / @lcwebsxoxo's Twitter

== Vianton Week ==

Hey! Did you know it was Vianton week from June 6th - June 13th? Sure it's not OFMD but as we all know it's a sister-fandom to OFMD so it's getting a highlight! Graphic and info provided by @ viantonweek on Twitter. PS: Happy belated Unholy Masquerade! (06/06)

Source: ViantonWeek Twitter

== Jeopardy ==

Hey! I bet we could answer this one! Thank you @ Stedecoded_ on twitter for the screencap! They were also kind enough to include the clip here: https://x.com/stedecoded_/status/1799249795816829319

Source: @ stedecoded_

== Fan Spotlight ==

= Cast Cards=

More cast cards from @melvisik! The first, Jono Capel-Baker was the unfortunate groom who's wedding was interrupted by "The Devil and the Kids". Tonight's cast card is Amber Templemore one of the many directors on Our Flag Means Death! <3

Source: @melvisik's Twitter

== OFMPride Colouring Pages! ==

More Colouring pages by the very kind @patchworkpiratebear being shared by @adoptourcrew!

Source: AdoptOurCrew Tumblr

== Love Notes ==

Happy Frenchie Friday Lovelies! It's finally here! The weekend is here, and if you have the time off, please use it to have some fun and get some rest-- and if you don't, I'm sending so many hugs your way to get through the weekend work week. One of the things that I love so much about this community is seeing so many of you showing yourselves bit by bit over the past many months. Some of you are brand new to the fandom, and some of you have been here for so much longer than many of us have. No matter when you started though, I've seen folks who we don't hear often start to speak up more. I see more and more people who stopped doing gifs/art/fics, or didn't do gifs/art/fics before suddenly sharing their stuff with the community. It's so wonderful to see you bloom in and out of season, did you know that? Some of you don't feel comfortable putting yourself out there that much, but I see you like or reblog on various peoples blogs, or leave a comment here or there. Some of you have started really putting yourself out there bit by bit, in tags, in comments, posting meta, gifs, or fics, or artwork, or sometimes just sending lovely letters through @ofmdlovelyletters (which btw I love yall who run that so much you're such a stellar group and you drive kindness in this fandom to new heights). Some of you are unapologetically loud and yourselves and I love that too. I love every beautiful level of the fans we have here coming in and out and participating and making this fandom such a wonderful place to be in. Every day I continue to marvel at the kindness, and supportiveness, and creativity of this crew... of all the wonderful things your minds come up with, and all the goodness you put into this world. You all have really made my life so much better, and I can't thank you enough for that. I feel richer in mind and spirit because of you all and I'm so happy to get to share this time with you. Thank you to every one of you who makes each day worth coming back for, even if we've never spoken, I hope you know you make all the difference. Love you crew, I hope you have the best of weekends and things are looking up, and if they're not, that they do soon.

== Daily Darby / Tonight's Taika ==

Tonight's gifs are themed only in that I too want to look a bit more closely at Rhys' outfit. Rhys gif by the glorious @ratchet and Taika Gif by the absolutely amazing @meluli!

Taika Gif Source: @meluli

[funhouse-mirror-barbie]

What it should mean to support ALL survivors—Fandom discourse and the depiction of sexual assault in media.

So. Okay.

Below is a video that, in my opinion, is a very well thought out and respectful critique of the writing decisions surrounding Angel Dust’s character and purpose in Hazbin’s narrative.

The author of the video does a great job clearly stating their thoughts and opinions, and put a lot of effort into explaining their reasoning in a concise and easy to understand way.

I really recommend giving it a watch—(TW for discussions of rape, sexual assault and abuse. )

However, one of the most important things about this video though, is that the author, Limus, takes the time to specify that the video is only her opinion, and that she does not want to invalidate the feelings of other people or survivors who like or feel represented by Angel Dust. (More below)

In their conclusion, Limus states, “…If you enjoyed “Hazbin Hotel” and Angel Dust as a character, that’s fine. I don’t want you to walk away from this thinking your opinion is less than mine. People have their own reasons for liking media, and the discourse surrounding this show and the harassment that people receive just for liking it is unacceptable. You can have your reasons for disliking a show, but people can also have their reasons for liking it as well. Everything I have said in this video is in relation to my own personal life…”

I was REALLY glad and really relieved that Limus took the time to specify this, because one of my biggest grievances with the discourse regarding Hazbin’s depictions of sexual abuse, assault and rape, is that I see a LOT of people, both critics and fans, disregarding the experiences and feelings of survivors with opinions opposite to theirs.

Specifically, I saw a LOT of people talking about the portrayal of sexual abuse in Hazbin, and media in general, as if it was something that could be judged as being OBJECTIVELY “good” or “bad”.

And then proceeding to argue with people over their opinions and feelings as if they were in some sort of debate and the other person’s beliefs could be disproven.

This was really frustrating to me, because I’m hyper-aware of how media is extremely subjective especially when it comes to serious topics like sexual assault, violence, substance addiction, abuse, etc. etc.

So, I’m going to talk, in detail, about what I see as a lot of hypocrisy within fandom and critical spaces.

This really started in January of this year (2024) when a trailer (or maybe a leak? Sorry I can’t remember) for Hazbin came out, and a scene from Poison was shown.

There were a lot of people who were really concerned with the way Angel Dust’s abuse was shown in the preview, a good amount of them survivors of sexual abuse themselves, and from there the discourse got pretty out of hand.

Worst of all though, people, both fans and critics, allegedly started demanding “proof” of survivor’s assault from those they disagreed with.

This was very gross behavior, and I don’t care what your opinion on Hazbin Hotel is, NO ONE should have done that. It’s not only incredibly invalidating, but also potentially re-traumatizing.

Seriously. I hope ANYONE who engaged in this behavior, REGARDLESS of if they love Hazbin and think it’s the best thing in the world or if they hate it and think it’s the worst piece of media ever, were able to take a step back and realize how hurtful and inappropriate their actions were. And hopefully grow from that.

What disappointed me the most though was seeing Hazbin’s creator’s reaction to all of this. It was, in my opinion, very hypocritical and set the stage for the sort of harassment that is continuing in the fandom today.

A Disclaimer—this is going to be one of the ONLY TIMES I talk directly about the creator of Hazbin Hotel, Vivienne “Vivziepop” Medrano. I’m doing so because she was engaging directly and openly with this discourse when it was happening, and I think it’s important to talk about her actions and reactions because it provides some context for the background in regards to the ongoing conversations surrounding Hazbin’s SA depictions.

I generally do not like publicly talking about or making judgements on creators as people based on the art they create, because while a creator’s art is almost always influenced by their personality and experiences, it’s not a good way to judge someone’s ENTIRE character. All people are multi-faceted, and the art or media we create usually reflects only part of someone. Additionally, people use art, fiction, and media to explore all kinds of things, including things they would never do or want in real life, and that’s valid and normal. Obviously.

But when a creator publicly expresses an opinion in regards to ongoing discourse, of course people are allowed to discuss it and have their own opinions. Especially when that creator has a lot of fans who look to them as a role-model. Not saying that Vivziepop is responsible for actions of her fans, but when you are a public figure like she is, I do think it’s important to be as mindful as you can about your influence.

With all of that said. Yeah. I was. Incredibly disappointed by Vivziepop’s reaction to this. Because, I actually do agree with a lot of the things she was saying about supporting survivors—

I 100% agree with this. Everyone processes trauma differently, and that should be respected. We should not judge survivors for how they cope or process their trauma.

If this statement was made in response to the all judgement and struggles that survivors generally have to deal with, I would not have any issue with it whatsoever.

But. It wasn’t. Vivziepop said this because people were criticizing Hazbin Hotel—specifically there were survivors who were upset and triggered by scenes from the musical sequence “Poison” that leaked prior to Hazbin’s official release.

Now, obviously, I can’t know her true intent or beliefs. But her bringing all of this up after she had received criticism from survivors about her show leads me to believe that she doesn’t really care about supporting all survivors. Especially since after she said this, she proceeded to dismiss the concerns that several survivors brought to her because “the show hadn’t come out yet”.

To me, this is just hypocrisy.

Now, to be fair. Im also an artist. I understand feeling like your art or story is your baby, and feeling really protective of it. In some ways I was conflicted when all of this was happening back in January, because I get the frustration and hurt that comes with people not liking your art or not giving it a chance.

That can be very disheartening, and definitely feels unfair. I can empathize with Vivziepop in regard to that, because I don’t know how I would handle the amount of criticism her art gets. I’ve had my art criticized pretty harshly online, and it does really hurt. I really can’t imagine how emotionally taxing that is on such a large scale.

But with all of that said, at the end of the day, as creator, especially a creator making something for widespread international audiences, you have to learn how to be okay with the fact that your art, whether it’s music, visual arts, storytelling, or whatever, will not be universally loved. That’s pretty much impossible, and it’s also okay.

And while you obviously don’t have to listen to EVERY bit of criticism you receive, I do think it is vitally important to listen to criticism and concerns when they come from a whole group of people you are trying to represent.

This was Vivziepop’s response to survivors of sexual assault who asked to have their concerns about Angel Dust and the portrayal of his assault also taken seriously:

In my opinion, these replies are all really dismissive. I agree with everything Vivziepop said about survivors who felt represented being spoken over was also wrong. But these are survivors being open about how Vivziepop’s show has already affected them negatively, and the fear that their reactions to and opinions on the show will be, or in some cases—have already been, invalidated and called into question by the Hazbin fandom.

Vivzie’s response to them is that the show hasn’t come out yet, so they are getting upset “preemptively”. It really comes across like their concerns did not matter to Vivziepop, and like it didn’t matter to her that they had already been triggered or felt as if the handling of the scene was fetishistic based on what came out.

She states that her fans are “speaking out on their own experiences and reminding that the scene isn’t out yet”. I’m not denying that some fans do feel represented, but to me, it doesn’t, and didn’t matter if the show hadn’t come out yet.

The full episode can’t magically “take back” the fact that a lot of survivors saw this small clip on its own and it was enough to affect them. And that is just as valid of an experience as people who felt represented.

And listen. No group of people is a monolith and that includes survivors. People WILL have many differing opinions about the way sensitive topics are portrayed, especially when it’s as traumatic as sexual assault and abuse.

I am not saying Vivziepop should have somehow magically concocted a show that handles sexual assault objectively perfectly and pleases every survivor ever. That’s impossible, and I would NEVER ask or expect ANYONE to be able to do that.

But, it’s very clear to me in the interactions above that the people who were upset only wanted their opinions and experiences to be heard and respected as well, and they were essentially told that their feelings didn’t matter.

And to me, Vivziepop’s reaction to all of this was really giving Sia circa 2020:

I really think that, a lot of this could have been mitigated if someone from the Hazbin team, not even necessarily Vivziepop, had just acknowledged, “hey, you’re absolutely in your right to not like the scene and those feelings are valid”.

But there is a very strange sort of hypocrisy that is almost like. Tinted with virtue signaling*??? About listening to all survivors voices, while simultaneously dismissing the voices of survivors that are saying they have already been hurt.

THAT is what bothers me the most. It really seems like the only survivors that a lot of people involved in this discourse, including Vivziepop, were willing to listen to or validate were the ones that already agreed with them.

If you are going to support survivors you DO have to ACTUALLY SUPPORT ALL survivors. Even if they disagree with you.

If you’re still with me, I really really appreciate it. I felt I had to go over all of this to add context, because the concerns those survivors talked about over 10 months ago, foreshadowed the EXACT situation that some people in the Hazbin fandom have now put Limus in.

All because, after the episode came out, they expressed their honest opinions on the subject matter and the way Angel Dust was written in a way fans disagreed with.

I find it really disturbing that, the whole point of Vivziepop’s dismissal was that the show hadn’t come out, and that she said she would “respect” if people had concerns AFTER it came out. But I haven’t really seen any acknowledgment from her that survivors, who after seeing the whole scene, were still negatively affected.

The below is a tweet Vivziepop liked shortly after the episode came out in full.

I agree that any survivors who felt seen by Angel Dust and the show and were invalidated and had their experiences dismissed and questioned by others deserve apologies. But I can’t help but think about the fans who didn’t feel the same, who were hurt, and triggered by the depiction of SA before AND after the show released. I don’t want to read to much into likes, because people like shit for all sorts of reasons, but Vivziepop liking this tweet saying she deserves an apology too does rub me the wrong way, especially after she was told that survivors have ALREADY been hurt.

Don’t those people deserve apologies too? Or at the very least just an acknowledgment that their hurt and concern was valid?? It just comes off to me as a confirmation that Vivziepop doesn’t really want to listen to ALL survivors, just the ones that haven’t criticized her and praised her show.

To clarify—just as Limus did at the end of her video—I AM NOT SAYING THAT SA SURVIVORS WHO DIDNT LIKE THE SHOW’S HANDLING OF SA ARE THE “CORRECT” SURVIVORS AND THAT PEOPLE WHO FELT SEEN AND REPRESENTED BY ANGEL DUST AND THE SHOWS WRITING ARE “WRONG”.

The WHOLE POINT of me going over ALL of this is to take a look at the hypocrisy of many people both in the fandom and outside of it who SAY they care about ALL survivors feelings and experiences, but then call those experiences into question the MOMENT a survivor has an opinion different than their own.

And sadly, I personally believe the creator of Hazbin also contributed hugely to this hypocrisy.

When we look at what happened in January, it now feels weirdly prescient. People are treating Limus’ opinion as if she is personally attacking them, or saying that their experiences are invalid. She did not do that.

It also seems like a lot of people who like Angel Dust and feel he represents them are taking Limus’ critique of the character writing decisions made for Angel Dust, who is not a real person and does not exist, as personal attacks on their real lived experiences. She did not do that either. She was extremely clear that her opinions were in regards to the way Angel Dust was written as a character.

But because Limus critiqued Angel Dust, her experience with abuse has been called into question, just like the above survivors that were concerned about all of this way back in January. This is absolutely fucking unacceptable.

I am saying this to CRITICS AND FANS of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, and fuck it, honestly ALL fandoms—If you have engaged in this sort of behavior, you have got to stop. I think the love and passion you have for the art that is important to you is beautiful and wonderful. But NOTHING justifies treating other people this way. It does not matter how much you love a certain character or how much they comfort you or what solace you find in them. There is NO EXCUSE for bullying and harassing someone over this shit.

I am saying this fully aware that it may cause people to get mad at me and want to send me hate. And honestly that’s fine. I will deal with it if it comes. But I couldn’t sit here and watch so many people shit on someone for talking about their experiences and opinions again.

Please, if you find the tweets/threads I referenced in this post, DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM OR HARASS THE POSTERS. This whole long massive post was all about why we should NOT do that.

When these conversations happen, I often see people just. Putting words into other’s mouths like it’s an Olympic sport. If someone says they don’t like the way Angel is written, they are not saying your experiences are invalid. If someone says they love the way Angel is written, they are not saying you have to love him and feel represented by him too.

Please. Please try to empathize with each other. Or at the very least, maybe just take some time to sit with your feelings instead of harassing others. I’m using Hazbin as an example because it’s a fandom I’ve had experience with recently, but this really does apply to all fandoms.

As I final note—if you love Angel Dust and think he’s the best written character and feel really represented and seen by him, that’s wonderful and I’m really happy to hear that the show was cathartic or comforting for you. Genuinely.

And if you hated the way Angel Dust was written and the show triggered you, I am so sorry that happened. It is so painful to re-live trauma like that, and I hope any that pain you felt from being reminded of what happened eased quickly and gently.

Both of your experiences and opinions are completely valid, and you have every right to express your opinions to others. Your trauma is real, and however you process it and cope with it should not be judged by anyone.

I just ask that we all be more respectful, and try to be curious about other’s perspectives regarding this stuff.

Thank you again for bearing with me through all of this. I hope you have a great day or night.

*I really really HATE the term “virtue signaling” because in MOST cases, I only ever see it being used to dismiss minorities and allies concerns about injustices. But, given the circumstances of this situation, I do think it’s actually appropriate here, given that survivors where expressing their concerns to Vivziepop and she was justifying her dismissal of them by saying the show hadn’t come out yet, and then went on to say that all survivors mattered. I don’t know whatever word I should have used, other than it just being hypocritical. Again I hate that term, and wouldn’t be using it here if I didn’t really believe it was appropriate and accurate.

[litnerdwrites]

What are your thoughts on the weird Cassian and Mor relationship?

There's the obvious of, it's toxic as fuck. There's also the hypocrisy of it, since Mor's issue with Nesta seems to be that her behaviour hurts Feyre, even though Nesta's actions stem from a desire to self harm, while she has admitted that she does it to hurt Azriel. Whether Azriel acknowledges/accepts the rejection, or continues to pursue her despite it, remains to be seen, given that we don't really have his pov, aside from that one bonus chapter.

Mor also uses him protection, only when it suits her. She happily turned to him for help when Rhysand went behind her back to make a deal with Eris, not telling her that he'd be at the meeting. However, when Az tried to protect her from him during the HL meeting, she slept with Hellion to hurt him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Azriel, though that mostly has to do with his treatment of Nesta. However, Mor, who is supposed to be his family, and happily uses him for her protection and comfort when she sees fit, only to use his own brother to snub him regularly, even after that brother finds someone he wants to pursue himself.

She then goes to that person and acts like they're the devil incarnate for having the audacity to breath, despite her so called best friend (Feyre) telling them all to stay out of it.

As for Cassian, I don't personally think he minds the arrangement. His biggest insecurity is his status as a bastard born orphan. Yet, now, he has the sole attention of Mor, a beautiful women of high social status who's related to the highest level of authority in the NC. Not only that, but it was her line that once ruled, before it transferred to Rhysand's bloodline. Mor constantly chooses him over his brother. I believe it's in his bonus chapter, Wings and Ember, that he admits that his jealousy of Azriel, and whatever bond he and Mor seemed to form at the time, was a factor in why he chose to sleep with her.

It's mutually toxic, but only benefits Mor and Cassian. Azriel doesn't have much of a say in it, yet he's the one hurt by it. Until one of them (Mor or Cass) wake up and knock some sense into the other, it won't end.

[simplepotatofarmer]

This is just me but something I was a bit worried about for a while is that there might be some bitterness between the Dream fans and other people in the mcyt fandom. Like I get it, some of the people there were awful and did whole harassment campaigns. But…I don’t know sometimes I go to some blog and find a bitter post about a qsmp or some of the mcyt people and o get a bit worried that some might lash out against them. Like yeah they’re not perfect and I get why they’re angry. But sometimes I worried that some people might take it too far and end up doing the same as the antis. sorry if it dont makes sense but this is just me

I mean, you've got to understand that we went through over a year of not just false accusations (which people still spread despite being disproven and despite understanding how terrible false accusations are especially after recent events) but through absolutely awful harassment that hasn't stopped.

there's lies that are spread (dream had airhorns playing during the 'uieud' video?? which did not happen), people supporting not just assault but ableism, homophobia, and antisemitism solely because the 'other side' was dream, and people making posts in mcytblr spheres talking about how dteam fans should die.

and then as an ojibwe person who was watching the qsmp, it was awful and disappointing to see that all go down and to feel genuinely scared and unheard when voicing my feelings on it. and that's just one event, that's not counting being forced to leave discord servers or feeling unwelcome in them.

i don't know how to explain how bad it is. just recently a large mcyt blog made a post about chasing off dream fans:

if there's bitterness, trust me, we'd rather there not be! we'd love to just be able to exist but it's not possible half the time.

things are getting better but man. i lost friends for venting about being harassed because they were more focused on how i was venting.

none of us want this. every single person i know would love for it to go back to how it was.

and i get what you're saying. i do think people take it too far sometimes. i'm absolutely against that kind of thing. i do understand, though, how deeply hurt people are. and i think there's a level of hypocrisy that happens where it's okay to lash out at and make pretty awful jokes about dream and his fans and when one of his fans calls something out, it becomes 'petty fandom drama'. like getting my concerns about racism on a server i was actively watching (and still do for people like niki) dismissed as 'well you don't like the server because you're a dream fan so of course' sucked. or people making jokes about death threats, stalking, and SA threats being called out becomes drama, y'know?

basically, i don't know man. it sucks. i had to change my phone number. i had threats made against my kids and pets. and a lot of it was dismissed so i'm not surprised there's bitterness. people were deeply hurt. people are upset at some of the hypocrisy shown (it's okay for this cc to do xyz but things from years ago are still brought up re: dream).

which means, yeah, sometimes they do take it too far and i don't like it and i think it's become this very toxic cycle that's probably never gonna stop until people just. leave things alone, y'know?

and stop thinking there's an 'acceptable' target for harassment because there's not.

i know you get it, though, and i appreciate that. i really wish other people would be as understanding.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I have nothing against Alicent sleeping with Criston Cole. Even if it's revealed that she started sleeping with him while Viserys was still alive, I will still have nothing against it. She was in a loveless marriage with a man she did not choose so if she managed to find love somewhere else, good for her.

I do find her comments on Rhaenyra the previous season hypocritic, though ( and Cole's insults on Rhaenyra as well, but this post isn't about him). Girl, you shouldn't accuse a woman for having a relationship out of wedlock when you are doing the same thing! But I guess when I look Alicent as a character her hypocrisy makes sense, many conservatives are the same. They talk about virtues only they possess and that their opponents lack according to them, only to be revealed that they are as human as the rest of the world with the same weaknesses and that they do not possess the supposed "virtues" they preached about.

What I do find interesting is how many of Alicent's fans have fall for her hypocrisy. They try really hard to justify why Alicent's case isn't as Rhaenyra's instead of admitting that their fav is a hypocrite. In a show like Hotd which features rapists and child murderers being a hypocrite is far from being the worse offense. So let her be that way. She's more interesting as a person with flaws, instead of a mary sue who can't do no wrong as some of her stans trying to make her be.

[isdalinarhot]

on the state of kholin haterism on tumblr

this is gonna be a long one, so bear with me.

one thing i think that has changed in the tumblr fandom in the three years that ive been in it is that the culture in 2021 was ALSO at a largely anti-Kholin sentiment, but there were two key differences.

the first is that most people making critiques of such characters would use the tag #kholin critical, which was useful either if you were sensitive to criticism of one of the kholins for whatever reason AND if you wanted to read analysis of some of their faults by many different users under one tag.

the second is that said kholin critical criticisms were... less stupid? like a lot of it was talking about reddit fandom hypocrisy where dalinar was held up as righteous and badass and could do no wrong even though he had tons of personal and political faults that other characters (largely people who WERENT extremely powerful nobles) were demonized for. also a lot of stuff like "adolin is kaladins friend now but i dont think just categorizing it as simple enemies to besties is fair because adolin WAS being overtly racist to kaladin at the beginning there". a lot of discussion about how the Kholins treat darkeyes and characters of lower dahns where the bigotry there was being downplayed by fans in favor of the characters being painted both by fandom and in the universe of the books as Always Right All The Time. stuff like that.

that's not to say the whole kholin crit tag was all, like, stuff that isnt bullshit. people have been dunking on elhokar for being a whiny failking since the beginning of time. but the vibes were a lot different.

kholin critical kind of fell out of favor as a hashtag because most of us realized hey on a doylist level either the things we're criticizing the kholins for are purposeful character flaws that make for richer, more realistic, more engaging characters; or they're oversights from the moderate liberal Sanderson, in which case, why are we complaining about Dalinar doing this, when we should be complaining about Sanderson doing this. so this whole thing is stupid. and also by then the atmosphere on tumblr was way different, this was by and large the Moash Website and while people were haters about characters they did not put the hate in character tags so people largely avoided each others haterism. and there was peace for like a year and a half, i guess.

things are way different now. for context. i track the #dalinar kholin tag. so whenever my dash is dead im checking my tracked tags, and thus i see every original post about dalinar that someone decided to tag #dalinar kholin. and boy howdy, things have devolved. this used to be a chill experience for me, i'd see first time readers go OH MY GOD HE DID WHAT?????? during oathbringer and "[some philosophical shit dalinar said]" -brandon sanderson. follow for more inspiring book quotes" about three times a day, fanart once every couple weeks or so, stuff like that. but now a solid 75% of the posts in dalinars tag are like. hate. not literary criticism, but hate. sometimes about justified things, sometimes about unjustified things, but still, extremely negative.

in a bubble, that's fine. god knows ive been a hater on my blog before and ill be a hater on my blog again. and its not even like im opposed to reading well thought out criticism of my faves on any level because, like, dalinar is kind of a rat bastard! but like. listen. you don't put character hate in that character's tag. you don't do that. the people who are checking a character's tag are fans of that character and fandom is for fun. being a hater directly reaching out to the lovers for comment is rude as hell.

also a lot of the things people dislike about dalinar tie back to his neglectful fatherhood and his alcoholism which is, like, a thing i understand people would have strong negative feelings towards him for having because Neglectful Alcoholic Dad is like one of the top 10 kinds of abusive dads out there so lots of people have very visceral very personal experiences related to that. but when posting about this in any form whatsoever it feels like im having to go back to Treating Addicts Like Human Beings 101. like i feel like ive made a billion posts to the tune of "okay kids, you can do bad things while drunk and you are still responsible and you can also get drunk at inopportune times and you are still responsible, but the act of being addicted to alcohol does not make a character ontologically evil". and like thats. um. a personal thing but also oh my goodness.

i dont really have a conclusion to this. im just thinking goddamn its bleak out here right now.

[flower-boi16]

Let's Dissect Hate Comments on ArtecieTB's Standom video

For those who don't know, @arteicetb made a video about Viv's fandom. Specifically the toxic side of the fandom that shuns any of all criticism of both HH and HB. And, unsurprisingly, she got a few hate comments on that video and thought It would be to dissect and make fun of them.

NOTE: DO NOT ATTACK ANY OF THE PEOPLE I AM RESPONDING TO.

So these three comments are from the same person about the whole Alastor Voodoo controversy. The first one is the user trying to point out hypocrisy by saying that's bad to depict Voodoo as bad but criticizing Christianity is ok and saying that critics are hypocritical for that....

....even though Christianity itself as a religion has received criticism for MANY years due to it including things like homophobia, violence, corruption, bigotry, and a bunch of other not-great things about it. The reason why people don't like Voodoo being portrayed as bad is because it's a RACIST STEREOTYPE of it. Christianity is a religion where there are things about it to criticize, meanwhile, Voodoo doesn't have much wrong with it and is generally positive, and people are frustrated that a positive practice is always portrayed in a bad light.

The next comment is the user saying Alastor is mixed race and saying Articie should just "get over it"...I don't know how that's supposed to counter this argument lmao.

And the last comment is the user saying that there are bad Voodoo practices as if that debunks the fact that Voodoo being evil is a racist stereotype which is WHY people are criticizing this. There's also the fact that Arteice literally explained how making Alastor a bad Voodoo practitioner can work. Also, the user is just implying that Voodoo is evil with that comment? Like?

Now let's get into the next comment, which is another one involving the Alastor Voodoo stuff:

First, this user says that anybody who has a problem with Voodoo being depicted as evil are "idiots", completely disregarding people's actual reasons for why they have a problem with this due to it being a racist stereotype as I've already said. They then point out the "Hell good Heaven bad" thing as a counter-argument when, again, Christianity has been criticized for years for being a religion with many problems while Voodoo is an entirely innocent religion being unfairly demonized.

Now we have labeling Cartoonshi as bad faith even though he's himself is a FAN OF THE SHOW!

And this one is just assuming misogyny for some reason? What???? Also, you can bring up MANY male figures online to debunk this user's bullshit.

There are probably more comments like this but I'm only focusing on the deranged ones. Anyways, Viv stans are dumb, see ya.

[wildpeachfarm]

The funny thing is that George's situation compared to dreams is soooo similar, but people's reactions for george seemed to more intense despite the fact that we've been theough dreams stuff before? Like Amanda had photos and images, and her word. Caiti had her word, some messages, and her friends to back her up. They are both similar in that it's basically he said she said with very little solid evidence. What made George's situation so different that people dropped him immediately without even giving him a chance, despite the fact that they gave dream a little time to respond at the very least? I guess it's because it was an actual event we knew happened and was real with real people attending this party. Idk this is is so wierd and gross to me and just solidifies why I abandoned twitter in the first place. I have never seen a such cesspool full of hypocrisy and lacking in basic empathy and critical thinking skills in my life. And my critique is absolutely aimed at mature adults in the fandom who I once though were level headed with healthy takes. Guess I was wrong.

I think another thing that I have talked about with anons a few days ago is that Amanda wasn't a CC, she was a nobody. And unfortunately, that just shows that if she was a real grooming victim, she would not have been taken as seriously by dream's colleagues because no one knew her (even shown by dream saying many CCs reassured him privately that it was no big deal).

A very unfortunate pill to swallow as a victim of grooming myself tbh

But because caiti is a streamer and made a public spectacle, CCs /had/ to pay attention and make big, impulsive decisions in order to cover their own asses (and that trickled down to fan behavior as well i think).

Another unfortunate truth of the situation

[fincalinde]

you’ve mentioned a few times in your meta that you view nmj as being hypocritical, and i’m inclined to agree with you! would you share some specific quotes from the text that you feel especially support this reading of his character? 👀

It is one of my favourite words to apply to him, isn’t it! I think that’s because a) it’s true, and b) NMJ’s reputation for righteousness (and his belief in his own righteousness) grant an in-universe illusion of consistency that often bleeds through to external readings of him. So I press the point, because it’s fundamental to his character and I usually see it elided or reduced to all-bark-and-no-bite-grumpy-bear-with-a-heart-of-gold fanon NMJ.

And oh yes, there’s an absolute wealth of quotes supporting this. As always, I use the EXR fan translation because I’m old school.

Christ, this got long. Click for more.

It’s all relative, man

First we need to establish what NMJ’s principles supposedly are.

[Nie Huaisang’s] brother, Nie Mingjue, was extremely resolute when carrying out orders, quite renowned in the cultivation world. […] Nie Mingjue had always taught his younger brother with extreme harshness, particularly caring for his studies. (Chapter 13)

[…] he took over the Nie Sect before he even reached twenty, doing everything in a direct, forceful fashion. (Chapter 21)

When he lived, Nie Mingjue was often exasperated by the fact that his brother didn’t meet expectations, so he disciplined him strictly. (Chapter 21)

In spite of Nie Mingjue being a junior to Jin Guangshan, he conducted himself in a strict manner and refused to tolerate Xue Yang no matter what. (Chapter 30)

Without any hesitation, Nie Mingjue scolded, “Drinking the water he brought you while speaking such spiteful words! Did you join my forces not to kill the Wen-dogs but to make idle talk?!” (Chapter 48)

“A proper man should carry himself with proud righteousness. There’s no need to care for the talk of those idlers.” (Chapter 48)

As we can see, NMJ is all about righteousness, but we don’t get too many details confirming what that righteousness entails. We’re expected to make assumptions based on context: that his values are in line with the ideal values of his society, and that he’s living his life according to those principles (and enforcing said principles on others).

This is worth keeping in mind. We know NMJ is ‘righteous’. We know, in a general sense, what societal standards for morality are in this setting and we see the tension between society’s theoretical standards, its actual standards, and the moral frameworks of characters such as WWX and LXC. And there’s tension between those standards and NMJ’s moral framework, too. But though WWX attempts (and fails) to opt out and LXC attempts (and fails) to find a better way through open conversation and consideration of context, their failures are not due to hypocrisy but instead larger forces at play. In other words, they go up against society and society wins.

NMJ has a problem with society too, but for him the problem is not with its rules and assumptions—it’s with the individuals who make it up. He has no problem with the system. To NMJ, the system is a good thing. If only the people in it would rigidly conform to the rules, everything would be fine. And an outlook like that can only ever lead to hypocrisy, not just because human beings and their actions don’t fit into rigid categories, but because by not attempting to navigate the system (LXC, JGY, JC) or even attempting to opt out (WWX, LWJ, XY), NMJ positions himself above society, as a moral arbiter.

This is why he feels entitled to upbraid JGS, who is a generation above him. It’s why he feels entitled to harass and attempt to murder JGY for not being loyal to NMJ over and above his filial duty to his father. These actions are after he’s reached the point of no return with the sabre spirit, yes, but they didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s just the nadir of a path he’s been on presumably his entire life.

All the information is on the task

NMJ is very good at bending his supposedly rigid principles when it’s convenient for him, while not offering any grace or understanding to others who do the same. And ‘others’, let’s be real, usually equates to JGY. The horror vortex of NMJ’s obsession with controlling JGY really cannot be escaped.

Let’s start with the biggie. JGY is naturally the one who calls NMJ out, because he’s the only one who can see the emperor has no clothes, and by clothes I mean leg to stand on.

“But, Brother, I have always wanted to ask you something—the lives under your hands are in any regard more than those under mine, so why is it that I only killed a few cultivators out of desperation and you keep on bringing it up, even until now?” (Chapter 48)

“Are you saying that all of the people you killed deserved their deaths? […] Then, may I ask, just how do you decide if someone deserves death? Are your standards absolutely correct? If I kill one but save hundreds, would the good outweigh the bad, or would I still deserve death? To do great things, sacrifices must happen.” (Chapter 48)

Chifeng-zun, my man, he has nailed you. The point is not to start drawing equivalences in quite the way JGY is doing—I would certainly argue that if you’re killing undeserving people for the greater good you’d better have one hell of a greater good to be aiming for, even in the crapsack world of MDZS. JGY’s argument is partly a numbers game, but I want to set that aside, because it’s a distraction from his core point, to which numbers are irrelevant: can NMJ truly justify every single murder he has ever committed? Because if he can’t, he’s condemned by his own supposed standards. Note JGY’s use of the word ‘absolute’. NMJ is a moral absolutist! Is he absolutely sure? And if he is sure, does it matter that he’s sure? Why is his certainty more important than anyone else’s?

NMJ never once grapples with these questions. If he did, he might be able to pull the teeth of his own hypocrisy by acknowledging it and engaging with it. But of course he’s not capable of that, certainly not by the time of this scene.

And speaking of NMJ’s hypocrisy re: who does and doesn’t deserve to die…

“Very well! I’ll kill myself after I kill you!” (Chapter 49)

But Roquen, you cry! NMJ says such an utterly mad thing because he’s battered and beaten and not thinking clearly, not to mention past the point of no return with the sabre spirit as he’s been cultivating with resentful energy intensely throughout the war! That’s why he walks it back after LXC intervenes!

To which I say: it is almost as though context matters!

And yes, I’m aware of the context. I’m aware that just before this bit of dialogue the narrative claims JGY pointing out ‘if I hadn’t killed them you’d be dead’ is a subtle way of saying ‘you can’t kill me because you owe me your life’ as though that’s purely manipulative rather than being, you know, true. ‘Even if you refuse to accept I acted for the best, please don’t kill me and I’m going to subtly remind you that you owe me to maximise my chances of getting you to not kill me (after I just risked my life to save yours when it would have been 100x better for me personally if you died)’ is hardly an outrageous position.

It’s interesting, though, isn’t it, that NMJ never again mentions taking his own life as a matter of principle, despite the fact that he subsequently attempts to murder JGY again for the apparently unforgivable crime of … not being able to overrule his abusive father about XY, and then having the temerity to complain to LXC about NMJ’s attempt to murder him.

Obviously the Jin are a huge threat after the war, but these are all pretty feeble reasons for piling on JGY. Sure, maybe JGY would also have tried to protect XY if JGS weren’t around, but the fact is that JGS is around and he’s calling the shots. Besides, once JGS is out of the picture JGY has no issue disposing of XY (with Dr Evil levels of ineptness, apparently), so that’s a fairly decent indicator he’s not ride or die. As for the fact that JGY is making nice to NMJ’s face but complaining behind his back, well. Regardless of any genuine desire to vent to his only friend, I have no doubt he was indeed trying to drive a wedge between NMJ and LXC as a strategic move. But is it wrong of him to do so, considering NMJ is a genuine and present threat to his life and LXC is just not getting it? And does any of the above, including his struggle to maintain his position and all the other work he does for his father mean he deserves death—immediate, extrajudicial and violent death?

Let me put it this way. NMJ is making JGY responsible for his father’s actions and his father’s orders—the question of whether JGY is on board with his father’s instructions is academic, because he has no choice in the matter. JGY cannot opt out of his situation. The only opt out is death, and that is not a meaningful choice because no one else is getting vilified for having the audacity to fight for their place in their world rather than lie down and die. And even if JGY really were a cackling supervillain 100% on board with his father’s diabolical plans, NMJ’s focus on him to the exclusion of JGS is driven by emotion and not by a rational evaluation of the morality and logistics of the situation.

And when he’s insisting that JGY deserves death (and trying to mete it out to him) NMJ never again considers for a moment whether, if JGY really deserves to die, then maybe he does too.

As a third example, to make it a hat trick, we have this:

However, Jin Guangyao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin Guangyao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie Huaisang. (Chapter 49)

“Brother, it really was my father’s orders. I couldn’t refuse. Now. if you want me to take care of Xue Yang, what would I say to him?” (Chapter 49)

NMJ is perfectly aware that according to the rules of their society and the moral framework he himself subscribes to, JGY’s highest authority is his father. But NMJ can’t accept that. He thinks he should be the ultimate authority over JGY, and though he couches it in moral terms about wanting JGY to follow the correct path, what he really means is what he himself considers to be the correct path. As always, he doesn’t listen to JGY’s perfectly valid points about how it’s not possible for him to do the ‘right’ thing as he just doesn’t have that kind of authority and will only end up making his own life worse. I don’t have a quote demonstrating this, but considering everything we know about NMJ, I think we can infer he would not take kindly to JGY ordering NHS to do something futile and self-destructive in the name of the correct path, purely on the grounds that JGY is now his elder brother.

I’ll acknowledge again that JGY is absolutely an accomplice in his father’s schemes, and the originator of a fair few of them since he’s politically gifted. But it’s just not possible to untangle JGY’s complicity from his need (and his right!) to survive. NMJ is correct to be concerned about JGY as a risk, because he’s a huge asset to JGS. But once again, making JGY a target is not the moral or even the sensible thing to do. We know JGY enjoys aspects of what his father asks him to do. We also know that once his father is out of the picture he gets rid of XY, purges the Jin of corruption and pushes through the watchtower project. When he has agency as a clan leader he doesn’t follow his father’s political agenda to the letter, to say the least! So there is certainly a large dollop of truth in his claims that he has no choice and he’s unhappy and vulnerable.

And then a bonus, something not linked to JGY to demonstrate that NMJ’s hypocrisy extends beyond his personal vendetta.

Nie Mingjue spoke coldly. “If she responded with only silence and not opposition when the Wen Sect was causing mayhem, it’s the same as indifference. She shouldn’t have been so disillusioned as to hope that she could be treated with respect when the Wen Sect was doing evil and be unwilling to suffer the consequences and pay the price when the Wen Sect was wiped out.” (Chapter 73)

Charming. Funny how NMJ says this after spending the war fighting on the same side as the guy who invented demonic cultivation and controls an army of desecrated corpses, violating every possible social and cultural principle they have. But the Sunshot Campaign would have failed without WWX’s contributions, so I suppose NMJ thought that compromise was acceptable. It’s all right for him to stay silent and not oppose WWX, since WWX has been useful to his own agenda. What’s not acceptable is staying silent when the consequence is your own violent death and literally no good whatsoever being achieved thereby.

Aside from being a hypocrite, NMJ is also pathologically incapable of self-reflection.

Finish him!

At the end of the day, NMJ’s principles are inherently contradictory because he’s living in morally relative world where the narrative expects us to take context into account and root for a protagonist who brutally tortures his enemies to death and a romantic lead who find+replaces his ethical framework with ‘Wei Ying’.

It is simply not possible for NMJ to be both righteous and rigid, so when he chooses to be rigid he foregoes being righteous. Even in his moments of flexibility, he continues to apply harsh standards to others that he refuses to apply to himself. That’s what makes him a hypocrite. He isn’t a bastion of absolute morality in a sea of corruption. He’s in denial about the nuanced reality he’s living in, and placing himself on high as a moral authority with no actual mandate. Hypocrisy inevitably results, and the consequences are hugely damaging to everyone around him.