#Su discourse

[fandomsandfeminism]

Sometimes I think about how and why some people had such a *bad* reaction to the end of Steven Universe, specifically in regards to the Diamonds living.

Even though they no longer are causing harm to others and are able to actually undo some of their previous harm by living, some folks reacted as though this ending was somehow morally suspect. Morally bankrupt, even.

And I think it might be because so many of us were raised on a very specific kind of kids media trope:

They all fall to their deaths.

Disney loves chucking their bad guys off cliffs. And it makes sense- in a moral framework where villains *must* be punished (regardless of whether their death will actually prevent further harm or not), but killing of any kind is morally bad for the hero, the narrative must find a way to kill the villain without the protagonists doing a murder.

It's a moral assumption that a person can *deserve* to die, that it is cosmically just for them to die, that them dying is evidence that the story itself is morally good and correct. Scar *deserves* to die, but it would be bad for Simba to kill him. So....cliff. (edit: yes, cliff then hyenas. But cliff first. Lol.)

Steven Universe, whatever else it's faults, took a step back and said "but if killing people is bad, then people dying is bad", and instead of dropping White Diamond off a cliff, asked "what would actual *restorative*, not punitive, justice look like? What would actual reparations mean here? If the goal is to heal, not just to punish, how do we handle those who have done harm?" And then did that.

Which I think is interesting, and that there was pushback against it is interesting.

It also reminds me of the folks who get very weird about Aang not killing Ozai at the end of Avatar. And like, Ozai still gets chucked in prison, so it doesn't even push back on our cultural ideas of punitive justice *that much.* and still, I've seen people get real mad that the child monk who is the last survivor of a genocide that wiped out his entire pacifist culture didn't do a murder.

[faelapis]

i'm not totally immune to any and all SU criticism.

i think it's fine if people treat it like any animated show - heck, any show, because nothing is perfect. that's why i don't like when people defend SU with the caveat "its not perfect, but..." cuz they would never do for a show like gravity falls or atla. if you think any media is perfect, i straight up don't trust your opinion. it should be implied already that you don't think something is perfect. if you have to specify, you sound like a child, because you sound like you think media without that caveat is perfect.

anyway. the other issue is. most people critical of SU are incapable of being normal about it. it's such a common trope on "cartoon twitter" (shudders) that someone will say something vaguely critical - like, idk, the writing being "messy in places." and you think okay, maybe this is a normal take. maybe i won't agree, but maybe this is the rare person who dislikes SU for normal reasons and you can have a real conversation with.

then you press for examples and it's almost always "fusion is sex," "diamonds are hitler," or "they SOLVE THINGS BY HUGGING???"

so yeah... no. as long as that's the baseline, i will always defend SU.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

their crimes and problems with their redemption arcs under the cut!

catra:

crimes:

War crimes

Abuse of power

Corruption

Reckless endangerment

Psychological abuse

Assault

Terrorism

Attempted regicide

Attempted mass murder

Attempted world domination

Attempted cataclysm

Conspiracy

Mass destruction

Abduction & kidnapping

Unlawful imprisonment

Brainwashing

Theft

Torture

Treason

Usurpation

Coercion

Stalking

Mutilation

Aiding and abetting

Illegal use of weapons

Espionage

Crimes against peace

Crimes against Etheria

Altering reality

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she was only redeemed in the final season and her arc wasn't as drawn out as it should have been.

she never faces any consequences of her actions and is forgiven by her victims almost immediately, either after a vague apology or no apology at all.

she continues torturing and abusing people around her, especially her love interest, adora. her redemption arc doesn't mean anything since she never actually changes.

the diamonds:

crimes:

Multiple planetary conquests

Mass invasion

Mass terraformation

Attempted omnicide

Crimes against the universe

Cruel and unusual punishments

Unlawful executions

Slavery

Oppression

Propaganda

Abuse of power

Mass murder

Terrorism

Ecocide

Genocide

War crimes

Hate crimes

Corruption

Psychological abuse

Brainwashing

Unethical experimentation

Mass forced confinement

Mass destruction

Mass forced transmutations

how was their redemption arc carried out?

same as catra, their redemption was done during the final few episodes of steven universe, and it was way too sudden to be realistic.

they never face any consequences of their actions and still gets to retain their positions as cosmic rulers.

they do, however, seem to put in some effort to change, although it's not clear if this is helpful. steven also does not seem to forgive them.

lilith clawthorne:

crimes:

Malediction

Attempted murder

Child endangerment

Hostage-taking

Kidnapping

Coercion

Malefic

Treason

Cheating

Torture

Abuse

Assault

Aiding and abetting

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she only had to make one sacrifice and that was the extent of her redemption arc.

she is also forgiven too quickly by the people she had hurt.

she does change for the better, and proves to be an ally to the heroes (albeit being an underutilized character).

sasha waybright:

crimes:

Abuse of power

Psychological abuse

Attempted murder

Treason

Terrorism

Harassment

Vandalism

Theft

Usurpation

Animal cruelty

Conspiracy

Kidnapping

Incrimination

Sabotage

Child endangerment

how was her redemption arc carried out?

we only see the beginning of her redemption, the rest of it happens almost entirely off-screen. this was a lazy choice, as we never see an actual “arc”, only the beginning and the end of it.

she is almost immediately forgiven by her friends. there is some lingering suspicion in some episodes, but not enough for everything she had done prior to that season.

however, she also seems to have turned into a better person and doesn't repeat any of her past toxic behaviour.

[viro-lil-goat]

Hiding in Private

i highly reccomend this video and this channel in general. The creator is really good at understanding Steven Universe for what it is at its core. Its values and messages. This specific vid made me cry for seemingly no reason at "idealism" part of the video. Its unfair how hate reviews got so much more traction, millions of views. Convincing people this show is terrible, not even being able to understand it while making bold claims and hating on its creators. So im putting this out there in hopes i can bring more people to watch it, and maybe even, Change their Minds *badums*

[werewolf-cuddles]

Damn, as someone who actually shipped Greg X Pearl back in the day (and got a lot of shit for it from self-righteous teenagers with nothing better to do with their time), seeing those old Greg X Pearl sketches drawn by Rebecca Sugar herself is absolutely surreal.

Also the people flipping their shit over them really need to find better things to do with their time. Seriously. You must have no problems at all in your personal life if a cartoon creator drawing suggestive art of her own characters is something you feel compelled to bitch about.

[crystal-fems]

Current thoughts on the Pearl/Greg situation…

First of all, It’s crazy coming back to this Steven Universe centered blog after all these years since I still hold so much love in my heart for this show that allowed me to discover who I am and live with confidence as well as helping me through many rough periods in my life. And now since we’re suddenly getting a few trickles of new content here and there (and discourse, but it’s SU so that’s always been a part of the fandom lol) I’m getting the feeling we’ll be getting some kind of big announcement sometime soon. Fingers crossed!

But alas, on the GregPearl early drawings that Raven, a former storyboard artist leaked that were drawn by Rebecca that have been resurfacing around the internet, I am able to see both sides. And incoming is a bit of a rant on the latest debacle…

At the end of the day these are Rebecca Sugar’s (Who is bisexual and genderfluid btw) original characters who she poured her heart and soul into, a lot of whom she based characteristics around herself and the people in her life. So first and foremost, what she decides to do with these characters is up to her. Not you. Of course you’re allowed to have your opinion on it, but Rebecca is nowhere in the wrong here and I’m tired of hearing about it because of the lgbtqia+ community’s blatant biphobia. She also fought tooth and nail to have a wlw wedding in her show but people have the audacity to say this is lesbophobic when these concepts and personal sketches were drawn very early on anyway and not even implemented into the fucking show.

Now on the other hand, I also understand where certain people are coming from to an extent. It’s odd for me personally to see Pearl with Greg and really any other man for that instance, as she’s always been lesbian representation to me and many others as well. At the time, she was the representation in cartoons that we so desperately wanted and needed. She was actually the first character that made me realize I was attracted to women in the first place. And because of that, many of us attached so heavily to this part of her identity which was never officially confirmed.

But you know what’s forgotten? Pearl is also nonbinary. All of the gems are nonbinary. But there’s erasure in that too of course because the community only wants to see her as a futch presenting lesbian when in reality, she physically can’t be that. Now don’t twist my words and think I’m for a second implying that you can’t be nonbinary and a lesbian, because that’s just not true either, but she’s supposed to be an alien for fuck’s sake. The whole idea of gender and sexuality is completely abstract to her species. AND ESPECIALLY SO in a world so inclusive and accepting of everyone, no matter what race, ethnicity, physical capability, gender identities and sexualities. You’d think for a show with a plot that’s so integral on being open about embracing who you are and not being afraid to love yourself as well as the people around you no matter the status quo, that people would have a little more open-mindedness and compassion.

[thedujifuji]

like I wasn’t a huge bispearl person during the run of the original series- they were cute, ofc, but now it’s like, with 20-20 hindsight, she’s honestly such a healthy ship for Pearl, because with Pearl’s last romantic infatuation being with her former owner, and with it being very based in the hegemonic and strict gem caste that her feelings formed, who else would be a better fit for Pearl’s break from her old ways of thinking than Bismuth? Bismuth’s staunch opposition to the caste system and former structures of gem society play very well with Pearl’s newfound LEGITIMATE freedom from Rose/Pink, and I just think that’s neat. ofc they also have mega chemistry and are v cute but that wasn’t the point of this post, I’m just a newfound bispearl stan ig

[esotericbadbitch]

This is very stupid, years late, misremembered and not at all researched but I’ve always been confused the reading that Lapis was the abuser in Malachite relationship.

Because like imagine you’re a guy who was imprisoned by an evil regime for some stuff that wasn’t really wrong. You spend thousands of years imprisoned alone on alien planet until some random 12 year old frees you. Dope. You’re just chilling trying to find out what the fucks happened since you’ve been gone when some super amped up cop arrests you. Again.

While you’re chilling in space prison, the same 12 year old shows up to break you out. The space cop arrested him and punched out all four of his gay mums. You say I can’t fight a jacked up space cop, he leaves and you feel guilty.

Then two of his gay moms punch out the space cop with the power of lesbianism and do so with so much lesbianism they crash the space ship you’re all on. You survive the crash- sweet- and are about to flee the scene. When space cop grabs you and asks for the power of gay love to beat the lesbians pulling out teammate handcuffs. Fuck it. You say yes. The minute she cuffs you to her, you fling the both of you off a cliff into a hole. Every time the cop tries to get out of the hole you pull her back in. It is a vicious ugly cycle that is unhealthy for both of you.

Somehow you get out of the hole. (I literally don’t remember how this happens and I think this post is funnier if I don’t google it. Something to do with sending dream telegrams to the 12 year old?). The 12 year old who is literally your only friend tries to set you up with an abandoned barn or something. You still aren’t doing great obviously. Then the space cop crawls out of the ocean on her hands and knees begging to go back into the pit with you.

[unagrancantidaddepanes]

ok i wasnt gonna do it i told myself no im just not gonna say anything on this drama but this is so MINDBOGGLING that i HAVE to make a post about this

i am gonna start by saying as someone on the arospectrum i personally see peridot as either fully aroace or arospec (i like headcanoning either one) and as in a qpr or plantonic friendship with lapis.

peridot has been confirmed to be intended to be read as aroace by a storyboard artist (maya peterson) that would focus on her character, i am not denying that,

however

she is also confirmed to be intended to be read as experiencing romantic attraction, by the OTHER storyboard artist who originally worked on peridot, jesse zuke, who has just as much authority to talk about peridots character, if not more since (to my knowledge) she was the original main storyboard artist for peridot

the intention behind what peridot is suppose to represent is fundamentally contradictory, there is absolutely no use fighting over it. this is so dumb to fight over YES both sides have been confirmed canon THATS WHY THIS IS DUMB </33

ive been trying to find as many actual sources as i can (which has been pretty difficult since A LOT has been deleted) but I finally found a transcript of one of jesse zukes posts that is deleted that everyone keeps referencing

from this reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/stevenuniverse/comments/5q738i/lauren_zuke_speaks_of_her_intention/

(jesse was formerly known as lauren)

anyone posts something shipping peridot, u get a load of comments saying "this is aroace erasure, shes written as aroace, a storyboard artist said so", anyone posts something about peridot being canonically aroace, u get a load of comments saying "shes not canonically aroace, she was written as experiencing romantic attraction, a storyboard artist said so" everyone is either one or the other it seems like NO ONE is acknowledging that both is true and really this confusion is the fault of the crewniverse ????

these storyboard artists BOTH focused heavily on working on peridot and creating her character, and their intentions behind what she is are completely contradicting.

i would love for peridot to be aroace. to me she IS aroace, but im not going to pretend like this isnt the most confusing most unclear way of confirming that. even if maya peterson intended for her to be seen as aroace, jesse zuke wrote her as the complete opposite and it would be stupid of me to ignore that. harassing eachother over this is stupid. your both correct, now shake hands and make peace with eachother lol, good night.

As an arospec person I am completely fine with people shipping peridot and I do not think it is aroace erasure, because while I would love to see an orientation like mine depicted in a character like peridot, im not going to ignore that fact the she was ALSO originally meant to be read as experiencing romantic attraction AND the fact that many of the crewniverse ships peridot with people or supports others doing it. it is not aroace erasure to ship a character that was literally intended to be read as experiencing romantic attraction by some of the people who worked on her character. rebecca god damn sugar, the creator of steven universe has made fanart shipping peridot. peridots voice actor has said she likes and supports people shipping peridot. its just that different people working on the show had wildly different intentions when creating her character, and didnt clear up a solid identity for her with everyone working on her

jesse zuke said in her post "cant speak for anyone else! many people are writing those episodes". just like if maya peterson and anyone else working on peridot intended for her to be read as aroace, other people working on her character with just as much authority were writing her completely differently. people are not seeming to acknowledge that these two things co-exist. it is not one or the other. even though they are complete opposites, somehow theyve made it so that its both at once.

she was simultaneously written to be both aroace and experiencing romantic attraction by different people writing her character, clearly because of miscommunication within the crewniverse.

heres rebecca sugars ship art btw since the first 2 were really hard to find, in case anyone else wanted some sort of actual evidence of it

also just wanted to bring attention to jesse zuke saying "anyone who wants to see the narrative they want is completely, 100% allowed to". peridot and her episodes were written to have multiple interpretations. this was written with multiple intentions. some of those intentions were aroace, some of them, like jesse zukes, were not. you are all correct peace and love

update i found a slightly longer version of jesse zukes post in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oIl1sEQ4_iI

"I wanted to close the book on this - I am queer, and intend fully to write queer characters when I do"

this is pretty clear confirmation that peridot was fully written with completely different ideas in mind from completely different people. jesse zuke INTENDED for peridot and lapis to be read as having a queer relationship, in this post shes encouraging people to read it that way, meanwhile other writers had other intentions which are just as real and valid.

inconsistency and messy production in steven universe is not a new thing

[noddytheornithopod]

Okay I saw the Rebecca Sugar drawings of *REDACTED* and *REDACTED*. I get why some people might be shocked or sad that things weren't they way they thought, but these were always their characters, they have every right to explore possibilities with them.

Also, SU is a very personal show to Rebecca, they've talked about how uncomfortable they've felt with people policing characters' sexualities when she puts her bi experiences into them. Also also, you aren't beholden to canon (and this isn't even proper canon).

All I will say is that I am so glad this didn't come out when the show still aired. I'm convinced some of you would be sending death threats to Rebecca Sugar over this.

Anyway, chill the fuck out, you're not obligated to follow a creator's interpretations or exploration of ideas (good place for Death of the Author), also understand that even if a piece of media meant something to you in a specific way, doesn't mean that was the creator's intent.

[moxalotl0]

I had a dream that I had three really BIG DOGS protecting me and taking care of me. Then I got sent to a summer mental health camp in a barn and took them with me. but then I got lost from the group and found a mystic stairway. I went up in and it led to a Lapidot convention and there were a bunch Peridot lovers but no Lapis lovers so I started a protest in her honor. It took place in a foot ball stadium. Idk anymore

[eeveearoace]

Rose didn't choose Greg over Pearl. You can love two people

Okay, I'm assuming this is a response to this post. (And, of course, the tags I left on it.)

And I mean, yeah, true, but it doesn't seem like Rose and Pearl were in a romantic relationship - although Pearl clearly WANTED to be - while it was hammered home to us time and time again that Rose and Greg WERE.

Nobody owes anybody a romantic relationship, but in Pearl's eyes, she's done so much for Rose, while Greg is just. There.

And Rose sacrificed herself to have GREG'S child. Idk man. It really does seem like Rose chose Greg over Pearl, at least in regards to a romantic relationship. AND, even if she didn't, that's the way PEARL would've seen it.

Also, I think it's kinda funny that you're over here... telling me about polyamory... girlie, do you KNOW how many Sashannarcy fics I've written?

[queer-here-and-in-fear]

dont shoot me for posting steven universe discourse in 2023 on tumblr, but i have.. thoughts about peridot. yes its about the aroace thing. no its not the point you think it is. take what im about to say with a helping of salt bc this is from memory and i watched the episodes a few years ago but: i think it's actually insanely fucked up if they wrote peridot as aroace and if thats true it also deeply confuses the metaphor for me.

number 1, fusion is supposed to be any kind of relationship - not just romantic. so like.. her not being able to fuse in anyway is strange if its meant to mean aroace. honestly, it lines up more as autistic for me. not in a "autistics cant relationship" way but in a "autism often causes issues engaging in certain social/relationship rituals and fusion is one of those"

number 2, it is heavily implied she can't fuse because she's a second gen peridot, which is a definitive disability metaphor. its not just autism either guys (i am looking at you neurodivergent community)!! it is very much physical as well. so, implying she's aroace just bc she's disabled.. is a batshit insane take and so so ableist. end of post.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

if you watched steven universe, i'd like to know your thoughts on lapis? ive seen some people say catra is written better than her

i have watched steven universe and i didn't like lapis tbh. i think both lapis and catra are not very different when it comes to character development. however, as far as i remember, apart from trying to drown steven and connie that one time, lapis didn't do anything too heinous. her relationships with jasper and peridot were pretty messed up, which is why i'm glad they didn't make either of those ships canon.

jasper's and lapis's relationship/fusion was supposed to be toxic so it's not really a problematic thing, although i do think they could have addressed the fact that lapis also contributed to the toxicity, rather than painting her as the victim. i do think she owed peridot an apology, she didn't deserve that instant forgiveness from peridot.

anyway, i think the main difference here is that lapis wasn't the main villain like catra was (because, let's be real, catra was the main villain of s1-4, not hordak). she was pretty bad but she wasn't as coddled by the writers as catra was. steven universe was generally bad at redeeming antagonists (with the exception of peridot) so lapis just feels like another example of that. she was not a war criminal and didn't commit atrocity after atrocity like catra did, and she didn't get a happily ever after with her victims. she stayed friends with peridot and didn't seem to repeat any of her toxic habits afterwards, so i'm glad they left it at that. i feel like her redemption was just 1% better than catra's.

[unearthedheart]

people without fucked up attatchement styles will say rose abused pearl just bc of how pearl grieves after her death like no bitch shes just borderline. shes just like me fr

[werewolf-cuddles]

steven universe was another fandom where you had to just walk on eggshells. GregPearl these days is accepted more but back then holy hell its like you were personally heatecrimeing every lesbian on earth even tho pearl has never been confirmed to be a lesbian and is an alien rock. bisexuals exist all im saying

God, don't fucking remind me