#Knife of Dreams

[gl00mytuesday]

When the Wolf King carries the Hammer, thus are the Final Days known. When the Fox marries the Raven, and the trumpets of Battle are blown.

- Old Seanchan Proverb

[orbit-of-eternity]

Me: oh jeez another 90 page prologue for Knife of Dreams

Jordan: *Galad kills Valda in the 1st 15 pages*

Me: oh DAMN

[butterflydm]

Kinda jumping off a discussion I was having with @markantonys and @sixth-light the other day, I am really feeling excited about potentially bringing in most/all of the rest of our endgame love interests next season because I think they'll pretty much all benefit with the jump from book to screen.

(contains some book spoilers through Knife of Dreams)

I really enjoy a lot of the choices that the show has made so far, and I think they've done a lot of good set-up for the romances as well. To start with the characters who are locked in already, I really loved that Rand's three love interests all got to spend some extended time with (at least) one of his friends in season 2. Elayne being close with Egwene and Nynaeve is book canon, of course, but I like that the show essentially did that with Aviendha & Min too -- Perrin and Aviendha were so funny together, Mat and Min were also funny but had some great depth and angst. We got to see all three of them shine as individual characters before we got into any romance elements.

Especially with Min, I really loved the choice for them to take Min's self-reported past struggles with her ability and make it a current thing for her. It gives Min an active emotional storyline that is about herself and not centered around Rand, which is a big plus for me.

For next season, it's fairly well confirmed that we're getting Faile, and I think the show is set up to do really well with her:

a. the fact that we're not getting Perrin's internal narration will do so much to combat the 'constantly possessive and jealous' vibe that she often has in the books, because she frequently does not act on it but is just feeling something and if Perrin didn't basically have telepathy, no one would know.

b. Perrin's previous marriage provides a good reason for his relationship with Faile to be much more of a slow burn than it was in the books, and also provide background on why he'll be over-protective of her without falling into Jordan's "Women Are Precious Frail Flowers" trap (which Jordan did realize was a flaw in his writing -- we see him trying to interrogate it over the course of the series. But sometimes he would fall into the trap anyway).

c. And Faile and Perrin's relationship being more of a slow-burn would also make Berelain be a less ridiculous character (if they choose to still have her & her pursuit of Perrin). I'm also fond of the (from reddit!) speculation that maybe Berelain will be Graendal in disguise, which would have the potential of working really well to bring Graendal in sooner and give Perrin a proper Forsaken nemesis.

We are likely to get Gawyn, and if he's our main PoV for split in the White Tower, rather than it being Min (who is going to be in the Tanchico storyline with Mat, if that leak from a couple of weeks ago is true), then the audience will be more inclined towards being sympathetic towards him. We're also not likely to have the huge slow-down in pacing that happened in the second half of the book series, so it won't feel like Gawyn is just marching in place for forever. He's definitely one of the characters who suffers the most from how slowly the plot moves in The Slog.

Less likely but still very possible (especially if the leak about Mat is true) is that we may meet Tuon next season, and the show has done so much to make Mat & Tuon more plausible as a romance, even before we get into anything like character development.

Partly in the difference in Mat's background, in his relationship with his parents, and also in the way his dynamics with characters like Liandrin and Ishamael were played out.

Plus the set-up for what the show is doing with damane & sul'dam is promising in terms of Tuon because the show has established that the sul'dam are very weak channelers (as opposed to being learners), which means that Tuon actively beginning to channel wouldn't be plot-breaking in terms of her capabilities and would just affect her on a narrative level, which makes that feel like a much more likely path for them to choose to go with her and which opens up some avenues for some genuine character growth from her, which would be an exciting change from the books.

And, on a more subjective note, I feel like Jordan really fell down on the writing of Mat and Tuon, especially in CoT & KoD, so basically anyone else taking them over is probably going to be an improvement for me.

The show also really established a strong personality for Mat off the bat, which is something that Jordan was pretty inconsistent about. 'Mat' doesn't really gel as an individual character until the third book when he gets a PoV; and then he changes in several ways between the end of Winter's Heart and the start of Crossroads of Twilight (which is only a week later); I think that 'Crossroads' Mat could have been plausible (if depressing) as a character if Jordan had actually worked up to him over the course of CoT & KoD rather than him abruptly becoming this New Slavery-Neutral "both sides are valid" Mat in-between books (in WH he has an actual ethical & visceral objection to slavery, while in CoT & KoD, he only seems to object to the idea of being personally enslaved and views it neutrally if other people are enslaved). But I've talked about all that before, lol, so I will just say that it feels like the show already knows who they want Mat to be and has taken a pretty bold stand on the subject (re: being a Hero of the Horn), so I don't think we'll see them dumping his brains and empathy overboard between seasons.

So, yeah, I know s3 is still filming, but I am already anticipating it so much!

[wot-tidbits]

It took awhile for the pieces to come toghether.

[ihadafriendonce]

The message I want sent is this. My husband boops from World’s End toward Tarwin’s Gap, toward Tarmon Gai’don. Will he boop alone?

[mashithamel]

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 20, “The Golden Crane”:

“Kiss me,” she told him, hastily adding, “That wasn’t an order. I just want to kiss my husband.” A good-bye kiss. There would be no time for one later.

“In front of everyone?” he said, laughing. You’ve always been so shy about that.”

The woman was nearly done with Loversknot, and one of the grooms was holding Mandarb as steady as he could while the other two hurridly buckled the cinches.

“They’re too busy to see anything. Kiss me, or I’ll think you’re the one who’s—“ His lips on hers shut off words. Her toes curled.

[normallyiminsane]

Just when I was beginning to warm up to Tuon, she does that to Teslyn! Of all peo - Teslyn! -_-

[hope-deferred-inc]

Knife of Dreams

SPOILERS!!!!

Just finished reading the eleventh book. I took a bit of a break between 10 and 11. I am doing the same and reading another book between 11 and 12 (The Gathering Storm). Although, the book I am reading should only take a couple days (Arazan's Wolves). Anyway....

What in the world....

Why can't Rand just be? He has two horrible, non-healing woods that cause him pain ALL the time, dizziness and nausea every time he tries to embrace the power that he needs to save the world, friends who care more about power for themselves than supporting Rand in saving the world, and now, he has to lose a hand! He has to learn to fight all over again when the end of the world is only two books away!

Why didn't cleaning saidin help him? It helped everyone else. The entire world depends on Rand living to Tarmon Gai'don, so why couldn't he be healed of at least the stupid dizziness and nausea every time he embraces saidin. I just feel so bad for Rand.

Rand is one of my favorite characters. Perrin (although his actions in book 11 are beyond stupid. Let me just give the Seachans over 400 individuals that can channel - ugh. Fingers crossed it doesn't cause Rand any trouble), Loial, Thom, Lan, and Min (who is the only woman I can stand in the entire series).

I like the story and the above characters, but I just feel like it is dragging on for the sake of dragging on. And let's not talk about how the Forsaken now absolutely everything. I will finish the series though as I am curious about my favorite characters. My eyes are on finishing the Way of Kings next (Kal and Dalinar are my favorites so far as I am only about 35% of the way through).

[highladyluck]

What’s more fun?

That Robert Jordan didn’t Horse Girl correctly one single time, or that [inaudible muttering] thousand years in the future, we have successfully tamed the mighty zebra?

[shankblades]

9 chopper forged from 80crv2 amd walnut scale with brass pins

[helenaheissner]

I go back and forth on my favorite Wheel of Time character.

Wheel of Time book 11 spoilers:

In general tho it’s either Nynaeve or Elayne.

Reading an Elayne chapter rn where she’s coordinating a dozen portal-crafting magic users to deliver soldiers to appropriate spots below her city’s wall to fend off attackers while under siege, not even flinching as she rides a horse across the wall as arrows and fireballs soar all around her all while pregnant with Rand’s babies, no less!

So right now it’s Elayne.

One her wives snarking about how cranky a pregnant lady Elayne is all the while just clinches it.

[orbit-of-eternity]

Love the fact that the wind gust that has opened every Wheel of Time book so far this time knocks people down and topples tents like it's a Monty Python sketch.

[butterflydm]

I was watching some older Star Trek meta videos on youtube by Steve Shives - very good, would recommend - and something he said in an Odo video ("how Odo actually became Deep Space Nine's complicated conscience") really struck a cord with the issue that I have with CoT-onwards Mat. Steve calls it "the fantasy of the neutral observer" and he's describing it in the context of explaining how Odo and DS9 subverted it.

Basically, the fantasy of the man who lives by his own moral code and can be respected by both oppressor and oppressed because he "doesn't pick a side". Odo stands by justice and the law, so both the Cardassians (the occupiers) and the Bajorans (being occupied) can respect him.

But as Steve talks about - and what the episode of DS9 is about - is how placing yourself in the middle ground between oppressor and oppressed is not the moral high ground. The moral place is siding with the oppressed. Especially in the case of Odo, since he was enforcing laws... that were made by the Cardassians. And the episode is about exploring that idea and showing how Odo failed to actually live up to being a moral man by being so rigidly legalistic and how the fact that the Cardassians were willing to trust him was not a good thing, because he 'earned' that by enforcing their unjust laws.

But, yeah, it really made me kinda go 'ping' and go... yeah, that's the thing that vibes so wrong about Mat after Winter's Heart. Previously, he was a man who picked a side - he would complain and grouse and say that he hadn't, but it was clear in his actions that he supported the downtrodden and those who were in most need of his help. Siuan makes the comparison in book 3 about him being like her uncle, who went back into a burning house to save children, and that's absolutely Mat... until Crossroads of Twilight.

In CoT, though, Mat just really begins indulging in his self-pity but instead of that being coupled with him continuing to make the right choices and help people who need it despite his words to the contrary, he's just... lost up his own ass and pretty useless to everyone around him.

And once he emerges out of his ass, he seems firmly mired in this kind of fantasy of the neutral observer, where he can pretend that fawning over Tuon doesn't mean he's endorsing her worldview (because he basically just tries to pretend that she isn't a slaver except during the scenes where she rubs his nose in it and forces him to acknowledge it by her direct actions), where he treats the sul'dam and the Aes Sedai as if they're two rival football teams who just need to cool off in the showers after a tense game instead of oppressors and oppressed.

The way I put it before was "Mat has become a 'both sides have their flaws' asshole" but "fantasy of the neutral observer" works pretty well too. Mat pretending to himself that he's being a neutral observer only hurts the oppressed while helping out the oppressors (as we see in Tuon's own PoV, she is very much "take a mile if they give an inch" in terms of how she deals with other people).

Trying to stand in the middle means that you've stopped protecting the people who need protection.

In WH, Mat sees that people need his help and he goes out of his way to help them, endangering his own escape plan in the process. In CoT, he acts like Tuon is the most vulnerable person here*, despite her great position of power in her society, the way she continues to treat the people around her**, and the fact that she is literally walking around with her own personal slave at all times. He treats slavery as if it were a neutral moral topic that we should all just avoid talking about for the sake of being polite, and it's Setalle Anan (off-screen) who has discussions with Tuon about slavery. Morally, Mat acts like a coward in CoT & KoD and it's especially jarring because while he sometimes thought/talked like a coward in the earlier books, he acted like a hero.

(*this is a situation where maybe Jordan originally planned for Tuon to genuinely be vulnerable during CoT/KoD but then changed his mind when he decided to write the Outriggers, so we ended up with a situation where Mat still behaves as if Tuon is going through a character arc that doesn't actually show up on the page at all; there was a really weird disconnect in CoT & KoD about how the Seanchan were treated as a great threat in the female characters' plotlines but as an acceptable partner in the male characters' plotlines that, wow, really left a bad taste in my mouth about all three of our ta'veren dudes. But, yeah, that weirdness of "Mat acts like Tuon is undergoing character growth" when that supposed character growth isn't at all apparent in her behavior or her own internal narration is so baffling to me, and maybe even more so because so many fans seem to take Mat's words as gospel on every subject, even as they say that they love him in part because he's an unreliable narrator)

(**Mat watches as she abuses people under her power more than once during their time with the circus, with the two biggest examples being Tuon's abuse of her power over Egeanin/Leilwin, and the horrifically gross collaring scene that was the Definitive Moment that killed any possible interest I could have ever have had in Mat & Tuon as a pairing)

Now, one possibility is that all this was meant as Mat's 'dark night of the soul' and Mat was always eventually supposed to regain the morality that he lost during his attempts to court Tuon* (I guess in the Outriggers). The problem for me, as it is with Mat in all the books past Winter's Heart, is that the writing doesn't hold up. Mat's characterization takes such an abrupt turn in CoT that it damages any possible story that Jordan was trying to tell. Because I love 'dark night of the soul' stories! I love corruption arcs! I love characters being driven to choices that they hate making! Find all those things deeply fascinating. In general. But in the specific case of Mat Cauthon, the way that it was written was mostly annoying and infuriating.

(*the main pieces of evidence for this idea lie in the Jordan-dictated epilogue, specifically at word choices like Mat having 'forced' a grin at hearing that Tuon is pregnant; and the one-sentence about Mat for the Outriggers that we're aware of being him drunk in a gutter having lost everything, which doesn't sound like a 'happily married' royal living up the high life with his 'beloved' wife the Empress)

And I think a lot of that comes down to Jordan's impatience, which is something that we see a few other times in the series. Sometimes, Jordan wants to move the story along but the characters aren't there yet, so he just skips to them Being There, emotionally, without writing in the part that takes us from Point A to Point B (another example being how Rand & Aviendha are a great slow burn enemies-to-lovers romance... until it feels like Jordan got tired of writing the storyline and had Aviendha abruptly give in so that he could move along to the next plot beat).

Jordan needed Mat to get in line with his prophesied marriage in order to move the plot along, so he adjusted Mat's character to force him to do that. But he didn't have any in-text reasons for Mat's character to change so abruptly and Mat does his face-heel turn in the course of a single week off the page, and when we catch up with him in CoT, he is already treating the sul'dam and the Aes Sedai as two rival groups who need to be goosed into getting along, rather than the sul'dam having been actively torturing (two of) the Aes Sedai only a week ago -- Bethamin in particular was Teslyn's head torturer, who had just ordered that Teslyn's mistreatment be redoubled into order to break her more quickly and thoroughly.

Mix Jordan's impatience to get to the plot beats that he wanted to do between Mat and Tuon with his decision to have the Seanchan societal collapse happen in the (destined to never happen) Outriggers, and we get the mess of Mat's characterization in CoT & KoD because Mat is no longer allowed to have any kind of narrative effect on Tuon, so their relationship is entirely one-directional. And one-dimensional.

Mat's attitude at the beginning of CoT would frankly make a lot more sense if placed at the end of Knife of Dreams (aka after Tuon has worn him down to a hollow shell of the man that he used to be, rather than Mat just voluntarily becoming said shell in-between books), though I would still find it a very depressing storyline for him. Ultimately, I would have always been unhappy about Mat going from "a hero who doesn't believe he's a hero" (EotW-WH) to "immoral jackass who ignores the harm his wife does instead of standing up to her" (CoT/KoD) but the journey could have been much better written simply by being written at all instead of jumping immediately from Point A to Point B in between books.

Anyway, this is all about Mat in the Jordan books, because I do feel like the Mat-Tuon situation in the Sanderson books ends up being mostly a different kettle of fish. With some of the same issues, but Sanderson's take on them is different and, for me, actually worked better on the emotional side of things but had distractingly impossible logistics in terms of timeline and geography, and was probably equally bad on the 'letting the Seanchan off the hook for being invading slavers' side. So, it's a mixed bag but a different bag than the Jordan books.

[wot-tidbits]

[herenya-sedai]

To use Nynaeve as an example. She slaps and even punches Lan after they’re reunited in ACOS.

her values, her tendencies

But that is just one interaction

It’s a highly emotional situation -- she’s nearly drowned, broken her block, been rescued and reunited with Lan and he just told her he’s Myrelle’s Warder. And there’s some, uh, a hint of recognition from Nynaeve that her reactions have been neither appropriate nor mature, when she steps back and says ”We will talk this over calmly and rationally [...] As adults”.  

But from the insight we get into their subsequent relationship in KOD, it’s clear that the slapping hasn’t become a troubling pattern. She and Lan are both respectful of each other, concerned with each other’s well-being and considerate about when they exercise their “right” to give orders.

Also, Nynaeve had anger issues, but she's overcome her block and no longer needs to stay angry in order to protect herself or heal others. She’s got the love and support of a Warder-husband. It’s convincing that she becomes better at managing her anger and dealing with emotional situations calmly and rationally.

[tiredmoonslut]

FINALLY.

FINALLY THAT FUCKER'S DEAD.