#My partner Jim and I were out gay men

[remembertheplunge]

Ugly Betty says NO to Prop 8 (2008)

October 31, 2008

Jim bought a life size Obama (card board cut out)—it stands by our front door.

Neighbors in the last duplex across the street put up two “No on 8” signs and an Obama sign yesterday. 

The “Yes on 8” duplex across the street pointed their sign toward our house. Actually, they have two.   And they put up a McPalin sign after we put up the life sized Obama.

Ugly Betty, her Dad and sister did a “No on 8” ad last night during Ugly Betty, aimed at Latinos. 

It ran later, too.

Diane Feinstein also has a powerful ad “it will change the constitution. It (Prop. 8) equals discrimination.”

The Yes on 8s stole Troy’s  porch light.  They put in their porch light. 

End of entry

Notes: 1/4/2025

You can see that Project 25 was already brewing with the advent of Proposition 8 and its ban on gay marriage which passed in 2008. 2008 is not that long ago. Even though Proposition 8 was later overturned and the right for gays to marry has been made a part of the California Constitution as of November 5, 2024 passage of Proposition 3, there are lots of people out there like our across the street "Yes on 8" neighbor mentioned in the above 2008 entry. They want to force us back into the dark pre Stone Wall days. In other words , they want us silenced, back in the closet and locked in forever. We have to "point our signs" back at them and say, no, we are out, proud and we are not going back. Once you see, you cannot unsee!

[maybe-boys-do-love]

Finished Last Twilight, and I'm not adding to the ableism discourse, because most things have already been said and with a lot of beautiful nuance that I agree with. But I do want to talk about how that ending arrived because of Aof Noppharnach's consistent symbolic commentary on the experience of living with HIV in much of his work, with an approach that's unique among all queer content. Imma skip Gay OK Bangkok since its not even a metaphor there, but I'll explain my rationale for the others, and we can just appreciate the foundation Gay OK Bangkok lays for us to think about the rest of his stuff.

The motif of life-saving medical intervention comes up in all but one of the works he takes screenwriting credit on. He's Coming To Me: P'Med dies originally because of a lack of medical intervention. 1000 Stars: Tian gets a heart transplant. Moonlight Chicken: this one's more subtle, but the whole series is explicitly established in the context of reopening following the COVID pandemic, and Wen will later say to Jim, "we are survivors." It was this line upon rewatch that made me start considering how thorough this theme is. Survivors of what? The meaning is three-fold: hard lessons in love, COVID, and, for gay men of their age, the HIV epidemic. The hope of medical intervention for Day's condition takes on a secondary meaning, with this trend in mind, even if the mixed disability politics between visual impairment and being HIV positive really fails.

His comparisons are more intricate though. Pills and daily regimens are a consistent motif. Day has his daily eye-drops, Tian his pills (which are presumably immune-suppressants to help accept the transplant but I'm not going to Viki right now and watching every ep to find out so someone feel free to correct me). 'But people take medicine for lots of things,' you say. 'Just because its gay doesn't mean its an HIV metaphor!' You have a fair point! But here's where Aof gets real fun and sneaky. P'Med dies from lack of pills the same year Torfun, whose heart will save Tian's life, is born, 1997. I'm mentioned once before 1997 as important for the class-conscious Aof because of the Asian financial crisis that Thailand set off that year. However, 1997 is also important because its the year HAART, or Highly Active Anti-Retroviral Therapy was first used in Thailand (it had hit the market only one year earlier). HAART, a multi-drug regimen, boosted someone's life-expectancy with HIV up by 15 years, and its side-effects were significantly milder than previous approaches. The medical conditions of P'Med and Torfun's heart point us directly to HAART, and what it could offer.

Now we're moving out of the medical and into the experiential connections because, while Dark Blue Kiss is the only work Aof chose to take credit for screen-writing without incorporating medical references, it is by far the most dense with references to the issue of concealment. Its in the narrative as people closet identities and hide relationships, yes, but its in SO much of the visuals, too, most obviously the Pete & Kao mug hidden inside its coozie. It's easy to see the surface story about gay visibility and the closet, but there's a more specific subtext here about the associated condition that intensified the stigma of being gay and how that impacts your sense of self. Bad Buddy explores this issue less, but even in the BL Bubble, its haunted by the stigma of homophobia--it just shuffles it over onto rivalry so the audience can experience it without reproducing it.

However, the grief and shame of surviving when others haven't haunts Aof's other works much more intensely. Jim and Tian both are hung up on guilt for someone's death that they did not actually cause, continuing to pursue the goals for those that passed rather than their own. Then, there's Thun and P'Med, which is the best allegory for living and dating with HIV, bar none. It goes into the feelings of stigma and the limits of physical intimacy with partners that living with HIV caused, especially prior to Truvada's introduction in 2004. Even then, the show depicts how a HIV negative partner maintains the choice to participate in their own regimens, as Thun's desires for physical intimacy with P'Med manage their relationship and never the other way around.

This sense of required separation and gay identities that are less sex-focused also play into oft-maligned motifs in Aof's work. He's talked explicitly about people's criticisms of the limited physical intimacy in his earlier works that led to the more prominent stuff in Bad Buddy, but I hope given the above context, we can appreciate why physical intimacy is less of a priority than other kinds (and I'd add that 1000 Stars, which got the most sh*t about it, is actually one of the most erotically-charged BLs out there because of it's restraint). Then, you have the finales where characters separate for periods of time, and while I don't see this as explicitly tied to HIV experiences (Aof is literally following the book of romcom beats there, even if everyone whines about it), I can't help but appreciate a tangential connection to loving beyond time and distance that was required for those who lived with or lost loved ones to HIV.

I would've loved to see a version of Last Twilight that didn't absolutely bungle its metaphor, because it had every element to be something great (except, I'm sorry to the fans, lead actors with the necessary queer romantic chemistry). Watching the last episode, when the show seemed to finally rediscover plot and pacing, all the other pieces that had been drowned out by the disability conversation peeked their heads out, and I saw what the show wanted to be. The topics related to living with HIV of stigma, survivor's guilt, and assistive technologies: they were all right there, not just for Day but for everyone, if only they had been given the proper time to marinate to develop more complexity. It's the rare instance of a show where I'll choose to spend time imagining what could have been rather than obsessing over what was or just moving on. Even a misstep from Aof, like this, is overflowing with so many more layers than most series. The failures of Last Twilight, in relationship to his other works, even let you see how much food for thought he's providing.

[divorcingjimmatthews]

time to inflict my jade and khatri AU headcanons on yall. jhatri AU masterpost

i hadn't thought about khatri in a while and that lovely ask brought back all the khatri thoughts please bear 🐻 with me

khatri is so repressed gay priest coded to me that i actually forget that's not a canon plot point most of the time

to me he's constantly having sexual thoughts about boyd that he is sooo deeply ashamed of, mostly because he believes that boyd is straight and would change the way he sees him if he knew

in any case with the dead wife situation boyd's got going on it's definitely just easier to push any lustful thoughts aside. until jade shows up :)

yall khatri was soo sweet and caring with jade!! and his reaction when jade flirted with him while high? kristi rolled her eyes, boyd slapped him away, but khatri had a fucking experience there, you cannot change my mind

pictured above: what could have been the start of a beautiful relationship if the writers were not so concerned with superflous things like "story" and "plot"

it might have been the first time in his life that another guy openly called him beautiful or looked at him like that. or it might also have reminded him of a boyfriend he had or almost had in his youth. take your pick. both work

also, we cannot ignore that jade is a really attractive guy and that he's literally handcuffed in this scene. it's such a peak meet cute come on look at them. look at their hands

now, i can see khatri going to check up on jade the next morning or a few days later. jade is completely alone after all so i feel like khatri would tell him that he can stop by the church if he wants. jade would just laugh it off and then be like oh you're actually being serious?

but he would go. not for his own sake but because tobey was catholic or something and he was kind of losing his mind when they buried him so he didn't get to give a proper goodbye. khatri does a little funeral service just for him and jade is a mess afterwards

they would sit and talk and khatri would ask him if tobey was his partner and jade would feel safe enough with khatri to explain the complexities of their situationship. khatri would share some of his own memories about loving other men in return

khatri is basically resigned to eternal unhappiness tm but jade is clingy and needy and entitled so he would find excuses to see khatri all the time. i stand by my belief that khatri couldve fixed jade. imo most of jade's bratty attitude comes from being defensive against what he percieves as threats but with khatri i think he would just feel safe to be himself

jade would obviously have a big problem with khatri being resigned to unhappiness tm and i think he would just rope him into projects like he did with jim and tabitha

they would have a lot of discussions about religion where jade would be a total prick but khatri would humor him because jade clearly needs the venting session and because khatri can really use a lighthearted break from his internal monologue of guilt and shame. symbiosis

obviously people would talk because it would make no damn sense. why is a priest going around collecting car engine parts

and indeed a big part of why they're spending time together at all is because they enjoy each other's company. just like with boyd the situation doesn't really work in their favor because jade is not really thinking about anything besides finding a way out of the town

one day some people are looking at them a little weird and jade knows that look so he gets really worked up and yells something like "yeah i'm fucking your priest if that's what you wanna know, can you move along now?"

as soon as he turns back to khatri he realises that he really fucked up, though. once they're alone in private jade apologises and admits that he said that because he kind of wishes he was fucking the priest but "listen, that's not the point, the point is that i'm really sorry, i shouldn't have said that, and i shouldn't have said that here, and... fuck"

"i'm just sorry, alright?" before leaving the church while feeling terrible for having fucked up that bad. sadly i think they... wouldn't really get to fix it? since jade would be getting sucked deeper into the whole visions situation around this time and khatri has the whole deal with sara going on

which is another reason why khatri would shut jade away. maybe jade would go try to fix things and ask to come in and khatri would have to tell him no. because he literally has his best friend's murderer locked up in the basement LMAO

if someone else wants to add to this or sees a way in which it could work please do add to this i am literally so starved and i have so many cute headcanons for them if they were together but i cant see khatri going for it so i just suffer

[indigovigilance]

Aziraphale, Kermit the Frog, and Fraggle Rock

Inspo from @crowleys-hips, images shamelessly ripped from original post:

The costumes and set design in the Book of Job episode were supposedly inspired mostly by The Ten Commandments but I’m ignoring that for right now because this is more fun. Now that I’ve written it, this is actually one of my dark ones.

Ready? Let’s go.

read on Ao3

The Frog Prince

[Source]

Kermit, created in 1955, was originally an abstract character without a defined species. He did not [officially] become a frog until The Frog Prince episode in 1971. At the same time, he gained his pointed collar. Kermit is not the prince in this retelling, but is one of the many frogs, who don’t believe that the Frog Prince is actually human and try to convince the Frog Prince that even if there is a curse, they don’t need to try to break it, being a frog is great!

Sing out for the swamp and sing out for the ooze The life of a frog is the life you should choose Sing out for the mud and sing out for the bog It’s ever so jolly just being a frog We love the old mud hole, we say that we soak The feeling’s so good that we just gotta croak The muck and the mire, the slush and the slime Are the reasons a frog has a wonderful time

It’s a very weird musical number. I have exactly one semester of music theory under my belt but it sounds awfully minor key to me.

It’s very much about bullying someone who doesn’t feel like they belong into conforming. Exchange “frog” for “angel” and we’ve got a pretty on-the-nose parallel story here.

Two Interpretations

First: Aziraphale is a prince among frogs whose unique identity is being ignored. The ones he has turned to for help are ignoring his pleas and insisting that their way is the best way, even though it is clearly not.

Second: Aziraphale is the frog! Kermit gained his collar when he finally began to solidify as a character with a set identity. Both of these themes apply to Aziraphale’s arc in Book of Job.

*topic change*

Jim Henson & Richard Hunt

Coming back to the extreme queer theming of Season 2 (God bless you GO production team) we have a nod to Jim Henson and Richard Hunt. Much like Pterry and the Notorious NRG, both men began their artistic journeys very young. Henson began in high school, where he began developing what would later become the Muppets; he continued his work on puppets on Sesame Street. He is the creator of Kermit the Frog. He’s also well-known for The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth, other queer culture mainstays. Some years later, at 18 years old, Richard Hunt shot his shot and asked for a job puppeteering on Sesame Street in 1972; he got it. He would continue to work as a puppeteer with Jim Henson on the Muppets and related works until he died in 1992 at the age of 40 due to complications of AIDS.

Gone But Not Forgotten || Terry Pratchett

If you have not read my meta on Terry Pratchett’s representation in the Final Fifteen, I will link it at the bottom as well and highly suggest you read it. It’s not necessary reading for what comes next, but it is relevant.

Richard Hunt was openly gay and heavily involved in the New York gay community during the AIDS epidemic. He was in a relationship with a painter named Nelson Bird, who died of AIDS related complications in 1985. There is some speculation that Fraggle Rock Season 5 Episode 7 is an artistic representation of Richard Hunt losing his partner. In that episode, Wembley makes a new friend, Mudwell, played by Richard Hunt, that he abruptly loses at the end of the episode following a confession of mutual affection. You can follow the link below to watch the full episode. The final-fifteen parallel content begins at 12:30:

Gone But Not Forgotten (Fraggle Rock S05E07)

The loss is followed by a conversation between two characters that centers around remembering those who have been lost by keeping the things and memories they left behind, and the partner who [survived] goes through rituals of grieving.

If you scrolled past it but would like to read it now, here’s a link to my meta Terry Pratchett’s representation in the Final Fifteen.

[respectthepetty]

I love director Tee and cinematographer Jim. I'm getting them in Hidden Agenda, and now I Feel You Linger in the Air. Look at Jom imprisoned in his own emotions. LOOK AT THIS.

And the stars hanging from all the booths with barriers between him and all the merchants. Look. at. it!

I just love this filming pair so much, so let's hop into Jom and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day.

This show already has me scared.

This boss is a jerk, but insert a Titanic joke.

NO! Don't zoom in on the creepy shit! I don't wanna fuck with los espookys. Just give me my historical romance, damn it!

And now shit is falling apart right in front of our historical romance salad.

TWO YEARS?!

Men really ain't shit.

And she's smoking while pregnant!

Now an attempted sexual assault!

How quickly this turned into an episode of Club Friday Vice Versa.

I like Ming; therefore, I think he will do something out of desperation that he is going to regret because he is too poor to contour.

This thief is cute. Hopefully he is the "be gay, do crime" kind of guy, and not the "gonna ruin everyone's life" type.

A plumeria represents beauty and new beginnings, while the jasmine represents good luck, beauty, and love. This man is making a garland.

Men look so good in pastels. They could be a 6, but when they put on a pastel, they are a 9. This plant daddy was already a 10, so . . .

GET OUT OF THE WATER!

I didn't mute this episode because everything was pleasing to my ears, so the second episode will get the unmute treatment as well. It's Director Tee who always partners with cinematographer Jim, so the visuals are great as usual, and I don't just mean the men who are beautiful but the actual scenes were lovely.

I was already excited, but next week we have sensual wrist touching!

The next three months are going to be Obsession Autumn because I'm not letting one of these shows go. They are all mine, and I'm going to have to start liking the taste of coffee, so I can operate off of an unhealthy lack of sleep.

No Regrets.

[a-froger-epic]

do you think that the boys had certain views on familial dynamics especially in childhood? they all grew up in the 1950s with super enforced and strict gender roles, but they were also teenagers when counterculture began to become mainstream. what are your thoughts?

Hey anon!

That depends on what exactly you mean by "certain views". You mention gender roles, so I am guessing you probably mean in terms of child-rearing and women being responsible for house and home?

Yes, to some degree all four of them would have had that sort of family dynamic in mind when they were young men. Don't get me wrong, I can't see any of them being the type to insist their girlfriend/wife doesn't work and *has* to stay home, while they don't lift a finger. Not at all. You might be surprised, but looking at a street interview from 1961, for example, most men already agree that they should in fact be helping out with the housework. At least on weekends, haha. But equally, consider that in 1982, 43% of fathers had never (never!) changed a nappy. (This number was down to 3% in 2000, by the way.) Some things, like whether men should so much as be present in the room during the birth of their own child was still somewhat controversial until the 90s. God, I remember, when I was a teen in early 2000 Robbie Williams jokingly compared watching his wife give birth to watching his favourite pub burn down (as in watching her vagina tear, lovely that). What I am saying is that I can't imagine the boys would not have held a fair few beliefs about gender roles that we now consider wildly outdated. Of course they would have.

Take Freddie, for example. I have seen people twist themselves into knots trying to explain why he would have called Mary his "commonlaw wife", saying that he must have said it to make the press believe he was straight, etc. But I think the truth is much simpler. In the time when Freddie was alive, same sex marriage was simply not a reality. It wasn't even a dream. I don't think Freddie could have fathomed, at the time, that there was any other kind of marriage but that between man and woman. He called her his commonlaw wife, thinking "if it were not for the fact that I like men, she would be my wife". And don't come at me about him calling Jim his husband. Of course he did, in the same way some gay guys will jokingly and flirtingly refer to their husbands and boyfriends as their "wife" sometimes nowadays. As in, something that person cannot actually be, but the sentiment is there.

Also, it's hard to say what the boys' position on things like the woman being the bread winner might have been because their girlfriends and wives had no chance to be that. The Queen boys were rock stars, and boy, were they winning the bread. Recording albums, busy schedules, off on tour for months. What could their partners and mothers of their children do but, well, stay home and mind the children?

I hope I answered your question to some extent, haha.

Thanks for the ask!

[flower-observation]

It's Pretty Much Just Me and the Patterson's.

January 4th, 2025

We've been to two bars already tonight, Cosmic Dog Outpost and River Remedy Brewing. When you're looking for a dive and micro brews in Rome, Georgia, prepare to be disappointed because the area only offers one or the other.

Sports Page offers you everything a person looking for a dive could ask for though. The bar is settled at the back of a large parking lot, which is necessary for the number of motorcycles you can find here even in the winter. Affiliated bikers? Sign me up. Outside there are cute lights hung around the outdoor patio which distract from the tarps and plastic sheeting used for insulation. The sign outside lists "No bullshit or drama" as reason number five to stay out, there's no mention of shoes or shirts on the list which is a great sign.

Upon entering the establishment, we are greeted by a woman named Heather, a blonde in her forties who introduces me to everyone that works there. Olivia who is running DJ and karaoke and Em who is working behind the bar. Heather is off for the night but tells me she just can't stay away and wanted to support Olivia who has been training on karaoke, looking up songs on YouTube, for two months and she is starting to get the hang of it. They serve beer in koozies and do not have anything on draft. Sports Page doesn't serve liquor, but this isn't a problem because everyone there has a "secret" bottle of liquor they all have stashed in various places around the bar. Heather chose egg nog liqueur as her handle and fed me several milky shots to get me to sing two karaoke songs with her, the third and fourth karaoke songs I've ever sung. Heather tells me about the list of folks on the wall written in pretty cursive, this is their banned patron list and I can't help but think we'll end up on the chalk board eventually.

Jonathan and I went to the back to play pool, after two games by ourselves we are joined in the pool area by six new friends. Shawna and Austin want to play doubles, Shawna is willfully terrible at the game and Austin has clearly grown up around a table. Shawna tells me she is 32 and Austin 28, they have been together for 14 years. Do the math yet? Shawna's brother Tyler is at the table next to us with his wife Chelsea, Chelsea had a baby two weeks ago and this is her first night out on the town. She looks tired. Shawna is ready for a party and starts giving me shots of Jim Beam from a red solo cup *you fill me up, let's have a party* and offers coke from a Styrofoam cup as a chaser. I rarely chase liquor anymore because my balls are huge, and this always garnishes MAD respect from the yocals. We're now fast friends and spend the rest of the night with the Patterson clan.

Kyle enters the bar with his woman, a woman whose name alludes me but is something like Hayley Mae or Kelly Anne, they are joined by a very young and attractive blonde girl. Jonathan makes mention to me that the new girl in the blue hoodie is cute, and I should chat her up. While Shawna and I are playing she tells me the new girl is her niece of seventeen and she definitely shouldn't be in the bar. While she settles in and hits her nicotine vape it's clear she's more than comfortable here and I imagine it's a common occurrence. Later in the evening Kyle offers us a bag, if the patches weren't enough, we know all we need to know about the Pattersons, that they are our kind of people and ones to be careful around.

Shawna is troubled by Jonathan and I and our unwillingness to label our relationship. When we first entered, she approached Jonathan alone and asked if he would sing karaoke with her, he agreed of course and asked if she was married. She said she was, and he told her good, that's my partner coming down the steps. She says the word partner is just for gay men and he should call me his girlfriend. I told her we were from Denver and it's a different world, and how else would people know we want to fuck 'em all. This isn't explanation enough and she is troubled. The south isn't always the area to be progressive, who knew?

We end the night by visiting two other dive bars, the Barrel and North Mesa. Both equally seedy as Sports Page but with a lot more bikers. At every place we go to we walk in like a pair of giant gods ready to rule, everyone comes and talks to us about our height. I am asked constantly how tall I am, Jonathan is starting to notice it and says things like "no one wants to know how tall I am anymore." It makes me laugh endlessly that he's jealous of the attention. Shawna made Austin go to McDonalds before we got to Mesa and he got me French fries, I stuck them in my pocket and am handling them out to everyone at the bar which makes me a lot of friends with the middle-aged men. At North Mesa the old biker we talk to lives next to the bar, at all these places everyone tells us to come back and we'll be a part of the family. They are all related already so I guess I need to get with one of them and make it official.

[gothamslostboy]

Asking for Jervis w/ male reader one bed troupe. I think it would be funny if he got all shy and blushy, and they woke up closer than they remember in the morning... Gay as shit for that man

A/N: I too am gay as shit for Jervis and love the one bed troupe. I know I said it’d be out tomorrow but I finished it early and don’t see the point in waiting to post.

You Need Better Pillows

Jervis Tetch x Male Reader

WORDS: 1,539

YOU JERVIS TETCH

He couldn’t believe this. It was HIS house. The mail was addressed to Jervis Tetch and still Jerome managed to convince him to share a room with one of the others. They all had to lay low for a bit, causing mass mayhem and killing people tended to make Jim Gordon the GCPD look for you, and Jervis’s house was the only one they didn’t know about.

Only problem: it is a 3 bedroom house, not 4. The other two rooms had twin beds and Jerome argued it would be easier to share his king sized bed then try to squeeze together on a twin. No he was rushing to tidy up his room while you three finished arguing about who got their own rooms.

Gosh he hoped Jerome won the argument, he really didn’t want to share a bed with a sadist who smells of sweat. Johnathan would be fine, the first thing he did once they arrived at the house was shower, and he didn’t seem like the type to kick or move in his sleep. If Y/N lost, oh my, there’s a possibility Y/N would be sleeping in his room tonight. Jervis’s pace quickened as he cleaned, mind & heart racing at the mere thought.

Y/N was the man who made him feel as though he was Alice, stumbling through wonderland lost and confused, still in awe of everyone and everything around. Before you, life was gray, dull, everything menial and slightly aggravating to do. The first day you were introduced to Jervis, standing next to Jerome & Johnathan, arm extended for a handshake, he began to see dull shades. Oh! As soon as your palms connected, it was almost breath taking how quickly grays turned blue, red, green, and ever other color under the Sun or Moon. Y/N was the perfect guy for Jervis, but he didn’t know if he could handle laying next to you, inhaling your perfect scent for hours. His heart might burst, and Jervis didn’t want to get your perfect skin dirty or risk waking you.

After the room was basically spotless, Jervis stayed pacing back and forth for what seemed like hours. What would he do if you were to sleep in his bed? Could you notice how he grinned like the Cheshire Cat next to him? Is it possible you’d return his feelings? Or would you be disgusted? Jervis never had the courage to as about your love life, if he discovered that his perfect partner was spoken for he’d have to hypnotize you into his arms, but he wanted you there willingly. Perhaps you weren’t interested in men at all? What would Jervis do then? He’d never force you to be a sexuality not belonging to you, but it’d hurt to much to live. Here goes his mind again, falling down the rabbit hole due to Y/N.

Ah ha! Jervis know what he’ll do, yes, he has the perfect solution, he’ll give up his room for you to share with Johnathan! Y/N L/N and Johnathan Crane are known by every “villain” in Gotham as completely platonic friends, best friends who do most everything together and have for years. Even before becoming rouges, the pair had been inseparable. He knows nothing will happen between you two, and you’d have to agree because then neither would be unfamiliar with sharing with the other. Yes, this will work nicely! Jervis strides over to his bedroom door, turning the doorknob and taking a few steps before bumping into something, or, as he discovered looking down, someone.

You let out a small woah as you fell, landing on your butt and peering up at Jervis, the annoyed glare disappeared from your features and a small twist in the corners of your lips taking over. Geez roomie, not even in bed yet and I’m falling for ya. Heat rose to Jervis’s cheeks as he leaned down to help you up, muttering apologizes before a slight rigidity shot through him.

Roomie? You had called him Roomie, which meant that indeed, Y/N and him will be sleeping in his room, in his bed, so close together. Wait- what else had you said? Jervis cleared his throat and turns himself back toward the room, hoping his face will return to its normal color before he must face you again. Ah, I’m assuming you lost the, what did Johnathan call it, “Battle of Sleep Conditions”? Yeah, turns out always picking rock is a horrible strategy. You shrug your shoulders as you follow Jervis, eyes darting around his room as you stop in the doorway, blissfully unaware of how panicked the man you’re conversing with is. A comfortable silence stretches over the room, well, comfortable for you. The quick gleams of your pupils and the subtle head nods are too inconspicuous for him to see as he scrambles to determine if your reaction is negative or positive. Instead of asking, his fingers intertwine themselves with they stringy ends of his throw blanket. Nice room Tetch, your place looks way better then whatever hell scape Jerome’s house is. Seriously, how’d he even come up with some of that stuff? Your words and small laugh let his shoulders fall and mouth exhale a small sound mimicking yours, white teeth coming into view. I’m not sure Y/N, perhaps the same way he comes up with all the horrors he’s created. Anyhow, thank you for the compliment, I’ve had to do quite a bit of redecorating since the old owners moved out. He sent you a slight exaggerated wink, feeling much better watching you gracefully travel about his room, fingers tracing faintly over the designs and engravings cluttering his possessions.

I supposed so, hey, is there a bathroom in this part of the house? I still have gunpowder on me and the one Johnathan used is waaayyy back there. You put down an old hat stand on his dresser to point left, the direction you had stumbled into him from. Of course, Jervis guides you to the side of the room he was on, this door here is to the master bathroom. Do you need anything? There should be all the necessary toiletries already. He pulls the door open and flips the light switch as he moves to give you a pathway in. Actually yes, if you don’t mind. GCPD got into the lab before I had a chance to grab my go bag, do you mind if I borrow so pajamas? I’m alright in this if not. A sheepish smile graces Jervis’s favorite face, and he finds it hard to speak over the deafening thump of his heart. Y/N, you can absolutely borrow something to sleep in, sorry the guards I got for you weren’t suitable for protecting your workspace. What would you like: silk, cotton, I have many different kinds to choose from. He scans the drawer of pajamas looking for a pair you’d like.

Don’t worry about it, guards lasted long enough for me to leave and that’s what matters. I’ll be good with just a T-shirt and boxers if that’s good with you Tetch, thanks a million! Once again tonight, Jervis finds himself hiding a blush for you as he hands over the clothing. Lovely Y/N will be sleeping in his bed, in his clothes, next to him! Hearing the water turn on, Jervis changes his own clothes and lays down, staring at the ceiling. While he ponders how the bed will be shared, his eyelids grow heavy. Despite trying to fight it, he succumbs to slumber before you can return, the days events catching up to him. After you finished your shower, you had quietly slipped under the covers on the opposite side, purposely leaving space between you and your secret crush to keep him comfortable.

Waking up the next morning, Jervis relished in the quiet. Seems he was the first to wake. He moved to stretch, suddenly feeling an unfamiliar weight causing him to freeze. Instead of a blanket, he found himself wrapped in Y/N’s grasp, head tucked under the other man’s chin. The panic and shock started to subside, though his embarrassment stayed. How had this happened? He fell asleep on one side of the bed yet here he is, cuddling on the other with a very much still asleep and unaware Y/N. Did he move over? Was he pulled over during the course of the night? Jervis remained as still as possible while he looked for clues to answer his many questions, but apparently not still enough.

You had stirred, pulling his back even closer to your chest & tightening the grip you had on his waist. Your pillows sucked, you’re too comfortable, go back to sleep Jervis. He heard your mumbled words and decided that maybe that was a good idea, so he began to get comfortable. He struggled for a bit before turning to face you, curling into your chest and letting a content sigh slip out, not seeming to notice the chuckle bouncing through you. With one last good morning , Jervis let himself drift off once more. More then happy to let his future self deal with the situation when he awakens.

[captain-lessship]

-If you feel comfortable writing for him-

Billy Hargrove x Hopper!male!reader x father!Jim Hopper

Hopper catching Billy making out with his son (R) and then R realizing that he just accidentally outed himself as gay to his very manly police officer father.

(I’m also blissfully ignoring that Billy is a problematic man whore and is just a trouble maker haha *cries*)

As someone who has been outed as a queer individual in a similar manner (My Dad saw me holding hands and kissing the cheek of my then partner ) this is what I needed.

also I think Hopper would be supportive but he would be scared for you and your safety. It’s the 80s and there was still stigma around this. I have linked two resources for anyone to read about how queer individuals, particularly gay men were treated (mainly due to the AIDS Crisis) and perceived and how the general views of queer people have changed.

UN: https://www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/hivaids-and-education-lessons-1980s-and-gay-male-community-united-states

Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/topic/homophobia/Contemporary-attitudes-toward-homosexuality

[charliethedino-12]

LGBTQ+ Gotham Headcanons

My gender, pronoun, and sexuality headcanons for Gotham characters.

-------------------------------------------------------

Harvey Bullock - Cisgender, He/Him, Gay.

The GCPD isn't an accepting or supportive place to work so he sleeps with women to protect himself. He's trying so hard to come off as straight. I mean, he and Scottie were engaged within less than a year of being together. I headcanon Fish as his beard. He wants to kiss Jim so badly.

Oswald Cobblepot - Transgender FTM, He/Him, Gay, and Asexual.

He would be offended and confused if you thought he was straight. Oswald is very open about his identity and will beat the shit out of you for misgendering him. He doesn't care about sex but is fine engaging in it if his partner (Ed) wants to. Gertrude was the most supportive person ever and always gave Oswald unconditional love. When he was younger all he really wanted was to be a boy when he grew up.

Jonathan Crane - Transgender FTM, He/They, Gay, Demromantic and Asexual.

He knew he was a boy from a very young age. Realised he didn't mind using they/them when he was a teenager and started to use both he/him and they/them. He thought he was gay early on because of his lack of interest in girls but started to question if he was aroace when he got older. They realised they were demiromantic when he grew a crush on his best friend at the time.

Harvey Dent - Cisgender, He/Him, Bisexual.

I think he has a preference for women but only slightly. Definitely uses his two-headed coin to flirt with people and it actually works more often than not. Knew he was bi from a young age.

Ecco - Cisgender, She/Her, Lesbian.

She and Jeremiah are in a queerplatonic relationship. She could get a girlfriend if she really wanted but isn't interested at the moment. The most dedicated girlfriend you could ever have. Falls hard. Had an 'oh fuck' moment in high school when she realised she was a lesbian.

Sofia Falcone - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

Strikes me as someone who isn't focused on romance or sex but could get a boyfriend or girlfriend if she put time and effort into it. I think she has a preference for women.

Lucius Fox - Cisgender, He/Him, Gay.

Acts cool but is probably a gay disaster on the inside. Tries to flirt and is semi-successful when he does. Says he's too busy with work to find a boyfriend and is slightly lonely. Doesn't try to hide his sexuality and has no problem telling people he's gay.

Victor Fries - Cisgender, He/Him, Bisexual.

Preference for men. He isn't that open about his sexuality but still acts surprised when no one knows he's bisexual. Is very casual about it. I see him as a very quiet and respectful person when showing his attraction to both men and women and just prefers keeping his feelings to himself.

Nora Fries - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

No real preference for either men or women. Would try and flirt with women but it would be seen as something platonic. She and Victor had matching pride shirts.

Tabitha Galavan - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

Preference for women. I like to think the first person she murdered was a homophobe. Could pull any man or woman she wanted and no one can convince me otherwise. She either just kills any person who is homophobic or transphobic in her presence or beats the shit out of them as Oswald does.

Butch Gilzean - Cisgender, He/Him, Straight

Raised with respect. The two most important women in his life, Fish and Tabitha, were bisexual so he is very much an ally. Type of guy to tell somebody off for making an offensive comment, verbally or physically. He, Tabitha and Barbara were in a polyamorous relationship.

Jim Gordon - Cisgender, He/Him, Bisexual.

Preference for women. Growing up he had some internalized homophobia but he overcame it as he got older. He falls for any pretty girl who ever so slightly flirts with him. I think he likes men who are either mean with a soft side or just a bit of a bastard(Harvey and Oswald). He and Harvey are both in love with each other but are just too stupid to admit it to one another.

Barbara Kean - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

Male preference. Had some internalized homophobia until she killed her parents and became free. Went to an all-girls school where she had a few girlfriends before getting in trouble for dating other women. Probably pegged Jim.

Kristen Kringle - Cisgender, She/Her, Omnisexual, Greyromantic.

Male preference. To me, she only showed sexual attraction towards her boyfriends before Ed, even then I think she and Ed would've been better off as friends. She very rarely experiences romantic attraction but when she does I think she'd be a little awkward about it. Kristen definitely pegged Ed. She and Lee would've been cute together. They're very dear to my heart.

Selina Kyle - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual, Demiromantic.

Female preference. She's had crushes on both Ivy and Bridgit. Acts like she's annoyed by her loved ones but would kill and die for them. She's protective and caring even if she denies it. Has only had romantic feelings for her friends. She has trouble admitting her romantic feelings for people. Barbara and Tabitha are her badass bi mentors.

Fish Mooney - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

No preference. Flirts with everyone. Doesn't tolerate anyone's homophobic bullshit. The biggest eyerolls. The greatest gaydar in all of Gotham city. One look at Oswald and Harvey and she knew they were both lonely little gay men. Harvey's beard.

Edward Nygma - Transgender FTM, Genderfluid, He/She/They, Bisexual.

Preference for women. The king of internalized homophobia. His whole arc in the show was him denying his bisexuality and feelings for Oswald. The Riddler is sick of Ed's compulsory heterosexuality. Hated his female body and started to transition during uni. Ed was comfortable having a male body but didn't understand why he was only sometimes comfortable being seen and referred to as a man. This led to him discovering that he was genderfluid as an adult. Never told anyone until Oswald and only become open about his gender identity after he and the Riddler became whole in s3. The worst at flirting but simultaneously the sweetest.

Alfred Pennyworth - Cisgender, He/Him, Straight

Does his best for Bruce. And I mean does. Biggest ally you'll ever meet. If anybody bullies his boy for who he is be prepared to be slapped the fuck out of. All he wants is for Bruce to be safe and happy and if Alfred has to teach somebody a lesson in respect, so be it.

Ivy Pepper - Cisgender, She/Her, Lesbian.

Disaster lesbian. Had a fat crush on Selina when she was younger, and still does though slightly less. Her feelings have pivoted more towards Bridgit. The original plant lesbian. Oswald is her disaster gay role model. Expert in the language of flowers and gives personalised bouquets to her crushes.

Bridgit Pike - Demigirl, She/They, Lesbian.

Oblivious to people's interest in her. She never really got the chance to explore any romantic interest they had with the women in her life before being burned due to her home life. She doesn't really know how to deal with romantic or sexual feelings. They never really fully felt like a girl and felt that there was something else to them. So the use of they/them and she/her pronouns felt natural to Bridgit.

Jervis Tetch - Cisgender, He/Him, Biromantic, Demisexual.

Male preference. Had a fucking heart attack when he had his first male crush. He had no idea what to do. Felt so guilty about it. He's just kinda pushed his bisexuality down. He started to accept his bisexuality as he got older and fully accepted himself by the time Alice died. I see him as someone who thinks sex is intimate and I think he'd only want to perform sexual acts with a partner who he'd found a real bond with. Thinks he is really romantic but his lack of romantic experience says otherwise.

Alice Tetch - Cisgender, She/Her, Lesbian.

I don't know why I think this, I just do. It's just the impression she gave me. She and Bridgit could've been arson girlfriends. Always knew she was gay just never got the chance to have a girlfriend.

Leslie Thompkins - Cisgender, She/Her, Pansexual.

Growing up, she didn't really understand why gender was a big deal to some people, if somebody was attractive they were attractive, why did it matter? At university, she discovered what the term pansexual meant and realised that it fit her perfectly. Has three types, dark and badass (Jim and Barbara), sweet and adorable (Kristen) or a mix of the two (Ed).

Valerie Vale - Cisgender, She/Her, Bisexual.

Male preference. Flirts with her sources all the time. She and Lee gave me some gay vibes honestly. Nothing is more romantic than teaching your boyfriend's ex how to lock pick when trying to escape from her own home and a crazy man in a tophat.

Jerome Valeska - Cisgender, He/Him, Bisexual.

Chaotic bisexual with no preference. Flirts with almost everybody. Used to bully Jeremiah for being gay (not severely just little comments) and then cried when he had his first male crush when he was little. He's perfectly happy and open with his sexuality now, he was just a homophobic little shit instead of a gay little shit when he was really small. Never been in a real romantic relationship before so he's useless when it comes to real romance.

Jeremiah Valeska - Cisgender, He/Him, Gay.

Disaster gay. Always knew he was gay. Used to watch male guests at the circus from behind the trailers. Jerome made fun of him for it until he had his gay panic and joined him. Can't flirt for shit but tries his best. Touch starved. Kinda lonely. As I've said before he and Ecco are in a queerplatonic relationship.

Bruce Wayne - Transgender FTM, He/Him, Bisexual

Preference for women. Started to transition at the start of s2. Felt wrong being in the body of a girl since he was very little. The only therapist he's been to is a gender therapist from outside of Gotham. He's just a little sweetheart. He does his best to impress his crushes. Overall, he's just doing his best to cope with his romantic feelings for people (Selina). I like the idea of Jim and Lucius being his older queer role models.

Victor Zsasz - Cisgender, He/Him, Pansexual.

He just doesn't care what somebody's gender is. If you're hot you're hot and he's going to flirt with you. Very blunt when admitting his sexual and physical attraction. Difficult to decipher if he's into you or if he wants to annoy the fuck out of you when it comes to his romantic pursuits. Breaks into his crush's houses and does shit like drink all their milk. Clingy.

-------------------------------------------------------

What do you think of my headcanons, do you agree or disagree? Let me know! :)

I apologize for any mistakes, I'm dyslexic so proofreading is difficult.

[remembertheplunge]

GLSEN meeting 1997

June 11, 1997

Good talk with Jim. Gave me a chance to integrate tonight’s GLSEN meeting. Interesting politicking. A study of the left as it studies the right. Great that Mrs O. is there. She’s vice president. She feels bullied by the religious right at Downey High. Teachers are afraid to go to GLSEN meetings. Afraid to be seen there.

Saw Jack there, along with Sam and Harry. The same guys that do Hand to Hand. Where are all the rest of the guys and gals? What do they participate in? It’s really quite a brave and gutsy movement.

I spoke out at the meeting. Left me feeling raw and raped a bit—but—it needed to be said. I have a voice, too. And experiences. They have worth, merit and value.

End of this part of the entry

Notes 7/6/2024

GLESEN  is an organization established in 1990  that “believes that every student has the right to a safe, supportive, and LBGTQ-inclusive K-12 education.

Hand to Hand was an organization that I belonged to in Sacramento in 1986-1987. We volunteered to help people with Aids through their illness and death, when I moved back to Modesto in 1987, I joined SCAP (Stanislaus County Aids Project) to do the same work. In the above entry, I use Hand to Hand" as short hand for both groups.

Jack, Sam and Harry (not their real names) were gay men and SCAP volunteers.

George Lucas attended Downey High School in Modesto. He changed its name to Dewy High in the 1973 film  American Graffiti set in 1962 Modesto, California.

Jim, at the beginning of the entry, was my new boy friend, Jim Wentzel. I had just met him for the first time on May 10,1997. We were together as gay partners until his death from liver failure in 2009.

[vampyre-lesbian]

Freddie was bi btw

i’ve been getting a lot of asks and comments saying Freddie Mercury wasn’t gay, so I'm just gonna answer this once!

it's a pretty common misconception that Freddie was bisexual; a lot of people tend to make that assumption because Freddie ""dated"" a couple of women before he met his partner Jim, but it's important to remember that just because he was ""dating"" women for a while doesn't mean he was attracted to them! it was very common during this time period for LGBTQ+ people to force themselves into more socially acceptable relationships; in addition to the homophobia that was normalized during this time, Freddie was also dealing with the added pressure of having extremely religious parents who were not accepting of his sexuality (one of Freddie’s boyfriends, David Minns, said in his book This Is The Real Life that Freddie was constantly worried about his parents finding out that he was gay and it really took a toll on his mental health).

societal pressure and internalized homophobia (combined with the pressure of fame!) forced Freddie to date a couple of women, but he was unhappy in all those relationships—he constantly cheated on Mary Austin with men, and in Rosemary Pearson’s book Life, Art, and Freddie Mercury: 1968-70, she said that Freddie used to cry during sex because he couldn’t stop thinking about men (bisexual guys don’t do that lmao).

once Freddie learned to accept his sexuality, he broke up with Mary and from then on he only dated men. in Freddie’s book, A Life In His Own Words, he’s quoted as saying “I’ve done all that but I’m gay. Mary was my last woman” and “Why, I’m as gay as a daffodil!” His close friends, bandmates, and even Mary Austin herself have all said that Freddie was gay.

tumblr user @rushingheadlong has a really good post where he breaks down all of the quotes that have been given about Freddie’s sexuality over the years! it’s really long but super helpful if you’re wanting to learn more.

@frottingwithfreddie​ also did a good job of explaining this, I think.

I hope this clears things up! I understand that bi erasure is a big problem in the community, but I also don’t think that anyone benefits from looking for biphobia where there is none. Freddie was gay, and he spent most of his life struggling to come to terms with his sexuality, so it is very important to me that this part of his identity is not erased. there are plenty of artists and musicians who are actually bisexual if you’re looking for a “bicon.”

[queen-thinky-thoughts]

Mary also told Jim Freddie was "waiting for him" right after the funeral... It just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. And she also apparently told a newspaper she couldn't let Phoebe, Joe and Jim stay at Garden Lodge because her children wouldn't have any friends at school if they were associated with them. To me she really comes off as cold, selfish and lacking a lot of empathy.

The thing about her children not having friends if gay HIV positive men had been living at her house is definitely awful, but more so because it was true, sadly. There was very much that sort of attitude toward HIV positive people at the time. On the one hand, I absolutely think a different person would have criticised the attitudes of the time instead of simply stating them and would have fought to change people's minds - like Princess Diana did - and on the other hand, I understand her concern as a parent who doesn't want their children to be ostracised. Either way, it's clear to me that Mary was never cut out to be much of an activist or really anybody who stood up to anyone. She does not have that in her. Not everybody does.

And that comment to Jim? A cruel comment to make, evidently, seeing as it must have been made in a way that upset him. A lot of what reportedly went down after Freddie's death speaks to me of a whole lot of resentment Mary had toward her position in Freddie's life and also the other people close to him. I don't doubt that she resented his lovers, but not because she was a huge homophobe, or anything like that.

(Oh sure, she had and likely has some homophobic preconceptions, I don't doubt that from the way she's sometimes spoken about Freddie's lovers, though for me there is a difference between somebody who is maliciously homophobic and literally hates gay people/thinks they shouldn't exist, and someone who is generally LGBT-friendly/neutral but has some homophobic preconceptions. Imo, Mary is the latter.)

This is just my reading on a woman I don't know much about, but I think she resented Freddie's lovers and she resented his sexuality, because he ended their relationship but wanted to keep her in his life. Equally - and this is where we come back to Mary not being someone who is good at making a stand or perhaps even standing up for her own needs - she decided to stay in his life, too. She didn't leave and distance herself as much as she likely would have needed to in order to really emotionally uncouple herself. She stayed, and I think a part of her deeply resented that she stayed, that she gave so much of her life and energy to this man she did love, but couldn't be with. Equally, because she was so much in Freddie's life, but not actually with him, I think she became quite possessive of him and her role in his life. "You may be his lover now, but I loved him first", "You may be his trusted assistant now, but he's always trusted me", "You may think you understand him, but I saw him grow into who he is today" — I think all that was there. I feel like I can see some of that bitterness radiating off her even in that Garden Lodge Christmas video, although that's reading into things quite a bit, so I don't know.

Anyway, just on an emotional level, I understand her. I get how she must have felt, even while I absolutely think she was responsible for putting herself in that situation, though she may have felt like she had no choice. (There is always a choice.)

You know, it all fascinantes me endlessly from a psychological point of view, the dynamic Freddie and Mary had. And I feel like I know fairly little about Mary, on the whole. Certainly less than I know about the members of Queen or even Jim, I feel like.

And no, she doesn't strike me as a bad person based solely on some of her bad moments, no more than I would say Freddie was a cruel person for writing 'Don't Try Suicide' when his ex attempted/threatened to kill himself, or that all of Queen were irredeemable dirtbags for cheating on their partners on tour, or Brian is a despicable, selfish man for having an affair, etc. I don't think any of that. I just see everyone as human and flawed.

And yes, sorry, I went off on a massive tangent there. Anyway, you can absolutely think what you like about Mary. If she's a horrible person in your eyes, that's fair enough. I'm not actually out to convince anyone to see anything my way, but I'm genuinely interested in the analysis of things, just for myself, when I find that I don't quite follow other people's train of thought.

Thanks for engaging respectfully, anon!

[freddie-mercury-rising]

I see commentary sometimes about Jim and Freddie where people say that Freddie would never had been with Jim if he weren’t ill, yada yada. Ok, so couda, woulda, shoulda. Would I be with my current partner if not for x, y, or z? Human relationships are complex at the best of times, let alone when two people already have the odds stacked against them: being gay in a world that all but hated gay people, being men in a domestic partnership, and one (and then both) having a fatal illness. Why are people so quick to demean what they had in order to assume it was a relationship of convenience. No one but they know how it felt to be in that relationship. They both got things out of that partnership. And no one on Earth can say what those things were, except the two of them. And we know already, from multiple sources, that they were head over heels for one another. Perhaps it would not have lasted at another time in their lives, but see...that’s the beauty of it. When two people meet at just the right time in their lives, they can create a special bond. Those same two people meeting ten years earlier may not have even given each other a second glance. A lot of the people who say nasty, baseless things about Jim and Freddie are not only homophobic first and foremost, but also lacking the complex fundamental understanding of human relationships. 

Anyway... that came out of nowhere. Resume normal activity. LOL

[woman-loving]

Brenda Howard: Mother of Pride?

A lot of mythology has sprung up around the Stonewall Riots and the annual Pride celebrations that commemorate them. This mythology often serves a community function: by lifting up a particular narrative of events, and emphasizing certain actors, communities create a history that provides legitimacy for their current identity, values, and goals.

As well-intentioned as these mythologies may be, they aren't always historically accurate, and may end up obscuring more complex realities and the contributions of other actors.

One myth I'd like to examine is that bisexual activist Brenda Howard created the first Pride parade.

You can see this claim repeated in various forms in online LGBTQ magazines such as The Advocate, Curve, LGBTQ Nation, Pride, and Instinct, as well as places like the History Channel site, CNN (8th slide), Bi Pride UK, LGBT History Month, and various other blogs and sites. The 25th anniversary edition of Bi Any Other Name: Bisexual People Speak Out also includes this (poorly-edited) footnote on bisexual activist history:

Bisexual activist Brenda Howard (1946-2005) conceives and co-coordinates a one-month Stonewall Rebellion rally, and a one year anniversary march and celebration. This became the annual NYC Pride March that, in turn spawned Pride Marches around the country and the world.

Much of what's been written about Brenda Howard's contribution to Pride is misleading. While it seems that she was on the Christopher Street Liberation Day Committee as a representative from the Gay Liberation Front, she was not the primary organizer of the event, nor did she come up with the idea for it. Describing Pride as "conceive[d]," "organized," "planned," or "invented" by Howard suggests that she played a much more prominent role than she did. And when Howard is the only person whose involvement in Pride is highlighted, it results in a distorted narrative where other, more principal organizers are erased.  

Brenda Howard has likely received the spotlight due to her representational value to the bisexual community. The presence of bi people at Pride--and even within LGBTQ communities--has often been challenged, and what better rejoinder is there than to say that it was a bi woman who started it all? (A bi woman who later partnered with a man, no less.) The narrative of Brenda Howard as creator of Pride therefore works to justify bi people's place in "queer" communities and history and counter the misconception that bi people are merely apolitical spectators to community activism.

It makes sense that bi people and their allies would spread around such histories. However, the justification for bi people's belonging doesn't rest on this one figure or the role she played in Pride. Brenda Howard is an example of a bi participant in general "gay" activism (as well as specifically bi activism), and her role in Pride doesn't need to be inflated to find value in her legacy.

----

Now I'll turn to look more closely at the claims made about her role in Pride, and the evidence for them.

First of all, I must mention that I'm not an expert on Stonewall or its legacy. I haven't done an exhaustive search on all the sources that document the origins of Pride, so it's possible that I've overlooked some evidence. If anyone has any other sources that would illuminate her role in Pride, I'd be happy to consider them.

As far as I can tell, most of the online information about Howard's connection to Pride can be traced to an obituary written by her partner, Larry Nelson, after her death in 2005. Part of the obit is quoted in these memorial articles:

A militant activist who helped plan and participated in LGBT rights actions for more than three decades. Ms. Howard was a major player in starting the annual Pride celebrations that take place every year around the world. She coordinated the 1-month anniversary rally and the 1-year rally/march commemorating the Stonewall Rebellion, which became the annual New York City Pride March. Howard also originated the idea for a week-long series of events around Pride Day, called Pride Week. Most U.S. states and many countries and cities around the world now celebrate Pride Day/Week annually, descended directly from those first marches and rallies in New York City which Howard coordinated and created.

As you can see, several of the other articles take language directly from this obit, which appears to be their source of information. (The Bi Any Other Name footnote also uses similar language.) The only additional details come from the Lolita article, which describes Howard as "one of the organizers of the first Christopher Street Liberation Day march in 1970." Considering that this author includes the correct name for the first march in New York, I'm inclined to believe that her knowledge (or research) extends beyond Nelson's obituary. I think it's notable that she describes Howard as merely "one of the organizers," in contrast to Nelson, who doesn't qualify her leadership in any way.

Another article called "A Long History of Activism" was posted to Gay City News a few weeks after her death. This article draws quotes from a number of people who worked with Howard, and provides more details about her activism and community involvement. Other than mentioning that she was "there at Stonewall," it has nothing to say about her role in organizing the Liberation Day march. This would seem to contradict the claim that Howard was known as the Mother of Pride. The origin of this moniker may be the title of the Bilerico article from the previous set: "Pride founding mother, Brenda Howard's, memorial service announced." None of these articles call her the Mother of Pride.

The one pre-2005 source I've found that connects Howard to the Christopher Street Liberation Day march is the book Stonewall by Martin Duberman (1994). But before I turn to that, let's see what else we can find about the one-month anniversary rally at Washington Square Park and the 1970 Liberation Day march.

I happen to have a book about post-Stonewall activism called Out for Good: The Struggle to Build a Gay Rights Movement in America by Dudley Clendinen and Adam Nagourney (1999). I checked the index for Brenda Howard, but her name wasn't listed. However, it does discuss the two events Nelson credits to Howard. I'm going to outline and quote some of it to give you a better sense of what happened leading up to them.

According to the authors, in the weeks following the Stonewall riots on June 27 1969, the New York Mattachine Society began distributing leaflets proclaiming that their organization “stands ready to arrange a meeting” with public officials. A man named Michael Brown saw one of the leaflets and went to the MS office, calling for a more “aggressive response.” The executive director of the MS, Dick Leitsch, “put Brown in charge of a new Mattachine Action Committee, and called for a public forum on July 9 at the Freedom House, where the Mattachine Society held its monthly meetings.” (Out for Good, p 26)

The people who met at the forum were “younger, more radical, new to the world of homophile politics,” and included Marty Robinson, Jim Owles, Lois Hart, and Martha Shelley (p 26). Martha Shelley was a member of the New York chapter of Daughters of Bilitis, and is credited with proposing the idea of a rally:

Leitsch wanted to work quietly within the system, and he argued against the creation of any new groups that would, he said, divide the limited energies of the movement. But shortly after he called this meeting to order, Martha Shelley rose and proposed a different idea: a march and rally at Washington Square Park to protest police harassment. Leitsch wearily asked if anyonetruly through this made sense. Hands shot up across the room, so Leitsch unhappily suggested that anyone who wanted to organize the march move to acorner of the room. (p 27)

Martha Shelley’s own account corroborates this:

Shelley remembered, “As soon as I found out that gays were rioting against the police, I called Joan Kent, who was running our local DOB chapter, and said, ‘We need to have a protest march.’ She said that if the Mattachine Society agreed, the two organizations could co-sponsor it. So I called Dick Leitch, the head of NY Mattachine, and he said to come to a meeting at Town Hall and propose the march idea to the membership.

[…] Town Hall held 400 people, and it was jam-packed with 398 men, one female member of Mattachine, and me. When I proposed the march, Dick asked how many were in favor. Everyone’s hand went up. So he said, 'Whoever wants to organize it, go to that corner after the meeting.’ A few of us formed a march committee. We subsequently met at the Mattachine Society office to work out the details.

The rally occurred on July 27 1969 at Washington Square Park, one month after the Stonewall riots. My book describes Shelley addressing the crowd of 500 from the rim of a fountain:

“Shelley had taken responsibility for obtaining whatever permits were needed to rally at Washington Square Park and march the four blocks to the Stonewall Inn. It turned out the only permit needed was for a sound system. And Shelley[…] decided she would rather yell than ask for a permit from the New York City Police Department. So there she was in the middle of the Washington Square Park–all five feet four inches of her, as fierce as ever–bellowing at the top of her lungs, a little taken aback by how many men and women had turned up (mostly men), many wearing the lavender armbands she and Marty Robinson had handed out that morning.” (p 28)

She and Marty Robinson are described as “the principle speakers” at the rally (p 29).

Shortly thereafter, Shelley would be among the founding members of the Gay Liberation Front. She is even credited with coming up with the name--or at least proposing to use "gay" (p 31). She and Jim Fouratt were "probably the most forceful" personalities "responsible for setting [the group’s] tone as much as its ideology" (p 41). The Gay Activists Alliance would split off from this group by the end of 1969 (p 46-47).

Considering that Brenda Howard was also a member of GLF--and that some of the early members were rally coordinators--I don't think it's a stretch to believe that Howard was involved with planning the rally. However, it doesn't sound like it was her idea or that she was the primary organizer.

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However, crediting her with "coordinating" the 1970 Christopher Street Liberation Day march is an even bigger claim. Everything I’ve read points to Craig Rodwell being the primary coordinator. I'll start drawing on some other sources here, too, especially "Movements and Memory: The Making of the Stonewall Myth," by Elizabeth A. Armstrong and Suzanna M. Crage (2006).

Before the Stonewall Riots, Rodwell already had a history of gay/homophile activism. He created Mattachine Young Adults in 1964 and the Homophile Youth Movement in Neighborhoods, and was a member of East Coast Homophile Organizations. He opened the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop in Greenwich Village in 1967, which served as an informal community center (Craig Rodwell Papers, p 3). For five years he participated in the Annual Reminder pickets, which were first organized by Frank Kameny in 1964 to bring attention to the lack of civil protections for gays and lesbians. Apparently, Rodwell was the one who suggested making this an annual event. ("Movements," p 736.)

Some months after Stonewall, an Eastern Regional Conference of Homophile Organizations took place on November1-2, 1969. A resolution was introduced "by Craig Rodwell, representing the Homophile Youth Movement, and Ellen Broidy of NYU’s Student Homophile League" (Nation Historic Landmark Nomination: Stonewall, p 19). It proposed changing the Annual Reminder into an annual Christopher Street Liberation Day:

RESOLUTION #1: that the Annual Reminder, in order to be more relevant, reach a greater number of people, and encompass the ideas and ideals of the larger struggle in which we are engaged—that of our fundamental human rights—be moved both in time and location.

We propose that a demonstration be held annually on the last Saturday in June in New York City to commemorate the 1969 spontaneous demonstrations on Christopher Street and this demonstration becalled CHRISTOPHER STREET LIBERATION DAY. No dress or age regulations shall be made for this demonstration.

We also propose that we contact Homophile organizations throughout the country and suggest that they hold parallel demonstrations on that day. We propose a nationwide show of support. (“Movements,” p 738)

The authors of "Movements" say that Rodwall had friends from NYU’s Student Homophile League introduce the resolution, so it might have just been introduced by Ellen Broidy. Frank Sargeant, who was Rodwell’s partner at the time, says that "two women, Ellen Broidy and Linda Rhodes, were instrumental in getting a resolution for that first march passed"(1970: A First-Person Account of the First Gay Pride March). Another resolution was passed to form the Christopher Street Liberation Day Umbrella Committee (“Movements,” p 738).

So what role did Brenda Howard play in coordinating the march? Returning to Duberman's Stonewall, she was apparently one of the GLF "mainstays" on the coordinating committee:

The first thing Craig did, after the final ERCHO convention in November 1969 gave its blessing to the formation of a Christopher Street Liberation Day Committee, was to diplomatically send out notices to all of ERCHO’s constituent groups that such a committee had indeed come into existence. The niceties performed, Craig then had to find people to do the actual work. He began by notifying all the New York gay groups of the committee’s formation and–making clear (more niceties) that the planned celebration was not owned by any one organization–asked that they send representatives.

GAA delayed until some six weeks before the celebration, and Mattachine was overtly negative until the last minute, when DOB also decided to join in. But GLF responded immediately, and from that group Brenda Howard, Marty Nixon, and Michael Brown became mainstays. To fill out the committee, Craig buttonholed some of his regular customers at the Oscar Wilde Bookshop, and managed to bag Judy Miller, recently arrived in New York from Denver, and a pair of lovers, Jack Waluska and Steve Gerrie. All three turned out to be hardworkers, and stayed the course. (Stonewall, p 270)

The also book notes that "the small group of eight or so people began to meet monthly in Craig’s apartment on Bleecker Street[…]” (p 271).

However, as I was doing some additional research for this post yesterday, I found a comment responding to a Brenda Howard article that appears to be from Frank Sargeant, although I see no way to verify it:

We should talk. I was one of the four people that proposed the march at the Nov 69 meeting of the Eastern Regional Conference of Homophile Organizations. Brenda Howard was not there. ERCHO created the Christopher Street Liberation Day Umbrella Committee to organize the march. I served on the finance committee of the CSLDUC and at the head of the march. Brenda Howard was liason or representative from GLF that attended one meeting at my apartment. Once.

I don’t know what sources you’re relying on but if it’s the family website created after she died in 2005, it not a reliable source.

Brenda Howard was very peripherally involved the march and had no role in the organizing committee. Her group, GLF, did not have anything remotely like the myths suggest in organizing march any more than any of the many other groups whose names are now forgotten but that I’d be happy to tell you about.

This would again confirm that she did have some invovlement, but it seems to contradict Duberman's characterization of her as a "mainstay." In contrast, Duberman writes that "Foster [Gunnison] fully credited Craig with being the heartbeat of the committee: He was "like a guru," Foster later said, "everything revolved around him[…]" (p 271).

In any case, the march took place on June 28, 1970. It "covered fifty-one blocks, from Washington Square Park to Central Park," and ended with a "gay-in" at Sheep Meadow (Out for Good, p 63). There "were no floats or platform displays, at the insistence of Rodwell, who feared they would distract from the political significance of the day” (p 63). Several thousand people participated in the march and gay-in. Jean DeVente, also known as "Mama Jean," headed the march (p 63).

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In the obituary, Nelson also credits Howard with "[originating] the idea for a week-long series of events around Pride Day, called Pride Week."

"Gay Pride Week" is related to, but not interchangeable with, the Christopher Street Liberation Day march (or Pride parades more generally). The march was the central event, which had already been proposed as an annual commemoration by the time Brenda Howard apparently joined the coordinating committee. While it's possible that Howard may have first floated the idea of a week-long series of events surrounding the march, or even have had a larger role in planning these events, that needs to be understood in its larger context. We shouldn't credit her with creating "Pride parades" or "Pride" in general if she just proposed expanding on already planned events.

I haven’t had much luck finding information about the 1970 Gay Pride Week in New York, so I can't say exactly what role Howard played in it. All I’ve gathered so far is that:

It was sponsored by the Christopher Street Liberation Committee. (National Historic Landmark Nomination: Stonewall, p 19)

"To accommodate the interests of the many different groups participating, the Christopher Street Liberation Day Committee named the days leading up to the march "Gay Pride Week,” when individual organizations could host their own events and activities." (Out History exhibit)

"Lesbian activities organized by Women of Lesbian Liberation were centered at [the new Lesbian Center at] the Church of the Holy Apostle, where they held a discussion with WL women and Daughters of Bilitis on the connection between feminism and lesbian liberation. Communal suppers and all-woman dances were held." (here, see more discussion here)

It "suffered some glitches–some poorly attended events and a double-booking with the pro-Castro Venceremos Brigade[…]" (“Movements,” p 741). It was also criticized as "not very well organized" in Iowa City’s women’s lib newspaper Ain’t I a Woman?

The events included "workshops, dances, art shows, conferences, and a culminating 'mass march'..." (Nation Historic Landmark Nomination: Stonewall, p 20; footnote 52: “A Week of Gay Pride,” Village Voice June 25, 1970.)

Given that this is one of the more specific claims in the obituary, and that there's no evidence to directly contradict it, it's perfectly possible that Howard did come up with the idea of "Pride Week." On the other hand, considering Nelson's track record here, I feel like I ought to take his account with a grain of salt.

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Another piece of online trivia about Brenda Howard appears to originate from the webpage "Pride (trope), Homolexis," for which I’ve only found broken links. This information on Howard’s wikipedia page is sourced to it:

Additionally, Howard along with the bisexual activist Robert A. Martin (aka Donny the Punk) and gay activist L. Craig Schoonmaker are credited with popularizing the word "Pride" to describe these festivities.

I’ve not found anything else about Howard’s role in this, which doesn’t make it false. For his part, Craig Schoonmaker does take credit for this:

My name is Craig Schoonmaker, and in 1970 I authored the word ‘pride’ for gay pride. Somebody had to come up with it!

We had a committee to commemorate the Stonewall riots. We were going to create a number of events the same weekend as the march to bring in people out of town, and wanted to unite the events under a label. First thought was ‘Gay Power’. I didn’t like that, so proposed gay pride.

There’s very little chance for people in the world to have power, but anyone can have pride.

As for Stephen Donaldson (Robert A. Martin), as far as I'm aware, he wasn’t involved with the Christopher Street Liberation Day Committee at all. It seems he was mainly involved in the Student Homophile League at Columbia. In fact, he says that "late in the spring of 1970 I dropped out of the gay movement, for a number of reasons, one of them the increased hostility from within the movement to my own bisexuality.[…]" (In 1977 he returned to Columbia--and to the SHL, which was then “Gay People at Columbia-Bernard.” You can read his own account of the creation of the SHL and some of their activities. [cw for rape and homophobic violence on p 258/30, second paragraph under “Background”])

Whoever came up with it, it seemed to catch on pretty quickly.

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Although I'm challenging the narrative of her responsibility for Pride, I don't mean to downplay Brenda Howard's activism or community involvement, which appears to have been extensive. Here are some other things she did (info taken from the memorial articles, and other sources):

Involved in the anti-war movement

Member of the Gay Liberation Front

Member of the Gay Activists Alliance and longtime chairperson of the Agitprop (Agitation-Propaganda) Committee, GAA’s speakers committee (source; also source: Howard is mentioned on p. 19 and you can read about the speakers committee on p. 16)

Active in the Coalition for Lesbian and Gay Rights (an umbrella group co-founded by GAA to rally support for the New York gay rights bill, which would pass in 1986)

Worked at a phone sex service starting in 1985

Co-chair of the S/M-Leather Contingent for the 1987 March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights (I found a notice she wrote about it in a National Leather Association newsletter p 3; link's broken now)

Ran the New York Area Bisexual Network’s Info Line (and possibly was one of NYABN’s founders in 1987?)

Involved in BiPAC ("Bisexual Political Action Committee," of the NYABN)

Worked with the Queens’ chapter of the Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (they now give out an annual Brenda Howard Memorial Award)

Ran "the nation’s first Alcoholics Anonymous chapter for bisexuals" and also ran a bi S/M group

Active in the (successful) campaign to change the 1993 March on Washington name to "The 1993 March on Washington for Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Rights" (source: p. 2 mentions that she gathered signatures in New York, and p. 5 says that she was one of seven out bisexuals at the Bisexual Caucus at the National Steering Committee, where the change was voted on)

A coordinator in BiNet USA

Worked on organizing the "Stonewall 25" or “Spirit of Stonewall March” in 1994, which celebrated the 25th anniversary of Stonewall

A member of ACT-UP New York (she was jailed following a “protest of the firing of a lesbian from the state attorney general's office" which occured in 1997)

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While that's all I have to say about Brenda Howard, I wanted to include a bit more information on the first Stonewall commemorative events for those who are interested. The Christopher Street Liberation Day march and Gay Pride Week in New York weren’t the only ones that took place in 1970. The New York committee reached out to other organizations to participate, and events occurred in three other cities.

Chicago activists also celebrated a Gay Pride Week ending with a rally and a 150-person march on June 27, a day before the others (“Encyclopediaof Lesbian and Gay Histories and Cultures,” p 871). Moderate activists in San Francisco declined to get involved, but a few more radical activists organized a small gay-in, and there was apparently an unrelated march as well (“Movements,” p 741).

Los Angeles activists also organized a parade under the name "Christopher Street West." They had trouble obtaining a permit from the Chief of Police, and had to get a court order for him to issue it (“Movements,” p 741). In contrast to the New York march, this event may be more properly described as a "parade":

With the permits in hand, Morris Kight and Troy Perry led their march through West Hollywood. By their count, 1,163 people showed up at McCadden Place at 6 p.m. on June 28 to mark the anniversary of Stonewall. There was a sound truck blasting martial music, a GLF float featuring a homosexual nailed to a black-and-white cross with a sign reading “In Memory of Those Killed by the Pigs,” a GLF guerrilla theater skit with “fairies” dressed with wings being chased by vice cops with night sticks and even an Orange County contingent hoisting a banner that said, “Homosexuals for Ronald Regan.” (Outfor Good, p. 64)

Pat Rocco was another organizer for the 1970 Christopher Street West parade. He takes credit for creating the first Pride "festival" following the parade in 1974. (Although I know Toronto’s 1972 Gay Pride Week had a “Festival of Gay Culture” at the homophile center to kick off the week, which included “carnival events.”)

There’s a video of Rocco talking about it, and I typed up a partial transcript [starting around 1:25]:

So what happened is that they had a big--a whole bunch of the people together in Hollywood--got together and elected me the very first president of a Gay Pride organization. […] And I said, ok we got to do two important things at the very beginning. One, we’ve got to get our 501c3. […]

And I said the second thing is: we got to stop stopping everything that happens at the end of the parade. The parade ends and everyone just goes their way. I said I’d like to have something where everybody in Hollywood gets together at the end of the parade. I said let’s have a festival, and let’s have the parade end at the festival. And let’s just make it that way.

And they said no way! You want us to be there in the middle of people? It’s one thing being on Hollywood Boulevard, and then you’re off and nobody sees you anymore. But another thing is being some place for three days--I wanted a three-day festival--and we show ourselves and everybody knows--I said yes, what everybody knows is that you don’t have horns. You’re not strange, you’re not unusual. […] I said just do it, and I think you’ll be surprised.

They finally gave in. We had a three-day festival. I had seven carnival rides. I had 24 booths. I had a big lot on Sunset Boulevard, one block from the end of the parade. And the place went crazy. The place was packed every day. And at the end of the parade, everyone on Hollywood Blvd has to go to the festival. They all ended up there.

So it was an idea that not only caught fire, but people were calling: what is that guy Rocco doing in Los Angeles, in Hollywood? San Francisco was calling and they said well we’re gonna do it next year. And I said fine. Since then there have been parades and festivals combined together all over the world. And I’m the proud papa. And I’m so proud to be.

I don't bring this up to turn the spotlight to Paul Rocco and say, "oh, he's the real inventor of Pride as we know it," and I don't have any other information to confirm or deny his account. Rather, I include this as an illustration of how Pride continued to develop even after the first year, and how multiple people may have had a hand in shaping what it looks like today and what it's looked like in different cities.

Well, I hope this has been an interesting history lesson, or at least a cautionary tale about how easily poorly-sourced information can spread online and beyond. Had you heard this myth before?

[a-froger-epic]

You said Freddie "was in love with an idea of Mary". I don't understand this and some other people's opinion on this. They were in a relationship. They broke up, because Freddie was gay and couldn't have romantic relationship with her. They stayed friends, which isn't unsual (see Joe). He couldn't love her as a friend? Only "the idea of her"? She didn't deserve to be loved? Why is it wrong to ask Phoebe about her? Why the fandom tries to forget she ever existed? She's known Freddie for 22 years.

Alright, I will elaborate then since I think you've misunderstood what I said there, and that is fair enough because I didn't explain.

I'm really not keen on getting into any discussions about Mary, to be honest, which is why I said none of this is a hill I'd like to die on. I'm not interested in defending how Mary acted after his death, there's a lot of valid criticism and it's true that their relationship is and was often misrepresented in a way that is disrespectful to Jim and the very fact that Freddie was a self-identified gay man. So I understand the frustration with that. But anyway, here are my thoughts on Mary and Freddie and their actual relationship with each other.

Let's start at the beginning. Although none of us can really know what their relationship was like, I personally think it's clear that they clicked very well in the beginning, on some level.

Let me just pre-empt this again by saying that pretty much all of this is speculation and my personal opinion, I'm not trying to tell anyone they're wrong. This is just my take. Don't come for me. Let me have my opinion, please and thank you.

I think they fit well in the way that, knowing Mary's background (deaf parents, started working full-time at 15), she was very used to being in a caretaker role and Freddie liked, in many ways, to be taken care of. I think she was also somebody who was not very outspoken with her emotions, not very emotional overall, and I think that actually perhaps suited Freddie quite well. Because I think that her keeping her feelings close to her chest gave him the excuse to do the exact same. Why do I think so?

Having read Rosemary's book, it's apparent that she is a very emotional person and what ended up happening, is that Freddie opened up to her in ways he never did with Mary. He never, until their break up, let on to Mary that he wanted to be with men. Freddie and Rosemary, by contrast, were only together for a year or so and he could not stop talking about it. Rosemary was open, so Freddie was open. I think Freddie was a bit of a chameleon when it came to relationships, which stemmed from his deep desire to be loved and accepted. He wanted to please, he wanted to be a good fit for his partners. I think that was sometimes detrimental for him because he would push himself to be somebody he wasn't. I think incidentally with Mary it sort of worked out quite well for quite a long time. I think that while they did have feelings for each other, there was also a lot of unspoken things, an emotional distance, and I think that made it easier for Freddie to be in the closet as long as he was. Again, having to grow up so fast, I think Mary was someone who learned to swallow things down and not address them and just function. In a way, Freddie had a very similar approach.

Now, let's talk about love and what I meant by him being in love with the idea of her. I believe that Freddie definitely believed and felt that he was in love with her for much of the time they were together, in part because I think he really, really wanted to be. Here was this girl who was in many ways perfect for him, the kind of girl his parents were thrilled about. Also, quite importantly, somebody who believed in him and did support him. I remember seeing one interview with her where she says her first impression was that he was this charismatic, long-haired musician and seemed so confident. Not at all like the person underneath, I think she goes on to say. But it did give me the impression that being as young as she was at the time, there was definitely a sort of wide-eyed admiration of his huge personality there from her side. And I think that stroked his ego a lot. I'm sure that later on in their relationship, she did become somewhat disenchanted with him and most likely even frustrated with him much of the time, but again, being someone who keeps themselves to themselves, I think she put on a brave face and funnily enough he did the exact same thing.

It think that towards the end of their relationship, they functioned as partners, rather than a romantic couple. I think Freddie clung on for a very long time - if not forever - to some ideal of what his life should/could/might have been if only he hadn't been gay (internalised homophobia galore), and that is also what I mean by being in love with the idea of Mary. The idea of the beautiful fantasy relationship with a woman he was never able to live up to, and I think a lot of guilt stemmed from that, for him. That he should have been able to give her that, but he couldn't. That he had failed her. That, therefore, he had to provide for her as long as he lived. Because if he hadn't been gay, he could have married her and everything would have been brilliant - which, you can't tell me, that his parents did not likely think exactly that. I will eat a hat if his mother did not once bemoan that he hadn't or wouldn't marry her. Again, I repeat, this is some deeply ingrained internalised homophobia I'm talking about, I'd be hesitant to say that Freddie was even aware of it.

Now, here's the thing. Freddie was someone who could not be alone, we know this, and he was someone who could not let go of people easily. He stayed friends, if he could, with many of his exes. And I think he was terrified of the thought of losing Mary - who he was used to, who he relied on, who he felt deeply guilty towards because he wasn't the man she deserved - when their relationship ended. Basically, he wanted the to have the cake and eat it, too. And he got that, in a way. He did get to keep her in his life, she agreed to that, and I don't think that was at all times particularly healthy for either of them.

I think Mary resented that Freddie was gay. Again, I don't even think it was a very conscious thing, but I think she absolutely believed that if only he hadn't been gay, they would have been perfect for each other. I don't think she ever stopped feeling like he was the one that got away. I think this led to her deeply resenting a lot of his circle and his lifestyle, resenting having to be involved in it, which I think is a large part of why she burned all bridges when he died. I think she felt free from an obligation that she herself had put on herself. I think the woman could have done with some therapy, tbh, I think they all could have. Anyway.

When I read what Phoebe said in that interview, what jumped out at me was that this was an important dinner with Freddie's parents. I think Freddie took solace in the idea that he could bring Mary out to dinner with them and it was almost as if it was real. That they had the son they wanted, in the way that he knew they didn't. I'm tearing up writing this right now because it's really heartbreaking to me.

But that is what I meant by the idea of her. I think, also, Freddie was generally very romantic. I think he was a bit in love with love, overall. And I think he held that fantasy somewhere in his mind forever, of what could have been, if only. And I think Mary did the same.

Of course it isn't romantic. It's terrible, it's sad, there's so many things wrong with it. But that's what I think their relationship with each other was. I think it always carried an echo of his perceived failure to have been the man she thought he could have been, he thought he could have been, if only he hadn't been gay.

Tl; dr - I'm not interested in erasing Mary from Freddie's life, any more than I'm interested in erasing anyone else who was important to him from his life. I do think he had a lot of love for her, and she for him. I don't think acknowledging that takes away from his love for his husband or makes him any less gay.