#I love that even tho this show is so explicitly gay that it still has other LAYERS of gay on gay on gay subtext

[terrifiedofconflict]

Reading the Lestat book and how he came to accept that the institutions of family and religion could not provide him with meaning. He sought it through his relationship to Nicholas, music, theater, art, what the other people around him deemed as "sinful." Thinking about Louis's struggle with making his own meaning outside of those structures. He struggles with his identity needing to hinge on traditional ideas of stability: family(traditional rather than the queer found family type) and a career. Louis thinks of Lestat as frivolous and superficial, lacking in meaning, vs having to make his own. Lestat sees that for both of them, those things may not offer Louis actual happiness, but he's...let's say...impatient with the pace of Louis's journey. He's like the gay that already hated his family and does not get why his closeted boyfriend wants to keep going home for the holidays to his homophobic mom. The 2nd he turns Louis, he's essentially like, "Let's do poppers, go to the club and share this coffin." Which is a lot to be putting on someone not ready to come out as a "vampire."

After Louis' comes out to one other person he has just killed as a "vampire" Lestat says that that night should be their "new anniversary"

Bonus: in the 2nd season in Paris as Louis is becoming comfortable in his sexuality, him and Armand meet Jean Paul Satre at a Cafe. (Probably bs memory made up by Armand but STILL) Satre is the philosophy boy all about struggling with making your own meaning, ie existentialism.

[inventedfangirling]

My friends i watched love for love's sake and I swear i don't have a fckin clue where even to start.

I know a lot has been said about the show already and i know a LOT more would be said about in the future, but i just can't help adding my own two cents to one of the most thought-provoking, moving and brilliantly executed pieces of art i have ever seen.

I'm not gonna go on about just how much I loved Tae Myungha's character and how he is one of the most interesting people I've seen on screen in a long time. I'm not gonna talk about how unbelievably squishable Yeowoon is and how his duality totally ruined me that I need him to get into my pocket and NEVER leave. And oh I need him to put Myungha in his pocket while at it. I'm also not gonna talk about precious 'of course i'm gay, i've always liked girls, you don't know how to be loved' Sangwon is to me, cos if i start I can promise you I will most certainly never stop.

So for the sake of the rest of this post, I'm moving on. (NOT REALLY THO)

I just LOVE LOVE LOVE all the interpretations that people are coming up with, LOVE LOVE LOVE the show for filling in the gaps but LOVE it more for still leaving room for pretty thought-flowers to bloom around.

You know those artworks or puzzles that have something obvious hidden in a maze of confusion and haze until somebody points out the pattern, you zoom out and realize wow it was this clear all along?? That's a LOT of what watching the show felt like to me. The pattern being how inexplicably inter-connected Myungha and Yeowoon are. Not because they are each other's blorbos, but because why they are eo's blorbos. Why they don't care for each other from a sense of sympathy, but from empathy, despite not knowing the depth of their connections explicitly.

Eventhough we do see glimpses of it from the start, it only gets more clear later how Myungha and Yeowoon really are mirror versions of eo. How the first time Myungha sees Yeowoon he's stopping him from killing himself, and then we later find out that Myungha ends up killing himself. How both of it was triggered by a series of disappointments in life, starting with a troubling family and ending with a grandmother who passes away. Of how both of them seem to really have no one else to call their own in the world. Of leading very lonely depressing lives, that seem to never have a glimpse of hope. How both of them seem closed off, but inside they really are so fragile it hurts to perceive the depth of their feelings. It all comes and hits you once you've taken the whole show in and have gotten a few 1000 seconds to think about it.

We start off with myungha's character wanting to make his blorbo's character happy, and he's in it cos he cares about him, he doesn't have to think about himself. A 'pathetic' character experiencing a lot of pain, what's not to love, Myungha thinks, not realizing that it's his own mirror self that he is feeling so much for. Myungha sees Yeowoon's problems as someone from outside and is therefore able to objectively look at it, and approach it proactively, taking so many steps to help him, my favourite (and arguably most important) of which is the effort he puts in to help form yeowoon a friend circle. Something that he couldn't do for himself cos he never even considered a possibility of that. Why would anybody want to be around him? He ruins everything right?

And then to go on despite believing that, to falling in love, to deciding to choose to save both his grandma and yeowoon, finally FINALLY taking control into his hands even if for a bit to say what he wants, to spending the last few days together, to breaking up cos he just thinks the worst of himself, cos he doesn't know better. And then to the eternal darkness, where moments before leaving, just like in his real life, he realizes he wants in, he wants to live, he wants to love, but more importantly this time, he wants to try being loved. Even if it's difficult, he wants to try.

I love how eventhough the show is heavily Myungha focused, we get meaningful dynamics with multiple characters. Round eyed gasp inducing moments dont just belong to the two mains but also to sangwon whose line to myungha post the stalker incident just ruined me and really set the tone for whatever the show was later revealed to be all about.

I love how complicated the narrative got while still telling a more or less coherent story, how in hindsight, a lot of it makes even more sense now. How as Myungha gets closer to yeowoon his self-hating tendencies manifest in the form of debuffs and errors, because of his own brain's inability to perceive himself as somebody deserving love. His childhood trauma and the numerous rejections life has given him, because of the kind of person he turned out to be because of those rejections, all appear to stand in his way of happiness, as if he can't help being a bundle of sadness and a harbinger of problems. Even as he says he doesn't believe in destiny or fate. Or as we initially are made to believe in the game as, yeowoon's happiness, when in reality this was never about yeowoon at all. Yeowoon never existed in the first place and in "real" life, he never does.

I was blown away by how Myungha is in fact no longer in the mortal world but that fact doesn't hurt as much as that he would have to leave a world where he could finally feel happiness, feel loved, feel cared for, even if he consciously tried avoiding them. They still came to him, they still cared for him, they still fiercely wanted to protect him, (Cos he is just a tiny meow meow, who has been hurt a lot in his life, who wouldn't wanna caress and nurse him back to health HUH) just as much as he wanted to protect them.

And coming to the question of what's the game, where is it happening and who orchestrated it? It's definitely set in the afterlife or the limbo between life and the life after. It could be the author friend doing it, or the author friend has given myungha's brain the power to control the game OR of course the possibility that this has all been happening in myungha's head the whole time.

Whatever it is, the whole point has been to take Myungha from a person not wanting to live his life, feeling so devoid of love and happiness, to a journey of love and friendship, of the importance of fostering connections, of making efforts, of helping others, but equally of letting others help you, of putting your hand out and asking for that help. And in my head I love it most when I think of it as entirely Myungha orchestrated. Of it being a desperate cry of pain to himself, from himself, to save himself. Yeowoon and the game and the missions and all of it was for him to see himself in ways he never allowed himself to be seen as, to take care of himself in ways he never has, to love himself like he has never known to. To finally run towards himself, even if pathetic and sad, the Cha Yeowoon of the game, the person waiting at the end of the finishing line was the Tae Myungha in him all along.

You know that tumblr quote 'do it for her' but its about your future self, right? Myungha rooting for Yeowoon is sort of like that? When he's protecing him, he's protecting himself? When he's cheering for him, he's actually cheering and rooting for himself? When he's loving him, he makes space and place to love himself?

I just love the idea of a (self) love story.

Eitherway Yeowoon x Myungha supremacy.

Extreme(ly accurate?) Interpretations apart, Love for Love's Sake is truly one of the, if not THE finest (self) love story I might have ever seen.

As a person who avoids fics/books with mcd or shows with tragic endings, it felt absolutely revolutionary to me that my biggest joy and relief came from the fact that the main character is dead (the thought of myungha having to leave the game was too much to handle) and he gets to live in this game where he has a cute boyfriend, a supportive, caring friend group and his grandma back. it wasn't the game that was temporary or non-existent, it was actually his life outside. And that's not bad? Cos this is a story and Myungha isn't real, but as real as he is, he got his happy ending.

The show taught us to love, to see love, to be loved and to share that love. It told us that maybe the afterlife is a videogame simulation where we all get to live in friendship and love forever, with our blorbo and our friends. There are a lot worse lives to live. And I'm glad he found it in himself, enough love, courage and hope to write himself a better one :')

[shera-dnd]

Not to be a fucking weeb, but I'm just so glad we live in the era of anime that we live in

Back in the day characters would have the most homoerotic declarations of friendship to each other and you'd still have to argue with people on the internet over subtext

Like unless you were watching a show explicitly about girls being gay you'd never get anything more than a "you're my dearest friend" said in a tone that made the word "friend" buckle from all the work it has to do

But now we have gays piloting robots, gays playing in rock bands, gays getting isekaied, gays playing underground golf for the mafia

And it's all so delightfully blatant

In Witch From Mercury when Suletta makes the cliche "but we're both girls" line, Miorine just comments on how backwards Suletta's planet must be

Then you have Kita, from Bocchi the Scissor Rock, directly saying that she has a crush on Ryo, and Ryo openly talking about how much of a chick magnet she is

Anisphia from Magical Revolution is even more blatant, straight up shouting at the screen "if I fall in love with anyone it's gonna be with a woman!" a statement that may not be taken all that seriously by her father, but definitely by her future father in law

Not to mention Aoi and Eve from Birdie Wing who - even tho they don't fully understand their crushes for each other - are so stupidly gay for each other that their two best friends refuse to let them share a room, because they don't trust them alone together for an entire night

In short it's a good time to be a lesbian who is into anime and I'm so happy to see how much things have changed in the last few years

Can't wait for the Chainsaw Man anime to get to the international assassin's arc so we can have an even more wonderful time as gay weebs

Now give gay men and trans people the same treatment you fucking cowards

[greenfiend]

my older sister is just watching s4 for the first time when her toddler is put to bed. total GA, not a queer audience member, didn't catch up with anything prior to s4 but remembers enough to understand what's going on.

here are her thoughts before she embarks on the final ep!

she's a massive argyle fan - the way he is just making pizza when they're prepping to fight a demon haha

she's 'scared to watch' the finale: "I am scared of the horrible basketball twat to ruin their plan. Hate him"

"I also now feel like I need to rewatch seasons 1 and 2"

"Also. I know this is probably hella unpopular opinion but I really dislike Millie Bobby brown. She’s not a bad actress at all though"

"I love will"

I'll include our exact convo about this:

Sis: Will is in love with Mike right? It’s so adorable and heartbreaking

me: I KNOW. you wouldnt believe how many people didnt pick up on that and still think will is in love with eleven like wtf

sis: WHAT. no way

me: they’re like ‘there werent gay people in the 80s’

sis: omg stop

then she started talking about the hella other things going on. "There’s actually no characters I don’t like apart from the ones you’re supposed to not like." she said there's so many 'bad dads', she HATES papa lmao ('he's so desperate and cringe. "Approve of me even tho I treat you like shit!")

she started by watching while she works in her studio so probs missed all the mike clues, but she's fully focussed now for the finale, and it sounds like she'll be more than thrilled to find byler is requited as she adores will!

i'll update her thoughts post-finale when they come in :) let's see if she picks up on it!

I absolutely love knowing people’s thoughts when they watch ST for the first time. 😃

I think the majority of people who have paid some attention figured out fairly easily that Will is gay and that he loves Mike! My partner figure out he was gay from the very beginning. But with Mike… I tried to make them guess why Mike couldn’t love El and it took a while but finally they guessed correctly. Lol

When it comes to Mike, the clues are there but El is covering them up so to speak. The mere fact that he has a girlfriend is making most people assume that he’s straight. Especially because El is such a focus in the show.

I remember for me as a GA, the thought of Will/Mike was always somewhat of a possibility in my head- just because they are so emotionally intimate. Even though I didn’t know if the writers were going that direction, I definitely never ruled it out.

Overall, I think most of the GA will be satisfied with Will/Mike, especially if it’s all explained explicitly enough for them!

Thanks for the ask!

[frogs-and-books]

Disagree with your post about Riz on two fronts. First, he's no more canon ace than he is canon aro. The word of god statement from someone who doesn't even control the character isn't a definitive statement of canon. That's not how fiction works. If it's not in the text, they could justifiably walk it back at any time. Second, if anything, it's more accurate to call Riz canon aro because of his coding. A character doesn't have to say "I'm gay" to be canon gay. All they have to do is explicitly express interest exclusively in people of the same gender expression to be acknowledged as gay. Why does an aro character have to explicitly state their identity in order for it to count when that's not an expectation for allo queer people anymore? And has never been an expectation for straight people?

I agree no one should be harassing anyone, though. I'm with you there

I assumed that he talked to Murph before saying anything, but I'd hope that if someone just lied about his character, Murph would clarify. But we have no evidence either way. I would still say that someone on the team confirming it is more canon than anything implied, tho. And yep, he shows the signs, but that doesn't make it canon. He does not have a label in canon, we can say how he thinks and feels about relationships and how he reacts to those things as facts, but we cannot factually state one way or the other what his sexuality is (in the romantic sense). Anything implied is up to interpretation, which makes it unreliable. Subtext is fun, but it's like two people debating whether the color red in a painting represents love or rage, no one really wins. It's simply two different interpretations, neither is right or wrong until the artist confirms one way or another.

Something isn't canon unless it's clarified onscreen or stated to be canon by someone behind its creation. Anything else is up to interpretation.

And I think if a character explicitly shows interest in the same gender but never says they aren't attracted the other, they could be gay or bisexual. Maybe someone would get mad if you called them bi, but I wouldn't because they're just two different interpretations of the same thing.

Headcanons are valid, as long as you remember that no one is forced to have the same interpretation of media as you do. That's the great thing about media analysis. You can't be right or wrong because it's all just your interpretation.

So, in the end, Riz is not canonically Aromantic because coding doesn't equal representation and because what you see as coding could be read differently by someone with different life experiences from you.

[i-only-want-endless-happiness]

Dear pjo fandom

I just read the sun and the stars and i was so happy to come here and see all the little cute fan arts and what i find is a bunch of adults complaining about a child books series istg this fandom is one of the most toxic ones out there.

Now i could tell you that if you want to consume a product whatever it is movies,books,tv shows ecc that's explicitly for kids/preteens you have to approch it with the right mentality which is letting your inner child enjoy the product if you're 20+ something, cause of course the adult you won't feel the same wonder, and sure kids products don't have to be bad or bland and there are other things out there aimed at kids that are better than tsats BUT it's not a bad book, mark oshiro did such a good job at portraying healing and trauma, they also did an amazing job at presenting to middle schoolers the idea of romantic relationships being not all roses and flowers and unicorns, human relationships are hard no matter the kind, it's something difficult to accept and to deal with especially when every single fairy tale you read as a kid teaches you that there is a happily ever after, that after adversities everything gets solved and goes fine, when you grow up you learn that nothing is further from the truth than that, i could also tell you that of course the concept is extremely simplified but again it's a book for kids/preteens, i could tell you to not go for something you know it's not targeted to you if you want approch it in a cynical way, i could give you as example that reading tsats and wanting maturity out of it is like going to watch a disney animation movie and then complaining they sing too much. Cause now you have to tell me when rick riordan has been mature or not cringe in the whole entirity of the pjo saga? He literally wrote a dam joke after killing off a 12 years old, added a judo flip to a romantic reunion of two characters that haven't seen each others for almost a year, wrote a romantic declaration from a 20 years old something to a 16 years old girl, wrote about gods falling for the stupidiest shit said by teenagers demigods, made percy at 12 years old won a fight against the fucking god of war and i could go on so if that has been ok with you till now what is even the point? The truth is y'all are not complaining cause the book feels immature/cringe/ooc ecc y'all are complaining cause you hate will and you hate him cause you ship nico with percy,jason,leo or who knows who and that's ok you don't have to like will or solangelo you can ship whatever you want (i'm an "anomaly" in this fandom i never shipped percabeth, i started prefering percy and rachel and i ended up loving the idea of annabeth and piper, still i can be objective enough to read a whole saga where percy and annabeth are the main couple and not shit on it just cause i don't ship them together) of course you can complain about this book but at least make an effort and think of valid reasons. The real problem is why did you decide to buy and read a book that focuses as one of the main plots on a relationship you hate so much, if you can't stand them as a couple why did you read it in the first place? This book is not perfect it lacks things and there are topics that needed to be handled better sure, but it's not bad,ooc or cringe, cheesy maybe but not the kind of cringe you are trying to make it pass. The real deal here is you don't really care about any of those things you just hate the ship the book revolves around and again that's fine but just be honest it's way more respectful than taking away the work af a queer author that tried to settle more the idea of a queer couple being normal and equal to a straight one to a group of young people who are living in a society that still is against queer people.

Damnit shut up, do it for the gay kids

A former kid (still queer tho)

(if i made mistakes forgive me english is not my first language)

[messmersflame]

ok i finally have the braincells so here's some of my criticisms/pointing out of .... questionable content in bg3 that i've personally come across. it may get a bit long. apologies for if it's difficult to read, i'm just trying to lay out my thoughts here. some things are also more serious than others.

The Dark Urge this one is relatively small, as playing the dialogue for the dark urge kind of hints at it, but i do think that it needs a MUCH clearer indication that it can be dark and probably disturbing/distressing to play as. and also that it should probably not be reccomended for a first run, as it does change things quite a bit.

sexuality and romance choice i think it would just be helpful if, when a party member hits on you or shows interest, that you are able to say 'i'm not into girls/guys/anything at all'. and that this specifically shuts down their comments. i have a friend that was disappointed that he couldn't say this to lae'zel, and got further uncomfortable when she kept on saying 'you will wonder what i taste like' when he's a gay guy trying to play a gay guy. it would also be uncomfortable for someone not interested in that aspect of the game/romance and sex in general, i would imagine. also related to this, and i do understand why every single romanceable character is bisexual as this just makes things a lot easier, but i do feel that there should be characters that just are not bi, even just among npcs. there's some npcs in same gendered relationships which is good, though i think there needed to just be more characters that clearly are not bi. (though given the dragon age modding scene's track record, i also get just wanting to avoid that outright.)

trangender characters you the player character can be trans and i love this. i do wish there was a way to have the more feminine frames with a flatter chest, and vice versa, though. i mean we have genital options, but no chest options...? (also no weight or further body shape options but i digress). i also think i noted maybe, two? npcs? that were transgender? and i feel that there really needs to be more trans and nonbinary npcs, specifically prominent ones and not relegated to background characters that you blink and miss (which one of the ones i found was). bg3 has given me as a player far more options to play a trans nonbinary character than any game ive played thus far, but there needs to be more beyond just the player themself in terms of trans rep.

party member racism as a romani person myself, i found myself relating to the tiefling group quite a lot. i dont expect larian to not include fantasy racism in the game, but playing as a tiefling and having a party member, lae'zel, call you and your kind 'cockroaches' with no way to chew her out for it, and just having no proper way to direclty combat the racism of your party members in general is. very uncomfortable. astarion also has some lines like this, and while he does eventually change his attitude, i havent been able to change or confront that with lae'zel. not good for someone youre meant to adventure with and trust.

the goblins and treatment of the way that the goblins are depicted and treated (while not wholly larian's fault since they didn't make the setting- still not an excuse tho) could have been handled better. there are a few instances where you can stand up for them as being people without condoning their actions, but overall they are treated as 'dirty uncivilised tribals' and i hope i dont need to explain why that kind of depiction is bad. they're background cronies of the bbeg, explicitly revealed to having been manipulated and controlled into serving the bbeg, and any exploration of actual goblin culture is treated as a joke.

murdering goblin kids specifically is okay apparently on the topic of the goblins- i was appaled when i realised that in order to free halsin, you have to kill two goblin kids. in fact, if you choose to attack the whole goblin camp, you kill more goblin kids. nobody bats an eye at this. yet, when you do the reverse and attack the grove where there are children that you can kill/cause the death of, this is explicity treated as a bad thing. it's just disgusting that goblin children being killed is not given the same treatment, just because they're goblins.

ableist abuse is fine when the person was abusive to you first in the underdark in act 1 (and later in act 3 if you helped them), there is a dwarven? couple, baelen and derryth bonecloak. baelen has gone missing, and you can find and rescue him. he clearly has some kind of neurological disability, and has difficulty with verbal communication and his memory. his wife, derryth, berates him and treats him as stupid for his disability. you can confront her about it in act 1, and later in act 3 go snooping and find out more information about their relationship- baelen, prior to whatever caused his disability, was an abusive and evil man who beat her and gave her the facial scar she has, among other abuses. of course this abuse is horrific, but this is then used to justify derryth's own abuse of the man, since he now is reliant on her for food ect. she basically says that she can treat a disabled man however she wants because at least she cares for his needs and he abused her anyways so it's payback. i do believe that his disability does not override or excuse what he did in the past and that she has every reason to still hate him, but this still does NOT excuse this treatment of him now that he is disabled and relies on her as a caregiver. becoming disabled is not a fucking punishment and it's disgusting that larian even chose to include this kind of thing in their game at ALL. it's also worsened by the fact that i see many people commenting on how they're going to just kill him because he deserves it, and it's 'doing him a favour since he's disabled now'. this is the kind of sentiment that larian are encouraging by having this narrative in their game and as a disabled person myself, and someone who has family and friends who literally act the way baelen does with his disability, it is not fucking okay.

twin drow sex workers i hope i don't need to explain why it's fucking gross and creepy that larian have two sex workers in act 3 be twins that regularly participate in sex with the same client at the same time, and the player is also able to do so. some party members, such as karlach, comment on how them being literally brother and sister is gross, so it's not as if larian are not self aware enough to see why it's not good to fetishise incest. but they put it in there anyways! for the player to indulge in! and it's depicted as sexy! being a survivor of incest csa, i was pretty shocked and appaled by that inclusion. they could have very easily just had the two be runaway lovers. there was literally no need for them to be made twins.

sexual slavery and abuse is sexy when it's halsin if you do actually sleep with the aforementioned drow along with halsin, he will have a new dialogue where he talks about being held prisoner in the underdark 'chained to the bed, somewhere between a prisoner, a guest, and a consort'. so, he was kept as a sex slave and just slave and captive in general by drow for a while. the player can say that's horrible, but halsin brushes this off and says it wasn't so bad. because apparently he liked being kept as a sex slave? this is just brainwashing and coercive rape, larian. considering how they handled astarion's sexual abuse and slavery, it was outright shocking to learn that halsin's own abuse is handled so poorly and in fact turned into some weird bdsm fetish instead.

[mdhwrites]

Do you think the writers made Amity "perfect" by accident? Not perfect but decent enough, I was thinking maybe that's why they didn't put much focus on Willow and Gus because they don't know how to? Or were just unaware of the fandom's interest in these characters and thought we don't care

They put more focus on Hunter tho, but he's all over the place.

Maybe it's because Amity was written with a end goal/end result in mind, to be paired with Luz so they knew how to start her characterisation and arc? I guess (also why she gets nothing after that's done)

With Gus and Willow it's like they were written to be nothing besides background characters, first intent before fandom pressure

Hunter is basically Amity if she had like, more end goals or more arcs in mind but you don't know which one to chose, (looks like they tried to write them all in). It's like the opposite of Willow and Gus but with the same result, not knowing what to do with them.

Somehow she's solid enough to still attract attention even by doing trivial stuff. Still indulging even if it's just her being clumsy or rambling about a student council. It's a charisma that I don't see in others characters (except Lilith and Boscha but that's a personal thing for me not general)

It took me a couple reads to understand what you meant by perfect to realize you meant as far as narrative potential goes and in that regard...

She's not perfect. She goes well with the high concept fantasy idea as someone who has directly profited from Belos and conforms to his system and the school ideas because... Obvious reasons quite frankly but one half of this is never acknowledged. Not only that but she doesn't fit well with wacky hi-jinks because she'd always need a purpose behind her actions (at least in Season 1). She's effectively too logical so forcing her into a situation can be awkward.

As for if it were intentional, I don't entirely think so. Dana had an interview recently that illuminated how much the romantic interests in the show for Luz and Eda were explicitly for the sake of being romantic interests. That one was because they wanted an old flame for Eda and the other was so they could quickly get a casual, gay relationship in before anyone could stop them. That's me closely quoting the brief interview.

And Amity's potential, and then waste of it, reflects the role of being made to allow for a fast, LGBT relationship. So much of her angst and 'problems' are things that contrast with Luz in a way that, if you don't actually care about them, can be bulldozed through with enough meaning to give a plus one to their relationship each time more of Amity is fixed. They are also all setup in ways that fit well to Luz's talents or by the basic premise of 'friendship and kindness are good'.

This is also why so much of it is discarded and sheered off so quickly. Why things like Willow are pushed away so quickly for the sake of the romance because while S1 was a bit more subtle about it, there's still the line in S2 of "I do stupid things around you." Which... Would ring more true if she felt like she did illogical things before Looking Glass but she really doesn't. Maybe a touch distracted but there's always a rhyme and a reason behind what she did until that episode.

In that sense, Lumity could be said to be rushed actually. Not that I think it is but there's a case to be had that realistically, if we were to treat Amity as a more full character, it should have taken longer. There should have been more in the way. Amity 'acting silly' shouldn't have been the only fear she had about them getting together.

Which I'm going to genuinely plug Rich Witch here. A large part of why Rich Witch was made was that while I explore a LOT of Amity's potential in The Power of Love, my story started between seasons, it still started with them only one step away from getting together. Worries like what being friends with Luz meant, what ditching her friends meant to her parents, and somewhat to them, etc. like that were harder to cover in that story.

So I wanted a clean slate. If Amity actually had a reason to be against Luz, what does it take to get them together? How bad of a friend was Amity before Luz came around? How much of this was self inflicted and how much of it was outside forces? And how did the process of getting close go if the story were more focused on the romance and Amity?

Those were essentially the fundamental questions that led to me making Rich Witch which I do wish to continue someday. Just... Well, Amazon did its own platform dirty and made failure pretty much the fate of all but the already wealthy and influential and that has done bad things to me about it. *sigh*

Sorry I mostly focused on the beginning of the ask btw. Hunter got more attention because he's plot relevant, Gus and Willow lost attention because quite frankly they're just there to help facilitate Hexide things and thus Amity so once Amity was a bigger deal, they were shoved to the side (until then used to help Hunter's character). And Amity is pretty, nice and has a very good VA so her having a lot of charisma with the show, which will pause for ten seconds to just spend time making her look good (when she picks up random abomination goo in Special 2) so it's not surprising she has more charisma than other characters. She was the favorite for a reason and few will abandon their favorites quickly.

[drbtinglecannon]

I am truly hoping Zeno was just joking but I truly don't have much hope for Dadrius anymore tbh. It will always be canon in my heart tho

I get what you mean but honestly I'm not sure it's worth worrying about yet for a few reasons

1. Zeno likes to troll (affectionate) the fandom a bit. He's done this before when asked "Who would Hunter go to Grom with" & he responded with multiple answers which included two of Hunter's most popular ships, he said his favorite bit of VAing was in "Thanks To Them" and prefaced it with saying his other favorite bits were "Hollow Mind" and "Eclipse Lake" and suggested we all brace ourselves for the scene (it ended up being the Luz calling Hunter family scene which was excellent & cathartic btw), etc. So while I said "I think we lost :(" I was partially joking bc I know Zeno likes to do this, but I was also a bit disappointed even if I know I really shouldn't be bc Camila is a top tier parent. I'm not actually committed that Noceda won, but I also can acknowledge that maybe it did/will & honestly it wouldn't be bad even if it wasn't what I staked my interest in yknow

2. Zeno already changed it again to "Heart of Flapjack", so I think since the special came out he's just having fun with what was revealed & is changing his name around accordingly

3. Zeno wouldn't actually spoil the series ending, none of the cast/crew would. They've been very careful about it in all the Post-Hoots, con questions, etc. If Hunter does explicitly become "Hunter Noceda" I'd say that's a sizeable spoiler for his arc given there was no specific sign of that happening in this special & the debate about who will adopt Hunter/what his last name will be is fairly common in the fandom. There are at least 4 different last names he gets tagged with, and while Camila has done so much for these kids, she & Hunter didn't have any singularly significant scenes together (in no way am I undermining Camila or how clearly important she is to Hunter tho) (& yes she did dive into the water for him but he wasn't conscious for that & she would've done it for any of the kids, so I'm talking more like. Her scene tucking Luz into bed kinda singularly significant, but obviously those kinda scenes would be focused on Luz)

4. Camila hasn't even officially adopted Vee or called her her daughter or even said "I love you", which I was definitely expecting when they parted during the ending & truthfully I was a bit disappointed by it not happening. I'm not saying Camila can't adopt multiple kids but given everything between Camila & Vee I'd say that's the more important dynamic, and it hasn't happened yet, if it will at all. That doesn't necessarily mean Hunter Noceda can't happen first but it'd be a weird decision

5. Like I said above Zeno expressed his favorite bit of VAing was the Luz Hunter family scene, so Zeno writing "Hunter Noceda" feels like a homage to that scene which was a milestone in his career (so completely independent of fandom discussion, which makes sense & he's entitled to). Zeno likes to troll a bit but he's also an actor building his career & has completely different experiences being in the show than we the fandom have watching it, so maybe he's making a statement of his preference, maybe he's spoiling, or more likely he's referencing his time with the show.

6. Because it was Zeno's favorite scene and given who was in it, it feels explicitly about Luz & Hunter being family -- not Camila at that moment, JUST Luz & Hunter. Luz doesn't go by Clawthorne but she's still undeniably a part of Eda & King's family, so Hunter "being a Noceda" doesn't automatically mean "Camila is his mom now", if any of that makes sense. Something something found family isn't so nuclear something

7. Even if we don't get Dadrius they've explicitly used precious minutes of screentime after the show got cut to build a dynamic between them where they both clearly have started to care a lot about the other, so he'll probably still have "mentor" or "gay uncle" status by the end if not "dad" -- not the same or what I wanted but I'll still take it. I've said it before but if the goal was to make Darius likeable all they had to do was reveal he was a rebel (which was gonna be revealed anyway), they didn't need to give Hunter another new dynamic when he already had so many and they didn't need to make Darius of all adults the first one to give a shit about Hunter esp considering he never did before.

8. Hunter can have multiple parents with different last names like Luz does, as a treat

TL;DR I don't think it's a declaration that Hunter Noceda is unarguably canon even if a lot of the fandom will & already have taken it as word of god. It might end up being so, but I think at this time Zeno is more expressing passion for a pivotal moment in his acting career & is just having fun.

Anyway here's how Dadrius can still win ---

[femmesandhoney]

i'm not sure what other gay implications have been censored bc i've only heard of the jeht thing but that's quite sad 😭. those tweets really annoyed me since they felt so dismissive of how censorship affects lgb ppl and representation of same sex relationships. it's nice that hyv continues to give us implied gay and lesbian relationships even when they've been forced to remove stuff before. they even extend it NPCs (who don't make them money) and dedicated a whole lantern rite (only yearly reoccurring festival, representing chinese culture!!) to showing guiping being soulmates.

i've read that beiguang thread; i love it a lot and reread it (+ other threads by that twt user) every once in a while since the amount of symbolism between them is wonderful. like the amount of effort put into their relationship is so lovely. and i love that the VAs are allowed to openly talk about and ship the gay and lesbian ships. not only the english VAs but i've seen chinese VAs tease about them often too!!

ur right that bronya and seele are more explicitly lesbian in honkai impact! in fact they kiss in one of the mangas (so not in game but still official content) and unfortunately this actually got taken down due to censorship and iirc was only reuploaded on the global site. not sure if it's still unavailable in CN. and apart from those two, the other two main characters, kiana (protagonist) and mei (who ei and makoto are based on) are canonically in love too!! kiana declares her love for mei within like 10?? minutes of starting the game and is very affectionate towards her. the driving force behind one of mei's main character arcs is literally her love for kiana. they have a buuuunch of cute official art including them getting married etc.

if you would like to see them being angsty here is one of their most iconic moments:

https://youtu.be/v1sd5CzR504?si=o3yEoUIrYNCoe1dD

for context kiana (white hair) is dying and mei (black hair) has been offered the chance to save her by an enemy organisation and kiana is trying to stop her from leaving and joining that organisation

sorry for rambling 😭 i just love hyv lesbians

no haha im actually already decently familiar with the hi3 lesbians (tho not the story of honkai), so thank you for the reminders and context! also i forgot the bronseele stuff got taken down, which is again such an obvious rebuttal to those people who go "well there's explicit gay relationships in hoyo's other games, so they could do it in genshin and this means the couples you think are implied gay actually aren't" yeah before the even harder censorship crackdown that occurred a few years ago, those games?? the ones now being affected by the same censorship? like lmao okay. and genshin is their most popular game, ofc the censorship will be more enforced upon the media that has the most eyes on it. like it doesn't take much thought to realize why and what is being censored in genshin lmao. i wish we had more explicit lesbian and gay rep in genshin tho :'( i'm familiar enough with kiana and mei to wish we got more stuff like that. maybe in an upcoming region we could get a lesbian couple that's more heavily hinted at like how alhaitham and kaveh were. and they need to go "back" to beidou and ning and ei and miko and give them more obvious couple-y hints and scenes, we haven't seen them in ages and i'm missing them so much, especially beidou and ning.

[majimasleftasscheek]

I want to write some smutty fic + plot with kiryu and majima, but I've only played kiwami 2 so I'm scared I don't know enough about them as characters. Any tips or suggestions? (also bless your art c:)

klsdjkld thank you also I'm super flattered you'd come to me for tips 🥺💖 I can give a lil insight from things in the games so I’ll try not to be explicitly spoilery but just giving a heads up in case

so obvs I speak from a shippy dippy perspective but they do genuinely care about each other, especially in y3. Majima's a person Kiryu trusts and Majima's equally someone who would willingly do whatever to help out people he cares about. Majima's the type to be like yeah I'll die for you (serious)

since you've played 2, then you can very much see how Majima's willing to get back into Tojo bullshit cuz Kiryu asked him to. It's certainly telling that Kiryu goes to Majima of all people for help when it comes to Tojo shit which I think is a nice way to show he respects him to some degree. As nice as Kiryu is tho, he can still be a rude lil turd and likes to make jabs. He’s got a tendency to say shit he thinks is cool even if its inappropriate lol

also like, Kiryu doesn't really know how to read Majima but also I don't think Kiryu knows how to read many people tbh. There's a wild freeness about Majima that Kiryu enjoys seeing and indulging in, like when they fight and he seems to actually have fun with it. I don't think he's 100% aware of why he enjoys it or why he's willing to put up with Majima's dumbassery but Kiryu doesn't really need answers. Majima is Majima and that simplicity works for him

there's a lot of stuff in Dead Souls that gives insight into Majima and because I'm ill of course I know all of it. Lots of softie moments, Majima's a bit of a control freak about his appearance, he's an ass but it's playful assholery, he loves his subordinates even if he's a turd @ them, he's forgetful as shit, he's a bit of a stickler for rules - by the book type of stuff. THERE'S ALSO a part with a lil girl and he's so cute and awkward with her and it fulfills my dadjima addiction. I think Maji would love Haruka very much and Kiryu would be pleasantly surprised by that side of him

in y3, it's Kiryu's big dad simulator so you get to see him being a wise old fart even if sometimes he's a total boomer and embarrassing. He tries his best and has the best intentions but honestly his lone wolf attitude is often his downfall. Kiryu's very much a "I'll take a bullet for you even if there's other options to definitely not take a bullet" type of guy. He blames himself for a lot of problems out of his control and he's got quite the track record of running away from things if he feels like it'll be for the greater good of everyone else (it isn't lol). Suffer in silence sort of dude

they honestly don't interact much after 3 tbh cuz I guess it was too gay lmao but uhhhh they're definitely still motivated by each other's actions. 5 is very big on Kiryu beats up a lot of people again™, due to something that happens to Majima. At that point, Kiryu's life is quite far removed from the whole yakuza thing so I think it says a lot that he throws himself back into the fray for this bowlcut bitch

also! Majima’s wacky but it’s most certainly a façade. He’s very capable of toning it down in serious situations and equally, Kiryu’s a funky dude! Majima’s the type to put up fronts for his image while Kiryu’s very reserved but will absolutely go all out on something cuz he just can’t not put his 100% into everything even if it’s silly

I tried to keep things mostly factual based on the games with a couple of my own hcs thrown in so I hope it helps!!

I have another post I'm writing for like deep angsty shit for another ask so if that'll be of use to you, keep an eye out for that :)

[hamarhemmo]

Not related to my usual content but it's Pride Month so I'm gonna give some LGBTQ+ book/TV show/movie recommendations. This is a long post so feel free to skip.

Books:

The Song of Achilles: About Achilles' and Patroclus' relationship from Pat's POV. Not entirely historically accurate but great none the less. Has some slightly graphic sex scenes.

The Secret History: About a group of (mostly rich) college students who commit murder and have a bacchanal. Has one canonically gay character (Francis), one canonically bi character (Charles) and the main character is implied to be queer. There are also some other characters who are probably gay or bi (ex. Henry and Julian). A very messed up book but I love it.

Good Omens: A story about an angel and a demon saving the world from Armageddon. All of the ethereal characters are non-binary. (The main characters usually use he/him pronouns and present masculine.) The story is also practically enemies-to-friends-to-lovers personified. The lovers part is more explicit in the TV show version. A very funny book/show with great characters and some diversity. I recommend.

Brokeback Mountain: Read the movie section.

The Picture of Dorian Gray: A story about Basil Hallward, a moral artist; lord Henry Wotton, a very immoral man who just corrupts people for fun; and of course Dorian Gray himself, a young man who changes his soul for eternal youth. Written by the gay icon Oscar Wilde. Has a shitload of homoerotic subtext and was even used as evidence of Oscar being gay. Basil is in love with Dorian (and so is possibly Henry), Dorian is probably bisexual. (Explicitly in the 2005 movie.) The book has murder and suicide in it but no graphic violence. The movie has some sex scenes. Overall TPoDG is great and I recommend it warmly.

TV shows:

Brooklyn Nine-Nine: A sitcom about detectives. Talks about racial issues, LGBTphobia, the flaws in American prison system, sexual harassment etc. Of the main 6 characters one is gay (Holt), one is bi (Rosa) and one is possibly bi (Jake). Lots of LGBTQ+ and POC representation. Is on Netflix in some countries.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Pretty standard anime (and manga). Tells about the members of the Joestar family. Explaining the plot or the universe would take way too much time so I'm not going to do that. Practically all characters are queer coded and some are canonically LGBTQ+ (DIO, Jotaro, Speedwagon etc.) Very funny but weird. Doesn't have a lot of well written femle characters but I still definitely recommend. First three parts are in Netflix in some countries, all animated parts are in Crunchyroll for free.

Good Place: Tells about a woman named Eleanor who, despite being an awful person, got into the good afterlife by accident. Eleanor is bisexual, Janet is non-binary (uses she/her pronouns tho), Tahani is possibly bi and Jason is attracted to non-binary Janet. A pretty good show, I recommend giving it a go. Is on Netflix in some countries.

Good Omens: Read the book section. Is on Amazon Prime.

Hannibal: A show about everyone's favorite fictional cannibal Hannibal Lecter and an FBI agent called Will Graham, who are obsessed/fall in love with each other. The show is extremely homoerotic and Hannibal is canonically omnisexual in it. Unfortunately the show got canceled after 3rd season so the ending isn't very good. Has some lesbian side characters. The show also has lots of gore so if you don't like that, I can't recommend it. Surprisingly funny despite the violence. I'm not sure where you can watch it anymore. Has some pretty graphic lesbian sex scenes.

Umbrella Academy: About seven siblings with superpowers. One of the characters is canonically pansexual and according to the actor non-binary (Klaus), one is wlw (Vanya, not sure about her exact sexuality) and one just has huge bi vibes and a possible crush on John F. Kennedy (Diego). There is also talk about child abuse and drug addiction. The show has its problems, like two of the siblings dating (they are not biologically related but it's still messed up). It's still a great show tho. (The show is based on a comic but I haven't read it.) It is one Netflix at least in some countries. (Also Elliot Page plays Vanya and I love him.)

Movies:

The Road to El Dorado. It technically doesn't have canon queer characters but the main bois were apparently supposed to be a couple. They act very couple-y and are bi kings in practically everyone's books. One of my favorite animated movies. Is on Netflix in some countries.

Brokeback Mountain: A classic and very sad. Tells about two cowboys in the 60s living together on a mountain for a while and falling in love. One of the main characters (Ennis) struggles with his sexuality. As I said, it's a classic abd I recommend watching it. Ver slow paced but I kinda like that. Has one pretty graphic sex scene. Is on Netflix in some countries.

The Picture of Dorian Gray (2009): Read the book section. I'm not sure where you can watch it.

I can't add more tags so I'll possibly make a second part.

[madara-fate]

I also wasn't insinuating that MinaKushi or DanTsu are the only good examples of good romantic relationships (I don't even care about these pairing for the record, or any other pairing in Naruto). I'm just pointing out that people do not doubt that Minato loves Kushina or that Dan loves Tsunade. If Sasuke genuinely loved Sakura and Kishimoto did a good job at showing it, then there would not be a huge debate on whether he does love her or not, because it would be obvious to pretty much everyone that he does, whether they like the ship or not. The fact that it's not and that so many people still debate on this to this day either shows that Kishimoto did a poor job at showing Sasuke as a loving husband either that Sasuke does not love her, despite that "love is the real deal" line or his reply to Sarada's question. It's show vs tell if you know what I mean. On one hand he tells us that "love is the real deal" but on the other hand he does not really show it all too well, which makes many people think whether he truly meant those words or he was being sarcastic and simply mocked the fans. It's either a case of bad writing either Sasuke simply does not love Sakura. I personally don't know what to think. I tend to lean towards the first option, it may just be bad writing after all. He admitted he's not great at writing romance and to be honest? It shows. It is even implied they haven't kissed in Gaiden by Sakura looking sad when Sarada asked her if they ever kissed. And I know you like to refute that by saying that it's preposterous to think they haven't kissed when they obviously had sex in order to concieve Sarada, but the thing is, it is entirely possible to have sex with someone but not kiss. It really is. When you're having sex but you're not really enjoying it or when you have simply been pressured and pestered into having sex with a person. Sakura Hiden confirmed the fact that Sakura was determined to confess her feelings to Sasuke over and over again until he would've eventually reciprocated. She compared that with punching a villain over and over until they're defeated. Now please tell me, would it be so far fetched to consider that harassment? If someone tells you no once, you have to respect their rejection and stop pursuing them, not take it as a challenge to persist in reaffirming your feelings over and over again until they eventually get tired or take pity in you and accept to give you a chance. And even in Gaiden it was confirmed that Sakura had to chase after Sasuke. It's really easy to see this ship as... problematic, to say the least. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt tho and blame it on bad writing rather than on Kishimoto simply implying SS is not really a loving relationship, but if other people are not convinced or deny that Sasuke loves Sakura, you have to let your bias aside and admit that they have reasons to believe that. The writing makes it really easy to interpret it either way, depending on your preferences.

I already answered a lot of the points you made here in my response to your previous ask, but it's important for people to remember the type of person Sasuke is, and understand that the manner in which he shows affection isn't the same as Dan or Minato. It's a lot more subtle. Are people doubting that Vegeta loves Bulma and Trunks? No, so then people need to ask themselves - in which ways has Vegeta demonstrated that he loves his family in ways that Sasuke hasn't? Both of them aren't outwardly affectionate, both of them aren't romantic, but both of them have undoubtedly demonstrated that they love their family. Yet, only one of them is questioned. It really is just a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. If Sasuke acts all affectionate like Dan and Minato, people will claim that he's OOC (like they did for Sasuke Retsuden), but if he stays reserved and demonstrates affection in his own way, people will just turn a blind eye and say he doesn't care. It really just shows how little they actually know Sasuke's character. To think that Sasuke, who hails from the clan which values love above all else, would marry and start a family with someone he doesn't love.

On one hand he tells us that "love is the real deal" but on the other hand he does not really show it all too well, which makes many people think whether he truly meant those words or he was being sarcastic and simply mocked the fans.

People actually think that Kishi may have been "sarcastic" when he described their love as the real deal. Oh my goodness. Why would Kishi purposely give wrong information to the readers (and never reveal what's actually going on)? Why would he intentionally want the readers to misunderstand his story and characters? Why would he want to portray his 2nd biggest character as someone who would enter a loveless marriage when that literally goes against the ways of his clan and his entire character? Do people not listen to themselves?

It's like how so many people claim that Sasuke saying "because you exist" means that the only reason he and Sakura are still together is because of Sarada, and people really don't realise how stupid that sounds. They don't stop and ask themselves why Sarada would be brought to happy tears, why Chouchou would describe her as lucky, and why Naruto would give her a knowing smile, if Sasuke had really just insinuated that she was the only thing that was keeping her parents together:

They just don't think. They apparently believe that Chouchou was happily thinking to herself "aww, lucky Sarada, you're the only thing keeping your parents together!", and that makes sense to them apparently, Chouchou being so happy for Sarada after hearing such awful news. It's unbelievable.

And I know you like to refute that by saying that it's preposterous to think they haven't kissed when they obviously had sex in order to conceive Sarada, but the thing is, it is entirely possible to have sex with someone but not kiss. It really is. When you're having sex but you're not really enjoying it or when you have simply been pressured and pestered into having sex with a person.

This is just like the people who believe that Sasuke is gay, justifying their ridiculous claims by pointing out how "you can be gay and still marry a woman", and to that I always say - Why would Sasuke do that? Just like to you I'll say - Why would Sasuke do that? To have sex and not kiss? Why would Sasuke of all people be "pressured and pestered" into entering a relationship with someone? He obviously has no problem whatsoever with bluntly turning people down. If he doesn't want to do something, he's not gonna do it. Heck, if you're using Sakura Hiden to try and prove your points then I'll also use a novel to prove this one - The lipstick stain scene during Sasuke Shinden: The Teacher's Star Pupil, explicitly indicates that Sakura and Sasuke had kissed earlier that day. The motorbike scene during Naruto Retsuden has Sakura kiss Sasuke. Sasuke and Sakura having kissed, is not (and has never been) a topic that's open to discussion.

Sakura Hiden confirmed the fact that Sakura was determined to confess her feelings to Sasuke over and over again until he would've eventually reciprocated. She compared that with punching a villain over and over until they're defeated. Now please tell me, would it be so far fetched to consider that harassment? If someone tells you no once, you have to respect their rejection and stop pursuing them, not take it as a challenge to persist in reaffirming your feelings over and over again until they eventually get tired or take pity in you and accept to give you a chance. And even in Gaiden it was confirmed that Sakura had to chase after Sasuke.

I've already talked at length about that scene from Sakura Hiden so I won't do so again here, but I'll link the relevant post where I explained how that scene obviously was not meant to be taken as a negative comment, but people will of course just twist things in order to suit their own anti Sakura/SS agenda.

But if other people are not convinced or deny that Sasuke loves Sakura, you have to let your bias aside and admit that they have reasons to believe that. The writing makes it really easy to interpret it either way, depending on your preferences.

No, here's what people need to understand. If people think that Sasuke's love towards Sakura was not adequately shown, then that's a reason to criticise the writing. It is not however, a reason to deny what is canon. They are stating that Sasuke does not love Sakura, despite the fact that this has explicitly been stated. Sasuke loving Sakura is a canon fact, whether they like it or not. Criticise the execution all you want, I know I have plenty of times, but don't deny the truth. Hell, since you wanted to use the novels...

During Sakura Hiden, Sasuke rushed back for Sakura's sake, despite having ignored the village's prior pleas for help. What does that say about his feelings for her?

During Akatsuki Hiden, Sasuke described Sakura as "The Spring Sunshine" which illuminated his dark life. What does that say about his feelings for her?

What does basically the entirety of Sasuke Retsuden say about his feelings for her?

Many anti SS fans are always so quick to use the novels when it suits them. And then when a novel like Sasuke Retsuden comes along and completely shits over all their theories, they're just as quick to dismiss the novel as an OOC fan fic by a sub par author, figures. As far as I'm concerned, the manga is more than enough to show that Sasuke loves his family (seriously this really isn't up for debate), but I'll also definitely say that anyone who criticises SS and uses the novels as a point of reference, is in way over their heads.

[ankkalinna]

What your thoughts on the lgbt representation in dt17. As a straight person that support the lgbt I think they did alright but they were restricted by Disney. Like violet parents really didn’t have personality and just appeared in one episode. Penny should have ended with della since della is the only duck from the original trio that didn’t have a on screen kiss like Scrooge and Donald. Della have good relationship with penny. When entertainment weekly said magica going to be a lgbt icon they really didn’t do much with it except when she didn’t like it when Gladstone hold her. I don’t blame the crew since they work with Disney. Just what to hear your thoughts.

what LGBT representation nghgng This got long so

Okay so. I don’t go to a Disney show expecting to be represented I just do not trust Disney. Even when they said Violet had two dads I wasn’t sure if I should expect them to even be shown on screen.

But still, times are different from when I was a kid and there have been great leaps when it comes to representing gay and even trans experience in media and even kids’s shows

And when it comes to how DT17 handled it it’s not impressive in the year 2021 nghgn it would have maybe been acceptable ten years ago

Like I said I didn’t go in expecting anything (def not them doing anything with established characters) but I am also not going praise this piss-poor attempt and I think it’s frustrating Disney got attention for including Violet’s dads who were not characters! They didn’t even have lines!!!

Penny being a lesbian barely counts her line about not wanting to date Launchpad was so weird it wasn’t even the usual ‘I am not into men’ which fictional lesbians are allowed to say to sort of imply they are gay without using the spoopy L word. Penny and Della don’t have much of a relationship (which is a problem a lot in this show tbf) and none of it is romantically coded

Magica in the comics is much more queer than she is in the show, she is allowed to be more weird with gender lot of the time (like taking on a male form with magic tho I could say a lot overall about the representation of gender in DT17 vs the comics.... an another post perhaps) and there are even some hints at least in some comics she is into women... In the show she is made to represent homophobic family which I am :/ about but I’d be fine with it if they at least were way more explicit about the actual queer storyline in the show!!!

IMO, Lena is the best queer character in the show and she is not allowed to be explicitly so. But there is enough there that I am sure at least some people in the creative team were actively writing Lena/Webby as romantic and saw Lena’s journey as a queer narrative.

Magica is Lena’s abusive ‘biological’ parent who has a clear image of what Lena should be and tries to mold her into this image, but Lena rebels and finds a new family, she is adopted by an explicitly gay couple and loved by her friends, especially Webby. Webby/Lena is extremely easy to read as them being baby lesbians and the scene in the Night on Killmotor Hill where Webby saves Lena with her tears is the scene that made me go ‘okay this is definitely not all me reading gay into things at least some people who are making this are intending this as romantic’ because of how Webby’s tears fall on Lena’s ‘lips’ and this is the thing that saves her from Magica’s evil magic. The implication of it being a magical fairytale kiss is not an accident, animating it like that was a conscious decision someone made.

It’s very possible it wasn’t originally intended to be gay and I kinda suspect the decision was made to not write romance for any of the kid characters but it did become a thing to some extent (and was then dialed back and the finale made sure to go ‘SISTERS!!!’)

If they actually wanted to give rep and make Webby memorable, make Weblena canon tbh. You don’t even need to ship them as kids just have the same thing happen that already did happen in DT87 but replace Doofus with Lena;

they travel to the future or have a vision of future and Lena and Webby are married. There.

But of course they would have not done this. They never even had Lena’s plotline really in the show when it comes to the whole ‘becoming a part of Violet’s family’ bit. They had some references to it apparently but they were cut and Violet’s dads were not characters. I am not going to speculate on guilt and how much the creative team (or specific creators) tried to put in representation and it was all Disney stomping all over it, but COME ON. You’re telling me they managed to put Violet’s two dads in but it was totally impossible to have them speak? Have them hug their daughter and give them a few seconds of dialogue where they and their relationship to at least their daughter is characterized at all?? Maybe have them hug Violet and Lena stands there kinda awkward and they take her into the family hug and reassure her she is part of the Sabrewing family???

This show had issues with fitting everything they wanted in overall but what scenes and relationships were prioritized was a choice.

They sure had time to put in a scene in S2 where LP hits on Penny. That sure was a choice :)

I know some people expected Drakepad to be canon idk why... LP’s bisexuality is... I would not call it canon. There is one jokey implication in the show I would have been impressed by in the 90′s lmao

TLDR: I did not expect anything so I am not disappointed, not going to praise this piss-poor attempt tho

[omegawolverine]

Plesse tell me about queerness in the get down!!

okay okay queerness in the get down let's fuckn goooo

disclaimer: I havent watched this show in full for like 5 months at least, probably gonna get something wrong and/or forget some more important bits. also this wasnt proof read I just word vomited

tws: period typical homophobia, abuse mention, f slur use, bury your gays trope, overdose mention, mention of a creepy possible age gap (the age gap hasnt been confirmed so that's why its possible), cops

going from least to most prominent queer characters, let's start with mylene cruz!

so, from the beginning of this show she has an established romantic relationship with ezekiel (although the status of their actual relationship changes frequently throughout the show) and though this was a relationship she was hesitant to pursue, it is clear that she does have romantic feelings for him and if not for them both having growing careers in very different music genres (zeke specifically working in a genre that she repeatedly labels as bad because she thinks they're ruining records + that it isnt real music because they're using someone elses piece and rapping over it, that's not really important here tho lol) they probably wouldve had a much healthier, smooth sailing romance. that being said theres a few things that happen in the show that, while not explicitly clear, or even really good coding at that—to the point where you wont catch if you really arent looking for it (and trust me, I always look for coding, hers was just so little that it flew over my head until I saw someone else mention it)—are still cool to think about!

so, for starters, I wanna mention the toy box performance, which was performed by mylene and regina, who are best friends. that's all cool and shit, and you dont really think much about it...until you hear about the fact that the show runners purposely colored a lot of the scenes in that performance with the bi colors. like. the writers after the show ended basically said "oh yeah there was plans to make her coding more explicit, but our shit got cancelled soooo" and then dropped the fact that she was gonna be bi (or at least implies bi) in the series, which puts a new twist on a few things.

now, besides the bi coloring in the background of the toy box performance (which was mostly on scenes with her and regina, which involved a lot of uh,, lowkey lewd dancing. with each other. in very revealing outfits. wooooo), there's her music! I dont tend to read too much into this one bc, like I said before, her coding is fucking light and the writers themselves said they didnt really get to do much with it, but I think some stuff with her music is interesting. specifically how her, yolanda and regina's song set me free blew up because dizzee, resident (lowkey enby coded) bicon, got their song played in a queer club. also that the song was majorly important to dizzee and started playing literally right as he kissed a boy for the first time and realized "oh shit I like boys that's bonkers". also that the song can be taken in a gay way since literally the entire thing is about becoming your true self, fully and unapologetically, which is what both dizzee and mylene's entire character arcs are about. dizzee (and a lot of other queer people, apparently), heard this song about being set free and it resonated with them so much that they got that shit most of its popularity.

speaking of dizzee and mylene, they parallel each other a lot in the way that their arcs are about them realizing who they are, coming into themselves and no longer just letting people treat them like shit in a sense (dizzee starting to tell people essentially that they can call him weird all they want, they can make fun of how he acts, what he likes, how he dresses, etc. but he likes how he is and quite literally saying "it's okay to be an alien" as he has consistently compared himself to one throughout the show vs mylene learning that if she wants to be a disco singer she needs to put her foot down, not let anyone, not even the love of her life, not even her abusive father, stop her from achieving her dreams, etc. and continuing to pursue her career with or without their support). one more little parallel that I think is interesting is during I think s2 towards the end of the show is when dizzee and thor are shown together having fun with each other, painting all over the building and each other and are basically just being happy and in love together and then they have these clips of them being interspersed with clips of mylene at a party where she is starting to realize that if she wants to get anywhere she needs to be her own main priority and that she needs to put her career and her dream, which is what makes her the happiest, above all else if she wants to succeed. idk I just think how the show made these two into a weird parallel, accidental or not, is neat. maybe not an explicitly queer parallel, but I think at least how her music and whatnot helped dizzee, the main queer character in this show, blossom, is important.

moving on we got shaolin fantastic also known as "oh no your internalized homophobia is showing-"

so, heres a quick list of...interesting shao facts:

Consistently referred to as fag/faggot (shaolin fanfaggot is my personal favorite); he gets really defensive about this despite nobody actually thinking he's queer, it's just people being assholes to be assholes, and he is the only character consistently referred to using a slur, especially a homophobic one, especially for a "straight" character. dizzee, a canonically queer character, is called a fag less than shaolin is even though dizzee actively goes to gay clubs, has a not so secret dude he "hangs out with" and wont let anyone properly meet, paints his nails, wears less than straight clothes even by the 70s standards and is just all around the definition of fucking queer (and I mean like in the weird way, not the gay way). in fact theres only like once I can remember him being called a fag and it had nothing to do with him actually being gay it was literally just like thrown out there the same way you would call someone a bitch.

Has only shown sexual interest in women, yet refuses to have deeper relationships with women in general (possibly because of trauma but who knows) but takes his relationships with his "brothers", specifically zeke, very seriously

Tells zeke and zeke ONLY his real name when zeke was planning to stop being his friend bc shao more or less got boo boo, a like 14 year old black kid, arrested for selling hard drugs; he was clearly scared and trying to do anything to keep zeke around, literally chasing him down the street and hounding him until he got zeke to stop and argue with him

Kept threatening to beat up zeke in the end but couldn't actually bring himself to do so, instead saying that zeke is "fucking lucky" before walking away

Let's zeke get away with things that nobody else can, in general just has a weird soft spot for ezekiel that he shows with nobody else

when shao found dizzee with thor in a vaguely compromising situation (like they were just shirtless covered in paint sleeping next to each other but shao had also seen everything they painted on the walls ((which some of it was sus)), it was clear they had painted on each others bodies and dizzee had been routinely disappearing with this guy for weeks now yet not producing nearly as much art, at least, as far as we audience members know) he didnt judge him but instead, waited for him to get cleaned up and then told him something along the lines of "theres a reason why im so secretive blah blah blah [not everyone needs to know everything about me]", which, in context, kinda implies that he might be a lil. a lil homiesexual. jus a lil.

whenever even the possibility of zeke leaving him comes up he absolutely loses it. he has literally cost ezekiel life changing opportunities because he thought zeke would just up and leave him for them. this could be abandonment issues bc he's a severely traumatized character, and that probably does contribute to it, but it also is just not a reaction he has to any of their other friends just randomly dipping in and out of his life soooooo

generally speaking, this mfer has got either bisexual with a big hard on for zeke coding or homosexual with terrible internalized homophobia and still a hard on for zeke coding. either fucking way, that nigga gay. he gay as hell. gay as fuck man. there wasn't really much to analyze here tbh bc the coding is just so fucking obvious if you look for it or you are/have been a gay person who's dealt with at least a little bit of internalized homophobia.

also, just a sidenote, idk how fucking old shao, but I'm praying hes like at max 19 bc I'm pretty sure zeke is a minor in this show and shao definetly is not so the whole him being heavily implied to have a crush on ezekiel thing is kinda. oof. not oof if zeke is like 17 but any younger than that? OOF.

edit: apparently the characters are only supposed to be a year apart in age but i had no clue about that before writing this post and since shaos age was never actually stated in the show i naturally assumed he was an adult since his actor Looks Like An Adult. this is definetly on me to a certain extent, but i also never saw anything about this when trying to find our their ages so 🤷‍♀️ maybe i just didnt look deep enough, sorry!

now moving on to the main event...marcus dizzee kipling :]

so, first things first, let's talk enby coding bc him being bisexual was already confirmed!

um, to start off, I just wanna say I dont think this enby coding was intentional or even really coding, it's just moreso me being a dizzee kin on main and knowing as a transmasc enby he has very transmasc enby vibes. for example:

cool, gender neutral nickname that everyone calls him

paints nails various different colors

the whole wardrobe is just a transmasc enby heaven...fishnet shirts, jean overalls, jackets and cuffed pants galore, the big colorful pins, etc

gender neutral hairstyle (when I had my fro it was very sexy and made it easy to transition between hyper masc and vaguely fem, which is pog)

comparing himself to/representing himself consistently with an alien character (though this is meant to represent his sexuality, it could also double as a gender thing too, not neccesarily bc of the whole nonbinary alien trope but bc an enby who likes aliens might heavily identify or compare themselves to whatever their idea of an alien is, whether that just be a genderless entity or a motherfucker with fly style and no need to be perceived as anything other Wacky As Hell)

moving on from there, let's talk about how his queerness is presented to us and how, while it may be a really good piece of representation, especially coming from netflix, it still lacks in A Lot of places.

so, let's start with good things!

i personally really like the get down's queer rep with dizzee bc it's (for the most part) nonsexualized and very very soft, about dizzee figuring himself out and realizing there is a place where he fits in, and about two teenagers in the 70s falling in love over their shared passion for street art. it also features an interracial couple where both boys challenge stereotypes both about queer men and men of color, which is epic poggers and very sexy. this piece of rep specifically is very important to me bc I am a queer black person and even tho interracial relationships are mostly normalized now, I've still had people give me shit for primarily dating white people in a town that is...primarily white lol

mm anyways, I can also appreciate how in the get down, dizzee being represented by rumi the alien is not a thing specifically related to gender (as it often is) and instead is about his sexuality and just in general weirdness and how it has led to him being alienated amongst his peers, poc or otherwise. him seeing himself as an alien is not about just his queerness, which is important, it is about him being a queer black man who talks different, acts different, dresses different and is "soft"—he isnt a walking black male stereotype and he wouldnt have been seen as masculine back in the 70s by any stretch of the imagination. this can be relatable to a wide spectrum of queer poc, from queer black men currently who still have to deal with this shit or to people like myself who are afab neurodivergent mixed race enbies that have always been signaled out as weird and alienated for it. dizzee is god rep bc while he has a small part in this show, his parts are very impactful, hard hitting and show queer poc of all ages that they arent alone and that it's okay to "weird", you just need to embrace it because somebody will love you for you, as thor did for dizzee.

that being said theres um. some minor problemas here,,,

namely:

dizzee and thors first kiss

the lack of development this pairing got

the way dizzee was confirmed bisexual off screen, he never said the words himself, just showed interest in both genders

the way dizzee and thor were never even confirmed boyfriends or just fwb so most of the fandom just calls them boyfriends bc Why Not

dizzee was implied fucking DEAD??? AT THE END OF THE SERIES?????? AND THOR WAS IMPLIED ARRESTED?????????????

now, these might have been things that wouldve been fine had the show been given it's full run but it wasnt which is why we are now left with probelms.

so, from the top, let's go over these: dizzee and thor's first (and only "on screen") kiss was one that was shown in a montage of other queer people making over and doing other vaguely romantic/sexual things, one of those things being a whole ass naked titty being mouthed at, but the actual kiss...was just not shown? like they really did just say "yes they kissed <3 you know this from the context clues of it being in a montage with kissing, hickey giving and titty sucking <3 but no we will not show it <3" LIKE HELLO? I SAW A NAKED BOOBIE BUT NOT TWO MEN KISS??? HUH????????

also, dizzee and thor were both fucking high as hell during this bit like this isnt a terrible thing but it's also like sometimes you do shit when you're high that you wouldnt do sober and they just never kissed again on screen so like?? like idk that's not that bad but it does kinda irk me since they deadass got no other on screen intimacy after that unless you including painting on eacher other or sleeping next to each other on a shitty mattress but not touching at all during it bc they were both at opposite ends of the mattress like half way off it

so yeah, that was trash. then we got lack of development, which kinda goes with the "dizzee being a bisexual but he never says it in canon" thing cause like...okay dizzee was already sort of a side character from the get go like he wasnt the mc by any means, but he became way more of a background character as things continued until we basically only saw him for performances or when he was with thor, yet they got no fucking development as a pairing other than "dizzee realize he gay, he like thor, he and thor spend time together and ig probably do some gay stuff but we dont really know bc we only ever see them do graffiti together now" like?? tf am I supposed to do with that shit. answer. quickly. and then theres dizzee not being confirmed bisexual, which is just a running problem with shows literally doing everything to say a character is bi except for having the character just...say they're bi? which would be so easy? like a good way dizzee and thor couldve had some development is by thor teaching dizzee things about the queer community that he didnt even know existed, thor couldve helped him understand what being bi meant and helped him label himself and whatnot but instead we got an off screen confirmation that the writers had bisexual in mind when writing him. which is garbagé.

the whole thor and dizzee never having a confirmed relationship status is also a development problem cause like literally nobody knows if they were just friends who made out, maybe fucked, who knows, or if they were dating bc dizzee does give a love confession but a love confession doesn't mean there is a relationship, especially since thor didn't say he was in love either (as far as I remember, I could be wrong, plus whether or not that really happened or was apart of dizzee literally overdosing during a performance is unclear so 🤪)

and now for the biggest issue...bury your gays trope.

during the season 2 finale, dizzee and thor are chased by cops after they are found doing graffiti, one of the cops is able to catch thor while the other chases dizzee into a train tunnel and there is a train seen headed straight for him before the show cuts to black on a train horn. the show writers claim that if they had gotten another season, dizzee wouldve been alive but since they didnt and since that's essentially super fan trivia knowledge, most people dont fucking know that and instead had to watch a black queer teenager chose death over being fucking arrested by a white cop. on top of that, thor didnt see any of that shit because he was caught and the cop started hauling him off while dizzee was still being chased so thor literally has no clue where his friend/possible boyfriend fucking is or that he's likely dead in a goddamn tunnel all alone, unless you count the fucking pig that chased him in there who wouldve died too. this shows rep was so fucking good as far as most shows go on not having major fucking problems, on not being toxic and over sexualized, etc, etc. and then they just. killed a black queer teenager for no fucking reason. like it was literally the last episode ever, it would add nothing to the plot, it would just devastate fans and devastate it fucking did. I dont cry easy but seeing a character I identified with, who I had hyperfixated on, die because he'd rather that than be arrested is terrible. it fucking sucked.

so yeah. that's my all too extensive thoughts/analysis on the get down's queerness. theres definitely stuff I missed, or misinterpreted, or looked too much into, etc, etc., but this was a fun thing to spend time writing sooo yeah!! thanks for the ask anon, sorry this was just a big rambley info dump, but hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it since it took like 3 hours at least 😭😭 feel free to ask clarifying questions lol

[roublardise]

my "Crowley isn't attracted to women" take

for @spnprideweek - day 2 - mlm

cw: dicussion of homophobia & transphobia all in all I wanted to highlight how canon gay Crowley is bc I love him 💕 thank u spn for Crowley even tho he deserved better

in the last weeks I've realized there's a huuge consensus in the fandom for pansexual Crowley. if you're pan or not and wanna hc Crowley as pan, power to you! but what's bothering me is the non-discussion of it all. the way it seems obvious for everyone. whereas, to me, Crowley has been canonically gay all this time.....

disclaimer: I'm aware Mark Sheppard alledgely said he saw Crowley as pansexual, however I can't even take these words for canon without context. Especially not when a year later he'd say Crowley's sexuality didn't matter. The way Mark Sheppard talks about characters' sexuality is more a "why are people making a big deal let them be" than "the character doesn't care." Moreover, actors pov can't be taken as canon imo. Jensen Ackles thought Dean straight for so long when Dean's been bi all this time as well. Sometimes actors are biased by their own experiences & stereotypes!

disclaimer #2: on god I don't wanna start discourse lmao. I just wanna share my silly thoughts about a tv show & question the way Crowley's sexuality is written in this silly homophobic tv show. don't @ me about what's making you think Crowley is indisputably pansexual bc I assure you I already know your points

That being said, here's why I think Crowley is a bear, a gay man, a trans gay man actually, a homosexual, who isn't attracted to women & some food for thoughts about why the unquestioned consensus towards pan Crowley could have roots in both homophobia & panphobia.

I don't think we can think of Crowley as your usual demon. We know too much about Crowley's life as a human, and the numerous ways in which he acts un-demony, almost humanly after. Considering him simply like a demon with no concept of gender preference who would be pan “by default” wouldn’t be right with his character. But we also can't question his sexuality in the exact same way we would a human's.

It also can't be thought in the same way as angels': as once-humans demons do have a concept of gender. Crowley especially cares a lot about his gender presentation and the way he's addressed. Not only does he literally sell his soul for a bigger d*ck as a human ; as a demon he uses the same vessel where other demons are shown to move once they had to leave one ; and for the few hours Crowley's possessing a woman, he clearly states he should still be referred to as king.

This will all be used for homophobic & transphobic jokes in the show, but I'll get back to that later on. Gender does matter to Crowley's identity, and I think it could be extended to his sexuality.

I've seen numerous descriptions of it all saying Crowley's sexuality was "ambiguous" and I guess it is, as he never explicitly used any label. However "ambiguous" doesn't mean bi or pan. It doesn't mean anything besides the fact we can't draw a clear-cut conclusion of his sexuality.

Imo we can actually draw a clear-cut conclusion of Crowley's sexuality but yeh, I'm getting there.

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Let's take a look at canon events around Crowley & sexuality!

His character introduction is him enjoying making a homophobe man kiss him for a deal

It is rumoured that he was a demon's lover (Lilith's)

He heavily flirts with Bobby

He french kisses Bobby for a deal and takes a pic

He never kisses a woman on screen (tell me if I forgot anyone!)

He flirts with every single man he sees, and even more strongly when it's making the other uncomfortable

The other parent of Crowley's son is never mentioned nor even brought up

He has two orgies that we know of

He has sex with a demon who's possessing a woman (Lola) when he was addicted to human blood

He dates, has sex with, and asks Dean to rule Hell with him. He's in love with Dean

On late spn he drinks fruity drinks

He flirts with and implies he had sex with an angel (Naomi)

He flirts with Death (Billie)

He's into BDSM

I'm not gonna go into details with all the sexual stuff he says bc there's a lot.... But it's always about gay sex. (once again, if I'm forgetting smth pls tell me nicely)

Now, with all that I'd like to question specifically the elements people use to say Crowley is canonically attracted to women.

He has two orgies that we know of

There’s the one Crowley has while he’s himself possessing a woman ; iirc it’s a foursome with two other men and one woman. Crowley still counts as a King, as the show makes sure we know, admitedly this dialogue implies we should still think of him as a not-very-manly-man.

Honestly, if one is convinced Crowley is attracted to women based on this scene.. okay. Personally I don’t see it because the orgy is unplanned, it’s an opportunity Crowley takes. Is he even attracted to the two other men?? Who knows. We don’t even know if Crowley even touches the other woman, there’re so many ways to have group sex. Even if he did, having sex with one woman doesn’t make it impossible for him to be homosexual.

The second orgy is with Dean. Crowley describes it then: “We've done extraordinary things to triplets.” It’s interesting how before I went to check, I thought it was clear the triplets were women. But not at all! I’ve been tricked by heteronormativity myself. So this is up to interpretation. Even though the way the show doesn’t make sure we know the triplets were women is pretty telling (as I’ll talk about later).

It is rumoured that he was Lilith's lover

Well, this is a rumour. In this relationship Crowley would know Lilith as a demon possessing a woman, and Lilith would know Crowley as a demon possessing a man as well. Who's even to say they met in their vessels to sleep together. That's the kind of cases in which the ambiguity of Crowley human/demon situation makes it impossible to draw any kind of conclusion towards Crowley's attraction to women. Also if anything Lilith is clearly a lesbian lmao.

He has sex with Lola when he was addicted to human blood

Same thing here, the relationship is one of demon/demon. Though we do now they do meet in their vessels to sleep together. Besides that, the sex happens while Crowley is at a low point. She's the one bringing him human blood, which makes the sex more of a transaction than anything. It does fit a very grey area of consent which would be fair to question.

We can't know for sure whether the demon possessing the woman was a woman as well, but let's say she was: 1/ Crowley having sex once or twice with a woman doesn't prevent him from being homosexual. 2/ What is he seeing if not a demon's true form? 3/ Wasn't he in a self-destructive mental state?

It's a stretch, imo, to assume Crowley was attracted to her.

He flirts with and had sex with Naomi / flirts with Billie

This one is so ridiculous to me bc Naomi is an angel and as a demon, Crowley sees her true form. We don't even know who was her vessel when they had sex.

The flirt thing is interesting however, bc iirc Naomi and Billie are the only "women" we see Crowley actually flirt with. During the orgies or the demon sex there's no flirt involved. It's interesting bc, as Cas would say: "Naomi's vessel is a woman. Naomi is an angel."

Same case for Billie who's a reaper then Death. Spn is pretty unclear about how the whole thing works but we know reapers are kind of angels. In any case, I won't go as far as saying Billie has any connection to gender.

Moreover, the way Crowley flirts with them is pretty light next to everything else Crowley says to men. It's pretty personal, I'm aware, but I do relate a lot with the way Crowley flirts with them VS how I flirt with men just because (and I'm a lesbian).

Anyway! Both Naomi and Billie are supernatural creatures, which brings the count of women Crowley flirts with to... zero.

-> What I take from all that is that Crowley is attracted to men for sure ; to angels and demons ; and doesn't care about the genitalia involved in the sex he has. We have nothing about the kind of relationships he had as a human. His gender presentation matters a lot to him. The only long-term commitment he has is with Dean. I wouldn't even say he had a committed relationship with Gavin's other parent bc we don't know anything about them.

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But what's my deal with homosexual Crowley? One can wonder, if Crowley doesn't care about bodies, doesn't that mean he can still be written as pan?

No! First because sexual attraction isn't about genitalia (even if transphobes would argue the contrary but they're transphobic so...). And second, well....

I would refer to this point as "how do I know Crowley isn't attracted to women? bc Dean is"

I'm convinced that if the show wanted to write Crowley as anything other than a gay man, it would have been way more obvious.

This is a show who wrote Dean catcalling a faceless woman on the street, for no other reason than to remind the viewers Dean was attracted to women & to balance it with the following homoerotic scene.

One could say spn doesn't have lots of women characters to begin with, but that's my point exactly: when spn wants to show attraction towards women, they do find women for people to be attracted to. Hell, they even give Gavin some girlfriend but never ever bring up the topic of Gavin's other parent. Even though an entire episode is dedicated to learning about Crowley's past.

What's important to understand Crowley's sexuality isn't the people he slept with ; it's the people he doesn't show interest in.

The absence of something is the presence of the thing, blablabla. It's a way to look at homosexuality that heteronormativity makes hard to see because, unconciously, we don't tend to question attraction towards the expected gender. One would ask for a 10 pages essay on why a character is gay, but one would need only a 2 sec kiss to assure a character's heterosexuality or attraction towards the expected gender.

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In Crowley's case, his attraction to men is a huge part of his character right from the beginning (thanks god, at least no one's questioning that). Spn as a show that hears what the fans are saying and twists writing accordingly, is perfectly aware of that. Yet rather than pushing women at him along the course of the show to remind everyone how Not Gay Crowley is - the opposite happens.

Yeh, Lola, Naomi, Billie, they all happen in the later seasons. But even then, the show somehow can't write Crowley as attracted to a human woman.

What happens then is: not only does Crowley fall for Dean ; he engages in some BDSM play with Lucifer : and he switches from drinking only the finest Scotch to fruity cocktails.

The BDSM thing as well as the drink thing are choices rooted in stereotypes, that's how spn is! But it does canonize Crowley's homosexuality. They're depriving him of his "masculinity" as the show goes on, because they purposely write him as homosexual. I don't think spn would have ever written a bi or pan character that way.

We learned a few days ago that Crowley died in a gutter. He died in a gutter for a bigger d*ck. I'm just gonna refer to Oscar Wilde & Mika on this : "some of us in the gutter are looking up at the stars."

The "referred to as king" scene isn't about Crowley being a demon and so not caring about gender - it's the opposite. Other demons are the ones poiting out Crowley's vessel. This is a transphobic joke. It's the demon edition of the "gay boy in a dress" transmisogynistic trope.

Viewers aren't supposed to be on Crowley's side ; we're supposed to be giggling with the other demons while Crowley is being emasculated. Crowley gets a woman vessel because he's a not-very-manly-man, because he's a trans man, because he's homosexual.

And I know that bc Dean is written as bi, and all they're doing is reaffirming the way he does like women while being extra subtle with his love for men.

Meanwhile Crowley is losing influence and power, loses his authority as he loses his throne in Hell, gets humiliated by Lucifer, until all his character revolves around is his love for Dean. The way Crowley is then protrayed as some lovesick ex who can't move on is, imo, a straight man fantasy. Crowley's love is both used as predatory and as a tool to validate Dean's Peak Masculinity.

Spn has been burying their gays all along, and Crowley was right there being punished for not only being in love with Dean but for not being attracted to women. For never being able to be a "normal" guy. For never being able to be seen as a "normal" guy. For checking every homophobic stereotypes in the books. Crowley as a human dies because he's a trans man. Crowley as a demon dies because he's homosexual.

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That's what leads me to be uncomfortable with the way the fandom seems to have a consensus towards pansexual Crowley. (Once again: idc about people's personal hc of Crowley as pan, I just want to think critically about the way no one thinks twice about it & accepts it as canon so easily. Hell, just bc I dared to ask what started the pan Crowley confirmation I got accused of erasing his pansexuality. All I did was ask a question.)

To me, it feels like erasing everything his character went through because he was gay. And it seems to be taken from a reasoning which is going to assume Crowley is attracted to women.

I mean: the reasoning would go "oh, Crowley clearly has a non-straight sexuality -> he's attracted to men -> he's pan" His attraction to women being accepted by default, without needing any backup. And when I look at the canon I see nothing implying he'd be attracted to women. Taking Crowley's attraction to women for granted is following an heteronormative thinking.

Being into people isn't all about who one sleeps with. It's about love. And when we look at what spn shows about Crowley's close relationships, the only meaningful one he got is with Dean. When Rowena wants payback for Crowley making her kill Oskar, she goes for his son.

And it's SO interesting to me because if angels can't be in love because they don't have a soul - can demons? as they're beings with a destroyed soul? And if so, how powerful of Crowley to still fall in love with Dean Winchester.... the power of gay love :) (Crowley 🤝 Cas)

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To conclude all this with some more stuff to think about if, like me, you love questioning everything:

While it's not wrong per se to hc Crowley as pan, it can be worth questioning what's making us so sure we collectively just vibe with it? To me there's a few things: - As I was saying: heteronormative bias - Crowley being a non-fully-human character - Crowley being masculine (despite the show's attempts to erase that) - Crowley being into BDSM - Crowley flirting and making sexual remarks in every context

These, unconsciously, gives a vibe of a character who's "outside" of the gender norm, not making big deal of their sexuality, not even questioning it. This creates this idea of "ambiguity" around Crowley's sexuality. The way Crowley particularly seems to be really chill about sex, is a demon (so what does he know about gender?), and heavily flirty, ... is what most people will link to pansexuality. That doesn't mean thinking of Crowley as pan is being problematic™ ; this means in western medias that's what fills the "pansexual character" imagery (like basically: the Jack Harkness type).

However, when we look at it like that, none of these elements are defining of pansexuality. None of them are excluding him from homosexuality. If not stereotypes.

That's where it gets personal ; but it does make me feel like the huge consensus towards a pansexual Crowley (when there is no clear-cut evidence of it) is erasing the complexity of homosexual experiences. As I said at the begining: I'm happy if pansexual people can relate to Crowley ; everone's free to headcanon. But saying Crowley is canonically pansexual is a stretch - and a take rooted in homophobic stereotypes.

Imo Crowley may have been created with all these traits pushing towards a pan reading of his character. However, as the show went, he was clearly written as a homosexual man. The changes in his portrayal took a turn to be specifically homophobic. He gets imagery that only strictly homosexual characters got (such as drinking fruity cocktails like Aaron. Meanwhile Dean, on the same scene, is allowed beer & whiskey.)

We're used to taking spn's homophobic rep and jokes to make it our own. Yet it seems, when it comes to Crowley, the fandom doesn't see it.

Sometimes people aren't attracted to the gender heteronormativity expects them to be attracted to.......... sometimes people are gay and it's not an umbrella term.