#Sephiroth was sympathetic in the OG too

[altocat]

There’s also a very good chance I WON’T like something about Sephiroth’s story and portrayal in Ever Crisis, either him being too woobie or him being too cold and sadistic. I’m speaking in general here.

Fan discourse is exhausting. Purists can be equally annoying to new fans who came in with different feelings and understandings towards the characters. I was brought in because of Crisis Core. Therefore, my interest in Sephiroth is due to what I felt during CRISIS CORE and not the OG. I liked tragic Seph. I liked watching him fall apart. I liked exploring his descent. It made me appreciate him as a villain in the OG that much more.

I don’t think giving Sephiroth a sympathetic leaning takes away from him as a villain because the past is well, the past. He’s the villain now. He’s done some truly unforgivable things and he’s too far gone now imo. But there’s a really annoying subset of FF7 “purists” who seem to just want “haha smirky sword man kills things” as if that’s all Sephiroth’s character actually is. When it wasn’t! Not even in the OG. We wouldn’t have gotten the entire inclusion of Lucrecia if that was the case.

It’s just exhausting, man. I’m a newcomer by two years. And the constant barrage of ship wars and gatekeeping can get really draining sometimes. I just want to have fun and feel things. I want to entertain people and be entertained by their content in turn. That’s all.

/rant over. I don’t like being negative, it’s stupid and pointless. And I know you guys deserve better than that. Back to fun stuff.

The Sephiroth Redemption Twitter Discourse is so stupid.

The EC stuff is CHILD Sephiroth, PRE-NIBELHEIM, PRE DESCENT INTO VILLAINY. It's NOT Sephiroth as he currently stands. It's NOT the Sephiroth being dictated in future installments. It's NOT the end-all, be-all of Sephiroth's current characterization. It's Sephiroth before he was corrupted. That's all. It's a look at a character during a DIFFERENT ERA of his life.

I really don't even know why people are mentioning a redemption arc at all. Could it be Square potentially setting up one in the future? Maybe. But we won't know that until later. Would it suck? Most likely. But it's not out yet so we can't rightfully pass that judgement. Either way, It's got nothing to do with EC.

Sephiroth is allowed to have depth before he became evil. Sephiroth is allowed to have been somewhere close to "good" once. Sephiroth is allowed to have pathos, complexity, and growth. There's nothing wrong with that. The fact that he started out this way and became what he was is part of his ARC as a CHARACTER. It takes a character from Point A and brings them to Point Z through character-shaping moments, altering their personality and psyche. You know, kind of like how people in the real world are shaped by events and memories. This doesn't mean he's about to be redeemed, we KNOW what happens to him and we KNOW it doesn't end well. We KNOW he turns into a monster. That hasn't changed.

Twitter I stg. A literal tar-pit. I'm not even gonna look when Rebirth comes out. I will likely have some beef about Sephiroth's characterization and writing somewhere down the road, be it in Ever Crisis or Rebirth or whatever. But context clues are everything. People like to get mad over nothing.

[rottenpumpkin13]

I was just watching a couple edits of Sephiroth from the demo then rewatched the demo itself. The whole thing made me so depressed. I mean it’s a freaking tragedy that he snapped the way he did because he was such a good person before, even though he’s been abused and used his entire life. Ironically, I think the demo actually did a better job at making me feel sympathetic towards him than CC/Reunion did. Maybe it’s just because the game developers changed their mind on his character and decided to give him more depth, but they did such a great job with his microexpressions it communicated volumes. Like that one scene where he’s trying to save that one Shinra grunt. He genuinely looks devastated he couldn’t save him. And the way he talked to Tifa too 🥹

I swear I heard my heart creak a little when he called her a young lady. And how he took the picture with those villagers even though I know he’s so sick of getting his pictures taken… it just makes his fall into madness so much worse.

Curling into a ball on a puddle of tears and crying over sane Sephiroth is a universal experience 🥲

I don't believe the developers changed their minds about Sephiroth as much as they had the opportunity to develop him further as the compilation expanded. It's made clear, even in the OG's Nibelheim mission, that he was a decent person. Then they fleshed that out even more in Crisis Core, and now beautifully in Rebirth. It went from showing us that he was someone before he went nuts, to then giving him a life outside of his conflict with Cloud and Jenova (they gave him homies ffs). Now Rebirth follows the same pattern as tfs where they flesh him out as a character before he becomes the villain, giving him a personality, compassion, and all these details as you mentioned, the microexpressions, gestures, things make him a whole person. It confuses me that some people don't think "woobifying" him (what even is that term) enriches his character at all. There's nothing that makes a villain more compelling than when they're written as a good, normal person despite their traumas. It really sheds light on how far and hard the fall was.

[pen-and-umbra]

sephiroth in first soldier ec blew up a few fan boards. ppl are so divided and raging, like jesus HAVENT y'all see the compilation??

To be fair, I have reservations about Sephiroth's portrayal in Ever Crisis, but my dissatisfaction stems from how it is presented rather than what is presented.

Having said that, I can see why EC Sephiroth could have ruffled many feathers. There is a subset of fans who are... Let's say conservative and OG-oriented, why don't we. These people had grown accustomed to seeing Sephiroth as the original FFVII depicted him: aloof, cold, and arrogant, far above the player's level. And why not, post-Nibelheim Sephiroth essentially merges with Jenova and aspires to rule the world, becoming less human and more of an alien demigod.

However, EC rips that mold to shreds. Suddenly, young Sephiroth isn't the arrogant, too-good-to-talk-to-you edgelord that many assumed he was. Sephiroth is sheltered and inexperienced with other people! Sephiroth is modest! Sephiroth expresses regret! Sephiroth does not cling to his heroic legend; instead, he admits that it is a deliberate fabrication. He laughs! He cracks a joke! He doesn't scream "How dare you touch me?!" and instead lets people comfort him! He's suddenly much more than a kid who thought he was better than everyone else. He's a kid who, like any other orphan, wants to find his family. All of this brings him down from the demigod realm, and he's no longer the figure older fans remember from the original.

You could argue that FFVII had numerous sequels, including Crisis Core, and I would agree. EC does not add anything new to the table; rather, it expands on the ideas presented in CC. Sephiroth in Crisis Core has a similar vibe: he's a little awkward, isn't particularly excited about killing, and isn't conceited about his fame. However, in my anecdotal experience, there were people who either skipped CC entirely or thought Sephiroth was prideful due to how the English localization misconstrued certain lines from the game. Last but not least, some people mistake emotional detachment for snobbishness or callousness; a sad but true fact. They consider characters cold if they do not make an overt emotional display, whether it is concern or support.

Then there are those who simply want villains to be villains. And I can understand such a viewpoint, even if I do not personally share it. An explicit, unsympathetic personification of evil is an ideal foundation to bounce off; it makes it easy for the heroes to juxtapose themselves against. It establishes clear objectives and instills a sense of moral superiority in both characters and the audience, and sets up a clear distinction between what is fair and unfair. Finally, it's easier to fight and kill something you don't recognize as a human being. However, by humanizing Sephiroth EC has effectively removed that option from the players and long-standing fans. It's no longer black and white. It's no longer as simple as "Cloud wins because he's always been a better person" and "Sephiroth loses because he's always been a self-important jerk who deserves it." It's in various shades of gray. Sure, there will be those who despise the game for making the villain sympathetic. It takes away our easy sense of moral superiority by asking us:

would we feel/act any different in villain's shoes?

Ultimately, it could be argued that it is an exercise in empathy. Human beings simply dislike being reminded that the bad guys aren't all that different from us.

[silver-wield]

I saw some CAs saying that Tifa's behavior towards Cloud in AC was insensitive and what drove him away. What got me is that they were pissed that she supposedly (it's been awhile since I saw the movie) referred to Aerith as a memory. But I think they're missing that Cloud still grieving kept him in a bad mental state. Obviously Tifa didn't mean that as "get over it, it's not that deep" because why else would she wear a pink ribbon like everyone else? And to say that Tifa of all people is (1/2)

insensitive to other people's feelings is aggravating. I assume someone like Tifa would be sympathetic towards Cloud at first, but since he decided to disappear without any mention, Tifa has every right to be upset. They went on to say that Aerith is perfect for Cloud because "she's patient" and basically give her all the credit for helping Cloud in AC even though 1. She's dead and 2. Zack reached out and helped Cloud, too. I'm just annoyed at this point (2/2)

It's not even Aerith as a memory in person, but the memory of her death Tifa's talking about. The feeling of guilt that Cloud let her down the same way he couldn't save Zack. Cloud's personality is that he blames himself for things that aren't his fault. He's very hard on him all the time, which is why Tifa's there to remind him he isn't to blame for things out of his control. He actually couldn't save either Zack or Aerith because of circumstances, not because he didn't try or wasn't good enough. Tifa wants him to live in the present and stop dragging his guilt around because it's killing him. Geostigma attacks the mentally weak, so it's actually Cloud's depression that made him a target. Sephiroth explains it, I think, or Kadaj does. Geostigma infects the weak and erodes their will, driving them into despair until they give up and die.

Cloud wasn't grieving for Aerith in AC, he was consumed by his sense of failure towards her, Zack and Denzel. He couldn't save them and then he got sick too and he knows it's fatal, so he ran away rather than drive Tifa to despair too by losing him. The memorial ribbons are just that. Memorial. A reminder of their lost friend, not a sign of continuing grief. Cloud's actually happy for about 18 months between the end of OG until the start of AC. He had a home, business and family. It was just the anniversary of Aerith's death when he had to take a flower order from Elmyra to the forgotten city that he started feeling guilty again. He didn't confide in Tifa, things spiralled, he got sick and ran away. He was only gone from home for like a week and the events of AC take place over a 2 day period according to the AC countdown info, then the evening of the church healing we see him, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel heading home and he's happy again.

[blackwinged-silversolace]

What was it that drew you to writing Sephiroth?

....@-@'..... WELLLLL first off, let me thank you for this precious question because I don't think i have addressed this here [publicly] before. And get ready, because wow, this got a lot deeper than I thought it could:

And, to answer your question, well.... It basically started when I found out about ff7 when I was 9 yrs old [over 16 years ago] , played the OG far too many times to count and being the sympathizer I am for tragic villians, gravitated toward Seph and his mysterious and almost "relatable??" background [and aesthetic] very quickly. Then it was probably simple obsession, and boom, I owned/played KH, KH2 [+ gathered, few diff copies of Advent Children].

So yeah, of course-- being the obsessed preteen I was, I made damn sure that I owned CrisisCore the moment it was released in the US. And before I even knew there was such a thing as fanfiction I had written 3 [200 to 600 page] fics revolving around him. X'D YEAH, I have always been a crazed fandom enthusiast...and of course, not just for Seph. But he was one of the main catalysts that inspired my need to try things such as art, and writing. So, a few fandoms later, I guess I realized I actually had a smidgeon of natural talent [?]. 

Then at some point I found myself on YT, this was back... [10-12 yes ago?] when it was just a baby and it contained a thriving RP community. So I made a channel [or 3?], and promptly coerced my irl friends to join me in creating accounts to personify our beloved FF7 characters. And I was hooked. Though believe it or not, after some toxic RP sites/chatrooms, I found myself here, and I had not even known about Tumblr RP at all, until about a year ago....T^T so Nemain is just a wee novice as far as this community goes. BUT, so far I love this community and its vibe so much!!!

But as far as his character, what has personally drawn me to him, is his pre-nibelheim character/representation in both CC and the OG, because I felt truly sympathetic for him. I suppose it has to do with being isolated so much as a child myself, and given my own struggles with my mental health vs. the responsibilities expected of me at far too young of an age...I guess I could always see that there was a finer line between sanity and disorder/delusion than most would care to believe??? So I try to to embody that, with an edge of immortality and godcomplexes to spice things up!!!

[glowyjellyfish]

Some more FF7r thoughts, from mid-chapter 16 (battle simulator and just before the board meeting) to mid-chapter 17 (beat the spinny fish robot). Spoilers for FF7r through that part, and spoilers for the entire OG:

-I finally got leviathan! I am... not great at grinding through the battle simulators and Chadley’s quests, I still have at least one left and strongly suspect I have missed a summon, but that’s what the post-game replay is for.

-more random-ass grunt soldiers recognizing Cloud! Possibly the same one! I love how Cloud’s brain threw an absolute fit not letting him process this while the others didn’t even grasp that there was anything odd about Cloud having been in training with random grunts, just that he was clearly having one of his episodes

-completely tickled by how much we hear random employees talking about Reeve and all the work he’s doing, ordering his employees to have multiple reconstruction plans ready, and planning meetings with them after the executive meeting is over. He tries so hard, it’s not his fault he’s working for a company with a bunch of corrupt supervillains as executives!

-Hojo is absolutely disgusting, which is perfect for him. YEAH I BET YOU WANT TO BREED AERITH AND SEPHIROTH YOU SLIMY PIECE OF SHIT. SO GROSS. I… guess I’m glad he’s sensible enough to not be trying to breed her with Red XIII which is even more nonsense Mad Scientist than Hojo’s usual, but guhhh I need brain bleach after every time he speaks. He is legit making me feel more sorry for Sephiroth every time he opens his mouth. Jenova or not, Sephiroth never stood a chance. Eww. I’ve never wanted Sephiroth to be canonically Vincent’s son more in my life, just to take that away from Hojo and so I can stop having to think about how Hojo wants to breed his own freaky hybrid son so he can experiment on his own even more freaky hybrid grandchildren. Gahhhhhhhh

-also, Hojo, how dare you try to spoil cloud’s entire character arc the first time you recognize him. The arbiters were right to attack you, he is not ready for that knowledge!

-Red XIII isn’t even my favorite and I still wept with joy to see and hear him in action. He’s amazing! Carrying Cloud to safety! Jumping over walls and wreckage! Smacking barret’s hand with the burning tip of his tail in lieu of a high-five! (And I don’t always read these things right, I’m not sure whether that’s more of a “i can’t high five without hands you idiot” or “how dare you offer to pet me that is offensive” thing, idek man). Also, loved seeing him all intense and feral after being a prisoner for however long, and only calming down when Aerith does her thing. And coming down to assist Cloud! WHAT A GOOD BOY.

-we saw Aerith’s childhood lab omgggg

-the Turks continue to be perfect. The game walks the very fine line between developing them as people not always comfortable with what they are ordered to do, and making them so sympathetic they lose their edge which a lot of Compilation material seemed to push. Also, Rufus has a task for them; right now mid-17 I want to believe that Rufus is taking the Sephiroth threat more seriously than his father, but who knows, this is his first mention in the game that I’ve seen

-you know how I said running around as the different characters was magical? Also super magical in a different way is running around with all the characters with you! Not just the three in your party, but all of them! Oh god I hope we get that sometimes when there are nine characters, that would be amazing. I mean, totally fine if they still usually split up because that is likely to be unwieldy, just… sometimes.

-I can’t tell whether anyone else especially Tifa saw Sephiroth when they were on the walkway to Jenova. ...probably not, it seems like they (especially Tifa!) would be freaking out more, and they were probably reacting to Cloud’s reaction, but we’ll see I guess.

-OH AND HOW IS WEDGE STILL ALIVE?? I used to get confused by Star Wars Wedge surviving because I was first familiar with ff7 Wedge whose main thing is dying, and then TROS trolled me by having Star Wars Wedge survive to the very end AND NOW FF7r WEDGE IS REFUSING TO DIE AND BEING PRECIOUS. I AM SO CONFUSED. At least he probably won’t go down trying to protect Marlene and Elmyra, that’s a load off my mind!

-anybody else get intensely nervous and alarmed at seeing the pods around Jenova like in Nibelheim in the OG, or just me?

-I’m so interested in how they’re handling Cloud and Sephiroth and Jenova and Sephiroth’s control over Cloud, but I feel like I’ve just been handed a pile of puzzle pieces that I’ll really have to look hard at to figure out

-ditto the arbiters, they are intriguing but I only have a bunch of edge pieces, I need more before I can really start fitting them together

-and then when Hojo said “no changes after contact”, I realized he was testing Cloud. And maybe Aerith, too.

-and THEN when Barret and cloud talked about Wedge I teared up.

[tester10001000]

How KH3 could have gone and still been Nomura’s:

I’ve never posted on tumblr before, might never again, but I needed to get this out; for the sake of the catharsis I didn’t receive after 16 years with the end of KH3. The game itself was fine, in fact, I’d even rate it as a ‘great’ up until the Keyblade Graveyard. That’s when things go off the rails. So let’s rethink KH3, keeping all of Nomura’s plot points and intentions, but communicating them in a way that feels, I hope, much more rightful. I hope you enjoy this! First, the good and mostly-good. -Keep Gameplay as is—very nice. Very satisfying. Keep nice world set-up and secrets. Maybe ratchet up difficulty. Make a Coliseum in Zeus’ court to round off the whole thing as a triad. Have Yoko Shimomura write the soundtrack for real life, plz. Keep the lovely humor. Keep Sora’s excellent arc. Keep most worlds as-is: I was pleasantly surprised by how relevant and well-done most of the world’s plots were. -Cut back on the ridiculous amount of minigames that like 5% of people will be invested in and use those resources to make other improvements (like these?).-Rewrite Arendelle and Corona (and maybe Pirates?) to be unique stories–or, at least, only loosely based on the movies, while actually including important plot points. Have Pixar do it, because they kicked butt with their worlds. Include more Disney-bosses and either get rid of 100-Hundred Acre Wood, or do something more with it. -Don’t give Larxene and Marluxia magic cutscene powers like sleep and time-stopping they won’t use elsewhere. Don’t let the others, like Ansem SoD in TT or Luxord in Caribean, became decayed and cheesy versions of their prior threat. Get rid of, or explain better, why there are six new Princesses+Kairi. Explain “the Power of Waking” just a bit better. -Give us scenes between every world with more meaningful stuff re:Kairi and Riku. We haven’t really known them in awhile, so we need to be reacquainted. Have Riku actually do stuff—rather than constantly fail until Sora literally falls from the sky—like, expand on Repliku return? Or involve him in the Maleficent angle, because of his obvious and interesting connection? Maybe follow her around out of suspicion, making the Maleficent stuff feel less-tacked-on?   -Have Kairi do more stuff, with more scenes expanding on her (like that lovely scene where she talks about Namine!), rather than just how Axel sees her as Xion (but still keep that, too—hence, more scenes!) -Insert a mid-climax between Corona and Monstropolis, with a return to Radiant Garden. Seriously needed to unbloat the climax and evenly redistribute the story. You could do some of this: 1. Meet the FF peeps and conclude their plot with RG’s redemption (How cool would be to hear Leon finally say “you can call me Squall”?); see how everyone is doing and how they interact with the people like Ienzo and the apprentices who caused RG to fall. We could setup the replica/sea-salt trio better here (Roxas body/who and how Xion/further Axel redemption), even though it’s probably the best thread currently, behind SDG. The FF folks were foundational to the start, they should at least be acknowledged in the end. 2. Give. Us. Sephiroth version 3.0. and resolution to that thread. 3. Have some seriously needed interaction among the Destiny Trio—(A) as individuals (sorely needed for Riku and Kairi–have her interact with her forgotten home!), (B) as a united friendship (Kairi/Riku, plz!) and © to set up the SoKai stuff better. Like, for real, we need to be able to take selfies with them—seriously, how could we have the phone and NEVER have a change to selfie with our OG friends?!) 4. Save Aqua here (don’t make her passively suck suddenly with OOC decisions) and then Ven; cement their return and relationships to everyone else (so as to stop rushing the finale and let their moment have its own power—just say they need to “rest” till the climax). 5. Tell wtf happens with Demyx. Set up Vexen/Ansem stuff better. Nomura, you could even tease Subject X girl more. C’mon. Have a tease-fight with the Org, rather than saving it all for the end.

6. It would probably be too much to ask to have Kairi and/or Riku accompany Sora the rest of the way, though it would be dearly needed. So have them do something interesting and important with their time post-RG. Make RG/HB the hub world, returning to it for various stuff. Play up Repliku, Namine, and Roxas/Xion in their hearts so we feel more invested in their persons and, thus, more catharsis when they are retrieved. -Expand on the lovely “calm before the storm” moments for our heroes—especially the Destiny Trio. Have the paopu moment, but don’t rush it so much. Have Riku, Sora, and Kairi doing something together. Have Axel engaging with someone about Xion/Roxas—along with the good Isa stuff. Show us what Mickey, Donald, and Goofy are doing -together-. -At Keyblade Graveyard opening, don’t make everyone suddenly suck. Why is Aqua not reacting -at all- to Terranort killing Ventus? What was the point of Kairi’s “infinite time training” if she just stands there so Sora can, also, not draw his Keyblade? Why are Riku and Mickey just twiddling their thumbs? Have everyone be badass, but still get beaten—then do all the interesting Final World stuff, with Riku’s words keeping Sora encouraged in death while SHOWING Kairi, as a PoH, still in the Realm of Light, somewhere in the tornado, ACTIVELY WORKING to keep Sora’s hanging on in the FW, rather than including her passively after. Or show her doing something beforehand. Just show some damn agency and the profound bonds of the Destiny Trio.

-Make the Namine scene here mandatory—I can’t fathom why they’d let that crucial plot point pass as optional.

-Keep sick final-boss rush, but don’t make everyone take a heel-turn redemption (and give us some team-up limits with everyone! Riku/Sora limit! Sora/Kairi limit! Sora/Roxas limit! SoRiKai Limit!). Marluxia and Xemnas needed to be more ambiguous in death. Luxord, Larxene, Xion, Vanitas, YX, Terranort, Xigbar, and Repliku were all great—even perfect. Saix needed to prove himself more, and there’s NO WAY Ansem SoD can suddenly be sympathetic like that. Slow it down. -Give the Xion-return moment to Kairi—not Sora. It’s perfect for her; she’d remember her because she is made of her. Gives Kairi agency and unique engagement for the both of them. Keep giving other characters agency in these moments other than Sora—let Aqua and Ven play centerstage in returning Terra, rather than Sora’s magic. Don’t make Sora the savior of every story—it feels cheap and demeans the character journeys we’ve been invested in for so long when they don’t play an active and significant role in their resolution. -Don’t have Kairi just be kidnapped again after 30-seconds of scripted fighting, after promising to -finally- invest in her immensely untapped potential. Have Saix (+Xemnas?) versus Sora, Xion, Roxas, Kairi, and Axel (also, explain how Axel got his keyblade -back-). Axel, even though he couldn’t face Xemnas, still has -powerful- character moments—at least give Kairi the same respect. Make that the last scripted battle, so that Kairi accompanies Sora to meet Mickey and Riku. -Either have Kairi use her infinite-training to join the fight with Xemnas, Ansem, and YX (to resonate that the whole Destiny Trio is together at the end, evolved, but together) or have her doing something else important (maybe with, I dunno, PoH POWERS?!). Have her ACTIVELY sacrifice herself for Sora, mirroring what he did for her in KH1, rather than MX passively killing her for no good goddamn reason while snarking at the camera that Kairi exists literally only for Sora’s motivation—even though Sora was already charging MX. Also show Riku have some damn emotion about his other best-friend. Sorry, I’m reaallly salty here. -Don’t have MX give up so easily, and get his motivation to work better with what came before in all these years. Don’t swap it out to something else in literally the last 30 minutes of the game. Don’t let the story treat flippantly him being the cause of everyone’s pain and suffering , as he is given a divine “thumbs-up” by turning into a kid with his best bud, giggling, and floating away into the light of Kingdom Hearts. What was that? Xehanort deserves better than that. Have him struggle to the end, and have our heroes really counter him—thematically, emotionally, and physically. Have Eraqus usher him away—stubborn to the end. If you want to redeem him, Nomura, you gotta be setting that stuff up WAAAAAY earlier. -Have anyone, anyone, other than Sora also care that Kairi is now missing. Have Riku and Sora go together to find her—because, you know, they’re BFFs and have the power to. Preferably explain and make it playable how they do that. Then have the lovely ending with Namine returning and with everyone together (except redeem Isa better). Keep everyone’s great new clothes, and have the whole party on the beach—end happily, with everyone (seemingly) together again in satisfied bliss. Wrap up the saga on a cathartic high note, for goodness’ sake. Then, and only then, Nomura gets to keep his ending—but in its proper place, separate in our minds from the ending-ending, in which we can feel full satisfaction for 16 years of investment. -In the Epilogue, before going to the Foretellers, show Sora, Kairi, and Riku leaving the Island. Riku and Kairi are on ahead, everything seems happy and complete (joking about Sora finally getting his mom’s dinner, eh?), when suddenly Sora hears the echo of YX telling him that “there’s a cost for it all” and that “it’s too late for him”—suddenly, Sora fades away. Show Riku/Kairi reactions -together-. Fade his fading into the dust of the Keyblade Graveyard. Do all the Epilogue. Do the Secret Ending. Everything on whatever track Nomura wants—but for us, the audience, all of us, we FINALLY GET SOLID, CATHARTIC CLOSURE FOR EVERYONE IN THIS SAGA AFTER 16 YEARS—WITHOUT IT ALL BEING TEASER BAIT FOR SOME UNION CROSS/TWEWY CROSSOVER COMBINED WITH NOMURA’s OBSESSIVE BITTERNESS OVER FFv13! Sorry, also salty about that. -Secret Ending is Riku AND Kairi going together to find Sora in Shibuya. Boom. -Also, for all our sakes, get rid of the concept of worldlines and minimize the time travel here, plz. That’s the quickest way to undermine the stakes of your story. Tl;dr: Give us more of the characters and their agency, don’t have them act OOC for bad plotting, give us a mid-climax to slow down the rushed 3-hour ending, let us appreciate what’s happening with more characterization, explain some things better, don’t fridge Kairi (and everyone other than Sora, really), give us a real, cathartic ending for 16 years of investment—then tease us in the epilogue/secret. Thoughts? Too much to ask? Too little? I tried only to make only minimal changes to Nomura’s vision, adjusted to some universally shared criticisms among fans. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this and what you liked/didn’t like! If you liked this at all, I’ve been writing Kingdom Hearts at Fanfiction under the name “Marsuvees” (with hopefully increasing quality) for over ten years. I love this series deeply, and hope Nomura can get it back on track next time. He really needs to get other people involved in writing and plotting.

[isaaclaforeze-remade]

i don't know final fantasy, what's wrong with crisis core :o

this is like 3 pages long

let’s see. where do i begin...

Shin-Ra’s wrongdoing is completely swept aside, ignored, and even sometimes outright erased in the games narrative. This is because the main character, Zack Fair, is someone you’re supposed to like but who works for Shin-Ra. Shin-Ra was one of the main villains of the entire original story. Its status as such was not unfounded - it’s guilty of causing climate change on Gaia, imperialism / colonialism against Wutai (as well as everywhere else, just a longer time ago), human experimentation, genocide, maintaining a dictatorship, and basically every war crime out there.

Aeris Gainsborough is depicted as weak and is mostly just there in the plot of Crisis Core for Zack to have a love interest, which is super shitty. She’s someone who grew up in the slums after escaping a Shin-Ra lab, so shes tough in her own way in canon (i.e. in the original game.) This is more disappointing because she’s a very interesting character and learning more about her upbringing would’ve been really interesting if it wasn’t all about a man in her life. Crisis Core was released for FF7′s 10th anniversary, as a prequel. It would’ve been far better had it focused on the actual characters of FF7, rather than humanizing Shin-Ra for no reason.

As I mentioned before, Aeris exists in Crisis Core only to be a love interest for Zack. Zack is largely an irrelevant character in FF7, only appearing in flashbacks and occasionally alluded to in dialogue. Said dialogue was left ambiguous as to whom it was talking about, making Zack even more obscure. So, who was Zack in FF7?

If he is to be a sympathetic character, it’s likely that he was drawn in as a child by Shin-Ra’s propaganda for the Wutai War, enlisting for SOLDIER in his early teens. It’s unlikely he would have known the scope of Shin-Ra’s crimes or even the reality of what killing a person is like. It’s not hard to imagine he would come to regret his enlistment into SOLDIER, however, there exists within Shin-Ra an entire department meant to blackmail and threaten others not to cross the company. It’s likely that his parents or possibly even his entire hometown could have been threatened should he express any desire to desert.

This would be a fairly complex character with interesting and compelling storytelling, which, of course, Square Enix is too lazy to go for.

Instead, Zack is an upbeat, hyperactive teenager who fight with a smile on his face. He’s entirely loyal to Shin-Ra. The game is very careful not to let you see or play as Zack killing actual people, even though that’s exactly what SOLDIER is for. It instead opts for having him kill “clones” of other SOLDIERS (which is still chilling if you’ve actually played the original game, since Cloud is revealed to be a failed clone of Sephiroth. Cloud is his own person with his own motivations and morals, as we’ve gotten to know throughout the game.)

Cloud is in this game, unfortunately. I do not say this is unfortunate lightly.

From the original game, we have implications in dialogue that Cloud was “always picking fights,” and from the water tower scene we know he feels ostracized from other people and maintains a sense of arrogance as a coping mechanism for this. You’d expect this to be how he’s depicted in Crisis Core, right? Abrasive, tough, though perhaps knocked down a notch or two from working in the military. But, no, he’s actually depicted as timid and weak. It’s a huge disappointment when that’s nothing like the asshole Cloud everybody learned to love.

There’s these two new SOLDIER 1st Class characters that were never in or mentioned in the original game. Their names are Angeal Hewley and Genesis Rhapsodos. Yes, those are really their names. 

Genesis’ only lines, really, are him reciting this stupid poem / play they made up for the game. it’s the most pretentiously-written thing to have ever disgraced my eardrums and i hate him for repeating the same lines from it constantly. i hate this man with a rage so all-consuming and disgraceful that i feel actively demonic by how hateful he makes me feel. please do not talk to me about this man or i will stop being friends with you if i already am and i’m COMPLETELY serious when i say this

angeal is like.. all he ever talks about is honor, honor, honor. shut the fuck up dude, you sound like a scratched mulan CD. ultimately he turns into a monster because of the experiments shin-ra did on him and he kills himself by forcing zack to kill him, boo fucking hoo. you have the strength to snap your own neck don’t give your kid a guilt complex you pompous asshole

the nibelheim incident, a major plot point in the original game and a very chilling moment, is retconned so that genesis can be in it and look all important. the reason this was done was because gackt(?), a famous jrock star, played the mocap/voice acting for genesis, and square wanted as much gackt stan money as they could get. it was pathetic and an embarrassment then, and it’s pathetic and embarrassing now. 

on top of all this, there’s weird gay-coding thrown in there in between zack and cloud to make zack’s death seem more tragic and get more fujo money. it worked.

did i mention angeal and genesis are also made conventionally attractive? also sephiroth isn’t an ugly little hojo-spawn like i prefer to imagine him as with the low polygon OG. so naturally there are a lot of fujoshis that ruin the fanbase experience for the original game by hijacking it with their libido for some irrelevant, poorly written cc characters. over the years this has just amplified my disappointment / embarrassment towards crisis core into active hatred, because as a trans gay man my experience being soured by the excessive amt of crazy fujoshis in the tag is suuuuuper damaging. doesn’t help that they love to write awful fetishy porn of cloud as a trans man and that makes it impossible for me to look for actual content of the headcanon which is disheartening.

i think thats it. thanks for reading

[altocat]

There's one thing that bothers me about the First SOLDIER storyline in Ever Crisis. Why do not like Glenn, Matt, and Lucia? Is it because longtime veteran FF7 fans see them as unnecessary filler characters who were "shoehorned" into an OG FF7 character's backstory? I've seen furious FF7 fans hate them just because they had more Banners than Barret and Red XIII. I've also seen the trio criticized for their morally questionable actions too even though our main party in the OG literally starts out blowing up a reactor, causing the deaths of numerous innocent people. Cait Sith rightfully calls Barret out on his hypocrisy when the former worries about Marlene but dismisses the deaths of a lot of people as just "a few casualties." And then there is Zack, who was one of the SOLDIERs taking part in the Wutai War. He had no malicious intentions toward the Wutaians, but it still didn't change the fact he killed the people who were just defending their country. Morally gray characters are the bread and butter of FF7, so I don't understand what's wrong with having more morally gray characters.

The P0 trio has some clumsy aspects to them that take away points--they're only really remorseful AFTER they kill all the Rhadorans. Sephiroth is arguably more sympathetic in that he's still a child and also never enlisted with Shinra, not to mention he's been bred and conditioned into killing since he was born. But the P0 trio more or less goes along with it, reluctance or otherwise. So it makes them feel a bit more hypocritical afterwards. Matt and Lucia also regretfully don't have much to them as characters beyond a few little quirks. They both feel kind of useless in retrospect.

With ALL this said, I still do like the P0 trio. They added a lot to Sephiroth as a character and I've grown to genuinely like Glenn for what he is, even if the writing on him is a little messy. I think maaaaaybe they should have approached the issue with the Rhadorans slightly differently. Or at least made it look less one sided so that our protagonists don't come off as actual murderers. There are blurred lines in war sometimes, or at least there are malleable aspects to "kill or be killed" on the battlefield that allow for some level of sympathy or moral grayness. I don't think the story dwelled on it enough. They did with Sephiroth, but less so with the trio. I'd chalk that up to limitations with chapters more than anything else.

But like I said, I do like the trio and I'd be down for seeing more of them. I can see why people might not like them, whether that's for legit reasons or petty ones. Glenn at the very least is NOT a "filler" character since he's shown to have made a serious impact on Sephiroth's personality as an adult. And that counts for something.

As for veteran fans...well they're just going to complain either way lmao it's already a lost cause in that regard. The larger fanbase is known for doing that.

[altocat]

Saw a take on Seph that was quite interesting, but argued that in the OG he was always meant to be "a bad guy turned even worse" prior to Compilation, and that he was more interesting as a representation of pure Narcissism/Ego (something that parallels Cloud) rather than an actual character as he apparently didn't need to be back then. Knowing your thoughts on him, what do you think?

Yeah, I don't buy that.

While it's hard to get a specific read on him in the OG due to the graphics and lack of voice acting, there's nothing there to suggest him to be arrogant or narcissistic, at least before Nibelheim. There's unused dialogue that actually displays his humanity (Asking trooper Cloud about his motion sickness, wanting to retire from Shinra, etc). He's a bit cold here and there, but he's there's nothing overtly unsettling apart from how strong he is in combat. Plus, there are one too many interactions with other characters that give him a sympathetic edge (Lucrecia, Hojo, Vincent, etc.). He's an excellent mirror to Cloud in many other ways. Ego (besides confidence and reputation) isn't one of them.

So no. That's just people clamoring for another boring pure evil villain. There were layers to Sephiroth even back then. To deny them is to deny the essence of what Sephiroth stands for--a pitiful monster.

[altocat]

So got any headcanons on why Genesis and Sephiroth wings are black while Angeal’s is white or do you think that it’s just because Genesis and Sephiroth both seem like goth kids so their minds influence them to get black wings while Angeal is basically the nice jock who cares for everyone?

It's obviously Square not-so-subtly showing where their morality lies. Angeal is "good", Genesis and Sephiroth are "bad".

Some interesting observations:

-Angeal is the only one with technically two wings. Does this mean that he is inherently "altered" slightly in being "good"? Angeal has presumably done a lot of shady things as a soldier for Shinra (comes with the territory after all), but somehow he's able to reflect a stronger morality?? It's weird. He also has the shortest wings of the lot. Honestly, his wing is really puny compared to Genesis and especially Sephiroth.

-Genesis' wing is not as full-black as Sephiroth's is. There are very light smudges of gray mixed there too. Now this could just be the quality of the psp's textures and graphics. I looked at the trailer for CC Reunion and yep, it's full black now. His wing is also slightly jagged, with its overall shape rather inconsistent. In the Banora cutscene, it's clearly very thin and scraggly. Other times, it looks fuller. I personally like the idea of Genesis having a crooked, sickly, slightly off-black wing to reflect the fact that while he IS doing pretty evil things, it also comes from the corruption of the degradation process. And in my little post-CC Gen world, it's still bent and zig-zaggy, but the color has altered slightly to something a bit darker gray. Gen’s trying to be a “hero” now after all.

-Sephiroth's wing is not shown canonically until Advent Children. TECHNICALLY it was in KH first but we won't count that. He never sprouts it in CC nor did he in the OG. So I really do wonder if it would be as black and...spooky looking as it is in AC if he grew it in CC instead. So my Sephcanon is that it would have been a flat gray in Crisis Core timeline, maybe flecked with some white here and there. Sephiroth is by no means pure and innocent--he's killed so many people as a soldier--but he is also portrayed in a much kinder, sympathetic light. So who knows?

[altocat]

Alright, I think that killing Aerith in the Remake (or Rebirth or what will come after) wouldn't be as impcatful as it was in og, since we've already experienced that pain, so I have this headcanon that they will kill Sephiroth, but not the evil, insane Sephiroth we've known for two decades, but a somehow redeemed Sephiroth, and they will kill him right when the party started to accept him as one of them, and when the public started to become attached to him.

Nothing is just months that I have this theory wandering around in my head and I wanted to share it with someone other than my irl friends who are probably tired of listening to mie talking about ffvii :)

I am not too optimistic at the prospect that Sephiroth will ultimately be redeemed, much less actually join the team. I don't think they could cram that into just two games and, knowing Seph, I think it's very likely that he's just up to something devious again.

Don't forget, Sephiroth is still a murderer. He might be sympathetic, there might be the factor of Jenova's influence, and he even trying to genuinely change his fate, but his actions are still inexcusable. If he were to change or become an ally, I'd see him more as an anti-villain of sorts. I don't imagine Cloud or Tifa ever forgiving him, nor should they be expected to. And even if he gets killed off, Sephiroth always finds a way to come back.

But who knows? Anything might be possible. It could be that the Sephiroth we saw at the Edge of Creation was in fact a different Sephiroth. Or maybe a CC Seph looking to stop himself??? That's a big stretch. But we'll just have to see!

[altocat]

Glad to know we all appreciate a fictional psychopathic mass murderer

Sorry if this is too random

Sephiroth is terrible rofl. Literally the worst. The stuff he does in the OG is nothing less than evil and reprehensible.

...but he's also really interesting and his pre-insanity CC self is very sympathetic and oddly endearing so he's fun to write and gush over.

Sad broken little monster with mommy issues. 😢

[glowyjellyfish]

I just played from the train graveyard through the Aerith flashback today, and concluded I really could not handle any more feelings and quit for the day. Spoilers for ff7r through that (mid-chapter 13), spoilers for the whole OG:

-I knew this part would be rough but oh my god

-Controlling Aerith running through sector 7, telling at people to leave, rescuing small children, and finally getting to Marlene! Aerith and Marlene!

-the trio’s deaths were all so hard to get through, but to me Wedge was the worst; he almost got out and he was helping save people and trying to save his cats! D:

-oh no I though I wasn’t going to get any bonus Reeve but he tried to send Cait Sith in to sector seven! Probably just to warn people as I don’t know that he would be bold enough to try to actively stop it yet, but oh my god Reeve my heart

-I have never cried this hard in Midgar before

-and don’t worry, the brief moment when Cloud remembered Sephiroth talking about being an Ancient got expanded so that current-Sephiroth takes that opportunity to appear to cloud and be like “hey buddy, how you doing? still surviving? still functional? gaining levels? awesome.” It’s like a weird evil pep talk where Sephiroth is clearly aware of the effect he has on cloud, but wants to encourage him anyway because cloud’s the only functional clone. That’s my take anyway.

-I go back and forth on how I think the guardians/watchmen of fate are connected to things (sorry, I can never remember what is the canon name for those things), and figure I really need to finish the game first, but right now I would put good money on Sephiroth actively steering Cloud towards the Shinra building in any way he can so that Cloud can activate and/or release Jenova. Not necessarily via guardians of fate, but I’m not ruling that out.

-all the Turks so far are all perfect every time. Reno’s like a feral street punk somebody put in a suit, Rude is stoic and kind of a tank, and I have already gone too deep in loving how much they care about each other, and Tseng is smooth and dignified. And the game walks the fine line of making the Turks grey and human and sympathetic without robbing them of their menace. I really appreciate that the game allowed Reno and Rude to take a moment to discuss how fucked up their orders are, but kept it between them, and didn’t stop them from giving their job 1000%. My only complaint is that I wish they made current Tseng look a little older—he’s at least ten years older than Aerith, and he should not be looking the same now as he did fifteen years ago. Also, I would like to know how Rude knows Tifa. In the OG it was easy to assume he just got a crush on her while encountering avalanche during the game, but here he prevents Reno from shooting her in the first moment during the game that he even sees her, as far as I’m aware. So how does he know her?