#Marquess of Dorset

[edwardslovelyelizabeth]

It is said that Elizabeth Woodwell's son and brother took a lot of money from the treasury before Edward IV passed away?

The story comes from a single contemporary source: The Usurpation of Richard the Third by Dominic Mancini. After discussing the French raids against English ships following the death of Edward IV, Mancini notes that on the day before Elizabeth Woodville went into sanctuary, Edward Woodville (her brother) had put out to sea as captain of a fleet of twenty ships. As Mancini tells it, “in the face of threatening hostilities, a council, held in the absence of the duke of Gloucester, had appointed Edward: and it was commonly believed that the late king’s treasure, which had taken such years and such pains to gather, was divided between the queen, the marquess [Thomas Grey, Elizabeth's son], and Edward.”

Mancini doesn't state that the story is true or that he or anyone else witnessed it happening. He says that "it was commonly believed" measning it was a rumor he reported on, nothing else. As to the large summs of money Rosemary Horrox in her examination of the financial memoranda of Edward V’s reign has concluded that there was very little treasure to be divided as a result of two years war with Scotland.

If Richard himself believed that Elizabeth or her kin were in the posession of any valuables from the treasury he would have requested it to be returned. He was actively seizing any Thomas Grey's assets (Simon Stallworth reported that “Where so ever can be found any goods of my lord Marquis is taken.”) and on May 7 the Archbishop of Canterbury ordered the sequestration of Edward IV’s goods, jewels, and seals, so it's highly unlikely to think that if Elizabeth was in possesion of any stolen goods she was having with her in the sactuary Richard would't issue an offical request for her to return those goods. Whatever that rumor neither Elizabeth nor Thomas Grey or Edward Woodville were ever offically accused of taking anything from the treasury by Richard or requested for the goods to be returned.

[blackboar]

Did Thomas Gray ever say something like "We don't need the king's uncle …"? Did Edward IV of England really ask Thomas Gray and William Hastings to reconcile before he died?

According to one chronicle, he did say that. That shouldn't be unbelievable, considering it was the Woodville plan to reduce Gloucester's power as much as possible. The same goes for Edward IV trying to reconcile his entourage.

[cinemaocd]

The ruins of Tilty Abbey, Essex

In an Essex field not far from London's Stansted airport, lie the ruins of Tilty Abbey, one of the victims of the Dissolutions of the 1530s. Diarmaid MacCulloch writes about Tilty as an exception to Thomas Cromwell's usual policy of closing the smallest, most impoverished houses first. Tilty survived the first round of closures because, MacCulloch implies, it was also the retirement home of one of Cromwell's widow friends, "ladies of a certain age," for whom he did favors over the years. Her name was the Marchioness Dowager Margaret Wotton and she was apparently fond of the monks--there were only seven of them and saw them as a comfort in her old age. MacCulloch writes that this was a common arrangement for widows of the gentry, to take a house near or on the grounds of an abbey. Of course, this technically violated the policy that forbade female visitors in monastic precincts. Cromwell's nephew Richard saw to it that the Marchioness kept the house on the abbey grounds well into the Elizabethan era, though the abbey itself was surrendered to the crown in 1536.

Cromwell's connection to the widow, was that her late husband, Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset, was his former employer. Cromwell had worked for the family before he had worked for Cardinal Wolsey. Cromwell was at the center of a web of alliances based in Kent, including Anthony St. Leger, who Cromwell made Lord Deputy of Ireland, perhaps in return for his assistance in these early years. St. Leger was a relative of Margaret Wotton, another strand in the web.

[isabelleneville]

THE MATERNAL LINE OF QUEEN JANE GREY

Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Duchess of Bedford and later Countess of Rivers, she was the daughter of Peter I, Count of Saint-Pol. (as portrayed by Janet McTeer in The White Queen) Elizabeth Woodville, Queen Consort of England and Lady of Ireland, she was the daughter of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl of Rivers. (as portrayed by Rebecca Ferguson in The White Queen) Elizabeth of York, Princess of England and later Queen Consort of England and Lady of Ireland, she was the daughter of Edward IV, King of England and Lord of Ireland. (as portrayed by Jodie Comer in The White Princess) Mary Tudor, Princess of England, later Queen Consort of France and then Duchess of Suffolk, she was the daughter of Henry VII, King of Ireland and Lord of Ireland. (as portrayed by Sai Bennett in The Spanish Princess) Frances Brandon, Duchess of Suffolk, she was the daughter of Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk (Second Creation). (as portrayed by Anna Chancellor in My Lady Jane) Jane Grey, Queen of England and Ireland, she was the daughter of Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk (Third Creation) and Marquess of Dorset. (as portrayed by Emily Bader in My Lady Jane)

[dailytudors]

FRANCES GREY, DUCHESS OF SUFFOLK, MOTHER OF A QUEEN

Born Frances Brandon, named after St. Francis of Assisi but also in honour of the King of France, Francis I, who was once the stepson-in-law of her mother and who had granted the marriage of her parents. Daughter of Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk and Mary Tudor, Princess of England and Dowager Queen of France, she was the eldest daughter of her parents' union and after the death of her brother their eldest child. Sister to Eleanor Clifford, later Countess of Cumberland. She had two full brothers one elder and one younger, who did not reach adulthood. By her father, she had four half-siblings, like her full brothers her younger brothers did not reach adulthood. Granddaughter of Henry VII, King of England and Elizabeth of York, Queen of England. Making her the niece of Henry VIII, King of England and per the Act of Succession 1536 the first person in line for the English throne outside of her uncle's marriages, as her mother's heirs took precedence over her Scottish cousins who were through her aunt - the elder of Henry VII's daughters - Margaret, Queen of Scotland's line. Her first marriage was to Henry Grey, initially Marquess of Dorset who later acceded the Dukedom of Suffolk after her father's death. Henry Grey was related through their common ancestress Elizabeth Woodville, Queen of England, Henry through Elizabeth's first marriage and Frances through her second. Her second husband was Adrian Stokes, the Master of the Horse to her cousin Mary I. Mother to Jane Grey, Queen of England for nine days (technically thirteen if you take the date of the death of Edward VI) who was made heir by Edward VI brushing over Frances's own claim. Also, the mother to Katherine Grey and Mary Grey, who at times during Elizabeth I's reign were considered viable heirs by the court. She had a loving relationship with her stepmother Catherine Willoughby and socialized in the same circles, including the protestant circles of her uncle's latter reign and her cousin Edward's reign. Beloved friend to her Aunt by marriage Catherine Parr, Queen of England who was also a good friend of her stepmother. Friend to her cousin Mary I, even after Mary had put her Husband, Daughter and son-in-law to death. Mary, Frances and their cousin - through their aunt Margaret, Queen of Scotland - Margaret Douglas were all close in age and brought up in the court of Henry VIII. Mary ended up on the throne, with Frances being the mother of a Queen and Margaret being the mother of a King Consort of Scotland and later the grandmother of James I, King of England.

[Anna Chancellor as Lady France Grey, in Amazon Prime's My Lady Jane]

[wonder-worker]

“Women's efforts to provide for their younger sons and daughters often brought them into conflict with their oldest sons. As heirs, eldest sons frequently resented provisions for their siblings that reduced or burdened their inheritances. Mothers' efforts to provide for their younger children were particularly threatening to their eldest sons when they were heiresses and had power to dispose of their own property, but men's provisions for their widows also caused trouble between women and their sons. Indeed, husbands' provisions for their widows usually represented a much heavier burden on the family's estates than their bequests to their younger children. Furthermore, widows' dowers and jointures often interfered with the heir's power over his inheritance for years... Disputes about the provision for widows and women's efforts to secure the welfare of their daughters and younger sons often became intertwined when women served as their husbands' executors.

All of these factors played a part in the bitter quarrel between Cecily, dowager marchioness of Dorset, and her eldest son Thomas, the second marquess. In 1504, Lady Cecily, who was her father, William Lord Bonville's, sole heir and the executor of her husband's estate, announced her intention of marrying Lord Henry Stafford,  the duke of Buckingham's younger brother. Stafford, who paid 2,000 to Henry VII for permission to marry her, obviously expected the match to be a profitable one. The young marquess was understandably concerned about the effect the marriage would have on his inheritance, given the legal rights his mother's new husband would acquire over her and her property. The dispute escalated until Henry VII intervened. The settlement they signed after appearing before the king's council permitted Cecily to continue as her first husband's executor despite her remarriage. Under the terms of his will, she would receive the income from the estates he wanted set aside to pay his debts. However, she would not receive her dower until the debts were paid and she had turned the property over to her son. In addition, the council severely limited Cecily's power to dispose of her own inheritance: after her death, she had to bequeath all of it to Thomas; until then she could grant only lands worth up to 1,000 marks a year, and then only for a limited period of years. The obvious intention was to prevent the marchioness from permanently endowing her new husband at the expense of her eldest son. Her rights as an heiress were severely limited in his favor and, in a larger sense, in favor of the institution of primogeniture.

  By 1522, Lady Cecily and her son were openly feuding once again, this time about provision for her younger children. As a result of Cardinal Wolsey's mediation, they signed another elaborate agreement. Each of them promised to contribute to the dowries of the marquess's four sisters, while in addition Cecily agreed to create annuities from her estates for three of her younger sons.”

- Barbara J. Harris, “Property, Power, and Personal Relations: Elite Mothers and Sons in Yorkist and Early Tudor England"

[lizzy-tudor]

From Princess, to Queen, to Duchess

Mary Tudor (March, c. 1496; London, England - June, 1533; Suffolk, England) was an English princess, the third wife of King Louis XII of France and one of the two sisters of King Henry VIII. Mary was also the grandmother of Lady Jane Grey, who would become titular queen of England for nine days in 1553.

Mary’s father, King Henry VII, betrothed her to Archduke Charles —later Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V — in 1507. In 1514, however, political tribulations caused King Henry VIII to renounce such engagement and arrange a match between his beautiful, charming and yound sister and Louis XII, the sick and french monarch of 52. Since Mary was already in love with Charles Brandon, the first Duke of Suffolk, she made Henry promise that after Louis died she would be allowed to choose her next husband.

The marriage with the french king took place on Octouber of 1514, and Mary performed her role as wife and royal consort with kindness and dedication until he died on January of the following year. Before Henry or the new King of France, Francis I, could use her as a pawn in another political arrangement, Mary secretly wed Suffolk in Paris, probably in late February. Henry VIII was infuriated at the news, but eventually the pair regained the king’s favour, with Suffolk paying him a large sum of money and perhaps with the help and intercession of Cardinal Wolsey.Mary and Charles had four children, two daughters and two sons: ⇒ Henry Brandon (11 March 1516 – 1522); ⇒ Lady Frances Brandon (16 July 1517 – 20 November 1559), married to Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset, and mother to Lady Jane Grey; ⇒ Lady Eleanor Brandon (1519 – 27 September 1547), married to Henry Clifford, 2nd Earl of Cumberland; ⇒ Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln (c. 1523 – March 1534).

Mary had enjoyed unprecedented freedom during her teenage years at her brother's court. Just fourteen when her father, Henry VII died, she spent the next five years almost completely unchaperoned, encouraged to participate in every event, celebration and feast, each planned to display the opulence of the english royal family. She shared Henry's exuberance for spectacle and, for some time, was one of the central ladies of the court, admired and sociable. Like him, she loved dancing, masques, and parties; they were also very close, with the princess being the apple of the king's eye. It's rumored that Henry's famous warship, the Mary Rose, was named after both his favorite sister and his only daughter with Catherine of Aragon.

Upon her arrival in France, Mary was proclamed, by the Venetian Ambassador, to be "handsome and well favoured, grey-eyed; slight, rather than defective from corpulence, and conducts herself with so much grace, and has such good manners, that for her age of 18 years—and she does not look more—she is a paradise." She was particularly admired by her contemporaries for her long red hair, which she had inherited from the Plantagenet lineage through her mother, Elizabeth of York, who had also been an celebrated beauty.

After her second marriage, the Duchess of Suffolk lived a quiet life in the country, retired from court, although she had been know to have attended the famous Field of the Cloth of Gold at Guines, near Calais, in 1520. Often referred to as the French Queen, she was known to dislike Anne Boleyn and in defiance of her brother was to prove a firm supporter of her sister-in-law, Catherine of Aragon, in the matter of Henry VIII's annulment of his marriage to his first wife.

Mary visited London for the last time to celebrate the wedding of her eldest daughter, Lady Frances Brandon, to Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset, in 1533. After suffering failing health for some years, Mary Tudor died on 25 June 1533 at the age of thirty-eight at Westhorpe Hall, Westhorpe, Suffolk, possibly of cancer. Henry VIII had requiem masses sung at Westminster Abbey for the repose of her soul and she was given a magnificent funeral, which her husband did not attend. Her body was interred at the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds. The Duke of Suffolk quickly remarried again, in that same year, to his fourteen-year-old ward, Katherine Willoughby (1519–1580), suo jure Baroness Willoughby de Eresby. Katherine had been betrothed to his eldest surviving son, Henry, Earl of Lincoln, but the boy was too young to marry, and Charles, to eager to add the heiress fourtune to his own.

[thedudleywomen]

On This Day (25 Aug) in 1540, Katherine Grey was born at Bradgate House, Leicestershire; the second daughter of Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset and his wife Frances Brandon.

Whilst her elder sister Lady Jane Grey was renowned for her intelligence and religious fervour, Katherine was known for her warmth and affection (in particular towards her pets), as well as her beauty. In Aug 1561, a heavily pregnant Katherine Grey was imprisoned in the Tower of London by a furious Elizabeth I after discovering her secret marriage to Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford 9 months previously. Whilst in the Tower she gave birth to two children (who were later deemed illegitimate), following a forced annulment of her marriage, due to the belief that it was part of a conspiracy against Elizabeth, given her previous claims to the English throne.

Katherine was later released from the Tower in 1564, although remained under house arrest, having been separated from her children. Weak and depressed, and refusing to eat, Katherine died on 26 Jan 1568 aged 27yo of consumption at Cockfield Hall, Yoxford; she was initially interred in the nearby chapel, although her body was moved to Salisbury Cathedral, and buried alongside Edward Seymour beneath a great monument dedicated to the pair, following his death in 1621.

[mea-gloria-fides]

Arms of The Most Honourable Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset.

[austxnland]

Nota: Los títulos nobiliarios son rsrvabls tant pr prsonaj como por familia; esto es, Lady X, una jovencita londinense de noble abolengo, podrá reservar el Ducado de Norfolk para su familia, sea para un NPC o un familiar que luego pondrá en búsqueda. Así mismo, para evitar confusiones, cada título tiene un apellido familiar adjudicado.

Títulos no libres a reserva (históricamente conferidos a los príncipes):

Duque y Duquesa de York (Duke and Duchess of York). Este título a menudo se otorga al segundo hijo del monarca.

Duque y Duquesa de Cornwall (Duke and Duchess of Cornwall). Reservado por tradición al Príncipe de Gales, el primer hijo del monarca.

Duque y Duquesa de Edinburgh (Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh). Históricamente otorgado a hijos menores del monarca, en nuestro caso al tercero.

Títulos libres a reserva:

Duque y Duquesa de Sussex (Duke and Duchess of Sussex). Familia: Mountbatten.

Duque y Duquesa de Norfolk (Duke and Duchess of Norfolk). Familia: Howard

Duque y Duquesa de Bedford (Duke and Duchess of Bedford). Familia: Russell

Duque y Duquesa de Devonshire (Duke and Duchess of Devonshire). Familia: Cavendish.

Duque y Duquesa de Northumberland (Duke and Duchess of Northumberland). Familia: Percy.

Duque y Duquesa de Dorset (Duke and Duchess of Dorset). Familia: Sackville.

Duque y Duquesa de Wellington (Duke and Duchess of Wellington). Familia: Wellesley.

Duque y Duquesa de Marlborough (Duke and Duchess of Marlborough). Familia: Churchill.

Duque de Rothesay (Escocia*)

Duque de Hamilton (Escocia*)

Duque de Buccleuch y Queensberry (Escocia*)

Duque de Argyll (Escocia*)

Duque de Atholl (Escocia*)

Duque de Montrose (Escocia*)

Duque de Roxburghe (Escocia*)

Marqués y Marquesa de Bath (Marquess and Marchioness of Bath). Familia: Thynn.

Marqués y Marquesa de Winchester (Marquess and Marchioness of Winchester). Familia: Paulet.

Marqués y Marquesa de Lansdowne (Marquess and Marchioness of Lansdowne). Familia: Petty-FitzMaurice.

Marqués y Marquesa de Salisbury (Marquess and Marchioness of Salisbury). Familia: Cecil.

Marqués y Marquesa de Northampton (Marquess and Marchioness of Northampton). Familia: Compton.

Conde y Condesa de Derby (Earl and Countess of Derby). Familia: Stanley.

Conde y Condesa de Essex (Earl and Countess of Essex). Familia: Devereux.

Conde y Condesa de Warwick (Earl and Countess of Warwick). Familia: Greville.

Conde y Condesa de Shrewsbury (Earl and Countess of Shrewsbury). Familia: Talbot.

Conde y Condesa de Carlisle (Earl and Countess of Carlisle). Familia: Howard.

Vizconde y Vizcondesa de Falkland (Viscount and Viscountess of Falkland). Familia: Cary.

Vizconde y Vizcondesa de Hereford (Viscount and Viscountess of Hereford). Familia: Devereux.

Vizconde y Vizcondesa de Gage (Viscount and Viscountess of Gage). Familia: Gage.

Vizconde y Vizcondesa de Melville (Viscount and Viscountess of Melville). Familia: Dundas.

Vizconde y Vizcondesa de Bridport (Viscount and Viscountess of Bridport). Familia: Hood.

Barón y Baronesa de Berkeley (Baron and Baroness of Berkeley). Familia: Berkeley.

Barón y Baronesa de Montagu (Baron and Baroness of Montagu). Familia: Montagu.

Barón y Baronesa de Byron (Baron and Baroness of Byron). Familia: Byron.

Barón y Baronesa de Leighton (Baron and Baroness of Leighton). Familia: Leighton.

Barón y Baronesa de Lovelace (Baron and Baroness of Lovelace). Familia: King.

[racefortheironthrone]

Wasn't there also a bit of a culling by the House of York of other Lancastrian claimants such as the Marquess of Dorset and the Duke of Somerset's beheadings in 1471 or the Duke of Exeter's drowning in the English Channel in 1475 and the Duke of Buckingham's beheading in 1483? Maybe some others? Those deaths were another boosting up for Henry VIII pre-Bosworth Field?

The deaths of John and Edmund Beaufort don't fit: John was killed during the fighting at Tewksbury and Edmund two days later because they had fought for Henry VI as the Lancastrian King of England and while they were both of the House of Lancaster, they were certainly behind Henry and his son Edward of Westminster in the line of succession and were not claimants to the throne at the time of their death.

Whether Exeter was actually assassinated or just fell overboard is a matter of rumor, but again he wasn't a claimant and if he was killed it was probably because he had fought for Lancaster even after marrying Anne of York, which Edward would porbably have considered a betrayal. Buckingham wasn't a claimant either; his rebellion was on behalf of Henry Tudor.

[richmond-rex]

We know that Henry VII spent a lot of money on jewelry, (a few thousand pounds at a time?), and that Elizabeth was also fond of jewelry. Is there any example of him gifting Elizabeth some jewels? Or some example of Elizabeth spending huge sums of money to buy jewelry?

Hi! It's true that Henry VII spent a lot of money on jewellery and plate, apparently even more than his predecessor, Edward IV. When he bought vast sums of jewellery, though, those items were intended for more than just himself. For one, they were also intended for his family — we know that the plate Henry VII purchased, branded with the king and queen's H&E monogram, also supplied the queen's household. But Henry's expenses were most of all institutional purchases. Those jewels the king acquired were also given to selected courtiers and even foreign ambassadors and rulers.

For example, Henry VII once gifted the queen's half-brother, Thomas Grey Marquess of Dorset, a ruby ring. In 1500 Henry VII paid £14,000 ‘for diverse & many Juells brought oute of Fraunce agenst the marage of my lorde prince [Arthur]’. We know that Catherine of Aragon and her ladies received part of those jewels during the festivities, as did other Spanish officials. Likewise, on the occasion of his daughter Margaret's marriage to the King of Scotland, ‘sertain juells, plate, and other stuff’ were bought for Margaret, her entourage and James IV at a cost of £16,000. Not only were the jewels and plate Henry VII bought meant to be gifted to multiple people and displayed in multiple palaces but they were also used as prizes and rewards at tournaments.

Those costly purchases are not very detailed, though smaller purchases usually were. We don't know for example how much a single ring cost Henry in those big purchases of 1500 and 1502 for the occasion of his children's marriages, but we know that in 1505 he paid Bartholomew Rede £8 for gold ‘made in Ryng[es] for the Just[es] at Riche[mount]’ (£5,327 in today's money). We also know for example that Henry VII spent £66 (£44,209 in today's money) buying gold for his wife in 1495, and on another occasion, in 1497, he deployed £31 (£20,764) ‘for juels’ for Elizabeth of York's use. These are rarer instances though, because usually what was written down was costly but undetailed purchases that he ordered in regular batches.

In contrast with the king's bigger purchases, Elizabeth of York's were intended for a more selected audience such as herself and her sons. Still, Nicola Tallis has noted that Elizabeth's sums spent on jewels in 1502-1503, at a total of £166 (£110,548 in today's money), were 'still lightly higher than those of Margaret of Anjou', and more than the evidence that we have for her mother's surviving expenses with jewels. Elizabeth of York employed several goldsmiths, including a gentleman named Lybart, a certain Henry Wurley, John Vandelf and Alexander Hove. Tallis noted that 'the employment of numerous goldsmiths by [Elizabeth of York] indicates that they played an integral role in their lives, thereby confirming that queens employed the services of goldsmiths on a regular basis. In a further sign of great favour, on one occasion Elizabeth of York made a gift of a buck to two of her goldsmiths, John Vandelf and Lybart'.

There are no gifts of jewels bought by Elizabeth to her husband in the entries from her only surviving financial accounts (1502-1503), but we know she bought gold to embroider the king's garter mantle in that same year, and we know that in 1497 Elizabeth of York garnished her husband's helmet with jewels, probably intending him to display them during his campaign in Scotland. Since her expenses from that year did not survive, we only know that Elizabeth garnished his helmet because Henry VII felt grateful enough to compensate her partially for her expenses. It is a true pity that her accounts from other years have not survived.

[blackboar]

What is the relationship between Henry VII and Thomas Gray?

It was a rather bad one. Their relationship was tainted from the start because Dorset attempted to make his peace with Richard III in 1484 and almost made it. It's still possible that the men Tudor sent to convince Dorset to go back to him forced him. Nonetheless, it's clear that Dorset understood that with Henry VII, there would never be a Woodville ascendency at court again. More importantly, Dorset had an alternative with his former ward, the Earl of Warwick. Hence, Henry VII never trusted his brother-in-law, jailed him during the Simmel rebellion and put him under tight control (bonds, fines and other guarantees) for the remainder of his life. So behind the formal loyalty and family link, there was a real tension between Henry Tudor and Thomas Grey.

Still, it's interesting to note that Dorset seemingly never attempted to support Perkin Warbeck, which shows that he was ready to stick with the Tudors if there wasn't a good enough alternative.

[edwardslovelyelizabeth]

Who are the people attending Elizabeth Woodville's funeral?Are they all her relatives?

Hi! Yes, her three daughters - Anne, Katherine and Bridget as well as her only son Thomas Grey with his wife and their daughter (Elizabeth’s granddaughter), her nieces and nephews, Cecily’s husband - Elizabeth’s son-in-law, Edward IV’s closest male relative Edmund de la Pole.

Mourners were soon arriving, however, three of her unmarried daughters arrived on Tuesday 12 June, Princesses Anne (born 1475), Katherine (born 1479), and Bridget (born 1480) and her daughter-in—law, Cecily Bonville, the wife of her eldest son and marchioness of Dorset. With them was an unmarried niece, Elizabeth, the daughter of Katherine Woodville, sister to the dead queen and dowager duchess of Buckingham, a grand-daughter, one of the daughters of her son the marquess of Dorset and yet another niece, Elizabeth, Lady Herbert in her own right as the only child of William Herbert, Lord Herbert and Earl of Huntingdon and Pembroke; and his first wife, Mary, another sister of the dead queen — the herald-narrator is apparently not aware that the sixteen year-old heiress had just been married in the king's presence on 2 June to his favourite, Sir Charles Somerset. There also arrived Lady Egremont, Dame Katherine Grey, and Dame Guildford, either the wife of Sir John Guildford or his son, Sir Richard, a family closely linked to the Woodvilles and Hautes. Part of the narrative seems to be missing at this point; it probably reported that these ladies knelt around the hearse according to their rank, while Dirige was sung. On Wednesday 13 June a mass of requiem was held while the three daughters knelt at ‘the hed’, their gentlewomen behind them. That same morning arrived Thomas, Marquess Dorset, the queen’s son, and Edmund de La Pole, son of the duke of Suffolk, the closest living male relative of Edward IV, Henry Bourchier, Earl of Essex, a nephew of the dead queen by her sister, Anne, John, Viscount Welles, who had married Cecily, the second surviving daughter of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, Sir Charles Somerset; the brand-new husband of Elizabeth, Lady Herbert and, last of the seculars, Sir Roger Cotton, Edward Haute, her second cousin through their common grandfather, Richard Woodville, Master Edmund Chaderton also came, once treasurer of Richard III and now chancellor to Queen Elizabeth of York.

from “The Royal Burials of the House of York at Windsor: II. Princess Mary, May 1482, and QueenElizabeth Woodville, June 1492.” by Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs

[unanchored-ship]

for the History ask game- asking for 1,3, 13, 14, 20,27, 28, 29, 30? - antebellumite

woahhhhhhh thank you for the ask!

1. Who's my fav?? CHARLES TALBOT DUKE OF SHREWSBURY!!!!

3. What is your country most infamous for in history? Well... America has uh.. there is a LOT of shit that has been done. Can't just name one. Slavery, displacement of Natives, massacres, etc.

13. random thing about random historical person(people) in random era. UH uH ujh least crazy England Restoration Era story: Charles Sackville and his pookie Charles Sedley pulled up to a balcony naked, mimicked very lewd things(i like to think they actually fucked[see: homosexual], but people think they were just 'demonstrating sex'), blasphemed😨🤓😤🥶🙏🙏, and drank a toast to king Charles with wine Sedley dipped his penis in.

14. why do I like history?? It's just... idk cuz it's like we'll never know the full story, their full person, every single detail of their life, their thoughts, who they met and who they didn't (but more importantly who they fucked and who they didn't) and I get to fill in all those blanks with either logical guesses or the craziest AU EVER??? But also because i get to learn about what made this country what made that country why is the government like this yada yada.

20. History crush? CHARLES TALBOT DUKE OF SHREWSBURY LETS GOOOO!! HE IS SO GIRLFAILURE 😤😤

27. Fav What If? I have too many but heres one: WHAT IF Frederick the Great did not get his ass saved by Petey the third. Prussia fuckin loses. what happens then?

28. DREAM TEAM?? Oh my shit theres so mANY! Honorable mentions: The Great Triumvirate and the Cabal Ministry of Charles II of England. Okay but for my favorite gangbang they don't have a definite group in the history books except they do because William of Orange's ministry or whatever: Thomas Osborne 1st Duke of Leeds, George Savile 1st Marquess of Halifax, Charles Montagu 1st Earl of Halifax, Robert Spencer 2nd Earl of Sunderland, William Cavendish 1st Duke of Devonshire, Charles Talbot 1st Duke of Shrewsbury!1!!111!1, Daniel Finch 2nd Earl of Nottingham, Charles Sackville 6th Earl of Dorset, Edward Russell 1st Earl of Orford, Charles Mordaunt 3rd Earl of Peterborough, Arthur Herbert 1st Earl of Torrington, John Churchill 1st Duke of Marlborough, Henry Sydney 1st Earl of Romney

I know there are other fellas out there working for Orange but this is my gangbang

29. Great historical mystery im interested in???I know nothin about great historical mysteries 😭 idk man history itself is very mysterious since there's a lot we don't know.

30. Ask a question of my own hmmmm... Apart from the 21st century, which time period would you live in?

[sea-owl]

I know it's been probably years, but I saw the Ao3 story using Odysseus and was wondering if you'd ever continue adding more to his original AU where he was Pen's 1st suitor

That's a tough one. So some backstory onto why I never really continued that AU despite its popularity. Around the time I wrote that I didn't expect it to pop off as it did, and I really didn't expect it to pop off like it did when I transferred to AO3. I thought hey here's a fun thing and be done.

So around the time that I first created Marquess Odysseus Rose there was this trend of polin fanfics that would do that type of scenario where they would give Penelope another suitor whether it be an original character or one established in the show, or even one of the other brothers, with the promise of Polin HEA in the tags but then two or three chapters in and all of a sudden it changes to Penelope's other suitor. A good chunk of the fandom was also pissed at Colin at this point in time too so I honestly believe that played a role in the uptick of these types of fics. Or the suitor was so horrible you wonder how Penelope was alive. Also in some of those fics you could see Penelope's thoughts slowly being taken away as the fic continued on.

I didn't want to fall into that trend. Because to be honest I was never trying to make Colin or Odysseus worse or better than the other. Honestly with the way I've written Odysseus they would probably would be friends if Penelope's affection wasn't a factor. Actually I probably would have written it that way, polin gets married and the next day Colin and Odysseus are friends.

So as it stands right now most likely not. Odysseus will probably make his appearance in other fanfics, as I said before he's kinda my Dorset for polin. A generally good guy with possible romantic chemistry for Penelope, and ability to be friends with both Colin and Penelope.