#Summer Series

[elliesfavbae]

Summer camps and dead mouses, Part 2 SERIES

Summer camp with enemies to lovers Ellie Williams

part 1, part 3, part 4

synopsis: This summer, you go to a summer camp for the first time. You've met so many new people, but one of them stands out for being a total jerk. Unfortunately for you, you run into each other all the time. Is that just a coincidence?

pairing: mean!Ellie Williams x reader

warnings: use of y/n, Ellie is still a bitch, swearing

wc:4000

Ellie is crouching ahead, probably tying her shoe, just a few feet in front of you. She hasn’t noticed you yet. You sneak up slowly from behind, almost there... And then you step on a dry stick buried in the grass.

A crack echoes in the surroundings. Ellie turns around in less than a second. She stands up and reaches over for your lanyard, but you're quick too. You deftly avoid her grasp, spin around, and start to run. A plan forms in your head. You notice her chasing you—perfect.

You dash towards the main building, bypassing the main door for the entrance to the basement, hoping it’s empty. Luckily, it’s unlocked. You silently thank Olivia for showing you this route earlier.

Of course, Ellie is still in pursuit. She rushes through the door behind you.

The room isn't large, rectangular with a shelf in the middle. You sprint to the end of the basement, hiding behind the big shelf while Ellie positions herself on the opposite side.

“What’s your plan now, hm?” she says with a smirk, raising her eyebrows.

You catch your breath. "Well, we’ll find out who’s more agile."

A while passes before Ellie decides to rush towards you, and you start running away from her. Suddenly, you turn around, hoping to catch her off guard.

But she’s ready. She tries to grab your name tag, but you manage to grab both of her arms. She falls onto you and you both collapse to the floor. She lies on top of you, momentarily still, seemingly processing what just happened. You continue holding onto her arms, feeling the tension in her muscles beneath your fingers. Unfortunately, this distracts you from everything else. It’s as if the world stops for a moment. You feel her heavy breathing on your face, so close to yours. Her hair falls onto your face and—snap. Ellie takes advantage of your distraction and tears the name tag off your lanyard.

You look up at her; she’s wearing that familiar smirk again.

“Bitch,” you murmur under your breath. She’s still lying on you and clearly hears it, raising her eyebrows, still smiling.

She gets up from the ground, and so do you.

“Got any more tags?” She reaches out her hand.

“No,” you roll your eyes.

“Shouldn’t have challenged me if you couldn’t keep up.”

“I would’ve caught you if you—” You don’t finish the sentence out loud. “—if you weren’t so... attractive,” you conclude in your thoughts. You cringe; it sounds cheesy even inside of your head.

“If I what?” She asks, playing with your name tag. “Whatever. You better stay away from me next time; you’re honestly pissing me off,” she sighs as she heads for the exit without looking back at you once.

She closes the squeaking door. You leave the basement soon after. A campfire awaits near the main square for those who lost. You drag your feet towards it, anger filling you. It’s not just about losing the game; it’s about Ellie, her attitude. She’s so proud and haughty, you wish you could wipe that smirk off her face one day. 

And the fall? Her body on top of yours? Did she do that on purpose? What? Of course not, why would she? Or maybe? You saw her being quite successful with the counselor earlier…  A flood of questions occupies your mind. You can’t help but replay the moment one last time, still feeling her hands on yours and yours on her arms. Her heavy breath hitting your forehead and auburn strands of hair falling on your cheeks. Snap out of it, you tell yourself. You still dislike her, especially when you replay all those moments when she acted like a bitch—and there are so many, even though you’ve only known her for two days.

You arrive at the campfire and notice all your roommates are already seated. Actually, a lot of people are here. Maybe watching the sunset took longer than you thought.

You sit next to friends from your cabin and sigh. The warm flames nicely warm your body.

“Y/n, you died too? Well, at least you were the last of us,” Emma, one of your roommates, points out.

“Yeah, I guess. But the way I died was so embarrassing,” you groan.

“Why, what happened?”

“Do you guys know Ellie?” You look around, seeing mostly confused faces. “The girl who took the mouse out of our bathroom yesterday? The one who was late to the assembly?” Heads finally nod in recognition.

“Well, what do you think of her?” you decide to test the waters.

“I mean, she helped us with the dead mouse yesterday... And the way she pissed off the director was kinda funny,” one of the girls remarks.

“Yeah, but doesn’t she seem, like, super bitchy to you?” No one agrees except Olivia.

“Yeah, sometimes she looks at me like she wants to kill me,” Olivia chuckles. “But I guess I don’t pay much attention to her.”

 Are you seriously the only one she irritates? Maybe the problem is you, not her… 

“I shared a kayak with her today, and she was a total ass, seriously.” You try to defend yourself.

“How so?”

“Like... um, I can’t remember her exact behavior right now, but she was just straight up mean,” you admit, feeling a bitter pang in your chest. Not because of someone’s harsh words, but because you feel like you made a fool of yourself. Does no one else find her infuriating besides you?

 “Yeah, I asked about her because she killed me in the game,” you clear your throat, “and who killed you?” Changing the subject successfully.

You enjoy the rest of the evening; it’s peaceful, and eventually, your mood improves. You’re so tired after the first day that you don’t even join your friends when they sneak out of your cabin to hang out with others; you collapse onto your bed and fall asleep immediately.

***

The next morning, an alarm clock wakes up the whole room. Since you got the most sleep last night, you are the first to actually get out of bed and have plenty of time for yourself. Looking at your other roommates, you doubt if some of them got any sleep at all last night.

You walk towards the main square with them as they discuss the events of last night.

“Seriously, y/n, it’s a shame you weren’t there yesterday. You should totally join us tonight,” Mia playfully punches your arm.

“Yeah, we had to sneak around so the counselor wouldn’t catch us. We made it to Lily’s room, and at first, we just talked—”

“Yeah, but then we started playing spin the bottle, you know. We only managed like two rounds before we heard the counselor coming, and we had to bail.”

“Mhm, we’re planning on continuing the game tonight. You’re in, right?” Mia asks.

Thinking about it now, you regret not joining the girls yesterday; you usually never say no to fun.

“Of course I am. I wish I had been there last night too,” you admit with a smile, and the girls get enthusiastic as well.

***

You’ve already chosen the activities for the day. First is swimming, then sailing, and lastly, rock climbing. Olivia is supposed to accompany you on each activity too.

You change into your swimsuit and wrap yourself in a towel. You join your group in the assembly area, recognizing some familiar faces. As you walk towards the lakeside, you pass by the horse stable. Looking closer, you notice Ellie cleaning one of the horse stalls—yesterday's punishment. You try not to burst out laughing with Olivia when you see her.

The first activity is nothing special; as soon as you get into the water, instead of swimming, you start splashing around with the cold water. Since it’s early summer, the water has barely warmed up from the sun. The rest of the activity is spent either tanning on the shore or occasionally dipping into the water, only to quickly run back to dry land as others splash you.

Since the next activity is sailing, you don’t bother changing out of your swimwear, assuming you might get wet again. However, it’s just the start of camp, so the instructor begins with theory lessons on land: boat construction, the wind rose, basic maneuvers. By the end of the lesson, all the new information begins to blur together in your mind. There’s too many. 

It’s alright, you calm yourself down; you have the whole month to learn.

After lunch (it was spaghetti today!), you spend the break reading a book in your room and hanging out with your roommates.

Now it’s time for rock climbing. It’s your first time trying it, but you’ve always wanted to try it. You change into more sporty clothes and follow Olivia to the main square. You join the crowd until you arrive at the climbing wall. You look up; the wall is about 50 feet tall—is that a lot for a climbing wall? You have no idea; it looks average.

The activity starts with the instructor’s introduction and a little theory, but fortunately, it doesn’t take up all the remaining time. First, everyone who wants to climb has to pair up with someone heavier and more experienced to belay them.

You look around; Olivia is about the same size as you, so she wouldn’t be the best match. You turn and spot her: a girl wearing a black tank top with smooth blonde hair in a single braid. She looks much more muscular than you—perfect. You approach her.

"Hey, do you mind belaying me?" You ask Abby, who looks at you with a neutral expression at first.

"Sure, why not," she responds with a warm smile lighting up her face.

The instructor gives you a bit more instruction before helping you with the climbing harness. Abby, clearly more experienced with this type of equipment, manages hers effortlessly.

"Tell me when you’re ready." You stand facing the wall, Abby behind you holding the rope to belay you. As you look up, the height suddenly seems much more daunting than the supposed 50 feet. Okay, you can do this. That’s what Olivia next to you reassures, too.

Around you, some people are already climbing, while others watch from below. You take a deep breath and grab two handholds above your head, placing both feet on lower holds. With your hand reaching for another hold, you feel the rope tighten, lifting you slightly higher. You adjust your foot and continue upwards.

The holds require more strength than you anticipated, but you push through, climbing a little higher. You’ve moved about five holds up already. Your fingers of both hands reach another holds, but they’re too small and you feel them slipping on the polyester resin slowly— you know it's only a matter of time before you lose grip.

Just before you fall, you glance down. You let go of the hold, and Abby’s rope catches you, holding you at the same height for a few seconds before she carefully lowers you to the ground. She helps you remove the harness.

"How was it?" Abby asks kindly.

"I didn’t realize climbing was that hard," you admit, your hands sore and muscles tense.

"Was that your first time?"

"Was it really that obvious?" You whine.

"Well, you got pretty high if it was your first time. Most people are too nervous to even attempt the wall," Abby encourages.

You look at the climbing wall and the point from which you fell. You climbed about, wow shocking, 7 feet. You know Abby is probably being just polite and not honest, but it's still nice of her.

"I was only up there for like 5 minutes, but thanks anyway… Do you climb often? Sorry, that's a dumb question. You look… well, clearly experienced," you say, noticing her muscles.

"Yeah, I swim too, but climbing has always been my favorite," Abby admits.

The counselor announces the session's end, and people begin to head back to their cabins.

"Well, I’ll see you around," Abby waves with a smile, leaving you and joining her friends.

You gather your things, and Olivia finds you.

"Abby, huh?" she grins teasingly.

"What do you mean?" you shake your head.

"I saw the way you were checking her out. Interesting, wouldn't have pegged you for being into the head counselor’s daughter…"

"What? No, it's not like that! Yeah, she's attractive but—" You stop short, processing her words. "Wait, did you say Mr. Anderson's daughter?!" Your eyes widen in surprise.

"Shh, not so loud. Yeah, she’s Abby Anderson. To be honest, they do look alike, kind of," Olivia laughs.

"No they don’t! Gross! She’s cute, I guess. But definitely not my type," you assure her, the rest of the walk filled with idle chatter. You prepare for dinner and head over with your group, sitting together at a table.

"Mrs. Miller told me we're playing Treasure Hunt tonight, but she said not to tell anyone, so be quiet," Leah, your roommate, reveals while eating.

"That children’s game? Oh God," you groan, anticipating it'll be boring.

"No no, it's different here. It's actually quite fun," Olivia chimes in mischievously. "Once it's dark, everyone gets paired up randomly and gets just a flashlight and a treasure map. The treasure's hidden somewhere in the woods…"

"Yeah, and the first pair to find it gets a prize." Emma adds.

"And what's the prize?" you inquire, starting to get curious.

"A fancy dinner or something, but that's not the point. It’s about being out in the dark with just a flashlight and possibly some… hot company," Olivia explains, winking at you.

"Yeah, some people really… well, they take full advantage of the occasion, you know two people left alone in the dark" Emma smirks.

"What? The way you put it sounds pretty horrible," you admit.

"No, it's thrilling!" they try to convince you. "Plus, the counselors try to spook you. Come on, it's so much fun…"

"I guess it could be fun…" You're still unsure, particularly about being alone in the woods with others trying to scare you. But you're up for new experiences, right?

"If you give up on the treasure hunt idea, we’re moving Spin the Bottle to the woods. We’ll meet by the pond."

The after-dinner break is longer than usual, you have to wait till the night comes. Three hours later, everyone gathers in the main square. Leah was right; the counselor confirms it’s Treasure Hunt night.

The rules are reiterated, although you’re already familiar with them. Finally, the pairs are announced.

"Y/n and Amelia Oakley."

You walk to the center and see Amelia approaching. Short brown hair, glasses— right, you met her at Arts and Crafts yesterday. She seemed nice. You both approach another counselor who distributes flashlights and the treasure map.

"Hey, we met at Arts and Crafts yesterday," you initiate the conversation.

"Yeah, I remember you," she says warmly.

She might not be the "super hot company" your friends were telling you about, but the game should still be enjoyable with her as a partner. At least you didn’t end up with a total nightmare like Ellie for example. Phew.

You all gather at the main gate, waiting for the game to commence. It’s a serene night; the sun has already set, and while it's dark, it’s not completely pitch-black yet. The stars are beginning to twinkle above, and you can hear the rustling of leaves and the breeze through the trees.

The director opens the gate, and as everyone prepares to dash off, he speaks up.

"You have to be here in exactly three hours, or sooner. Whistles will blow 10 minutes before the end. Don’t even think about leaving the designated area; the counselors will find you anyway. Remember, we have eyes and ears everywhere." You gulp, recalling the stories your friend shared about counselors lurking in the dark woods. "Let the game begin!"

The rush is palpable as the crowd surges toward the nearest path. Amelia grabs your hand, and you both join the sprint. Initially, everyone follows the same route, but as time passes, the group thins out as people take different directions.

"Let's turn left now!" Amelia shouts above the din, and you follow suit. After a few moments, you stop to catch your breath.

"Okay. What's our plan? How do we find this treasure?" you ask, still panting.

"Well, according to the map," she shines her flashlight on the paper, "we need to head to the west side of the woods. But are we really here just for the treasure?"

You look at her, confused.

"What else would we be here for?"

"I mean, for many, the appeal of this game is the freedom. For one night, you’re left alone in the woods. It would be a shame to use that time only to find some hidden treasure," she suggests, her face softly illuminated by the flashlight.

What are her intentions? Hopefully just friendly…

"Yeah, I guess… But what else could we do?" You were kind of looking forward to the treasure hunt before.

"Some people form groups and hang out, others like to spook the other campers," Amelia explains.

"That sounds more interesting than the original game," you admit.

"Okay, but how do we find them?" you wonder aloud.

"Well, we either stumble upon them, or we could sit quietly and listen for any approaching footsteps. Though that might seem a bit creepy," she laughs.

"I suppose we could try the first option…"

You start walking through the woods, unfortunately without encountering anyone. It’s now completely dark; your flashlight is your only source of light. It’s getting chilly, and you regret not bringing a hoodie.

"You know, thinking about it now, letting teenagers loose in the woods all night seems like a pretty risky idea. What if someone goes missing or something?" you voice your concerns.

"For the past 30 years, it hasn’t happened. And the counselors are everywhere. They might even be right behind you," Amelia says, sending a shiver down your spine. "Don’t worry, if you were to yell for help, three of them would probably appear instantly."

"That's a little unsettling," you chuckle nervously.

Suddenly, you hear the crackling of leaves behind you. You whip around, and Amelia grabs your hand. Both of you freeze, listening intently.

The sound comes again— louder, closer…

"RAAAAAH!" a scream echoes right behind you. Startled, Amelia lets go of your hand and bolts. You run after her, the creature in hot pursuit behind you.

You continue running until you reach a fork in the road. Glancing back, your flashlight reveals two human silhouettes giving chase, they’re so close now. You turn back, noticing Amelia is missing. Fuck, she has already chosen a path, but you’re unsure which one. Deciding quickly, you turn right, hoping to meet her there.

You shine your flashlight ahead but see no sign of Amelia. After a while, you can’t hear footsteps behind you either. Turning around, you realize you’re now alone. Alone in the woods with only your flashlight, you’ve lost the treasure map long ago. That was probably the fastest you’ve run in your life.

"Fuck…" you curse under your breath, standing still to catch your breath. You look around, finding no one in sight. Your first instinct is to backtrack to the fork in the road, but as you start walking, you realize you lost your way in the heat of the chase.

You're on the verge of calling out for counselors, as Amelia suggested, when a distant flashlight catches your eye. At this point, you're indifferent whether it's the chasers, Amelia, or anyone else; you just can't stand being alone in these dark woods anymore. Flashing your own light a few times, you hurry over to the source. As you shine your flashlight in their face, you realize it’s… Ellie.

"For fuck’s sake, can you stop blinding me with that damn thing?!" You would’ve recognized this tone everywhere, even if you didn’t know it’s Ellie.

"Ellie…"

"No way," she groans, hiding her face in her hands. She realizes it’s you who she has bumped into. "I've been wandering alone for twenty minutes, and you are the first person I meet?"

"Why are you alone?"

"I ditched my partner ages ago. At first, I was scaring the other campers," she smirks. "It was hilarious— they were all pissing their pants. But then I got bored and headed towards the pond."

Right, you remember. Your friends mentioned they were meeting there. A thought appears in your head.

“I was walking towards the pond, too”

"They invited you to play too?" she sighs, clearly mad. "I was hoping to leave you here once you’re done talking."

"Not that simple, Williams," you reply, feeling just as displeased about the reunion. "Do you know the way?"

"It’s on the map, genius," she scoffs.

"Well, I lost mine. Looks like we're walking together," you say, hearing Ellie emit another groan.

For a while, silence hangs between you both. It's not exactly awkward—more like a mutual animosity. 

"I lost my partner when we got chased," you eventually mention.

"I don't care," Ellie cuts you off with a sharp tone, prompting a sigh from you.

"Ellie, what is your problem?"

"My problem? What do you mean?" Her tone betrays her disinterest.

"You are such a bitch to me. Since the first time we’ve talked."

"Thanks."

"Answer me, Ellie," you insist, growing tired of the tension.

"You annoy me. Your face, your voice… I don’t know. What do you expect? Maybe I'm just a bitch," Ellie sighs, revealing a glimpse of vulnerability.

In the distance, you hear murmurs of human voices from behind the trees.

"Looks like we're here," you comment as you and Ellie approach the gathering.

You see about ten people gathered in a circle. Spotting your friends, you walk over to them.

"Hey, Y/n! We've been waiting for you!" They greet you eagerly.

"How long have you been here?" you ask, settling down as they make room for you.

"Not long. Just got here about five minutes ago. We're still waiting on a few more," Olivia informs you.

You glance around. Someone has cleared the leaves and sticks for seating so the ground is clear. Some people have placed their flashlights on the ground, while others still hold theirs. A greenish pond shimmers a few feet away, reflecting all of the lights.

After a while, five more people join the circle. Despite the dim lighting, you manage to recognize some faces, including Abby, the girl who belayed you while climbing earlier.

A deep voice cuts through the murmurs. "Quiet, everyone! Let’s start the game."

Taglist: @littlelittlebear

[the-conversation-pod]

Second Rate Second Chance: The Letdowns of Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living With Him

And we're back! We brought our good friend @twig-tea back to talk about how two Japanese BLs should have been 10s but absolutely flopped for us. This week we're talking about second chance romances, long-term pining, and their roles in queer narratives. Join us to break down what it's like to watch a show fall apart in real time.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked 00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work 00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started 00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong 00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back. This week, we're gonna be unpacking two Japanese shows that really let us down this season in our Second Rate Second Chance episode. We've brought our friend twig-tea back to the podcast. 

Say hi, Twig. 

Twig 

Hi everyone. 

Ben 

We brought Twig back on because Twig and I have been watching Japanese BL and Japanese cinema for a long time. We have seen a lot of the good and bad of Japanese BL, and unfortunately both Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living with Him fall into the bad column for us. 

We both have a genuine fondness for the way that Japanese teams often execute queerness with a lot of approachable specificity that really lets both of us connect to the queer truth of these characters. 

That's personally important for me because, beyond these shows kind of fumbling the bag, they also undercut the queer narratives they're telling with some of the mistakes they've made. This is something that's becoming a burgeoning issue for me and Twig in our discussions about the state of global BL, and so we're going to also get into that towards the end. 

00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked

NiNi 

Let's start with Love is Better the Second Time Around. Ben, what is Love is Better the Second Time Around about?

Ben 

Love is Better the Second Time Around is a second chance Japanese BL about two guys in their earlyish 30s who were very close in their teens when they were in school together, broke up, and are now running into each other again as a result of work. 

Our main character's name is Miyata Akihiro. He is an editor for some sort of business and economics magazine and he is assigned to work with this writer and professor, who happens to be his childhood boyfriend. They were supposed to be very serious, and then they had a really painful breakup at a crucial moment. Iwanaga Takashi has clearly still been in love with Miyata this whole time and is flirting relentlessly with this man. They work through some, but not all of their issues and are able to start going out together again before the show absolutely shits the bed. 

Before we get to that portion of it,Twig! Walk us through the early developments when we were initially responding positively to the show and what we were really dialed in on. 

Twig 

The first four episodes of this show were some of my favorite television this year. Which is why I’m so upset about the last two, but we'll get there.

When they meet each other as adults, the messiness of their past is established right away, and you can feel the tension between them. The grudge that Miyata holds is really fun to watch. Iwanaga is a real flirt. He leans into the sort of playboy personality that was also really fun to watch. 

It immediately felt adult. Iwanaga admitted to having casual sex with his assistant. Miyata made fun of him for it. They had a kiss in that first episode. It was so good. Miyata decided that he was an adult now, and he wasn't gonna be pushed around by his senpai from high school anymore. The assistant, Shiraishi, was a bitch. A really fun bitch to watch. [laughs]

Ben 

[laughs] He really was. He was a real bitch for like, the first four or five episodes. I loved it. 

NiNi 

I enjoyed that. 

Ben 

He was played by Takamatsu Aloha, who was in Tokyo in April Is… playing Ren there. It was really fun to see him again. 

NiNi 

He really nailed the whole bitchy, “Who is this new person? Why are they around this person that I am perceiving to be my man? I need to get rid of this person quick, fast. What is the fastest way that I can do that?” Mm, loved it. It was so, so bitchy. Perfect. 

Twig 

And it played so well to what felt like the point of the story, which was that the main characters are older now, and to have this younger person around acting younger really helped highlight the fact that these older characters are a little bit more mature and so they're making slightly more mature decisions. [laughs] I won't say very much more mature, but a little bit. He actually worked really well to help emphasize that part of the story. 

And we learned early on that Miyata was trying to get engaged; we also see him [laughs] fail at it so badly. That scene is one of my favorites, where he's opening the ring box and Fukuda-san, she won't let him propose. She keeps closing it in his face. 

Ben 

That was honestly one of the most enjoyable meta moments about BL, where the girl who doesn't deserve this sees a very bad proposal coming and physically restrains [laughs] restrains [NiNi laughs] the main character from opening the ring box so he can't propose. 

NiNi 

It was super funny. So good. She was just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 

Twig 

It was perfect. And then, of course Miyata then called Iwanaga to complain about not being allowed to propose, which was perfect and gave more opportunities for extreme flirting. 

I loved so much that these two characters started having sex again while Miyata was still mad and still unwilling to be in a relationship with Iwanaga. Miyata confirming that the sex did not mean anything. 

NiNi 

I loved that he was just like, “I wondered if you were good at this. I'm so mad at you right now.” [NiNi and Twig laugh] That was so funny!

Ben 

That was also kinda hot, let's be real. 

Twig 

Yes! Ben and I had a whole conversation about how finally a scene with tension in yukatas pays off and we see people actually have sex. 

Ben 

Let me tell you. The real sign that you've been in Japanese BL for a while is when you see two fuckin’ boys in yukata sharing a room together and you know no one's gonna fuck. 

Twig 

Right? [laugh]

Ben 

There's a fun one for the listeners. Sound off in the comments. List all of the Japanese BL that put those boys in yukata and then did not deliver. 

Twig 

But we got it in this one, finally. And we also got that iconic line, “If you love me, don't apologize.” Which is also, whoo. 

NiNi 

I did enjoy that. “Do not apologize for this because I'm ‘bout to have a good ass time.” 

Ben 

I wanna do a quick follow up on one of the comments you made about the maturity of these characters relative to Shiraishi in the story. This is a moment where Shiraishi intentionally doesn't deliver a message about an updated deadline to Iwanaga for the column he's writing for Miyata’s magazine. And it causes a real problem because now Miyata has to go rush to Iwanaga, who was away on a work trip, and get him to hurriedly write this article. It leads to an important sex scene, which is great for us and the yukata delivery that we were very happy about. But I really like that Miyata is so done with Shiraishi. When he finally confronts him about it, he's like, “I don't care if you don't like me, but you're fucking up other people’s lives when you do shit like this.” He wasn't angry at him, the just jaded disappointment cut that man to the fucking bone. He was not ready for it. 

Twig 

It both illustrated Miyata being more mature and also wasn't letting Shiraishi get to him, that you're not actually a threat, but you're now a problem, so you need to stop. It really highlighted how young and petty he was. 

Ben 

I really love the way you sum that up. “You're not a threat, you're a problem” is so succinct. And that's really what hurt him in that moment, he realized he had really fucked up. There's no winning at that point. There's only the huge loss of face on his part. 

Twig 

Exactly. 

And then we got Miyata jerking off to Iwanaga’s face in the shower. 

Ben 

It was really accessible sexuality in this show that was actually really surprising for us because we've been dealing with a lot of cutesy BL lately, it feels like, so it was really refreshing to have these guys have access to their own sexuality and be able to express that and act on it. 

Twig 

There are ways in which sex is handled in BL. Sometimes it's held back to add tension to a story, but it's often also done in a way that makes the story feel puritanical. From episode 1, we knew that they wanted to fuck. By episode 3 they were fucking. 

That just felt so refreshing. Yeah, these are grown ass adults who have had a previous relationship before. They know each other, so there's some level of familiarity there. They're attracted to each other. They want to bone down and so they do. That seems perfectly reasonable. It's actually ridiculous it doesn't happen more often. 

NiNi 

From the moment that Iwanaga sees Miyata again, it's game on. He's like, “Okay, this? This is happening. I don't care what it's going to take for this to happen, but this is absolutely happening.” 

Twig 

He bought that man cufflinks. 

NiNi 

He did what needed to be done, absolutely. He was not playing around. He decided that this is what they're doing and he made it happen. 

Ben

So I think what I really wanna highlight here about this particular show with the second chance component is we were actually super dialed in on how seriously the show was taking that part of the premise. Iwanaga comes from a very wealthy family and he was dealing with some shit and he was like, we're gonna run away. Normal, stupid kid shit. The two of them planned to meet at the train station and get out of there and go make it in Tokyo. A stupid character we'll talk about later complicates the situation by convincing Miyata that Iwanaga is just toying with him. Miyata is hurt and embarrassed by this, and does not show up to go on the train. The two of them end up separated by Iwanaga’s family circumstances, and that was their big break. 

So when they meet up again, Miyata has real beef with this man. And the show doesn't downplay the seriousness of Miyata’s hurt. That was such a real relief. If the characters have done real harm to each other, we do need to focus on the reconciliation that's critical for this relationship to work this time, and that was something that this show was handling so seriously. Even though Iwanaga wasn't actually giving Miyata all the things that we, the audience, were like, he needs to do these things if it's gonna work. His charm was enough that Miyata was wanting for them to complete the reconciliation. 

We don't get second chance like this where the breakup was actually the fault of one of the guys, even if it's complicated by familial homophobia stuff. They were serious about each other at the time, but Iwanaga was doing this playboy shit even then. And so Miyata can't feel secure with him because it's the same bullshit again. I like that their 30 year old selves were not fundamentally different from their younger selves. They were just more experienced. 

Twig

The last thing on my list of when I was still really vibing with the show is the “feelings-off,” as I like to call it. Miyata challenged Iwanaga, “You never felt as strongly about me as I felt about you” and Iwanaga said, “Try me.” And so Miyata challenges him, “Did you ever cry about me into your pillow? Did you think about me when I wasn't there? Do you jerk off to me, ‘cause I did.” He gives him four or five things to say, “Were you this embarrassing about me, because I haven't seen you be embarrassing about me.” And Iwanaga says, “Yes. I was.” And that's finally the thing that allows Miyata to give him another chance. 

00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work

NiNi 

So we build all that up. We're having a great time. Everybody's vibing with the show. And then it all turns. 

From the time that the family started showing up, that was when the show went, to me, off the rails. I was just like, all of this is interesting, but not the same story that they were telling all the time. 

Ben 

It was confusing. We were in this really solid second chance romance arc where we were focused on the guys rebuilding their relationship with each other. And then it feels like they didn't know what to do with the guys once the “fuck you, don't touch me” barrier falls away. They immediately complicate that by trying to reintroduce Iwanaga's family trauma as this sudden barrier. 

This is the common theme with the two shows that we’re gonna talk about, introducing contrived bullshit barriers to keep the characters apart and fuck up their ability to talk to each other when the entire arc is built upon these guys improving the way they talk to each other. That's the real fundamentally unsatisfying aspect of all of this. I'm usually a defender for the way people interact in Japanese cinema. We talk about trying to bring a level of cultural competency to watching Asian media, having been raised in the west. Respect the way that these cultures handle some of their communication protocols when they're engaging with each other. We talk about respecting the way honorifics work in these languages and how that impacts the way these people talk about each other. Listening to some of the tones they use with each other, about how certain terms immediately signify things, and these things don't always translate well. You just have to be able to hear and understand these things. I don't really wanna give these two shows that we're gonna to continue talking about here a lot of credit for this. 

This show was in the middle of a really satisfying second chance romance arc of rebuilding a relationship and then completely throws that out the fuckin’ window. Iwanaga is now the male scion of a wealthy family that disowned him for being a homo, but now needs him to come back because his sister is like, “Yeah, fuck all this Japanese nonsense. I'm marrying a foreign man and we're gonna r-u-n-n-o-f-t. That's fine as an arc on its own, but I kinda wish we had like an extra episode or two for these guys to move further along their arc before we introduced that, and it was doubly frustrating because Iwanaga immediately regresses in a way that is not satisfying because he isn't our main character. If Miyata was the one who was suddenly regressing, we have been in that man's head. We were in the shower when he was beating his dick to this dude. We get it. We know what this man is going through. So if he were the one to regress, we would be down with it. We would understand the emotional complexities that he was facing. But the difficulty with Iwanaga being the one to suddenly back off in the middle of all this family nonsense is we never understood the family nonsense. So reintroducing that with this shit heel of a cousin who really wants to fuck Iwanaga was just so deeply unsatisfying, and honestly kind of offensive, because they don't even dwell on it. They're relying on the shorthand of us just going, “Well, they're gay, right? Homophobia. Whatchu gonna do?” 

NiNi 

[laughs] What I was gathering the story was leading up to the family coming in at that point in time, is that at this point in the story, maybe their romantic feelings had gotten ahead of their commitment. So they're feeling a lot of things, but they haven't talked about a lot of things. They haven't decided what they're gonna do or who they're going to be to each other. They're just sitting in the moment enjoying being together, enjoying having sex and all that kind of stuff. But they haven't really decided what they're gonna be. And then all this family shift comes in so you're just like, oh, okay, they're out over their skis. They don't know what they're doing. All this stuff is happening at exactly the wrong time because it's throwing them back into a history that they haven't really dealt with. Okay, this is good. 

But then instead of focusing on that, they focus it towards Iwanaga’s family and what actually happened back then and how it affects Iwanaga, and that doesn't really work? I don't care about that at this point in time. I want to know what's happening with Miyata and Iwanaga’s relationship. 

Twig 

I think there's room for where we could have cared about it, but we weren't given time or space. There's a story there of Iwanaga so alienated from his family that he wanted to run away with his boyfriend, and they found out about it, and he took all of the blame and didn't let anyone know who Miyata was so that he wouldn't get in trouble. And so his family disowned him. He was cut out of the family registry and cut out of his family’s life. There's a really tragic story there and we're given almost no time to sit with that or care about it. His hurt isn't given any time. 

Instead, we just find out that Iwanaga made the decision to let Miyata think he was the butt of a joke and stay heartbroken for years, decade, rather than admit that Iwanaga had family problems when they were kids. And then we see him be willing to let Miyata go again for the exact same reason as adults. And so all of the work we'd seen Miyata do to process what had happened in their relationship in the past and decide to trust Iwanaga again. Iwanaga betrayed that trust, frankly, by not allowing himself to be vulnerable with Miyata. We find out in the very last episode that Miyuata actually fell in love with Iwanaga in a vulnerable moment, he saw him crying alone on the pier, and that was where his feelings turned to love. So we know that Miyata cares about Iwanaga as a person who is not perfect, and he wants Iwanaga to be less cool. And Iwanaga has not learned the lesson. 

So, I left this series feeling like I can't trust this relationship to continue in any other way than exactly the way it's happened twice before. It's very frustrating. 

Ben 

There’s this moment in, like, episode 5 or 6 where Miyata goes and confronts Shiraishi, who decides to stop being a bitch at the final moment. Why? 

Twig 

I was disappointed. 

Ben 

He should have been a bitch the whole time. [laughs]

Twig 

I just needed to see this man be mean to Miyata one more time and they didn't give me that. 

Ben 

That's the point, because Iwanaga never has that important vulnerable moment with Miyata. The emotional reveal has to come from the not-rival, which is not satisfying.

You know what? I'm not done bitching. Let's talk about what the show thought it was doing with the cousin. I feel like the cousin is meant here to be the stand in for what trying to be queer and closeted inside of this family does to you. So we get this vile man in Sugimoto who is just so gross and playing these goofy, manipulative games trying to achieve some sort of position for himself or his branch of the family. Is what I think they thought they were doing? It did not land for me at all. 

Twig

Yeah. At some point, it seemed like we were supposed to believe that Sugimoto was secretly on Iwanaga and Miyata’s side the whole time. And he was, like, testing them and that test was supposed to be some sort of thing that they should be grateful for. I was like, no. 

Ben

I'm gonna do that the next time I get called on some bullshit. You passed the test!

[all laugh]

NiNi

I legit don't understand, like I actually don't narratively understand what happened there. Not just in terms of what they thought they were doing thematically, but narratively that whole part of the story is so confusing. 

Ben

NiNi is correct. The first four episodes we were like, “This is a banger. This is gonna be a 10. We gotta tell all the other girlies you need to watch this.” Episode 5 happens, we were like, “Whoa, what the fuck?” And then by the time episode 6 ends, we're like, “Never mind, girls. You don't need to follow us in this one.” 

Twig

Shiraishi and Sugimoto have the same role and arc in that final episode. 

Ben

Like, we already had a bitch. We didn't need another one!

Twig

Two bitches is too many bitches. [laughs]

Ben

And they didn't even team up and have, like, nasty sex or something. 

Twig

Oh my God, I could have forgiven everything if that had happened. 

NiNi

First of all, “Two bitches is too many bitches” is perfect, but the other thing is it feels like they thought they needed to have a bitch in the past and a bitch in the present. 

Twig

Do you want me to tell you my theory? 

Ben

Oh, bestie, I want to hear all of your theories. Go for it. 

NiNi

Tell us. Tell us. Spill the tea. 

Twig

So I tried really hard to find the manga for this because I needed to know what had gone wrong in the adaptation and I couldn't find it. If anyone out there has it, please send it to me. What I do know is that there are three volumes and that it's still ongoing. One of the things that Japan likes to do, usually one of its worst mistakes when they do an adaptation, is they try to squeeze together at least two volumes into what should be one volume series adaptation. And so we get one really good arc, and then an entire volume or two squeezed into the very end, feeling rushed because they are rushed. So that's my totally uneducated, but based on experience, guess about why this felt like two different shows and two different arcs. Because it probably was? 

00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

Unfortunately, that is gonna end it for this show. I really want you all, if you've taken the time to listen to us, to really understand that…end of episode 4, we were like 10s, 10s all around. This show is doing some great shit. There's some hot messes here that need to be resolved, but the way that we're being led through this with these characters, the way they're talking to each other, the way we're in it with them was so, so satisfying. Before this show shits the bed. 

I am a queer cinema critic who really loves BL and the role it fulfills in the global queer cinema landscape. My goal is to connect other queer people to meaningful stories that they can enjoy. And sometimes that means that we have to say a show really fucked up, guys. If you do watch it, please understand that we loved the show for four episodes and then it transitions in a way that is not satisfying at all. But the first four episodes were still some of the best shit we've seen in a long time. And with that in mind, let's rate this motherfucker! 

NiNi? 

NiNi 

I get to go first. Oh me, oh my. 

Ben 

We love J-BL, so you get to rate without us giving our ratings. [laugh]

NiNi 

I will give this a 6.5. Disappointing me at the end is always gonna hurt me more than something that was wobbly from the start. 

Ben 

Twig-tea? 

Twig 

I gave it a 7. After I first finished it I gave it an 8, but the longer it sat with me, the madder I got. So I’ve downgraded it. 

Ben 

It is also a 7 for me, because where this show goes wrong is very obvious. I think BL viewers would learn a lot about the genre from watching this and understanding where some of us have come from. With that in mind, I'm giving this show a 6.9 from The Conversation because the sex was good in this show. 

[NiNi and Twig laugh]

NiNi 

Producer privilege rearing its head, I see you, I see you. 

Twig 

We didn't talk about how pretty Iwanaga is. 

Ben 

You know, we have not simped over these men. Let's talk about how fuckin’ beautiful Furuya Robin and Hasegawa Makoto were. Holy shit! We have needed some older guys in J-BL—older being 30, for fucks sake. [NiNi laughs] But these guys are fucking beautiful. 

Twig 

He put on his reading glasses and I [goofy voice] swooned. 

NiNi 

Hasegawa Makoto was a delight to look at. 

Ben 

Holy shit! As we're recording this, it is Furuya Robin’s birthday. Happy birthday, sir. 

Twig 

Happy birthday! 

NiNi 

Happy birthday, indeed. Keep aging like fine wine. 

I'm so mad, though, this show was at 10 right up until, like episode 5, and then it went from a 10 to 6.5. 

Ben 

It really was. NiNi’s rating is not off. If I didn't think the show was useful to talk about for people, I would have given it probably a 6.

NiNi 

Love is Better the Second Time Around gets a 6.9 from The Conversation, recommended with severe caveats. 

00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started

NiNi

Let's move on to the next show that disappointed us: Living With Him. Ben, what is Living With Him about?

Ben

[deep sigh] Living With Him is about how we will never get the roommates BL that we deserve. [NiNi laughs] All of the energy that we were supposed to get out of roommates BL was lost to the Philippines during the quarantine period. We blew all of that energy on lockdown stories. Goddammit! 

Living With Him is about two college freshmen who are going to live together because they were once childhood friends, and their moms think it might be financially beneficial and emotionally beneficial for the two of them to reconnect, since they're both going away to start school away from home and they would like for them to have someone to live with that they also know. We're primarily following Natsukawa Ryota, who is so excited to be going to college. He has dyed his hair brown. He is no longer gonna be doing house chores and taking care of his little sisters. He is ready to spread his little wings and figure out who his actual personality is going to be. He is living with his childhood friend, Tanaka Kazuhito, who is obviously gay and obviously has had a huge crush on Natsukawa for a long time. Kazuhito is also dealing with some major changes in his life—he was a national competing level baseball player in high school who can no longer play baseball due to a shoulder injury. It's very clear that Kazuhito has feelings for Natsukawa, and Natsukawa picks up on this fairly quickly, particularly because all of Kazuhito's friends are being real shady about it. 

And I was really excited about what this show was going to be, because this was about two childhood friends reconciling and dealing with this major thing between them. What was really enjoyable about this show—now that we covered the premise of two childhood friends moving together, one of them has a crush, the other one picks up on it—is they talk about this crush in episode 3, and we were primed for the rest of the show to deal with this crush being in the open and reconciling what that change in your relationship is gonna look like. 

Where this show goes wrong. After episode 3, episode 4 is them being awkward around each other—a completely reasonable reaction. They come to some sort of agreement by the end of that, and decide they’re going to go on a trip together in episode 5, but they do nothing with that. Episode 6 is a useless fuckin’ flashback episode about shit we already knew to lead into the seventh episode where Kazuhito decides to preemptively reject himself for Natsukawa's benefit, who suddenly can't open his fuckin’ mouth. Into stupid forced separation nonsense for a whole fuckin’ episode and then Japanese track star run for no reason, don't link up with each other, and then pick up episode 8 not dealing with the failed Japanese track star BL run. And we end on this perfunctory note where they wanna suddenly get us back on track in the finale. 

Gone on an extensive ramble there. I apologize for you having to edit that, NiNi.

NiNi

I was just lettin’ you cook, fam.

Ben

I would like for you to unpack your experience coming behind us and catching up with our disappointment.

NiNi

As usual, when it comes to the shorter BLs, I like to binge, so I started Living With Him loving everything about it, loving the emotional core of what it is. One of the big things that really got to me is that they do, throughout the show, have flashbacks to their childhood, and there's a lot of good The Knowing content in there. I was just like, “Oh yes, this is so good. He's been feeling this way for such a long time. We're gonna delve into that. It's gonna be so good. It's gonna be so emotional.” [sigh]

And then they don't really do anything with that. For five episodes, the show had me. Kazuhito is teasing Ryota, saying-not-saying the thing. Ryota basically figures it out with the help of Kazuhito’s friends. He's now starting to think, “Okay, well, what is this?” To have a conversation about it. And then you're getting into episode 4 and episode 5, where they’re turning these things around in their heads, and then the last thing that happens in episode 5 that I really responded to, they have like a physical movement where he tells Kazuhito “You can hug me,” basically. And that moment was so heavy. It was so good. And I'm looking forward to having the outgrowth of that moment. And instead we get a fuckin’ flashback. [laughs] And then we get weird sort of casual-homophobia-not-homophobia from Kazuhito's mother.

Ben

Worse, we got compulsory heterosexuality.

NiNi

And then it's like that didn't happen in the end like, okay, that's a digression that we went on. We don't know why we did that. We're going back to the main story now. But now I've lost the emotional thread. They're doing all this stuff and it's cute or whatever, they decided they're going to be together, great, but it's not landing anymore. They've lost me. They've broken the tension. They've broken the emotional thread. I don't feel it anymore. 

Okay. So, Ben and I have both talked a lot. Twig you step in here. What are your thoughts about this? How did you feel that the show went wrong? What did you think the show did well?

Ben

Walk us through your process, Twig.

Twig

It’s so, so bad. [laughs]

Ben

Walk us through it, bestie.

Twig

All right. Okay. I was so invested in these two. We start with Natsukawa and the show sets up so well that he's excited to be on his own, and he's unsure about his childhood friend Kazuhito being there. Kazuhito is immediately weird in ways that throw Natsukawa off, and which the audience, or at least the gay audience, immediately clock as, “Oh, this man is gay and catty about it.” NiNi, you called it teasing. Oh, it’s more than that. I was having so much fun with Kazuhito and the way he was like, “Mmm. I wonder what it could be. Why would girls always be unhappy with me as their boyfriend? I wonder.” This man. [laughs]

NiNi

It was so good. He was basically like, “I am trying to tell you in every way possible that I am A) gay and B) into you, and you are just not picking this up, sir.”

Twig

And he was mean about it in a way that wasn't mean mean, but when they go on their adorable not-date, which was some of the best domesticity we've had in a while, Kazuhito says to Natsukawa, “It's all right, you wouldn't get it.” The way he was just calling him out for being obliviously heteronormative without actually calling him out, it was beautiful. And the best part about that was he was wrong. Natsukawa did figure it out, and so Kazuhito being so sure that Natsukawa was too straight to get it, actually blew up in his face in a way that I loved. 

The way that they were so honest with each other and the way that they cared about their relationship, this is one of the things that this show does really right about friends to lovers. Even though they're a little bit unsure with each other cause they haven't talked in a while, they still really care about this relationship between the two of them, and they don't wanna fuck that up. But rather than not fuck it up by holding it all in, they actually talk to each other about it ‘cause both of these men have an understanding that communication is actually important. Both of them say to each other at one point or another, “I think you've misunderstood something that I said. I'm gonna clarify that.” Or, “I said that that was a joke, but I was actually lying about that. I did mean it.” The fact that we got to a place where Kazuhito owned his feelings and said, “Listen, tell me if you're uncomfortable, but I'm happy to just keep things as they are” and Natsukawa immediately empathized with him and said, “Wow, this must have been so hard for you. Is there anything I can do to make this better for you?” That was beautiful. It was such a loving moment, even though it wasn't romantic yet? Their relationship was so good and then the show fucked it up so badly. [laughs]

The other thing I loved about this show, before I move on to why I'm so mad at it, was the way they used the friendship group to establish that Kazuhito had clearly talked about this man before, when he wasn't around, [laugh] to the point where his friends recognize who he was and how important he was to Kazuhito. So they met Natsukawa—they treated him like he was a minor celebrity. Like, “This is Natsukawa?”

NiNi

He reminded me of What Did You Eat Yesterday? When what's-her-name finally meets Kenji.

Twig 

Oh yes! Yes.

Ben

I would like for you to note that NiNi is the one who brought up What Did You Eat Yesterday? this time, not me. [Twig and Ben laugh]

NiNi

Duly noted. It's delightful. He doesn't even have to introduce himself. Yoshida is like, “Oh, you must be Natsukawa.” And he's like, “What?” and she's like, “Shhh shh shh shh shhhh. Don't worry about how I know that.”

Twig 

Kazuhito gets called away and he's like, “Come on, guys. Let's go there.” And they’re like, “No, we're good. We're gonna stay and talk to this man.” [Twig and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

The gossip is here! Why would you go where you are, this is where the good stuff is.

Twig

[sigh] And then.

00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong

Ben

And then! Take us in, Twig.

Twig

Okay, so, episode 4 happened, and I did appreciate sitting with the awkwardness after the intensity of those emotional conversations and the uncertainty of what things were gonna be like now. That actually felt true. But the problem was it started to feel slow. This is where I think it started to drag. 

Episode 5 was clearly filler. We go camping. Okay, there shoulda been a kiss. I'm still mad about it. What it seemed like they were trying to do with the camping episode was establish some of Natsukawa's insecurities. He wants to seem a little more competent and cool in front of Kazuhito. That already felt a bit weird to me because in their apartment he's the one who cooks, so he already has established himself as someone who does things that Kazuhito can't. He also in the flashbacks, in the earlier episodes to their childhood, was established as the one in Kazuhito's life who didn't see him as perfect. Who liked him as he was and as not perfect. So for him to suddenly be caught up in Kazuhito as a perfect guy didn't feel true to the character we'd gotten to that point?

NiNi

I felt like this episode was really about Natsukawa trying to flirt. I feel like Natsukawa has certain confidences, but the insecurities that Natsukawa is dealing with here are about his romantic potential. It's not that he sees himself as smaller or less, but it's more like when it comes to romance and sex and all those things he doesn't feel as confident in that way.

Twig

I agree with you, which is why it was so weird that so much of the camping thing was about how Natsukawa learned all of these camping things so that he could give Kazuhito a good time and then couldn't get the lighter started and so they had to rely on these girls. It felt like they were focusing on the wrong parts of him that he didn't have confidence in.

NiNi

But if he's trying to flirt with Kazuhito in this way, then maybe it's more like, “I'm trying to flirt and I'm failing at it” kind of thing.

Ben

See and this is where things could have been really interesting. Here is the problem: Natsukawa wanting to take care of Kazuhito as his primary way to respond to their situation made total sense. The only skills he's really developed outside of studying are domestic chores. Being unable to deliver on that front when they went camping was totally reasonable and there was something potentially interesting there, but they don't really deal with that properly. There's this actually kind of satisfying moment at the end where he says plainly, “I want you to rely on me more,” that lands pretty smoothly from where we were in episode 3, where he was like, “You must have been holding this for a long time. How do I help you?” And ending on “rely on me more, dummy,” was absolutely fine. 

The big problem for me was episode 6. If the thematic point and the thrust of episode 5 is “rely on me more, dummy” the byproduct and answer to that in episode 6 should have been that man waking up and saying, “I've always relied on you.” But instead, the show backs off from them entirely by having Kazuhito break up in the next episode because they don't know what the fuck else to do. I guess. The natural response to that fucking long-ass flashback telling us that this man has always thought about this man, that he has defined a huge part of his adolescence, was for him to wake up and say it. And he doesn't. This leads to the finale episode where finally he says what he has to say and Kazuhito's like, “This is the happiest moment of my life. Let's dead fish kiss” and I'm like, absolutely not! This man has been horny for 10 years. I need to see that being released now. 

The thing about me with this is, like—Shan and I joke about this. We are real haters. But like a big part about being a hater is being a lover! You love these shows. You love what they do really well, and where they fuck up is so obvious sometimes. The obvious fuck up of this show is Ryota saying clearly “rely on me more” and then Natsukawa not talking to him for basically two episodes after that, the end of episode 5 is a very clear request from one of our romantic leads to the other that the other romantic lead does not respond to. The guy who has been in love with this man the whole fucking time receives a direct request from him. The guy who was apparently the reason why he was able to get his fucking life back together, and he does not respond to that clear stated request, and because he can't respond to that, it shuts down Natsukawa's arc for the rest of the show about who is he beyond caring for other people. It's so deeply unsatisfying.

NiNi

Twig, in terms of where it breaks down for you, is that similar to where Ben's talking about or do you have a different place where things start to break down?

Twig

Episode 6 is definitely the waste of an entire episode, just illustrating things that they'd already told us through conversation. Show, not tell, but there's no point in showing us what you already told us. That's a waste of time. Natsukawa, his arc got completely fucked up by all of the wasted space in this show. That's why it feels so confusing and unsatisfying, because the order of what he goes through internally no longer makes any sense. 

What we see him do in this show is he starts confused, uncertain about what's going on with Kazuhito. He has a realization about what's going on with Kazuhito, and they have the conversation about it. He has time to reflect on it and think about what his feelings are. He accepts his feelings. We see him realize that he likes Kazuhito, he wants to be with him. Then we see him hesitate about that, “Because I like you, it's actually really hard to tell you,” which is not how they've been communicating to date, but okay. And then he goes from that to concern about homophobia, which makes no sense to have as a thing to happen after you've already gone through acceptance and hesitation. And then it gets resolved. It was a confusing clusterfuck because it didn't make any sense, and the only reason why his arc happens that way is because they had those two filler episodes of his acceptance and hesitation in the middle that weren't in the manga. I did read it to figure out what the hell went wrong.

Ben

Twig, walk us through the experience you had reading the manga to get some clarity.

Twig

A lot of the things that I thought didn't necessarily work or I was confused by in the show, worked perfectly in the manga because of the order in which they happen and the lack of space between them. Natsukawa’s arc in the manga is, he reunites with Kazuhito, is confused by what's going on with Kazuhito, he has a realization and the conversation with Kazuhito about it. He's left to think about it. He immediately goes from that to his concerns about homophobia and then it's resolved. 

So all of the moments where he realizes he feels good with Kazuhito, he wants him in his life, he misses him when he's not there, those happen after the concern about homophobia. It made a complete difference. Things that I hated in the show worked perfectly well in the manga because they made sense in terms of an order of events and the emotional arcs that people went through. It was a really good illustration of understanding the overarching arc you're telling and not just the moments, because they kept all of the moments of the manga, they're all in the show, but by moving them around a little bit and adding so much in between them, it completely changed how they landed for the audience.

00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings

NiNi 

The show feels like it wanted to touch on a lot of things, but it also didn't want to touch on a lot of things, so we get some of Natsukawa’s arc regarding the way that he feels about having spent his teenage years looking after his sisters and some of the things that have come out of that. His family is a decently big part of the show. And there's some things there with his mom and how his mom may feel guilty and like she needs to make up for certain things. And then his sisters are still asking him for stuff even after he's moved out. They're still buggin’ him all the time. There's stuff in there that's swirling around, but it never really gets concretized. 

And then there's stuff around Kazuhito's mom that again, swirling around and never really gets concretized. And I just feel like the show wanted to do all of these things, but they weren't serious about any of them. And then they spend all this time in the middle, these two entire episodes, pulling in a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with any of this. 

Twig 

I wanna pick up what you said about the parents. The show spent time with both Kazuhito and Natsukawa’s moms. We Natsukawa’s mom clock immediately that there was something wrong with Natsukawa because he was making something deep fried, which is a sign that her son is going through it. And I thought that was a really beautiful way of showing that his mom understood him. And then we got the conversation with Kazuhito's mom when the comphet happens where Kazuhito's mom asks Natsukawa to let her know if Kazuhito meets anyone so that she can find out about his love life because he never tells her anything. 

And then the final episode, we get a moment with both moms where they clearly clock that something's going on with their sons and seem happy about it? And that was so unearned and made me so angry. Natsukawa’s mom at least seemed like she knew her son, but Kazuhito's mom was fully oblivious, and for her to get that moment of, “Oh good. My son is now happy with his boyfriend” to the point where—I took in these yukatas so that they can have this yukata moment—mmm, to bring that back. 

Ben 

There it is. Sorry, listeners, you won't get to count this show when you list them out. 

[all laugh]

Twig 

So they get these yukatas taken in so they can have them permanently. And nod to, “I know that you guys are gonna be a thing,” a quiet without having to say it aloud, “I'm cool with your relationship” and she makes an offhand comment that Kazuhito is so much happier now, like he was when he was younger, that indicates that she knows that Natsukawa is making a difference in Kazuhito’s life and she's happy about it. 

Where the hell was that energy when she was talking to him before, where did this come from? 

Ben 

You're right, man. After two episodes of angst in episode 6 and 7, they rushed the shit out of the resolution in episode 8. 

Twig 

This show had too little material to work with, was too cowardly to add very much at all. The little bit that they did add was not good, so maybe for the best that they [laughs] didn't try to do too much, but they wanted to keep the main beat in the same place, which meant that they shoved a bunch of filler in the middle that fucked up the entire emotional arc and then rushed the ending. They just shat the bed on it. The part that I was actually really interested in—which is, what is this relationship going to look like once it gets off the ground?—we didn't get any of that. 

Ben 

This show was good for like 30 percent of its run, tolerable for about 62 percent of its run. 

NiNi 

62 percent, that was so specific. 

Ben 

It’s what 5 divided by 8 is. [Twig laughs] It's just math.

NiNi 

Sir. Sir. Sir!

Ben 

Anyway, this is from the same team that brought us Old Fashion Cupcake, so we're trying to understand why the people who have made a five episode banger decided to take what should have been a five episode banger and make it an eight episode fart. 

Twig 

Talk that talk. 

Ben 

This show was so vacant. They clearly ran out of the great source material by the end of episode 3 and did not know what to do for the rest of the show. Spending this much time in one character having intense angst over another character not ending in a satisfying release of that tension is extremely disappointing. If Kazuhito was holding these feelings for 10 years, that perfunctory little dead fish kiss was so unsatisfying. I rebuke it. 

NiNi 

We shall not speak of it. 

Twig 

The one thing that did keep me going through that last episode were the performances specifically of Sato Ryuga and Sakai Sho. The performances in this show were good and I would like to see them in something else. 

Ben 

I would very much like them to try again. 

NiNi 

I absolutely agree, even through all the nonsense I think that the acting was solid and I would like to see these boys do something again. [sigh] I don't wanna talk about this show anymore. 

Ben

Let’s rate it!

NiNi

[laughs] Let's rate this sucker. 

Ben 

It's a 6. It's a 6. It was not exactly offensive, but this show made the egregious sin of being boring. How do you make a Japanese BL boring? That is the reign of Thailand, with its 50 to 100 fuckin’ minute episodes. 

[Twig laughs]

NiNi 

I'ma let you cook. For now. 

Twig 

The worst part about it is it's so close to being so good. You can almost fix it just by watching 1-4 and then 8. 

NiNi

No.

Ben 

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

Twig

No?

Ben

[laughs] No. Absolutely not. 

Twig 

Ha! [Twig laughs]

NiNi

I would be right there with you normally, but 8 is not good. 

Ben 

I love you, Twig. [laugh] I will be back-to-back with you against anyone in this fandom. But I can't be with you on this, sis. Episode 8 fucking sucked because it doesn't complete either character’s actual character arc! Mm-mm.

NiNi 

It doesn't pick up on the stuff that was going on up to episode 5, and then it also doesn't pick up on the stuff that they were doing in 6 and 7. So it doesn't follow either of the arcs that they were going with. 

Twig 

This is my point. You have to cut out all the shit it didn't pick up on [laughs] and then it's fine. 

Ben 

[laughs] You're gonna make it the five episode BL it should have been.

Twig

That’s what I’m saying! 

NiNi 

No. I'm sorry, even if you wanted to do that, I'm sorry, those lame ass kisses at the end? Forget about it. 

Ben 

NiNi! Rating. 

NiNi 

It was a 7 until this conversation, now it's a 6. 

Ben 

Twig-tea! 

Twig 

Yeah, I'm with you all, it’s a 6. 

Ben 

It's a 6 from The Conversation. 

00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

Ben 

Both of these shows got less than a 7 from The Conversation, and the conversation about them is different. Love is Better the Second Time Around was actually so fucking good for the bulk of its run and then clearly jettisoned to go be something else instead. With Living With Him, it's very clear that they didn't know what to do with the amount of runtime they had. You can see this show falling apart in real time. This show was not it and it should have been. The potential was sky high and the show really let me down. It went from being a 10 to a 6. That is a terrifying fall. I don't think I've ever had such a turn with a show in my experience in BL. 

NiNi 

So, the thing about these two shows, why we ended up placing them together, aside from the fact that they started strong and flopped. The flop happened for both of these shows in trying to go for a flashback. Trying to go to time prior to the show to tell us… what, exactly? And I think that's the thing that really I'm taking away from this. If you're gonna do a flashback in a story, the flashback has to give you something, it has to mean something, it has to illuminate something. And for both of these shows, I do not feel illuminated by the flashback. I didn't feel like the flashback gave me either new information narratively or new information thematically and emotionally. I just feel like the flashbacks were there because they wanted to flash back to a different time for whatever reason, but there's no real reason in either of these stories for the flashback to exist. 

Ben 

It's because they're making the mistake of not recognizing what western M/M romance understands, that if you're going to break the characters up in a meaningful way, do it at the 60% mark. 

Twig 

I want to pick up what NiNi said, too. The flashback has to accomplish something and we should learn something from it, but also the character should have learned something since, and it should set us up for them to move their arcs forward in a way that makes sense from what we had before the flashback. 

NiNi 

Absolutely, yes. 

Twig 

In both of these cases, the flashback did not fill in the information to allow us to follow that character arc in any way that was meaningful or satisfying. 

Ben 

I'm not always keen on flashbacks in romance. I gotta be honest. The problem with romance flashbacks a lot of the time is, unless you're contextualizing something that the audience has picked up on the whole time, you're just retconning your show. 

Twig 

Yeah, I agree. For the most part. I think sometimes shows seem like their goal is to trick the audience and that most of the time should not be your goal except in very specific genre circumstances. Most of the time, your audience should be able to at least anticipate sort of what's coming-ish and be excited about it. The how and the why is the part that's interesting, not the, “Oh, you did something that you didn't tell me you were doing for the last however many hours of my life.” It shouldn't be a surprise. 

NiNi 

For me, that's not entirely it. I have enjoyed before a midstream flashback that tells me something brand new that I have to go back to the beginning and be like, “Oh a twist!” Like, I've enjoyed a twist flashback before. It's not even a question of that. It's a question of, the flashback has to have a purpose. It has to have a reason, it has to give me something, sooomething that I did not already know. Like I said, whether that's narrative, whether that's thematic or emotional, but it has to illuminate something new for me. It has to have a reason for being there. And I just feel in both of these cases the flashback had no reason for being there. 

That said, I have enjoyed this episode. For many reasons. 

Ben 

It's because we dunked on Japan. That's it. [NiNi laughs] That's it. 

NiNi 

You can't even let me have the fun of saying it. 

Ben 

No, no, no. You don't get to have it. ‘Cause I love Japanese BL. This dunking is me trying to grab them by the shoulders, like James T Kirk grabbing people by the shoulders, and being like, “What are you doing? I need you to get it together. [laughs] 

NiNi 

I am enjoying this episode because sometimes I do feel sort of alone in my little “Eh, I'm not entirely feeling it” bubble on some of these Japanese shows, so it's nice to have company for a change, is what I was saying. I was not trying to shade you. 

Ben 

Here's the thing, let's unpack this. Japanese BL works for me the most often because their romance stories often track for something very specifically queer about them. All the Japanese BL that I constantly bring up on this show has romantic angst that also taps into my very specific concern as a queer critic. And that's particularly why I get frustrated when these shows fuck it up. 

As Twig pointed out, Living With Him introduces a compulsory heterosexuality moment after the character has made the big emotional turn and recognized that he does want to remain close to his friend after he learns an important queer detail about him. That is a huge queer fuck up! The big fuck up with Love is Better the Second Time Around is, these guys went through the task of getting back together and trying to be open with each other and being vulnerable and kind of embarrassing with each other. When the homophobia rears its head again and is gonna separate them, the show does not reward us or the characters for the growth that they've been trying to achieve by letting them have that moment together to become a battle couple. 

That's the real problem with it, ‘cause, like, in a normal fucking heterosexual romance, who gives a shit if the straights are gonna stay together? The whole world is going to help them stay together if they want to, or let them divorce if they don't. We're the only ones who're going to give a shit about each other when the boots come marching again. And so when I'm watching BL, I'm watching from the queer part, and when these shows fuck up on the queer part is when I turn against them so aggressively. That's why you’ve seen Japan not even catch strays this time. I'm sniping at them for these shows because this is not correct. [NiNi laughs]

This is the true fuck up. This is the crux of my disappointment here. They fucked up on the queer front, not on the romance part. I can take it or leave it on the romance part. Writing romance is not as easy as people think it is. People fuck that shit up all the time. But if you can do something that feels queer in a way that feels truly correct to me, I'll be very forgiving about some romance missteps. But both of these shows fucked up on the queer part of their romance arcs and I do not forgive that. 

Twig 

After they were doing so well, that's the part that hurts. They started getting the queer part so right and then got it so wrong. 

Ben 

I truly get you, why you don't always vibe with these shows, NiNi, because they're not always satisfying in that way as romance stories. I totally get you on that. But what always works for me in the shows that I want to advocate for when we get together is that these shows have a real kernel of queer truth that is worth connecting to and worth advocating for for people who want to engage with queer stories. It's why you and I were able to bond so strongly over I Told Sunset About You, I Promised You the Moon, and Bad Buddy. Those shows are satisfying romantically and also as queer cinema. The shows that we both love the most on here are very good at both of those things. But the queer part of their storytelling is non-negotiable for me in a genre about boys kissing each other. 

NiNi 

I hear you. I'm with you. This episode is gonna air right at the end of June. I think this is a great way— 

Ben 

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

NiNi

—for us to—

Ben

Oh yeah.

NiNi

—end Pride month. 

Ben 

Happy pride, bitches!

[Ben and NiNi laugh] 

NiNi 

Because it is important to remember that among everything else, amongst all the love and romance in this genre, that this genre is a queer genre and the queerness matters. 

Ben 

Any final thoughts you'd like to share with the audience, Twig-tea? 

Twig 

I don't have anything to add. That was right. Correct! That's what I have to say to that. 

NiNi 

That is going to wrap us up on Second Rate Second Chance! Twig, thank you so much for being with us. 

Twig 

Thank you for having me. 

NiNi 

We will see you guys next time. Until then, we out. Say bye to the people, Twig. 

Twig 

Dispatch! 

Ben 

Dispatch! 

NiNi 

[laughs] Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace. 

[yes-i-am-happyaspie]

Stucky-sicle

[youchangedmedestiel]

If you haven't read it already:

Here's the first chapter of my Destiel AU fic! And here's the photo that goes with it (there'll be one for each chapter because I'm that insane and it's a great way for people who don't have the chance to do so to travel):

Also just to let you know, I'll post the next chapter tomorrow.

[pernillecfcw]

Summer series ends on a high 🤩

[mindenerwa]

your new favourite duo 💫

[nier-reincarnation-library]

Dimos

[pardonzo-bean]

These books were terrible and yet I could not stop reading them.

I’m ready to start obsessively watching the Prime series now.

[maximof]

baby's first premier league game feat. my group of not sports inclined friends repping afc richmond and me repping gay icon colin hughes 🏳️‍🌈✨

[hurtpeoplex2]

every x-men media ever

episode one

episode two

episode three

episode four

episode five

episode six

episode seven

episode eight

[sweetsweetjellybean]

I'm dying. What's more perfect for summer than a new romance. The imagery was well written. I swear I could smell the new green of the leaves hanging in the humid air.

⬆️Did you have to write him this hot? Really? It should be illegal. He's all I'm gonna think about.

⬆️😵‍💫Steve's hands....Touching our hands....😵‍💫

⬆️ This is what I like to see. So adorably awkward, how can he not fall in love with us immediately?

This whole thing was a breath of hot summer air. I can't wait for these weekly vinegettes to see how this love affair unfolds.

Ps loved the post it!!! Nice touch.

All I Really Want Is You

older!neighbor!widower! steve x fem!reader chap one/ten - a slow burn series of blurbs - updated every wednesday

Welcome To The Neighborhood

summary: There’s a Bandit on the loose.

wc: 3.6k

warnings: 18+ series for eventual smut, 12 year age gap, reader is 30 and Steve is 42 otherwise none for this first installment :) it’s a meet cute baby.

author’s note: Here it is! chapter one of this little slow burn series with your painfully hot and confusing older!neighbor!widower!steve. This story will take place over the course of one summer, told in mostly blurbs of your chance encounters and run in’s with Steve. This series will have lots of pining, flirting, mild angst and eventual smut. Most chapters will range from 1-2k each except for a few. I hope you guys like reading about these two as much as I liked writing it & I hope to see you back next Wednesday! 🥹♥️

Series Masterlist // Playlist // The tune:

End of May —

Highways and state lines blur together like the buzzing of cicadas into busy Chicago streets. A fresh start. A new life. No plan - that was the promise you made to yourself ten years ago almost down to the date.

The excitement outweighs the embarrassment of how long it takes you to parallel park the Uhaul when you find that one in a million spot in front of your new home. Your hands are numb from the constant battle between the wind and your steering wheel. The breeze from the lake testing your strength for the last hour of your drive. The machine creaks loudly when you slam it into park, your legs wobbling like jello when your converse hit the pavement and out of your truck.

The city hits your ears like the humidity on your skin. The exposed parts of your thighs stick together when the thick air wraps around you like an unwanted blanket. Taking a deep breath, exhaust stings your lungs. Far away from the only place you’d ever known, it’s comforting the feeling that washes over you. You didn’t come here with an agenda. A fresh start with nothing to lose. You came here just to be you.

It seems like everyone is on their way to do something, going somewhere they have to be. They brush past you without even a glance in your direction, air pods buried deep in their ears caught up in their own little world. The sounds of dogs barking mingle with cars honking and loud conversations from patio bars the next block over. The city is alive with summer hanging fresh in the air.

The trees that line both sides of your street are lush and green from the moisture. They drape over phone lines, weeping under the heat of the sun. Bumper to bumper cars from all kinds of walks of life make the one way street even smaller. Mini gardens in front of mismatched houses only inches apart. This was your new home.

The three story townhouse is covered in dark green wooden paneling, the floors split up into separate apartments, and you managed to bag the top floor with protruding bay windows. Dumb luck mixed with being on craigslist minutes after they posted, you found the one mom and pop place in the city that fit your budget.

The chipped black metal gate that blocks off the front steps lands at your waist, and runs as a property line against an even nicer house next to yours. One that looks like it belongs to someone, not rented out to a bunch of someones. The bright red brick looks new, and the dark wood steps and patio freshly stained. An oriental rug that matches the house has chew toys with missing limbs littering the front entrance. A porch swing faces you and it sways gently with the wind. Your eyes catch the silhouette of someone on the other side of the stained glass in the middle of the thick mahogany door, and it reminds you to stop being so nosy.

Keys dangling in your hand, you take your first steps through the gate. The metal groans loudly before slamming closed behind you. You jog up the less polished, salt worn steps to your front door and the faint sound of a deep voice catches your ears from next door as you jiggle the lock open. Crossing through the threshold of the entryway you’re not surprised when there’s no reprieve to the heat, but disappointed just the same as you pull at our tank top that starts clinging to your skin. You eye the narrow staircase that curves up leading to your apartment, immediately regretting doing this alone. 

It takes you less time to unload than it did to load up, at least that's what you tell yourself as you round to the back of the open trailer. Sweat is slick against your skin and you thank yourself for keeping the previous owner's couch even if you thought it was an ugly shade of green.You stare pointedly at the four heaviest boxes left and you swear they mock you while you try to catch your breath from pushing your mattress to your room. The words ‘winter clothes’ scribbled sloppily in bright red marker make your face twist up.

“God dammit,”you breathe out running the back of your hand across your forehead trying to rally. Your A/C was already in the window and the cool air inside becomes your motivation.

You aren’t expecting the abrupt shove forward or the feeling of paws on your butt, sharp nails digging into the soft material of your shorts. Then you hear it, his voice.

“Bandit! Bandit - no! Down!”

Your hands hit the metal of the trailer stopping your fall under the weight of what you’re now realizing is an over excited fully grown German Shepherd. Pink tongue out with spit flying everywhere, you can’t help the laugh that bubbles out of you when you turn around and he starts sniffing all over with a tail that wags a mile a minute. High pitched whines leave him when he realizes how much he wants you to play, but he accepts the scratches you offer behind his ears just the same. Body wiggling while also trying to stay still.

“Hi buddy!” you coo, your voice instantly slipping into the embarrassing one you only use for animals.

That’s when you see him. 

He has a few years on you, that part is obvious with the pepper that spots the sides of his honey colored hair and the scruff that lines his sharp jaw, but it only makes him look better. His broad shoulders are wrapped up tight in a white undershirt, the thick cotton telling you it was the kind that cost more than your phone bill. The black shorts he wears have a hem high enough to almost be inappropriate when you swear you see the outline of what’s underneath. The Nike swoosh near the slit at the top of his hairy thighs. His shoes match the color of his shorts, the On Cloud symbol etched on the side flashes in the light. Two hundred dollars on just his feet. 

The trained muscles in his arm flex when he runs a hand through his hair, catching the stray that flops over his forehead when he comes to a halt in front of you. The bright red leash clutched in his fist matches the color of his cheeks. Big hazel eyes meet yours after lingering on your curves a little too long, making you realize you’re showing off just as much skin as him. Clearing your throat, you tug at the bottom of your yoga shorts, willing them to grow just an inch longer with cheeks burning and not because of the sun.

“Sorry, I have a bad habit of getting him excited before I leash him up. I swear he’s friendly, are you okay? He didn’t scratch you or anything right?” 

You’re too distracted by his hands to comprehend his words, tendons moving under taut skin as he hooks Bandit’s hardness. The heat, the move, and the man all getting the best of you.

“Hey -“

His voice brings you back to reality, his brows furrowing over perfect features when he looks at you with genuine concern.

“Yes! Sorry, I’m fine. Honestly! I love dogs. The move in the heat, I think, I think it’s just getting to me.” You smile doing your best to calm the worried look on his face, and you swear you see him flush deeper because of it.

It’s his turn to clear his throat, left hand flexing like he’s looking for a ring that isn’t there. The skin is a lighter shade than the rest of him like there used to be. There’s a beat and an awkward silence before he finally notices the mostly empty trailer behind you. 

“Looks like you’re almost done though, top floor?” He questions rocking on his heels a little, pointing over his shoulder to your window. Your A/C is already dripping water onto the pavement.

“Yeah! You live in the building?”  Please say yes.

“Me? No.” He coughs a little uncomfortable, while you fight to stop the disappointment from showing on your face. “I umm, I actually live next door.” He winces, almost like he’s embarrassed.

“Anyway, sorry about Bandit. Your boyfriend is probably wondering where you’re at.” You don’t miss the way he assumes with a secret hope he’s wrong hidden behind the mossy greens of his eyes. 

“Probably,” you pause, ego boosting when you see him squirm, “If I had one.” You giggle and you hate the way your hips twist a little. 

That’s when he does it, he smiles, with all of his teeth. It’s just as blinding as it is contagious, and it makes your skin tingle, giddiness dripping from your limbs. It’s short lived though, like pieces of a puzzle clicking together you watch it disappear. It’s replaced by the same concern from before only with a new layer of disbelief.

“Wait, honey, who’s helping you move in then?” He looks at you stunned like he can’t fathom the answer he knows you're gonna give.

“The same person that drove here - me.” You grin a little proud with your chin pushed up and it makes his lips twitch, the same smile from before itching to come back.

“Let me at least help with these last few.” He peeks behind you, eyes scanning over your messy writing, “They look like they might be heavy.” 

He teases you just enough to earn a roll of your eyes, but the grin on your face makes him huff out a relieved laugh. Nerves like a first date twist in his gut when he sees the way you look at him from under your lashes.

“I mean, if you insist…?” you trail off, fishing for his name. 

“Steve, sorry! It's Steve, Steve Harrington.” He runs one of his big hands through his hair again, a nervous tell of his you pick up on instantly, before offering it out for you to take.

“I don’t think I caught that, can you repeat your name one more time for me?” Biting your lip into a smile, he narrows his eyes playfully, cheeks blooming, flustered from your words.

Sliding your hand into his, it disappears completely when he wraps his fingers around yours. The softness of his palm is warm like the sun that beat down on you all day and it sends electric currents running through your veins, heart thumping loudly in your chest and you wonder if he can hear the way he can hear it. Minutes pass before either of you make the first move to let go, or at least that’s what it feels like. It’s not until Bandit whines at your feet that Steve finally caves.

“Let me go put him back inside real quick, it’s still a little too hot out anyway and I’ll help you bring the last of this up, tough girl.” He winks with the kind of casualness that makes you question whether you saw it at all and you have to hold in the sigh that begs to slip past your lips.

“I’ll be waiting,” your voice cracks, your confidence slowly disappearing like the sun behind the hazed skyline. 

You try to cover it up by swooping down to give Bandit a kiss between the eyes. Only it backfires, making it worse when you realize how weirdly personal that was to do to someone else’s dog, despite the more than pleased wag of his tail.

“That - that was, oh god. I don’t know why I kissed your dog like I knew him. Or you. I’m - I’m sorry.”  You pinch the bridge of your nose, embarrassment rolling off of you in waves.

It’s not until you hear his laugh, and god is it pretty too, that you finally look up.

“It’s understandable, he’s a handsome guy.” Steve smirks with flirty eyes and it makes you dizzy. 

You can’t stop your giggle, the back of your hand doing little to hide your smile from him. Butterflies breaking from cocoons in your stomach as you watch him walk away to that big house right next to yours.

“What exactly do you have in these boxes?” Steve grunts as he follows you up the narrow staircase with two in tow despite your multiple warnings. 

“Winter coats, sweaters, maybe some boots...” you trail off trying to think, your disorganization more than evident when you open up your front door to even more boxes and bags spread out in disarray.

“You packed your coats and your boots in the same box?” His voice is muffled behind cardboard as the cool air hits, sending goosebumps across sweat-kissed skin. The low hum does something to dull your nerves when you work up the courage to turn around and finally face him. 

“Maybe! Who knows, I’ll find out tonight when I open it.”  

He huffs out a breathy laugh as his broad shoulders almost brush the sides of your door frame. Stepping one expensive sneaker in front of the other into your more than humble apartment, there’s a fleeting moment of regret about taking him up on his offer when your eyes dart around the mess. 

“Where am I puttin’ this boss?” His eyes meet yours from around the side of the boxes, playfulness filling the greens and browns like before.

The muscles in his arm flex when he re-establishes his hold on the box, the sleeves of his shirt getting tighter and the whites of his knuckles start to show. The simple brown leather band of his watch strains, and it makes your throat dry up.

“Ummm.” You shake your head, willing your brain to regain its normal function as you start a clumsy walk towards the direction of your bedroom. “We can put them in my -“

Your shoe hits something hard and you don’t have enough time to realize what’s happening until you're already on the ground. Palms flat against the scratched wooden floor and a sharp pain in your ankle. The culprit, an already half opened box labeled KITCHEN you must’ve left in the hallway when you got distracted by something else.

“Jesus, are you okay?” Steve sets the boxes down, pushing them against the wall and out of the way raking his hand through his hair again, it must be a stressed habit too. 

“Yeah, yeah, my ego is a little bruised but I think I’m gonna survive.” You try to smile, but only end up wincing when you go to push yourself up.

“Here, let's get you on the couch, let me take a look.” He doesn’t wait for your reply, both of his hands coming out to you in an offering. Stubbornness losing for once, you take them.  

He lifts you up like you’re weightless, moving you around with ease as he tucks you into his side. His fingers wrap around the curve of your hip to steady you. He’s warm, the pine of his body wash mixing with the spice of his cologne and it surrounds you in a strong hold. It's a short trip to your couch, his abs moving with each step, and you secretly wish it took just a little longer. 

He’s gentle when he untangles himself from you. Soft palms on your elbows to hold your balance as you sit down. There’s a hint of his aftershave that hits your nose as your muscles melt into the softness of the cushions, the day quickly catching up to you. Eyelids going droopy.

“Sitting was a mistake Steve,” you groan with a light stretch of your limbs, and another subtle wince.

“Well good thing you conned me into helping you with the last of your boxes then.” He waits a second before meeting your eyes as he pulls one of your many boxes over to sit on, his lips twisting up when he sees the way you scoff. 

“Conned you?! You practically begged me to let you help.” Your head bobs with attitude dripping from each word and it makes him grin. He nods furrowing his brows like he’s hearing you, but despite the limited time you’ve spent with him you knew whatever he was about to say was just going to egg you on more.

“I mean, if that’s what you need to tell yourself sweetheart. I remember it a little differently.” He can’t hold in his laugh when you roll your eyes hard at him trying to ignore the newest nickname.

His knees brush against yours when he finally takes his seat, the hem of his shorts rising higher, running tight against the muscle of his thigh. The cinnamon hair that covers his legs tickles you while the sun hits your bay window with just the right light to reveal an expanse of freckles and moles you didn’t see before under his five o’clock shadow and across the bridge of his nose. God, he’s handsome. 

His eyes catch yours like he can hear your thoughts, and for a moment you wonder if he actually can.

“Do you mind?” The teasing edge is gone, his eyes a little more soft when the tips of his fingers tap against your leg.

Your voice is lost in the shift in energy, static filling in the air between you when you shake your head ‘no’.’’ His touch is feather light when his fingers wrap gingerly around your ankle bringing your foot to his lap. He makes quick work of your laces, using extra care when he pulls off your shoe. The pad of his thumb rubs over the bruising bone and you notice the way he licks his lips.

“Does this hurt?” He applies a little bit of pressure to the spot just below your calf, his gaze making you nervous as he gauges your reactions.

“No,” it comes out a little breathless and he exhales deep through his nose because of it.

“How about here?” He does the same thing as before, only this time closer to your heel and you wince. “There it is,” he hums to himself, rubbing soothing circles as an apology.

“Like on a pain scale of one to ten, I’d give it a three and a half or four” you tell him, when really you’re too proud to admit it’s actually a five.

“Three and a half? You can’t use that. Solid number only,” he scoffs meeting your eyes from under his lashes, the forest inside them turning black.

“I actually think I can do whatever I want,” you laugh incredulously, your toes wiggling under black socks in his lap.

“I guess it is your house, I stand corrected.” Steve admits defeat with an exaggerated sigh before showing you his teeth in a wide grin, his thumb still rubbing circles because it never actually stopped. “Do you have an ice pack?” 

Your finger drums against your bottom lip as you think about everything you had packed, his eyes fixated on the way you lightly pull it down with each tap.

“I don’t remember and if I’m being completely honest I don’t think so.” You look sheepish when you admit your lack of first aid supplies to him.

He chuckles lightly, hot breath fanning against your skin with a shake of his head.

“I think I have one, I’ll grab it and bring those other two boxes up. Keep your foot elevated for me tonight tough girl. Unpack your chaos tomorrow.” He mocks the way your jaw drops at his teasing.

“If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were tryin’ to take care of me Steve.” The joke is innocent, at least that’s what you thought. 

Something clicks behind his eyes, the warmth draining from his smile when it falls. His brows furrow and he won’t look at you anymore, his thumb stops rubbing those circles, and your foot is placed gently back on the ground. He’s standing up faster than you can catch your breath, faster than you can comprehend.  The energy shifts to something distant and the warm summer is replaced with frigid winter. He clears his throat with glassy eyes scratching the back of his neck, and you have no idea what you did.

“Hey I’m sorry if I -“

He cuts you off before you can finish.

“You didn’t do anything, It’s me - look, I’m just gonna go get those things. I’ll leave it at your door, please just elevate your foot. You should be okay by tomorrow.” He doesn’t let you respond, long legs taking him out of your place and leaving you to wonder what you did wrong. 

Your head lulls against the back of the couch, staring fixated on the old popcorn ceiling of your living room for what feels like twenty minutes as you replay everything back. Over analyzing his tones and body language coming up empty every time. This was going to drive you crazy.

There’s three raps on your front door, one coming down hard followed by two quick knocks. When you stand up this time, it hurts less, more true to the pain level you gave him as you slightly hobble to answer.

When you open it, your two boxes are stacked where he promised. A dark blue ice pack with a yellow sticky note that says:

beta’d by @superblysubpar 💕 (also made the cute post it for me 🥹)

dividers by @newlips 💗

[the-conversation-pod]

Going High-Low with Taiwan

And we're back! It’s been awhile since we checked in on Taiwan, and the latest offerings have really run the gamut in terms of quality. Ben, NiNi, and Shan sat down to discuss the state of Taiwanese BL via two recent shows, Anti Reset and Unknown.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL 00:13:13 - Unknown the Series 00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope 00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative 00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble 00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel 00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back! This week we will be discussing the state of Taiwanese BL by highlighting two projects that recently finished for us. 

NiNi 

Shan is here with us. Say hi, Shan. 

Shan 

Hello people! 

NiNi 

Shan has to be here because y'all know I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL. [laughs]

Shan 

And I watch it all. 

Ben 

We're going to be talking about the sci-fi BL Anti Reset and we're going to be talking about the Priest adaptation Unknown the series, based on Priest’s novel Da Ge. 

NiNi 

I am unfamiliar with Anti Reset. I did not watch it. 

Ben 

NiNi: it's a Taiwanese BL. I don't like it! [Shan laughs] I didn't watch it. 

NiNi 

I did watch Unknown and I have thoughts about that. 

00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL

NiNi 

Maybe Shan, you could dig in here before we let Ben get into the recap on Anti Reset. 

Shan 

Anti Reset is part of a recent series of Taiwanese BLs that came from a company called VBL. Stay By My Side, You Are Mine, VIP Only, and then Anti Reset. This was a connected series, all these stories happened in the same universe. The characters did cameos in each other's shows and they all aired in the same time slot one right after the other, over the last several months. 

I was not particularly impressed with the quality of these shows and I thought that as the series went on, each show got a little bit worse. [laughs] By the time I was in VIP Only I had really lost interest in what these shows were doing. The stories were weak, the production values were low, they weren't really hitting the usual Taiwanese high watermarks for great casting, good couple chemistry, solid intimacy scenes… The things you can normally reliably count on Taiwan for, were not really showing up in these shows. 

So I was, had kind of already lost my faith in this series when Anti Reset started. I think I got two episodes into it and I just decided to just stop watching. It was givin’ me a weird vibe. I was like, “You know what? I don't know what this show is doing and I don't think I wanna find out.” 

That's where I think I should hand it off to Ben to talk more about what the show actually ended up doing.

Ben 

Oh, man. Trying to describe the premise of this show inherently gives it more credit than it deserves. [Shan and Ben laugh] The premise of the show is that Chu Yi Ping is some sort of humanities professor at a local college. His arm gets injured from pulling his shoulder and his uncle, who runs a experimental tech company, decides that to give him some assistance while he's recovering, they're going to send an experimental house assistant android to his house, which appears in the shape of a really hot guy named Ever 9. 

The show wants to go on to be this exploration about how misanthropy presents in people. How do you find humanity in artificial intelligences that are designed to befriend us? It wants to do this exploration of personhood—I don't think it does—and ends up fundamentally becoming a mail-order bride show that doesn't realize it is one. This show thinks it's doing deep analysis of AI personhood and romance, but it's not. It's just presenting things. It is kind of a mess and I ended up really not liking it. 

NiNi 

I'm a big sci-fi girl. I like these kinds of explorations of the human condition. It's what all the best sci-fi is about. So, basically what you're telling me is don't watch the show. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben, I feel like when I was observing discourse about this show, it did seem like it was working for some people, and I'm curious if you have thoughts about what parts of the show maybe did work better than others. 

Ben 

I think that if you found the leads attractive and you enjoyed the chemistry that the leads were going for—ignoring literally any of the context about what was going on around their interactions—you could enjoy that. But I don't think the show does a great job of addressing its own context. 

You've got this android living in your house who is doing your house chores and making your food for you, and otherwise taking care of you. So you basically have purchased a housewife. But then he decides he's in love with the housewife and wants to pursue the concept that the android has a personality and is capable of reciprocating his feelings and such. But they don't do a good job creating this crossover point where Ever 9 cares about Chu Yi Ping because of who Ever 9 is and not because of what Ever 9 was programmed to be. 

The issue, too, with Chu Yi Ping is he's got this fundamental misanthropy that isn't really addressed or challenged. What is it about Ever 9 that allows him to not hate him the way he hates other people? The fact that Ever 9 is programmed to put up with all of his shit all the time? That's kinda weird, particularly because they went for a multi-year separation at the end, and I'm like, he didn't grow from this. He's just a sad little weirdo the whole time. 

Shan 

They did a multi-year separation between… a man and a robot? 

Ben 

They did. 

NiNi 

I was about to say— [all laugh]

Shan

I mean! I’m like, what? But, like—, Did—, How—, But—, I—

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I have another related question. 

Ben 

Please, go on. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

This is not a story about an AI achieving self-awareness or sentience or crossing the human-digital divide in some way. 

Ben 

It wants to be that. It really wants to be a story about Ever 9 exceeding his programming. They very much think there's, like, a Pinocchio thing going on with him. 

Shan 

He's still a robot. 

NiNi 

Even Pinocchio turned into a real boy at the end. 

Shan

Right, this is what I don't understand. 

NiNi 

So what is the point, then? If nothing actually changes about Ever 9. 

Ben 

This is one of the fundamental questions I've been asking about BL lately. [all laugh] And here we are again. 

Shan 

What is the point? [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the thing that people don't get about sci-fi a lot. Sci-fi is more philosophy than science. It's a lot more about humanity and the things that humanity does to each other and how humanity evolves than it is about the cool things that the science can do. And whenever I see sci-fi that does not understand that, you can tell. 

Shan 

I think—and I wonder how you feel about this, Ben—one of the tension points here may be trying to take a narrative like this and turn it into a straightforward romance between a person and an object. When I've seen stories with this conceit done well, the romance is maybe not the primary point, and it's more about, like NiNi is saying, the philosophical questions underpinning it. I think about something like Lars and the Real Girl, which is more about the nature of loneliness and the nature of grief and how a community can come together to support somebody in finding a way to be happy. But it's not about the actual romance between the person and the thing. It feels like maybe what's difficult here is they want to examine those things, but at the same time they just want this to be a standard BL where they're just executing romance tropes. Those things don't go together that well. 

Ben 

I agree. I feel like Chu Yi Ping’s misanthropy and disconnectedness from other people should have been the crux of the storytelling, and they were more focused on making the android say hyung and oppa instead. 

NiNi 

For me, if you're gonna do a robot story like this, maybe you actually put somebody else into the story who the main character then falls in love with. The main character is able to interact with the robot to actually, themselves, become a real boy. But somebody in the story has to become a real boy! [laughs] That's the whole—you know what I mean?

Shan 

There's a kdrama that I really love called I'm Not a Robot. And that is pretty much how they handled that. There's a robot, there's a real girl. And in the end, the romance is with the real girl, not the robot. [laughs] 

It just feels like they tried to do that sort of story, but also somehow make the robot the main person without having them actually achieve personhood, and that just doesn't really work. 

NiNi 

It's either that or take it dystopian. Take it in the opposite direction. But then I guess that's not a BL. 

Shan 

Right. So you can also take it in the real fucked up direction, but yeah, you have to commit and it sounds like they just tried to do it all in some kind of weird blend that didn't come together. 

NiNi 

So, I'm guessing this one's a chop, Ben. 

Ben 

Oh, it's 100% a chop. I think I ended up giving it a 5? This is a show that I do not recommend at all. If you just want to see pretty decently attractive Taiwanese actors kind of moon at each other a little bit and make out a little bit, by all means! Go in and have a great time. But that's what you're getting out of it, at most. It's not good sci-fi, and I don't like it. At all. 

Shan 

I'm feeling happy with my choices. I'm gonna not return and finish this one. I think I'm gonna let it lie. It sounds like it was the right choice to not finish it for me. 

Ben 

What did we get out of the VBL project? My only positive takeaway from it is, I'm really glad that they got some money together to continue making small budget Taiwanese BL. I don't want small budget Taiwanese BL to give up, but also, these were not the best offerings that we've gotten out of that. 

Shan 

They need some better scripts. 

Ben 

We gotta do better. I really did not want to be super harsh about VBL and a bunch of their projects but, they're kind of really frustrating in a lot of ways. Stay By My Side ends abruptly. You Are Mine does not do the boss-employee romance any real justice. VIP Only ended up being kinda boring and wasn't really satisfying in its conclusion. And this one just really did not understand the expectations of sci-fi storytelling.

When we looked at the descriptions of all these shows ahead of time, we were like, there's a lot of ways that they could fuck this up royally, but these would actually be pretty good, or at least interesting and compelling in some ways. But they weren't. There's some sort epilogue episode or some shit they're gonna be releasing?

Shan 

A little special to try to sell merch, I think. 

NiNi 

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

Shan

Yeaaaaah. 

Ben 

Not impressed, and we are moving on. 

NiNi 

You're not even gonna rate it? 

Ben 

Oh, I gave it a 5. 

NiNi 

5 for Anti Reset from The Conversation. 

Ben 

And the 5 is, the leads were actually pretty solid with each other. 

NiNi 

Wow, that is damning with the faintest of praise. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

It's not good, y’all. 

00:13:13 - Unknown the Series

NiNi

Let's leave that behind and move on to something that all of us actually watched and I think liked a little bit more. Moving on to Unknown the series. 

Ben, give us the rundown, what is Unknown the series about?

Ben

Unknown is a found family narrative that has to deal with the way these relationships change as people grow up. This brother and sister end up deciding to adopt a homeless kid who's in their neighborhood. Wei Qian is like a high schooler trying to take care of his little sister ‘cause their parents are dead, and they decide to also take care of this kid, Xiao Yuan. Xiao Yuan is appreciative of this and is glad to become a brother to this family. But as he grows and matures, he ends up developing deep affection for Wei Qian, and we spend the bulk of the story dealing with Xiao Yuan struggling with his feelings for Wei Qian, and how this impacts the community around them. 

Beyond the three siblings, we have their neighbor San Pang, whose family has opted to never raise the rent on the Wei siblings to make sure that they have a place to stay. Wei Qian spends much of his adolescence when he's not in school working for the local gang: complications ensue as a result of this. 

Shan, further thoughts?

Shan

Really, at its heart, this is a relationship change narrative. So, it's all about how this family decide to take each other as family and then as they grow up, some of the relationships start to shift and change, not only between Wei Qian and Wei Yuan, but also between Wei Li Li and San Pang. Wei Qian really takes his responsibilities as the older brother—but also the default patriarch of this family—very seriously. He is a caretaker, he is the person providing financially for the family. San Pang is his best friend, someone who's known him his whole life, who completely understands his devotion to his siblings and also loves them, as well, as an older brother figure. 

There are some other characters in the mix. Qian and San Pang end up going into business with a third partner, named Lao Xiong. There's also the local gang—the lead gangster is called Le—and then there's Doctor Lin, played by our beloved Sam Lin, who's also in the mix as a side character who comes in and out of the story. 

I don't know, NiNi, if you wanted to add anything about your overall impressions of what the story is tackling, the themes.

NiNi

I came into this one later than you guys did, so I was catching up on kind of a binge. And also the rhythms of Taiwanese BL and Taiwanese drama are a little harder for me, so it takes me a while to get into things emotionally. So I was doing a little bit of an uphill climb? I understood where the story was going and what they were trying to do. I didn't all the way feel it? There were points that I would hit, definitely a point at the end or near the end that I felt it, but going through the pockets of the story as it was happening, I didn't get the depth of feeling about this that I would get about a story. That's not necessarily to do with it being a Taiwanese story, ‘cause there's Taiwanese stories that I have that depth of feeling about. Just this one didn't hit me in the exact same way that I think it hit you guys.

Shan

I felt this story deeply. I was very emotionally connected to the characters, very, very invested in this story and really did love it. I have, unfortunately, some serious critiques [laughs] for the way that the story ended up, but really loved it along the way, was super invested. And part of that might come from my relative comfort with the tropes that were at play.

NiNi

It might be, because I'm an eldest sibling and I understand the feelings of responsibility and wanting to be somebody who takes care of your siblings and an example for them and to be strong for them and all of that. If there is any character that I really glommed onto, it was Wei Qian. But then what that left me with was a disconnect from some of his thought processes and actions later down in the story? There were things that I wanted to understand more that I didn't understand about the way that he was processing certain things. That's my thing. That's not a problem with the story, I think that's my reaction to the story.

Ben

I think in the early parts of the story I was really with everything that it was doing. I got Wei Qian’s whole deal fairly quickly. He's, like, 13 to 15 and his mom is dead. His dad is dead or not in the picture. And he's got a little sister that he has to take care of. And the neighbors are willing to help accommodate this but he's gotta get money some sort of way, so he ends up wrapped up with the local gang. I also got the way they would feel sympathy for another kid who's on the street struggling as well. I totally get them adopting someone else who seems like he's going through some shit the way they are too. 

I got the way Yuan’s thankfulness about being saved from the street and the way Wei Qian was willing to sacrifice himself for Yuan, and I totally get that turning into a kind of devotion that shifts over time, and mingles with his latent queerness. I was able to follow Yuan down that route. And I liked the way the show treated all of those developments really seriously. From Wei Qian having some sort of sexual related trauma and being really resistant to advances from women… And I also got the way that that sort of blew up in their faces when Yuan's feelings became known to them. 

I really enjoyed the early parts of the story. I think Ray Jiang directed this? Ray’s tendency to use longer shots of characters working in the space together worked really well for me here, and the actors had really good timing for me to get a strong sense of the dynamics between their characters. So I was really able to pull a lot of the expected emotional beats out of a lot of little things in this show early on.

00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope

Ben

I actually waited until like week six, I think, Shan, was when you told me it was time to start watching? I have deep qualms with the stepbrothers trope. I don't usually connect to it or enjoy it.

NiNi

I don't have an issue with the stepbrothers trope, but this didn't feel like stepbrothers to me. The relationship between Wei Qian and Yuan felt almost paternalistic, and that was, I think, deliberately something that Wei Qian did put that distance between them. I did not see how Wei Qian overcame that, he did it so deliberately and he reinforced it so deliberately over and over throughout the years, and I feel like the turn into romance didn't quite work for me?

Ben

Why do you think the stepbrothers taboo doesn't normally bother you the way it might for other people?

NiNi

It depends on how long they've been raised together. A lot of times when we're getting these stepbrothers trope stories, they're new stepbrothers or they haven't been stepbrothers for very long, or they were close to adults when their parents got together. And so it's… doesn't feel like a sibling relationship to me.

Ben

Shan, you've watched a lot of dramas.

Shan

Sure have.

Ben

What's your read of the stepbrother stuff?

Shan

I wanted to talk about accurate categorization here, because this is not actually a stepbrothers trope. The stepbrothers trope is very popular in yaoi manga, and consequently in BL. But Unknown is more, I think, accurately categorized as a pseudo incest story. And that goes beyond BL. That is actually quite popular [laughs] in Asian dramas more broadly, and also shows up quite a lot in het romance. And it's more about people who are coming together in some kind of family arrangement, and then the point of the trope is that the relationship changes over time and we follow that relationship change. 

There's this impression, I think, that people like it mostly because, “Ooh, it's so titillating. It's so taboo.” For folks who enjoy the pseudo incest trope—and I count myself one of them, I've watched a lot of these kinds of dramas—the appeal of it is that a relationship change narrative is really interesting. It's a lot of deep emotional stuff when you are talking about someone who's really important to you in one specific way, and then trying to transform that relationship to have them be important to you in a different way. That can feel really risky and really dangerous, to put at threat the relationship that you already have for the relationship that you now want. That is not a dynamic that is exclusive to the pseudo incest trope!

NiNi

It feels like an extension of friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly.

NiNi

A higher risk, higher degree of difficulty friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly right, NiNi. I also love the friend to lovers trope. I also like enemies to lovers, which is maybe not as deep, but still revolves around that relationship change. I think for a lot of people, that's the appeal. It's a higher stakes version of the friends to lovers trope. 

I think Unknown did a fantastic job with this trope… for the first three quarters of its story. Unfortunately, where it fell down was in the most important part, which is that relationship turn. We followed Yuan through his relationship turn. We saw his feelings for Qian change over time. We saw him try his best to cope with them alone. We saw when he could no longer do that and the feelings poured out of him and that caused a huge rupture. We saw him take time away. We saw his devotion stay strong through a separation and through many years apart. We saw him come back as an adult and decide to pursue the relationship he wanted because he was so certain that he still wanted it. We saw that whole process for Yuan. 

Where the show really dropped the ball is that we didn't see that same deep process happen for Wei Qian. We saw it start, we saw him learn about his younger brother's feelings for him and have an initial response of shock and anger and some revulsion. We saw him push Yuan away. We saw him miss him terribly and regret pushing him away. We saw him start to change the way he saw him when he came back as an adult, and start to get more comfortable with seeking him out as a partner instead of as a younger brother. And then we just saw an abrupt flipped switch, where suddenly he was comfortable not only being in a romance, but in a sexual relationship. And I think that's where they really dropped the ball, is in that transition at the end. And unfortunately, that was the most important part of the story. [laughs] So it's a pretty shitty place to drop the ball, show! 

But, this show did so many of my favorite things—found family, intergenerational family trauma, a serious relationship change narrative. These are like three of my most favorite things in drama. The characters were struggling through poverty, that's another big thing that I love to see depicted well in drama, and the show took it seriously. This show, it felt like, was almost made in a lab to, like, hook me in the heart. And I still have a lot of warm feelings about it and love it, even though it kind of let me down in the end. 

But I'm curious, Ben, to hear you reflect, because I know versions of this trope have caused trouble for you before. I feel like you did better with this than you maybe thought you would, Ben.

Ben

So as someone who has had slurs thrown at him with real intent, I am particularly sensitive to narratives that wanna play with taboo that reflects some of the worst disingenuous presumptions about how queer people behave. I don't always enjoy these sort of narratives where they wanna deal with family members coming of age and developing feelings for each other and then wanting to pursue them. I often struggle with stepsibling relationships in particular because their parents had a romance. I don't usually enjoy the discord that the stepbrothers relationship is introducing to the genuine attempt by their parents to blend their families. 

I don't think this show prickled that because they're more akin to orphans than stepsiblings. I'm less perturbed by orphans who use familial terms to establish closeness and present themselves as a unit to other people, wanting to change that down the road. Also, a smart thing the show did was they used three actors to play Yuan to reflect his growth and change over time, which was a very good choice for this kind of story.

00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative

Shan

The other piece of this trope—the pseudo incest trope—that adds a layer, is that the taboo associated with incest does become part of the story. The external community and their other loved ones become an important part of the decision-making around the relationship change. You're gonna see other people being uncomfortable with the change in the relationship, so it adds this layer of complexity. 

Here, the most important and main stand-in for that, we have San Pang, who has been raised alongside them as their neighbor, who also sees himself as an older brother to Yuan and Li Li, who is the first person to catch on to Yuan’s feelings. He is the one who puts it together and sees the way Yuan’s feelings are changing, and he's the one who tells Qian. In the wake of his coming out to Qian—admitting that he is gay, but not saying who he likes—San Pang is the one who says, “I'm pretty sure you're the person he likes, bro,” and he tries to interfere. He goes to Yuan on his own and he says,”I am seeing this. I want you to understand that it's not something you can pursue. You're going to put so much stress on your brother if you let him find out.” 

There are some great scenes between San Pang and Yuan where they have really important conversations about why it's quote unquote wrong for him to feel this way about Qian, why San Pang feels so uncomfortable with it. He tries to intervene. It doesn't work, and then San Pang’s the one who helps Qian come up with a plan to send Yuan abroad. He was a very important part of that storyline. 

He also is a very important part of the storyline when Yuan comes back as an adult, because he, in those intervening years, has gone through his own journey of his changing feelings for somebody that he also considered a quasi-sibling, and has maybe mellowed out a little bit about what it would mean for the two of them to be together. He sees that the feelings are still there, sees how miserable Qian was when Yuan was gone, and he kind of changes his tune and says, “Maybe I was wrong to try to get in the way of this. Maybe this is the thing that will make you, my best friend in the world who I love, happy, and maybe that's right.” He was such a crucial character in this narrative and I just really loved the way the show used his character as a stand-in for what you would normally see happen with parents in a drama like this.

NiNi

He just wanted to protect everybody. He wants to protect them individually, he wants to protect their family unit. It's very sweet.

Ben

He's like the big cousin who also doesn't know what to do. Wei Qian is stuck with this role, having to care for his sister and the brother that they adopted. That takes a huge amount of personal fortitude to choose to do all of that. San Pang clearly sees this from a young age, and he's always trying to help the best he can. But he's just as young as them and it’s not like he brings any special knowledge to the table. He has these instincts that are grounded in the expected orthodoxy of a family unit, and he's trying to help them replicate that, because he earnestly believes that maybe these things can help them. 

Like, he recognizes that Wei Qian is alone with this huge responsibility he's carrying, and reasonably decides that maybe if he gets a partner who can appreciate that, the mental load on Wei Qian would be better. And as far as he knows, Wei Qian likes girls, so he tries to find women who might be interested in him. That doesn't go well. It's the same thing with always showing up at the clinic when Wei Qian gets the shit beat out of him with the gangster stuff. And even with Yuan, Yuan's feelings come up and he tries to help them, and even when they suggest sending Yuan away, they just wanted him to get some room from Wei Qian to maybe feel something for someone else. Yuan being gay was not their biggest concern. Yuan having feelings for Wei Qian was their primary concern. 

I joked, when he came back sassier and even gayer, that he clearly found his people [laughs] while was in New York. 

Shan

[laughs] Mmhmm. 

Ben

And I ended up really loving San Pang for that. Despite his reticence about Wei Qian, he ends up developing feelings for Li Li, and I think it's because they had those big fights where he was forced to reckon with the nature of these taboos and the orthodoxy they enforce, and whether or not they applied here or not. I feel like San Pang ending up in a relationship with Li Li is intentional by the narrative to draw that line and say, “If this is okay, why not this?”

Shan 

We should talk more about Li Li. One of the things I do credit this show with is caring about the whole family as a unit, and not only about the romance. Her involvement in the story and her relationship with her brothers was just a really important aspect to drive that point home. 

I loved Li Li as a character. She's the little sister that everybody takes care of, including Yuan. She's the one who let him in. When he first followed Wei Qian home, she claimed him as her brother first and brought him into the family. She has a very close but also very different relationship with each of her brothers. And we saw how those bonds held and shifted over time. And when their relationship changed and they decided to be together romantically, Li Li accepted it.

I think she always knew that their relationship was different. What was interesting, I think, and such a good choice, is that she never seemed to feel threatened by that. She was comfortable and secure, knowing that they both loved her. Even though their relationship could maybe sometimes crowd her out. 

Ben 

I really liked that moment in episode 11. We got this little breakdown from her about how nobody cares about Qian. She started to really process, as an adult now, that Wei Qian hid a lot of his suffering from them. 

I actually really like that Li Li got to do teenage rebellion. It says a lot about how effectively Wei Qian did his role as provider that she got to be a bratty teen. 

NiNi 

I feel like as a family story this hits me more than as a romance. Wei Qian’s relationship with both Yuan and Li Li feels parental more than sibling. Li Li and Yuan feel like siblings. 

Shan 

One of the interesting choices that I really appreciate in the story—in the early stages—is that while Wei Qian, I think, was trying to be a parental figure to both of them, Yuan never really accepted that, even when he was younger. And we saw that theme repeat throughout the show of Yuan saying, “You don't have to do it alone. I'm here to help you.” He always, always, always wanted to be a partner to Wei Qian. 

NiNi 

That is true, but this is coming from Yuan’s side. I absolutely see how Yuan made sure, maybe not even consciously, he wanted it to be clear where the boundaries were and the boundary was that, “We are family, we love each other, but you are not my parent, you are not my brother, you are somebody that I am partnered with. We are doing this together in this way.” Yuan always made that distinction. Wei Qian [laughs] is my problem here.

00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble

Shan 

We should get into where the show stumbled hard, because that's what it all comes down to, right? This big stumble in episode 11. 

NiNi 

Yeah, it just kind of sits over everything and it sits over my entire perception of the story now. I feel like I can't even think of the rest of the story without thinking about how it didn't take me where it needed to go at the end. Yuan comes back to Taiwan and it feels like for Wei Qian, maybe some things have changed, but he's doing a lot to not let this thing happen. And it doesn't feel like a thing that he's fighting against—’cause if it felt like something that he was fighting against, I feel like I could buy it. If it's something that his heart really desires, but his brain is telling him he can't do, like, that works, right? But it doesn't feel like that. 

I don't get where he got shaken. Like, I got the emotional shake. When Yuan gets kidnapped, ‘cause that's a thing that happens, you feel that fear that he had in that moment that he would lose Yuan. I understood why in that moment he would accept that he maybe had these emotions, these feelings that he needed to interrogate for Yuan, and they were churning him up inside, and they got broken out by this thing that happened that shook him. The emotional turn, totally believed. The turn where that goes romantic and sexual, that's the part that—it didn't carry me there. 

Shan 

I do agree with that last bit of what you said. I don't see it the same way as you in terms of not seeing the arc of his feelings starting to change. I think that was very clearly the arc of episodes 7 through 10 for Qian. During their separation, we saw how not functional, frankly, he was without Yuan around. He survived, he got through every day, but he was deeply unhappy. Everybody in his life could see it. He was regretful, he was missing him all the time. And punishing himself and withholding himself from talking to Yuan.

When Yuan came back, he started to interact with him differently. We saw the way that his physical awareness of him was different. We saw him start to seek him out more. We did see him start letting him in on some adult problem solving like he wouldn't have before. He still had his walls up, of course, he was still trying to consciously deny that he was willing to change their relationship in that way. But I do think the show took us through and showed us some very clear moments where his feelings were starting to shift and he was still fighting it. And then, of course, the kidnapping incident really shook him up. 

I think where the failure for me happened was in the moment where this suddenly turned into a sexual desire that we hadn't seen build, at all. And so that is the missing piece for me. They needed a couple more beats in the story there, between him coming to this emotional realization of his desire to keep Yuan next to him forever, and for that to then build into a sexual attraction that he was comfortable acting on. And I think that latter part is where they really dropped the ball. They have him literally say, “I'm not ready yet. I haven't figured out what I'm comfortable with yet.” And then like, literally two minutes later, he's like, “Fuck it, never mind.” And they're just going to town on each other. 

That didn't work for me at all. It was a very strange choice. It was a mistake. The show just really fumbled, and it sucks because they fumbled at the most important part of the story after building it so beautifully for ten weeks to just drop the ball that hard. It's a little bit baffling to me? 

Ben 

Episode 10 ends at the huge emotional turn for Wei Qian. And it was really frustrating for the show to conflate the emotional turn and the sexual turn and try and follow that immediately with the sex in the next episode. That was not the right choice. If the show had done the emotional turn and then spent at least half the episode dealing with this building sexual tension, that would have been interesting. 

The show was obsessed with staying on Yuan's perspective the whole time. It would have been totally fine if Yuan was crackling with sexual energy at the knowledge that Wei Qian had finally hit the emotional turn. But instead they really wanted to have reward sex and then focus on this stupid health scare plot. The problem is, the sex scene isn't good because there's no arc to it. Yuan has been ready to fuck this man for ten years and Wei Qian hasn't been ready to fuck anyone for, like, 15 years. 

They brought up this whole notion that part of Wei Qian's closed-off nature about sex is because his mom possibly abused him. And I just really did not enjoy the show rushing into this sudden sexual comfortability with Wei Qian after showing us that he did not have a good relationship with sex, and I feel like that needed to be resolved before those two were going to be able to have that sort of moment. As a result, the sex scene doesn't create much of an emotional arc, and the show knows this too, because they fucking fill it with stupid Yuan flashbacks. This should be about the change in Wei Qian, not the culmination of Yuan's feelings. 

Wei Qian's reticence about sex is not handled by the story, whether it be discovering queerness in himself or processing the sexual trauma from his mom or getting over whatever blocks about the kid you see as your brother wants to be with you. That part of it was missing when they had set up for it with the end of episode 10, where Wei Qian let down whatever big emotional barrier was between, “I need to protect Yuan,” versus, “I don't wanna be without Yuan.” They were prepped for it, totally, to go into that next area. And then they just didn't, and decided to make it about Wei Qian having a blood clot. 

NiNi 

All the pieces were actually there, they're just in the wrong order. There's a scene after the fact where they're doing this dating SIM game or whatever at work and Wei Qian is having these flashbacks to the sex scene. Why did they not let him have that moment as a fantasy moment before—

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

—rather than a flashback moment after? 

Ben 

That's what I also thought at the time. But you know how angry I get on this podcast [Ben and Shan laugh] about having to mentally rejigger the show [NiNi laughs] to make it fucking work. I will not!

Shan 

Besties! That's what they do in the book! That is exactly what they do in the book! [laughs]

Ben 

That's so fuckin’ aggravating. [laughs] I’m so fucking mad! 

Shan 

It’s so aggravating! All the things we're saying they should have done, they fucking did in the book! And I don't [claps hands together] know why the show didn't do it. I'm so mad! 

Ben 

She clappin’, yo, she mad. 

[all laugh]

00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel

Shan 

We haven't talked too much yet about the novel, but I do wanna talk a little bit about some of the adaptation choices that were made here. This show is an adaptation of the novel Da Ge by Priest, who is a very well known danmei author. Other live action adaptations of her books include Word of Honor, Guardian, Justice in the Dark... several others, a lot of them have now been shelved or didn't get to finish airing because of the ban in China. So, it was extremely exciting for fans of her works to see a Taiwanese production take up an adaptation of one of her books, because we know that we're not gonna get good adaptations of danmei anymore out of China, because they are banning queer content and censoring it all to hell—even more than other countries. 

They made a lot of really smart adaptation choices in the way that they structured the show. The book is a lot more complex, in the way that most Priest novels are. There's a lot more characters, the plots are far more intricate, there's a lot more going on. There's an additional member of the family in the book. There's another best friend in the building. There are, like, three different gangs [laughs] instead of one. There's this whole corporate real estate plot that's tied to Wei Qian's work. It's a lot more complex. 

The show did, I think, a fantastic job of making choices to streamline the story, to make it simple enough to fit into a 12 episode arc while still retaining the core themes and the core relationships. And it also did some really great work around the cultural pieces. Mainland China has a lot more deep homophobia, fatphobia, some real weirdness around the way, in media, that sex and gay sex in particular get discussed, and this show really smoothed all of that out. 

Where they really blew it on the adaptation is at this end arc. You see all these aspects of Wei Qian's emotional journey that we are lamenting the show missed. I don't really understand why the show decided to ignore that material in favor of doing what it did instead. A lot of the stuff in the final arc was not in the book at all. If you are someone who loved this story and is disappointed in the ending, I just can't recommend highly enough that you read that book. 

Ben 

That's the theme of this episode. [laughs] If you enjoyed these shows, go do something else. 

Shan 

[laughs] Do something else! No, but do watch Unknown. I do love this show. I don't wanna say that you shouldn’t watch it, but you should go read the book too, ‘cause it'll fill in some pieces that we're missing here.

00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

I totally get NiNi maybe not being super connected to what was goin’ on, and if they had not fucked up episode 11, it just would have been an interesting conversation about, where does this gap form? But now we're bogged down in the fact that it's easy to point to the lack of payoff. I watched episode 12 this morning before we're recording this session. And I was like, “Okay, I guess this is fine.” [Shan laugh] This is meant to feel like, almost, epilogue. And I enjoyed the big family hand hold. But I really feel like they really failed at the final steps of the “Yuan and Wei Qian are now a couple” turn, which is really annoying because there were so many things that it did great. 

In the very final episode, there's this really great sequence when we learn that Li Li is pregnant and they have the reaction in the hallway and everybody's coming out of different doors that you don't expect. 

Shan 

That is the funniest scene. 

Ben 

Every time Wei Qian wanted to kill San Pang? [Shan laughs] Some of the best scenes in this show. Like, fucking Yuan sitting on the couch eatin’ his tomatoes, he was enjoying the chaos. We got this other woman who might be with Wei Qian, “I can take care of my brother.”

[Ben and Shan laugh] 

Shan 

He's like, “Don't you worry about it.” I did love those moments of Yuan being like, “Oh, I'm not the family problem now, ha!” [laughs] He's just like sitting back and enjoying it. 

Even at the end, I was frustrated with the last two episodes, but I still had a lot of affection for these characters and this family. This isn't an ending that completely ruined the show, for me. 

Ben 

Shan has a bat she holds called coulda been a 10 that she bashes sh— 

Shan

Yes! [laughs] 

Ben

—bashes shows with.

Shan 

Goddammit! One of the pieces of my frustration here is that this was on track to possibly be the best Taiwanese BL ever made. 

NiNi

Okay, so ratings. Shan, let's have you go first. What do you rate Unknown?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I had to take out my coulda been a 10 bat. 

I think that the narrative and the character work was so strong through the first 10 episodes that I can't take it lower than that. It's sticking with me. It's been a while since I finished the show, and I still think about it every single day. I think about these characters all the time, and that's not gonna go away just because the last couple episodes were a little bit disappointing for me.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Because I am in the business of recommending things—it's my whole shtick—this is an 8.5. It sits between “BL fans should watch this” and “People who like romance should watch this,” for me. I can't give it a 9 because I feel really strongly about the episode 11/12 caveats. But I don't wanna pretend that I didn't think that this cast did a really great job capturing the nuances of their dynamics. And even if they're let down a little bit by some of the direction and writing choices towards the end, I think that the family portion of this is so good, genuinely. So I do think this show is worth watching for people who enjoy the kinds of narratives the show wants to play with. We just need to understand that it stumbles at the end. 

NiNi?

NiNi

I'm having a hard time with this one because in my head this isn't a BL. If I had to put it into a category in my head, it would get slotted near to something like a Moonlight Chicken or 180 D. But it doesn't have the queer bona fides that either of those have. It feels like a family drama that had a romance in it that happened to be this kid falling in love with somebody who is taking care of him. But the idea of it being a central romance, I just didn't buy. So it was a difficult one for me to rate in terms of how I felt about it as a romance. 

In the end, I ended up at an 8 for the show. I think as a family drama, it's excellent. As a family drama, I would probably give it a 9.5 and as a romance, I would probably give it a 7, and so I wind up somewhere in the middle, which for me is an 8. I feel like it's a solid 8 show.

Ben

It's an 8.5 from The Conversation, recommended with specific reservations!

NiNi

You gotta get that .5 in. It's fine.

Shan

We gotta get it in. We gotta—

Ben

That's just how math works!

Shan

—gotta get it in.

NiNi

I know, I'm allowing you to have math. It was a good show.

Ben

It could have been an excellent show, but hmph!

Shan

So close to being one of my all time favorite dramas. It's fine, I'm just gonna go cry about it.

Ben

You were mad about it, because Shan wasn't even buggin’ me on a Saturday, like, “Go watch this show, Ben. Go watch it right now. Wake up, gay boy! Go watch the show so I can talk.”

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Ben knew I didn't like the final episodes ‘cause I was not asking him if he watched them yet. [laugh] I was like, I don't wanna talk about it!

00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

NiNi 

I want us to talk a little bit about where Taiwanese BL is and what's been happening with it lately and whether it is making the leap in the same ways that other countries appear to be making the leap lately. Whatever that leap is for them. 

I feel in some ways like Taiwanese BL has been a bit stagnant. 

Ben 

Taiwan is a super small country and… politically, they have been a little distracted for a few years! They're not in a position to do a ton more with BL right now. I don't think that we're gonna see a huge sudden surge from Taiwan. The best thing about Unknown is that Taiwan is not out of the game altogether, ‘cause I was real worried! The HIStory franchise is in ruins, and we hadn't really seen something of this production caliber in a while. 

Shan 

I'm with you, Ben. Honestly, when Unknown started airing, I was like, “Oh, thank God, Taiwan can still do it.” I have always been a fan of Taiwanese BLs, which might feel a little bit discordant because [laughs] I am someone who cares a lot about writing and storytelling and story is usually, honestly, the weakest part of Taiwanese BL. They usually don't have good writing. But, what I've always connected to in Taiwanese BLs is, I feel like they have a really good handle on relationship dynamics. They're really good at building characters that connect well with each other emotionally, physically—they've always done really good physical intimacy work in their shows, they usually cast really well for chemistry—and so usually in Taiwanese BLs, it's the characters and the character dynamics that hook me, more than the story. 

So I was really excited to see the high quality Taiwanese production that I knew had a good story underpinning it. I hope to see more. I personally had a great time with Kiseki: Dear To Me, but it is not exactly high art. [laughs] And this run of VBL shows was so bad that I was really losing faith. I had made a commitment that I was going to at least try watching every single Taiwanese BL that comes out. I'm still sticking with that, but I was starting to flag a little bit because some of these shows were so bad. 

So I was so thrilled to see that they still were doing productions of this caliber. And Unknown has been quite successful and got them a lot of positive attention, and so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to continue putting together productions like this, drawing actors of the caliber that they got for this show. I'm more hopeful because this show happened than I was certainly at the end of the year. 

Ben 

I will say the way that the Taiwanese actors talk about the work remains one of my favorite things. I be deep in these cast interviews, seein’ what they have to say about this work, and these Taiwanese boys have really nuanced and complex feelings about the work they're doing playing queer characters. I feel the respect and sometimes the duty they feel to get it right in the way they talk about their characters and the work they're doing. That's why I remain very friendly to… even [laughs] some of the jankiest Taiwanese BLs. These boys take playing queerness seriously. It's really warming for me to know that these guys understand that they're portraying queer people and that queer people will be affected by their portrayals. 

NiNi 

I think I just don't have the connection to Taiwanese drama. I'm coming at this from kdrama, through jdrama, through Thai drama. Taiwan’s the last place that I landed, and I think that I just haven't made the leap yet in terms of style and rhythms and all those other things. Mostly because I don't get to see a lot of it, there is not much. And I think that that definitely impacts how I feel about Taiwanese drama and Taiwanese BL. There are some I love—you know, I'm a staunch lover of HIStory 2: Right or Wrong. You know how I feel about Make Our Days Count. You know how I feel about We Best Love. But none of those, except maybe Right or Wrong, as Shan pointed out, has really stellar writing. 

Ben 

Why would you mention Make Our Days Count? I'm so mad all of a sudden! [laughs]

Shan 

No! Don't go there, Ben. Earmuffs!

NiNi 

We're never gonna get out of a Taiwanese BL conversation without it coming up. It just [laughs] isn’t gonna happen. 

Ben 

[volume raising] Wanna talk about endings for Taiwanese—

Shan

No!

Ben

—BLs?! [laughs]

Shan 

No, we do not! Stop. Pause. NiNi, continue your point. 

NiNi 

What have I done? [laughs] 

Yeah, I agree with Shan that the writing isn't great, and that's maybe one of the reasons that I haven't latched on to Taiwanese BL in the way that I have to others, because I am also a writing person. I can get behind a story for other reasons, and I have. I've gotten behind stories that were not written well because there was some other element of them that really grabbed me, and that's what has happened to me in the Taiwanese BLs that I have liked. But just generally, I don't gravitate in this direction, and there hasn't really been anything yet that makes me wanna gravitate more in this direction?

I recognise the strength of character development. I recognise the fantastic acting in a lotta instances, some of these guys are amazing actors. I just, it hasn't moved me in the kind of ways that I've been moved from other things. And it kinda makes me sad in some ways. I'm still looking for that Taiwanese BL that's gonna grab me by the throat. I haven't found that one yet. I'll keep looking. 

Shan 

It's hard, too, ‘cause like Ben said, it's such a small industry. We don't get that many Taiwanese BLs and we certainly don't get that many of quality. But, I've always really loved the approach to BL that Taiwan brings. 

Ben 

I really feel like when they make BL, somebody in the room is asking how gay people might feel about some of the choices they're making. 

Shan 

I'm gonna keep showing up for Taiwanese BL. I'm gonna keep watching them. I really hope that we get to see more productions of this caliber. I hope that we get to see them working from strong source material, so that the storytelling can really live up to what the casts are bringing. I'm excited to see what comes out next. 

NiNi 

Ray Jiang can stay, though, I like his directorial style. He keeps doing stuff and he hits on something that really pops? I feel like that's the one that's gonna grab me. If I wasn't terrified of what Lin Pei Yu was capable of after Kiseki. If I could get Lin Pei Yu at her best plus Ray Jiang at his best, with basically any of the actors I've ever seen in Taiwanese BL, maybe we'll get something that will grab me by the throat. 

Anyway, that is going to wrap us up on… what's the name of this episode? 

Shan 

Have we decided yet? Hmm. 

Ben 

The State of Taiwan, Taiwanese BL episode, whatever. 

NiNi 

Okay. That is going to wrap us up on our Taiwan episode. We out!

Thank you for being here, Shan. Say bye to the people. 

Shan 

Thank you for having me. Bye, people! 

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace.

[gerryland]

[primal-slayer]

X-Men: The animated series vs X-Men '97 opening

[timbit-robin-art]

Dropping in for a new mission.

[mienar]

the wandering painter, part one

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