#I'll also probably will never use this one cus the only concept i have for that is a short movie AT BEST I'm not really jdjdksks about it

[fragiledewdrop]

TOLKIEN, MYTH AND THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY

A week ago I wrote a post about my excitement in discovering just how much Tolkien took inspiration from Anglo-Saxon poetry.

I was so lost in my little over-emotional bubble that I was genuinely a little surprised when a few people expressed their disappointment in discovering that "The Lord of The Rings" wasn't wholly original. It makes sense, though, so I thought I'd address it.

These are @fortunes-haven ' s tags:

@sataidelenn already wrote an interesting reply, but I'd like to approach the question from a different point of view. Why? Because the first thing I thought about when reading this comment was how I myself have grumbled under my breath about having to wade through someone's "personal mythology smoothie", only I wasn't reading Tolkien. I was reading T. S. Eliot.

Now, I want to preface this by making it clear that I am well aware Tolkien is by no means a modernist. He did, however, write LOTR in England in the late 30s. He was part of the same culture, the same society, and above all the same historical context that produced "The Waste Land" and "Ulysses", and I think we should take that into account when we discuss his work.

Because by the time Tolkien published LOTR, Joyce and Eliot and Yeats had already discussed and applied the mythic method. Was Tolkien aware of their debates? Did he read and appreciate their books? I have no clue. It would take some research to find out, research I currently (unfortunately) don’t have time for. But I do not think it a stretch to suggest that Tolkien might have been moved by the same need that drove other writers to look back at myth, although in very different ways.

Why did Joyce and Eliot feel compelled to return to the narrative roots of mankind? Why did Yeats devote so much time to Celtic lore? Why did Tolkien write a new epic and base it on the Saxon world?

The answer is the same: because they lived at the start of a century that posed more questions than ever, but provided no answers; a century when time and the human mind and the very structure of matter had ceased to be solid, defined, a foundation to rely on; a century torn apart by brutal, inhumane, sensless war.

When you can't find answers in the present and the future is so uncertain it's laughable, you look to the past. Because the thing is, we can talk about "personal mythology" all we want, but myths are never personal. They are universal. They are tied to a specific cultural context, certainly, but they exemplify emotions, truths and tragedies that are common (or supposed to be common) to all humankind, beyond space and time. Myths are supposed to be eternal.

They are also a very effective shorthand to communicate rather complex concepts.

I can write five pages telling my girlfriend that she makes me feel safe, that she is something I've longed for and fought to gain, something I've dreamed about but that I'm scared I'll lose. I could, and I probably wouldn’t be able to convey exactly what I mean.

Or I could say "She is my Ithaca" and you would get it, wouldn’t you?

There are whole books that try to explain the symbolism behind "The Green Knight", but Eliot can offhandedly mention a chapel and he has basically evoked the whole original poem plus the centuries of scolarship that followed.

Tolkien could have had his characters recite long monologues about how they feel like their world has been lost. Instead, he has one of them sing a song by the campfire. An 8th century song, about a warrior in exile. He achieves in a couple of lines what could have taken him a whole book to convey, and he does it in a way that goes straight to the heart, even if we don't know exactly why.

And that's the thing: not all of us spend years researching myths and old poetry. Certainly we don't do it when reading LOTR for the first time, especially if that's when we are 13 or 10 or 8 years old. But we get it anyway. We know myths, especially Western myths, one way or another, as if through cultural osmosis. We understand myths from other cultures too- we may need a bit of context, but we do- and often we find that the bones of the stories are similar, across oceans and centuries.

That means that using myths as the building blocks of your story is an amazingly effective way to cut to the quick, to get to the core of what the narrative is aiming at.

I have seen so many people talk about the feeling they get when reading LOTR, or even just thinking about it: that nostalgia? That bittersweet hurt? That longing for something bright and lost, for a star or a jewel or a land beyond the sea? That, right there. That is what Tolkien achieves by telling stories inside stories, by having his words have a meaning and weight that we would associate with a bard or a preacher, not a fantasy writer. And, as I have discovered recently, it's almost exactly the same feeling you get when reading Saxon poetry.

It's almost as if he chose it on purpose, isn’t it?

That's not all, though.

As both people tagged above(and many others, myself included) have already written, Tolkien doesn’t just use myths as building blocks. He alters them.

Yes, Frodo's hero's journey is not typical. Yes, there are a lot of similarities between the last part of LOTR and the Odissey, but they are not quite the same.

That's because Frodo is not, and can't be, Ulysses. He isn’t a warrior crowned with glory and cunning who reconquers his home and that leaves it because a god has promised him peace if he does. He is a mutilated soldier coming home from the trenches, only to find that he no longer belongs in the home he has bled for.

Frodo is a new hero, for a new age (just like Ulysses was a new hero for a new age, which I rather think is one of the reasons Joyce chose him as the model for his novel. The Odissey was already subversive in and of itself. "An odd duck", as @sataidelenn put it.)

We have to understand just how traumatic WWI was. It's a shift, a break so immense that it changed society, politics, culture, family structures, the idea of hero and even of manhood. The Western World was not the same after 1918. Of course art changed too.

Would Tolkien have written LOTR had he not fought in that war? Probably. But it would have been a very, very different book. The way it deals with war, technology, trauma, peace and friendship-all the things we love about it- are direct fruits of that conflict. I think the way myth fits into it is, too.

I can understand being disappointed that not everything in Lotr is wholly new, wholly Tolkien's invention. It didn’t even occur to be to be, though, because I am used of thinking of it in these terms.

All the myths he uses- from Kullervo to Ulysses to Beowolf to medieval fairy tales- are means to tell a new story. They come back to life, and while we perceive how timeless they are, they end up telling us something that is rooted in time. A new English epic, yes, but very clearly an epic of England between two world wars. A 20th century heroic tale which offers a desperate, brave hope for the future. How can we not love it?

And look, I might joke about personal mythology smoothies to myself all the time, but the reason I keep reading and studying Eliot and Joyce and Yeats is that they do have something new to say, something amazing. You can take them or leave them, love them or hate them, but "unoriginal" is not an adjective you can, in good conscience, apply to their work.

I think, in a weird way, Tolkien is the same.

"In manipulating a continuous parallel between contemporaneity and antiquity, Mr. Joyce is pursuing a method which others must pursue after him. They will not be imitators, any more than the scientist who uses the discoveries of an Einstein in pursuing his own, independent, further investigations. It is simply a way of controlling, of ordering, of giving shape and significance to the immense panorama of futility and anarchy which is contemporary history. It is a method already adumbrated by Mr. Yeats, and of the need for which I believe that Mr. Yeats to have been first contemporary to be conscious. Psychology (such as it is, and whether our reaction to it be comic or serious), ethnology, and The Golden Bough have concurred to make possible what was impossible even a few years ago. Instead of narrative method, we may now use the mythic method. It is, I seriously believe, a step toward making the modern world possible for art." –T.S. Eliot, from Ulysses, Order, and Myth (1923)

[bloggingboutburgers]

Which Bob’s Burgers character do you headcanon as ace?

Honestly? None...

Actually, although a lot of people probably do it (and I definitely can understand why, this orientation is representation-starved as hell, and don't get me started on aromanticism), I don't headcanon characters as asexual. I'll only believe they are if it's been confirmed verbatum within the show (which means even "X from the team of creators confirmed they are as a twitter reply" doesn't exactly do it for me, cus if you're not saying it within the show, you're pretty much still leaving the door open for people to project any ("less boring") orientation on them anyway, right?).

The reason why I don't headcanon characters as asexual and will stick to whatever canon gives isn't just because I'm a very canon-driven person who likes to build on what a show already gives us – but also because I feel a lot of these characters people may headcanon as asexual/aromantic are probably, sadly, created by people who don't even know asexuality/aromanticism is a thing. Like they don't even have a hint of the concept in mind. That way, on the day they get sexualized or romanticized in canon, I won't feel too hurt, it'll just be... Y'know. Life.

That also means when something like Todd Chavez comes along (...which... only ever was Todd Chavez actually, if anyone ever saw something with the same level of commitment to creating an ace character as Todd Chavez please give me a call because I'm still looking and there's only ever Todd Chavez), I'll cry all of the happiest tears and be pleasantly surprised from the very bottom of my heart because I never, ever thought I would see something like that in my lifetime.

So y'know. I doubt Bob's Burgers will ever make an ace character, but I can live without it, I've lived without it in pretty much every other show anyway. At least, the way I see it, Bob's Burgers is doing something right by us aro people by making its most positive, highest level dipslay of love in its show between characters from the same FAMILY, not a couple (well, except Bob and Linda, but those are so good, so I'll give 'em a pass, whatever). Compare Tina's chemistry with her middleschool crush and her chemistry with her siblings. One makes me giggle at best and roll my eyes at worst, the other makes me smile consistently and has made me cry more than once.

[pesterloglog]

Roxy Lalonde, Calliope

Act 6, page 7694-7695

ROXY: hay!! hope you dont mind i pulled you off to the side like this

ROXY: away from other nice pals for a lil one + one rox & cal time

ROXY: i might b greedy as shit!

CALLIOPE: i don't mind at all!

CALLIOPE: i'm still getting Used to the concept of in-person socialization at all, let alone with many people.

CALLIOPE: and yes, yoU MAY be greedy, bUt if so, then so am i by the exact same standard. ^u^

ROXY: fffuck yes

ROXY: like a couple of friendship burglars pickin each others pockets all shifty eyed and lookin out for cops

ROXY: but also giggling i guess because that is in the spirit of the scenario in question

CALLIOPE: heheh. yes.

ROXY: i cant believe youre really here

ROXY: it hardly seems real!

ROXY: after all these years and how u were just like a mystery friend online and then how worried i was we might lose you for good

ROXY: but now......

ROXY: wow

CALLIOPE: i know!!!

ROXY: so u and jane and jade were hangin out?

CALLIOPE: yes!

CALLIOPE: it was great.

CALLIOPE: we drew and told stories.

CALLIOPE: i'd heard yoU died, so i was holding oUt some hope that yoU woUld show Up too...

CALLIOPE: and yoU did eventUally. jUst not the version of yoU i expected.

CALLIOPE: i never dared to think yoU woUld bring me this gift.

ROXY: well

ROXY: i swore i would

ROXY: and john kinda double swore he would help

ROXY: damn the kid is persistent

CALLIOPE: i like him.

CALLIOPE: he is easy to talk to.

ROXY: yeah!

CALLIOPE: i've read aboUt him, of coUrse.

CALLIOPE: the reality of someone standing in front of yoU is qUite different from what yoU read aboUt them in a text.

CALLIOPE: bUt then, i have no idea how accUrate anything i read is anymore.

CALLIOPE: i always believed i was in possession of the texts which decoded yoUr fUtUre, and i behaved toward all of yoU in that sly and knowing manner, avoiding "spoilers" and sUch.

CALLIOPE: that was probably presUmptUoUs of me thoUgh, in hindsight. i clearly didn't know that mUch.

CALLIOPE: i certainly didn't read anything aboUt my own involvement. i never coUld have imagined being here.

ROXY: you were still helpful though!

ROXY: you were the force in our lives that gave us hope that we could all get together some day

ROXY: going down that road has been craaazy and by no means a smooth ride

ROXY: im losin count of all the times it looked like everything was about to break or catch fire or actually DID break and catch fire resulting in loads of dismay

ROXY: but when you look back, every time things went to shit there was always something constructive about that turn of events

ROXY: something that was necessary for the good outcome to happen at all

ROXY: so whenever something stupid happens like some a-hole gets a bonehead idea to steal a ring and then everyone dies horribly and at the TIME u think ur just gonna curl up and cry yourself into weepy nonexistence

ROXY: maybe those arent even "bad" realities?

ROXY: maybe they are as important as any

ROXY: and so are all the experiences that u had in them and so are the experiences of everyone who died because you dont just get to say your experiences are more important or significant just cus you happened to be someone who survived longer

ROXY: i guess what im saying is

ROXY: im grateful you let me go on this adventure and not even in spite of the hardship it involved

ROXY: i just had a little time to think about it in the firefly nothingspace

ROXY: and i think all of it was good

CALLIOPE: i'm happy that i coUld play sUch a role in yoUr lives.

CALLIOPE: i don't know if i deserve mUch credit for these positive revelations aboUt yoUr joUrney thoUgh.

CALLIOPE: yoU are the one who's been on the adventUre.

CALLIOPE: i have barely taken my first step.

CALLIOPE: i spent all my life in my room, and then every moment in the afterlife cowering in fear.

CALLIOPE: it's only now that trUe participation is even a possibility.

CALLIOPE: bUt even so, i really doUbt i'll have mUch to offer.

CALLIOPE: my other self who i jUst released... i think she is poised to do something mUch more significant.

ROXY: what do you think shell do

CALLIOPE: i have no clUe.

ROXY: but she told u to live right

CALLIOPE: yes.

ROXY: by which i can only assume she meant

ROXY: yo live it UP girl

ROXY: like uh

ROXY: go shopping or something

ROXY: or rocket down the highway in a convertible with cash flyin out the back??

CALLIOPE: heh.

CALLIOPE: that is not the sort of sentiment i can imagine coming from her Under any circUmstance.

CALLIOPE: bUt yes, maybe something to the effect of encoUraging me to enjoy my existence, as commUnicated by a more typical, trUly asocial member of my species.

CALLIOPE: really, what i took from it was...

CALLIOPE: she is the "real" one, with all the power and relevance now, and i am the "spare". a civilian in a sense, like in a war.

CALLIOPE: and the only Use for civilians, from a militaristic mindset, are as those who live their lives in whatever completely irrelevant way they choose to.

CALLIOPE: they are the collateral at stake, the ones for whom the war is theoretically foUght, bUt whose lifestyles, choices, happiness and sUch, hold no concern whatsoever for those fighting on their behalf.

CALLIOPE: this i think is the mindset of cherUbs of her alignment. as protectors, it is the relationship they have with those they protect.

CALLIOPE: and so that is probably the relationship she believes she has with me.

ROXY: you make it sound like

ROXY: she is the legit callie

ROXY: and you are the afterthought

ROXY: like the one from the funky reality that didnt go right?

CALLIOPE: technically, her timeline was doomed, by her predomination alone.

CALLIOPE: even so, yes, it does feel as thoUgh my reality was the oddity.

CALLIOPE: cherUbs were never sUpposed to grow Up like me. exposed to other caring people, and learning from them.

CALLIOPE: it made me different, and Unfit to predominate. yet ironically, this was reqUisite for the timeline's sUccess.

CALLIOPE: and it was necessary for yoU all to begin yoUr joUrney as well.

ROXY: so this seems like

ROXY: an example of what i was just sayin actually

ROXY: the story of the two callies

ROXY: neither is really "more important"

ROXY: and your timelines cant really be described as the good one or the bad one

ROXY: there were good and bad things about both ways stuff went down and different qualities to the people you became

ROXY: her life sounds like it was harsh and lonely in its own way

ROXY: but it sorta paid off cause she got to beat her brother

ROXY: but then got arbitrarily punished for that outcome because it wasnt supposed to happen??

ROXY: and then finally u meet her and "free" her or something so she presumably gets to go off and do... something badass???

ROXY: then theres you

ROXY: who had probably an even more challenging upbringing gettin so hassled by your bro

ROXY: and he killed you i guess because the way the deck was shuffled he had the edge this time

ROXY: but the upshot was you got to have all these great friends who cared about you

ROXY: and it helped you become the nice person you are who means a lot to other people

ROXY: and now

ROXY: you get to live whatever kind of life you want and be completely free from all the crummy stuff you grew up with

ROXY: who cares if you arent as strong as her or dont have the wicked powers she does or some "important" mission to do

ROXY: you both came from perfectly legitimate realities and IMHO you are both equally valuable

ROXY: and both of those realities seem to be tied together

ROXY: she cant do her mysterious badass thing unless you make it all the way through your journey and free her

ROXY: and your reality was the thing settin the stage for this huge multiversal vortex of problems which after a kajillion fuckin EPOCHS she was always meant to resolve in some way

ROXY: and that doesnt mean your life was like... a means to an end in a big cosmic sense

ROXY: i think its more like...

ROXY: you ARE the end, or one of the ends

ROXY: you and me and everyone who made it and everyone who didnt

ROXY: so that means you dont have to be able to do a lot of super special shit to validate your identity as the real version of yourself

ROXY: the only validation you need is being who you are cause no one can be that person but you!

CALLIOPE: those are very inspiring things to hear, roxy.

CALLIOPE: i hope yoU are right.

CALLIOPE: bUt even so...

CALLIOPE: i think i woUld still like to be UsefUl.

ROXY: you can be!

ROXY: you can help me out

CALLIOPE: how?

ROXY: i know you arent god tier or anything or probably never did much to get in touch with your aspect

ROXY: but maybe that doesnt matter

ROXY: u are space right?

CALLIOPE: yes.

CALLIOPE: a mUse of space.

ROXY: sounds cool!

CALLIOPE: it is cool, i think.

CALLIOPE: especially having seen what i coUld have been.

ROXY: no but that potential has to be inside you somewhere

ROXY: actually

ROXY: its one reason why i wanted u to be with me here for a while

ROXY: aside from catch up a bit :)

CALLIOPE: what do yoU need me to do?

ROXY: nothin really

ROXY: just be here with me...

ROXY: while i try this

ROXY: idk why but i feel like your presence will help

ROXY: and if nothing else i just like having u here

ROXY: makes me feel better about trying to focus on this weird lil chore

CALLIOPE: bUt yoU think my aspect is relevant?

ROXY: maybe

ROXY: i think space is related to this in some abstract way i cant put my finger on

ROXY: i gotta make this egg see?

CALLIOPE: :U

ROXY: but it isnt really just an egg its this HELLA complicated egg in both its biological design and everything it represents for the future of an entire civilization

ROXY: and i dont have the genetic or chemical or molecular blueprints for it or anything

ROXY: i have to figure it out using... just thought

ROXY: like, ideas

ROXY: ideas that are really basic and live in this primordial sorta quasi-consciousness

ROXY: so i have to build the idea of this egg in some way before i do anything

ROXY: which means trying to grasp its reality and what it represents

ROXY: its like a funky little construct of biological propagation

ROXY: and i think that intersects with the nature of space

ROXY: at least as we have come to understand it

ROXY: the propagation of space is really just some profound cosmological feat of reproduction

ROXY: that is... a literally biological process right?

CALLIOPE: pretty mUch.

ROXY: so to make this egg

ROXY: as a rogue of void what im really doing here is something kind of insane

ROXY: you yourself told me once how id be able to do this crazy shit!

CALLIOPE: i did!

ROXY: ill be like... probing nothingness for an idea

ROXY: a pretty complicated idea in this case

ROXY: and

ROXY: pulling that idea from unreality

ROXY: so maybe if im right and a closer connection to the nature of space will help me locate that idea...

ROXY: almost like

ROXY: standing next to an antenna to boost the signal of that idea

ROXY: then maybe my chances will be better

ROXY: and hey

ROXY: even if not

ROXY: its just nice to have a friend nearby while u try to do something hard

CALLIOPE: ^u^

[kingsshilling]

Picked on from the hat a bit here but also genuinely interested, what’s each lads main love language?

now here's an ask that the second I got it I was equally as excited to answer it as I was deeply deeply afraid. we're going straight to read more with this one because you know I'm incapable of simply saying "this for bedwyr and this for éamonn, thanks!"

I'll be completely honest and say the concept of a Love Language is mostly new to me and I don't know if it applies to solely romantic relationships or like all forms of love but regardless neither of them have just one as far as I can see, and especially in the case of Éamonn it can be difficult to tell because he has so many issues with just about everything about himself - like in direct contradiction with one another he simulatenously loves and loathes to touch and be touched

on top of that he has so little experience in being close to literally anyone that you could say he's almost like emotionally stunted. he wasn't close to his family (even before his sister left they didn't know much about each other and his mother was.. Well.) so there was little in the way of love there, and he never really had close friends either... Emmet was the nearest thing to that he had and even he didn't really know Éamonn even if they'd known each other and worked together for years

and for obvious reasons he had never been involved with anyone romantically - physically yes cus he was a sailor/fisherman and has been around nearly every dingy port town & city in Ulster/Scotland/north west England but he wouldn't hang about particularly long & genuinely never harboured any real feelings for anyone he met (or at least if he did he would've pushed them down so far he wouldn't even be aware of them anymore), so Bedwyr's a brand new and literally petrifying experience for him

so after three paragraphs of "context" to get us to actually discussing the fucking question you asked.. because it's literally the only thing he really knows how to do and the only thing he Has been doing for most of his life, his main one would be acts of service - he wants to feel like he's useful to people so they might feel more inclined to keep him around, and as well as that he can tell himself that he's just doing it out of politeness and that there's no other motives there, be it something like offering to do extra/someone else's work, going to get drinks or food... that kind of thing..

once he actually gets to somewhat of a level of comfortableness with someone though then touch is another one, but only if he's certain he won't be seen by anyone else (not even necessarily just cus of the era he lives in but even if there weren't that element whatsoever he'd still feel it's like.. unbecoming? embarrassing? letting too much of himself be seen essentially) and still with that level of "I hate this I want this this makes me feel disgusting I don't care" etc etc etc over and over again on repeat in his mind forever. it'd take a loooong long time with Bedwyr to kind of get over that line of thinking and even then he never really fully does

JESUSSSS okay now Bedwyr. he's got his own contradictions going on but that are in contrast with Éamonn a fair bit..

he’s got an even more complicated and difficult relationship with Being Who He Is than Éamonn does (and this is something I would like to go more in depth about at some stage for both of them cus it’s at least interesting to ME but this is farrrrr too long already) but yet he’s like. Everything all at once. I see the list of the five different love languages (words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, gifts, touch) and I just think oh he’s literally all of those he does ALL of those

touch is probably his biggest because he’s always been physically affectionate with literally everyone be it friends family or whoever else cus his family & much of the people he grew up around were always like that and he never thought anything about it, the sort of person who’s always clapping people on the shoulder or patting them on the back or hugging them... picking them up and spinning them around... rugby tackling his mates without warning....................

he just likes making people happy and making them laugh! (or annoying them. in the way you find joy in annoying your friends. by throwing them about and sending them home with bruises.) (they get their own back it’s all about give and take.) and obviously the closer he is with someone and the more he really likes and cares about them the stronger that instinct is going to be

..then Éamonn has a really, really bad effect on that instinct because not only is he someone that Bedwyr is a little fascinated by and wants to get to know better, he's also someone who seems to rarely smile and never seems to be properly happy about literally anything, so he unintentionally and unknowingly flicks some switch in Bedwyr's brain that makes him decide "I have GOT to find out what makes this guy happy and then keep doing whatever that is forever", and that's long before Bedwyr even realises that oh christ he might actually feel something more worrying for this guy LMFAO

although he's kind of big on all of them I think second to touch would definitely be quality time for him cus he just loves spending time with the people he cares about, be it a lazy sunday or a day trip somewhere or just going to the pub, which is a bit of an annoyance for Éamonn at first because he never ever stops inviting him out for a few pints and getting him to mingle with the locals (but of course he does eventually grow to enjoy it..)

I best end it here before I go on for a million more years and I VERY easily could, considering I didn't get into the sort of.... Closer.... relationships Bedwyr had with people before he met Éamonn or much of his like deeper feelings on the subject like I did with Our Ned but like literally this would've been two or three times as long if I did. And also that is not what the original question even asked for so KJSNSDGKJDSN

EVENTUALLY if people are interested I'll try get into more of that BUT FOR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU VERY VERY VERY MUCH FOR THIS QUESTION this is a very important one I think and one it took me a good while to answer cus I had to think about it a lot. And maybe thought about it a bit too much considering how much I've gone on. God help us all