#Since Cass has been barely even there after the reboot

[zeroducks-2]

Why are DC fans like this.

Cassandra is not Bruce's favorite, his precious little princess or whatever the fuck fanon came up with, Bruce treats her LIKE SHIT. You want to write them as happy and loving in your fic go ahead but FUCKING DAMN IT IT'S NOT CANON.

Why do yall let Bruce get away with so much bullshit I can never understand. He abused the fuck out of Stephanie and outwardly used her to manipulate Tim, and the reason why Cass "made it" is solely because Oracle!Barbara took her under her wing, taught her and nurtured her while Bruce was busy ignoring her and treating her like an asset in the best cases. Bruce is a deeply flawed and damaged person and IT SHOWS in the way he treats those around him ESPECIALLY the kids he's taken in.

Again, write and draw whatever you want but before claiming something is canon READ THE FRICKIN COMICBOOKS ajsjahfidjwhfskfj

[wqintraining]

The way Shiva and Steph have both been so heavily attached to Cass these past few years is actually pretty weird when you think about it in the larger context.

Yes, Steph is Cass' best friend historically, and Shiva is Cass' mom. But between 1999 (Cass' debut year) and 2019 (the last year before DiDio's firing and the begining of the modern versions of these characters), they really didn't interact much. Yes, erasures, reboots, and deaths played a role in this, but even so, Cass and Steph had maybe a dozen team-ups total prior to the latter's death, with the two never getting a proper reunion once she was back, and the story where Cass and the readers discovered Shiva was her mom was the last time those two would interact for over a decade.

And like...this is the power of fandom at play, right? Prior to 2006 (the begining of Cass' erasure), Steph and Shiva would appear with Cass and play important roles in her life, but they also had conpletely seperate lives and relationships; they are both older characters than Cass after all. This continued in the back half of the 2000s and the first half of the 2010s. Whatever you think of the quality of stories being told, Shiva and Steph's lives were distinctly seperate from Cass'.

Then you get to Rebirth, and this is where this discussion ends for Shiva, because ever since Cass was brought back into canon, she hasn't had a single story that wasnt about her.

Steph's a different story though. From 2015-2019, the joke in fandom was that Cass kept ditching her best friend for a new one (Harper, Clayface, Duke, and, Hell, count Tim if you want see he was her best friend by the end of Pre-FP) and that her and Steph barely seemed like close friends at all. They barely spoke to each other in Tec, and didnt speak at all in between Tec and Joker War.

And yet now, short of a Robins team-up, you'll be hard pressed to find Steph showing up without Cass (much more likely it'll be the other way around).

The fact is that Cass is by far the most popular of these characters, and DC has finally started realizing Cass is one of their biggest female and minority heroes. Naturally, that's gonna pull Steph and Shiva closer into her orbit. But I think the fandom aspect is the more interesting part here.

Fans love Cass. For over 20 years, fans have created lots of content for Cass. And for as little as Cass actually actually interacted woth Steph and Shiva back in the day, they were still the characters she interacted with the most (alongside Bruce and Babs). Not only that, but most of their appearences together are utterly beloved and considered foundational to the characters. And so with no competition, clear slots they fit into in Cass' life, popularity among fans, and fanfic writers and fanartists generally preferring to explore/focus on relationships and interactions over the types of things Cass' book mostly dealt with, Steph and Shiva became integral to her world. And more than anything, I think that's why we find ourselves in the situation we do today.

Edit: Shit, I forgot to talk about Futures End, Convergence, and how the meta corcumstances of being lumped together as the "other" Batgirls caused them to become even closer.

[wesavegotham]

if you were a dc writer and had complete freedom to do whatever you wanted with Damian would you make damian leave robin's cloak but without destroying development so he becomes an independent hero without being a red hood 2.0?

The thing is, I know sooner or later DC will give Bruce another Robin even though it keeps getting harder and harder to find a character archetype that isn't yet part of the batfamily and they also already have enough problems explaining how Bruce raised all these sidekicks without being too old to be Batman. But before that day comes I want to see DC just letting Damian be Robin. Like Dick, Jason (at least for a few years) and Tim got to be. With Damian it feels like his role is never secure.

It started with him being Robin to Dick's Batman and of course that didn't last long. After one year DC demanded that they bring back Bruce and the only reason Damian got to stay on as Robin was probably because Grant Morrison had always planned to kill him off anyway. There were also a bunch of comics in which characters told Tim he's better and their Robin, despite Damian being the official Robin.

Then Grant Morrison killed Damian off and it looked like Snyder would replace Damian with Duke or Harper as Robin. DC did decide to bring Damian back in the end, but Snyder gave Bruce amnesia and Tomasi's Batman and Robin book had to end. They gave Damian the Robin: Son of Batman solo book, which is an excellent book, but it was shortlived because of DC Rebirth. DC Rebirth seemed pretty determined to keep Damian away from Batman by putting him in two awful Teen Titans teams while they put Tim back in the Robin suit, only slapping a second R on it. Tynion made it pretty clear that it was his goal to make Tim Robin again.

Teen Titans by Adam Glass had the explicit goal to kick Damian out of the mantle in the most dishonorable way and Bendis made Tim call himself just Robin again. Since then they gave Damian a Robin solo, but after only 17 issues they cancelled it (according to Williamson not because of sales) and gave Tim a Robin solo instead. Damian has also been excluded from batfamily events for ages.

Like...can we just get Damian being Robin without anyone trying to take it from him for a few years? Letting him actually build relationships with the batfamily? He barely has one with Bruce, his own father, and most of his interactions with Dick are "remember when I was Batman and you were my Robin" nostalgia bait. His relationships with the others were either erased by the New 52 reboot (Steph), barely developed (Tim, Jason) or were never fleshed out in the first place (Cass, Kate, Barbara, Duke).

So to answer your question, if I had complete freedom I wouldn't force Damian to take a new mantle yet. I would tell the writers to stop sabotaging him because of their nostalgia or desire to make money by being the creator of the next Robin.

Damian is still too young, DC has barely used his story potential and his relationships with the other bats (and the wider DC universe) are underdeveloped. If they kicked him out of the prestigious Robin mantle for good right now I fear that DC will never fix their mistakes. DC will put out a Batman and Robin ongoing, they won't put out a Batman and "insert Damian's new mantle here" comic. We also aren't in the 90s anymore when even a new character like Azrael could hold a solo title for over a 100 issues. I genuinly believe that kicking Damian out of the mantle would just end with him getting sidelined even more.

[gamesception]

Sception Reads Cassandra Cain, part 0: BoP & a reading list

So since my Demon’s Souls live(ish) blog died, I’ve been looking for something else to blog about, just to keep up momentum/have some structure to my week/do something apart from veg out in front of youtube during my free time.  While contemplating what to do, I happened to make it out to see the Birds of Prey movie, partially since I was a fan of the original run of the Cassandra Cain Batgirl title back in the day, and after a long stretch when the character seemed to be blackballed by an editorial staff who seemed to hate her it was surprising to me that any version of the character made it into any sort of screen adaptation...

Overall I rather enjoyed the film.  Robbie is still great as Harle Quinn and it was nice to see her version of the character in a movie that wasn’t hot garbage otherwise.  The other characters were all fun, too.  Mary Elizabeth Winstead in particular was an absolute Riot as Huntress.  There was maybe too much expository narration, like *way* too much expository narration, but other than that, yeah, a fun albeit very violent little action comedy, up there with Shazaam in terms of being DC superhero movies that are actually pretty darn good throughout.

As for Cass, though...  I mean, I knew going in that the films version was going to be Cass in name only, and that’s fine.  The nature of these superhero IPs is that there are going to be bunches of different takes on them and there’s no guarantee that any given take is going to bare any resemblance to any of the others.  It’s still a bit disappointing how far film Cass is from her roots, in a movie that otherwise mostly does a pretty good job of maintaining the essence of the source characters even as they adapt them to fit the plot and tone of the film.  If the source material had been at all better or more consistent in the portrayal of Cass’s disabilities I might be more upset at their complete erasure in this version, and if anyone reading this *is* upset with that I’m absolutely not saying your wrong, but as it is this is hardly the first time that aspect of the character has been erased.

Taken on her own, film Cass was a fun character well acted, and even if I preferred they had kept a bit more of the original character in there I’m not personally mad about it.  But it does have me feeling nostalgic about original Cass, and curous about my memories of her, since I know I’m quite vulnerable to nostalgia blindness.  Was old Cass as good as I remember?  Does it hold up?

So, yeah.  For the next however long I have the motivation to keep it up, I’m going to be going back to, as nearly as I’m able, read all of Cassandra Cain’s comic appearances, in order, and write a few small thoughts on them as I go.

After scouring the internet, here’s the best list I’ve been able to put together:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19VfxEJOyVUIe6VCi6cfP63iWbmHDAnvauu7O6yr_GdU/edit?usp=sharing

It only goes out to around 2010, so certainly no current continuity stuff.  200 odd entries already.  Though I doubt I’ll even make it through these, if anyone reading this happens to have a more complete list, or notices any gaps though, please let me know.  Right now I’m just looking for old, pre-reboot Cass.  Not current comics Cass.  I may or may not get to her eventually, but not right now.

[secretlystephaniebrown]

Why Rebirth’s Stephanie Brown isn’t the Same as Preboot Stephanie Brown

Hi I’ve got opinions about how the reboot has been handling my girl. 

I’ve been enjoying Detective Comics for the most part, but I’ve been frustrated with Stephanie Brown’s role in them for a while. And I think I’ve finally put my finger on it. 

Special thanks to @renaroo for all her help finding panels and issue numbers!

Below the cut is 2k of screaming and panels. 

Stephanie Brown in the preboot era was a kid with a bad past. Her mom was a drug addict, her dad was abusive and a villain. She lived in poverty for at least chunks of her original run as Spoiler. She dated older guys, one of whom got her pregnant and ran away, and has been implied to be a sexual abuse survivor.

And as Spoiler, her life wasn’t necessarily better. She dated Tim, and they had a pretty decent relationship, but Tim didn’t tell her his secret identity, on orders from Batman. For reasons. (Bruce later told her his identity without Tim’s permission, which… doesn’t really make things better.) From day one, she was an outcast from the family; she regularly got locked out of the Batcave, wasn’t informed about major developments in the family, and Bruce denies her training and resources. She even suspects that this is because of her family life. 

(Robin (1993-2009) #100.)

@renaroo and I have talked about this, and a part of Bruce’s reaction to Steph during this time period was clearly based off Bruce’s recent trauma because of Jason’s death. Steph, Cass, and Tim’s relationships with Bruce in the preboot were all tied to that event. Tim stepped up as Robin, providing Bruce with the balance and support that he knew he needed, so Bruce couldn’t really send Tim away. Cass had no secret identity, no life to return to. Bruce looked at her and saw his own morals concentrated, a dedication to the cause that he thought makes Cass an ideal protégé and possible successor down the line. (Not that it ever happened of course because of course it didn’t.) Besides that, Cass was a better fighter than he was, and had been looking after herself for years. Firing her wasn’t very effective, although he certainly tried in the later parts of Cass’s initial Batgirl run.

But Steph?

Steph was none of those things. Bruce didn’t need her, she wasn’t trained and capable like Cass. Instead, everything that Bruce saw when he looked at her probably remindd him of Jason. A mother lost to drug abuse, a father entrenched in crime and violence, a kid from the less great parts of the city. The parallels were right there to Bruce. But Bruce was too late to save Steph from this life, unlike Jason. Instead, Steph had decided to save herself. But he looked at her, and he saw a kid with no training and no experience. And he’d just lost a partner from a background very similar to hers.

He told her to go home. He never really stopped, not until she became Batgirl. (Although they had some amazing bonding moments as well, which I’ll probably make another post about later)

As a result Steph was an outcast for the majority of her run as Spoiler. She got brief flashes of integration and family; she teams up with Cass, works with other heroes like Black Canary, Huntress, and Oracle. She worked with Tim and Bruce as well. But just as often, Bruce did things like forbid Cass to patrol with Steph and the aforementioned locking her out of the Batcave and not telling her that the family was undergoing a MAJOR crisis at the time.)

(Batman: Bruce Wayne: Murderer? Robin (1993-2009) #98 - Yes Bruce was in prison at the time, but you’d have thought that SOMEONE would have thought to tell her he was unavailable.)

The end result of this should happen when she becomes Robin. Steph becoming Robin should have been cathartic; a culmination of Steph’s hard work paying off and Bruce recognizing her place in the family. And it was for a while!!

(Detective Comics (1937-2011) #796. Making me nostalgic for what could have been. Steph with anger issues and a complicated but growing relationship with Bruce? Amazing.)

Instead, it was a cheap stunt by DC. Steph got fired, Steph screwed up by starting a gang war, Steph died. (And then came back in an outrageously OOC manner, but that’s another story.)

We got some of the catharsis of her becoming part of the family in Steph’s run as Batgirl, but it was undermined by a lot of things. To make her Batgirl, Miller began what Tynion and the Nu52 (and later Rebirth) continues to do.

They take away what makes Steph interesting.

Steph’s anger issues were integral to her early character. She canonically went to visit her father in prison to fight him. Her anger was not once touched upon in Miller’s Batgirl. Her status as a teenage mom was similarly erased. Her trauma at the hands of Black Mask was only hinted at once, after Steph was shot in the head, when she saw him in a flashback. 

(Batgirl (2009-2011) #6. Don’t worry, this will never come up again.)

And her friendship with Cass, a relationship I would say was defining and important to Steph, was washed away, with Cass not even appearing in Steph’s history of the Bat Family. Steph still had to fight for her acceptance in the family; Babs didn’t want her to be Batgirl, her first ever meeting with Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne was a disaster, and she struggled to find her place. There was still catharsis there; she built a team and support network for herself, and it was wonderful, despite my issues with that run.

Miller also started moving Steph away from her roots with her mom; Crystal in Miller’s run was clean and she and Steph seem to have achieved financial stability. But in the preboot, both of those worked, since we’d seen how far they’ve come. Arthur’s abuse wasn’t directly stated, but his attack on her specifically through Black Mercy mad it pretty clear that there were still elements of abuse present, even if the events Steph had referred to in previous stories weren’t shown.

But Tynion doesn’t have that history to build off, because the Nu52 annihilated Steph’s entire history.

Steph in Batman Eternal is from a perfectly happy middle class background, with her parents already split up and with joint custody. Her dad isn’t abusive (in fact, him being a supervillain appears to be a complete surprise to her), her mom isn’t an addict. She’s never been a teenage mom, and although she starts a relationship with Tim off page, she knows his secret identity from the beginning.

(Batman Eternal #3)

And Bruce accepts her into the fold right away in Detective Comics. As a fan of Steph, the catharsis is there on a meta level; Stephanie Brown is accepted enough by the company to allow her to be in the comic which they named themselves after! What a change from the days when Steph was brutally killed off and then banned from appearing in any medium! But in universe? That catharsis doesn’t exist.

So suddenly, Tynion is faced with a character with many of Steph’s traits; the name, the upbeat attitude, the costume, with none of her history or markings.

(Sidenote: Steph’s anger isn’t completely non-existant in the Nu52/Rebirth era: Selina notes that Steph is angry during Steph’s appearance in Catwoman #42.)

(Catwoman (2011-2016) #42. Thank you for this moment, it’s a balm to my soul.)

Steph’s inclusion by Bruce in this initial team he sets up is a fascinating choice. He’s integrating her into the family from the very beginning of her character arc. This could have been a chance to let Steph grow in new directions; she could have grown closer to Cass and Harper, have Bruce and Kate as mentor figures, and explored her relationship with Tim in new and exciting ways. She could have met Duke and Jason and bonded with them over their similarities.

But instead, Steph and Cass barely interact, Harper’s relegated to cameos and sage advice, and Steph’s character is instead defined solely by her relationship with Tim. She has a few nice moments with Bruce, like the hug I’ve been waiting for ever since I got into comics.

(Detective Comics (2016-) #940. THAT HUG)

But overwhelmingly I’ve been left wanting more, and not in the good way. It’s not satisfying. Steph has some great moments in ‘Tec and even some great lines, just like during her run as Batgirl. But there’s a kind of hollowness there for me, lacking the heart and soul of Stephanie Brown.

Tynion also makes some strange changes with Steph; she loses her snark and attitude that even Miller managed to maintain. 

(Robin (1993-2009) #56. Just hanging around, you know.)

(Detective Comics (1937-2011) #796. Poor Bruce has to hang around with snarky teens.)

She’s lacking her relationship with gravity. 

(Batgirl (2000-2006) #20.)

She also no longer loves being a hero and doing good, instead having her arc being dedicated to… saying that superheroes shouldn’t exist… while still functioning as a vigilante… (I really don’t like this kind of arc in comics, not going to lie, so I’m predisposed to not be happy here. But I still think this is a RADICAL departure from Steph’s prior characterization.) 

(Robin (1993-2009)  #100. Here we see Tim planning on retiring, and knowing that Steph is hardly about to stop being a hero.) 

It all culminates, of course, in Steph’s departure from the team after Tim’s death. She calls out Batman for his actions, raises some valid points about how he’s not really parenting Cass (which… Tynion continues to ignore, because what, letting Bruce adopt Cass and teaching her to read? Nah, she’s too busy learning Shakespeare and hanging out with Clayface.) And after that moment of awesome she… leaves.

(Detective Comics (2016-) #947)

She becomes the outcast again. But this time it’s her fault.

And it’s so frustrating to me, this idea that Steph’s isolation is her own fault in Rebirth. That Bruce offered Steph a place and a team, but that she rejected it, is so aggravating. Steph’s isolation is supposed to be Bruce Wayne’s mistake which she pays for throughout her superhero career. Steph wants this place with the family, fights for it tooth and nail in the preboot. Now, if Steph had gone through the preboot arc, fighting for this, trying to earn it, and then turning away from it out of frustration with Bruce? I’d have been willing to listen, and might have even been excited for it.

(Detective Comics (2016-) #957. This is just such a departure from preboot Steph that it boggles my mind.)

But this is a Stephanie Brown who has not been a hero for long. This is Stephanie Brown, who is about the age preboot Steph was when she became Robin, new and inexperienced (meanwhile Tim is exactly where he was in his own timeline when Steph was Batgirl, a frustrating process that’s also familiar.) Steph is younger than she was in preboot and less competent. So are Barbara Gordon and Cass. The Batboys have gotten to grow up and improve. The Batgirls were forced backwards in both age and ability, and yet were older when they started their superhero careers, making them inherently less experienced then their male counterparts.

Part of it is, of course, DC’s refusal to let the Batgirls move forward in the status quo. Babs can’t become Oracle again, Cass can’t become Batgirl, and Steph can’t be Robin or Batgirl. The Batgirls (and Harper) are all now around the same age, and their relationships have been completely and utterly decimated by the retcons and reboots. Steph and Cass aren’t best friends, Babs isn’t a mentor to either Steph or Cass. Steph’s relationship with Bruce is no longer the complicated beast that it was pre-Flashpoint, she still hasn’t met Damian and established their bond, and her first interaction with Dick was an aggravatingly airheaded “kiss me sexy Batman”.

(Batman and Robin Eternal #2. Just. Why.)

And her relationship with Tim is lacking some of the most interesting elements; the drama of Steph’s history and Bruce’s disapproval. But despite its blandness, it continues to be the front and center of Steph’s arc. It’s what drives her away from the others and causes her to isolate herself. Steph functions as a manic-pixie figure to Tim, encouraging him to live his dream, while still being the goofy and funny partner he needs, with her primary motivation being his death.

Her goofiness and mourning are both clearly about to pay off in a manner which I am terrified about. In Detective Comics, Anarchy clones Steph’s phone. A phone which, it was shown in the previous issue, to contain information which could compromise Tim (and by extension everyone’s secret identities). 

(Detective Comics (2016-) #963. Oh look and Tim even told her it would be a bad idea! Haha, how funny!) 

(Detective Comics (2016-) #964)

We could be about to witness War Games, reboot version.

But this time, there will be no one to blame but Stephanie Brown. She chose to isolate herself, she was sloppy with her phone’s security, and she was fooled by Anarchy.

If Tynion does what I’m scared he’s going to do, we’re looking at some next level bullshit.

I live in fear.

[zeroducks-2]

“Judging by how the sales of comicbooks dropped from post reboot onwards” does this refer to N52 or Rebirth or the former but keeps declining even with the latter? I’m curious bcs 👀 like, well, it should be obvious the reason why but ig it’s true that many execs/marketing team in that huge kind of company do not have the biggest brain 🤷🏽‍♂️

I don't actually have official sources on hand, sorry about that! I remember reading an interview with Dan DiDio saying that in the past 10 years or so "they lost an entire generation of readers", which leads me to assume there has been a consistent drop in comicbook sales after Flash Point Paradox -ish. Not sure if precisely with Rebirth of N52. Which doesn't surprise me given that they butchered entire decades of worldbuilding, character building and established dynamics for a half assed parody of what they had before.

To expand a little on that. When the reboot happened, despite being hella pissed, lots of fans (me included) thought it was a way to set in stone some key events of what we can call the "main comicbook continuity" because a lot of things concerning New Earth (which is the "main continuity" going from the early '80s to 2010ish) made absolutely no sense, temporally and logically and what have you. For example, when exactly Dick had worn the Batman mantle. Or, that bullshit with Joker being ambassador of Iran. Or the ages of the characters, when they started wearing their mantles etc. Nothing of this happened. Instead they got rid of a number of characters that they didn't really want in their stories anymore (like Cass and Steph who literally disappeared despite having had successful and beloved runs as Batgirls), and they cherrypicked what to keep as canon (Joker shot Barbara and rendered her paralyzed BUT she can walk thanks to an implant, so she's Batgirl now and also she looks and acts as if she was 20 despite she should be in her late 30s. It's unclear if everything she did as Oracle and with the Birds of Prey happened or not).

As you can imagine, that didn't sit well with a lot of pre-existing fans, but also made it extremely confusing for new fans. Things make even less sense than before and it's even more intimidating to approach the comics since to understand a shred of what's happening you should read 30+ volumes of the New Earth continuity AND ALSO everything that happened post reboot and probably you still would have zero idea tf is going on. I don't most of the time to be honest.

This is also why people tend to be weirdly attached to stuff that happened in one single comic even if it was never brought up again, imo. For example Dick, Cass, Jason and Tim having been legally adopted by Bruce. I don't believe there is one single mention of that in any comic except the one comic where it happens - kinda like the writer who wrote it wanted it to be like this, but then the one who came after them pretended it never happened, and nobody brought it up again. So is that canon? It surely was at some point but how about now, is Dick "legally a Wayne"? As far as I know the answer is no, but again, nothing makes sense so people keep on cherrypicking what they like about canon.

Sorry I went on a tangent but yeah they made a mess. Toss in the mix the fact that many of the writers that handled these characters post reboot really hated them (and to this day I cannot understand for the love of me WHY they gave them to writers that hated them. Just see what happened with the whole disgrace that was the Ric Grayson situation), and you have barely readable storylines that contradict previous canon, make no sense and are boring and uninspired as fuck, trying to bank on cheap tricks like "let's pretend these people love each other and are a big happy family because that's what the public wants to read, right?? The Batfamily sells!". That's the extent of their effort to make a story good.