#Moses Finley

[jeannereames]

Hello Dr Reames! Do you have recommendations for books about historiography? I really need to understand what it is and how it works

So, the intro book I use in my own undergrad methodology class is this one:

Gaddis, J. L. (2002) The Landscape of History: How Historians Map the Past. Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press.

He's not an ancient historian, but that doesn't really matter, except that some of the issues unique to ancient history won't be addressed. Still, it's a very good introduction for a reasonable price. You can almost certainly find one used. For something specific to the ancient world, see below.

I have one caveat, and it's kinda a big one. He doesn't much like the social sciences, and repeatedly questions their validity. That bothers me, and I wonder why he's so negative about them? Perhaps he's run into one-too-many historians overusing (or flat misusing) social science tools like a shiny new toy. ;-)

But social science tools are perfectly fine, as long as properly employed. He does point out some of the (very real) issues with them when applied to history...but they're hardly the kiss of death.

For ancient history SPECIFICALLY, I recommend Stan Burstein's recent book on the topic:

Burstein, S.M. (2022) The Essential Greek Historians. Hackett (for Cambridge).

I particularly like it because he doesn't limit himself to "the usual suspects" (Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Polybius). They're there, but he moves on and addresses Greek writers well into Roman Imperial times, and uses a variety of sources, including some epigraphic (The Parian Marble, for instance).

This keeps his book from falling into the same problems as Finley's famous The Portable Greek Historians, which did stick to the Usual Suspects (see above). And it's shorter, too!

So there ya go, one "general" book on historiography, and one aimed specifically at ancient history by a towering scholar in the field (and a very nice guy, btw, who's even shorter than me!).

[breitzbachbea]

It is so evil when a piece of writing makes you feel like it disrespects your time.

[gallopinggallifreyans]

I would love to hear your opinions about ancient currency! And any recommendations you have for learning more about the Roman economy!

oh boy i am SO glad you asked! I'm going to put everything under a readmore because it's a Lot.

I have a few opinions on Greek coinage, specifically that of the introduction of coinage to Athens, though I'm working on a proposal for studying Spartan coinage rn.

Current publications re:Athens haven't really determined For Sure who introduced coins; it's a toss-up between Solon and Pisistratus but I'm in the Pisistratus camp for reasons that I can absolutely summarize in a separate post, as I've written and published a paper in my undergrad journal that (hopefully) holds weight in the current hodgepodge of thoughts. If you'd like that, I can write it up and link it here!

Re:Spartan coinage, I think the Spartan homoioi were real idiots. Most city-states were using silver (and very occasionally gold) for their coins, but Spartan homoioi were using iron spits. The spits (obeloi) were six to a drachma, which was the exchange rate for a long time. And by long time I mean there was no such thing as a floating conversion, coins were just the most portable form of precious metal, which was intrinsically valued. Outside Sparta (even the perioikoi) most city-states would have used ingots pre-coinage and that evolved into stamped metal, i.e. coinage. The Spartans considered themselves to be very religious and followed the Great Rhetra (unsure if Lykourgos existed), which maintained that silver and gold were holy and could not be used, so they used iron.

Unfortunately, the rest of Greece didn't follow that, and used silver in their coins, especially influenced by Attic-Ionian city-states who were in regular trade with Persia and further east, i.e. regions that valued precious metal outside their religious significance. Essentially, Spartans kinda screwed themselves over re:trade outside Sparta; they couldn't even trade in contemporary currency with the rest of Lakonia and forced their subject city-states into the same position. This is supported mostly by the explosion of Messenian and other Lakonian coinages after Sparta collapsed, though I want to see if I can find more text evidence, since I (an archaeologist) tend to rely too heavily on material. It's a whole thing, personally I believe this was a significant factor in Sparta's collapse, though other things factored in as well. Sparta was incredibly insular both in its trade/economy and religious practice and that combination led to its downfall.

For the Roman sources, I recommend starting with the Cambridge Companion to the Roman Economy by Walter Scheidel, and The Ancient Economy by Walter Scheidel and Sitta von Reden. Von Reden has excellent articles related to the ancient economy in general, and most are available on JSTOR, so I recommend giving her stuff a look.

I also highly recommend reading Moses Finley's work The Ancient Economy (no relation to Scheidel and Von Reden's work), as it lays the foundation for much of our current school of thought. Peter Temin's subsequent work, The Roman Market Economy argues against Finley and kicks off a whole debate about how to define an economy without using capitalism as the basis, because capitalism as we know and define it did not exist then, and it is incorrect to assume that. We can call it protocapitalist, but not capitalist.

Slavery in Rome is a nuanced subject that is integral to learning about its economy — I suggest keeping an open mind and treading carefully with respect to post-1492 slave trades. Noel Lenski's chapter "Framing the Question" (linked; you need access through your institution) discusses the slave trade against a Finleyan model, while Scheidel (him again) talks about how to determine the wages of slaves (JSTOR link). W. V. Harris talks about the demography and geography of slaves here (JSTOR link). These three are good starts for learning about Roman slavery, but if you want more sources, I can pull some up for you.

I don't want to overload you with sources, so in general I'll recommend anything by Scheidel, Von Reden, Nicholas Purcell and Peregrine Horden (connectivity), Seth Bernard (coins and emissions), Astrid Van Oyen (tech innovation), and Willem Jongman (economic structure). As with the slavery sources, if you want direct links I can definitely find them for you! I'm always happy to share info :)

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Do you think that there were chances to rebel against slavery in Slavers Bay?

Not only do I know there were, but the slaving societies that GRRM has written are so overinflated they should’ve been history long before Dány’s war.

The societies of Slaver’s Bay (and the Free Cities) are without a doubt slaving societies. A “slaving society” as described by influential historian Moses I Finley, is different from a “society with slaves” (which were most of ancient societies) where slavery was a small aspect of social/economic life; a slaving society had at least 20% slaves, there’s enough of them to create a cultural impact, and they’re an essential part of the economy. In Finley’s model, there are only 5 slaving societies in (Western) history: Greece, Rome, colonial US South, Caribbean, and Brazil. GRRM makes it clear that without slavery, Slaver’s Bay would collapse economically (as would the Free Cities further west). He provides comically high numbers of slaves in some of the Free Cities (slave to free are 3:1 in Lys, Myr, Tyrosh; and 5:1 in Volantis), but we hear of only a few slave rebellions in them (when the Doom of Valyria happened and they killed all the dragons surviving except the Targs’) until Dány, but why? In slaving societies, the threat of violence for rebelling was institutional and severe…but every one of those 5 had multiple examples of slave uprisings. And in some cases where the slaves outnumbered the elites by that level of magnitude, they were successful. The helots of Messenia took advantage of an earthquake and Thebes’ invasion of Sparta to revolt and eventually rebuild their old city, while the enslaved people of Haiti took advantage of the French Revolution/Napoleonic Wars to win their independence. It stands to reason as a hub of slavery that Slaver’s Bay has an enslaved population close to that of the Free Cities, but there’s never any uprising mentioned until Dány comes? Even though we know that natural disasters and institutional warfare took place in that area. And don’t tell me the magical Unsullied just prevented all rebellions forever; the Spartans were allegedly the best warriors in Ancient Greece, whole kingdoms couldn’t win against Roman consular armies, the French army defeated practically most of Europe during the Revolutionary/Napoleonic period…but there were slave rebellions that managed to beat all of them, even if temporarily (poor Spartacus). But we’re just supposed to assume that after the fall of Valyria—which TWOIAF did tell us coincided with slave rebellions against the dragonlords—absolutely none of these cities achieved any sort of lasting freedom for its enslaved people? Even when the source of the Valyrian might, the dragons, was gone and the elite could no longer rely on that violence to keep the population in line? They were all just suffering and waiting for a savior for centuries, despite being most of the city’s population (including much of the army) and there being only some backup for the elite? The USA had to outlaw educating enslaved people for fear of rebellion, but there were still uprisings; meanwhile, in Essos there’s no ban on education, but we hear of none in Slaver’s Bay? It’s absolute nonsense historically, and only serves to make the slavers look super evil and Dány to look more like an apparent hero; the byproduct is that the enslaved people are robbed of the spirit, agency, and solidarity that they had in real life.

[dionysus-complex]

learned today that renowned classical scholar Moses Finley was fired from Rutgers and had to leave the US after being investigated for communist sympathies by the House Un-American Activities Committee in the 1950s, and that he married his wife Mary in 1932 at the age of 20 years old and was married to her for 54 years before the two passed away exactly one day apart in 1986

[wagahai-da]

reading moses finley's book ancient slavery and modern ideology and while some of his analysis is lacking, or certainly outdated, it is SO nice to read him basically just being like "hey all these other scholars are being SO defensive about slavery in the ancient world, papering over or ignoring all the evidence about how BRUTAL AND OPPRESSIVE it was"

[absolute-immunities]

trying to imagine the arch-reactionary Maurice Cowling and the communist Moses Finley exchanging “advice and criticism”

[soldier-requests]

Hello! I'm looking for some masculine name ideas for a Sniper-kin ; if you want to experiment with making it earth/forest/canine themed that'd be really swag

hello!! wasn’t too sure about how masc some of these names feel, but i hope you find something you like regardless!

there's not as much as i normally end up doing, but it's still quite the list so i put them under the cut 👍.

acacia

acacius

ace

ackley

acorn

affie

alaska

alfie

alpine

arbor

arc

archer

archie

arctic

aries

arthur

artus

ash

asher

ashford

ashton

aster

atlas

august

augustin(e)

augustus

avens

avery

bandit

baron

basil

bass

basset

bay

bear

beaumont

beck

beetle

ben

bengal

benji

benny

bentley

benton

berry

birch

birk

blackjack

blaze

blue

blume

bo, boe

bolt

bone

boomer

borage

border

boxer

bracker

bracket

bramble

briar

brick

brin

brock

bryce

bryn

buck

bud

bull

burr

bush

busher

bushie, bushy

butch

buzz

caelum, caylum

callum

cane, kane

canid

canine

canyon

cas

casey

caspian

cedar

cerberus

charcoal

charlie

cheddar

chen

chez

chow

cider

ciel

cinder

citrine

citron

citrus

clay

clement

cliff

cloud

coal

coast

cobalt

cobolt

cocoa

collie

colt

columbine

columbo

columbus

conan

cooper

copper

cove

coy

coyote

crane

crimson

crispin

crow

curry

cyan

cypress

dagwood

dak

dakota, dakoda

dale

dane

dante

darrah

darren

darrow

david

dawson

deacon

dean

declan

den

denis, denys

deniz

denver

derry

dhole

digger

dill

dingo

dipper

douglas

drake

duff(y)

duke

dulce

dune

dusk

dust

dustin

dusty

dutch

dutchen

east

eden

elvis

elwood

emerald

emerson

emery

everest

everett

evergreen

falcon

fallon

fang

farley

fennec

fennel

fergus

fews

fin, finn

finch

finley, finnley

fir

firth

fish

fisher

flax

flint

florence

florent

flynn

ford

forest

forester

frank

frankie

franklin

fraser, frazier, frasier, frazer

frost

gale(n)

gardner

gene

genesis

ginger

goldie

grain

grey, gray

grove(s)

hades

harvest

hawk(e)

hazel

heath

hercules

hive

holland

hound

hugo

hum

hummer

hunt

hunter

huntie, hunty

jack

jackal

jackie, jacky

jason

jasper

jay

jett

joey

jove

july

june

juniper

juno

jupiter

kai

kale

kestrel

kip

kippy, kippie

koa

koi

lake

lark

leo

loch

locust

lodge

lotis

lotus

lucky

lumen

lupin(e)

lupis

mace

magnus

mane(d)

mango

march

marley

marlow

marsh

marshal(l)

matchbox

maverick

max

meek

meer

merlin

mickey

mint(y)

mob(y)

moose

morgan

morris

moses

moss

mossy, mossie

nash

nasher

nicholas

noble

norman

north

nox

oak

oakie

odie

odin

oleander

olive(r)

olivier

ollie

oto

otter

otto

ottoman

packet(t)

pear

percival

percy

perry

perseus

picard

pickle

pine

pongo

prairie

prince

red, redd

reed, reid

ren

rhodes

rhody

ridge

rock(e)

rocky, rockie

roman

ronat

rook

root

rory

rover

rudy

rune

russel

salmon

samsun, samson

scruff

scruffy, scruffie

silver

silvester

skylark

smokey

sol

solei(l)

solomon

sorrel

south

spade

sparrow

spot

spruce

stag

sterling

stone

sun

sunray

talon

tawny

terran

terro

terry, terrie

theo

thistle

thor

thyme

titan

toms

trip

tunnel

turtle

velvet

vulp

vulpes

wade

wane

warbler

wax

waxer

weaver

wells

west

whistler

winston

wolf(e)

wood

woodrow

woodson

woody, woodie

york

zeus

[dlittle30]

Moses Finley's persecution by McCarthyism

MI Finley (1912-1986) played a transformative role in the development of studies of the ancient world in the 1960s through the 1980s. He contributed to a reorientation of the field away from purely textual and philological sources to broad application of contemporary social science frameworks to the ancient world. His book The Ancient Economy (1973) was especially influential. Finley was born in…

[formfromanarchy]

"Arguments about debt have been going on for at least five thousand years. For most of human history -at least, the history of states and empires- most human beings have been told that they are debtors. Historians, and particularly historians of ideas, have been oddly reluctant to consider the human consequences; especially since this situation -more than any other- has caused continual outrage and resentment. Tell people they are inferior, they are unlikely to be pleased, but this surprisingly rarely leads to armed revolt. Tell people that they are potential equals who have failed, and that therefore, even what they do have they do not deserve, that it isn't rightly theirs, and you are much more likely to inspire rage. Certainly this is what history would seem to teach us. For thousands of years, the struggle between rich and poor has largely taken the form of conflicts between creditors and debtors-of arguments about the rights and wrongs of interest payments, debt peonage, amnesty, repossession, restitution, the sequestering of sheep, the seizing of vineyards, and the selling of debtors' children into slavery. By the same token, for the last five thousand years, with remarkable regularity, popular insurrections have begun the same way: with the ritual destruction of the debt records-tablets, papyri, ledgers, whatever form they might have taken in any particular time and place. (After that, rebels usually go after the records of landholding and tax assessments. ) As the great classicist Moses Finley often liked to say, in the ancient world, all revolutionary movements had a single program: "Cancel the debts and redistribute the land.""

David Graeber - Debt: the first 5000 years

[breitzbachbea]

ACTUALLY I want to add Ancient Sicily by Moses I. Finley to the Bad Books List. It was Alright, but I don't feel like I really learned anything and that fucking thing REEKED of the 1960s. I still feel betrayed by my professor suggesting it and after I read it and complained, he was like "Oh yes, Finley certainly has. A Viewpoint" in a derogatory way and I was like. SO YOU KNEW YOU MADE ME READ A MID-BOOK?!

[gqwego]

The World of Odysseus - Moses I. Finley

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by Moses I. Finley.

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The World of Odysseus is a concise and penetrating account of the society that gave birth to the Iliad and the Odyssey--a book that provides a vivid picture of the Greek Dark Ages, its men and women, works and days, morals and values. Long celebrated as a pathbreaking achievement in the social history of the ancient world, M.I. Finley's brilliant study remains, as classicist Bernard Knox notes in his introduction to this new edition, "as indispensable to the professional as it is accessible to the general reader"--a fundamental companion for students of Homer and Homeric Greece.

[dionysus-complex]

also find it interesting that the Rutgers Database of Classical Scholars’ entry on Moses Finley somehow avoids mentioning that he was wrongfully fired from Rutgers as a suspected communist except in the vaguest possible terms ( “... especially after he emigrated to England during the McCarthy period”)

[wagahai-da]

starting moses finley's the ancient economy and ancient slavery and modern ideology for my prelims