#I found the anti anti sjm blog can you tell

[for-sorscha]

Pro SJM as a ‘Fandom’

*cue ridiculous comparison to Nazis* The problem is when this penetrates outside of their group. People who don't like SJM are made to feel like total garbage just for not liking something. Look at those Pro SJM warriors, fighting the good fight. Not realizing the homophobia and racism which are in the books. Not taking into account these books are not perfect. This is one of the key problems with the movement. It does not improve anything. It is far, far more toxic than the anti SJM fandom, because they don't realize the offensive tendencies in the books and that it affects people. Gay people, POC and disabled people all feel left out a misrepresented in these books. They don't realize that most anti sjm people are trying to advocate for people's rights. All Anti SJM posts do is call out what's wrong with these books and the unhealthiness of it since the things people learn from this book series translates into real life. It's not isolated. Sure, we are ‘anti’ a fucking book series. But when a book series has toxic characters, crappy world-building and little representation with young fans who are very impressionable then yeah let people criticize it. This criticism centers around the hope of improving the thing, learning from the thing, and finding ways to enjoy the thing despite it’s issues without ignoring them. Anti SJM is a place people gather to share their hate of something. Which is fine. Sure, antis bitch about this series because so many young teenagers are reading it and being affected by it.

Anti SJM people need to keep doing what they're doing. I’m all for advocating for people’s rights and raising awareness of abuse, and that's why it's important that we do in a fandom for such a popular, toxic book series. In order to help abuse survivors in some way you can't just turn a blind eye to the abusive behaviour in a books series.

The Anti SJM Group is not isolated from the toxicity of the hate and the fandom, which means there are people who may go too far or whatever. But that happens in every fandom, even the pro sjm fandom, yeah trust me I've seen it. Spoiler alert: Most antis are not criticizing people themselves. I would NEVER personally call out someone for liking the books AND although some antis may take it too far most of us do enjoy aspects of the books and are not the hateful, spiteful people you make us out to be. We want people to be able to express our opinions about these books with comfort, in the proper tags of course. I have never seen a post saying "SJM STANS ARE TOXIC AND HERES WHY GET A LIFE YOU LOSERS" meanwhile there have been such posts like those for antis and don't you think that's a little *whispers* problematic Also stay out of the anti sjm tag if you don't want to see hate AND don't use that tag for your pro posts to make people feel bad. And side note: I don't hate Pro-Sjm people or Anti-Sjm people, we all have different opinions. Feel free to like something. Feel free to hate something. Just don't call out people for doing either. See how ridiculous this post is now that I switched the perspective. Imagine the rioting that would happen if I posted this is the pro sjm tags.

[dreaminginvelaris]

Do you feel that people loved Nesta more or hated her after acosf? Personally, I still don't like her. I found your justifications weak and contradictory. For example, did she ardently want her father to do something but she didn't recognize that he had a leg problem that prevented him from walking properly? And that's why you were horrible to Feyre? I am in love with Cassian and hated that he was turned into a sex therapist. I hated that he was turned into a secondary in his own book. I hated that it was always all about Nesta, even when Cassian shared her life story, it was about Nesta, to encourage her. I hated that Feyre had to die to know she was loved by her abusive sister. I hated the monsters and the whole narrative always sexualizing Nesta. I hated all the nonsensical developments Sarah threw in this book. I love her blog and would like to know her opinion. Mine is that the book didn't help me to like Nesta, although I admit she's in a better place now.

tbh im not sure, i've seen both sides to that question. i'll be honest, when i was done reading acosf i did for a moment love nesta until i realized nothing actually changed within her and she was still a horrible person lol.

Nesta defs wanted her father to do something despite his leg problem (which she actively does know about considering for fun nesta would move his cane out of his reach) but the thing is, even their father did something, as minor as it was, he did make those stupid wood carvings and tried to sell them so like its so funny bc at the end he still did more than nesta. (this is not me praising the dad, he can go fuck himself wherever he is in the afterlife)

she was horrible to feyre simply bc she was mad feyre did what their father was supposed to do and was mad that feyre wasnt willing to let their family starve out of pettiness the way nesta was oh so ready.

same here, i loved cassian, but acosf just, he was a secondary character when it was supposed to be about them both. i wanted to learn his history and who he truly was away from feyre's pov. but the only thing we got to know about him was that he thinks nesta's ass looks sexy in illyrian pants and that his dick is huge. (like we didnt already know that? hello all 3 batboys have huge dicks, tell me something i dont know).

Cassian in the end was only a sex buddy, therapist, and trainer. and its absolutely depressing.

Omg feyre dying for her to know nesta loved her was absolutely shitty considering nesta didnt even intend for feyre to hear her declaration. like miss girl after everything feyre did for you for years, her dying was the only way you could admit you loved her? get help, and no cassians cock is not help.

I agree with you, the book didnt help me like her either, in fact it just made me loathe her even more bc its not like she had any actual character development, besides everything anti-nestas have said these past years were confirmed by sjm and nesta herself. the whole book nesta just whined that everyone chose feyre over her (obviously though feyre is better than you tf) and that she was so mean but couldn't help it, like bitch no. her excuses were garbage and im pissed that no one else did a better job at telling her like it is, instead they coddled her like shes always been.

Shes in a better place now sure, but i personally think she does not deserve it and should have gone through more development and groveling to get to that point bc she did not deserve all the help feyre threw at her.

[propshophannah]

Hi, so I’m not super sure what I’m trying to say but I’m feeling down abt some manorian posts I saw. It’s prob really dumb but I get like upset/sad when blogs I like a lot love everything SJM but then say they’re anti one of her ships. I’ve criticized SJM’s writing & there r ships I don’t particularly like...but I’d never say I was anti one of her ships? Idk. Maybe I’m just confused/sad abt why ppl who love SJM choose that word when it carries a lot of baggage in fandoms. idk. I was just 1/2

feeling kinda sad about it. I also saw ppl I respect a lot saying manorian isn’t a ship cuz they don’t say I love you/show PDA/only have sex. I was just…really hurt by that? It felt like they were saying ppl had to act a certain way for their feelings or relationships to be valid. I don’t think they meant to be offensive(?) they just didn’t realize they were marginalizing a lot of ppl & cultures that show affection differently. idk. It made me really sad & I’m not sure what to do. 2/2

—

Hi Nonnie, I’m sorry it took me so long to get to this ask and I’m sorry you’re feeling sad and confused. I want you to know that what you’ve brought up here is not dumb. Your feelings are valid and important! I’ll try to address your ask as best I can.

About fandom use of the term anti.

You are not alone in finding this odd or discouraging. I’ve seen stuff like this from time to time on “pro” blogs and found myself thinking the same exact thing. I’ve had a lot of conversations with people about it, too. It does seem like there could be a better way to phrase ship criticism or dislike of something other than to use the word anti because you’re right, it does carry a lot of baggage.

To play the devil’s advocate, I think it’s really important to remember that context is key. Just because a fandom blog you love says they’re “anti” something doesn’t mean they’re using the term in the same way Official Anti Blogs use it. (As I write this, I’m wondering if I’ve ever used it to express dislike, not realizing how it could come across!) It could be a joke you’re not in on, or phrasing used because the blogger was rage posting (we’ve all been there) and that was the phrase that validated their feelings in that moment, or it could be that they used that phrase without thinking about how it might come off to their followers.

Have you tried asking the blogger about it? Maybe just send a quick note about how it made you feel. They might not realize how it comes off. This could give you an opportunity to feel as though you’ve been heard and it would allow the blogger the opportunity to explain why they chose that phrase. I think you should ask them, Nonnie! Just because there are a lot of reasons someone might choose that phrase that don’t necessarily mean they are against SJM, or only pro the things they like about her writing and against everything else.

Now that’s not to say that a blog can’t be pro SJM and still be anti something about her books or (as you said) criticize her work. And if that’s the phrase they choose to use then there isn’t much we can do about it. We can’t change other people, but we can change ourselves. So maybe, you don’t follow that blog anymore, or you remind yourself that they’re still a great blog, but one you disagree with on word choice and topics.

About PDA and relationship validation.

I actually love that you brought this up because this is a conversation I’ve been having a LOT lately. There have been a handful of posts or comments on posts lately where things like PDA etc. were used to lessen or invalidate Manon and Dorian’s relationship and it just left an icky feeling with a lot of people.

I should be VERY clear here. I DO NOT think the people who use PDA as an argument for invalidating a ship realize they’re marginalizing people, or are being offensive when they do this. I think it’s more that they’ve just never been in a position where they were asked to think about it that way. The normative category is by definition ignorant of itself, right? Like, even I had a hard time figuring out why some of these arguments left a bad taste in my mouth, and it wasn’t until after I’d talked to a few people that I was able to really figure it out.

But you’re right! Not everyone expresses affection by exhibiting normative displays of romantic love (such as hand holding, cuddling, kissing etc.). Some people aren’t capable of those things, don’t like those things, or they just choose to express affection differently (maybe by validating someone’s feelings, keeping them safe, being present, providing for them in small ways like making dinner or folding their person’s laundry etc.).

And I think the best/most relevant point you make, is that some people don’t come from cultures that normalize PDA. Western cultures show affection VERY differently than Eastern cultures.

Recently I watched a CNN special on Japan that talked a lot about this idea of “sexlessness” and how culturally the Japanese don’t show a lot of affection, specifically touch affection (hugs, kisses, hand holding after marriage etc.). It was fascinating and I’d argue that the idea of cultural differences TOTALLY APPLIES to the Ironteeth in ToG. We don’t know a lot about their culture, but we do know that affection in any form is frowned upon and discouraged. So if we consider how Manon grew up thinking she was incapable of love/displaying loving or kind emotions (and subsequently beaten/abused for displayed them) it’s not hard at all to see how it would take her a lot of time (and deprogramming) to be able to show and express those kinds of emotions.

This is her ENTIRE character arc, right? From the very moment she appeared on page, she told us how heartless she was, while simultaneously showing us how heartless she was not. (I mean, helloOoOo Abraxos!) Her first “I love you” always belonged to him. But she didn’t need to say it for us to know she loved him. It was there the whole time in her actions. Same with the Thirteen. Manon loved them dearly. They were her sisters, her family. And just because she never told them “I love you” doesn’t mean she didn’t love them. I have plenty of friends whom I love very deeply who I’ve never said I love you to. I likewise have lots of friends who I have said it to. Also, it’s easier to tell a pet/animal that we love them rather than risk saying it to a person, right? Animals aren’t going to judge or reject you—or even verbally respond. Therefore, it’s a low risk endeavor. (Not to say I think this is the only reason she said it to Abraxos!)

My partner and I are not into PDA. At all. Sometimes, if we’re in a group of close friends or family I may be more into showing touch affection, but usually we save those moments for private. There have been MANY times when we’ve been out and people have hit on my partner because they honestly don’t know we’re together. And I don’t get mad/jealous or physically stake a claim or anything when this happens. I let my partner handle it. We just aren’t into sharing our intimate moments with other people. It’s for us only.

So I totally understand how an argument based on PDA can be really hurtful or potentially offensive. Especially when the argument ignores the great moments of communication we get with manorian. As if communication is less important to relationships than PDA…

I also see nothing wrong with casual sex, though I don’t see manorian as having had casual sex (even before the “stay” scene where they clearly did more than just sex). I think they both talk a big game about how the sex didn’t mean anything, but if that were true then why wouldn’t Dorian pursue Vesta? Why would the idea of Dorian with another person make Manon jealous? I feel like they both wanted to pretend like The Sex didn’t mean anything, but I read two people, who weren’t able to verbalize their feelings for one another, finding a shared safe space that was free of responsibilities and the horrors of war where they could be with one another and express their feelings the only way they could at that moment in time. (Which is another reason the “stay” scene stands out.)

TL;DR

A good friend of mine is not monogamous at all. She’s in a relationship with a married man (who’s in an open relationship with his wife). They’re bf and gf and she tells me how they say I love you to one another, take trips together, have AMAZING sex, he writes her the most beautiful love letters, they go on dates—they do EVERYTHING couples do. Except he’s married and they’re both sleeping with other people.

And sometimes it’s HARD for me to figure out where to put this in my brain because I grew up with a specific set of parameters that defined what a relationship was supposed to look like. Sometimes I get confused about how he also loves his wife, sometimes I get confused about how my friend knows their relationship is real. Like it’s hard because it challenges societal expectations of what relationships look like.

I think that happens sometimes with ships in books—or with anything in life that we don’t understand. When something is different than what we expect or are used to, it can kind of…blind us to what’s there. If it still bothers you, Nonnie, you could try explaining your side to these people and start a dialogue? It might actually be really helpful for you and them! Give it a try and let me know!

[battlestar-royco]

(1) Hello! First off, I'm not an anti (neither stan) but I enjoy reading anti blogs mostly because they're the only place where I can actually read criticism (and sometimes constructive) towards sjm's books. The only thing I don't really like about them is the treatment of some characters... Like I understand Alien is a perfect snowflake with really problematic traits, but when she does something right or it's actually blamed by the narrative that's just ignored or credited to a "slip" by sjm.

(2) And it can apply to the inverse. D/orian is a cute puppy but if he does a horrible thing that’s sjm ruining the character so we are gonna ignore it and pretend it never happened. Like, I also get angry by some twists sjm has done to some of my fav charas (like m/anon’s in e0s), but I think sometimes antis treat characters unfairly just because they’re not their faves (and I mean, it’s ok to not like those characters! But blame on them what your faves also do is kinda hypocrite).

Welcome to the stanti club :) I won’t speak for all antis, but I certainly fall into the habit of loving a character who is disproportionately hated in order to compensate for that hate. I do that in all my fandoms (namely with Finn and Poe from Star Wars and Sansa from AS0IAF/G0T because they get soooooo unfairly hated and it really doesn’t help that they’re respectively the token MOC and an extremely feminine girly girl!!!!!!!!). Also, we try our best to hold everyone accountable for all they’ve done, especially because SJ/M and stans only do so for certain characters while Failsand and Ratalien tend to get off scot free. For example, no one tries to pretend that N/esta wasn’t abusive to Faerug or that Man0n isn’t a murderous, man-eating witch. That said, we definitely favor the non-central characters/the ones we identify with, and it probably appears like we are really harsh on certain characters. But that’s because otherwise no one critiques anything they’ve done, even if it’s just as bad or worse than what secondary characters have done. Also, a lot of things the side characters do is framed as terrible simply because it disservices Ratalien or Failsand, even if it makes sense for the character to act that way. For example, L/ucien is considered a bad friend to Faerug for not leaving Tom Lane and not saving her from the SC while Faerug fails to recognize he was also being victimized by Tom’s abusive behavior. M0r is angry at Rice for giving V/elaris to Keir even though the city was supposedly under her jurisdiction, but Rice is in the right because all his decisions are for the greater good. Darrow tells Alien she isn’t ready to be a queen because she has literally zero training, but he’s one of the most hated minor characters in T0G. N/esta doesn’t want to be friends with the IC because they exclude the hell out of her and they’re really toxic, but they kick her out of V/elaris without consulting her because they dislike her so much. C/haol was marginally involved in N/ehemia’s death but Alien straight up tried to kill D0rian. And the list goes on.

At this point I dislike Faerug, Rice, R0wan, and Alien so much and they feel more like hollow outlines than real characters to me, so it’s just not my instinct to praise them for the good things they’ve done anymore. I will say that I really enjoyed Celery’s character from TAB-H0F, and I loved that her arrogance both helped her succeed and fail, but now that her flaw has been erased/not acknowledged by the narrative, I can’t really appreciate her. I’ve also personally never found Faerug likable or compelling. So yeah, antis do get caught up in liking/supporting certain characters over others, but that’s because we’re taking into account the fandom and the narrative. And I think we’d all be open to discussing the flaws in the characters we like, because that’s part of why we like them, but if the flaw in question was due to bad writing on SJ/M’s part, we would probably call that out as well. So please if you want to discuss the bad parts of anti-adopted characters, you’re welcome to come to my inbox! I can’t guarantee I’ll agree or anything, but I’m open to discussing the bad and good parts of all characters whether I like them or not.

[nestavipers]

🎅 Santa here 😋 bingeing the books is the best way to read them! I’m glad you made it past book one and through the series! I found the books through my library the summer before this last one, when a lot of stuff was still shut down where I live because of COVID. I went through all three books in like a week (because I had no life then) and then anxiously anticipated acosf, which I binge read in basically a day and a half when it came out! I actually quite liked acotar and even Tamlin, but I really loved the way sjm flipped the story and all the character development in acomaf!

Okay, so I’m assuming then that you read acosf—and you don’t sound like you’re a fan of the inner circle. So I have to ask, because I have no friends who’ve read acotar and I can rant to about this—what did you think of Amren in acosf? I was SO MAD at how she treated Nesta in the book and the way it all ended with Nesta apologizing (I’m really hoping you’ve read it and I’m not spoiling stuff for you, I’m trying to be sort of vague to make sure I don’t 🤣)

ALSO. Elucien—any predictions or hopes for future books? OH, or hopes for the new Crescent City book, since mention of it popped up on your blog? I’m so excited to see what happens next!

Sorry if this ask is too long or I ask too many questions, feel free to ignore any of it or tell me I talk too much, if you want to 🙃

honestly THANK GOD FOR LIBRARIES but ESPECIALLY during covid because i basically did nothing but read ebooks for like a year straight when we were all in lockdown.

That must have been so exciting to get to read ACOSF as soon as it came out though! I'm a bit sad I joined the fandom after a lot of the hype has gone away (until we get the next character POV reveal at least) but I'm also thrilled I got to dive right into Nesta's book immediately after finishing the original series.

Okay so I'm not anti IC per se, I'm more IC critical if that makes sense. I'm still mad at Mor and think she should have given Nesta a proper apology, I wanted to fight Rhys when he threatened to kill Nesta for the 'crime' of telling her own sister the truth about something huge that he never should have hidden from HIS MATE in the first place???? But yeah, the Amren stuff really takes the cake. I never particularly liked her and that absolutely has not improved since ACOSF. Let's not even get into the horror-show that was that 'intervention'.

I recently did a full series reread (minus the first book I just cannot put myself through reading that again even though I do love Lucien to pieces hahaha) and the rage I felt at the way everyone treated Nesta in the hallmark christmas special holiday novella was overwhelming.

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that I 100% agree with you and I have enjoyed reading the fix-it fics that the nesta stan side of the fandom has been blessing us with.

On the elucien front, I don't have any major theories, I'm really just along for the ride and prepared to be surprised by whatever SJM has up her sleeve! I've enjoyed reading through some of her quotes from old interviews about Elain and Lucien and their potential. What about you? I know the great ship war of the fandom is elain-centric so are there are theories/hopes that you have for her plotline?

Okay re: CC I adore Ruhn, I desperately want to see more sibling shenanigans with him and Bryce, I want to see their awful father get some karmic payback, and I am really hoping SJM doesn't pull a Chaol/Tamlin with Hunt (seeing him on the cover of book 2 is a good sign though I think). Are a fan of Bryce/Hunt or are you hoping for a new love interest to show up on the scene in book 2?

No need to apologize AT ALL, it's been such a pleasure talking with you! I also don't have any friends I can really talk about the series with IRL because none of them have read past ACOWAR and all I want to do is talk about nessian lmao.

[la-knight]

I decided to brave the ACOFAS tag my highlights were when did Nesta get raped? that was one thing that stood out for me the other was "how Feyre pushed Nesta to go to the solstice party and then didn't even get her a present" and an account with the weird tag line thingy (you under the blog name?) with that being Mor is a lesbian but anyway I love it when the tumblr blacklist thing lets things through oh wait... it doesn't work if things aren't tagged properly... so I'm going to take a break.

oh I forgot one “Feyre and Rhys are treating Nesta the same way Feyre was treated by Tamlin”

Okay, this was a little hard to follow. I can’t tell if you’re just venting to me (which is fine) or if you somehow think this is my fault. If you’re venting, I feel you. I can’t blacklist things because I’m on Tumblr mobile and it’s a glitchy bitch (and not in a fun way like Vanellope von Schweetz).

But if you’re saying that I’m somehow responsible for this stuff popping up in your feed despite your blacklisting, I’m not. I tag all my ACOFAS posts accordingly, with “acofas” and “acofas spoilers” and whatever else is relevant. I don’t do the anti thing because I’m not anti, I don’t hate on things just for shits and giggles (although only about 50% of the SJM antis I know of do that; the rest have valid critiques and call themselves antis but they’re really just people with common sense. Anyway, I’m digressing). So if you blacklisted something with “anti” in the tag, yeah, you’re going to see my stuff anyway because I don’t do bashing, I do well-rounded critiques. I’ve even extolled what few virtues Tamlin has on here.

Now, I never said Nesta gets raped (apparently she was assaulted in the series but I must have missed or forgotten that part). Someone ELSE said Rhys goes Amarantha on Nesta and I pointed out Amarantha was a rapist and comparing her to Rhys doesn’t make sense.I

I’m also one of the people who don’t think Feyre is doing anything morally wrong with how she’s treating Nesta. There’s some stuff that isn’t working (I’ve ranted about how no one in this series knows how to treat mental illness or create therapy centers, etc) but I didn’t snipe about Feyre’s treatment of Nesta. So that wasn’t me either.

I also don’t agree Feyre and Rhysand are treating Nesta like Tamlin treated Feyre. That wasn’t me either.

I tagged my shit appropriately. If you found a reblog that didn’t tag, that’s not my fault, although I’m sorry someone did that since it obviously is causing issues. But in that instance, I’m not culpable. And if you disagree with my tagging system, I’m sorry, but my system is MY system. Anyone is perfectly free to block me if they want to, but as far as I can tell, I’m tagging the way I’m supposed to.

Although this is like the fifth time in the last week someone mentioned “going into the tags” - is that something people do? Is that how people use Tumblr? Like, I follow people, not tags? When I started on here, I followed 3 people, and saw things they posted or reblogged from other people, and in some instances followed those other people, and on and on and on. I don’t go searching in the tags. Is that how other people find blogs?

[jamesscarstairs]

i find it really funny how sjm stans like you refuse to acknowledge the hyper toxic masculinity of these books and utter lack of lgbtq+ ships and poc representation, blatantly ignore the fact that rowan punches aelin and constantly tells her she's worthless when she suffers depression, ignore or justify rhys DRUGGING feyre, and then have the audacity to roll your eyes at a group of people who actually point these things out and state how wrong these things are.

I, by no means ignore any of these things. I know there are lots of problems with these books.No, I have never made posts about any of these things, because I'm terrible at talking about it, I don't feel "qualified" to talk about these issues. No matter what I say, there will always be someone who will pick it apart and accuse me of something negative. I know that the lack of poc and lgbtq+ characters in these books is a huge problem, and it's infuriating that there is a huge lack of diversity.And the whole Rowan and Rhys abuse thing, I honestly don't know what I can say about those problems - I didn't write these books. I don't get to choose what happens, and that counts for every fan of these books who are targeted and called racist or homophobic or every other name under the sun for liking these books. I can't help that I've fallen in love with the worlds SJM has created, or the characters or her writing.The only time I have ever talked about blogs dedicated to anti-sjm posts, is when I have found it ridiculous that they spend their time hating on something when they could be talking about something they love. Not once have I disagreed with them, I have always seen their points as valid, yes there isn't diversity in these books and it's a huge problem. But do not blame me, or any other member of this fandom for these issues.