#Summer Series

[elliesfavbae]

Summer camps and dead mouses, Part 2 SERIES

Summer camp with enemies to lovers Ellie Williams

part 1, part 3, part 4

synopsis: This summer, you go to a summer camp for the first time. You've met so many new people, but one of them stands out for being a total jerk. Unfortunately for you, you run into each other all the time. Is that just a coincidence?

pairing: mean!Ellie Williams x reader

warnings: use of y/n, Ellie is still a bitch, swearing

wc:4000

Ellie is crouching ahead, probably tying her shoe, just a few feet in front of you. She hasn’t noticed you yet. You sneak up slowly from behind, almost there... And then you step on a dry stick buried in the grass.

A crack echoes in the surroundings. Ellie turns around in less than a second. She stands up and reaches over for your lanyard, but you're quick too. You deftly avoid her grasp, spin around, and start to run. A plan forms in your head. You notice her chasing you—perfect.

You dash towards the main building, bypassing the main door for the entrance to the basement, hoping it’s empty. Luckily, it’s unlocked. You silently thank Olivia for showing you this route earlier.

Of course, Ellie is still in pursuit. She rushes through the door behind you.

The room isn't large, rectangular with a shelf in the middle. You sprint to the end of the basement, hiding behind the big shelf while Ellie positions herself on the opposite side.

“What’s your plan now, hm?” she says with a smirk, raising her eyebrows.

You catch your breath. "Well, we’ll find out who’s more agile."

A while passes before Ellie decides to rush towards you, and you start running away from her. Suddenly, you turn around, hoping to catch her off guard.

But she’s ready. She tries to grab your name tag, but you manage to grab both of her arms. She falls onto you and you both collapse to the floor. She lies on top of you, momentarily still, seemingly processing what just happened. You continue holding onto her arms, feeling the tension in her muscles beneath your fingers. Unfortunately, this distracts you from everything else. It’s as if the world stops for a moment. You feel her heavy breathing on your face, so close to yours. Her hair falls onto your face and—snap. Ellie takes advantage of your distraction and tears the name tag off your lanyard.

You look up at her; she’s wearing that familiar smirk again.

“Bitch,” you murmur under your breath. She’s still lying on you and clearly hears it, raising her eyebrows, still smiling.

She gets up from the ground, and so do you.

“Got any more tags?” She reaches out her hand.

“No,” you roll your eyes.

“Shouldn’t have challenged me if you couldn’t keep up.”

“I would’ve caught you if you—” You don’t finish the sentence out loud. “—if you weren’t so... attractive,” you conclude in your thoughts. You cringe; it sounds cheesy even inside of your head.

“If I what?” She asks, playing with your name tag. “Whatever. You better stay away from me next time; you’re honestly pissing me off,” she sighs as she heads for the exit without looking back at you once.

She closes the squeaking door. You leave the basement soon after. A campfire awaits near the main square for those who lost. You drag your feet towards it, anger filling you. It’s not just about losing the game; it’s about Ellie, her attitude. She’s so proud and haughty, you wish you could wipe that smirk off her face one day. 

And the fall? Her body on top of yours? Did she do that on purpose? What? Of course not, why would she? Or maybe? You saw her being quite successful with the counselor earlier…  A flood of questions occupies your mind. You can’t help but replay the moment one last time, still feeling her hands on yours and yours on her arms. Her heavy breath hitting your forehead and auburn strands of hair falling on your cheeks. Snap out of it, you tell yourself. You still dislike her, especially when you replay all those moments when she acted like a bitch—and there are so many, even though you’ve only known her for two days.

You arrive at the campfire and notice all your roommates are already seated. Actually, a lot of people are here. Maybe watching the sunset took longer than you thought.

You sit next to friends from your cabin and sigh. The warm flames nicely warm your body.

“Y/n, you died too? Well, at least you were the last of us,” Emma, one of your roommates, points out.

“Yeah, I guess. But the way I died was so embarrassing,” you groan.

“Why, what happened?”

“Do you guys know Ellie?” You look around, seeing mostly confused faces. “The girl who took the mouse out of our bathroom yesterday? The one who was late to the assembly?” Heads finally nod in recognition.

“Well, what do you think of her?” you decide to test the waters.

“I mean, she helped us with the dead mouse yesterday... And the way she pissed off the director was kinda funny,” one of the girls remarks.

“Yeah, but doesn’t she seem, like, super bitchy to you?” No one agrees except Olivia.

“Yeah, sometimes she looks at me like she wants to kill me,” Olivia chuckles. “But I guess I don’t pay much attention to her.”

 Are you seriously the only one she irritates? Maybe the problem is you, not her… 

“I shared a kayak with her today, and she was a total ass, seriously.” You try to defend yourself.

“How so?”

“Like... um, I can’t remember her exact behavior right now, but she was just straight up mean,” you admit, feeling a bitter pang in your chest. Not because of someone’s harsh words, but because you feel like you made a fool of yourself. Does no one else find her infuriating besides you?

 “Yeah, I asked about her because she killed me in the game,” you clear your throat, “and who killed you?” Changing the subject successfully.

You enjoy the rest of the evening; it’s peaceful, and eventually, your mood improves. You’re so tired after the first day that you don’t even join your friends when they sneak out of your cabin to hang out with others; you collapse onto your bed and fall asleep immediately.

***

The next morning, an alarm clock wakes up the whole room. Since you got the most sleep last night, you are the first to actually get out of bed and have plenty of time for yourself. Looking at your other roommates, you doubt if some of them got any sleep at all last night.

You walk towards the main square with them as they discuss the events of last night.

“Seriously, y/n, it’s a shame you weren’t there yesterday. You should totally join us tonight,” Mia playfully punches your arm.

“Yeah, we had to sneak around so the counselor wouldn’t catch us. We made it to Lily’s room, and at first, we just talked—”

“Yeah, but then we started playing spin the bottle, you know. We only managed like two rounds before we heard the counselor coming, and we had to bail.”

“Mhm, we’re planning on continuing the game tonight. You’re in, right?” Mia asks.

Thinking about it now, you regret not joining the girls yesterday; you usually never say no to fun.

“Of course I am. I wish I had been there last night too,” you admit with a smile, and the girls get enthusiastic as well.

***

You’ve already chosen the activities for the day. First is swimming, then sailing, and lastly, rock climbing. Olivia is supposed to accompany you on each activity too.

You change into your swimsuit and wrap yourself in a towel. You join your group in the assembly area, recognizing some familiar faces. As you walk towards the lakeside, you pass by the horse stable. Looking closer, you notice Ellie cleaning one of the horse stalls—yesterday's punishment. You try not to burst out laughing with Olivia when you see her.

The first activity is nothing special; as soon as you get into the water, instead of swimming, you start splashing around with the cold water. Since it’s early summer, the water has barely warmed up from the sun. The rest of the activity is spent either tanning on the shore or occasionally dipping into the water, only to quickly run back to dry land as others splash you.

Since the next activity is sailing, you don’t bother changing out of your swimwear, assuming you might get wet again. However, it’s just the start of camp, so the instructor begins with theory lessons on land: boat construction, the wind rose, basic maneuvers. By the end of the lesson, all the new information begins to blur together in your mind. There’s too many. 

It’s alright, you calm yourself down; you have the whole month to learn.

After lunch (it was spaghetti today!), you spend the break reading a book in your room and hanging out with your roommates.

Now it’s time for rock climbing. It’s your first time trying it, but you’ve always wanted to try it. You change into more sporty clothes and follow Olivia to the main square. You join the crowd until you arrive at the climbing wall. You look up; the wall is about 50 feet tall—is that a lot for a climbing wall? You have no idea; it looks average.

The activity starts with the instructor’s introduction and a little theory, but fortunately, it doesn’t take up all the remaining time. First, everyone who wants to climb has to pair up with someone heavier and more experienced to belay them.

You look around; Olivia is about the same size as you, so she wouldn’t be the best match. You turn and spot her: a girl wearing a black tank top with smooth blonde hair in a single braid. She looks much more muscular than you—perfect. You approach her.

"Hey, do you mind belaying me?" You ask Abby, who looks at you with a neutral expression at first.

"Sure, why not," she responds with a warm smile lighting up her face.

The instructor gives you a bit more instruction before helping you with the climbing harness. Abby, clearly more experienced with this type of equipment, manages hers effortlessly.

"Tell me when you’re ready." You stand facing the wall, Abby behind you holding the rope to belay you. As you look up, the height suddenly seems much more daunting than the supposed 50 feet. Okay, you can do this. That’s what Olivia next to you reassures, too.

Around you, some people are already climbing, while others watch from below. You take a deep breath and grab two handholds above your head, placing both feet on lower holds. With your hand reaching for another hold, you feel the rope tighten, lifting you slightly higher. You adjust your foot and continue upwards.

The holds require more strength than you anticipated, but you push through, climbing a little higher. You’ve moved about five holds up already. Your fingers of both hands reach another holds, but they’re too small and you feel them slipping on the polyester resin slowly— you know it's only a matter of time before you lose grip.

Just before you fall, you glance down. You let go of the hold, and Abby’s rope catches you, holding you at the same height for a few seconds before she carefully lowers you to the ground. She helps you remove the harness.

"How was it?" Abby asks kindly.

"I didn’t realize climbing was that hard," you admit, your hands sore and muscles tense.

"Was that your first time?"

"Was it really that obvious?" You whine.

"Well, you got pretty high if it was your first time. Most people are too nervous to even attempt the wall," Abby encourages.

You look at the climbing wall and the point from which you fell. You climbed about, wow shocking, 7 feet. You know Abby is probably being just polite and not honest, but it's still nice of her.

"I was only up there for like 5 minutes, but thanks anyway… Do you climb often? Sorry, that's a dumb question. You look… well, clearly experienced," you say, noticing her muscles.

"Yeah, I swim too, but climbing has always been my favorite," Abby admits.

The counselor announces the session's end, and people begin to head back to their cabins.

"Well, I’ll see you around," Abby waves with a smile, leaving you and joining her friends.

You gather your things, and Olivia finds you.

"Abby, huh?" she grins teasingly.

"What do you mean?" you shake your head.

"I saw the way you were checking her out. Interesting, wouldn't have pegged you for being into the head counselor’s daughter…"

"What? No, it's not like that! Yeah, she's attractive but—" You stop short, processing her words. "Wait, did you say Mr. Anderson's daughter?!" Your eyes widen in surprise.

"Shh, not so loud. Yeah, she’s Abby Anderson. To be honest, they do look alike, kind of," Olivia laughs.

"No they don’t! Gross! She’s cute, I guess. But definitely not my type," you assure her, the rest of the walk filled with idle chatter. You prepare for dinner and head over with your group, sitting together at a table.

"Mrs. Miller told me we're playing Treasure Hunt tonight, but she said not to tell anyone, so be quiet," Leah, your roommate, reveals while eating.

"That children’s game? Oh God," you groan, anticipating it'll be boring.

"No no, it's different here. It's actually quite fun," Olivia chimes in mischievously. "Once it's dark, everyone gets paired up randomly and gets just a flashlight and a treasure map. The treasure's hidden somewhere in the woods…"

"Yeah, and the first pair to find it gets a prize." Emma adds.

"And what's the prize?" you inquire, starting to get curious.

"A fancy dinner or something, but that's not the point. It’s about being out in the dark with just a flashlight and possibly some… hot company," Olivia explains, winking at you.

"Yeah, some people really… well, they take full advantage of the occasion, you know two people left alone in the dark" Emma smirks.

"What? The way you put it sounds pretty horrible," you admit.

"No, it's thrilling!" they try to convince you. "Plus, the counselors try to spook you. Come on, it's so much fun…"

"I guess it could be fun…" You're still unsure, particularly about being alone in the woods with others trying to scare you. But you're up for new experiences, right?

"If you give up on the treasure hunt idea, we’re moving Spin the Bottle to the woods. We’ll meet by the pond."

The after-dinner break is longer than usual, you have to wait till the night comes. Three hours later, everyone gathers in the main square. Leah was right; the counselor confirms it’s Treasure Hunt night.

The rules are reiterated, although you’re already familiar with them. Finally, the pairs are announced.

"Y/n and Amelia Oakley."

You walk to the center and see Amelia approaching. Short brown hair, glasses— right, you met her at Arts and Crafts yesterday. She seemed nice. You both approach another counselor who distributes flashlights and the treasure map.

"Hey, we met at Arts and Crafts yesterday," you initiate the conversation.

"Yeah, I remember you," she says warmly.

She might not be the "super hot company" your friends were telling you about, but the game should still be enjoyable with her as a partner. At least you didn’t end up with a total nightmare like Ellie for example. Phew.

You all gather at the main gate, waiting for the game to commence. It’s a serene night; the sun has already set, and while it's dark, it’s not completely pitch-black yet. The stars are beginning to twinkle above, and you can hear the rustling of leaves and the breeze through the trees.

The director opens the gate, and as everyone prepares to dash off, he speaks up.

"You have to be here in exactly three hours, or sooner. Whistles will blow 10 minutes before the end. Don’t even think about leaving the designated area; the counselors will find you anyway. Remember, we have eyes and ears everywhere." You gulp, recalling the stories your friend shared about counselors lurking in the dark woods. "Let the game begin!"

The rush is palpable as the crowd surges toward the nearest path. Amelia grabs your hand, and you both join the sprint. Initially, everyone follows the same route, but as time passes, the group thins out as people take different directions.

"Let's turn left now!" Amelia shouts above the din, and you follow suit. After a few moments, you stop to catch your breath.

"Okay. What's our plan? How do we find this treasure?" you ask, still panting.

"Well, according to the map," she shines her flashlight on the paper, "we need to head to the west side of the woods. But are we really here just for the treasure?"

You look at her, confused.

"What else would we be here for?"

"I mean, for many, the appeal of this game is the freedom. For one night, you’re left alone in the woods. It would be a shame to use that time only to find some hidden treasure," she suggests, her face softly illuminated by the flashlight.

What are her intentions? Hopefully just friendly…

"Yeah, I guess… But what else could we do?" You were kind of looking forward to the treasure hunt before.

"Some people form groups and hang out, others like to spook the other campers," Amelia explains.

"That sounds more interesting than the original game," you admit.

"Okay, but how do we find them?" you wonder aloud.

"Well, we either stumble upon them, or we could sit quietly and listen for any approaching footsteps. Though that might seem a bit creepy," she laughs.

"I suppose we could try the first option…"

You start walking through the woods, unfortunately without encountering anyone. It’s now completely dark; your flashlight is your only source of light. It’s getting chilly, and you regret not bringing a hoodie.

"You know, thinking about it now, letting teenagers loose in the woods all night seems like a pretty risky idea. What if someone goes missing or something?" you voice your concerns.

"For the past 30 years, it hasn’t happened. And the counselors are everywhere. They might even be right behind you," Amelia says, sending a shiver down your spine. "Don’t worry, if you were to yell for help, three of them would probably appear instantly."

"That's a little unsettling," you chuckle nervously.

Suddenly, you hear the crackling of leaves behind you. You whip around, and Amelia grabs your hand. Both of you freeze, listening intently.

The sound comes again— louder, closer…

"RAAAAAH!" a scream echoes right behind you. Startled, Amelia lets go of your hand and bolts. You run after her, the creature in hot pursuit behind you.

You continue running until you reach a fork in the road. Glancing back, your flashlight reveals two human silhouettes giving chase, they’re so close now. You turn back, noticing Amelia is missing. Fuck, she has already chosen a path, but you’re unsure which one. Deciding quickly, you turn right, hoping to meet her there.

You shine your flashlight ahead but see no sign of Amelia. After a while, you can’t hear footsteps behind you either. Turning around, you realize you’re now alone. Alone in the woods with only your flashlight, you’ve lost the treasure map long ago. That was probably the fastest you’ve run in your life.

"Fuck…" you curse under your breath, standing still to catch your breath. You look around, finding no one in sight. Your first instinct is to backtrack to the fork in the road, but as you start walking, you realize you lost your way in the heat of the chase.

You're on the verge of calling out for counselors, as Amelia suggested, when a distant flashlight catches your eye. At this point, you're indifferent whether it's the chasers, Amelia, or anyone else; you just can't stand being alone in these dark woods anymore. Flashing your own light a few times, you hurry over to the source. As you shine your flashlight in their face, you realize it’s… Ellie.

"For fuck’s sake, can you stop blinding me with that damn thing?!" You would’ve recognized this tone everywhere, even if you didn’t know it’s Ellie.

"Ellie…"

"No way," she groans, hiding her face in her hands. She realizes it’s you who she has bumped into. "I've been wandering alone for twenty minutes, and you are the first person I meet?"

"Why are you alone?"

"I ditched my partner ages ago. At first, I was scaring the other campers," she smirks. "It was hilarious— they were all pissing their pants. But then I got bored and headed towards the pond."

Right, you remember. Your friends mentioned they were meeting there. A thought appears in your head.

“I was walking towards the pond, too”

"They invited you to play too?" she sighs, clearly mad. "I was hoping to leave you here once you’re done talking."

"Not that simple, Williams," you reply, feeling just as displeased about the reunion. "Do you know the way?"

"It’s on the map, genius," she scoffs.

"Well, I lost mine. Looks like we're walking together," you say, hearing Ellie emit another groan.

For a while, silence hangs between you both. It's not exactly awkward—more like a mutual animosity. 

"I lost my partner when we got chased," you eventually mention.

"I don't care," Ellie cuts you off with a sharp tone, prompting a sigh from you.

"Ellie, what is your problem?"

"My problem? What do you mean?" Her tone betrays her disinterest.

"You are such a bitch to me. Since the first time we’ve talked."

"Thanks."

"Answer me, Ellie," you insist, growing tired of the tension.

"You annoy me. Your face, your voice… I don’t know. What do you expect? Maybe I'm just a bitch," Ellie sighs, revealing a glimpse of vulnerability.

In the distance, you hear murmurs of human voices from behind the trees.

"Looks like we're here," you comment as you and Ellie approach the gathering.

You see about ten people gathered in a circle. Spotting your friends, you walk over to them.

"Hey, Y/n! We've been waiting for you!" They greet you eagerly.

"How long have you been here?" you ask, settling down as they make room for you.

"Not long. Just got here about five minutes ago. We're still waiting on a few more," Olivia informs you.

You glance around. Someone has cleared the leaves and sticks for seating so the ground is clear. Some people have placed their flashlights on the ground, while others still hold theirs. A greenish pond shimmers a few feet away, reflecting all of the lights.

After a while, five more people join the circle. Despite the dim lighting, you manage to recognize some faces, including Abby, the girl who belayed you while climbing earlier.

A deep voice cuts through the murmurs. "Quiet, everyone! Let’s start the game."

Taglist: @littlelittlebear

[the-conversation-pod]

Second Rate Second Chance: The Letdowns of Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living With Him

And we're back! We brought our good friend @twig-tea back to talk about how two Japanese BLs should have been 10s but absolutely flopped for us. This week we're talking about second chance romances, long-term pining, and their roles in queer narratives. Join us to break down what it's like to watch a show fall apart in real time.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked 00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work 00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started 00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong 00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back. This week, we're gonna be unpacking two Japanese shows that really let us down this season in our Second Rate Second Chance episode. We've brought our friend twig-tea back to the podcast. 

Say hi, Twig. 

Twig 

Hi everyone. 

Ben 

We brought Twig back on because Twig and I have been watching Japanese BL and Japanese cinema for a long time. We have seen a lot of the good and bad of Japanese BL, and unfortunately both Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living with Him fall into the bad column for us. 

We both have a genuine fondness for the way that Japanese teams often execute queerness with a lot of approachable specificity that really lets both of us connect to the queer truth of these characters. 

That's personally important for me because, beyond these shows kind of fumbling the bag, they also undercut the queer narratives they're telling with some of the mistakes they've made. This is something that's becoming a burgeoning issue for me and Twig in our discussions about the state of global BL, and so we're going to also get into that towards the end. 

00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked

NiNi 

Let's start with Love is Better the Second Time Around. Ben, what is Love is Better the Second Time Around about?

Ben 

Love is Better the Second Time Around is a second chance Japanese BL about two guys in their earlyish 30s who were very close in their teens when they were in school together, broke up, and are now running into each other again as a result of work. 

Our main character's name is Miyata Akihiro. He is an editor for some sort of business and economics magazine and he is assigned to work with this writer and professor, who happens to be his childhood boyfriend. They were supposed to be very serious, and then they had a really painful breakup at a crucial moment. Iwanaga Takashi has clearly still been in love with Miyata this whole time and is flirting relentlessly with this man. They work through some, but not all of their issues and are able to start going out together again before the show absolutely shits the bed. 

Before we get to that portion of it,Twig! Walk us through the early developments when we were initially responding positively to the show and what we were really dialed in on. 

Twig 

The first four episodes of this show were some of my favorite television this year. Which is why I’m so upset about the last two, but we'll get there.

When they meet each other as adults, the messiness of their past is established right away, and you can feel the tension between them. The grudge that Miyata holds is really fun to watch. Iwanaga is a real flirt. He leans into the sort of playboy personality that was also really fun to watch. 

It immediately felt adult. Iwanaga admitted to having casual sex with his assistant. Miyata made fun of him for it. They had a kiss in that first episode. It was so good. Miyata decided that he was an adult now, and he wasn't gonna be pushed around by his senpai from high school anymore. The assistant, Shiraishi, was a bitch. A really fun bitch to watch. [laughs]

Ben 

[laughs] He really was. He was a real bitch for like, the first four or five episodes. I loved it. 

NiNi 

I enjoyed that. 

Ben 

He was played by Takamatsu Aloha, who was in Tokyo in April Is… playing Ren there. It was really fun to see him again. 

NiNi 

He really nailed the whole bitchy, “Who is this new person? Why are they around this person that I am perceiving to be my man? I need to get rid of this person quick, fast. What is the fastest way that I can do that?” Mm, loved it. It was so, so bitchy. Perfect. 

Twig 

And it played so well to what felt like the point of the story, which was that the main characters are older now, and to have this younger person around acting younger really helped highlight the fact that these older characters are a little bit more mature and so they're making slightly more mature decisions. [laughs] I won't say very much more mature, but a little bit. He actually worked really well to help emphasize that part of the story. 

And we learned early on that Miyata was trying to get engaged; we also see him [laughs] fail at it so badly. That scene is one of my favorites, where he's opening the ring box and Fukuda-san, she won't let him propose. She keeps closing it in his face. 

Ben 

That was honestly one of the most enjoyable meta moments about BL, where the girl who doesn't deserve this sees a very bad proposal coming and physically restrains [laughs] restrains [NiNi laughs] the main character from opening the ring box so he can't propose. 

NiNi 

It was super funny. So good. She was just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 

Twig 

It was perfect. And then, of course Miyata then called Iwanaga to complain about not being allowed to propose, which was perfect and gave more opportunities for extreme flirting. 

I loved so much that these two characters started having sex again while Miyata was still mad and still unwilling to be in a relationship with Iwanaga. Miyata confirming that the sex did not mean anything. 

NiNi 

I loved that he was just like, “I wondered if you were good at this. I'm so mad at you right now.” [NiNi and Twig laugh] That was so funny!

Ben 

That was also kinda hot, let's be real. 

Twig 

Yes! Ben and I had a whole conversation about how finally a scene with tension in yukatas pays off and we see people actually have sex. 

Ben 

Let me tell you. The real sign that you've been in Japanese BL for a while is when you see two fuckin’ boys in yukata sharing a room together and you know no one's gonna fuck. 

Twig 

Right? [laugh]

Ben 

There's a fun one for the listeners. Sound off in the comments. List all of the Japanese BL that put those boys in yukata and then did not deliver. 

Twig 

But we got it in this one, finally. And we also got that iconic line, “If you love me, don't apologize.” Which is also, whoo. 

NiNi 

I did enjoy that. “Do not apologize for this because I'm ‘bout to have a good ass time.” 

Ben 

I wanna do a quick follow up on one of the comments you made about the maturity of these characters relative to Shiraishi in the story. This is a moment where Shiraishi intentionally doesn't deliver a message about an updated deadline to Iwanaga for the column he's writing for Miyata’s magazine. And it causes a real problem because now Miyata has to go rush to Iwanaga, who was away on a work trip, and get him to hurriedly write this article. It leads to an important sex scene, which is great for us and the yukata delivery that we were very happy about. But I really like that Miyata is so done with Shiraishi. When he finally confronts him about it, he's like, “I don't care if you don't like me, but you're fucking up other people’s lives when you do shit like this.” He wasn't angry at him, the just jaded disappointment cut that man to the fucking bone. He was not ready for it. 

Twig 

It both illustrated Miyata being more mature and also wasn't letting Shiraishi get to him, that you're not actually a threat, but you're now a problem, so you need to stop. It really highlighted how young and petty he was. 

Ben 

I really love the way you sum that up. “You're not a threat, you're a problem” is so succinct. And that's really what hurt him in that moment, he realized he had really fucked up. There's no winning at that point. There's only the huge loss of face on his part. 

Twig 

Exactly. 

And then we got Miyata jerking off to Iwanaga’s face in the shower. 

Ben 

It was really accessible sexuality in this show that was actually really surprising for us because we've been dealing with a lot of cutesy BL lately, it feels like, so it was really refreshing to have these guys have access to their own sexuality and be able to express that and act on it. 

Twig 

There are ways in which sex is handled in BL. Sometimes it's held back to add tension to a story, but it's often also done in a way that makes the story feel puritanical. From episode 1, we knew that they wanted to fuck. By episode 3 they were fucking. 

That just felt so refreshing. Yeah, these are grown ass adults who have had a previous relationship before. They know each other, so there's some level of familiarity there. They're attracted to each other. They want to bone down and so they do. That seems perfectly reasonable. It's actually ridiculous it doesn't happen more often. 

NiNi 

From the moment that Iwanaga sees Miyata again, it's game on. He's like, “Okay, this? This is happening. I don't care what it's going to take for this to happen, but this is absolutely happening.” 

Twig 

He bought that man cufflinks. 

NiNi 

He did what needed to be done, absolutely. He was not playing around. He decided that this is what they're doing and he made it happen. 

Ben

So I think what I really wanna highlight here about this particular show with the second chance component is we were actually super dialed in on how seriously the show was taking that part of the premise. Iwanaga comes from a very wealthy family and he was dealing with some shit and he was like, we're gonna run away. Normal, stupid kid shit. The two of them planned to meet at the train station and get out of there and go make it in Tokyo. A stupid character we'll talk about later complicates the situation by convincing Miyata that Iwanaga is just toying with him. Miyata is hurt and embarrassed by this, and does not show up to go on the train. The two of them end up separated by Iwanaga’s family circumstances, and that was their big break. 

So when they meet up again, Miyata has real beef with this man. And the show doesn't downplay the seriousness of Miyata’s hurt. That was such a real relief. If the characters have done real harm to each other, we do need to focus on the reconciliation that's critical for this relationship to work this time, and that was something that this show was handling so seriously. Even though Iwanaga wasn't actually giving Miyata all the things that we, the audience, were like, he needs to do these things if it's gonna work. His charm was enough that Miyata was wanting for them to complete the reconciliation. 

We don't get second chance like this where the breakup was actually the fault of one of the guys, even if it's complicated by familial homophobia stuff. They were serious about each other at the time, but Iwanaga was doing this playboy shit even then. And so Miyata can't feel secure with him because it's the same bullshit again. I like that their 30 year old selves were not fundamentally different from their younger selves. They were just more experienced. 

Twig

The last thing on my list of when I was still really vibing with the show is the “feelings-off,” as I like to call it. Miyata challenged Iwanaga, “You never felt as strongly about me as I felt about you” and Iwanaga said, “Try me.” And so Miyata challenges him, “Did you ever cry about me into your pillow? Did you think about me when I wasn't there? Do you jerk off to me, ‘cause I did.” He gives him four or five things to say, “Were you this embarrassing about me, because I haven't seen you be embarrassing about me.” And Iwanaga says, “Yes. I was.” And that's finally the thing that allows Miyata to give him another chance. 

00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work

NiNi 

So we build all that up. We're having a great time. Everybody's vibing with the show. And then it all turns. 

From the time that the family started showing up, that was when the show went, to me, off the rails. I was just like, all of this is interesting, but not the same story that they were telling all the time. 

Ben 

It was confusing. We were in this really solid second chance romance arc where we were focused on the guys rebuilding their relationship with each other. And then it feels like they didn't know what to do with the guys once the “fuck you, don't touch me” barrier falls away. They immediately complicate that by trying to reintroduce Iwanaga's family trauma as this sudden barrier. 

This is the common theme with the two shows that we’re gonna talk about, introducing contrived bullshit barriers to keep the characters apart and fuck up their ability to talk to each other when the entire arc is built upon these guys improving the way they talk to each other. That's the real fundamentally unsatisfying aspect of all of this. I'm usually a defender for the way people interact in Japanese cinema. We talk about trying to bring a level of cultural competency to watching Asian media, having been raised in the west. Respect the way that these cultures handle some of their communication protocols when they're engaging with each other. We talk about respecting the way honorifics work in these languages and how that impacts the way these people talk about each other. Listening to some of the tones they use with each other, about how certain terms immediately signify things, and these things don't always translate well. You just have to be able to hear and understand these things. I don't really wanna give these two shows that we're gonna to continue talking about here a lot of credit for this. 

This show was in the middle of a really satisfying second chance romance arc of rebuilding a relationship and then completely throws that out the fuckin’ window. Iwanaga is now the male scion of a wealthy family that disowned him for being a homo, but now needs him to come back because his sister is like, “Yeah, fuck all this Japanese nonsense. I'm marrying a foreign man and we're gonna r-u-n-n-o-f-t. That's fine as an arc on its own, but I kinda wish we had like an extra episode or two for these guys to move further along their arc before we introduced that, and it was doubly frustrating because Iwanaga immediately regresses in a way that is not satisfying because he isn't our main character. If Miyata was the one who was suddenly regressing, we have been in that man's head. We were in the shower when he was beating his dick to this dude. We get it. We know what this man is going through. So if he were the one to regress, we would be down with it. We would understand the emotional complexities that he was facing. But the difficulty with Iwanaga being the one to suddenly back off in the middle of all this family nonsense is we never understood the family nonsense. So reintroducing that with this shit heel of a cousin who really wants to fuck Iwanaga was just so deeply unsatisfying, and honestly kind of offensive, because they don't even dwell on it. They're relying on the shorthand of us just going, “Well, they're gay, right? Homophobia. Whatchu gonna do?” 

NiNi 

[laughs] What I was gathering the story was leading up to the family coming in at that point in time, is that at this point in the story, maybe their romantic feelings had gotten ahead of their commitment. So they're feeling a lot of things, but they haven't talked about a lot of things. They haven't decided what they're gonna do or who they're going to be to each other. They're just sitting in the moment enjoying being together, enjoying having sex and all that kind of stuff. But they haven't really decided what they're gonna be. And then all this family shift comes in so you're just like, oh, okay, they're out over their skis. They don't know what they're doing. All this stuff is happening at exactly the wrong time because it's throwing them back into a history that they haven't really dealt with. Okay, this is good. 

But then instead of focusing on that, they focus it towards Iwanaga’s family and what actually happened back then and how it affects Iwanaga, and that doesn't really work? I don't care about that at this point in time. I want to know what's happening with Miyata and Iwanaga’s relationship. 

Twig 

I think there's room for where we could have cared about it, but we weren't given time or space. There's a story there of Iwanaga so alienated from his family that he wanted to run away with his boyfriend, and they found out about it, and he took all of the blame and didn't let anyone know who Miyata was so that he wouldn't get in trouble. And so his family disowned him. He was cut out of the family registry and cut out of his family’s life. There's a really tragic story there and we're given almost no time to sit with that or care about it. His hurt isn't given any time. 

Instead, we just find out that Iwanaga made the decision to let Miyata think he was the butt of a joke and stay heartbroken for years, decade, rather than admit that Iwanaga had family problems when they were kids. And then we see him be willing to let Miyata go again for the exact same reason as adults. And so all of the work we'd seen Miyata do to process what had happened in their relationship in the past and decide to trust Iwanaga again. Iwanaga betrayed that trust, frankly, by not allowing himself to be vulnerable with Miyata. We find out in the very last episode that Miyuata actually fell in love with Iwanaga in a vulnerable moment, he saw him crying alone on the pier, and that was where his feelings turned to love. So we know that Miyata cares about Iwanaga as a person who is not perfect, and he wants Iwanaga to be less cool. And Iwanaga has not learned the lesson. 

So, I left this series feeling like I can't trust this relationship to continue in any other way than exactly the way it's happened twice before. It's very frustrating. 

Ben 

There’s this moment in, like, episode 5 or 6 where Miyata goes and confronts Shiraishi, who decides to stop being a bitch at the final moment. Why? 

Twig 

I was disappointed. 

Ben 

He should have been a bitch the whole time. [laughs]

Twig 

I just needed to see this man be mean to Miyata one more time and they didn't give me that. 

Ben 

That's the point, because Iwanaga never has that important vulnerable moment with Miyata. The emotional reveal has to come from the not-rival, which is not satisfying.

You know what? I'm not done bitching. Let's talk about what the show thought it was doing with the cousin. I feel like the cousin is meant here to be the stand in for what trying to be queer and closeted inside of this family does to you. So we get this vile man in Sugimoto who is just so gross and playing these goofy, manipulative games trying to achieve some sort of position for himself or his branch of the family. Is what I think they thought they were doing? It did not land for me at all. 

Twig

Yeah. At some point, it seemed like we were supposed to believe that Sugimoto was secretly on Iwanaga and Miyata’s side the whole time. And he was, like, testing them and that test was supposed to be some sort of thing that they should be grateful for. I was like, no. 

Ben

I'm gonna do that the next time I get called on some bullshit. You passed the test!

[all laugh]

NiNi

I legit don't understand, like I actually don't narratively understand what happened there. Not just in terms of what they thought they were doing thematically, but narratively that whole part of the story is so confusing. 

Ben

NiNi is correct. The first four episodes we were like, “This is a banger. This is gonna be a 10. We gotta tell all the other girlies you need to watch this.” Episode 5 happens, we were like, “Whoa, what the fuck?” And then by the time episode 6 ends, we're like, “Never mind, girls. You don't need to follow us in this one.” 

Twig

Shiraishi and Sugimoto have the same role and arc in that final episode. 

Ben

Like, we already had a bitch. We didn't need another one!

Twig

Two bitches is too many bitches. [laughs]

Ben

And they didn't even team up and have, like, nasty sex or something. 

Twig

Oh my God, I could have forgiven everything if that had happened. 

NiNi

First of all, “Two bitches is too many bitches” is perfect, but the other thing is it feels like they thought they needed to have a bitch in the past and a bitch in the present. 

Twig

Do you want me to tell you my theory? 

Ben

Oh, bestie, I want to hear all of your theories. Go for it. 

NiNi

Tell us. Tell us. Spill the tea. 

Twig

So I tried really hard to find the manga for this because I needed to know what had gone wrong in the adaptation and I couldn't find it. If anyone out there has it, please send it to me. What I do know is that there are three volumes and that it's still ongoing. One of the things that Japan likes to do, usually one of its worst mistakes when they do an adaptation, is they try to squeeze together at least two volumes into what should be one volume series adaptation. And so we get one really good arc, and then an entire volume or two squeezed into the very end, feeling rushed because they are rushed. So that's my totally uneducated, but based on experience, guess about why this felt like two different shows and two different arcs. Because it probably was? 

00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

Unfortunately, that is gonna end it for this show. I really want you all, if you've taken the time to listen to us, to really understand that…end of episode 4, we were like 10s, 10s all around. This show is doing some great shit. There's some hot messes here that need to be resolved, but the way that we're being led through this with these characters, the way they're talking to each other, the way we're in it with them was so, so satisfying. Before this show shits the bed. 

I am a queer cinema critic who really loves BL and the role it fulfills in the global queer cinema landscape. My goal is to connect other queer people to meaningful stories that they can enjoy. And sometimes that means that we have to say a show really fucked up, guys. If you do watch it, please understand that we loved the show for four episodes and then it transitions in a way that is not satisfying at all. But the first four episodes were still some of the best shit we've seen in a long time. And with that in mind, let's rate this motherfucker! 

NiNi? 

NiNi 

I get to go first. Oh me, oh my. 

Ben 

We love J-BL, so you get to rate without us giving our ratings. [laugh]

NiNi 

I will give this a 6.5. Disappointing me at the end is always gonna hurt me more than something that was wobbly from the start. 

Ben 

Twig-tea? 

Twig 

I gave it a 7. After I first finished it I gave it an 8, but the longer it sat with me, the madder I got. So I’ve downgraded it. 

Ben 

It is also a 7 for me, because where this show goes wrong is very obvious. I think BL viewers would learn a lot about the genre from watching this and understanding where some of us have come from. With that in mind, I'm giving this show a 6.9 from The Conversation because the sex was good in this show. 

[NiNi and Twig laugh]

NiNi 

Producer privilege rearing its head, I see you, I see you. 

Twig 

We didn't talk about how pretty Iwanaga is. 

Ben 

You know, we have not simped over these men. Let's talk about how fuckin’ beautiful Furuya Robin and Hasegawa Makoto were. Holy shit! We have needed some older guys in J-BL—older being 30, for fucks sake. [NiNi laughs] But these guys are fucking beautiful. 

Twig 

He put on his reading glasses and I [goofy voice] swooned. 

NiNi 

Hasegawa Makoto was a delight to look at. 

Ben 

Holy shit! As we're recording this, it is Furuya Robin’s birthday. Happy birthday, sir. 

Twig 

Happy birthday! 

NiNi 

Happy birthday, indeed. Keep aging like fine wine. 

I'm so mad, though, this show was at 10 right up until, like episode 5, and then it went from a 10 to 6.5. 

Ben 

It really was. NiNi’s rating is not off. If I didn't think the show was useful to talk about for people, I would have given it probably a 6.

NiNi 

Love is Better the Second Time Around gets a 6.9 from The Conversation, recommended with severe caveats. 

00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started

NiNi

Let's move on to the next show that disappointed us: Living With Him. Ben, what is Living With Him about?

Ben

[deep sigh] Living With Him is about how we will never get the roommates BL that we deserve. [NiNi laughs] All of the energy that we were supposed to get out of roommates BL was lost to the Philippines during the quarantine period. We blew all of that energy on lockdown stories. Goddammit! 

Living With Him is about two college freshmen who are going to live together because they were once childhood friends, and their moms think it might be financially beneficial and emotionally beneficial for the two of them to reconnect, since they're both going away to start school away from home and they would like for them to have someone to live with that they also know. We're primarily following Natsukawa Ryota, who is so excited to be going to college. He has dyed his hair brown. He is no longer gonna be doing house chores and taking care of his little sisters. He is ready to spread his little wings and figure out who his actual personality is going to be. He is living with his childhood friend, Tanaka Kazuhito, who is obviously gay and obviously has had a huge crush on Natsukawa for a long time. Kazuhito is also dealing with some major changes in his life—he was a national competing level baseball player in high school who can no longer play baseball due to a shoulder injury. It's very clear that Kazuhito has feelings for Natsukawa, and Natsukawa picks up on this fairly quickly, particularly because all of Kazuhito's friends are being real shady about it. 

And I was really excited about what this show was going to be, because this was about two childhood friends reconciling and dealing with this major thing between them. What was really enjoyable about this show—now that we covered the premise of two childhood friends moving together, one of them has a crush, the other one picks up on it—is they talk about this crush in episode 3, and we were primed for the rest of the show to deal with this crush being in the open and reconciling what that change in your relationship is gonna look like. 

Where this show goes wrong. After episode 3, episode 4 is them being awkward around each other—a completely reasonable reaction. They come to some sort of agreement by the end of that, and decide they’re going to go on a trip together in episode 5, but they do nothing with that. Episode 6 is a useless fuckin’ flashback episode about shit we already knew to lead into the seventh episode where Kazuhito decides to preemptively reject himself for Natsukawa's benefit, who suddenly can't open his fuckin’ mouth. Into stupid forced separation nonsense for a whole fuckin’ episode and then Japanese track star run for no reason, don't link up with each other, and then pick up episode 8 not dealing with the failed Japanese track star BL run. And we end on this perfunctory note where they wanna suddenly get us back on track in the finale. 

Gone on an extensive ramble there. I apologize for you having to edit that, NiNi.

NiNi

I was just lettin’ you cook, fam.

Ben

I would like for you to unpack your experience coming behind us and catching up with our disappointment.

NiNi

As usual, when it comes to the shorter BLs, I like to binge, so I started Living With Him loving everything about it, loving the emotional core of what it is. One of the big things that really got to me is that they do, throughout the show, have flashbacks to their childhood, and there's a lot of good The Knowing content in there. I was just like, “Oh yes, this is so good. He's been feeling this way for such a long time. We're gonna delve into that. It's gonna be so good. It's gonna be so emotional.” [sigh]

And then they don't really do anything with that. For five episodes, the show had me. Kazuhito is teasing Ryota, saying-not-saying the thing. Ryota basically figures it out with the help of Kazuhito’s friends. He's now starting to think, “Okay, well, what is this?” To have a conversation about it. And then you're getting into episode 4 and episode 5, where they’re turning these things around in their heads, and then the last thing that happens in episode 5 that I really responded to, they have like a physical movement where he tells Kazuhito “You can hug me,” basically. And that moment was so heavy. It was so good. And I'm looking forward to having the outgrowth of that moment. And instead we get a fuckin’ flashback. [laughs] And then we get weird sort of casual-homophobia-not-homophobia from Kazuhito's mother.

Ben

Worse, we got compulsory heterosexuality.

NiNi

And then it's like that didn't happen in the end like, okay, that's a digression that we went on. We don't know why we did that. We're going back to the main story now. But now I've lost the emotional thread. They're doing all this stuff and it's cute or whatever, they decided they're going to be together, great, but it's not landing anymore. They've lost me. They've broken the tension. They've broken the emotional thread. I don't feel it anymore. 

Okay. So, Ben and I have both talked a lot. Twig you step in here. What are your thoughts about this? How did you feel that the show went wrong? What did you think the show did well?

Ben

Walk us through your process, Twig.

Twig

It’s so, so bad. [laughs]

Ben

Walk us through it, bestie.

Twig

All right. Okay. I was so invested in these two. We start with Natsukawa and the show sets up so well that he's excited to be on his own, and he's unsure about his childhood friend Kazuhito being there. Kazuhito is immediately weird in ways that throw Natsukawa off, and which the audience, or at least the gay audience, immediately clock as, “Oh, this man is gay and catty about it.” NiNi, you called it teasing. Oh, it’s more than that. I was having so much fun with Kazuhito and the way he was like, “Mmm. I wonder what it could be. Why would girls always be unhappy with me as their boyfriend? I wonder.” This man. [laughs]

NiNi

It was so good. He was basically like, “I am trying to tell you in every way possible that I am A) gay and B) into you, and you are just not picking this up, sir.”

Twig

And he was mean about it in a way that wasn't mean mean, but when they go on their adorable not-date, which was some of the best domesticity we've had in a while, Kazuhito says to Natsukawa, “It's all right, you wouldn't get it.” The way he was just calling him out for being obliviously heteronormative without actually calling him out, it was beautiful. And the best part about that was he was wrong. Natsukawa did figure it out, and so Kazuhito being so sure that Natsukawa was too straight to get it, actually blew up in his face in a way that I loved. 

The way that they were so honest with each other and the way that they cared about their relationship, this is one of the things that this show does really right about friends to lovers. Even though they're a little bit unsure with each other cause they haven't talked in a while, they still really care about this relationship between the two of them, and they don't wanna fuck that up. But rather than not fuck it up by holding it all in, they actually talk to each other about it ‘cause both of these men have an understanding that communication is actually important. Both of them say to each other at one point or another, “I think you've misunderstood something that I said. I'm gonna clarify that.” Or, “I said that that was a joke, but I was actually lying about that. I did mean it.” The fact that we got to a place where Kazuhito owned his feelings and said, “Listen, tell me if you're uncomfortable, but I'm happy to just keep things as they are” and Natsukawa immediately empathized with him and said, “Wow, this must have been so hard for you. Is there anything I can do to make this better for you?” That was beautiful. It was such a loving moment, even though it wasn't romantic yet? Their relationship was so good and then the show fucked it up so badly. [laughs]

The other thing I loved about this show, before I move on to why I'm so mad at it, was the way they used the friendship group to establish that Kazuhito had clearly talked about this man before, when he wasn't around, [laugh] to the point where his friends recognize who he was and how important he was to Kazuhito. So they met Natsukawa—they treated him like he was a minor celebrity. Like, “This is Natsukawa?”

NiNi

He reminded me of What Did You Eat Yesterday? When what's-her-name finally meets Kenji.

Twig 

Oh yes! Yes.

Ben

I would like for you to note that NiNi is the one who brought up What Did You Eat Yesterday? this time, not me. [Twig and Ben laugh]

NiNi

Duly noted. It's delightful. He doesn't even have to introduce himself. Yoshida is like, “Oh, you must be Natsukawa.” And he's like, “What?” and she's like, “Shhh shh shh shh shhhh. Don't worry about how I know that.”

Twig 

Kazuhito gets called away and he's like, “Come on, guys. Let's go there.” And they’re like, “No, we're good. We're gonna stay and talk to this man.” [Twig and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

The gossip is here! Why would you go where you are, this is where the good stuff is.

Twig

[sigh] And then.

00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong

Ben

And then! Take us in, Twig.

Twig

Okay, so, episode 4 happened, and I did appreciate sitting with the awkwardness after the intensity of those emotional conversations and the uncertainty of what things were gonna be like now. That actually felt true. But the problem was it started to feel slow. This is where I think it started to drag. 

Episode 5 was clearly filler. We go camping. Okay, there shoulda been a kiss. I'm still mad about it. What it seemed like they were trying to do with the camping episode was establish some of Natsukawa's insecurities. He wants to seem a little more competent and cool in front of Kazuhito. That already felt a bit weird to me because in their apartment he's the one who cooks, so he already has established himself as someone who does things that Kazuhito can't. He also in the flashbacks, in the earlier episodes to their childhood, was established as the one in Kazuhito's life who didn't see him as perfect. Who liked him as he was and as not perfect. So for him to suddenly be caught up in Kazuhito as a perfect guy didn't feel true to the character we'd gotten to that point?

NiNi

I felt like this episode was really about Natsukawa trying to flirt. I feel like Natsukawa has certain confidences, but the insecurities that Natsukawa is dealing with here are about his romantic potential. It's not that he sees himself as smaller or less, but it's more like when it comes to romance and sex and all those things he doesn't feel as confident in that way.

Twig

I agree with you, which is why it was so weird that so much of the camping thing was about how Natsukawa learned all of these camping things so that he could give Kazuhito a good time and then couldn't get the lighter started and so they had to rely on these girls. It felt like they were focusing on the wrong parts of him that he didn't have confidence in.

NiNi

But if he's trying to flirt with Kazuhito in this way, then maybe it's more like, “I'm trying to flirt and I'm failing at it” kind of thing.

Ben

See and this is where things could have been really interesting. Here is the problem: Natsukawa wanting to take care of Kazuhito as his primary way to respond to their situation made total sense. The only skills he's really developed outside of studying are domestic chores. Being unable to deliver on that front when they went camping was totally reasonable and there was something potentially interesting there, but they don't really deal with that properly. There's this actually kind of satisfying moment at the end where he says plainly, “I want you to rely on me more,” that lands pretty smoothly from where we were in episode 3, where he was like, “You must have been holding this for a long time. How do I help you?” And ending on “rely on me more, dummy,” was absolutely fine. 

The big problem for me was episode 6. If the thematic point and the thrust of episode 5 is “rely on me more, dummy” the byproduct and answer to that in episode 6 should have been that man waking up and saying, “I've always relied on you.” But instead, the show backs off from them entirely by having Kazuhito break up in the next episode because they don't know what the fuck else to do. I guess. The natural response to that fucking long-ass flashback telling us that this man has always thought about this man, that he has defined a huge part of his adolescence, was for him to wake up and say it. And he doesn't. This leads to the finale episode where finally he says what he has to say and Kazuhito's like, “This is the happiest moment of my life. Let's dead fish kiss” and I'm like, absolutely not! This man has been horny for 10 years. I need to see that being released now. 

The thing about me with this is, like—Shan and I joke about this. We are real haters. But like a big part about being a hater is being a lover! You love these shows. You love what they do really well, and where they fuck up is so obvious sometimes. The obvious fuck up of this show is Ryota saying clearly “rely on me more” and then Natsukawa not talking to him for basically two episodes after that, the end of episode 5 is a very clear request from one of our romantic leads to the other that the other romantic lead does not respond to. The guy who has been in love with this man the whole fucking time receives a direct request from him. The guy who was apparently the reason why he was able to get his fucking life back together, and he does not respond to that clear stated request, and because he can't respond to that, it shuts down Natsukawa's arc for the rest of the show about who is he beyond caring for other people. It's so deeply unsatisfying.

NiNi

Twig, in terms of where it breaks down for you, is that similar to where Ben's talking about or do you have a different place where things start to break down?

Twig

Episode 6 is definitely the waste of an entire episode, just illustrating things that they'd already told us through conversation. Show, not tell, but there's no point in showing us what you already told us. That's a waste of time. Natsukawa, his arc got completely fucked up by all of the wasted space in this show. That's why it feels so confusing and unsatisfying, because the order of what he goes through internally no longer makes any sense. 

What we see him do in this show is he starts confused, uncertain about what's going on with Kazuhito. He has a realization about what's going on with Kazuhito, and they have the conversation about it. He has time to reflect on it and think about what his feelings are. He accepts his feelings. We see him realize that he likes Kazuhito, he wants to be with him. Then we see him hesitate about that, “Because I like you, it's actually really hard to tell you,” which is not how they've been communicating to date, but okay. And then he goes from that to concern about homophobia, which makes no sense to have as a thing to happen after you've already gone through acceptance and hesitation. And then it gets resolved. It was a confusing clusterfuck because it didn't make any sense, and the only reason why his arc happens that way is because they had those two filler episodes of his acceptance and hesitation in the middle that weren't in the manga. I did read it to figure out what the hell went wrong.

Ben

Twig, walk us through the experience you had reading the manga to get some clarity.

Twig

A lot of the things that I thought didn't necessarily work or I was confused by in the show, worked perfectly in the manga because of the order in which they happen and the lack of space between them. Natsukawa’s arc in the manga is, he reunites with Kazuhito, is confused by what's going on with Kazuhito, he has a realization and the conversation with Kazuhito about it. He's left to think about it. He immediately goes from that to his concerns about homophobia and then it's resolved. 

So all of the moments where he realizes he feels good with Kazuhito, he wants him in his life, he misses him when he's not there, those happen after the concern about homophobia. It made a complete difference. Things that I hated in the show worked perfectly well in the manga because they made sense in terms of an order of events and the emotional arcs that people went through. It was a really good illustration of understanding the overarching arc you're telling and not just the moments, because they kept all of the moments of the manga, they're all in the show, but by moving them around a little bit and adding so much in between them, it completely changed how they landed for the audience.

00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings

NiNi 

The show feels like it wanted to touch on a lot of things, but it also didn't want to touch on a lot of things, so we get some of Natsukawa’s arc regarding the way that he feels about having spent his teenage years looking after his sisters and some of the things that have come out of that. His family is a decently big part of the show. And there's some things there with his mom and how his mom may feel guilty and like she needs to make up for certain things. And then his sisters are still asking him for stuff even after he's moved out. They're still buggin’ him all the time. There's stuff in there that's swirling around, but it never really gets concretized. 

And then there's stuff around Kazuhito's mom that again, swirling around and never really gets concretized. And I just feel like the show wanted to do all of these things, but they weren't serious about any of them. And then they spend all this time in the middle, these two entire episodes, pulling in a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with any of this. 

Twig 

I wanna pick up what you said about the parents. The show spent time with both Kazuhito and Natsukawa’s moms. We Natsukawa’s mom clock immediately that there was something wrong with Natsukawa because he was making something deep fried, which is a sign that her son is going through it. And I thought that was a really beautiful way of showing that his mom understood him. And then we got the conversation with Kazuhito's mom when the comphet happens where Kazuhito's mom asks Natsukawa to let her know if Kazuhito meets anyone so that she can find out about his love life because he never tells her anything. 

And then the final episode, we get a moment with both moms where they clearly clock that something's going on with their sons and seem happy about it? And that was so unearned and made me so angry. Natsukawa’s mom at least seemed like she knew her son, but Kazuhito's mom was fully oblivious, and for her to get that moment of, “Oh good. My son is now happy with his boyfriend” to the point where—I took in these yukatas so that they can have this yukata moment—mmm, to bring that back. 

Ben 

There it is. Sorry, listeners, you won't get to count this show when you list them out. 

[all laugh]

Twig 

So they get these yukatas taken in so they can have them permanently. And nod to, “I know that you guys are gonna be a thing,” a quiet without having to say it aloud, “I'm cool with your relationship” and she makes an offhand comment that Kazuhito is so much happier now, like he was when he was younger, that indicates that she knows that Natsukawa is making a difference in Kazuhito’s life and she's happy about it. 

Where the hell was that energy when she was talking to him before, where did this come from? 

Ben 

You're right, man. After two episodes of angst in episode 6 and 7, they rushed the shit out of the resolution in episode 8. 

Twig 

This show had too little material to work with, was too cowardly to add very much at all. The little bit that they did add was not good, so maybe for the best that they [laughs] didn't try to do too much, but they wanted to keep the main beat in the same place, which meant that they shoved a bunch of filler in the middle that fucked up the entire emotional arc and then rushed the ending. They just shat the bed on it. The part that I was actually really interested in—which is, what is this relationship going to look like once it gets off the ground?—we didn't get any of that. 

Ben 

This show was good for like 30 percent of its run, tolerable for about 62 percent of its run. 

NiNi 

62 percent, that was so specific. 

Ben 

It’s what 5 divided by 8 is. [Twig laughs] It's just math.

NiNi 

Sir. Sir. Sir!

Ben 

Anyway, this is from the same team that brought us Old Fashion Cupcake, so we're trying to understand why the people who have made a five episode banger decided to take what should have been a five episode banger and make it an eight episode fart. 

Twig 

Talk that talk. 

Ben 

This show was so vacant. They clearly ran out of the great source material by the end of episode 3 and did not know what to do for the rest of the show. Spending this much time in one character having intense angst over another character not ending in a satisfying release of that tension is extremely disappointing. If Kazuhito was holding these feelings for 10 years, that perfunctory little dead fish kiss was so unsatisfying. I rebuke it. 

NiNi 

We shall not speak of it. 

Twig 

The one thing that did keep me going through that last episode were the performances specifically of Sato Ryuga and Sakai Sho. The performances in this show were good and I would like to see them in something else. 

Ben 

I would very much like them to try again. 

NiNi 

I absolutely agree, even through all the nonsense I think that the acting was solid and I would like to see these boys do something again. [sigh] I don't wanna talk about this show anymore. 

Ben

Let’s rate it!

NiNi

[laughs] Let's rate this sucker. 

Ben 

It's a 6. It's a 6. It was not exactly offensive, but this show made the egregious sin of being boring. How do you make a Japanese BL boring? That is the reign of Thailand, with its 50 to 100 fuckin’ minute episodes. 

[Twig laughs]

NiNi 

I'ma let you cook. For now. 

Twig 

The worst part about it is it's so close to being so good. You can almost fix it just by watching 1-4 and then 8. 

NiNi

No.

Ben 

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

NiNi

No.

Ben

No.

Twig

No?

Ben

[laughs] No. Absolutely not. 

Twig 

Ha! [Twig laughs]

NiNi

I would be right there with you normally, but 8 is not good. 

Ben 

I love you, Twig. [laugh] I will be back-to-back with you against anyone in this fandom. But I can't be with you on this, sis. Episode 8 fucking sucked because it doesn't complete either character’s actual character arc! Mm-mm.

NiNi 

It doesn't pick up on the stuff that was going on up to episode 5, and then it also doesn't pick up on the stuff that they were doing in 6 and 7. So it doesn't follow either of the arcs that they were going with. 

Twig 

This is my point. You have to cut out all the shit it didn't pick up on [laughs] and then it's fine. 

Ben 

[laughs] You're gonna make it the five episode BL it should have been.

Twig

That’s what I’m saying! 

NiNi 

No. I'm sorry, even if you wanted to do that, I'm sorry, those lame ass kisses at the end? Forget about it. 

Ben 

NiNi! Rating. 

NiNi 

It was a 7 until this conversation, now it's a 6. 

Ben 

Twig-tea! 

Twig 

Yeah, I'm with you all, it’s a 6. 

Ben 

It's a 6 from The Conversation. 

00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters

Ben 

Both of these shows got less than a 7 from The Conversation, and the conversation about them is different. Love is Better the Second Time Around was actually so fucking good for the bulk of its run and then clearly jettisoned to go be something else instead. With Living With Him, it's very clear that they didn't know what to do with the amount of runtime they had. You can see this show falling apart in real time. This show was not it and it should have been. The potential was sky high and the show really let me down. It went from being a 10 to a 6. That is a terrifying fall. I don't think I've ever had such a turn with a show in my experience in BL. 

NiNi 

So, the thing about these two shows, why we ended up placing them together, aside from the fact that they started strong and flopped. The flop happened for both of these shows in trying to go for a flashback. Trying to go to time prior to the show to tell us… what, exactly? And I think that's the thing that really I'm taking away from this. If you're gonna do a flashback in a story, the flashback has to give you something, it has to mean something, it has to illuminate something. And for both of these shows, I do not feel illuminated by the flashback. I didn't feel like the flashback gave me either new information narratively or new information thematically and emotionally. I just feel like the flashbacks were there because they wanted to flash back to a different time for whatever reason, but there's no real reason in either of these stories for the flashback to exist. 

Ben 

It's because they're making the mistake of not recognizing what western M/M romance understands, that if you're going to break the characters up in a meaningful way, do it at the 60% mark. 

Twig 

I want to pick up what NiNi said, too. The flashback has to accomplish something and we should learn something from it, but also the character should have learned something since, and it should set us up for them to move their arcs forward in a way that makes sense from what we had before the flashback. 

NiNi 

Absolutely, yes. 

Twig 

In both of these cases, the flashback did not fill in the information to allow us to follow that character arc in any way that was meaningful or satisfying. 

Ben 

I'm not always keen on flashbacks in romance. I gotta be honest. The problem with romance flashbacks a lot of the time is, unless you're contextualizing something that the audience has picked up on the whole time, you're just retconning your show. 

Twig 

Yeah, I agree. For the most part. I think sometimes shows seem like their goal is to trick the audience and that most of the time should not be your goal except in very specific genre circumstances. Most of the time, your audience should be able to at least anticipate sort of what's coming-ish and be excited about it. The how and the why is the part that's interesting, not the, “Oh, you did something that you didn't tell me you were doing for the last however many hours of my life.” It shouldn't be a surprise. 

NiNi 

For me, that's not entirely it. I have enjoyed before a midstream flashback that tells me something brand new that I have to go back to the beginning and be like, “Oh a twist!” Like, I've enjoyed a twist flashback before. It's not even a question of that. It's a question of, the flashback has to have a purpose. It has to have a reason, it has to give me something, sooomething that I did not already know. Like I said, whether that's narrative, whether that's thematic or emotional, but it has to illuminate something new for me. It has to have a reason for being there. And I just feel in both of these cases the flashback had no reason for being there. 

That said, I have enjoyed this episode. For many reasons. 

Ben 

It's because we dunked on Japan. That's it. [NiNi laughs] That's it. 

NiNi 

You can't even let me have the fun of saying it. 

Ben 

No, no, no. You don't get to have it. ‘Cause I love Japanese BL. This dunking is me trying to grab them by the shoulders, like James T Kirk grabbing people by the shoulders, and being like, “What are you doing? I need you to get it together. [laughs] 

NiNi 

I am enjoying this episode because sometimes I do feel sort of alone in my little “Eh, I'm not entirely feeling it” bubble on some of these Japanese shows, so it's nice to have company for a change, is what I was saying. I was not trying to shade you. 

Ben 

Here's the thing, let's unpack this. Japanese BL works for me the most often because their romance stories often track for something very specifically queer about them. All the Japanese BL that I constantly bring up on this show has romantic angst that also taps into my very specific concern as a queer critic. And that's particularly why I get frustrated when these shows fuck it up. 

As Twig pointed out, Living With Him introduces a compulsory heterosexuality moment after the character has made the big emotional turn and recognized that he does want to remain close to his friend after he learns an important queer detail about him. That is a huge queer fuck up! The big fuck up with Love is Better the Second Time Around is, these guys went through the task of getting back together and trying to be open with each other and being vulnerable and kind of embarrassing with each other. When the homophobia rears its head again and is gonna separate them, the show does not reward us or the characters for the growth that they've been trying to achieve by letting them have that moment together to become a battle couple. 

That's the real problem with it, ‘cause, like, in a normal fucking heterosexual romance, who gives a shit if the straights are gonna stay together? The whole world is going to help them stay together if they want to, or let them divorce if they don't. We're the only ones who're going to give a shit about each other when the boots come marching again. And so when I'm watching BL, I'm watching from the queer part, and when these shows fuck up on the queer part is when I turn against them so aggressively. That's why you’ve seen Japan not even catch strays this time. I'm sniping at them for these shows because this is not correct. [NiNi laughs]

This is the true fuck up. This is the crux of my disappointment here. They fucked up on the queer front, not on the romance part. I can take it or leave it on the romance part. Writing romance is not as easy as people think it is. People fuck that shit up all the time. But if you can do something that feels queer in a way that feels truly correct to me, I'll be very forgiving about some romance missteps. But both of these shows fucked up on the queer part of their romance arcs and I do not forgive that. 

Twig 

After they were doing so well, that's the part that hurts. They started getting the queer part so right and then got it so wrong. 

Ben 

I truly get you, why you don't always vibe with these shows, NiNi, because they're not always satisfying in that way as romance stories. I totally get you on that. But what always works for me in the shows that I want to advocate for when we get together is that these shows have a real kernel of queer truth that is worth connecting to and worth advocating for for people who want to engage with queer stories. It's why you and I were able to bond so strongly over I Told Sunset About You, I Promised You the Moon, and Bad Buddy. Those shows are satisfying romantically and also as queer cinema. The shows that we both love the most on here are very good at both of those things. But the queer part of their storytelling is non-negotiable for me in a genre about boys kissing each other. 

NiNi 

I hear you. I'm with you. This episode is gonna air right at the end of June. I think this is a great way— 

Ben 

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

NiNi

—for us to—

Ben

Oh yeah.

NiNi

—end Pride month. 

Ben 

Happy pride, bitches!

[Ben and NiNi laugh] 

NiNi 

Because it is important to remember that among everything else, amongst all the love and romance in this genre, that this genre is a queer genre and the queerness matters. 

Ben 

Any final thoughts you'd like to share with the audience, Twig-tea? 

Twig 

I don't have anything to add. That was right. Correct! That's what I have to say to that. 

NiNi 

That is going to wrap us up on Second Rate Second Chance! Twig, thank you so much for being with us. 

Twig 

Thank you for having me. 

NiNi 

We will see you guys next time. Until then, we out. Say bye to the people, Twig. 

Twig 

Dispatch! 

Ben 

Dispatch! 

NiNi 

[laughs] Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace. 

[yes-i-am-happyaspie]

Stucky-sicle

[youchangedmedestiel]

If you haven't read it already:

Here's the first chapter of my Destiel AU fic! And here's the photo that goes with it (there'll be one for each chapter because I'm that insane and it's a great way for people who don't have the chance to do so to travel):

Also just to let you know, I'll post the next chapter tomorrow.

[pernillecfcw]

Summer series ends on a high 🤩

[mindenerwa]

your new favourite duo 💫

[nier-reincarnation-library]

Dimos

[pardonzo-bean]

These books were terrible and yet I could not stop reading them.

I’m ready to start obsessively watching the Prime series now.

[maximof]

baby's first premier league game feat. my group of not sports inclined friends repping afc richmond and me repping gay icon colin hughes 🏳️‍🌈✨

[hurtpeoplex2]

every x-men media ever

episode one

episode two

episode three

episode four

episode five

episode six

episode seven

episode eight

[sweetsweetjellybean]

I'm dying. What's more perfect for summer than a new romance. The imagery was well written. I swear I could smell the new green of the leaves hanging in the humid air.

⬆️Did you have to write him this hot? Really? It should be illegal. He's all I'm gonna think about.

⬆️😵‍💫Steve's hands....Touching our hands....😵‍💫

⬆️ This is what I like to see. So adorably awkward, how can he not fall in love with us immediately?

This whole thing was a breath of hot summer air. I can't wait for these weekly vinegettes to see how this love affair unfolds.

Ps loved the post it!!! Nice touch.

All I Really Want Is You

older!neighbor!widower! steve x fem!reader chap one/ten - a slow burn series of blurbs - updated every wednesday

Welcome To The Neighborhood

summary: There’s a Bandit on the loose.

wc: 3.6k

warnings: 18+ series for eventual smut, 12 year age gap, reader is 30 and Steve is 42 otherwise none for this first installment :) it’s a meet cute baby.

author’s note: Here it is! chapter one of this little slow burn series with your painfully hot and confusing older!neighbor!widower!steve. This story will take place over the course of one summer, told in mostly blurbs of your chance encounters and run in’s with Steve. This series will have lots of pining, flirting, mild angst and eventual smut. Most chapters will range from 1-2k each except for a few. I hope you guys like reading about these two as much as I liked writing it & I hope to see you back next Wednesday! 🥹♥️

Series Masterlist // Playlist // The tune:

End of May —

Highways and state lines blur together like the buzzing of cicadas into busy Chicago streets. A fresh start. A new life. No plan - that was the promise you made to yourself ten years ago almost down to the date.

The excitement outweighs the embarrassment of how long it takes you to parallel park the Uhaul when you find that one in a million spot in front of your new home. Your hands are numb from the constant battle between the wind and your steering wheel. The breeze from the lake testing your strength for the last hour of your drive. The machine creaks loudly when you slam it into park, your legs wobbling like jello when your converse hit the pavement and out of your truck.

The city hits your ears like the humidity on your skin. The exposed parts of your thighs stick together when the thick air wraps around you like an unwanted blanket. Taking a deep breath, exhaust stings your lungs. Far away from the only place you’d ever known, it’s comforting the feeling that washes over you. You didn’t come here with an agenda. A fresh start with nothing to lose. You came here just to be you.

It seems like everyone is on their way to do something, going somewhere they have to be. They brush past you without even a glance in your direction, air pods buried deep in their ears caught up in their own little world. The sounds of dogs barking mingle with cars honking and loud conversations from patio bars the next block over. The city is alive with summer hanging fresh in the air.

The trees that line both sides of your street are lush and green from the moisture. They drape over phone lines, weeping under the heat of the sun. Bumper to bumper cars from all kinds of walks of life make the one way street even smaller. Mini gardens in front of mismatched houses only inches apart. This was your new home.

The three story townhouse is covered in dark green wooden paneling, the floors split up into separate apartments, and you managed to bag the top floor with protruding bay windows. Dumb luck mixed with being on craigslist minutes after they posted, you found the one mom and pop place in the city that fit your budget.

The chipped black metal gate that blocks off the front steps lands at your waist, and runs as a property line against an even nicer house next to yours. One that looks like it belongs to someone, not rented out to a bunch of someones. The bright red brick looks new, and the dark wood steps and patio freshly stained. An oriental rug that matches the house has chew toys with missing limbs littering the front entrance. A porch swing faces you and it sways gently with the wind. Your eyes catch the silhouette of someone on the other side of the stained glass in the middle of the thick mahogany door, and it reminds you to stop being so nosy.

Keys dangling in your hand, you take your first steps through the gate. The metal groans loudly before slamming closed behind you. You jog up the less polished, salt worn steps to your front door and the faint sound of a deep voice catches your ears from next door as you jiggle the lock open. Crossing through the threshold of the entryway you’re not surprised when there’s no reprieve to the heat, but disappointed just the same as you pull at our tank top that starts clinging to your skin. You eye the narrow staircase that curves up leading to your apartment, immediately regretting doing this alone. 

It takes you less time to unload than it did to load up, at least that's what you tell yourself as you round to the back of the open trailer. Sweat is slick against your skin and you thank yourself for keeping the previous owner's couch even if you thought it was an ugly shade of green.You stare pointedly at the four heaviest boxes left and you swear they mock you while you try to catch your breath from pushing your mattress to your room. The words ‘winter clothes’ scribbled sloppily in bright red marker make your face twist up.

“God dammit,”you breathe out running the back of your hand across your forehead trying to rally. Your A/C was already in the window and the cool air inside becomes your motivation.

You aren’t expecting the abrupt shove forward or the feeling of paws on your butt, sharp nails digging into the soft material of your shorts. Then you hear it, his voice.

“Bandit! Bandit - no! Down!”

Your hands hit the metal of the trailer stopping your fall under the weight of what you’re now realizing is an over excited fully grown German Shepherd. Pink tongue out with spit flying everywhere, you can’t help the laugh that bubbles out of you when you turn around and he starts sniffing all over with a tail that wags a mile a minute. High pitched whines leave him when he realizes how much he wants you to play, but he accepts the scratches you offer behind his ears just the same. Body wiggling while also trying to stay still.

“Hi buddy!” you coo, your voice instantly slipping into the embarrassing one you only use for animals.

That’s when you see him. 

He has a few years on you, that part is obvious with the pepper that spots the sides of his honey colored hair and the scruff that lines his sharp jaw, but it only makes him look better. His broad shoulders are wrapped up tight in a white undershirt, the thick cotton telling you it was the kind that cost more than your phone bill. The black shorts he wears have a hem high enough to almost be inappropriate when you swear you see the outline of what’s underneath. The Nike swoosh near the slit at the top of his hairy thighs. His shoes match the color of his shorts, the On Cloud symbol etched on the side flashes in the light. Two hundred dollars on just his feet. 

The trained muscles in his arm flex when he runs a hand through his hair, catching the stray that flops over his forehead when he comes to a halt in front of you. The bright red leash clutched in his fist matches the color of his cheeks. Big hazel eyes meet yours after lingering on your curves a little too long, making you realize you’re showing off just as much skin as him. Clearing your throat, you tug at the bottom of your yoga shorts, willing them to grow just an inch longer with cheeks burning and not because of the sun.

“Sorry, I have a bad habit of getting him excited before I leash him up. I swear he’s friendly, are you okay? He didn’t scratch you or anything right?” 

You’re too distracted by his hands to comprehend his words, tendons moving under taut skin as he hooks Bandit’s hardness. The heat, the move, and the man all getting the best of you.

“Hey -“

His voice brings you back to reality, his brows furrowing over perfect features when he looks at you with genuine concern.

“Yes! Sorry, I’m fine. Honestly! I love dogs. The move in the heat, I think, I think it’s just getting to me.” You smile doing your best to calm the worried look on his face, and you swear you see him flush deeper because of it.

It’s his turn to clear his throat, left hand flexing like he’s looking for a ring that isn’t there. The skin is a lighter shade than the rest of him like there used to be. There’s a beat and an awkward silence before he finally notices the mostly empty trailer behind you. 

“Looks like you’re almost done though, top floor?” He questions rocking on his heels a little, pointing over his shoulder to your window. Your A/C is already dripping water onto the pavement.

“Yeah! You live in the building?”  Please say yes.

“Me? No.” He coughs a little uncomfortable, while you fight to stop the disappointment from showing on your face. “I umm, I actually live next door.” He winces, almost like he’s embarrassed.

“Anyway, sorry about Bandit. Your boyfriend is probably wondering where you’re at.” You don’t miss the way he assumes with a secret hope he’s wrong hidden behind the mossy greens of his eyes. 

“Probably,” you pause, ego boosting when you see him squirm, “If I had one.” You giggle and you hate the way your hips twist a little. 

That’s when he does it, he smiles, with all of his teeth. It’s just as blinding as it is contagious, and it makes your skin tingle, giddiness dripping from your limbs. It’s short lived though, like pieces of a puzzle clicking together you watch it disappear. It’s replaced by the same concern from before only with a new layer of disbelief.

“Wait, honey, who’s helping you move in then?” He looks at you stunned like he can’t fathom the answer he knows you're gonna give.

“The same person that drove here - me.” You grin a little proud with your chin pushed up and it makes his lips twitch, the same smile from before itching to come back.

“Let me at least help with these last few.” He peeks behind you, eyes scanning over your messy writing, “They look like they might be heavy.” 

He teases you just enough to earn a roll of your eyes, but the grin on your face makes him huff out a relieved laugh. Nerves like a first date twist in his gut when he sees the way you look at him from under your lashes.

“I mean, if you insist…?” you trail off, fishing for his name. 

“Steve, sorry! It's Steve, Steve Harrington.” He runs one of his big hands through his hair again, a nervous tell of his you pick up on instantly, before offering it out for you to take.

“I don’t think I caught that, can you repeat your name one more time for me?” Biting your lip into a smile, he narrows his eyes playfully, cheeks blooming, flustered from your words.

Sliding your hand into his, it disappears completely when he wraps his fingers around yours. The softness of his palm is warm like the sun that beat down on you all day and it sends electric currents running through your veins, heart thumping loudly in your chest and you wonder if he can hear the way he can hear it. Minutes pass before either of you make the first move to let go, or at least that’s what it feels like. It’s not until Bandit whines at your feet that Steve finally caves.

“Let me go put him back inside real quick, it’s still a little too hot out anyway and I’ll help you bring the last of this up, tough girl.” He winks with the kind of casualness that makes you question whether you saw it at all and you have to hold in the sigh that begs to slip past your lips.

“I’ll be waiting,” your voice cracks, your confidence slowly disappearing like the sun behind the hazed skyline. 

You try to cover it up by swooping down to give Bandit a kiss between the eyes. Only it backfires, making it worse when you realize how weirdly personal that was to do to someone else’s dog, despite the more than pleased wag of his tail.

“That - that was, oh god. I don’t know why I kissed your dog like I knew him. Or you. I’m - I’m sorry.”  You pinch the bridge of your nose, embarrassment rolling off of you in waves.

It’s not until you hear his laugh, and god is it pretty too, that you finally look up.

“It’s understandable, he’s a handsome guy.” Steve smirks with flirty eyes and it makes you dizzy. 

You can’t stop your giggle, the back of your hand doing little to hide your smile from him. Butterflies breaking from cocoons in your stomach as you watch him walk away to that big house right next to yours.

“What exactly do you have in these boxes?” Steve grunts as he follows you up the narrow staircase with two in tow despite your multiple warnings. 

“Winter coats, sweaters, maybe some boots...” you trail off trying to think, your disorganization more than evident when you open up your front door to even more boxes and bags spread out in disarray.

“You packed your coats and your boots in the same box?” His voice is muffled behind cardboard as the cool air hits, sending goosebumps across sweat-kissed skin. The low hum does something to dull your nerves when you work up the courage to turn around and finally face him. 

“Maybe! Who knows, I’ll find out tonight when I open it.”  

He huffs out a breathy laugh as his broad shoulders almost brush the sides of your door frame. Stepping one expensive sneaker in front of the other into your more than humble apartment, there’s a fleeting moment of regret about taking him up on his offer when your eyes dart around the mess. 

“Where am I puttin’ this boss?” His eyes meet yours from around the side of the boxes, playfulness filling the greens and browns like before.

The muscles in his arm flex when he re-establishes his hold on the box, the sleeves of his shirt getting tighter and the whites of his knuckles start to show. The simple brown leather band of his watch strains, and it makes your throat dry up.

“Ummm.” You shake your head, willing your brain to regain its normal function as you start a clumsy walk towards the direction of your bedroom. “We can put them in my -“

Your shoe hits something hard and you don’t have enough time to realize what’s happening until you're already on the ground. Palms flat against the scratched wooden floor and a sharp pain in your ankle. The culprit, an already half opened box labeled KITCHEN you must’ve left in the hallway when you got distracted by something else.

“Jesus, are you okay?” Steve sets the boxes down, pushing them against the wall and out of the way raking his hand through his hair again, it must be a stressed habit too. 

“Yeah, yeah, my ego is a little bruised but I think I’m gonna survive.” You try to smile, but only end up wincing when you go to push yourself up.

“Here, let's get you on the couch, let me take a look.” He doesn’t wait for your reply, both of his hands coming out to you in an offering. Stubbornness losing for once, you take them.  

He lifts you up like you’re weightless, moving you around with ease as he tucks you into his side. His fingers wrap around the curve of your hip to steady you. He’s warm, the pine of his body wash mixing with the spice of his cologne and it surrounds you in a strong hold. It's a short trip to your couch, his abs moving with each step, and you secretly wish it took just a little longer. 

He’s gentle when he untangles himself from you. Soft palms on your elbows to hold your balance as you sit down. There’s a hint of his aftershave that hits your nose as your muscles melt into the softness of the cushions, the day quickly catching up to you. Eyelids going droopy.

“Sitting was a mistake Steve,” you groan with a light stretch of your limbs, and another subtle wince.

“Well good thing you conned me into helping you with the last of your boxes then.” He waits a second before meeting your eyes as he pulls one of your many boxes over to sit on, his lips twisting up when he sees the way you scoff. 

“Conned you?! You practically begged me to let you help.” Your head bobs with attitude dripping from each word and it makes him grin. He nods furrowing his brows like he’s hearing you, but despite the limited time you’ve spent with him you knew whatever he was about to say was just going to egg you on more.

“I mean, if that’s what you need to tell yourself sweetheart. I remember it a little differently.” He can’t hold in his laugh when you roll your eyes hard at him trying to ignore the newest nickname.

His knees brush against yours when he finally takes his seat, the hem of his shorts rising higher, running tight against the muscle of his thigh. The cinnamon hair that covers his legs tickles you while the sun hits your bay window with just the right light to reveal an expanse of freckles and moles you didn’t see before under his five o’clock shadow and across the bridge of his nose. God, he’s handsome. 

His eyes catch yours like he can hear your thoughts, and for a moment you wonder if he actually can.

“Do you mind?” The teasing edge is gone, his eyes a little more soft when the tips of his fingers tap against your leg.

Your voice is lost in the shift in energy, static filling in the air between you when you shake your head ‘no’.’’ His touch is feather light when his fingers wrap gingerly around your ankle bringing your foot to his lap. He makes quick work of your laces, using extra care when he pulls off your shoe. The pad of his thumb rubs over the bruising bone and you notice the way he licks his lips.

“Does this hurt?” He applies a little bit of pressure to the spot just below your calf, his gaze making you nervous as he gauges your reactions.

“No,” it comes out a little breathless and he exhales deep through his nose because of it.

“How about here?” He does the same thing as before, only this time closer to your heel and you wince. “There it is,” he hums to himself, rubbing soothing circles as an apology.

“Like on a pain scale of one to ten, I’d give it a three and a half or four” you tell him, when really you’re too proud to admit it’s actually a five.

“Three and a half? You can’t use that. Solid number only,” he scoffs meeting your eyes from under his lashes, the forest inside them turning black.

“I actually think I can do whatever I want,” you laugh incredulously, your toes wiggling under black socks in his lap.

“I guess it is your house, I stand corrected.” Steve admits defeat with an exaggerated sigh before showing you his teeth in a wide grin, his thumb still rubbing circles because it never actually stopped. “Do you have an ice pack?” 

Your finger drums against your bottom lip as you think about everything you had packed, his eyes fixated on the way you lightly pull it down with each tap.

“I don’t remember and if I’m being completely honest I don’t think so.” You look sheepish when you admit your lack of first aid supplies to him.

He chuckles lightly, hot breath fanning against your skin with a shake of his head.

“I think I have one, I’ll grab it and bring those other two boxes up. Keep your foot elevated for me tonight tough girl. Unpack your chaos tomorrow.” He mocks the way your jaw drops at his teasing.

“If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were tryin’ to take care of me Steve.” The joke is innocent, at least that’s what you thought. 

Something clicks behind his eyes, the warmth draining from his smile when it falls. His brows furrow and he won’t look at you anymore, his thumb stops rubbing those circles, and your foot is placed gently back on the ground. He’s standing up faster than you can catch your breath, faster than you can comprehend.  The energy shifts to something distant and the warm summer is replaced with frigid winter. He clears his throat with glassy eyes scratching the back of his neck, and you have no idea what you did.

“Hey I’m sorry if I -“

He cuts you off before you can finish.

“You didn’t do anything, It’s me - look, I’m just gonna go get those things. I’ll leave it at your door, please just elevate your foot. You should be okay by tomorrow.” He doesn’t let you respond, long legs taking him out of your place and leaving you to wonder what you did wrong. 

Your head lulls against the back of the couch, staring fixated on the old popcorn ceiling of your living room for what feels like twenty minutes as you replay everything back. Over analyzing his tones and body language coming up empty every time. This was going to drive you crazy.

There’s three raps on your front door, one coming down hard followed by two quick knocks. When you stand up this time, it hurts less, more true to the pain level you gave him as you slightly hobble to answer.

When you open it, your two boxes are stacked where he promised. A dark blue ice pack with a yellow sticky note that says:

beta’d by @superblysubpar 💕 (also made the cute post it for me 🥹)

dividers by @newlips 💗

[gerryland]

[the-conversation-pod]

GMMTV Breakfast Club: On 23.5 and Only Boo!

AND WE'RE BACK!

School's in at GMMTV, but we gotta put two series in detention for not fulfilling the assignment. The actors were charming, but the finishes were...rough. Ben, NiNi and Ginny talk 23.5 and Only Boo, the merits of high school stories, and the specific challenges of telling stories about queer high schoolers.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:01:15 - Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV 00:02:18 - 23.5: Early Reactions 00:14:18 - 23.5: Supporting Characters 00:21:27 - 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution 00:33:42 - 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings 00:38:42 - Only Boo! 00:48:06 - Only Boo: Popping the Bubble 00:58:42 - Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit 01:05:06 - Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings 01:08:45 - Outro: High School Blues

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction: Two High School Shows from GMMTV

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're going to be discussing 23.5 and Only Boo. We brought our friend Ginny along as usual. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny 

Hey folks!

NiNi 

We are talking high school from GMMTV. Ben and I, in the VIIB Awards, we discussed that it might feel like GMMTV does high school a lot, but they don't actually. So it was really interesting to see them delve into these high school stories with, let's say, mixed results.

Ben 

It's kind of weird that GMMTV went from, like, not really doing high school to having two shows running simultaneously. It's kind of surprising from them, honestly.

NiNi 

Lest we forget to point it out, 23.5 is also GMMTV's first GL. I think in terms of that, that they handled it pretty well as a GL.

00:02:18 23.5: Early Reactions

NiNi

Ben, what is 23.5 about?

Ben 

23.5 is a high school GL about a young woman named Ongsa who is moving from Phuket to Bangkok. She's a fan of this girl on Instagram and happens to run into her very early in her new time at the school, develops a crush on her, accidentally befriends her through her IG, but gets presumed to be a guy, and then proceeds to high key catfish this girl [laughs] sorting out her feelings about whether or not she, could possibly like her.

She lives with her parents, her older sister, and their cousin who's the same age as her. Her cousin's very much an easy autism read who ends up in her own romance with her big cousin's friend. We end up in this show dealing with Ongsa's complicated feelings of self-worth and how in her tendency to put her own self down, she kind of lets down the people around her. At least I think that's what the show's trying to do.

Ginny, why don't you walk us through how you felt in anticipation of the show after it got announced a very long time ago.

Ginny 

So long ago. So Milk and Love, the two lead actresses, were, of course, the side couple in Bad Buddy. So it was no surprise that they were announced as the lead couple of the first GMMTV GL. I was very excited just to see GMMTV finally moving into this space. It's been good to see more studios open to producing GLs and GMMTV being one of the biggest, definitely wanted to see them do it. So, without really caring much about what the story was going to be, I just wanted to see them do a GL and do a decent job. I was not super invested in, oh, is this going to be a plot or a premise that really appeals to me? I was just like, let's have some girls fall in love and make a good story. 

It was a longer run up than I think a lot of people wanted. There was a lot of disgruntlement, some conspiracy theory feelings about it that I don't really hold to. I do think they were giving as much to this show as they do to their big flagship BL stories. Was very excited and also nervous tuning into the first episode because this clearly was going to be a weathervane for them to decide how much to invest in the GL side going forward.

NiNi 

It was over a year that we've waited and waited and waited for this. They had a really long shoot schedule. They were shooting this thing for an inordinate amount of time, and I think that for me, added to the anticipation. Because it felt like they were taking their time with it, so I was very excited about that. I like Milk, I like Love, I like June, I like View. I was really looking forward to watching all of them really get into this with a director and a team that I had enjoyed. This is from Fon Kanittha, and Fon did 10 Years Ticket, which is one of my favorite things that GMMTV has done. 

Ben, what about you? How were you anticipating this? What were you looking forward to about it? What were some of your concerns coming into it?

Ben 

I was admittedly really nervous about this show going into it. We had drama in the reactions to this show in just the original casting choices.Fourth and Gemini were originally announced as part of the cast for this, and then, looks like GMMTV shuffled some stuff because they wanted to prioritize the boys' availability for a different project because My School President was received apparently really well, at least enough for GMMTV to make some different decisions.

But there was a lot of drama in the English language reactions about not wanting BL paired boys in this at all. So I was worried from the get go that we were already having fights about the market that they were trying to pull in. And I was really nervous about what GMMTV was gonna do with this. I've bitched on this podcast quite a few times about when I think BL doesn't necessarily care that much about how queer their boys read and sometimes ship is more important than some sort of queer coming of age beat that they really wanna hit. I was really nervous about what that might look like for a GL because we don't have a framework for what that looks like. there's actually not a great deal of lesbian coming of age romance internationally, even, to pull from, and even within Thailand there's only a couple of projects that I can really refer to from like a lesbian film history. And most of those are for college girls. So there were a lot of big question marks for me going into this, so I actually went in with not a whole lot of expectation from this. I'm admittedly not familiar with Fon's work. I did not watch 10 Years Ticket. But I knew that folks like NiNi were really excited and wanted to see what Fon doing a GL would look like. 

So, there was a lot of anticipation and hope about what it could be, but I actually went in with very few expectations about what it might look like as a result.

NiNi 

So, Ginny, having those expectations and coming into the show, what were your first impressions of 23.5? What are some of the first things that you picked up on and maybe really enjoyed about it?

Ginny 

I loved the beginning. There were a couple different ways I was afraid that it might go wrong. One was that it would just feel like a gender flipped BL. Another was that it would be like overly softened and pastel in, especially what is usually labeled sapphic romance these days, frequently things are all very soft and delicate.

NiNi 

[laughs] Vaseline all over the lens and, like, nobody's talking too loud, yeah.

Ginny

Yeah, and I like to see women in stories, and especially women falling in love in stories feel as much like real people with all of the edges that real people have as boys get to do. So a thing that just thrilled me from episode 1 was what a mess Ongsa is. Ongsa played by Milk, incredible performance. Whatever criticisms, and we have many of the show, I think we can all agree that Milk was wonderful in this role and really did a phenomenal job of playing this tense and awkward and intensely self-conscious teenage lesbian that I saw so many people I know in. The way that she falls on the floor after having a phone message with her crush that's a little bit awkward but also positive and the way she would just flail around. The way it felt like she didn't quite know what to do with her body, like she's still growing and gangly and awkward, was just so beautifully done and I really enjoyed it. And it really did feel distinctly like girls as opposed to just, we're gonna do a BL but with wigs on.

I can't even put a finger on it, but there were so many little details that I was like, yes, this feels like young girls falling in love. The way that you feel about a pretty girl in school that you can barely even stand to talk to, and you feel like this giant gangly monster and she's this otherworldly gorgeous creature. So many of those nuances, especially in the earlier episodes, were just beautifully done and I loved them so much.

NiNi 

I feel like one of the things that helped contribute to that feel was the wardrobe. From the time I saw all the ways they were dressed, I was just like, this is what tropical girls in high school dressed like. There's a lot of t-shirts and shorts.

Ginny 

Yes!

NiNi 

It's not fancy, it's not done up. You're at home and you're chilling and you're wearing a t -shirt and some running shorts and maybe you've got socks on because your feet are cold for some reason. It made me think of growing up back in Trinidad because this is how it is. It felt really real. It felt like, okay, they understand girls.

Ginny 

Yes. There's one scene where they're running around the school at night for reasons—they shouldn't be there—but they're all in their little t-shirts. And it's like this slumber party feeling of excitement. And you're close to this person that you have a crush on. And somehow the wardrobe just made it all feel so much more like, yes, I've been there. I know what that feels like.

NiNi 

Ben, what about you? What are some of the things that you enjoyed when you started watching the show?

Ben

I was relieved that Ongsa already seemed to know that she liked girls. And so we get to enjoy Milk playing this human disaster of a lesbian in the early episodes. I often feel like there's a tension with some of the actors about their image. And some of them seem to struggle with having to be cringy or kind of gross. And Milk is not one of them. It's why I think a lot of her characters have such a believable quality to them. The way they move, they feel like they're present in the space. They don't feel necessarily like they're aware of the camera. They're just so focused on what they're trying to feel in the moment. 

I rarely have trouble accessing Milk's characters across the various performances we've been lucky enough to have from her. And I really liked her in the early stages. I liked how she played the absolute mess that was her character. The way she was struggling with same-sex attraction and the idea that reciprocity was not something that was accessible to her. That's a very common queer feeling that I think was captured really well. So I really understood Ongsa's early hesitancy when it came to clearing things up with Sun. And I thought that was really well done.

NiNi 

I feel like I always end up with the 'I as well!' But I too am here to praise Milk. I have enjoyed Milk as an actor. She hasn't had a lot to do yet, but with this role, I feel like she nailed it on from minute one, the very first frame that she's in, I a hundred percent believe her. I believe everything about her character. I believe the feelings that her character has. I believe that she believes that she is this awkward loser who's never gonna have friends or anybody. And I also believe when she stops believing that. 

There's some quality to Milk and her acting—maybe it's the ability to go for the cringy without being too worried about how she looks—she nailed on that character. A hundred percent believable from beginning to end, even through some of the wobbles that we're gonna talk about later on in terms of the story. There was never a point in time where I did not believe Milk as Ongsa and that this is how Ongsa would react to these things happening in her life.

00:14:18 23.5: Supporting Characters

NiNi

Let's talk a little bit about some of the other characters. We've got Milk playing Ongsa, and then we've got Love playing Sun. I struggled a little bit with Sun? I think that it was good casting to have Love play Sun, because this idea of this girl who is so sweet and cute and gorgeous, this girl that Ongsa would absolutely fall in love with, I totally bought that from Love. But I feel like the story didn't expect much more of her? I truly enjoyed Love's performance when she was given stuff to do.

Ginny 

Yeah, I agree. There were moments later in the series where we got to see her dig in and give us something more than this very sweet, kind, and pretty love interest character. I was like, “See, she can do it. Why didn't you give her more to do earlier?” It's hard to talk about her performance because they didn't give her very much to do and the writing was pretty shaky on her character, I think. 

View—playing Aylin the cousin—I've always been a huge fan of View's acting. She's never not nailed a role as far as I've seen and she was also a delight in this.

Ciize, I thought was great. Also sadly underused, but where she was, she really shone. Even though she's smaller than everybody else, she is the alpha. She's the class president and the older sister. Very tired and keeping everybody in shape. Enjoyed her role a lot.

I don't have a lot to say about June.

Ben

Oop! [all laugh] 

Ginny

Sorry, June!

Ben 

What do you have to say about June? Well, she was there. [laughs] Damn.

NiNi 

I find June as an actor quite accessible a lot of the time, but in this I wasn't sure what she was supposed to be? I feel like her characterization wasn't clear and because of that I didn't know where to land on her performance. I feel like I enjoyed it, but then also it felt, not wobbly exactly, but more confused.

Ginny 

I think there was a similar issue as with Love's character, Sun, where they were both there to be the love interest for the awkward, weird character, and they weren't given anything else to do except to be sweet and accepting towards the awkward, weird character. That's a shame. I haven't seen June in anything else, so that's why I don't have anything to say about her. 

Ben 

Oh, did you not watch Dangerous Romance?

Ginny 

I did not. 

NiNi 

Stop it right now. 

Ben 

Did you know?

NiNi

Stop it right [laughs] that a windmill—

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Ginny 

Somehow, I do know that. [laughs]

NiNi 

That's never gonna get old.

Ben 

I will always make time for windmill jokes on this podcast.

[NiNi and Ginny laugh]

NiNi 

June was also in 10 Years Ticket. View and June were together in 10 Years Ticket and that's why I think they were also cast for this, because their characters in 10 Years Ticket were shipped together and I completely understand why. Even though they were not an actual couple in 10 Years Ticket, the energy was there. So I understand how they ended up paired together. So it was very strange that they went from a really solid, I thought, pairing in 10 Years Ticket to something here that felt so, to me in the end, wobbly.

Ginny 

Well, the problem is it was one-sided. Aylin was a great character and Luna, June's character, was just kind of there and they had a weird moment late in the series that kinda soured me on their whole story. But earlier they were very fun and good together. It was just that Luna was kind of just a pleasing backdrop to Aylin's whole situation.

Ben 

I don't think the casting team knows why most of the cast is even in this show. ‘Cause you have a lot of really talented people who are doing the best with the direction that they're being given on the day that they were filming. But just like every one of these episodes, as we'll get into, felt like it was internally fine, but not part of what came before or after it in a really consistent or coherent way, I think Love and June suffer the most for that. 

I think Love's actually really funny and really talented, but I don't think she knew what she was supposed to be doing for most of the show. She felt like she was lost in a lot of her scenes, it just does not feel very grounded. I don't think Love understood Sun, and I don't know that that's necessarily her fault either.

I think June is fine in terms of her ability to work with View but it was kind of a weird set of performances to watch. 

Let me talk bout the rest of these fucking side characters. This show had t4t teacher yuri.

NiNi 

The show had teachers in the school. Two of those teachers are being played by Golf and Godji. And these two teachers are supposed to be having a little side romance. I love a teacher side romance in a school show. However. Dot dot dot.

Ben

It's really frustrating because there was a real opportunity for these two women to sort of model what these younger characters could have. There's the whole hapless quality that Golf's character BamBam has that is probably meant to mirror what Ongsa has kinda going on. But I don't really know that they ever figured out something useful to do with them. It just feels like another beat happening. It doesn't feel like it's in sync with any sort of storytelling that's going on here.

Ginny 

It felt to me like it was just there to be there. There's t4t, yuri, or transbians as my friend likes to say— 

Ben 

TRANSBIANS!

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

I love that! Transbians! That is awesome.

Ginny 

[laughs] It felt like they're saying, “Oh, there's transbians, and that's enough. We don't have to actually make them have, like, a coherent story or more than a few cute moments here and there. I remember distinctly the episode where I realized what was supposed to be happening is this modeling thing. And it was in episode, like, 10 or something. It was so far into the series. But it just didn't come through early enough to have any kind of an impact.

I do like that they gave us those two teachers. I'm glad I would like us to get more transbians. [laughs] But I wish they'd done a better job.

00:21:27 23.5: Frustration with the Writing and Execution

NiNi 

I feel like we're dancing around a little bit like where we think that some of the criticisms of the story are coming from, so let's dive into that. I feel like the beginning of the story, that first arc of Ongsa basically catfishing Sun, I felt like that arc was really strong. Like, I understood what was happening there. And then it gets squishy in the middle once it's obvious to Sun that Ongsa is this person that she's been talking to the whole time that she thought was a guy. 

I feel like once that happens, the show starts getting interested in other things that had nothing to do with what had gone before. It wasn't following on from that first arc. And then somehow at the end they kinda try to dovetail back to that first arc in certain ways while also doing a third arc that doesn't really work? 

It feels disjointed and disconnected. It feels like in each episode they knew what they wanted to accomplish, but the episodes themselves don't link together into a coherent story.

Ginny 

For me, it felt like right up through the reveal that Ongsa was Earth, it felt coherent and I was with it, and at that point, I was feeling like this is a really solid show. And then it felt like they did about four or five episodes that, each one of them belonged to a different story. Each episode was a coherent story in itself, but did not feel very connected to what came before or what came afterward or much of the established characterization. And then at the end they did kind of tie some of the emotional impact of that big deception and reveal in, and Love got to actually do some good acting as Sun talked to Ongsa about her frustrations about how Ongsa kept holding back in this relationship. Which was great, but I was already so spun around like, what ride am I on anymore, because of the four or five filler feeling episodes, that it just really marred the impact.

Ben 

I agree with you there, especially when it comes to Love getting to act later on. I find myself very frustrated with this show's unwillingness to let Sun be mad for more than half an episode. I need, like, a really good boil for a character. I need somebody to be irritated as fuck. I really like when somebody's just fucking pissed about some shit that somebody did. A lot of these shows, I have found from GMMTV, really struggle with that. They're constantly worried about selling ship. So they don't want the characters to be upset with each other for very long. 

But it means that Sun doesn't really feel very human for me. She has such a super delayed reaction to Ongsa's big lie that I was just not exactly feeling her shift. I was just kinda like, okay, I guess. We shoulda done this a couple of weeks ago, but whatever, at least we're sorta getting it now.

I don't, also, understand—why is everyone here? What is the point of AJ's character, Ton? Why is Euro in this if he's not gonna score with one of the twins? Why is Ford here? What was the point of this little gay boy subplot that they put in this? I don't know what they were going for here.

NiNi 

Going back to the Sun thing, I think that the idea they were trying to get across was that Sun was burying a lot of things that then came out in this well of frustration. Part of her character is to be this nice, sweet girl. And nice, sweet girls, they let things go. I feel like that's what they wanted to do with her character, but I don't feel like they wrote her character in that way. The character doesn't feel like a character who is burying things. The character feels like a character who has let things go.

And then with all the other stuff that was happening, because there was so much coming at us. There was this whole idea of Alpha being the big sister and the pressures that that put on her. There was this idea of the teachers feeling pressured to do the best that they could by these students. There was whatever was going on with AJ's character. I have no idea what that was about. And that little runner with AJ's character and Earn's character, Charoen and Ton, I still have no idea what any of that was about.

Ginny 

No idea.

Ben 

I don't like it! That's for damn sure.

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi 

Did not like it. No clue what it was about. AJ, you need to call your agent because they're not doing well by you this year.

There's just all this churn happening in the middle of the story that has nothing to do with what happened before, nothing to do with what's happening after, all is coming out of the blue. But in another show would have really worked, like the Alpha stuff, the big sister stressed out stuff. 

There is a way in which that could have worked, but they didn't really put any emphasis on that sisterly relationship between Ongsa, Aylin, and Alpha and how that might have been altered by the fact that Ongsa and Alpha have been living apart because Ongsa has been living in Phuket with their dad and Alpha has been living in Bangkok with their mom and now the family's back together. What does that look like, now having to take care of your little sister again when you had gotten unaccustomed to doing that? The whole fact that Alyn is their cousin who's living with them. Why is she living with them? What does this mean? How is she integrating into the family? None of that stuff is really touched on. It's a little bit touched on, but not really. It feels like they wanted to tackle Alpha as a character and all these stresses that she feels, but they're not actually showing us the stresses. So it feels like it comes out of nowhere. 

And then everything that happens with Euro's character and Ford's character—just excise that from the show. Why is it even there? Why are they there? Why did they get out of bed and come to set? Somebody explain that to me.

Ben 

Every single week I was like, “Here's how Euro can still win.”

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

Ginny 

To be clear, because this confused me for a while, for Ben, Euro winning is not Euro getting a love interest. Euro winning is Euro being with AJ, specifically.

Ben 

He just needs to kiss one of the twins and I'll be satisfied.

NiNi 

We are big Euro lovers on this podcast. We think he's a great actor who has been overlooked and underutilized and we want to see him win in every way possible. Every way, including getting to kiss whoever he wants—boys, girls, whatever. Let him have it.

Ben 

It always feels like it comes back to ship when it comes to GMMTV. If we wanted to do an Alpha focus episode, we need to open with her as the viewpoint character and narrator for an episode, and focus on Alpha and how she's seeing all of this going on with everything else she's juggling. Alpha is struggling with not being able to understand how to help her sister or her cousin when she can see they're both having big trouble, even as she's trying to make sure they get fed, go to school on time. And she's also trying to get ready for college and she's just freaking the fuck out, like this has the potential to be really good. But it just ends up not feeling that way. 

It doesn't feel like they weren't planning this show it just feels maybe over planned? I'm not really certain. It's a weird experience watching the show and trying to talk about it. You feel like you're being tickled at the back of your head the whole time, trying to follow what the fuck is going on and where this shit is building to.

Ginny 

It feels like they had a really powerful brainstorming phase and then did not carry on to the pruning and organizing. They were like, yeah, and Ciize’s character is gonna have this stress arc, and the teachers are gonna have a romance, and Euro’s gonna have a romance, and AJ is gonna be there.

NiNi

I'm just so mad at you saying AJ's gonna be there. Like, there’s nothing else going on with AJ. He’s just gonna be present. 

Ginny 

You cannot deny that he was there. He was in this show.

NiNi 

He was very there. He was present.

Ben

It very much feels like there were some really powerful single statements they put on the board. Somebody wrote, like, “Big boys need love, too.” And everybody was like, “Hell yeah!” And then they didn't know what to do with it. [Ben laughs]

Ginny 

Right, exactly! It's frustrating!

Ben 

That is the adjective for this show. Frustrating.

NiNi 

I feel like this show had some really clear-eyed ideas at the start, though, and that's the thing that really stresses me out about it. At the start, I feel like they're connecting Mawin's feelings of not feeling good enough and isolation to Ongsa's feelings of not feeling good enough. I feel like that was where they wanted to go with it, but in the end they don't actually go anywhere with it. And I feel like they thought that they were making that parallel all the way to the end with that one and I just didn't see it. There's just so much that the show feels like it really thought it was nailing, like all the Aylin stuff. 

I really enjoyed that idea of Aylin feeling alienated from everybody and not because necessarily of any lack of love or anything from them, just feeling like she doesn't understand them and she needs them to work to be more understood by her rather than her necessarily having to do certain kinds of work to be more understood by them. That give and take. I feel like the show had that idea in the beginning, but then by the end, Luna is pushing Alyin to be more social. And I'm like, but I thought that we understood at the beginning when you were on the rooftop telling her you're not a human, you're a moon, that you understood what needed to happen here. But now you're pushing her to be more social? Like, why? It didn't feel like it connected.

Ginny 

That frustrated me a lot about them because I was really loving what they were doing with Aylin and that kind of acceptance between her and Luna. There's a way to do a, “Now let me help you do some of the social things that you felt unable to do. Let me work with you.” But they simply did not frame it so that it felt like something Aylin wanted. So it comes off just feeling like Luna says, “Well, now we're a couple, so I'm gonna make you be normal.” That's what that sequence felt like to me and that's the thing that soured me on their story. I really hated that.

Ben 

I think my favorite Aylin moment was her taking her own advice and then sending the little letter to Luna.

NiNi 

I liked any moment where it felt like Aylin had a revelation by watching somebody else or the way that other people were interacting doing something, whether or not she agreed with it, and then internalizing that and deciding how she would tackle something like that and then doing it. I like to watch that thought process work with Aylin. But I think at some point, Aylin went from somebody that the narrative was trying to understand to somebody that the narrative was trying to change. And I did not like that.

I love View, I think View is a phenomenal actress. Towards the end of the story, to me, it felt a little bit like she had checked out from the character.

00:33:42 23.5: Final Arc and Ratings

Ben 

I think that's the show. There were a lot of ideas that we were like, hey, this is a good idea. Ope, and it's gone.

NiNi 

We didn't even talk about the final arc with Sun going abroad. The final arc of this show did not connect to anything else, and it tried to tell me things about Sun as a character that had not been laid out in any way before. I feel like they tried to give Love something to do, but they also didn't really trust her with it. And I don't know why, because Love is a good actress. The bits that we see from her where they actually give her something to do in the show, she really nails it on. So why don't they trust her? 

The show just. it's kind of messy, that's not to say that I did not enjoy a great deal of it. The first major arc, maybe up to episode six or seven I feel like that is pretty solid.

Ben 

An evergreen comment about Thai BL.

[Ben and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

Not just Thai BL lately, boo boo. It feels like all of it. We've had some of these problems in Japan lately, too. And I think we've been talking about Korea in this way, as well. Instead of just writing the story from beginning to end, I feel like these writers are getting very excited and trying to do a lot and trying to be like, “Ooh, what can we do that's new and interesting?” How about you just write the story from beginning to the end? That would be fantastic. Thailand is, yes, guilty, but it's been a consistent critique that we've been having across shows, across countries this year. 

All of that said, let's rate this. Ginny, let's start with you. What did you rate 23.5?

Ginny 

I gave it a 7.5. There were some things that I really did like a lot, so I didn't wanna take it too low, but it just really failed to cohere into a good overall show.

NiNi 

Ben?

Ben 

Before I give my rating. Normally when I'm giving you all ratings it's on the scale of, is this worth your time to watch? I will say politically, you should stream 23.5. It is very important that the juice makers know that we want GL. You don't have to watch it. You should stream it. This is not the show that I wanted, but we do need to support this one. 

That being said, I gave the show a 6.5. I don't think this show is genuinely worth putting a shit ton of engagement into. This is not an experience I will be returning to. I don't think the show was very good. The positive things we felt on the front end about how well Milk captured young queer disaster, these are the good things to take with you. But please, please do better.

NiNi 

I slot in right between the two of you. I gave the show a 7. I do think the front end of this was really good. I liked all of the performances, even the ones that I felt that weren't entirely up there, that was more a function of the writing not being there to support what the actor or actress could do. I enjoyed Milk as Ongsa so much, all the way from beginning to end. All that together for me adds up to a 7. It's good enough, but I have some serious reservations about some of the writing.

So, I think that makes me as the person in the middle the actual score for 23.5. So it gets a 7 from The Conversation by the law of averages. It is worth your time from the standpoint of being the first GMMTV GL. It's worth your time from the standpoint of just watching Milk kill this character. Just be aware that the writing falls apart right after the midpoint.

Ben 

It may be GMMTV's first GL, but let's be clear, it's not GMMTV's first lesbians.

GMMTV has had lesbians since they started fucking around with gay people. There were lesbians in SOTUS. There were lesbians in Friendzone and Friendzone: Dangerous Area.

NiNi 

There were lesbians in Dangerous Romance, technically.

Ben 

Wait, what? Were there?

NiNI

We just talked about this!

Ben

Oh man, I blocked that out. [Ginny laughs] I forgot about the teacher plot! Because I was distracted about the knowledge that a windmill—

[all laugh]

NiNi 

And, moving on.

00:38:42 Only Boo

NiNi 

Alright, let's move on to the next show that we're gonna talk about, which is Only Boo. 

Ben, what is Only Boo about?

Ben 

How a gay boy inside of the bubble must remain trapped there, else he'd be forced to face the realities of the cruel homophobic world we live in.

Only Boo is a high school BL from GMMTV about a plucky kid whose mom is a member of the entertainment industry, who has huge aspirations of becoming an idol. He wants to become an idol so bad that he's bailing on classes and exams so he can go to auditions and his mom has had enough of that little kid's shit. So she sends his ass to the countryside to the school she went to so he can get his shit together and graduate from high school. Once he gets there, the very first thing this boy does is spend 500 goddamn dollars on a bike and has no fucking money and gets a—

[Ginny laughs]

NiNi 

I just knew that you were going up—that you were gonna go there in the very beginning. [all laugh] It is actually an important plot point, people, but it is still ridiculous.

Ben 

He has no money and basically gets adopted by the son of the restaurant near his hotel, who also serves food at their school. He's having a little bit of difficulty adjusting but ends up being very fond of the son of the restaurant owner and eventually befriends two other boys who also want to become idols. He is an incredibly fun character to watch, his name is Moo. He's clearly never once thought that people might not like him for being queer and is just so unabashedly joyous about what he loves in his life. He spends the bulk of the first two thirds of the show pursuing Kang, the boy who is helping him, before transitioning to Bangkok to become an idol. 

Complications ensue! Book is there. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

All right, Ben let me come to you first with this one. What were some of your initial thoughts coming into this show?

Ben 

I gotta be honest, I had, like, my similar reaction to My School President on the front end. [laughs] I was like, I don't know who these boys are and I don't care. No new friends. [Ginny and NiNi laugh] It took me a while to warm up to Keen and Sea and that's not their fault. I'm just older and struggle with new actors. 

But I actually ended up really liking Moo a lot really early. It was interesting watching, like, a modern queer kid. Modern queer youth is really fascinating to me. I've talked about this before, like nobody teaches queer people their history. They have to go find other queer people who teach them their history. And so you end up with this thing a lot where a lot of the baby gays, they know fucking nothing. And Moo is a good example of that in a lot of ways. And it feels like his family has sheltered him because they probably clocked who he was really early and they don't want to talk about that sort of stuff with him. So he feels no shame about being queer. He feels no, like, maybe I should dial it back because people don't like or understand that shit. He's like, nah, I like that boy. And I know he liked me, too! 

I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the performances with the sides ‘cause they got—what's his name—they paired him with Aun. 

NiNi 

Ashi?

Ben

Yeah. He's pretty solid. I actually like him. And I really thought he did a good job with gay yearning in the early parts of this show. I had a good time. I really also like the teachers in this. I was a teacher for about four years. And I thought that the way they presented the educators in the show was really well done. They were not cool at all, but they were really committed to their jobs. And they treated these kids with stern respect. They weren't like up these kids' asses all the time about unnecessary shit. But Moo was a half step away from being a delinquent for most of the show. And they were very big on applying foot to ass for that boy to make sure he got his shit together. 

I really enjoyed a lot of the early parts of the show. I thought the baseline cast chemistry across the board was really solid. I thought the actors worked really well together in almost every scene—whether I thought those scenes were the right call from a writing standpoint is another thing, but everybody seemed to understand why they were there

NiNi 

Ginny, how about you?

Ginny 

I don't like fluff in general, I won't seek it out. So I went into this one like, well, we'll see how I feel. Because it was clearly a very cute, fluffy kind of premise and cutesy high energy vibe. And I ended up so charmed by especially Keen's performance as Moo, but really both of them together, Sea and Keen, worked really well together and were written really nicely. 

We noted that it's the same writing team as Cooking Crush had. It did feel similar to Cooking Crush that we've started getting a little bit more sincerity and kindness from characters in how they have their kind of awkward first encounters and back and forth where they're trying to figure out, “Do I like you, do you like me, how do we navigate that?” There was so much sweetness and honesty in how they each approached each other and, like, genuine decency that I found really refreshing. So I was so charmed by this show, beyond my expectations, and really very into it for two thirds of its run.

NiNi 

I love Moo so much as a character. I was not planning on watching this show. As with a lot of the shows that I've ended up watching lately, I have had to eat my words. I started watching it sort of on a whim. I didn't have anything else to do, and by the end of the first episode I was entirely charmed by Moo.

He's just so alive as a character. Keen plays him really, really well. That sense of, not Devil May Care exactly, but boundless optimism. There is no indication anywhere in his affect that he has ever heard the word no despite the fact that he hears it all the time. [laughs] And I find that truly delightful. I find characters who are able to get a no, keep it moving and be like, “I am going to turn this no into a yes, but you don't know that yet.” I like that kind of energy and optimism, particularly in a character who is so young, because that's the kind of character who should have that energy and optimism. The kind of character who hasn't had their heart broken before.

I enjoyed Moo and Kang and how the attraction, the interest was instantaneous and mutual. Because one of the things that I was scared of going into this show was that it would be all about Moo being pushy and harassing Kang, but it was clear from the very beginning that whatever was going on here was entirely a hundred percent mutual and they were both very into what was happening.

I enjoyed Aun and Ashi as Payos and Potae despite me having major reservations about their storyline, but we'll get into that. I enjoyed the first, two thirds of this show immensely. Everything that happened with the high school story. And when I say enjoyed, not just from a standpoint of delight, but enjoyed from the standpoint of this writing makes sense. And these characters make sense and everything that is happening here makes sense. And then, it stopped making sense but before we get there…

Is there a before we get there? What else are we talking about before we get to the turn?

Ginny 

We've given Milk a lot of love and I do want to give her a bit more because she was also in this as a side character playing a completely different person from Ongsa, and also was just so fun to watch in every scene. Give Milk more work. I wanna see her in everything.

Ben 

I will give Milk a compliment as a backhand to the other people. [Ginny laughs] I understand why Milk was here. Why was everyone else?

NiNi (50:46)

Oh my god. [laughs] I also liked Milk as Neth. I enjoyed her characterization. I liked the kind of friend that Neth was to Kang. I enjoyed everything about her right up until a weird thing that happened in the last episode. I think she was delightful. 

Ben 

I'll say this about the Neth character. Neth is always timed well for whenever Kang's caution makes him back off of Moo, and she's very good about making him confront his own feelings so that he can take a step forward. She's used extremely well for that so that the development of the boys’ romance never feels stilted

00:48:06 Only Boo: Popping the Bubble

NiNi 

I guess now it's time to flip the script. Ginny, what did you not like here? How did the trajectory of the show go for you?

Ginny 

So around episode 9, we switch from high school to where Moo is starting to get to live his idol dreams. And Kang has overcome some of his own stuckness that he was in before Moo showed up to go to art school in Bangkok. Very exciting.

Then… they made so many choices around the idol storyline. You know that there's gonna be an issue of him being an idol and dating. That's gotta be part of it with a show like this and with the story set up like this. And I was excited to see that. And every choice they made made me less and less excited. I was feeling real shaky by the end of episode 10. Episode 11, I thought was abysmal, I hated everything they did. And episode 12 was like, now I understand what you were trying to do, but you did it so badly. The final arc simply collapsed on itself.

NiNi 

Some of the seeds of the final arc were sown early on, particularly the Shone character. That character from the very beginning just did not sit right, but the final arc actively offended me. The whole idol arc for me, it was not the wave. They should not have done it. And the reason that they should not have done it is that they weren't intending to do anything meaningful with it. 

There are so many ways that you can do an idol story. It's not even that there had to be any one way that the story went. Idols and relationships, there are so many ways to do that story. The way that they chose was quite possibly the most offensive to me, first of all because it didn't make any sense, and then secondly in the end because it didn't matter and it didn't have anything to say about the idol system at all.

It happened. Moo was sad for a year. And then he got back together with Kang and he went and he said, “I don't wanna sign this stupid no dating anybody contract anymore.” And they just went, “Okay.” What was the point of the last four episodes if it was gonna be this easy? One thing I don't like is you spend a lot of narrative and thematic time on something that in the end is solved easily.

Ben, I know you've been holding back.

Ben 

This show is the end of my ability to tolerate bubble shows from GMMTV. I have an appreciation for the bubble, because I grew up in queer cinema. A lot of queer creators are dealing with a lot of grief and a lot of pain, and this comes through in a lot of the art. And so, this fictional space where homophobia is not an issue and boys can just moon after each other and everyone giggles and tee-hees until they get together can be a nice emotional break from that reality. But the problem I'm having with the GMMTV shows at this point is they are not just staying in the bubble. They keep alluding to the real world where homophobia is a real problem and then intentionally not dealing with that.

This thing they did in the show where Moo doesn't even know, like, the word gay exists or whatever, but Kang feels like he's had to deal with some internalized homophobia. But no he hasn't, his mom's totally cool. But then why is he like this? There was this interesting bit with Kang when they moved to Bangkok, where they're gonna be sharing an apartment together and Moo wanted to be intimate with him, and you could feel like Kang wanted to be intimate with him too, but was shy or nervous about it and didn't want to proceed with it. When you've been in the closet for a long time, actually doing something with someone is awkward and kind of nerve wracking, particularly when they're so confident the way Moo is. And I don't feel like we ever really got any resolution on that. And it feels like the show was only having him be shy because they wanted to time certain things out. 

That's one of the many gay frustrations I have with this show, where there's this interesting thing that feels very gay that the show then does absolutely nothing with, or tells us we were wrong about. Like, I sensed early on that some of Kang's reticence about being queer may have come from his mom. Apparently I misread that, whatever. It also bugs me that they won't tell Moo, like, you can't be an out idol, bro. But then fangirls are shipping Louis's character, Jang, with Pyos later on. Like, you can't have shipping culture and then not address where queer people slot into that. 

The very worst gay offense that this show created was having Moo bond with Payos, particularly over clocking Payos's crush on Potae, and then later on, for whatever reason, Moo decides to make Potae his confidant when he has to go into the closet, and not Payos. I don't understand how Payos, being the first other queer he bonded with that he wasn't trying to fuck, is not the person that he trusts with something important. And this was particularly hurtful for me, because Moo lets Payos think that he's gotten over Kang and has broken up with him after this huge “I'm gonna be with this man” arc. Like how lonely must have Payos felt at that moment? He was already struggling with his feelings that he might never get to be with Potae and then Moo, the strongest gay he knows, is like, I guess I gotta get over Kang, ‘cause you know, we gotta make that paper, bro. It is what it is.

I'm just so disappointed in that. And then there's the whole shit with Shone. Why make your cousin's boyfriend break up with him and then hit on your cousin's boyfriend that you made break up with him that you know he still loves? I was so disgusted with those last two things that it has forever soured the show for me.

NiNi 

The Shone stuff for me was particularly heinous. I am an elder sibling and I'm also a big cousin. To betray that big cousin trust, I couldn't fathom doing that to any of my little cousins.

I felt like Shone had no rights at that point. It's one thing when he initially develops this crush on Kang. He didn't know. Fine. Once you know, how do you do that? To me that breaks all the codes, you just don't do that, that's not a thing that you do. It's wicked, it's cruel, it's mean, absolutely unacceptable. And that was where the show really truly offended me.

The Potae and Payos stuff, Payos somehow going from being Moo's confidant to being on the outside while Potae gets to be on the inside, that didn't sit right with me, but the Shone stuff was really just egregious. I could not stomach it.

Ben 

And they made Moo apologize to him. I will never forgive them for that. I will never forgive them for making Moo apologize.

Ginny 

What the fuck was that with Shone? They had this moment earlier where I thought, okay, this is how we're resolving this. We're leading up to a big issue, but then we're gonna have them settle it by being kind and decent to each other and this cousin loyalty thing. Well, it's a little weird that you felt the need to do that at all, but okay, I like where we landed on this. And then they just have him so fully backstab. 

Purely from a narrative construction perspective, what we said we all love about Moo is he's so confident and so sure that, kind of, the world can't touch him. He's gonna get what he wants, and he makes it work and he makes it charming. He's very lovable in this kind of bullheaded determination mixed with sunny optimism. There were ways to then have him have a rude awakening that would have made sense in the story. Instead, what they did was they have, like, three people talk to Kang behind his back, and guilt trip the kid into breaking up with his boyfriend, And then do the no contact one year time skip, because God forbid we ever do anything different. 

If you want to give me an idol story and talk to me about the problems of idols dating, what if you have them actually deal with any of those challenges? I would not have minded if the story was leading to the company saying, “You know what, this is a bad outdated rule for XYZ reasons. We've seen this”. I wouldn't have even minded if it took them a year to get there. That's fine. But the way they did it was just much too easy, no conflict. Moo was just like, “I'm gonna talk to them.” And then he talked to them and it turned out they were already going to do the right thing. And I'm like, why? Make it interesting. Give me a story about that. Don't just do weird convoluted chasing and pining and this cousin backstabbing situation for an episode and a half. It didn't work on any level.

00:58:42 Only Boo: If You're Gonna Do An Idol Story, Commit

Ben 

This is the umpteenth GMMTV show where the poor kid has to upend their whole life for the benefit of the rich kid. And I'm over it. Kang must suffer so that Moo can succeed at being an idol. This is a very weird, specific thematic beat that this company's shows always go to. And I really, truly do not like it.

NiNi 

That was part of the issue, but the thing that really stuck out for me is that this is GMMTV that did this show. GMMTV is an idol house. That's what they are. Let's just be real. They create idols, they teach them to act and sing and dance and they put them out there in concerts and they sell fan meetings and they sell merch. They are an idol house. And what this show feels like, is that they did not want to catch any blowback from being an idol house. They were in a unique position as an idol house to have something, anything to say about this system. Whether they were trying to defend the system, whether they wanted to upend the system, whether they wanted to make a statement of any kind about the system that they participate in.

And they did none of those things. They gave some wishy-washy idea of, yes, we know that this is maybe probably bad, but we don't do this. It feels so disingenuous. It feels like they are trying to be like, oh, don't look over here. I'm not saying that they needed to take a moralistic position on this. I'm just saying that they needed to take a position, period. They could have taken a cynical position on this. They could have been like, this is where the money is. They could have taken an apologetic position on this, they could have taken so many different directions on a story like this depending on what it is that they wanted to say. And I might have been pissed with some of those directions but I, in the end would have been like, okay that's their position.

Ginny 

I will give, like, half a thimble full of credit for the end line being, “Oh yeah, this idols can't date rule is bullshit and we should get rid of it.” I was gonna feel even madder if it ended with Moo ending his contract because you can't be an idol and be in love and the story being fine with that.

At least they gave a momentary lip service to the, yeah, we don't do that. The other half of my half a thimble full of credit is that we have seen one of their BL actors go very public with a girlfriend and it seems like he was supported by the company in that. So, okay, presumably a little bit of their money is where the tiniest whisper of their mouth is, I guess. But yes, they should have said something. They're in the position to really tell a story about this. They should have said something. If they're gonna do this. they should have done it.

Ben 

Bestie, I respect your ability to give them half of a thimble of credit, I will be giving them nothing because they made the show. They put this in front of us. They're the ones who spent the whole fuckin’ show making us question whether or not Moo as he is could be an idol. I'm not giving them credit.

NiNi 

I feel like I slot in somewhere in the middle. More maybe towards the side of being pissed and it really comes down to the whole Payos story. After the one year time skip he's being shipped with Jang. At the end of the story there's a Potae/Payos ship that they're talking about. And at no point is there any indication that Moo is suffering because this is not quote unquote allowed but somehow whatever is going on with the Payos stuff, we're gonna lean into that. For me, if you make a statement on that, then yes, I give you the credit, but you just put it there and you don't say anything about it. 

Television as a medium exists at the nexus of art and commerce. Television doesn't exist without commerce. It's not like film, where people do it for the love. Television doesn't get put out if there's no money in it. Let's just be real about what TV is. The fact that this show is so mealy-mouthed about saying that, about accepting that that is where it sits. I just don't like it. The art commerce thing for me, I sit with it, I'm usually fine. I can usually look at a show and be like, okay, I can see where they did this for the love and where they did this for the money.

It's why I don't have a whole bunch of trouble with the branded pairing thing. My trouble with the branded pairing thing is always when it doesn't align with what the show is trying to do. But the whole act of casting branded pairs in things, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I prefer to look at the branded pair thing, as, okay, well, in which way did this pair work for this set of rules and in which way did it not? As opposed to being pissed at the branded pair thing, because that's just, the price of the ride. 

But this one, it just bugged me, man. I felt like if you're gonna be so self-referential about the industry that you are in, that you have to make some kind of statement on it [laughs] one way or another. This show just didn't, and I didn't like that.

01:05:06 Only Boo: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

As I said in the Japan episode, telling stories about queer experiences in a respectful way is non-negotiable for me in a genre profiting off of people's titillation about seeing boys kiss each other. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to hold. So, as much as I love Moo as a character, and as much as I liked all of the bits we got to talk about early on in this show, this show fails as a queer narrative in a way that is unsettling, often annoying, and in some ways kinda harmful. And I can't pretend like that's okay.

NiNi

Let's rate. Ginny, what are we rating Only Boo?

Ginny 

Oh, I think I'm coming in a lot higher than you two, probably. I did really like the first two thirds and I think I was not as offended by the end. So I gave it a 7.

NiNi 

Ben, how about you?

Ben 

One of the downsides of me having basically a bad time with global BL since Cooking Crush and Cherry Magic Thailand ended, is I'm now starting to weight endings higher. This is not fun. It is making the ability to watch these shows week to week with other people unfun. The shows start fun and we're like, hell yeah, this is a fun show. And then by around episode eight or nine, we're in various stages of grief [NiNi laughs] and they don't finish strong. We don't get to feel triumphant at the end. We don't get to lift that fish out of the stream and be like, we got dinner tonight, boys! And I'm over pretending that the idea of the show is better than the reality of the show. 

As a result, Only Boo gets a 5.

NiNi 

I am, I think once again, splitting the difference. Because I did have a good time for the first eight episodes of this show. I was offended by the last two. A bad ending can ruin a show for me. It does not always, but it can ruin a show for me.

But throughout the entire show from end to end, I have to say, that throughline of Moo and Kang and their relationship. I just believed them so much. Even when the show is crashing down around them, they are somehow holding together that love story, and making me believe in it.

I want to give it a 6 but I think I'm going to end up at a 6.5 just for that. Moo and Kang and the Moo and Kang love story and Sea and Keen as Moo and Kang are so good.

So what does that leave us? 5, 6.5, 7, what does that one go to? Like a 6.25. I don't know. What is maths? 

Ginny 

We can call it a 6.

NiNi

I'm a whole engineer and I can't do maths.

Ben 

We can call it a 6. I'm calling producer privilege. This show pissed me off for gay reasons and I'm not gonna pretend that the romance makes up for pissing me off for gay reasons.

NiNi

Okay, it's a 6 from The Conversation.

01:08:45 Outro: High School Blues

NiNi 

I wanna talk a little bit about these two shows just from the sense of both of them as high school shows, but also in the sense of them being shows that started out well and did pretty well through maybe half to two thirds of their run and then faltered at the end. When it comes to high school shows, as we have indicated before, we don't actually get as many of them as we think from Thailand.

Ginny

For me, the high school of it all is not the core of either show's problem. That's sort of incidental to just not having a clear understanding of the story it was telling. Did some very charming work with some very charming actors and scenes, but simply got lost at some point along the way.

NiNi 

My overall thinking about these two shows and where they landed for me is I don't know what Thailand wanted to say about high school in these shows or if they wanted to say anything about high school or if high school is just an incidental setting for these shows. What do they want to say about people on the cusp of growing up? What is it they want to say about the high school experience? I feel like that's not something that either of these shows was particularly interested in. Maybe to some extent more 23.5 was interested in it than Only Boo.

Ginny 

23.5 was a high school show and I think one of the big ideas that they wrote on the board was some stuff about high school social dynamics that they occasionally highlighted and then completely forgot about for episodes at a time.

Ben 

The big problem both of these shows have is they don't understand that the crux of a high school show is about growing up, and about how you can't go backwards anymore. The kids have to recognize that properly for the first time. I think both shows are trying to get there, but I think in almost every case, they get lost in the shipping of it all and not in the story that they need to tell. 

Almost all of these characters have broken arcs about growing up. Their energy is not focused on the proper culmination of the individual character arcs. They're focused exclusively on the romance arcs, and they believe that the resolution of these romance arcs is a good substitute for the resolution of their individual arcs. And it really frustrates me watching both of these shows not really landing on a good place about what it means to grow up. Which is for me, what is at the core of high school stories. Let's go back to The Breakfast Club and start over.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

Not The Breakfast Club!

Ben 

I do not feel positively about either of these shows and I'm not righteous about it. I am disappointed and really frustrated. This is not a great place to be with the genre.

I don't know what's going on, everybody. I think we all need to take a good six month sabbatical. Let's have a beach episode as a whole genre, go plant some trees [NiNi laughs] and go to the beach and hang out for a bit and then come back and work on some stuff. We all need a break. It feels like people are stretched really thin. I don't know what's going on, but this is feeling like a global issue at this point. The initial ideas are good, but the execution is not. And then it ends on a flat note or an unsatisfying note.

I am a critic. Talking about stuff with people is more than half of the fun. Watching the show alone by myself is not the bulk of my enjoyment with a piece of media. My real fun with a piece of media is when I finish something and I'm gonna go annoy the nearest person to me. It's like, “Hey, it's time for you to watch something.” [NiNi laughs] That's what's fun for me.

These shows are not giving me that outlet. I don't get to share that with people who aren't BL fanatics like us. Sharing art with people is how I connect to people. And I can't share most of our shows [laughs] with normies because they're like, “This is bad. Why did you show this to me?”

NiNi 

See, that's the difference between you and me. I gave up on the normies a long time ago.

Ben 

I really want the people who watch Young Royals and Heartstopper to connect with BL. So when they finish those shows, be like, what else is there? I'm like, we got the list, girl. It's right here! But like, that list is not growing this year! We need fresh content for the list!

NiNi 

I mean, there is quite a backlog, so I feel like, if they need to take a break, I will understand. 

Ben 

They should take a break. It is summer. Everybody go to a beach. Get some sun.Go have an encounter with a hot stranger. Get your mind right, and then come back. 

We gotta take a break ‘cause this is not working. I haven't been this grumpy since 2018.

NiNi

You are grumpy right now, bestie. 

Ben 

It's not good! We can split hairs and talk about what these shows did good or bad, but in the end, are we saying people should go out and watch these shows earnestly? No. Okay.

NiNi 

We gotta wrap this up. So, that is going to do it for us on the GMMTV School Days episode. We out. Say bye to the people, Ginny.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[primal-slayer]

X-Men: The animated series vs X-Men '97 opening

[timbit-robin-art]

Dropping in for a new mission.

[mienar]

the wandering painter, part one

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