#I seriously don’t know how much more anti byler I can take

[eddiemunsonbrainrot]

convinced that when byler endgame happens some people will STILL say stuff like ‘well actually Mike still loves eleven and he is going to get back with her’ or ‘they only made byler canon because bylers were so annoying’ like GIVE IT A REST I BEG OF YOU

[emblazons]

I always thought it was weird that the thing Melvins defaulted to when they saw July criticism of Mike is "you're just mad your ship didn't happen" or "So Byler not being canon makes Mike a bad character? Stay mad." Because there's a large middle ground in between "Byler canon in vol 2" and "Mike ignoring Will crying in the van and saying his life started that day they met El in the woods."

If they weren't intending for Byler S5 endgame (which we know now that they are) then there is so much they could have done that didn't fit into one of those two extremes and still was written well, and so seeing all the (at the time) valid criticism be dismissed as just bitter shippers being bitter never sat right with me.

(I’m assuming this is in regard to the answered asked I linked in a couple of posts before this, so forgive me if I’m mistaken lol. That’s what I had in mind answering this).

Honestly? When I first walked into this fandom I didn’t even realize the things you listed were mlvn “talking points” until I saw them repeatedly in comments from vitriolic antis obsessed with ‘defending’ their ship / tearing down byler 😭 the first time I saw someone try to use me being critical of the writing to say that somehow meant mlvn endgame I laughed aloud, because the fact is (dare I admit this lmao) I was sold on those two breaking up more clearly after vol ii than I was Byler happening in S5 ☠️

That said—it is curious even now that people think engaging critically / having (at least somewhat objective) criticism for your media somehow means you don’t like what you’re criticizing, considering that (at least for me) it was the total opposite. It was my love for ST that made me invested enough to dig into why what happened in vol ii with WillElMike went down in the first place—and I’ve always been a firm believer in the “the most respectful thing you can do when engaging with an artist is to take their work seriously,” which was the respect I showed The Duffers by making an attempt to make sense of the “mess” they presented in Vol II.

To this day I think there might have been a few ways to make clearer their intent without giving the entire plot away—and I think The Duffers realize it too, considering they’ve admitted to hearing feedback from S4 and clarifying / reworking some things in S5 (if someone had that I’d love a link. I’m like 80% sure it was something for TUDUM) even though they do play stuff close to the chest. It’s not bad to admit a few things could have been clearer/tighter or even that it’s probably not great that it took most of even their most dedicated fans several months of reframing to make sense of their work, but I digress—the duffers aren’t perfect, even though they’ve written a great story + have a clear setup moving them into season 5. And that’s okay!

I’m more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt now that I know what their intentions were—which is why I always tell people to listen to the creators more than the actors when it comes to understanding wtf is going on. When you listen to how they write / what they think about what’s going on, it becomes a lot clearer 1) where their interests lie and 2) what they are trying to get across in both the action and the subtext—which is how most bylers got to the sentiments we have now.

Thanks for the ask!

[beepboop358]

Anti-Byler Argument Refuttals

Although I discussed all of this in my Byler Proof master slides post, I wanted to do a separate post specifically just refutting the most common anti-byler arguments.

1. "Mike and El's relationship is too developed" and "They have been through too much together to break up now!"

This is probably the thing I hear the most when people argue that Byler will never happen. The weirdest part of this argument is that people assume that they will never drift apart, and that they will never ever break up, as if we didn't just see them drift apart, break up, and not officially get back together in S3? Yes, they have both been through a significant amount of trauma, but their relationship is not as developed as people think it is, they barely even know each other really. They spent a week together in S1, then El was gone for a year. Mike and El don't reunite until the very end of S2, probably a few days after halloween. If we work out the timeline between Halloween of 1984 and July 4th of 1985 in S3, that's 246 days, so it's actually less than a full year they have spent together, getting to know each other.

The “development” people argue that Mike and El have just doesn't stand up. Mike and El do not have intimate conversations, their conversations are incredibly awkward, and they just kiss frequently in the beginning of S3 before they break up. That's not development. Hopper even refers to their constant kissing as "not normal and not healthy." Mike couldn't tell El he loves her to her face, which is a parallel to the failed relationship of Stancy where Nancy couldn't tell Steve she loved him, and we later find out it's because she doesn't, which all happens during the blank makes you crazy scene that is extremely similar to Robin's coming out scene. And yes, Mike and El have endured a lot of trauma together, but so has the rest of the group and people don't seem to use this argument the same way with the other couples, or between the friendships. History doesn't determine the future if there's no feelings involved, things can always change. This is idea of staying in a relationship where there is no real love but there is history/benefits is hinted at in S3 when Mike dresses almost identically to both of his parents.

2. "Look at how much Mike cares for El! They're in love!"

No, they're not, and how they treat each other proves that they're not. I firmly believe neither Mike nor El is seriously, romantically in love with each other.

If Mike was really deeply, romantically in love with El, why did he treat her like he did in S3? If he really cares about her that much, why did he wait for Lucas to guide him at all times in matters regarding his relationship with El, instead of just taking initiative, but he does take initiative with Will? Why can't her apologize to her? Why wasn't Mike more upset about El dumping him? Why couldn't he tell El he loves her to her face? Why did he consistently lie to her throughout the whole show? Why did he stop calling her in S2? Why did he give up and say she was dead, but never gave up on Will? Why did he scream in her face in S1? And no - it isn't because he's just shy or awkward. Mike doesn't act like he is truly in love with El because he isn't. He is projecting his feelings for Will onto El, and he is deeply in denial about his sexuality due to his internalized homophobia and hasn't fully processed how he feels about Will throughout the series (up until the ending of S3). And why does Mike have such an odd reaction to El saying she loves him if he does love her? If he loves her that should be exactly what he wants to hear, so why does he look so confused and scared? And why doesn't he just say it back right then?

El isn't seriously, romantically in love with Mike. They meet in S1, and he immediately takes her in, saving her life. He looks out for her, and actually cares if she is okay, and no one has ever done that for her before. El was abused her whole childhood until Mike lets her live in his basement. He was the first person to treat her like a human being, and show her compassion, which she has never experienced before. It makes total sense that she would cling to their relationship like a security blanket. Mike is an emotional attachment for El. He makes her feel safe, because of how he saved her life previously. El has very limited knowledge of love, life, friendship, relationships, and social behaviors since she was locked in a lab for over a decade of her life, she was never truly exposed to these concepts like the other kids in the party were. Everything El thinks she knows about love she learns from watching soap opera's alone in Hopper's cabin. Of course her perception of what romantic love is, is warped. If El was seriously romantically in love with Mike, why was their break-up no big deal to her? Why was she smiling, laughing and looking at pictures of boys with Max right after she supposedly dumped the love of her life? Why did she not seem even the slightest bit upset about it the entire season?

If they're both seriously in love, then why are their interactions so awkward to watch and why does it feel so unnatural and forced? Why don’t Mileven’s interactions feel romantic? The official released scripts on 8flix describe several Mileven scenes as "awkward". It's no coincidence that detail was included in the script.

3. "But they already have Robin"

I mean this comment basically means that sense the show already has one confirmed lgbtq+ character, there can't possibly be any others. What?! There isn't a "one gay character limit per TV show". This comment really bothers me because it reeks of homophobia. If you don't ship Byler that's fine, but refusing to even explore the possibility there could be more than one lgtbq+ character in a TV show just because one already exists? Yeah no. Queer people existed in the 80's, definitely more than just one, so capping out the amount of queer characters in the show is just icky.

Also, Robin was not originally written to be a gay character. It was decided during the filming process that Robin should be a lesbian, because Maya Hawke and Joe Keery were not getting romantic vibes between their characters. Just because the show introduced a new gay character in S3, it does not mean the queercoding of Will and Mike is erased to make room for Robin, and keep Mileven together. Making Robin a lesbian, does not cancel out Mike and Will being gay/liking each other, and the show's future plans for byler.

4. "Mike's not gay."

Does this seem straight to you?

Giving your girlfriend a drawing of your male best friend, that was drawn by him, but telling her it's your drawing so she'll hang it up on the wall you coincidentally face while you make out with her, to remind you of him.

Taking your girlfriends hands off of you while you're making out with her, and keeping your hands folded in your lap away from her.

Only being able to apologize to said male best friend and being more emotionally invested in that relationship than your relationship with your girlfriend.

Mike is the only other person besides Will pictured in close up shots with rainbow and fruit imagery.

Even the die-hard Mileven fans have to admit that's more than a little coincidental, and if we know anything about the Duffer brothers, it's that they love incorporating intricate details in their show to reveal things about the characters/plot.

If you want more examples, some images, or just a more in-depth analysis of byler throughout the series, I suggest you check out my Byler Proof master slides :)