#Ml Gorizilla

[character-fan19]

Optimizing Viewing Experience for Love Square Shippers

You guys have previously seen me make a post on the love square screen time records based on the data I collected on how much screen time each love square ship has in each episode and special and in each season exactly and now we're going to be putting that data to more practical use and using it to figure out what are the best seasons, episodes and specials for shippers of certain sides of the love square to watch when binging through Miraculous.

Adrienette

You don't need to know the exact screen time for Adrienette in every season to know that season 5 is the best season for Adrienette shippers to watch. Not only is it the season with the most Adrienette screen time, but it's also the season where Adrienette finally becomes canon which is yet another plus.

For episodes that feature particularly large amounts of Adrienette screen time you can look to "Gamer" (6 min 28 sec) in season 1; "Riposte" (4 min 14 sec), "Gorizilla" (4 min 11 sec) and "Frozer" (4 min 10 sec) in season 2; "Oblivio" (9 min 3 sec) and "The Puppeteer 2" (4 min 27 sec) in season 3; "Mr. Pigeon 72" (2 min 23 sec), "Psycomedian" (2 min 19 sec) and "Simpleman" (2 min 8 sec) in season 4; and "Determination" (4 min 46 sec), "Transmission" (4 min 49 sec) and "Protection" (4 min 19 sec) in season 5.

In terms of Miraculous World specials, you're best bet is the New York Special which has 7 min 40 sec of screen time which has the whole storyline of Marinette trying remain friends with Adrien.

Ladynoir

Really you can pick any season since Ladynoir dominates all of them but the best season for Ladynoir shippers would be season 1 which not only has the most Ladynoir out of all the seasons but also has that classic Ladynoir dynamic I've seen certain Ladynoir fans crave in the later seasons: fighting villains and just being a dynamic duo in general, Cat Noir making the puns and Ladybug getting annoyed with him, those kind of stuff.

For episodes with particularly high amounts of Ladynoir check out "Stormy Weather" (6 min 7 sec), "Mr. Pigeon" (6 min 10 sec), "Horrificator" (6 min 8 sec), "Kung Food" (7 min 3 sec), "Animan" (8 min 28 sec), and "Volpina" (6 min 7 sec) in season 1; "Prime Queen" (8 min 19 sec), "The Dark Owl" (8 min 14 sec), and "Mayura" (8 min 32 sec) in season 2; "Reflekdoll" (7 min 19 sec), "Timetagger" (6 min 22 sec), and "Cat Blanc" (6 min 35 sec) in season 3; "Truth" (4 min 4 sec), "Psycomedian" (5 min 40 sec), "Furious Fu" (4 min 57 sec), "Kuro Neko" (7 min 23 sec), and "Strikeback" (4 min 14 sec) in season 4; and "Evolution" (7 min 50 sec), "Multiplication" (7 min 36 sec), and "Passion" (7 min 4 sec) in season 5.

In terms of Miraculous World specials, you can go for the New York special which has 6 min 29 sec of screen time and gives us some good Ladynoir angst with Cat Noir betraying Ladybug's trust and feeling so guilty about that he gave up his Miraculous.

Maricat

For Maricat, the season of you're choice would be season 4, even though most of the screen time there is concentrated in "Glaciator 2". This season even has the episode with the most Maricat screen time in all of the show so far, that is, "Glaciator 2".

Episodes with particularly high amounts of Maricat screen time include "Evillustrator" (2 min 17 sec) and "Gamer" (54 sec) in season 1, "Glaciator" (3 min 29 sec) and "Befana" (36 sec) in season 2, "Weredad" (3 min 57 sec) and "Kwamibuster" (44 sec) in season 3, "Sentibubbler" (1 min 24 sec) and "Glaciator 2" (8 min 14 sec) in season 4, and "Elation" (5 min 37 sec) and "Protection" (48 sec) in season 5.

Ladrien

For Ladrien shippers, the best seasons for you guys to watch are seasons 2 and 3, moreso season 2, where Ladrien was at the peak of its screen time until it dwindled into nothingness in seasons 4 and 5.

For episodes with a particularly large amount of screen time we have "Simon Says" (1 min 22 sec) and "Volpina" (1 min 23 sec) in season 1, "Riposte" (3 min 42 sec) and "Gorizilla" (3 min 58 sec) in season 2, "Oblivio" (1 min 40 sec) and "Desparada" (5 min 35 sec) in season 3, "Strikeback" (37 sec) in season 4, and "Passion" (17 sec) in season 5.

Conclusion

Well, that's it. Hope this was helpful to some love square shippers who want to binge through Miraculous.

[burningstarfishqueen]

Marinette is a mess. She’s most defensive with Adrien, yet her shields fall for him and none of her efforts can hold them together.

Their clothing is symbolic of this, a picture of why the marichat shown in Exaltation didn’t work.

Chat Noir is not just dressed appropriately, but masked. Marinette’s rose imitates a mask, but she can rip it free and he cannot.

She takes a huge step forward in Protection. She has time to change her pajamas but chooses not to.

She accepts who she is and what she has with Adrien. Of course, her nerves don’t just vanish.

Their relationship can only work if he’ll let his protections down as well.

That’s where they reach: a place where they both trust, vulnerable and unprepared in their pajamas.

[feathers-blown-in-the-wind]

A Gorizilla analysis through the Spiderman lens : Why Ladrien is a genius subversion of the Peter/Gwen (and civilian/superhero) ship

Or way too many words of me explaining why Ladrien is good damnit

While the show seems dedicated to use every side of the love square but Ladrien this season, I do sincerely believe Ladrien has one of the most fascinating dynamic I've seen in superhero media. 

So here is an analysis of one of their most iconic moment :

THE GORIZILLA SCENE

The scene is crafted to remind the viewer of one of the most well-known tropes in the superhero genre: the love interest is captured by a villain. It's also a very interesting deconstruction of that trope and I will attempt to explain how below.

It's no secret that Spiderman was an inspiration for Ladybug and I'd argue this scene is reminiscent of it in a lot of ways. In the comics and most adaptations, there is one particular use of that kidnapping trope that comes to mind: the death of Gwen Stacy by the hand of the Green Goblin. Now how does that relate to the Ladrien scene? Let's see.

1. Hawkmoth (and Gabriel) as The Green Goblin : a father's gamble

Most people have at least a vague idea of who the Green Goblin is, and that particular inspiration is probably the most obvious between Spiderman and Ladybug: their nemesis is the father of one of their best friends. Which as both of them will realise, sucks a lot.

Now the Green Goblin setup in ML differs from the comics. At the time of the "Gwen Stacy's death" scene, Hawkmoth and Ladybug have no idea who the other is, whereas the Green Goblin and Spiderman are very well aware. This whole situation is a pure coincidence in classic ml fashion, where secret identities are everywhere and get tangled with each other A LOT. There's a reason the two facts people recognize as typical Miraculous are the love square and Hawkmoth's identity: it is a core part of the series, especially in early season 2, right after the audience learned of that fact.

Their identities being unknown to the other doesn't prevent the scene from working, it instead subverts it. It decides to deconstruct this popular trope: Gabriel has no idea that his son is special to Ladybug, but Adrien matters to him personally. You could argue the Gorizilla scene is an AU where the Green Goblin decides to kidnap Harry instead of Gwen (his own son over the love interest) but it would be missing the point of Miraculous "chassé-croisé d'identités". Here Adrien is both Harry, son of a super-villain, and Gwen, Ladybug's love interest, and it's what makes the scene so poignant. The scene is as much about testing how far Gabriel is willing to endanger his son as it is about if Ladybug can save him.

Adrien being directly involved isn't something Gabriel wants at all but he figures he can use it. You could argue this is the first moment in which Gabriel decides no questions asked to involve his son, and for good reason: confirming if Adrien is Chat Noir, his nemesis' partner. Gorizilla and Style Queen are some of the most humanizing moments Gabriel gets. The two moments where he almost lost Adrien, and the two moments where he wonders how far he can go to bring back his wife, wonders if he is willing to put the last thing he has left in danger on a gamble. This time he gambles: if Chat Noir truly is his son, he'll save himself. If he isn't, Ladybug will.

Adrien is missing, and his bodyguard is deeply upset: it's a perfect akuma setup, and the perfect opportunity to fight and potentially de-mask one of his enemies. Two birds one stone as they say. Unknowingly, Gabriel even strikes a third bird with this move : Ladybug's crush is captured.

2. Maribug as Peter Parker and Adrien as Gwen Stacy : the impossible romance

Gwen Stacy is a character that has been adapted and modified a lot. Sometimes made one with Mary Jane — Spider-Man's other well-known love interest — she is however remembered by one scene: her death (or at the very least her fall). For most people anyway. Now that sounds harsh and I don't believe it to be quite this clear cut: Gwen is very loveable during her life, and it's exactly the reason why her death is what we remember most. Her murder is a gut punch to the viewer and to Peter both because we love her as much as Peter does. 

Gwen is Peter's "one that got away", the love of his life that he absolutely can't be with (be it to protect her or because she's already dead): something that Adrien is more and more becoming for Marinette as the show goes on. So is Chat Noir, but Chat Noir is a point I will adress later on.

'Truth' confirms the idea that Marinette having a civilian boyfriend is a bad, terrible idea. To add to this lesson, there are many events in the show that adress why Adrien specifically is someone she is so attached to that she does stupid things. In Volpina, Ladybug almost gives up her Miraculous when she thinks that Adrien is in danger (again another instance where the "love interest in danger" trope is used for Ladrien). In the Christmas special, she gets someone akumatised over Adrien being missing. Desperada's whole plot is about how Ladrien makes them both act dumb and against what they should do. In Chat Blanc she is forced to backtrack on her confession to Adrien - the first one to actually go through - in order to save the world. The season 3 finale was kickstarted in part by her feelings for Adrien and her jealousy towards Kagami. The season 4 finale ended the way it did because she trusted who she thought was Adrien. So far it seems that in season 5 Marinette will take all of these lessons to heart: being close and in love with Adrien is bad for her job as hero. (I haven't watched Kwami's choice yet but from what I know of it, it certainly seems to agree)

There is an evident pattern in the show regarding Ladrien's future : as long as Ladybug and Hawkmoth exist, Adrien has to stay a fantasy, an unreachable relationship that Ladybug can't have, just like Gwen is to Peter. Which seems rather fitting for a romance between the son of a supervilain and Paris' Heroine.

Now the fall in Gorizilla is another example of this phenomenon, but it is a very specific one. For the first time, Adrien's safety is directly in danger. And we, as the audience, know it. Where Volpina and Santa Claws were fake-outs to freak out only Ladybug, here WE are in the same boat. We know Adrien is really there and falling to his certain death. And more importantly: we know Chat Noir isn't coming to save him.

3. The subversion : Adrien as Chat Noir (the importance of trust and agency)

Now here comes the real genius of the scene to me (the genius of the Ladrien dynamic and the love square in general really) : we know Adrien is Chat Noir. We know that Adrien isn't as defenseless as Gwen, or as far removed from the conflict as Harry is. Something that neither Ladybug nor Gabriel know. Adrien isn't an innocent bystander pulled into the conflict by his father and his crush: Adrien is Ladybug's partner and Gabriel's enemy.

We know Adrien is more than capable of saving himself because Gabriel is right: his son is a superhero. However just like our favorite blond boy reinforces to Plagg, saving himself by transforming would be a pretty terrible idea. We're left hoping that it doesn't come to that, and yet it's hard to know how they can avoid it.

The audience is well aware that no matter what happens, Adrien won't die permanently : but thanks to the 'Miraculous Ladybug', that doesn't mean Adrien can't die at all. Sure it would be very unlikely to show his dead body or anything in a kids show, but Chat Noir has definitely 'died' before. And the more the scene advances, the more you're left to wonder how the heroes could win without Adrien exposing his identity. And while Chat Blanc hadn't happened yet, we have a vague idea of the consequences this revelation could have based on our interactions with other superheroes media. Given the very specific game of identity going on, Gabriel confirming his theory would make the plot go way faster than expected (and might just end the show).

We know two things given the show's genre:

Adrien really can't be revealing his identity this early on (it would be kept for a finale or a two parter surely)

Ladybug will win the fight in the end

Whether the situation resolves itself before or after Adrien face-planted on the floor is up in the air. His death being only temporary won't change much on how the audience feels because Adrien is just as loveable as Gwen is. Him dying is the last thing we want since we love him as much as Marinette does and the stakes for the episode are therefore raised.

Now the consequences are all clear but I'd want to circle back to the beginning : how did we end up in this situation ?

In the original comics, Gwen is an absolute damsel in this situation : she's unconscious for pretty much the entire scene and basically gets yeeted off the rooftop. Adrien's situation is very different though and it circles back to one of the most important themes in the show: trust.

If anything, the closest description of the gorizilla scene is a giant trust fall. Gabriel, however willing he is to endanger Adrien, doesn't throw him off the building: he actually attempts to protect Adrien by keeping him with his bodyguard. Now how does Adrien fall then ? That's the thing: he doesn't. Adrien doesn't fall, Adrien jumps. As Ladybug arrives on the roof, she asks him to trust her. And as her secret crush or as Gabriels' son, he doesn't have any reason to do so this willingly. Except Adrien isn't just that: Adrien is Chat Noir. And Chat Noir always trusts Ladybug.

In this scene, Adrien keeps his agency, something Gwen (or most civilian love interests really) isn't usually allowed. There is a lot to be said about the Gwen death scene and some of the inherent sexism that existed in the comics (which is unnavoidable given the time period). Heck even the newer movies, who put a lot of efforts into making MJ a 'feminist' character didn't completely drop the damsel trope (it being inherently a good or bad thing is too nuanced a topic to discuss here). There is however one instance I know of in a Spiderman media where the 'someone I love is falling' is also a trust fall : the 2018 ps4 video game. Now why do I bring that up? Interestingly enough, this video game presents Mary Jane as Spiderman's partner. We can even play as her in some missions ! Now that dynamic sounds very familiar. Video game Mary Jane, just like Adrien, puts a great deal of trust in her partner. And it pays off !

Trust is a fundamental aspect of the love square, and most 'damsel in distress' situations showcase that heavily. Ladynoir trust each other through and through, even when they don't have their own mask on. Adrien is Chat Noir and his lady just told him to jump, to trust her. So he does.

Gabriel is completely panicked because he didn't want that. He doesn't want Adrien falling to his certain death and he sure as hell doesn't trust Ladybug to save him. Gabriel can't understand why his son would and yet Adrien did.

Even Ladybug herself gambles heavily in this scene, hoping against all hopes that her partner will come to save Adrien, trusting that he'll be there, as he always is for her.

Ladrien subverts most damsel in distress trope by virtue of Adrien keeping his agency in them. Adrien is still Chat Noir even when he drops the mask. Adrien chooses time and time again to trust Ladybug, to keep on hoping. And she never disappoints, in clear contrast to Gabriel who keeps on disappointing his son. Trust is a core theme of Miraculous, in both romantic and platonic relationships, and an area in which Marinette and Gabriel really show their differences: Adrien's trust in Ladybug is earned and deserved, whereas Gabriel constantly abuses it.

4. Now what ? An attempt at discussing Season 5 and the 'reverse love square'

Season 5 really puts an emphasis on the trust theme, with almost every Gabriel/Adrien scene being filled with manipulation, while Ladynoir reinforces the importance of trust, no matter how their romantic feelings might evolve. Adrienette follows a similar theme, with Marinette becoming Adrien's confidant, trusting her with his deeper feelings in a way he only did with Plagg (and arguably Ladybug) before.

Adrien might be Marinette's one that got away, but Marinette is undoubtly where Adrien's happy ending lies.

Ultimately, the biggest obstacle to Adrienette is Marinette herself: once she lets herself trust Adrien, their relationship will be smooth sailing (if Gabriel doesn't put his ugly nose where it doesn't belong that is). Interestingly enough, that's what Ladybug has to do in Strikeback, both with Adrien (the real one this time) and with Chat Noir.

The love square plays constantly with the angst, and yet we know the fluff will come eventually. Adrienette is basically the happy version of Gwen/Stacy, an updated version where the damsel becomes the partner, where the happy ending will come one day, as long as they both power through. And it's honestly the best way to describe how Ladybug and Spiderman differs: Peter's ending is rarely happy (seriously half of the comics have the worst endings ever) whereas Marinette's journey, hopeless as it can seem, will lead to happiness eventually.

There are thousands of ways in which the show could get there though, many of which are criticised by at least some part of the fandom for one reason or another. The beginning of the season has flip-flopped a lot between Adrienette and Ladynoir, with Marichat fans finally getting their long awaited 'square reversal'. But where does that leave Ladrien ?

Well according to most: nowhere (despite Marichat being the most popular side, even back when it was unrequited but I digress). There's a lot of hints that the reversal might not be as clear cut as some fans believe, but ultimately, until we get a Ladrien scene in Season 5, it will be complicated to truly settle the debate once and for all.

However, I like to believe that Ladrien will never be an inconsequential relationship: the trust between them will never disappear (I'd argue it's getting stronger than ever), and a love as deep as they had won't vanish that easily, no matter how much they may want to move on. There's still a lot of stories that could be told with Ladrien.

A reprise of the Gorizilla scene would be fascinating for example, and truly showcase how far we've come.

With his slow descent into full blown villainy, would Season 5 Gabriel let Adrien die, and with him the last sliver of a potential reconciliation and redemption ?

How would Ladybug react to Adrien's life being put in danger now ? Season 1 Ladybug almost gave up her Miraculous, but I wonder how a Season 5 one would react: would she trust Adrien to save himself ? Especially if this hypothetical scene happens post reveal.

Would Adrien take a gamble and transform despite the risks ?

There's a lot of different ways this situation could end and I'd be disappointed if they don't use it again.

Since the 'Hawkmoth is Gabriel' reveal, Ladrien has been anticipated to be at the core of his demise, and I still believe it will be the case. By then, the reveal will have blurred the lines, but I have no doubt that Adrien (as Hawkmoth's son) and Ladybug (as his nemesis) will matter most: ultimately, they're the ones that Gabriel cares about, and the finale will surely place them at the forefront, as the ending of the Agreste arc and Gabriel's final confrontation with the Guardian.

In the end, Marichat is the fun and chaotic side that sometimes delves deeper, Ladynoir is the workplace relationship based on complete trust, Adrienette is their teenage first love with all the awkwardness that comes with it, and Ladrien is the one that connects best to the plot: the Love Square is a mix of all of them, and something else entirely and I firmly believe that any analysis of their relationship that aims to do more than breach the surface needs to take a look at all of them and that certainly includes Ladrien, be it requited or platonic.

Now I'm certainly no expert and everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I believe that Ladrien still has a lot of things to offer, even now, perhaps especially so.

(Also for every Spiderman fan out there, don't hesitate to correct me on anything I may have said wrong here, I've never actually read the comics myself so my knowledge is mostly second hand and vague memories of the diverse movies.)

[shwushee]

ADRIENETTE !! Gorizilla episode Throwback ♥︎

these two are gonna give me a heart attack atp 🗿

Finally found a brush I can settle with AND a style 😭 (posting this at 9 pm cuz I'm itching to share it with you guys 😀)

[fernsnouveau]

I don't like the use of B-block personality disorders as buzzwords in places where just "manipulator" or "manipulation" would do; emotional manipulation and abuse are bad regardless of the abuser's neurotype. This phrasing problem is vastly common in articles dealing with emotional abuse, so please keep that in mind. The actual description of the manipulation tactic seems pretty solid, just, take the unnecessary B-block armchair diagnosis in the quoted article with a grain of salt.

Just saw a post that said Adrien is a love bomber... are we really throwing buzzwords around for the sake of salting on Adrien, the abuse victim? Love bombing is an emotional manipulation tactic, and it is usually paired with the cycle of abuse. Adrien is not abusive. He is not emotionally manipulating Marinette. He is showing her affection. I guess we're demonizing showing our loved ones any sort of affection now...

Yeah fr, people will throw around all kinds of words istg. This is the definition of love bombing:

Love bombing is a tactic in which someone “bombs” you with extreme displays of attention and affection with the intent to manipulate you. Although being showered with "love" can seem positive at the beginning of a romantic relationship, love bombing can lead to gaslighting and abuse. Psychologists caution it might be a tactic used by a narcissist or sociopath in an attempt to control you.

Anyways, Adrien doesn't do this. In fact, this is what Gabriel does to Adrien. From this article:

In a relationship with a pathological predator, love bombing is combined with intermittent reinforcement to create a sense of instability and longing in the victim. Intermittent reinforcement (in the context of psychological abuse) is a pattern of cruel, callous treatment mixed in with periodic affection. The abuser hands out rewards such as affection, a compliment, or gifts sporadically and unpredictably throughout the abuse cycle. This causes the victim to perpetually seek their approval while settling for the crumbs of their occasional positive behavior.

This is exactly what Gabriel does. Whenever it seems like Adrien is rebelling against him because he is tired of Gabriel's neglect, Gabriel will offer him a little concession. Adrien is rebelling against him? Fine, let him go to school. In this way, Adrien doesn't rebel against his father anymore, and Gabriel can keep him under his control, because now Adrien will continue to believe the best of his father and will continue to try and earn his love. Another example is in Gorizilla. Adrien gets tired of Gabriel stopping him from seeing his mother's movie, and sneaks out. Later, Gabriel allows him to watch the movie, and throws in a little bit of gaslighting in there, essentially blaming Adrien for not being open with him and making him feel guilty, when it's his own fault his son didn't open up to him, which is because he's a neglectful asshat.

This is Gabriel and Adrien's relationship. Adrien stays with his father and tries so hard to please him, because Gabriel has instilled in him that love is something conditional that is to be earned. And whenever it seems like Adrien is breaking away from this mentality, Gabriel will do something "nice" for him, which will bring Adrien right back, because he's an abused child who wants to believe the best of his father and wants his love and affection.

Again, to quote the article:

As author Adylen Birch writes, “Creating fear of losing the relationship and then relieving it periodically with episodes of love and attention is the perfect manipulation.” Much like the way a gambler at a slot machine becomes addicted to playing the game for a potential win despite the risk of major loss, a victim in the abuse cycle can become attached to the idea of getting a return on their investment in the relationship despite the toll it takes on their well-being.

There's actually an example of this in the show. From Illusion:

Adrien: Speaking of which, Dad, I'm not really comfortable with having my face on all these rings. That's actually why I didn't want to be a model anymore, to avoid that. Do you understand? Gabriel: Of course, I understand, my son. But that's the point; it's just an image, it's not you! And since this image frees you from your obligations, we, the Agrestes, are able to spend more time together. But if you'd rather everything went back to the way it was before, just say the word. Adrien: (wears the Alliance ring on his index finger) You're probably right.

Gabriel even explicitly says what he's doing, which is holding the threat of going back to their previous relationship over his son's head to emotionally manipulate him. To refer back to the article, he creates the fear of losing the relationship in Adrien, and then makes a big deal of showing that he cares so much about Adrien and his future, and he makes him breakfast. This is love-bombing. And so, Adrien goes along with whatever Gabriel wants as long as he doesn't lose it. And so, he continues to do what Gabriel wants, which is to accept the Alliance rings and his image being used in ways he doesn't want. And true enough, Adrien goes back to defending his father after he finally worked up the courage to confront him for his shit in the beginning.

Adrien: My father? But Nino, he's changed, he's making an effort, and it's the first time he's coming to school!

I could go on, and there are several examples of this in the show, but then we'd be here forever. But I highly recommend that article. I just read it, and it is literally Gabriel and Adrien, oh my god. It's very informative and I think we should all be aware of this.

But anyways, back to your question anon (sorry for the tangent). Adrien doesn't love bomb. Adrien is just very affectionate. He doesn't withdraw affection from anyone, he doesn't make them settle for scraps. He doesn't try to manipulate anyone, he doesn't gaslight anyone, he doesn't try to make them seek his approval. Adrien is always kind and loving towards everybody he cares for.

In fact, Adrien does the exact opposite. He fawns over others, and he tries to earn their love and approval. This is because of Gabriel's abuse. And to accuse him of love bombing is so disgusting. Honestly, people just throw those words around like candy. But then again, I've seen what the side of the fandom that might have said this usually says, and it's usually the same victim-blamey abuse apologist rhetoric, so I'm not even surprised.

Thank you for your ask!

[bananagreste]

ooh, la, la it’s ladrien ↳ 65/?

[anna-scribbles]

h-how do you ever finish any of your work? genuine question because you seem to be productive despite your agreste syndrome and I need to learn your ways. but also how do you ever finish any of your work

unclear. last night i stayed up and finished a report worth 25% of my grade at about 5am, arrived on time for my 9am lecture, and spent about half of it zoned out while thinking about seventeen year old emilie agreste. and i was one of the most active participants in the class discussion

[eldritch-ace]

So if season 3 is actually in order and Reflekdoll is that early, does- does that mean Adrien was the first one to purify an amok in the narrative?? My poor boy, I am so so sorry your first time as mister bug is gonna be way overshadowed by that. Félix will go on multiple rants once he figures out who mister bug is, Adrien will be having another crisis.

[itsawritblr]

Gorizilla Part 4 (end).

All the parts come together, the life-size cardboard cut-out, the helmet, the tenacious superfan who is not the jerk we thought he was at the beginning.  His devotion and loyalty to Adrien is what helps save him.

Ladybug and Cat come up with a clever plan, showing that, though a ditz at school, Marinette is every inch a superhero to match Hawk Moth.

In the last scene we get Gabriel actually trying to be a father.  And we get his velvety, purring voice. *sigh*.

This episode’s writing is so well done, with what at first appear to be random bits weaving together into important plot points that make sense.  If only the series had stayed this good!

[ilikekidsshows]

In retrospect do you think there were any major red flags in writing up to the S3 finale of ML that foreshadowed its downfall in future seasons or do you think it all started in what you call the retool era (S4&5).

I’d say we’re dealing with a lot of “recurring issues” and some actual red flags. As I’ve stated repeatedly, the New York Special basically has the same Ladynoir break up and get back together plot as season four, and it was bad in the New York Special and absolutely horrid in season four. Also, the show’s worst episodes, ‘Reflekdoll’ and ‘Kwamibuster’ reflect a lot of the writers’ more asinine writing decisions in the future. The New York Special and some season three episodes are, therefore, definitive red flags.

But yeah, the earlier seasons had some warning signs too. Adrien/Cat Noir is presented first and foremost as a lust object of Marinette’s. We don’t see Marinette appreciating Adrien as a person until ‘Origins’; before that point she’s only literally staring slack-jawed and drooling at Adrien’s photoshoots and ads. Marinette is also destructively jealous of Adrien from the point Lila is introduced, and she only escalates with the introduction of Kagami. Marinette’s objectification of Adrien has been in the show since its inception, considering that the original Adrien, thePV Félix, is presented in promotional materials as sullen, rude and unpleasant, meaning Marinette’s infatuation was most likely purely based on his looks. So, like, the sexism of heterosexual romance but the genders are just reversed is part of the show’s DNA.

Another important thing to note about the series is that our only Adrien-focused episodes, that focus on Adrien having some kind of a development arc with his feelings where he gets to be proactive about them instead of the show just showing the audience “oh, he’s upset now” or “oh, he’s happy now” and don’t still give Marinette a lion’s share of the focus and emotional weight, are ‘Copycat’ and ‘Santa Claws’, maybe arguably ‘Gorizilla’, though I suspect the Marinette trying to score a date segment takes up far more time than the important reveal of Adrien’s family problems. The writers have always prioritized Marinette’s feelings over Adrien’s.

Adrien’s contributions on the superhero side of things have also been getting downplayed since the start. He’s the more likely target of slapstick, with the show pilot ‘Stormy Weather’ having him get treated like a ping pong ball. He’s the one getting brainwashed or taken out by the Akumas frequently. And he’s the one the heroes’ shared mentor ignores completely. In ‘Syren’, Fu had to be strongarmed into meeting Adrien once, and then he never made an effort again. This is also the episode where the idea that Adrien shouldn’t complain about being treated as less than and should just patiently wait for whatever scraps he gets as a member of a team is first introduced. However, this episode was easily overlooked at the time, because the episode, in the end, had Fu meeting with Adrien, seemingly setting up Adrien being treated more equally, a promise that was never followed up on.

Now, though, I’d like to say why these things went unnoticed as red flags and just being some recurring issues. The thing about Adrien’s objectification was this: the people watching thought it was a joke and a sign of Marinette’s immaturity. It was presented humorously, and Marinette started being less creepy at Adrien once she became more able to talk to him. This, coupled with other lessons Marinette had about clear communication with her loved ones, like ‘Weredad’ and ‘Befana’, made people believe Marinette was going to have a character arc to grow into a more mature person who’s able to treat Adrien like a human being. This is another promise the writers never followed up on when they then retconned Adrien into a RealDoll and made him Marinette’s therapist to make sure Marinette never has to treat Adrien normally.

As for the lack of Adrien focus, the reason it went unnoticed was actually the lesser focus on other heroes, and the deeper emphasis on the superhero action than in S4-5. There were less heroes and more time spent on Akuma fights, which meant more screen time for Adrien as Cat Noir at least. When Cat Noir is the primary character Ladybug can interact with, he gets to give plenty of input on things and when he’s Ladybug’s only backup, he gets to do more things in battles. And then we add to that the bigger time the earlier seasons spent on Akuma fights, we get more of both of those things. It’s simple math. So, while Adrien didn’t get to contribute decisively a lot, he did get to contribute. Also, they had this thing where Adrien’s eclectic studies would be used to have Cat Noir give Ladybug highly specific but useful information.

Basically, yeah, there were some red flags and other lesser but still worrying stuff too.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

ML What if:

(What if Movie! Gabriel was the villain in the Show?)

Now to those that have seen the movie and the show.

All the powers and rules of the show apply. The only difference is Gabriel’s Personality is the same as the one in the movie.

(How much will be different)

____________________________________________

-So for starters, I don’t think this version of Adrien would not need to sneak out to try and go to school. Since this Gabriel never became a hermit. He actually threw himself into his work instead of isolating himself. And as such Adrien would not have the hang up of being trapped in his home. Or if he does it’s more from empathy than actual restraint.

-But even so, Adrien is still a good boy and still ends up tested by Fu and gets approved.

-I think Adrien models but isn’t the only model. I can see Adrien being the one to ask as a way of spending time with his father since his mother passed, and Gabriel not refusing. At least in photos he could see the boy smile.

-Everything with Marinette in origins is identical.

-Gabriel finally caves into his loneliness and desperation and uses the butterfly. Where he learns the rules and how they work. Since this Gabriel had seen the peacock in action he was worried that using the butterfly would yield the same result, but Nooroo assured him that it’s only with broken miraculous.

-Now, Gabriel would still akumatize stoneheart and start the incident that would bring out the ladybug and cat miraculous.

-Gabriel is still lost in grief and even though he mainly used criminals in the film, he would probably use people anyway (see the movie!stoneheart)

-This Gabriel would probably still pull a lot of the stunts show Gabriel would pull. Theatrics included.

-So I do think show Origins would be relatively the same.

-Honestly most of season 1 would be the same. I can see Gabriel setting up his fashion designer contest in Mr.Pigeon.

- Movie!Gabriel would remember his sons birthday and have Nathalie get him a gift while he’s focused on work.

-Nino never meets Gabriel face to face as he is far too busy to meet him. Thus bubbler.

-Gabriel never shows up on the show to get Simon says akumatized, but likely sent a response insulting enough it akumatized him.

- Gabriel would send a text or call to have Adrien leave an area that he knew an akuma was in. Something he did in the movie.

-I would say close to season 2 we start seeing Gabriel look disheveled. I also see Movie! Gabriel not akumatizing a baby. Mainly because it would not help his situation.

-Gabriel wouldn’t Akumatize Kagami since she was after Adrien, which would be a no no.

-Gorizilla wouldn’t happen because This Gabriel would never put his son in harms way intentionally. Plus I would say this Gabriel wouldn’t have noticed the ring on his sons finger as he is avoiding his boy more out of his own emotional survivors guilt.

-Gabriel would akumatize Style queen, but he would be there in person initially. He would be the one that got turned into a glitter statue protecting his son.

-After this. Gabriel questioned if this was the right call? He put his son in danger? Was it right?!

-And I think unlike Show Gabriel, Heroes day would be his last Hurrah, but he would be much more brutal. And that result.

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

To clarify, this does not mean your favorite episode, but rather, your favorite episode of this ship. Because this had to be whittled down so much to fit into the amount of spaces available for a poll, this doesn't include every Ladrien episode, so feel free to click other and put your episode in the tags!

This is for the purpose of satisfying my curiosity of ship trends in ml, so please share for a larger sample size!

Ladynoir poll

Adrinette poll

[piromina]

WOW Gabe you really disappointed me today

I mean not that he doesn't usually dissapoint me but...

I'm honestly surprised he was able to make the connection between adrien and chat

[bananagreste]

ooh, la, la it’s ladrien ↳ 66/?

[purrincess-chat]

ML But Make It More Ladrien

Okay, so but since there was an almost kiss in Simon Says, what if we got Ladrien secret dating in s2? Pre-reveal Ladrien dating in Riposte, hello?? Gorizilla?? Eventually, Ladybug has to break up with him for his safety, then he can move on to Kagami or whatever but think of the possibilities!

"Cat, you just think it's a crime that Ladrien is the only side that hasn't hugged or kissed yet."

[princess-of-the-corner]

So I've read through your ml posts and you seem to dislike the sentimonster theory. Valid, obviously, but I don't know/remember the reason? So I'd like to hear it - if it's because it doesn't make sense, because you don't like the concept, or literally any reason at all. And if it's a reason like logic, what would it take for you to like the concept? Again, it's completely valid if you don't like it at all for no explainable reason, I'm just curious because I'm not opposed to the theory and also I like your writing and what I understand/know about you as a person so I'd like to know why you feel the way you do :D

So! My issues with the Sentimonster Plot have to do with the execution, not the ideas. The ideas I think could have been solid if given proper support!

Let's focus on the downsides first:

The plot holes! There's a lot. Off the top of my head:

Adrien, in the first three seasons, was directly disobeying Gabriel's orders. Him being rebellious was such a big character trait that his introduction in Origins was him disobeying Gabriel's orders! Compare that to Season 4/5, where he does not disobey, where he follows orders. While you could argue that 'oh Gabriel just didn't use the Amok before!', why didn't he when he's clearly comfortable doing so later?

How do Gabriel and Nathalie not know that Chat is a Sentimonster? Though it is later retconned into them only being able to sense the Amok, in 'Feast' Nathalie clearly senses the Sentimonster. (I have gone on a tangent of how she had to have sensed the Sentimonster, not the Amok, because if she sensed the Amok then her knowing that Feast is a Sentimonster is a large leap in logic)

Why didn't Gabriel use Adrien's Amok in either 'Gorizilla' or 'Chat Blanc'? Even if Adrien managed to circumvent those orders through loopholes, that could have been utilized!

Adrien has been hit with Cataclysm before. His reaction was what we see from Humans, not from Sentimonsters.

While Felix being a Sentimonster was mildly foreshadowed, Kagami being a Sentimonster came out of nowhere.

There are other things though!

For one thing, there's the fact that this came with saying that all Sentimonsters are Sapient Beings. Not only does this seem unlikely given how..... not Sapient most act, but it adds in horrifying implications as that jacks up the series' on-screen kill count.

It also wasn't set up well. Not even with the plotholes, but because there was no buildup. Sentimonsters weren't even introduced until the last few minutes of the Season 2 finale! And we didn't start getting hints to Adrien being a Sentimonster until /maybe/ the end of Season 3. I compare this often to other kids' shows with twists like Steven Universe or Gravity Falls, where the twists are foreshadowed as early as the first episode.

Given the fact that we currently don't have any way to truly free a Sentimonster from the Amok's control, I do not like the narrative there. Even if Adrien is given his Amok, there's always that possibility of someone else controlling him. It would be much more satisfying if he's freed from it, whether it be by Maribug saving him or by him going all Ella Enchanted and giving himself the order to not listen to orders. But even that latter one has been proven to not work. Not to mention that, even if he manages to hold on to the Amok, the Peacock User could just dispel him in a snap.

Another thing I have with it is a more biased note rather than a criticism of Canon, but I don't like how casually the Peacock can create Sapient Life. I personally feel that the act of creating Life, even accidentally, should be a difficult process that takes time and energy and even a little danger. This maaaaaay be because I came from FMA:B. So ya know. But I feel that the Peacock casually creating Sapient Beings is too OP, and it should be nerfed by either being unable to do that, or by the Sentimonsters having /potential/ to become real, but not by default.

Now! That said!

I do like the /theoretical/ idea of the Sentimonsters! While I criticized the version in ML, I do love the idea of Sapient Life coming from some non-Sapient source! Whether it be Cloning, AI programming, some sort of Homonculus, or even just going full Velveteen Rabbit, I love that. Bonus points for the 'how do I know I'm real/alive/have emotions/etc' angst! I also do like the idea of Adrien being controlled in some way, but I want him to be able to fully break free.

So ways to fix it:

Foreshadow this earlier. Firstly would be introducing the idea of Sentimonsters at some point very early on. Mention them and let us learn more, so that we could match it to Adrien's behavior. Speaking of! Have Adrien follow Gabriel's orders more! If you want him to still be rebellious, have him be sneaky! Use loopholes and wordplay to let him say '/technically/ I'm doing what I was told!'.

Have Gabriel utilize the Amok in times where he suspects Adrien of being Chat Noir. Adrien could still utilize loopholes here to get out of it! Like Gabriel orders him 'Tell the truth, are you Chat Noir?" and Adrien, using the logic of how he's not Chat Noir right now(aka: not Transformed) says 'nope!'.

Give a reason that Nathalie and Gabriel can't sense Chat being a Sentimonster through the Peacock. Either Canon's retcon of 'only sensing the Amok' or something like 'being Transformed muddles the signal'.

So on and so forth.

Fix it so that Adrien (and Felix and Kagami if you're keeping them all) is unique compared to the other Sentimonsters. Whether it be because he was designed to be Sapient, or because something else was added/done to make him Real, have that. This would free us from the fucked implications of Maribug's killcount.

And then give us the freedom! Again, I'd prefer something Ella Enchanted-esque. But if you have Ladybug's Cure do something or drag in the Eagle Miraculous, it's fine.