#Mormon God omniscience

[mindfulldsliving]

Responding Michelle Grimes of LAM: God's Omniscience and Foreknowledge in LDS Beliefs

Critics often claim that Latter-day Saint teachings misrepresent God’s omniscience. Michelle Grimes of Life After Ministries recently questioned whether the LDS God “always knows.” Her critique references a statement by Harold B. Lee, igniting debates about foreknowledge and divine perfection. In this post, I’ll address her arguments head-on, clarify LDS doctrine, and highlight what many critics…

[threebooksoneplot]

what draws you both to jalice/makes you so feral about them as a ship?

you should know we had an entire meeting in order to answer this ask. no this could NOT have been an email (unlike new moon) 🤭

Secretary G took notes. they are as follows (read the bolded parts for a tl;dr)

we kind of see it as though jalice got the traits that edbella weren’t allowed to have, either due to their status as protagonists or because smeyer's mormon background causes her to view these qualities as too sinful/negative for her wholesome Waiting Until Marriage main couple. (examples: alice's materialistic, "shallow," hyperfeminine qualities, her character flaws (especially her manipulativeness), and jasper's aura and history of fucked up violence closer to what you'd find in traditional vampire stories/horror/adult gothics/books not written by a mormon author)

in terms of how much screentime the non-main-love-triangle canon couples get, their relationship is kiiiinda given the next-most weight to edbella’s (examples: jasper's extreme overprotectiveness, the New Moon chapter 19 moment where alice prioritizes jasper and bella is like “yeah I get it, I would do the same.”) basically smeyer gives jalice's relationship a lot of the qualities she finds romantic/ideal, (and which are either similarly romantic to us or entertainingly toxic/a good source of drama), presumably because alice is like her 4th-favorite character after the main love triangle and she wants nice things for her

we both really love how, superficially, as presented in the books, jasper and alice seem to have this almost “courtly love” that smeyer has described as "spiritual." yet when you look closer, their relationship has so many darker undertones—the deep codependency bordering on obsessiveness (mutual, but especially the way it manifests on jasper's end—"I will kill this random teen girl who witnessed edward's jean valjean moment™ because any means are justifiable when the ends are Protecting Alice"), the dark sides of both of their powers, the idea that jasper is only a cullen and/or only a vegetarian for alice's sake, etc. hell, even the fact that they're the only Cullen couple who we know had (gasp) premarital sex 😏 (I mean we assume rosemmett did too, but alas, they don't have that hilarious "carlisle convinced jasper and alice to get married" quote from smeyer)

partially summarized: "jasper’s general desperate willingness to sell everyone to satan for one corn chip if it keeps alice safe (carlisle: I know this and I love you)"

we're forever smug that the movies gave us even more jalice screentime (especially remarkable in such a protagonist-centric universe), including jasper being in the same grade as alice/bella/edward, and the extra jalice kisses in Eclipse and BD 🥺

what we wrote down as the “who’s protecting whom" phenomenon, as coined by G in this old ask. (shannon: "jasper is the toddler you've given the PS2 controller that's not plugged in")

we also like the characters individually. jasper is for the girlies with competency kinks—a stoic caretaker who speaks little and mostly expresses himself via acts of service. we also both love the way in which he needs protection from his own uncontrolled violence (slipping up and killing humans, suffering the pain and fear he inflicts, etc.) he is, in the words of our beloved @liceparade, the "line cook trauma boyfriend"

“It’s hot when there’s a fictional violent man who wet babygirl 😌” —shannon

and alice, unlike bella, genuinely loves being spoiled and bossing people around. she's brat-coded, she's confident and secure in who she is, her god complex ("I'm close enough [to omniscient]") causes fascinating conflict, bella eats drywall from sheer horniness at her merest movement, she dresses like a slut in the Mormon YA Novels and yet somehow escapes authorial condemnation, she has a sickass gothic heroine backstory, she's "annoying," aro started a whole war over her (eat shit helen of troy 🖕), she spaces out in public and has to be led around by jasper, she's one of the most powerful vampires in the world, she's in high school getting a C+ on her precalc test 💅🏻

it's appealing that smeyer frequently puts alice in the center of the series' various conflicts (james' singer and "one that got away," the accidental cause of all the drama at the end of new moon, one of aro's secret True motives for starting the conflict in BD.) this is mostly as a consequence of smeyer using alice as a plot device and/or deus ex machina, but it is in fact interesting

is alice jasper's morality chain? we love pondering this question via fic, meta, etc (especially because...alice ain't exactly a model of ethical behavior herself)

together, the two of them exhibit lots of classic tropes. they're grumpy x sunshine, chatty x silent, opposites attract, etc. to say nothing of that height difference 🥵

we love the yin/yang symbolism of a character with a horrific past paired with a character with NO memory of her past, who is focused on the future and all about potential. not to invoke an ancient phrase but POETIC CINEMA

the next note just says “POTENTIAL in general.” I assume we meant how all of the above stuff creates potential for interesting stories, conflicts, metas, art, fic, etc

G has brought this up in the past, but we love the irony of jasper, a character whose chief desire is to be left in peace, being soul-alteringly in love with the one character who will always be a giant glaring target through no fault of her own. hilarious

[catsnuggler]

My dad still has a grudge against me for not having received a temple endowment, garments, the whole nine yards, before leaving the LDS church. Says I didn't give it the chance it deserved. Argued with me about the "Lamanite curse" thing, bringing up that there was also some kind of blessing or something bestowed - I don't care, still fucking racist, colonialist bullshit.

My ancestors were fucking colonizers, and I will be no better than them until I do my part in the fight to give the land back. Leaving the LDS church didn't materially do a damn thing for colonized people, but ending my loyalty to an explicitly colonialist organization isn't a bad start.

He also said I could still be a polytheist and be a Mormon? The fuck is up with that? He's a... well, in a sense, he is a polytheist, too, believing that Jesus and God are gods, the Holy Ghost is God's wife, and there are many other gods, but his views are, shall we say, heterodox in Mormonism, and besides, my polytheism is still incompatible with... whatever he has going on there. I don't believe in a single omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god. I believe in powerful, often wise, often good, but imperfect gods; some united, some divided; as well as land spirits and ancestral spirits... The latter two I don't venerate, though, just personally.

Regarding land spirits, I doubt many around here came from the old countries, and the native ones probably aren't so keen on talking with an English-speaking, blue-eyed paleface, given, oh... The last 500 years or so. Sidenote: I think it's silly for white, usually British-derived individuals to go on spiritual retreats to India for similar reasons. Y'think Ganesh and company (idk if Hindus are animists though, which is why I just reference the... fuck, are they gods or aspects of one god? Fuck) gonna smile on you after what the British East India Trading Company did? After Churchill starved the Bengalis? After all that, you think the local powers there will welcome you?

As for ancestors, they need not be literal, biological ancestors, but even so, I don't do ancestor veneration bc I'm not proud of my biological ancestors, and... I just don't stack up to any historical figures. Not sure I ever can.

Hell, I barely even pray to my gods for similar reasons.

Apparently, Athena knocked on my metaphorical door a while back, or so a good, sensitive friend told me, but, while I did research Greek stuff a bit, I didn't ever answer her call. I only wear a hammer pendant for the Norses, and whisper a very occasional, rare, short, private little prayer when someone is sick or when a trip is being made, so why take up with another pantheon on top of that?

I usually post this kind of thing on my religious blog, but, Hell, this is also my blog, and I figure an occasional update here on my spiritual beliefs and worship status won't oppress any of you.

[the-hem]

"The Waking State." From the Mandukya Karika.

Over and over the nations of this world and its governors disappoint, finding new and interesting ways to promote the causes of the Diabolic Estate instead of protecting their people and guaranteeing the future.

About this, Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita said: if we cultivate antagonistic persons or personalities, we will always be forced to deal with a dangerous world.

As Chinmayananda says, with a little more attention to the details, we will be able to destroy Donald Trump and the Republican Party and attain great power over the outcomes of this world. But as for what Kamala Harris did yesterday, instead of showing up with an army of police with arrest warrants for all those men and women who helped the Mormons attempt to sack the Capitol four years ago and let them go free, she condemned the innocent instead.

One cannot swear in a presidential candidate that was not legally allowed to attain to the White House. Neither Donald Trump nor most of the members of the Republican Party, who egged on the Mormons during the Capitol Coup are eligible. Joe Biden, and his cabinet therefore must remain in office for the upcoming term.

The Karika adds to Krishna's discussion about qualities, among them, the human ability to be "devoid of perception", act completely purposefully oblivious to outcomes, and choose Satan instead of God,

IV-87. The duality that is co-existent with both object and (its) perception is said to be the ordinary (waking) state. That state where there is only perception without (the actual presence of an) object is said to be the ordinary (dream) state.

IV-88. The state devoid of object and devoid of perception is regarded as extraordinary. Thus have the wise for ever declared knowledge, object, and the knowable.

IV-89. On acquiring knowledge (of the threefold objects) and on knowing the objects in succession, there follows consequently, for the man of great intellect here, the state of omniscience for ever.

 IV-90. Those which are to be abandoned, realised, adopted, and made ineffective should be known first. Of these, the three, excepting the thing to be realised, are regarded as mere imaginations born of ignorance.

Donald Trump and the Republicans are intellectually ineffective, must be declared "unknowable" and sent to prison. The world needs men of extraordinary wisdom to help it recover from the fruits of its actions all of these decades. We must do everything within our means to see to it.

The law agrees.

[thenotsolittlemisspeculiar]

Iglesia ni Cristo, Mormonism, Islam, and Others

[prententiousjackal]

Talking to ghosts of the living from the future

I remember imagining myself being watched by ghosts from the future.

People would sometimes say spirits of dead relatives were watching us. I imagined that once we got to heaven, we could watch each-other's lives like a movie. Everything was recorded in a book of life that could be watched and heard and perhaps experienced in more ways by our friends and family in heaven.

I also remember seeing a Mormon video about chastity saying you shouldn't do anything you wouldn't want your parents watching. Which even as a believer I thought was dumb because different parents could have different standards, and just because it makes you uncomfortable for someone to watch you do something doesn't mean the watcher thinks it's wrong. I wouldn't want my mom watching me shower and she doesn't either but she sure wants me to shower anyway.

I also heard of people becoming Gods in heaven, I imagined that meant they'd be able to transcend time so it would be as if they're right here watching me in real time. There were future ghosts of all the people I knew who could be listening to me. It was a bit of a mystery to me if they needed permission. I suppose if they were respectful they'd only watch with my future self's permission. But I guess it wouldn't have mattered too much because timeless ghosts of people I knew from the future wouldn't judge me because they'd actually have the time to learn and understand what I was going through rather than using their short mortal window of time to judge me. They would be omniscient spirits who had seen it all. There could be no enraging shock from them. I could have a non-judgmental ghost therapist who just listens to me rant. I could say things to these ghosts from the future by just thinking the words in my head. I'd pick kind strangers and friends I'd never see again, in my head to talk to the future ghosts of. It was me fantasizing idealized versions of people to talk to. I suppose it was a bit like praying to Saints. It was much easier than praying to God because it was more casual. Less feeling of inferiority and unfamiliarity.

Wonder if this could be a premise of a book. Perhaps being haunted by the future ghost of a crush. Maybe it could be ambiguous if the ghost is real. It'd be somewhere between Truman Show, Donnie Darko. and the Slipknot songs, Vermillion and Vermillion Pt 2. It'd be nice for it to have the thoughtfulness of the book Things not Seen by Andrew Clements. But I could also see things go terribly wrong in a more horror direction. Perhaps the ghost is a ghost from another timeline that has been closed off from opportunities missed. Perhaps the ghost is trying to create the timeline where she exists as the main character's partner. Perhaps she is accidentally stopping her current self from existing, by giving the main character an alternative idealized version to love instead of giving the character the confidence to love the living version of her. Then the main character loses resolve to love the living her but ends up risking losing his chances and losing the real her and the ghost her at the same time when the timeline is rewritten. Perhaps the main character goes the stalker route or become really possessive because of his surety of getting the relationship existing in the future. Such a creepy premise.

[automatismoateo]

Are some people really unable of critical thinking? The reason I'm atheist is because bible via /r/atheism

Are some people really unable of critical thinking? The reason I'm atheist is because bible We had a national wide acclaimed oncologist who was atheist, his reasons were the horrors he saw in WW2, what he experienced during some trips in third world country and what he saw during his career treating adults and children with terminal cancer. My reasons were (beside the horrors that happening everyday) were actually reading the bible one was : How a loving and merciful god gives humans a free will but then punish them to eternal suffering because I did exercised what "god himself" gave me. How a benevolent entity when is supposed to be omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent create humanity knowing all their future sins, but still create them so he can send to hell for eternal suffering? And many many more that it makes obvious that everything was created by men based on the circumstances of that period. I was around 10 even less. Funny enough I was traveling in New Zealand and I met a young American couple backpacking too, during one of our conversation the man says to me "I was a Mormon, my family still Mormon, I stopped to believe after reading the book of Mormon" Yet fully grown adults apparently reading all those books every Sunday at least but apparently they are incapable of realize it . Could be that subconsciously they know that it's all a BS but they decided to wish it's real? I just refuse to accept that the majority of humans lack of critical thinking. Submitted September 18, 2023 at 10:27PM by Fancy-Angle-8723 (From Reddit https://ift.tt/pUG2Mlt)

[lesbiansandco]

Sorry this took me so long to respond it's been a busy weekend So about my beliefs: I don't believe in Mother Nature and the Universe as actual god like beings, but as the collected forces of nature and space (for example, Mother Nature shaped my body though years of evolution and sends down rain to help her plants grow and gives food and water to the animals through the land - but it wasn't a being who did that, it was just nature being nature in a way that's so powerful and meaningful to me that I think it should be deified - and same thing with the Universe) So I respect both of these things as if they were gods - they don't have a hand in shaping my day to day life, they just do things how they're supposed to - and I guess that makes them uncaring, but what they do is so marvelous that they deserve my care (preserve the Earth and all that). I really like crystals and rocks because 1) they look cool and 2) they feel spiritual to me because Mother Nature shaped them through years of heat and pressure to make them so holding them and knowing what went into making them feels like I'm closer to the power of nature I have a small bowl of crystals and rocks I've collected that I call my prayer bowl, and sometimes I'll hold it and finger the crystals/rocks and just whisper an informal prayer to Mother Nature or the Universe or no one in particular thanking them for things and asking for some things (and it's so much better than mormon prayers that are very structured in the way you position your body and what you say and you're praying to an omniscient god who knows what's going to happen but you have to beg for things anyway and hope you get the answer you want whereas I don't believe anyone is hearing my prayers I'm just sending my thoughts and wishes out in a way that feels right for me and not expecting an answer back) I'm very interested in the beliefs of animism, which is about everything in nature having a spiritual aspect, and while I don't believe in traditional spirits, I respect and treat plants and animals as organisms in nature just like humans are As far and death and an afterlife go, I don't believe in consciousness after death, but I do take comfort in the idea that my body and its atoms will one day be a part of the bigger universe just like they once were before my body formed, and that'll be enough of a return to home for me I'm also growing some aloe plants right now (that I call my aloe babies) and that feels good because I'm working with nature to create something alive (that's not a human baby I don't want kids but still the miracle of life is really cool) Thanks for listening to all of this, and if you want to expand on your beliefs or discuss mine I'd love to hear it <3

For the apostate ask game: 2, 7, 10

2: How would you describe your current beliefs?

Simple, plain answer? I believe in people and our ability to change things to make them better, and in my ability to improve my own life and the lives of those around me. Everything else is just details.

Interesting, complicated answer that’s quasi-spiritual and can change if sufficient evidence is placed against it?

I believe that I’m a part of the universe, that I’m made up of all the information that designates what I am and where I’m going, the velocity and direction of all of my atoms, the energy in my mind that makes up my thoughts, and that there’s no real distinction between myself and the people and the world around me, on a universe scale. When/if I die, I’ll wake up as the universe, having experienced everyone and everything from every angle, and that will be interesting too.

7: Do you like angels or demons?

I find it ironic that the icons of Christian cops and jailers have become SO GOOD at being queer icons.

I may have to draw more of them soon.

10: What do you love about the world?

The sheer cosmic size of it all. The wider you look, the more you see, and the closer you peer, the more details you find. Endless discovery, endless variety and story. I hope I get to live to see it all and be a part of making more.

How about you? What are your thoughts on these questions?

[exmormondragon]

I’ve seen some posts prompted by Under the Banner of Heaven, and specifically some talk about the violence and the history.

A few people brought up some points I admit I haven’t thought of before, being that the people back then were more violent in general. I don’t know the statistics and the general reality of the past, but I’m prepared to believe that the general culture was violent and bloodthirsty back then, not just Mormons.

And in general, I’m prepared to accept the past. Individuals and societies grow and change and become better, and if my main qualm was the initially violent past of the church I probably would have stayed and tried to fix it.

In the end, though, my problem is the same as it always is. The church has problems with its past? Well, so do people. The church preaches forgiveness and growth? I think that’s good stuff.

But people don’t claim to be God.

People don’t claim to be all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, and all loving.

People don’t claim to be perfect.

The church does. The church claims the guidance of a omnipotent omniscient being, and that means you no longer get the excuse of being ‘mistaken’ or ‘still growing’.

You don’t get to blame every bad thing that happens on ‘everybody’s human’ because you elevated yourself to be above humanity.

With infinite power comes infinite responsibility.

[redhoodfucker69]

Modern Family really tried to tell us gay men and lesbians hate each other. I don't know what they're talking about. I'm a trans gay man with gynophobia and my best friend is a high femme he/him lesbian. We're the best friends. Opposite ends of the he/him spectrum. King and King of cringe and shitposts. Gods of our own realities. We have become omniscient. We're both on antipsychotics. I don't fucking know. We spam each other tiktoks. The only major fight we've had besides that one time this girl told him I said to have an affair with his comphet boyfriend was over the fact that I (Pentecostal at the time) summoned a demon in the teacher's lounge with a Mormon, two Catholics, and an agnostic, and didn't invite him. We fight over Dr. Pepper not being properly placed in the fridge where it belongs. I call him a whore constantly. We bond over thirsting over fictional long haired men with god complexes. Because lesbians like girl software running on boy hardware and I have massive gender envy for Thranduil but tragically look like a fucking hobbit. He was my first crush. Things went rabidly different. God looked at us and said this one needs to be a mean twink and this one needs to be a meaner lesbian. I love him.

Anyways gay men love lesbians. Fuck y'all. Wlw mlm solidarity. Modern Family is wrong. I forgot to take my antipsychotic and there's demons talking to me. Good fucking night.

[mindfulldsliving]

Responding to Michelle Grim's Criticism: Brigham Young, Divine Inspiration, and Logical Fallacies

Brigham Young, by John Mulvany Critics often misrepresent Brigham Young’s words, turning powerful teachings into points of contention. Recently, Michelle Grim’s post at Life After Ministry questioned Brigham’s claim of reading thoughts, sparking confusion among readers. But was this really a claim of supernatural power? Just imagine listening to this all those years ago. Do you just accept it…

[welkinalauda]

GOD'S TOTAL QUALITY MANAGEMENT QUESTIONNAIRE

[I don’t know who wrote this - I first saw it on usenet way back when. It seemed timely, though.]

God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions.

How did you find out about your Deity? Newspaper Bible Torah Book of Mormon Koran Divine inspiration Dead Sea Scrolls My mama done tol' me Near-death experience Near-life experience National Public Radio Tabloid Burning shrubbery Other (specify):

Which model Deity did you acquire? YHVH Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak] Jehovah Jesus Krishna Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak] Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak] Allah Satan Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature God 1.0a (hairy thunderer) God 1.0b (cosmic muffin) None of the above; I was taken in by a false god

Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes? Yes No If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply: Not eternal Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire universe Not omniscient Not omnipotent Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to allcreations) Permits sex outside of marriage Prohibits sex outside of marriage Makes mistakes (Geraldo Rivera, Jesse Helms) Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched Requires burnt offerings Requires virgin sacrifices Plays dice with the universe

What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a Deity? Please check all that apply. Indoctrinated by parents Needed a reason to live Indoctrinated by society Needed focus in whom to despise Imaginary friend grew up Wanted to know Jesus in the Biblical sense Graduated from the tooth fairy Hate to think for myself Wanted to meet girls/boys Fear of death Wanted to piss off parents Needed a day away from work Desperate need for certainty Like organ music Need to feel morally superior Thought Jerry Falwell was cool My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it

Have you ever worshiped a Deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply. Mick Jagger Rajanish Baal The almighty dollar Bill Gates Left-wing liberalism The radical right Ra Beelzebub Barney T.B.P.D. The Great Spirit The Great Pumpkin The sun Elvis Cindy Crawford The moon TV news Burning shrubbery Other:

Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply. Tarot Lottery Astrology Television Fortune cookies Ann Landers Psychic Friends Network Dianetics Palmistry Playboy and/or Playgirl Self-help books Sex, drugs, rock and roll Biorhythms Alcohol Bill Clinton Tea leaves EST CompuServe Mantras Jimmy Swaggert Crystals (not including Crystal Gayle) Human sacrifice Pyramids Wandering in a desert Burning shrubbery Barney T.B.P.D. Barney Fife Other:___________

God employs a limited degree of divine intervention to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? a. More divine intervention b. Less divine intervention c. Current level of divine intervention is just right d. Don't know...what's divine intervention?

God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 his handling of the following: (1=unsatisfactory, 5=excellent):Disasters:12345 Flood Famine Earthquake War Pestilence Plague Spam AOL Miracles:12345 Rescues Spontaneous Remissions Stars hovering over jerkwater towns Crying statues Water changing to wine Walking on water VCRs that set their own clocks Saddam Hussein still alive Getting any sex whatsoever

Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services?

If you are able to complete the questionnaire and return it to one of our conveniently located drop-off boxes by December 31 you will be entered in the One Free Miracle of Your Choice drawing.Chances of winning are approximately one in 6.023 x 1023, depending on number of beings entered.

[blog-of-a-multitude-of-fandoms]

Church- Kevin Price

Pairing: Kevin Price x Reader

Characters: Kevin Price

Warnings: N/A

Request: Anon- Saw the ask about The Book of Mormon and couldn't resist, could I request a fic with Price where you like him but he keeps acting arrogant not realising hes losing you. 

Word Count: 400

Author: Aaron

“Come on now we do not want to be late to church now do we? I don't want to Heavenly Father to have to put a tardy on my crisp permanent record.” The sharp prongs of his pocket-sized comb ran through his freshly pruned and perfected hair, placing the last few askew hairs back to where they should have been. Whilst he was taking too much care in his attention, he caught you in the mirror.

“You cannot wear that to church! What will the other elders think of me? Your shoulders are almost showing. No way, you need to put something less revealing on.” “Do you really care that much about what the other elders will think?”

“Well yeah, you don't get to be the elder that brings the most people to the church for four months in a row without caring about what other people think about you.”

“So, you'd rather keep the other elders happy and not me?”

“Well no, I just care much greater about their opinion as opposed to yours. Now come on, at least put a shoal on or something so we can make a move.”

“No, I'm not going.”

“Come on honey, we are Mormons, we don't just skip church.” His jaw dropped and he began to whisper, as if he thought that the omniscient and omnipotent God couldn't hear him so long as he talked a bit quieter than normal. “No, we are not skipping. We're not playing hooky like some high school heathens, what next? Heroin...coffee?!”

“You go, I'll just stay and hide myself away from the world, maybe wrap myself up in a few… Maybe fifteen layers and then I'll meet you there?”

“Oh come on honey, all I'm saying is that a little bit of modesty makes us all look better. I mean look at me, a staple of the Mormon community. Fresh shirt, crisp hair and a heart full of love and faith for Heavenly Father.” His hand ran down his tie and then buffed his badge that took pride of place on his chest.

“I'm not going Kevin. Apologise and I'll think about it, but until then I'm staying here and my shoulders are shining for the whole damn world to see.” He gasped in horror.

“Do not use such profanity. Oh Heavenly Father what have I gotten myself into with this one…”

“Just go to church.”

[automatismoateo]

The more I know about Christian the more I am confused with how could this crap replace polytheism in Europe via /r/atheism

The more I know about Christian, the more I am confused with how could this crap replace polytheism in Europe

I am an Asian atheist heavily impacted by polytheism culture. I am not really suggesting which one is more correct, but kind of thinking it is more logical and profitable to believe polytheism if one of those existing religions has to be true. Here are the differences in polytheism and monotheism believes I noticed:

Polytheists believe that there are evil spirits and gods that may have the power to rival the good gods, but monotheists tell you that it is the singular god who allowed devil to mess with you to test your faith.

Based upon this logic, your life is really more valuable to polytheism gods because you are still a part of the greater multiverse, but monotheism such as Christian and Islam believe that your life is a freak show to amuse god. Although monotheists won't agree with this interpretation, but that's really their religions are about. All the enemies making their lives miserable aren't even a threat to their god, but only exist to amuse god, and god somehow still loves human.

Polytheists don't have the habit of appreciating good gods if it is not their prayer came true, but they also don't consider their misfortune as the arrangement of a specific evil gods. When Christians tried to preach their religion to me, I seriously couldn't understand why would I appreciate that psychopathic voyeur who flooded the whole world, and kept butting into his prophets' family affairs and even manages when women's womb should open whenever something good happens to me, without blaming him for the bad stuffs.

Polytheists believe there are gods as weak as Conor McGregor, and ones powerful enough to lift mountain or even shatter a planet, but none of them are all-capable. If god knows everything, and is capable of everything, then there is really no point for him to do anything in my opinion. The irony is that comparing different religion myths, this Yahweh is even more unhinged and less intelligent than pagan gods. Although Sumerian gods also drowned humans because they found humans annoying, they accepted criticism and showed remorse in The Epic of Gilgamesh. If you insist god is singular and omniscience, then you will have a hard time to explain why this psychopath voyeur Yahweh messed up so frequently.

Polytheists also believe that even good gods aren't always right and may also take bribery from evil people out of selfishness. In the story of Esau and Jacob, the only evil thing that Esau had committed is forgiving Jacob because of his soft heart and allowed this monster to plague other people. Jacob had not done a single good deed in his life, but New Testament Hebrew provided you tones of laughable explanations that he is the good guy. BTW, whenever Mormons preach their religion to you, you can tell them that you are not a criminal who needs supernatural assistance like Jacob, and you are not paying 10% of your income like him.

Here are some examples that contradict that god is not omniscience:

He predicted Esau will serve Jacob, but Jacob ended up bowing to Esau, and Yahweh himself couldn't even win wrestle against Jacob.

Before the ending, Jesus was a narcissistic racist who despised gentile races all the time, threatened people with the end of world which was supposed to be coming very soon, and shouted that people should crown him as their king. After he got himself into trouble by offending too many Jewish authorities, he then decided to suffer for the sins of all human being in the past and future to save the world. After reading that part, it really sounds like the way cultists defend their leader's prophecy when it fails to happen.

Submitted July 01, 2023 at 09:20PM by TitaniumShin (From Reddit https://ift.tt/b1s5zK6)

[ecaloshay]

This is like the food equivalent of that Mormon cockwarming practice “soaking” where God apparently can only tell you’re having sex if you move.

If God is meant to be omniscient, I’m pretty sure he’s not going to be fooled by pastry or a lack of motion sensor.

Ravioli Of Lying To God

[exmormondragon]

I’ve been seeing a number of posts going around about Forgiveness, and they’ve brought up thoughts about what I learned about Forgiveness in the church and how I deconstructed it personally back in the day. I’m not totally sure where this current train of thought will go, but it’s probably about time I deconstructed my reasonings on it again to see if it still holds up.

This is longer than I expected so I’ve shortened it for y’all. Potential triggers, I suppose? I’m not sure, but if there is anything that makes you stress out, consider taking a break or not reading it, depending on your needs.

Back in the church, I learned a lot about ‘Forgiveness.’ It’s what the whole thing is supposedly about, after all, being ‘Forgiven for our sins.’

Something the Mormon church does, though (I don’t know how many other Christian denominations and sects do this, but I would assume a fair number) is that they like to make up their own words, recreate words, and redefine words to mean whatever they want. This is absolutely a normal thing that happens in cultures as language diverges and groups create their own in-sayings and personal understandings, but what it means is that it’s easy for the church to create their own understandings of words and for members to say something (like ‘Modest’) and have it mean something very different than what someone raised in the rest of the world would mean.

Something the church definitely does that I think is terrible and abusive is make things as vague and uncertain as possible so that they can say the same word in different contexts and have it mean entirely opposite meanings. That stuff sucks.

And while the idea of ‘Forgiveness’ isn’t the word I think they misused the worst, I noticed at least some even back when I was a true believing member. At the time I attributed it to ‘member mistakes’ like the church intended, but since then I’ve come to realize it probably was as intentional as any other misdirections they do.

Anyway, in the church—and all of this comes with the knowledge that it was my own personal experience, mixed with stories I’ve heard from others—Forgiveness is thrown at you in a myriad of different forms and examples. And almost always, it’s paired with ‘Forgetting.”

The big one, of course, is God supposedly forgiving and forgetting every sin we’ve ever done as soon as we repent. In the Big Book of Life, where words are written like stone, the mistakes of the past are supposedly wiped away like they never even existed, and God forgets it like it never even happened.

Issue being that this is never actually shown in the church. I never had this personal experience, but many I know of have had their old mistakes brought up in new ‘worthiness’ meetings, despite the fact that they already reprinted. Ironically, I think a truly omnipotent and loving god is the one being in the universe who truly could forgive and forget with no negative consequences.

Though now that I think about it, I’m not sure how and Omniscient god could ‘forget’ anything at all.

Other examples are most prominent in how we were asked to forgive our neighbors, our abusers, our family. And this, even if it wasn’t always said, also comes with the implicit expectation of ‘Forget.’

I think this is where I up and say that I think I still believe in the idea of forgiving. Partly because consciously holding onto a grudge seems like a bad idea that is more harmful than helpful, but mostly because I do think that forgiving on a purely definition-based standpoint is essential to actually making progress on an individual and societal standpoint.

At this point, I want to also point out what the definition is according to the internet, something that I wasn’t actually sure about until I looked it up. (Goes to show how uncertain the church made me about the ‘understanding of men’ or whatever.) There are a number of ways it is phrased, but they boil down to two main things:

1. To give up resentment against or stop wanting to punish (someone) for an offense or fault; pardon.

2. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

In the church, forgiveness is equated with ‘let it go, don’t do anything different, they’ll do better next time.’ It’s also used in reverse, to say ‘God forgives you, so make sure you do better next time.”

That’s stupid. I do think it’s very important, if one can, to learn to Forgive.

But never, ever, do I think we should Forget.

This kind of summarizes my thoughts on the topic overall, my Thesis Statement or whatever. I’ll expound, though.

One, being told you’re forgiven and you have another chance, without being given tools to actually do differently means you’re going to make the same mistake again and go through the whole process and feel guilty about it. (And I’m talking a real mistake, like hitting your sibling or something, not Being Gay. That’s a whole different beast of mistreatment and misunderstanding that I think we all already understand pretty dang well.)

And two, forgiving someone else and then carrying on like nothing has changed means you’re going to get hurt again. This is the one most relevant to us mere mortals, because no one actually has the power to Forgive us on some sort of cosmic scale so it doesn’t really matter.

I think it’s perfectly acceptable to forgive someone for doing something wrong, even something terrible, and also cut them out of your life. To let go of the need to get revenge, or payment, and move on. Or, if it’s someone you want to keep in your life, to adjust your behavior accordingly. If your mother doesn’t respect your decisions but you’re still glad she raised you, you can stop going to her house and submitting to her rules, and just give her occasional phone calls instead.

The most important thing about this is the nuance. Every situation is individual, and sometimes you can forgive and move on like nothing happened because it was something minor that doesn’t matter. Sometimes you have to say “Hey, I don’t trust you to keep my art project safe anymore, so I’m going to carry that instead.” and then still go make a presentation together. Sometimes, you might need to say “Hey, until you learn to change, until you learn that what you’ve been doing has been harming me, I’m not going to be in contact. I’ll see you in a year to see if you’ve improved. Get some got-dang therapy.”

And sometimes, you just up and leave and never come back, or throw them out of your apartment and change the locks.

None of that, I think, is mutually exclusive with forgiveness. For the sake of yourself, to move on with your life without them, it might be good to let go.

Understandably, maybe that’s not possible.

Reading some of these posts did give me a new perspective on a few things, and helped me reset my stance on the idea of forgiveness. As a few people pointed out, trauma can cause wounds, scars, injuries that will never go away. This is something my relationship with my boyfriend probably helped prepare me to hear, because he’s had many thoughts and conversations with me about how people work and what it means to be angry in ways I may not have understood otherwise.

But I don’t think that makes forgiveness as a concept a scam, any more than a broken leg makes running a scam. A scar or a wound is not something to be expected on a healthy human… but that does not make them any less of a human, of a person who deserves care and love.

In the past, I likely would have said something to the equivalent of ‘Well, get better! You’ve gotta learn to forgive right now!” Now, I feel I can acknowledge the fact that it’s not something that can be done on purpose, in the moment, or else it would have been done already. And for some people, the scars may never heal entirely.

I just want to make the point that throwing the entire concept of forgiveness out may not be the way to go. Deconstructing, reshaping, and coming to understand why and how and what it means outside of a church and the Jesus Complex that might be a better way.

That’s for the emotional reasons, which I also know less about, and haven’t had any direct experience with something drastic enough to make forgiveness difficult for me. If there are thoughts I haven’t heard or points I may have missed, I welcome good discussion.

For the more direct reason to forgive—to remove a debt or not seek revenge—I think that’s much more important than actually forcing ones feelings to go away. It’s a thought along the lines of abolishing prisons and establishing rehabilitation instead. Coming to understand on a purely logical level that the people who hurt you were a product of their environment, the kind of forgiveness where you take the blame away from them, means you can shift that blame to understanding what about the environment—be it family, school, church, government, genetics, mental struggles, whatever—and working to improve or remove that so the next generation doesn’t have to grow up and become like that, so we can reduce overall conflict and nip harm at the bud.

It’s a part of my deterministic viewpoint of the world, I guess, but it makes me believe in improvement and a better future. And that starts with the kind of forgiveness where we absolve someone of blame and go beyond to find out why.

I don’t believe in original sin, and I don’t believe people are born sinners or evil or cruel. (Again, there’s nuance, but that’s the basics.)

Looking this all over again, it’s a bit of a ramble and a bit of a mess, and I may have redefined the term Forgiveness again. This is just something I’ve been thinking about for a long time, and seeing a half dozen posts tagged ‘forgiveness is a scam’ made me want to type it out.